In this episode of the Thrifty Titans Podcast, we have an engaging conversation with Anshuman Das, co-founder & CEO of Careernet, a prominent talent solutions firm with an impressive two-decade-long history of providing talent for over 500 high-growth startups, Fortune 500 companies and numerous MNCs such as Walmart, Intel, Amazon, Samsung, Myntra, Coca Cola, Reliance and many more.
We delve into the reasons behind the Great Resignation in India, income inequality in emerging economies like India, the evolving landscape of remote work within the country's context, the shifting dynamics of talent acquisition through Careernet's expertise and other pressing issues relevant to today's modern worker and entrepreneur.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. I'm sale marketer Creative and all around Alpha nerd.
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Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the you incorporated podcast On this show, I
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Saikat Pyne: catch up with bad ass entrepreneurs, marketers, storytellers and content
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Saikat Pyne: creators to understand how they built their personal brands, their
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Saikat Pyne: voices their way. If you want to carve out an
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Saikat Pyne: individual agenda with your work and take charge of your
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Saikat Pyne: own narrative, you are in the right place.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. Hello. Welcome to the you Incorporated podcast. Please join
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Saikat Pyne: me in welcoming Ashman Das, the Co-founder and CEO of
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Saikat Pyne: Career Net, a leading talent solutions firm that has two
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Saikat Pyne: decades long track record of sourcing talent from for companies
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Saikat Pyne: of all sizes at different stages with its holistic services
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Saikat Pyne: career, Net has worked with over 500 high growth startups
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Saikat Pyne: watching 500 companies and multiple Lemen C, including the likes
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Saikat Pyne: of Walmart, Intel, Amazon, Samsung, Min Coca-cola, Reliance and many others.
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Saikat Pyne: Ashman has also been a career coach to some of
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Saikat Pyne: the most well reputed business and tech leaders in this country,
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Saikat Pyne: and he has helped them accelerate their journeys from campuses
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Saikat Pyne: to boardrooms.
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Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the podcast, Auman.
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Anshuman Das: Thank you. Now tell
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Saikat Pyne: me, a man we have this
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Saikat Pyne: huge exodus of, uh, excited young workers from the modern workforce.
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Saikat Pyne: And they're calling it the great resignation. It seems like
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Saikat Pyne: something from the Dark Ages. Why do you think this
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Saikat Pyne: is happening? What do you think led to the great resignation?
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Anshuman Das: So I would say the word great resignation has a
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Anshuman Das: little bit of, uh, negativity attached to it. And I
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Anshuman Das: would rather
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Anshuman Das: paraphrase this as a great reshuffle than as a great resignation. And, uh, probably.
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Anshuman Das: And when you understand this in detail, you'll probably to
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Anshuman Das: a degree agree that this is more of a reshuffle
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Anshuman Das: than a resignation. And resignation is just one of the
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Anshuman Das: byproducts in this whole reshuffle. And to understand this, we
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Anshuman Das: need to take a little bit of step back and
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Anshuman Das: see what happened two years back when the pandemic hit.
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Anshuman Das: I think,
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Anshuman Das: for the first time in the world, in one goal
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Anshuman Das: in the last 100 years, we all changed our behaviour
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Anshuman Das: in one go within a blink of an eye, a
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Anshuman Das: as low as about two days or three days or
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Anshuman Das: within a week the whole world changed their behaviour. This
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Anshuman Das: has never never happened in the history of mankind, At
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Anshuman Das: least not documented per se
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Anshuman Das: and that essentially called for people to behave very differently.
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Anshuman Das: And as a result of that, the whole economy and
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Anshuman Das: the whole society started kind of practising very different way
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Anshuman Das: of doing things. And one of the things which essentially
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Anshuman Das: happened was essentially everything becoming remote. And to our surprise,
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Anshuman Das: the continuity of everything was established.
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Anshuman Das: Whether you talk about working remotely whether you talk about
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Anshuman Das: education remotely, whether you talk about gaming, whether you talk
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Anshuman Das: about entertainment, whether you talk about big large deals, whether
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Anshuman Das: you talk about hiding whether you talk about growth, everything
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Anshuman Das: I think was happening remotely and I think this there
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Anshuman Das: was a very big factor about this whole remote,
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Anshuman Das: uh, work or remote activities happening which needed a very
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Anshuman Das: strong digital infrastructure which needed a very strong tech infrastructure
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Anshuman Das: overall to run. So just that the needs of and
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Anshuman Das: not that some of these things were not happening earlier.
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Anshuman Das: A lot of these things were happening earlier, but just
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Anshuman Das: that it was not the way of life, and I
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Anshuman Das: think it became the way of life when
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Anshuman Das: something of this happens unprecedented in such a ferocious and
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Anshuman Das: in such a high velocity manner. I think the needs
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Anshuman Das: of overall pacing up with that change is tremendous, and
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Anshuman Das: I think that to a degree led a reasonable level
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Anshuman Das: of shift in terms of how various businesses are responding
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Anshuman Das: to it. And I think every business, whether it was
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Anshuman Das: a traditional retail business, it was a traditional coaching business.
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Anshuman Das: It was a traditional I banking business. Everybody realised that
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Anshuman Das: they have to adopt technology in a much, much more
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Anshuman Das: accelerated manner, and then only they will be able to
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Anshuman Das: keep up to pace to what was happening. Otherwise, the
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Anshuman Das: whole digital divide will become so big and massive that
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Anshuman Das: they will just be seen as a stone age company.
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Anshuman Das: I think that was, I think, the basic premise on
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Anshuman Das: which the whole shift in the economy started happening and
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Anshuman Das: the whole digital economy started becoming mainstream. Every traditional company,
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Anshuman Das: every business who didn't have a digital component who didn't
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Anshuman Das: have a tech component had to adopt, and that led
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Anshuman Das: to an unprecedented demand, unprecedented demand of tech talent across
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Anshuman Das: the world. So that was one phenomenon which was there.
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Anshuman Das: So the demand for tech talent became absolutely, I would say, topmost.
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Anshuman Das: Second I think the way of working and people believe
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Anshuman Das: that something can be done remotely. Something can be done, Uh,
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Anshuman Das: in a very, uh, touchless manner or a faceless manner
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Anshuman Das: can be done. I think that became the second behaviour. Third,
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Anshuman Das: obviously the supply pool of talent which was there. It
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Anshuman Das: was going on its space. It's not something that general
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Anshuman Das: demand went 10 up 10 times and the supply will
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Anshuman Das: become 10. Supply will take its own sweet time.
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Anshuman Das: So I think to that degree people started realising that
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Anshuman Das: there is a lot of job opportunities which are there
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Anshuman Das: kind of a thing. So that was one big change
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Anshuman Das: which happened, and people said that let kind of, uh,
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Anshuman Das: move around jobs and look for better jobs kind of
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Anshuman Das: a thing.
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Anshuman Das: Second, I think this whole remote working people working in
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Anshuman Das: non metro locations, people working in from their hometown, people
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Anshuman Das: working from their families, I think people realise that what
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Anshuman Das: they were missing while working in bigger cities and metros
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Anshuman Das: traditionally and what used to happen, you will realise that
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Anshuman Das: there was a whole great migration which used to happen
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Anshuman Das: where people used to go where the work is people
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Anshuman Das: realise that this is the time when work is, I mean,
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Anshuman Das: where the talent is. So that was, I think, the
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Anshuman Das: third shift which happened.
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Anshuman Das: And if you actually see this is nothing but a
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Anshuman Das: complete readjustment of where people are realising that, Hey, I
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Anshuman Das: am actually now working at a place where the my
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Anshuman Das: job is reaching versus I am going where the job was.
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Anshuman Das: So I think that new dynamics have led to a
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Anshuman Das: great reshuffle.
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Anshuman Das: So reshuffle in terms of companies, whether being a non
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Anshuman Das: digital company to a digital company, talent being in metros,
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Anshuman Das: moving to their home locations, talent not, uh, working within
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Anshuman Das: office talent, actually working remotely. So I think these were
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Anshuman Das: all the reshuffles which happened in because of this pandemic.
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Anshuman Das: And I think that led to a reasonable level of upheaval,
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Anshuman Das: which we definitely kind of realised that people are leaving
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Anshuman Das: one job and joining other, and that's where the whole
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Anshuman Das: great resignation story came about.
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Anshuman Das: But net net, If you really ask me, I think,
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Anshuman Das: uh uh, this whole great reshuffle is still going on.
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Anshuman Das: It is not that the new normal new reality is discovered.
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Anshuman Das: It will take some time for people to figure out
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Anshuman Das: what is there
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Anshuman Das: and hopefully with supply catching up to the demand of
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Anshuman Das: what a talent is. I think that's a time when
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Anshuman Das: you will realise that this great reshuffle is settling down.
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Anshuman Das: And as we speak, this great reshuffle is still going on, right?
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Saikat Pyne: So would it be fair to say that the demand
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Saikat Pyne: for talent has increased? But like you said, the talent pool,
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Saikat Pyne: it's still catching up to the demand, right? That that's
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Saikat Pyne: what you said
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Anshuman Das: perfectly. It's like just you, you are bang on. I
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Anshuman Das: think the, um
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Anshuman Das: the demand has really been, I would say, three years
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Anshuman Das: to four is what the suppliers and on top of it,
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Anshuman Das: the new discovery of people in terms of actually realising
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Anshuman Das: that what they were missing when they were really working
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Anshuman Das: in a busy metro. Um, and it's not that, uh,
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Anshuman Das: people when are working remotely. Everything is good and everything
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Anshuman Das: is fine. There is a lot of places where people
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Anshuman Das: do want to come back to office and do want
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Anshuman Das: to come back to,
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Anshuman Das: uh, workplaces. So there is a reasonable level of discovery
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Anshuman Das: which is still going on. Companies are fitting out. What
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Anshuman Das: is the new way of working? What is the new normal?
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Anshuman Das: But certainly the habits have changed. And so and and
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Anshuman Das: that's why I would say this is still that that
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Anshuman Das: reshuffle is still going on. You may still find pockets
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Anshuman Das: where resignation rates are very high
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Anshuman Das: and it will take some time for it to settle down, right?
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Anshuman Das: So when
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Saikat Pyne: you say there's a difference in demand and there's difference
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Saikat Pyne: in supply, India still has the largest democratic workforce in
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Saikat Pyne: the world, right? So do you think that what really
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Saikat Pyne: is exacerbating this gap? Is it that we don't have
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Saikat Pyne: enough skilled workers in the modern workforce? Or is it
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Saikat Pyne: that there is a demand for new skills that
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Saikat Pyne: the existing workforce may be struggling to bridge? Or is
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Saikat Pyne: it about the creme de la creme talent now demanding
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Saikat Pyne: more out of their employees? Which really is the biggest
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Saikat Pyne: drawing factor for for this gap? So,
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Anshuman Das: you know, like before I really answer directly to the
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Anshuman Das: three point that you made, I would want our viewers
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Anshuman Das: to understand audience, to understand
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Anshuman Das: what? What does India Tech talent stand for today? I
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Anshuman Das: think we are broadly talking about four very big markets
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Anshuman Das: that India addresses and probably very few global talent, talent.
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Anshuman Das: Economies of the world addresses that.
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Anshuman Das: So on one hand we have a great talent base
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Anshuman Das: which addresses the which addresses through the likes of companies like, uh,
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Anshuman Das: like of your Accenture cognizant enforcers. We are the global
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Anshuman Das: offshoring hub for the world. I don't think there is
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Anshuman Das: any other scale of that magnitude available in the world today.
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Anshuman Das: That is one big pool of tech talent which we
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Anshuman Das: have
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Anshuman Das: Second big, big pool of tech talent is the A
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Anshuman Das: lot of global M n CS have set up their
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Anshuman Das: global product engine and global tech talent. Workforces in India,
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Anshuman Das: right from your big banks, like your Goldman Sachs H
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Anshuman Das: s BC A. You name any big retailer like J. C.
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Anshuman Das: Penny Walmart. Most of them have their large talent workforces
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Anshuman Das: in India, and to a degree, they are probably the
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Anshuman Das: largest centres in their across the world except their headquarter.
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Anshuman Das: Third, we have a massive digital shift happening in our
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Anshuman Das: Indian economy. We have the likes of your you have
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Anshuman Das: seen 100 unicorns which have got produced in the last
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Anshuman Das: two years and all focused on building and, uh, the
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Anshuman Das: digital infrastructure for the country and kind of a little
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Anshuman Das: bit reducing the gap of the digital divide in the country.
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Anshuman Das: So you have right from your phone pay
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Anshuman Das: flip card. You talk about you talk about you talk
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Anshuman Das: about Ola Oyo zat every category. That's a third massive
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Anshuman Das: tech talent we are consuming fourth. We have all the
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Anshuman Das: traditional business houses like Soo Tata Reliance who are making
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Anshuman Das: a phenomenal shift. They are very successful businesses but they
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Anshuman Das: are realising that tech is the new way. Digital is
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Anshuman Das: a new way of doing it.
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Anshuman Das: These four threats these four personas do not exist anywhere
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Anshuman Das: in the world so much. And I think that is
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Anshuman Das: why we have to first realise that India is very,
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Anshuman Das: very uniquely positioned while we are a very I would
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Anshuman Das: say large talent based economy.
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Anshuman Das: But I think to the other degree, uh, we have
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Anshuman Das: a very massive I would say demand which is available.
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Anshuman Das: So there is a great base which we have. We
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Anshuman Das: have a great supply. We produce almost about more than
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Anshuman Das: a million plus engineers across the world. Um but at
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Anshuman Das: the same time, when you combine these four, the demand
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Anshuman Das: is also very high. So to that degree, I think
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Anshuman Das: there is a supply demand gap. Uh, now to your point,
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Anshuman Das: in terms of
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Anshuman Das: how is talent responding to this great demand, which is available,
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Anshuman Das: I think it is all three. The last of the
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Anshuman Das: is essentially because today, what is happening? If you pick
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Anshuman Das: up a company like a Facebook or a Google or
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Anshuman Das: a Silicon Valley startup, they have reasonable number of remote
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Anshuman Das: jobs which are there, which means they are paying the
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Anshuman Das: global salaries for a talent working out of India today.
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Anshuman Das: They do not mind that somebody is sitting in New
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Anshuman Das: York or somebody sitting in Seattle or Texas or in
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Anshuman Das: Europe or in Bangalore or in,
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Anshuman Das: and you are kind of providing a global pay package.
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Anshuman Das: So in that kind of a scenario, there is definitely
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Anshuman Das: that the most premium talent is going in for international self.
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Anshuman Das: That is definitely heating up. That one part second part
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Anshuman Das: is obviously there is a reasonable number of companies within
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Anshuman Das: India who are very much open to the idea of
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Anshuman Das: remote working,
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Anshuman Das: and today there are companies who are calling employees to
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Anshuman Das: offices to work for and they're realising that I would
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Anshuman Das: want to be in my hometown and still work remotely.
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Anshuman Das: And that is essentially talent is demanding that So so
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Anshuman Das: one is the global salary. The other is the remote
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Anshuman Das: working that they are demanding for
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Anshuman Das: third, I think overall, just the I would say the
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Anshuman Das: aspiration from job and the aspiration from work has also changed.
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Anshuman Das: A lot of people have started realising that he they
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Anshuman Das: just don't need that, um homelessness, way of working and
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Anshuman Das: they have realised that OK, the new accepted norm was
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Anshuman Das: a 9 to 5 job, a five day week kind
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Anshuman Das: of a concept which 80 90% people used to practise.
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Anshuman Das: People have realised that probably they can put their needs
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Anshuman Das: more at the core of the centre and organisations will
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Anshuman Das: behave and respond to it. And I think to the
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Anshuman Das: other degree that is happening. Uh, because and what you
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Anshuman Das: will end up seeing is organisations becoming very heterogeneous whereas
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Anshuman Das: when you will see the organisations of 19 2020 they
00:14:26
Anshuman Das: were mostly homogeneous across sectors and across geographies across levels
00:14:31
Anshuman Das: across functions.
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Anshuman Das: But what you may end up seeing is an era
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Anshuman Das: of highly heterogeneous organisations, which means that a same organisation
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Anshuman Das: with various departments will behave differently with various locations. It
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Anshuman Das: may behave differently within sectors it will behave differently. And
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Anshuman Das: I think that is the new reality which we are, uh,
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Anshuman Das: glaring to in the coming future. Right?
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Saikat Pyne: So, Ashwan, you spoke about how increasingly
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Saikat Pyne: global firms are offering quote unquote global salaries to Indian talent, right?
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Saikat Pyne: And traditionally since the early two thousands since liberalisation since
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Saikat Pyne: India became this backwater for B p OS and K
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Saikat Pyne: P OS and outsourcing of talent and labour, there was
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Saikat Pyne: a huge pay parity gap, right? That's how the global
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Saikat Pyne: brands would also save a lot of money by outsourcing
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Saikat Pyne: talent to India. So now that Indian talent
00:15:29
Saikat Pyne: and Indian salaries are catching up to global standards, what
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Saikat Pyne: does that mean for global enterprises? Is it still a
00:15:37
Saikat Pyne: very small part of their overall sort of talent acquisition budget?
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Saikat Pyne: Or do you see this accelerating where talent from around
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Saikat Pyne: the world, including emerging economies, will increasingly demand salaries of
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Saikat Pyne: the level of first world countries?
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Anshuman Das: So one thing cycle what has definitely happened is in general,
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Anshuman Das: the two divides have become more accelerated. One is the
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Anshuman Das: divide of salaries between the digital talent and the non
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Anshuman Das: digital talent. Or let me put it like tech talent,
00:16:11
Anshuman Das: non tech talent. So if you even see 19 2020
00:16:15
Anshuman Das: we had people who were paying reasonably well in tech
00:16:18
Anshuman Das: talent and people who are in.
00:16:27
Anshuman Das: I think this whole pandemic has definitely accelerated that gap
00:16:32
Anshuman Das: and have made that gap more bigger. That is one
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Anshuman Das: part which we need to remember.
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Anshuman Das: Second, I think when you pick up in India and
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Anshuman Das: versus in US context, I think within the same sector
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Anshuman Das: within the same let's say Tech. I think the salary
00:16:49
Anshuman Das: disparity which used to be there at the bottom, most
00:16:52
Anshuman Das: to C O or the top most, uh, level was
00:16:56
Anshuman Das: typically anywhere about 20 to 30 x kind of a thing,
00:17:00
Anshuman Das: which means that typically you would find people who will
00:17:03
Anshuman Das: start their career at a salary of 34 Lac,
00:17:06
Anshuman Das: and typically the top most talent would be typically paid
00:17:09
Anshuman Das: about a or 1.21 point three, which means that broad
00:17:13
Anshuman Das: you're talking about 30 40 x, and that
00:17:15
Saikat Pyne: was the reality, even for a couple of years ago
00:17:18
Saikat Pyne: when I started out right, I started out with, uh,
00:17:20
Saikat Pyne: the biggest media group in the country with a pay
00:17:23
Saikat Pyne: package of around ₹3 lakh out of the best media
00:17:26
Saikat Pyne: in the
00:17:27
Anshuman Das: right. Yeah, precisely. Whereas when you pick up this disparity
00:17:31
Anshuman Das: at the same time in US, the disparity was more
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Anshuman Das: about 8. 10 x, which means that 60 $70 typical
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Anshuman Das: start salary and an equi top guy would be paid
00:17:40
Anshuman Das: about half a million, kind of. I think it's about
00:17:42
Anshuman Das: 8 10, whereas in India we were already sitting at 25.
00:17:45
Anshuman Das: 30 x there. Now, what has happened in Covid post
00:17:50
Anshuman Das: Covid pandemic thing? This gap has become actually far more bigger,
00:17:54
Anshuman Das: which means that this gap is no more 2030. This
00:17:57
Anshuman Das: gap is more 40 50 x kind of a thing
00:18:00
Anshuman Das: just to give an example at a fresher level from
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Anshuman Das: an engineer passing out of an engine in college,
00:18:08
Anshuman Das: which is a fresher there are a start salary of
00:18:10
Anshuman Das: 3.3 lacs to some of the large IT services company.
00:18:13
Anshuman Das: And there are companies which are reasonable number of companies
00:18:16
Anshuman Das: paying about 35 to 40 lac, which means even at
00:18:19
Anshuman Das: a start salary of a fresher, there is a disparity
00:18:21
Anshuman Das: of 10 x, which has happened. And if we pick
00:18:24
Anshuman Das: up the top real top digital talent, the salaries have
00:18:27
Anshuman Das: gone up to as high as about 34 group where
00:18:29
Anshuman Das: we are paying a global benchmark of half a million
00:18:32
Anshuman Das: dollar salary. So which means that the disparity has almost
00:18:35
Anshuman Das: become 100 from that point of view.
00:18:38
Anshuman Das: So not that India is going to become any less
00:18:41
Anshuman Das: competitive because we still have a lot of supply at
00:18:43
Anshuman Das: the 3 to 5 lakh bracket. Those jobs will come up.
00:18:47
Anshuman Das: But what you will increasingly see is there is that
00:18:49
Anshuman Das: particular strata of people which will start emerging, which will
00:18:52
Anshuman Das: typically be the five plus paid executive, which is a
00:18:55
Anshuman Das: global selfie being paid in India. That pool is going
00:18:58
Anshuman Das: to become bigger kind of a thing,
00:19:00
Anshuman Das: so which means that the disparity part is going to
00:19:02
Anshuman Das: become far more bigger. And this is actually if you
00:19:05
Anshuman Das: read about in in this whole pandemic scenario, post pandemic.
00:19:08
Anshuman Das: I think one of the things which is being said
00:19:10
Anshuman Das: is the disparities are going to become far more bigger
00:19:13
Anshuman Das: And that is what today the inflation is setting up
00:19:16
Anshuman Das: for any high inflator economy sets up for much more
00:19:20
Anshuman Das: disparity to be there, and that is why inflation need
00:19:23
Anshuman Das: to be brought in control. And today, globally, all the
00:19:25
Anshuman Das: companies have kind of, uh are fairly inflated. And when
00:19:30
Anshuman Das: you had $4 trillion getting printed, inflation is bound to happen.
00:19:35
Anshuman Das: And what inflation does is create those disparity and which
00:19:37
Anshuman Das: is what is actually right in the face of us
00:19:40
Anshuman Das: right now.
00:19:41
Anshuman Das: So to answer your point, does India lose it, lose
00:19:44
Anshuman Das: its competitive edge? The answer is no, because equally the
00:19:47
Anshuman Das: same amount of inflation has happened in the part of
00:19:49
Anshuman Das: the world. So we will remain competitive. But what definitely
00:19:53
Anshuman Das: I believe, is key. There is going to be a
00:19:55
Anshuman Das: lot of global problem
00:19:57
Anshuman Das: global work which normally used to only come when you
00:20:00
Anshuman Das: are located in that particular building of Sunnyvale, or you
00:20:04
Anshuman Das: were in that particular Madison square, then only used to
00:20:06
Anshuman Das: be in the maritime area. Then only you will get
00:20:08
Anshuman Das: that work. I think that boundary has gone away. So
00:20:13
Anshuman Das: net net. I do believe that India is going to
00:20:15
Anshuman Das: benefit a lot in this, right? Right. So
00:20:18
Saikat Pyne: you don't need to be in Sunnyvale. You could be
00:20:21
Saikat Pyne: in Surat. You don't need to be, uh, you know,
00:20:24
Saikat Pyne: in Madison Square Garden, you might be in.
00:20:27
Saikat Pyne: It's about sourcing top talent, regardless of location. Yes. So
00:20:32
Saikat Pyne: would you say this is the best time to be
00:20:35
Saikat Pyne: the best in the business? Would that be fair to
00:20:37
Saikat Pyne: say no, I
00:20:38
Anshuman Das: agree. And you know, this is the time. I would say,
00:20:41
Anshuman Das: because today, companies are and you know, it's the best
00:20:46
Anshuman Das: time for Indian companies because we know how we have
00:20:50
Anshuman Das: kind of learned the art of making some of the
00:20:52
Anshuman Das: best products today
00:20:55
Anshuman Das: for our typical sales processes. Assume that you can do
00:20:58
Anshuman Das: a reasonable amount of sales remotely, and you should see
00:21:02
Anshuman Das: how our sales SAS companies are really growing today, a
00:21:06
Anshuman Das: live example of to getting built in India. And we
00:21:09
Anshuman Das: are selling it remotely from here, and that's the power
00:21:12
Anshuman Das: which India is going to have. I do foresee that
00:21:16
Anshuman Das: we will add about another trillion dollars in the next
00:21:18
Anshuman Das: 10 years only to the A economy. So and which
00:21:22
Anshuman Das: means that product is built,
00:21:23
Anshuman Das: done fully out of India being sold globally. So I
00:21:28
Anshuman Das: think there are a lot of much more, I would
00:21:30
Anshuman Das: say opportunity which has opened up for India because India
00:21:34
Anshuman Das: being one of the largest labour market and labour becoming borderless,
00:21:38
Anshuman Das: so called the talent becoming borderless, I think, is absolutely
00:21:42
Anshuman Das: a big big boom for India, right?
00:21:46
Saikat Pyne: And you were speaking about
00:21:48
Saikat Pyne: income disparity. Let's roll back to that because you were
00:21:52
Saikat Pyne: speaking about how the gap between the entry level worker
00:21:58
Saikat Pyne: and the top of the line, the CE X o
00:22:01
Saikat Pyne: or the best in the business that gap has increased.
00:22:04
Saikat Pyne: Does this also mean
00:22:06
Saikat Pyne: that while good talent is going to be recognised, more
00:22:11
Saikat Pyne: people who are joining the workforce will have a longer
00:22:16
Saikat Pyne: way to the top? Because it's only a very specific,
00:22:20
Saikat Pyne: specialised skill. Sets of highly effective, highly productive, highly sort
00:22:26
Saikat Pyne: of informed, highly demand skilled worker who's going to take,
00:22:31
Saikat Pyne: you know, the lion's share of the appraisal, the lion
00:22:33
Saikat Pyne: share of the company budget in terms of free packages?
00:22:37
Saikat Pyne: Would it get more difficult for people to break into
00:22:40
Saikat Pyne: a career? Do you? Do you foresee that
00:22:43
Anshuman Das: the technology has been a very I would say Democratic
00:22:48
Anshuman Das: to that degree,
00:22:49
Anshuman Das: anyone can actually be a reasonable, good challenger and take
00:22:55
Anshuman Das: on by the skill development. And I think today this
00:22:59
Anshuman Das: whole
00:23:01
Anshuman Das: borderless remote virtual working has helped people to even enhance
00:23:06
Anshuman Das: their own skills on their own kind of a thing.
00:23:09
Anshuman Das: So to a larger degree, people have also realised that
00:23:13
Anshuman Das: because when you become like remote working and, uh, not
00:23:17
Anshuman Das: being in office, a lot of the responsibility of your
00:23:20
Anshuman Das: own learning and career development starts resting upon you. Which
00:23:24
Anshuman Das: means that if people are able to learn on their
00:23:26
Anshuman Das: skills and kind of, uh,
00:23:30
Anshuman Das: acquire all the new skill which is coming in, uh,
00:23:33
Anshuman Das: it definitely kind of enables them to be the challenger
00:23:38
Anshuman Das: for any other new opportunity which is coming back. I
00:23:40
Anshuman Das: think earlier, somewhere working at office used to give you
00:23:45
Anshuman Das: a sense of security to go and say that Oh,
00:23:49
Anshuman Das: my company, my manager will take care of what I
00:23:51
Anshuman Das: have to do about it. But many a time when
00:23:53
Anshuman Das: you are in remote, you start realising that there is
00:23:55
Anshuman Das: a lot of onus which is there on you yourself.
00:23:58
Anshuman Das: So I think it will enable and encourage people to
00:24:02
Anshuman Das: kind of be more self responsible, self managed. That will
00:24:05
Anshuman Das: definitely help people to kind of, uh uh basically acquire
00:24:11
Anshuman Das: more skills and rise to the top. And the other
00:24:13
Anshuman Das: thing is, you look technology per se is such a
00:24:16
Anshuman Das: fast changing phenomena that what is relevant today may be
00:24:20
Anshuman Das: relevant tomorrow.
00:24:22
Anshuman Das: So which means that there is always that scope about
00:24:24
Anshuman Das: to say that Hey, I missed this bus, but the
00:24:26
Anshuman Das: next bus is about to come. It is not that key.
00:24:29
Anshuman Das: The next bus in technology takes 10 years to come.
00:24:31
Anshuman Das: Unlike many other areas, you say, Oh, this is the
00:24:35
Anshuman Das: bus which I miss, and the next bus is going
00:24:37
Anshuman Das: to only take 10 years to come, which is typically
00:24:39
Anshuman Das: the case in manufacturing financial services. Many a times you
00:24:42
Anshuman Das: didn't really catch latch on to the right time. There
00:24:46
Anshuman Das: is no way you can catch up because the next
00:24:48
Anshuman Das: disruption is going to take 10 years to come. Whereas
00:24:51
Anshuman Das: in technology, you know, disruption happens every today. We are
00:24:53
Anshuman Das: talking about what a I robotics, crypto, so many new
00:24:57
Anshuman Das: things which are happening, they are going to very clearly
00:25:00
Anshuman Das: disrupt people which were essentially the really so-called the cool
00:25:04
Anshuman Das: in 2015 16 and in 25 we will talk about
00:25:08
Anshuman Das: something else, which will be disrupting what was going on
00:25:10
Anshuman Das: in 22.
00:25:11
Anshuman Das: So I think the good thing about technology is that
00:25:13
Anshuman Das: you have to keep up the pace. You have always
00:25:15
Anshuman Das: to be on top of your toes. And people who
00:25:17
Anshuman Das: have always been ahead of their career are obviously calling
00:25:21
Anshuman Das: the shots. So I think the name of the game
00:25:24
Anshuman Das: as far as a tech career is concerned. You always
00:25:26
Anshuman Das: keep yourself updated, be responsible for your career, this whole
00:25:30
Anshuman Das: remote working. And I would say virtual working has enabled
00:25:35
Anshuman Das: people and given them a sense that they should be
00:25:37
Anshuman Das: taking care of their careers a lot.
00:25:40
Anshuman Das: So I I I don't foresee that this whole thing
00:25:44
Anshuman Das: will essentially make the path longer right. Tell me,
00:25:48
Saikat Pyne: do you think the modern workforce with work from home
00:25:52
Saikat Pyne: with this increasingly more remote model of working multiple global
00:25:57
Saikat Pyne: M n CS, have declared that they
00:25:59
Saikat Pyne: be, you know, forever in a work from home setup
00:26:02
Saikat Pyne: and multiple companies are now giving employees the flexibility to
00:26:07
Saikat Pyne: come to office if they want. Maybe not come to office,
00:26:09
Saikat Pyne: giving them that total flexibility. Do you think over the
00:26:13
Saikat Pyne: longer period of time that the modern workforce will become
00:26:16
Saikat Pyne: more individualistic,
00:26:18
Saikat Pyne: that it will no longer be about a team of
00:26:22
Saikat Pyne: a team of marketers? It will become a bunch of
00:26:26
Saikat Pyne: very hardcore individuals with special skill set who are sort
00:26:31
Saikat Pyne: of breaking the mould. Do you see that to
00:26:33
Anshuman Das: be a trend? I think it is definitely the risk
00:26:36
Anshuman Das: which we are running in. People may end up becoming
00:26:38
Anshuman Das: more dangerous. We may end up assembling a World 11,
00:26:43
Anshuman Das: but we always believe that the world champions win the
00:26:46
Anshuman Das: trophy and not the world 11.
00:26:48
Anshuman Das: So you may actually see that phenomenon of people individually
00:26:53
Anshuman Das: being very good. But as a collective team, they may
00:26:55
Anshuman Das: not be so great. And that's why companies are very
00:27:00
Anshuman Das: unsettled with the view of full remote working and even
00:27:05
Anshuman Das: some of the top notch companies which announced that we
00:27:08
Anshuman Das: will be fully remote. I think they have kind of
00:27:11
Anshuman Das: realised that they need to go back
00:27:14
Anshuman Das: and they announced that in a little bit of a GP,
00:27:16
Anshuman Das: and they should actually encourage hybrid working a lot of
00:27:20
Anshuman Das: companies while are not forcing people or issuing very formal directives,
00:27:26
Anshuman Das: but they are definitely issuing a reasonable level of advisory. And,
00:27:31
Anshuman Das: uh and that's why I told you that there is
00:27:33
Anshuman Das: a some good amount of discovery which is happening. See,
00:27:37
Anshuman Das: we were actually if you see 2020 March
00:27:42
Anshuman Das: and I think our great curfew that Indian curfew started
00:27:45
Anshuman Das: on when Mr Modi went live. I think it was
00:27:48
Anshuman Das: on 22nd March or 23rd March. So I think India
00:27:51
Anshuman Das: a week before it was totally 9 to 5. Monday
00:27:54
Anshuman Das: to Friday or Monday to Saturday
00:27:56
Anshuman Das: and 29th of March the 30th march, we were fully
00:27:59
Anshuman Das: in home kind of a thing, so we were on
00:28:01
Anshuman Das: the zero or one side. Now there is no directive
00:28:05
Anshuman Das: which is going to come from the government to go
00:28:07
Anshuman Das: and say that now everyone needs to be back to
00:28:08
Anshuman Das: be 9 to 5 and five days a week. That
00:28:11
Anshuman Das: directive is not going to come.
00:28:12
Anshuman Das: So which means that the new normal is not something
00:28:15
Anshuman Das: our PM is going to come and announce that company
00:28:18
Anshuman Das: has to discover. Now somebody will go and say it
00:28:20
Anshuman Das: is a one day a week, somebody will go and
00:28:22
Anshuman Das: say It's a two day a week. Somebody will say
00:28:23
Anshuman Das: it's a one week or quarter. Somebody will say it
00:28:25
Anshuman Das: is a two week or quarter
00:28:27
Anshuman Das: so but I think no one is actually really assimilating
00:28:32
Anshuman Das: the fact that it can be fully remote forever. And
00:28:35
Anshuman Das: the basic reason is, as you rightly pointed out, people
00:28:39
Anshuman Das: will become individually great. But the 11 great people will
00:28:42
Anshuman Das: never become a one of the greatest team. So I
00:28:45
Anshuman Das: think that's the biggest risk which we are running in.
00:28:48
Anshuman Das: And I think my advice to every talented person is,
00:28:53
Anshuman Das: Please ensure that you be in office sometime. Do that
00:28:57
Anshuman Das: Osmos is learning. And that is something which will last
00:29:01
Anshuman Das: your career much more longer than just totally being in
00:29:05
Anshuman Das: remote and working from home,
00:29:08
Saikat Pyne: right? Tell me this. You have worked with so many
00:29:12
Saikat Pyne: companies and especially after the lockdown right now. Like we said,
00:29:17
Saikat Pyne: with the great resignation, there's been a hiring. So I'm
00:29:19
Saikat Pyne: sure you're working with some of the biggest companies on
00:29:21
Saikat Pyne: the planet, you know, in terms of, uh, you know,
00:29:24
Saikat Pyne: as as there is some amount of attrition in their workforce,
00:29:27
Saikat Pyne: replacing finding new talent. Do you think that
00:29:32
Saikat Pyne: you know a fully remote work environment will sort of
00:29:36
Saikat Pyne: empower brilliant jobs? Brilliant jobs are the people, you know.
00:29:39
Saikat Pyne: You work with somebody that you know who's unquestionably brilliant,
00:29:43
Saikat Pyne: like the person who who consistently comes up with great
00:29:47
Saikat Pyne: insights but is a bit of a jerk. Do you
00:29:49
Saikat Pyne: think that remote work as it promotes more individuality will
00:29:53
Saikat Pyne: empower brilliant jobs? Or or do you think
00:29:58
Saikat Pyne: it? It will just empower people to find themselves more
00:30:03
Saikat Pyne: or maybe just feel slightly out of place? What do
00:30:06
Saikat Pyne: you think will
00:30:07
Anshuman Das: happen?
00:30:08
Anshuman Das: I think it is for the organisations to decide about
00:30:11
Anshuman Das: how they want to orchestrate heroism in their company. And
00:30:16
Anshuman Das: I call it as there are like a lot of
00:30:19
Anshuman Das: companies who promote heroism, right, OK, and especially when you
00:30:23
Anshuman Das: pick up early startups, they tend to kind of do
00:30:27
Anshuman Das: some of those things. OK, but and you know that
00:30:32
Anshuman Das: will continue happening. It's not something which is new,
00:30:36
Anshuman Das: but what's definitely I think going to happen in this
00:30:39
Anshuman Das: remote working is people will start becoming a little bit
00:30:43
Anshuman Das: much more self responsible and self managed because you cannot
00:30:47
Anshuman Das: really rise up in your career. If you are working
00:30:52
Anshuman Das: remotely without being self disciplined somewhere, it is going to
00:30:56
Anshuman Das: come invite you back. You may. If someone is not
00:30:59
Anshuman Das: disciplined and is really enjoying the work from home and
00:31:03
Anshuman Das: remote working,
00:31:05
Anshuman Das: I think it is only a matter of time when
00:31:07
Anshuman Das: things will catch up with them. The person will be
00:31:09
Anshuman Das: flushed out of the system because what is hot today
00:31:12
Anshuman Das: is going to go down. It's definitely and already we
00:31:14
Anshuman Das: can see market is a little bit slowing down. So
00:31:17
Anshuman Das: it's not that this whole heart factor of the market
00:31:20
Anshuman Das: will always help you to survive. So tides are going
00:31:23
Anshuman Das: to go down. Chips are going to be down so
00:31:25
Anshuman Das: clearly if one wants to create a sustainable way of
00:31:30
Anshuman Das: hybrid working. So first thing is full remote working is
00:31:33
Anshuman Das: not sustainable. Hybrid working is sustainable
00:31:35
Anshuman Das: and even that sustainability will come once we typically have
00:31:39
Anshuman Das: much more self responsible people and I think to a
00:31:43
Anshuman Das: larger degree organisations need to also bring this sense of
00:31:49
Anshuman Das: ownership in the people that the career which people have
00:31:53
Anshuman Das: is the is the is is owned by the individual.
00:31:56
Anshuman Das: It is not owned by the company, I think, to
00:31:58
Anshuman Das: a larger degree in the pre pandemic. We used to
00:32:01
Anshuman Das: have these stories. Oh, I went in that company I
00:32:03
Anshuman Das: trusted and
00:32:04
Anshuman Das: I didn't took care. Didn't er take great care of mine?
00:32:10
Anshuman Das: And I really was given this thing. And I realised
00:32:13
Anshuman Das: five years later that I had been taken for a ride.
00:32:15
Anshuman Das: I think to a larger degree. What and I used
00:32:19
Anshuman Das: to tell them is Look, it is your career. You
00:32:21
Anshuman Das: have to take care of it. You don't make yourself
00:32:23
Anshuman Das: land to the situation.
00:32:25
Anshuman Das: And so today I think there is a definite push
00:32:29
Anshuman Das: for people to be self responsible. There are avenues where
00:32:32
Anshuman Das: people can actually go and acquire much more skill because
00:32:35
Anshuman Das: the remote learning remote working is very much in in there.
00:32:39
Anshuman Das: So I think today somebody cutting up an excuse and
00:32:43
Anshuman Das: saying that Oh, I screwed up my career because my
00:32:45
Anshuman Das: operation did not give me an opportunity. I think that
00:32:49
Anshuman Das: is something we may not end up buying 34 years later.
00:32:53
Anshuman Das: So to a larger degree, I think, uh, people will, uh,
00:32:56
Anshuman Das: benefit organisations should benefit people. Companies practising any heroism in
00:33:02
Anshuman Das: their culture. I think if they have been doing that,
00:33:06
Anshuman Das: then they will continue doing that. I don't see that
00:33:08
Anshuman Das: as anywhere going away. If companies are doing that all
00:33:11
Saikat Pyne: right, does heroism work?
00:33:15
Saikat Pyne: Because this is again something without taking names of startups.
00:33:19
Saikat Pyne: It's something that has been a culture that we've invite,
00:33:24
Saikat Pyne: I I guess, from the West in in some ways
00:33:27
Saikat Pyne: as well, where you know, there there's this very visionary
00:33:30
Saikat Pyne: founder who has a magnetic personality and, you know, people
00:33:34
Saikat Pyne: are be sorted by his talent and his vision and
00:33:37
Saikat Pyne: and his, you know, sort of heralding sort of speeches
00:33:41
Saikat Pyne: at at events and at conferences and in the media.
00:33:44
Saikat Pyne: And, uh, we are increasingly seeing a culture of bravado
00:33:49
Saikat Pyne: and and sort of, bro, uh, in the Indian startup
00:33:53
Saikat Pyne: culture as well. Do you Do you think that is
00:33:56
Saikat Pyne: something that leads to attrition in the longer period of time? Or,
00:34:00
Saikat Pyne: you know, how has the dynamics of how people perceive
00:34:03
Saikat Pyne: startups changed since the pandemic?
00:34:05
Anshuman Das: See, heroism is a, I would say, a very short
00:34:09
Anshuman Das: and gimmicky view of
00:34:11
Anshuman Das: creating some quick eyeballs for a company, but I think
00:34:16
Anshuman Das: very soon, if the organisation is not replacing with actual
00:34:20
Anshuman Das: displacement on the ground and actual sustainable culture. I I
00:34:25
Anshuman Das: think it is going to fail
00:34:27
Anshuman Das: and there are a lot of places. So we can
00:34:30
Anshuman Das: always take the case of a example of a person
00:34:33
Anshuman Das: like Elon Musk, which is probably one of the greatest
00:34:37
Anshuman Das: positioning himself as the heroes. But I think on the ground,
00:34:40
Anshuman Das: if you actually go and see he delivered Tesla, he
00:34:43
Anshuman Das: delivered a couple of things. Now let's see what he
00:34:45
Anshuman Das: does with Twitter. It's yet to be seen,
00:34:48
Anshuman Das: so I think, you know, one can always garner good
00:34:53
Anshuman Das: attention by doing that. It could be a little bit
00:34:56
Anshuman Das: of a maybe gimmicky way of attracting attention, but I
00:35:01
Anshuman Das: think at the end of it, it has to very
00:35:04
Anshuman Das: soon take that legs of that solid delivery net displacement
00:35:08
Anshuman Das: happening on the ground, building a solid, sustainable culture. I
00:35:12
Anshuman Das: think if it is not replaced by that in a
00:35:16
Anshuman Das: very quick succession,
00:35:18
Anshuman Das: I think it is bound to fail. So I think
00:35:22
Anshuman Das: that gimmicky stuff is OK for some short time, and
00:35:25
Anshuman Das: a lot of startups do lean on that, Um and
00:35:29
Anshuman Das: I think every company has a way of doing things
00:35:34
Anshuman Das: so there's nothing wrong so far. You are very clear
00:35:38
Anshuman Das: that this has to be replaced by it. But if
00:35:40
Anshuman Das: you think this is the way our organisation will go
00:35:43
Anshuman Das: and run, this is the culture which will be built.
00:35:47
Anshuman Das: I think it's not going to go places and I
00:35:50
Anshuman Das: don't see companies in my circle or the one I'm
00:35:54
Anshuman Das: aware about which have survived and done very well. Due
00:35:57
Anshuman Das: to the heros culture, right,
00:35:59
Saikat Pyne: in terms of how companies are now being perceived by
00:36:03
Saikat Pyne: candidates on
00:36:04
Saikat Pyne: is the brand or a feeding. Somehow in India, we
00:36:08
Saikat Pyne: are people who go for some amount of hero worship.
00:36:13
Saikat Pyne: We're speaking about heroism in terms of showmanship and slightly
00:36:16
Saikat Pyne: being boisterous. That's different. But in India we are also
00:36:20
Saikat Pyne: a very status driven society, right, so, you know
00:36:25
Saikat Pyne: be is still a sort of a stamp of approval
00:36:30
Saikat Pyne: for the mother. So there is a certain amount of
00:36:34
Saikat Pyne: celebration of brands and working for certain brands. Do you
00:36:38
Saikat Pyne: see that aura of working for big companies working for
00:36:42
Saikat Pyne: M n CS changing in favour of
00:36:45
Saikat Pyne: more of an individualistic look of what am I now
00:36:48
Saikat Pyne: contributing to a brand? Is that aura feeding on. Do
00:36:52
Saikat Pyne: you think that is still sort of intact with the
00:36:54
Saikat Pyne: big brands of the world?
00:36:56
Anshuman Das: Brand aura is a very deep cultural issue, which is
00:37:00
Anshuman Das: not something which is going to change so fast. It
00:37:02
Anshuman Das: takes generations to change. OK, and within an India you
00:37:06
Anshuman Das: will find there are a lot of, like
00:37:08
Anshuman Das: mothers and families which do not really associate brand with
00:37:13
Anshuman Das: an I A T or a brand with a company. Yeah,
00:37:16
Anshuman Das: there are people who associate brand with the kind of
00:37:18
Anshuman Das: work we do and you will, and these changes are
00:37:21
Anshuman Das: little deeper changes to happen.
00:37:23
Anshuman Das: But what I think psyche is going to happen Talent
00:37:27
Anshuman Das: brand creation for a company post pandemic is going to
00:37:31
Anshuman Das: be easier, and I'll give you an example of it.
00:37:34
Anshuman Das: 2012 to 18. I have come across a lot of
00:37:38
Anshuman Das: candidates in my career who would actually go to a
00:37:41
Anshuman Das: company and say, Hey, that company building facade is great, right?
00:37:46
Anshuman Das: Because my two would be father in law has seen
00:37:49
Anshuman Das: that building
00:37:49
Anshuman Das: right? I am working for that big I T services company,
00:37:53
Anshuman Das: which has got a massive tech park in Kang Electronic City.
00:37:56
Anshuman Das: It is Yeah, and they have got, like, so many
00:37:59
Anshuman Das: buses running in the city, and it's a known company, but,
00:38:02
Anshuman Das: you know, and I will go and join that company.
00:38:04
Anshuman Das: But I cannot take up your offer of that old startup,
00:38:07
Anshuman Das: which is going to produce the next of the mobile platform,
00:38:11
Anshuman Das: which is coming. It is so cool and sexy, but
00:38:13
Anshuman Das: I will not pick up because there's some startups
00:38:15
Anshuman Das: in a garage and my would be father-in-law doesn't know
00:38:18
Anshuman Das: about it. Right
00:38:18
Saikat Pyne: right there. There have been stories of people claiming higher.
00:38:22
Saikat Pyne: Not that it's something to be proud of.
00:38:24
Anshuman Das: Precisely right. So which means that the earlier the creation
00:38:28
Anshuman Das: of Brand was being a big tech park. Pay that
00:38:31
Anshuman Das: fancy rent be in that jazzy one, come up with
00:38:34
Anshuman Das: a five page ad and this and that. Be on this,
00:38:37
Anshuman Das: which means that only very big mighty companies will be
00:38:40
Anshuman Das: able to do it
00:38:42
Anshuman Das: OK, whereas today, when you are in the post pandemic
00:38:46
Anshuman Das: era where you are really like that virtual thing, you
00:38:50
Anshuman Das: are really working remote. You are a team of 50 people,
00:38:53
Anshuman Das: 10 sitting in car park and go sector 32 10
00:38:58
Anshuman Das: sitting in my and in in O. M R Road
00:39:03
Anshuman Das: 10 sitting in and in Whitefield and 10 sitting in
00:39:07
Anshuman Das: Mala and this place and 10 sitting in. Let's say
00:39:09
Anshuman Das: on
00:39:10
Anshuman Das: you don't have an office. I think the work that
00:39:12
Anshuman Das: you do is your brand. What the products you make
00:39:15
Anshuman Das: is your brand. The kind of people you hire is
00:39:18
Anshuman Das: a brand. I think that is essentially far more democratic
00:39:22
Anshuman Das: and far more enriching brand creation than actually going and saying,
00:39:27
Anshuman Das: I run buses. I create those massive buildings. I am
00:39:30
Anshuman Das: in those massive tech parks from that point of view,
00:39:33
Anshuman Das: so I think
00:39:34
Anshuman Das: it is going to be far more democratic. Smaller companies
00:39:37
Anshuman Das: will find far more better access to talent earlier. What
00:39:42
Anshuman Das: used to happen or you are not on the outer
00:39:44
Anshuman Das: ring road of Bangalore, where the massive tech parts are
00:39:47
Anshuman Das: that you will lose out on talent, right?
00:39:49
Anshuman Das: OK, now there is no more needed. So which means
00:39:52
Anshuman Das: that the access to talent has become far more democratic.
00:39:54
Anshuman Das: It is your quality of work, and that minded that
00:39:57
Anshuman Das: Pool Mobile O, a startup company ready to pay it
00:39:59
Anshuman Das: five times off of maybe 50% more than what the
00:40:02
Anshuman Das: that typical I services company, which is running buses, was
00:40:05
Anshuman Das: paying for right. But still, the guy declined,
00:40:07
Anshuman Das: Right? So which means today I think the president has
00:40:11
Anshuman Das: moved the the evaluation of a candidate evaluating a job
00:40:15
Anshuman Das: has changed. It is no more that fancy five page
00:40:19
Anshuman Das: ad being on F M radio. Having that jazzy tech
00:40:22
Anshuman Das: park having those buses Having those school cafeterias is important.
00:40:26
Anshuman Das: I think it is the quality of work, the kind
00:40:28
Anshuman Das: of people you are hiring, the kind of salary you
00:40:30
Anshuman Das: are paying, the kind of stock options you are bringing
00:40:33
Anshuman Das: in the kind of learning experience you are giving in.
00:40:35
Anshuman Das: Where is your future headed? Where is your stock? I
00:40:37
Anshuman Das: think those have become the far more important indicators are
00:40:39
Anshuman Das: the real indicators, if you ask me.
00:40:41
Saikat Pyne: But do you think as we start going back into,
00:40:45
Saikat Pyne: like a hybrid model and some companies would, you know,
00:40:48
Saikat Pyne: maybe over the past year or two, start doing fully
00:40:53
Saikat Pyne: sort of back to office
00:40:55
Saikat Pyne: of a working environment? Do you think some of those
00:40:58
Saikat Pyne: bells and whistles some of that of the more flaky
00:41:01
Saikat Pyne: parts of a brand so will sort of feed back
00:41:04
Saikat Pyne: because people will always value, You know, their experience with
00:41:09
Saikat Pyne: their employer. And as they keep going back to office,
00:41:13
Saikat Pyne: the meals in office, let's say, or or the the
00:41:16
Saikat Pyne: office building then becomes more of a part of their
00:41:20
Saikat Pyne: of their environment of their experience and the the perception.
00:41:23
Saikat Pyne: And
00:41:23
Saikat Pyne: there's, of course, a rub off effect of the branding and,
00:41:26
Saikat Pyne: you know, being in Cyber Hub or being in Electronic City, right?
00:41:30
Saikat Pyne: So do you think work from office is going to
00:41:33
Saikat Pyne: sort of bring some of that back? Or have we
00:41:35
Saikat Pyne: completely skipped over that after two
00:41:37
Anshuman Das: years? No, it is going to It is it is
00:41:40
Anshuman Das: to a certain degree. As I said, there is going
00:41:43
Anshuman Das: to be that little bit of, uh, working, which is
00:41:47
Anshuman Das: going to come out. And obviously, if you ask me,
00:41:50
Anshuman Das: working within an office
00:41:52
Anshuman Das: AAA. And if you actually ask me today, which are
00:41:57
Anshuman Das: the companies which need hybrid working mode? Is it the startups,
00:42:01
Anshuman Das: or is it the, uh, large M N. C? The
00:42:04
Anshuman Das: answer is, the startups need more right, not the M
00:42:06
Anshuman Das: N C. And if you actually go and see the
00:42:10
Anshuman Das: large parks in India, especially in cities like your Bangalore Hyderabad,
00:42:14
Anshuman Das: reasonable level of Malay and companies are yet not, their
00:42:19
Anshuman Das: pandemic is out. But still I can see
00:42:22
Anshuman Das: um, talent is still working remotely, and these are all
00:42:26
Anshuman Das: feted by a N. C. Whereas when you go to
00:42:28
Anshuman Das: those startup pockets, you will still see higher density of
00:42:31
Anshuman Das: people coming out to be. Not that those offices were
00:42:34
Anshuman Das: very jazzy and obviously they good offices, but not like
00:42:37
Anshuman Das: the jazzy office. But people are coming. So I think,
00:42:41
Anshuman Das: to a degree, what has happened. This pandemic has some
00:42:45
Anshuman Das: degree done, a little bit of reset of people in
00:42:48
Anshuman Das: terms of what you should value more OK,
00:42:51
Anshuman Das: which means that people are definitely valuing a little bit
00:42:54
Anshuman Das: of osmos learning a little bit of hybrid working, working remotely.
00:42:59
Anshuman Das: So I think the influencing parameters have changed. Obviously, I
00:43:04
Anshuman Das: would not say that the big jazzy buildings, those seven
00:43:07
Anshuman Das: course buffets, that thing is not going away. It will come.
00:43:10
Anshuman Das: It will have some impact, but it will have much
00:43:13
Anshuman Das: lesser impact, as it used to have earlier, right, right.
00:43:16
Saikat Pyne: And as we uh, sort of get into this completely
00:43:21
Saikat Pyne: new world of sort of modern workforce talent acquisition. How
00:43:26
Saikat Pyne: has the landscape for talent acquisition changed? Post the pandemic
00:43:30
Saikat Pyne: for enterprises? What are brands now looking for in their
00:43:34
Saikat Pyne: best candidates? Has that changed over the past year and
00:43:37
Saikat Pyne: a
00:43:37
Anshuman Das: half? Look, if you ask for my employer point of
00:43:40
Anshuman Das: view today, employer obviously
00:43:43
Anshuman Das: is kind of nervous when looking in for talent, because
00:43:47
Anshuman Das: earlier people used to be in office. There used to
00:43:50
Anshuman Das: be a face time used to really like meet up
00:43:53
Anshuman Das: body language used to speak a lot. So to that degree,
00:43:56
Anshuman Das: I think employers are reasonably nervous about how to onboard
00:44:00
Anshuman Das: people how to in them into the culture. How do
00:44:02
Anshuman Das: you really like, ensure that you are in touch? You
00:44:05
Anshuman Das: are essentially able to build that bond and connect.
00:44:08
Anshuman Das: So there is definitely that nervousness, which is there. There
00:44:10
Anshuman Das: are definitely some amount of tools and other things which
00:44:14
Anshuman Das: have come about, which are essentially ensuring that how are you,
00:44:17
Anshuman Das: like people are using slack people. Some people are using overall, uh,
00:44:21
Anshuman Das: Google hangouts, which are remaining open throughout the day, and
00:44:24
Anshuman Das: people are logging and working, so people have used
00:44:27
Anshuman Das: various methods to be in touch But in general, if
00:44:30
Anshuman Das: you see, uh, what has really changed? Pre pandemic post
00:44:35
Anshuman Das: pandemic In terms of the expectation, I think the expectation
00:44:39
Anshuman Das: is broadly still the same. Uh is essentially be loyal,
00:44:43
Anshuman Das: dedicated work be app right about what is happening.
00:44:48
Anshuman Das: But yeah, I think to a degree there is a
00:44:50
Anshuman Das: shift about tech talent. So there is a definitely a
00:44:54
Anshuman Das: much more degree of, uh, deeper reliance on tech talent.
00:44:59
Anshuman Das: As a result of that, I think the tech needs
00:45:01
Anshuman Das: have gone up from an a point of view. But
00:45:03
Anshuman Das: our organisation used to look for within an individual. I
00:45:06
Anshuman Das: think that hasn't really changed much. So can we go
00:45:10
Anshuman Das: and say that? OK, today companies have started hiring managers
00:45:13
Anshuman Das: and they are looking for a skill called How do
00:45:16
Anshuman Das: you do remote virtual workforce management?
00:45:19
Anshuman Das: Let me tell you, I haven't really yet received a
00:45:21
Anshuman Das: g d from a company highlighting the fact that I
00:45:24
Anshuman Das: need people who have a proven experience of managing workforce
00:45:29
Anshuman Das: virtually kind of a thing. I think that g d
00:45:31
Anshuman Das: still reads about that. I need good five years of
00:45:34
Anshuman Das: first line second line management. I need people who have
00:45:38
Anshuman Das: stick to their jobs. I still need people who have
00:45:41
Anshuman Das: pretty been able to make reasonable impact. So I think
00:45:44
Anshuman Das: that expectation per se hasn't changed.
00:45:47
Anshuman Das: But yeah, definitely. I think, uh, there is a a
00:45:50
Anshuman Das: good amount of I would say what is coming out
00:45:56
Anshuman Das: as a supply has seen. Because if you notice in
00:45:59
Anshuman Das: the last two years, there is a lot of people
00:46:03
Anshuman Das: who have become managers, first time managers and they haven't
00:46:05
Anshuman Das: met their teams, right? There are a lot of people
00:46:08
Anshuman Das: who are puzzled from the campus in the last two
00:46:09
Anshuman Das: years who haven't gone to a college for the last
00:46:11
Anshuman Das: two years and are joining.
00:46:14
Anshuman Das: And they are not being called virtually in the office
00:46:17
Anshuman Das: to get us assimilated. So a lot of those things
00:46:20
Anshuman Das: have changed. So as a result of that, a lot
00:46:23
Anshuman Das: of the organisations are responding to those situations. OK, how
00:46:27
Anshuman Das: do we hand really bring a manager inside the organisation
00:46:32
Anshuman Das: who has turned a manager and has yet not met
00:46:35
Anshuman Das: their team in the last one year? So I think
00:46:38
Anshuman Das: there is a definite area of challenge which organisations are
00:46:42
Anshuman Das: going through as far as
00:46:44
Anshuman Das: and they would want the person to be as good
00:46:47
Anshuman Das: as a manager. What was a manager? They pre pre
00:46:49
Anshuman Das: preventing it so that expectation hasn't changed. But I think
00:46:52
Anshuman Das: a lot of supply has really not been up to
00:46:55
Anshuman Das: the mark. And that is where I think the companies
00:46:58
Anshuman Das: are going through a problem area.
00:46:59
Saikat Pyne: Are employers, um, jittery about attrition? Because right now we
00:47:05
Saikat Pyne: have some of the highest attrition rates, especially startups have
00:47:09
Saikat Pyne: had some of the highest attrition rates you speak with,
00:47:12
Saikat Pyne: you know, C HR OS of some of the biggest
00:47:14
Saikat Pyne: brands in India. How jittery are they about attrition?
00:47:18
Anshuman Das: In fact, this has become the top most top topic
00:47:21
Anshuman Das: in the boardroom today. At I would say
00:47:24
Anshuman Das: if let's say you talk about, are your revenues going up?
00:47:28
Anshuman Das: Do you have sufficient money in the bank and the
00:47:30
Anshuman Das: funds to run the company or attrition in the company?
00:47:33
Anshuman Das: Which of these three is the biggest problem? I think
00:47:35
Anshuman Das: the third is a bigger problem than the other two
00:47:37
Anshuman Das: in today's company in today's environment, So I think it
00:47:41
Anshuman Das: is really one of the big topics which companies are
00:47:44
Anshuman Das: right now struggling with not their sales, not their revenues,
00:47:49
Anshuman Das: not their fundraise,
00:47:51
Anshuman Das: right?
00:47:52
Saikat Pyne: Right. But as this as this reset of labour happens,
00:47:57
Saikat Pyne: you know, once the dust settles on what they are
00:48:00
Saikat Pyne: calling the great resignation, you call it the great Reshuffle.
00:48:03
Saikat Pyne: So do you think the the modern, the the average
00:48:08
Saikat Pyne: member of the modern workforce would be in a better position?
00:48:12
Saikat Pyne: Or do you think it will pretty much, uh, you know,
00:48:14
Saikat Pyne: sort of go back because And this is a very
00:48:17
Saikat Pyne: rarified notion, but I've spoken to some truly talented people
00:48:21
Saikat Pyne: who say that the company is
00:48:23
Saikat Pyne: has always been bigger. The employer has always been bigger
00:48:26
Saikat Pyne: than the talent. So is this like they say the
00:48:29
Saikat Pyne: empire strikes back? Is this the time where the talent
00:48:32
Saikat Pyne: strikes back and and in some ways, recruiters are playing
00:48:35
Saikat Pyne: catch up? And once the dust settles, it is going
00:48:39
Saikat Pyne: to be an employer first game again. Or is it
00:48:41
Saikat Pyne: pretty much going to be a talent first
00:48:43
Saikat Pyne: industry? From now
00:48:44
Anshuman Das: on? See, I think the Empire strike back phenomena happens,
00:48:49
Anshuman Das: but it's a very smaller pocket, which goes through that
00:48:52
Anshuman Das: where people say, Oh, it's my time and I give
00:48:54
Anshuman Das: it back employees or there are employers who say it's
00:48:57
Anshuman Das: my time and give it back and I think to
00:49:00
Anshuman Das: that degree 5 10% of that will always keep happening.
00:49:04
Anshuman Das: There will be always that 5 10% companies will be
00:49:06
Anshuman Das: in that mode and there will be always that 5 10%
00:49:08
Anshuman Das: talent will be in that mode.
00:49:10
Anshuman Das: But broadly, I would say there would be a readjustment
00:49:14
Anshuman Das: which is going to happen, which means that on one hand,
00:49:17
Anshuman Das: when traditional hikes used to be 10% they went 30%.
00:49:20
Anshuman Das: I think the 30% hikes is not sustainable. It is
00:49:23
Anshuman Das: going to come back, maybe 10% 12% so people may
00:49:27
Anshuman Das: go back and say Hey, this is a time when
00:49:30
Anshuman Das: companies are giving it back and saying no more, 30%
00:49:32
Anshuman Das: it is back to that 10 12%.
00:49:34
Anshuman Das: I think if somebody wants to take it like this
00:49:36
Anshuman Das: is a strike back kind of a thing, so be it.
00:49:39
Anshuman Das: But look, that's the reality. It's a demand supply adjustment
00:49:42
Anshuman Das: which we have to do so which happens in any market.
00:49:45
Anshuman Das: So I think we have to just treat it like
00:49:48
Anshuman Das: this is a talent market and the demand supply adjustment
00:49:50
Anshuman Das: will happen. So at the end of it, look, we
00:49:53
Anshuman Das: cannot out price ourselves. And the big question we need
00:49:56
Anshuman Das: to answer on this key Is India out? Price? I
00:49:58
Anshuman Das: think I answered that. No, India is not out price
00:50:01
Anshuman Das: because inflation is there everywhere
00:50:03
Anshuman Das: to larger degree, I would say, from an Indian talent
00:50:06
Anshuman Das: market point of view, we are still doing good. We
00:50:08
Anshuman Das: will do pretty good. We will still be the global
00:50:12
Anshuman Das: hub of the talent workforce Economy per se. Um, I
00:50:16
Anshuman Das: think the future for India is quite bright.
00:50:19
Anshuman Das: Um uh, and this whole strike back is more than
00:50:23
Anshuman Das: a strike back. It is the, I would say demand
00:50:26
Anshuman Das: supply adjustment, right
00:50:28
Saikat Pyne: once the dust settles and we've seen this pre covid
00:50:32
Saikat Pyne: When there were a couple of companies in the talent
00:50:35
Saikat Pyne: war
00:50:36
Saikat Pyne: to attract some of the the seemingly better talent among
00:50:39
Saikat Pyne: the modern workforce, there were obscene salaries that were being
00:50:42
Saikat Pyne: offered right? There are people who had gone to, you know,
00:50:46
Saikat Pyne: some of these more modern startups with 100% 200 person,
00:50:50
Saikat Pyne: sometimes even with 300% paychecks.
00:50:53
Saikat Pyne: And many of them are currently witnessing a sort of
00:50:57
Saikat Pyne: a career stagnation because they do realise that while their
00:51:00
Saikat Pyne: salaries might have jumped triple digits, their skill sets haven't
00:51:05
Saikat Pyne: sort of kept track with those. And the fallout from
00:51:09
Saikat Pyne: that is companies also did mass companies. Also, multiple startups did, uh,
00:51:17
Saikat Pyne: sort of mass layoffs during the covid pandemic. Do you
00:51:21
Saikat Pyne: think that
00:51:23
Saikat Pyne: as the dust settles and the demand supply gap sort
00:51:28
Saikat Pyne: of bridges that there might be an ushering for more
00:51:34
Saikat Pyne: of a correctional force on the modern workforce? While people
00:51:38
Saikat Pyne: might be joining with 50% 60% 70% even 100% hikes?
00:51:42
Saikat Pyne: As companies fall short on Labour, they might go through
00:51:46
Saikat Pyne: another period of stagnation or potential layoffs in the
00:51:51
Saikat Pyne: one or two next coming financial year? Do you see
00:51:54
Saikat Pyne: that as an issue?
00:51:54
Anshuman Das: Most certainly. I think there is going to be a
00:51:56
Anshuman Das: correction which is happening, and I can already see signs
00:52:00
Anshuman Das: of that today because I think if somebody has just
00:52:07
Anshuman Das: got 100% raises in the last two years, and that
00:52:12
Anshuman Das: the individual believe that it is sustainable, it is not,
00:52:15
Anshuman Das: and those places people will have to take a haircut.
00:52:18
Anshuman Das: And what is definitely going to happen if people do
00:52:21
Anshuman Das: not take a haircut. It may actually lead to, uh,
00:52:24
Anshuman Das: some layoffs and those kind of things. It is definitely possible. Uh,
00:52:30
Anshuman Das: and I do know that there is already a set
00:52:33
Anshuman Das: of talent whose salary got inflated in the last two years,
00:52:37
Anshuman Das: and the jobs are under a little bit of stress.
00:52:40
Anshuman Das: And where they're looking out,
00:52:42
Anshuman Das: they are not finding, uh, similar or even 10% lower
00:52:46
Anshuman Das: pay packages, and they're ready to take a cut. It
00:52:49
Anshuman Das: is definitely going to be that whole painful process which
00:52:53
Anshuman Das: is going to be there. And, uh, to a degree,
00:52:56
Anshuman Das: I would say we may be heading towards that phenomena
00:53:00
Anshuman Das: very so right. A.
00:53:03
Saikat Pyne: You have also spoken to some truly gifted professionals in
00:53:08
Saikat Pyne: your two decade long
00:53:10
Saikat Pyne: experience in talent management. Tell me, has there been a
00:53:14
Saikat Pyne: shift in terms of what talent wants? Or do they
00:53:18
Saikat Pyne: still pretty much want a healthy workforce? Because until until
00:53:24
Saikat Pyne: very recently, hustle was a very big part of the
00:53:27
Saikat Pyne: startup culture
00:53:29
Saikat Pyne: in India, right? And with Covid and the world sort
00:53:31
Saikat Pyne: of screeching to a standstill, there was this new curve
00:53:36
Saikat Pyne: of people and companies trying to focus on wellness and
00:53:41
Saikat Pyne: trying to there were companies offering free therapy sessions to employees.
00:53:45
Saikat Pyne: Do you see the hustle coming back? Do you see
00:53:48
Saikat Pyne: the work culture changing as we come out of from
00:53:53
Saikat Pyne: the worst effects of the of the pandemic and out
00:53:56
Saikat Pyne: of this sort of talent demand supply gap? Will we
00:54:00
Saikat Pyne: go back to the hustle hard work hard, create history,
00:54:04
Saikat Pyne: sort of a hustle on days again,
00:54:06
Anshuman Das: See like there is definitely going to be a change
00:54:08
Anshuman Das: which has come out. So I think when I
00:54:11
Anshuman Das: told you that look, organisations, expectations haven't really changed to
00:54:16
Anshuman Das: that degree in terms of when they hire. But whereas
00:54:19
Anshuman Das: today when I look at talent expectations, talents, in some
00:54:23
Anshuman Das: sense have a little bit are hovering around being unfair. Today,
00:54:28
Anshuman Das: people are not wanting to
00:54:32
Anshuman Das: who go to office and work. If if companies asking
00:54:36
Anshuman Das: them you would have seen today there's a set of
00:54:38
Anshuman Das: employees in apple Globally, they have went and launched a protest,
00:54:43
Anshuman Das: saying that you have asked us to come for two
00:54:45
Anshuman Das: days in office and three days there. This is not
00:54:48
Anshuman Das: hybrid working. This is force and all of that I
00:54:50
Anshuman Das: think there will be a reasonable number of un I
00:54:53
Anshuman Das: would say,
00:54:55
Anshuman Das: uh, demands. The demand, which are not the right demands
00:54:59
Anshuman Das: will start are already there in the market pay hikes,
00:55:02
Anshuman Das: for example, remote working or working from home kind of environment. Um,
00:55:07
Anshuman Das: people coming on to calls without their videos being on
00:55:10
Anshuman Das: kind of a thing. A lot of those things, I think, uh,
00:55:13
Anshuman Das: I would say these are going to get corrected, but
00:55:17
Anshuman Das: is everything going thing going to get corrected? The answer
00:55:20
Anshuman Das: is no. And what it means that will this lead
00:55:22
Anshuman Das: to a reasonable level of
00:55:25
Anshuman Das: change? The work culture? Probably. Yes, as in just one
00:55:29
Anshuman Das: other thing which was very sacrosanct, which I had seen
00:55:32
Anshuman Das: was companies preferring
00:55:35
Anshuman Das: their future employees to come from a little stable background,
00:55:38
Anshuman Das: which means that they should have at least spent 23
00:55:40
Anshuman Das: years in a company on average. And then we are
00:55:42
Anshuman Das: looking for right. I am finding that there is a
00:55:45
Anshuman Das: set of large number of companies which are OK, where
00:55:47
Anshuman Das: are the last three years? Didn't have been one year
00:55:49
Anshuman Das: each kind of a thing, right, which was a big
00:55:52
Anshuman Das: red flag earlier. If this becomes a norm, then you
00:55:56
Anshuman Das: know we are definitely headed for a little bit of
00:55:58
Anshuman Das: this whole phenomena of that great resignation where people will
00:56:01
Anshuman Das: pick up a job, resign after one year because
00:56:04
Anshuman Das: to earlier, a person who has done three job change
00:56:08
Anshuman Das: in three years when the fourth job change was happening,
00:56:11
Anshuman Das: we used to tell them You better stick for five
00:56:13
Anshuman Das: years there. Otherwise you're not going to get the next job.
00:56:15
Saikat Pyne: Yeah, yeah, I remember my seniors telling me that Yeah.
00:56:18
Anshuman Das: Yeah. And if this becomes accepted phenomenon, then you know
00:56:21
Anshuman Das: we are really headed for that. And in an organisation,
00:56:23
Anshuman Das: when you go in one year, what is the learning? Yeah,
00:56:26
Anshuman Das: there is no real learning. There are no steroids, which
00:56:29
Anshuman Das: you are given for someone who want to learn.
00:56:31
Anshuman Das: So I think there is definitely that massive shift which
00:56:35
Anshuman Das: can happen here. And some of these shifts are not
00:56:39
Anshuman Das: for the good of the workforce, Right? Like, as I said,
00:56:42
Anshuman Das: fully in office is not good. Hybrid working is good
00:56:46
Anshuman Das: and it is good for the talent and that's a
00:56:48
Anshuman Das: good shift. OK, but accepting to the fact that you
00:56:53
Anshuman Das: can keep changing your job every six time and that
00:56:55
Anshuman Das: becomes a no is not a good shift.
00:56:57
Anshuman Das: So there is a reasonable change which is going to
00:57:00
Anshuman Das: be happening post this whole when the new reality comes about.
00:57:03
Anshuman Das: What is the new when the the settle. So some
00:57:06
Anshuman Das: of this we will like it and some of this
00:57:07
Anshuman Das: we will not like it
00:57:09
Saikat Pyne: right, And it's a matter of time before the cows
00:57:11
Saikat Pyne: come home. It's a matter of time before the dust
00:57:13
Saikat Pyne: settles and the bad actors sort of either get weeded
00:57:16
Saikat Pyne: out or or have some amount of some sort of
00:57:19
Saikat Pyne: an action taken against them, because companies will very soon
00:57:23
Saikat Pyne: realise that people as
00:57:25
Saikat Pyne: brilliant as they might be if they are not going
00:57:28
Saikat Pyne: to last in your company, then you know all of
00:57:30
Saikat Pyne: the money that you might spend in terms of, you know,
00:57:33
Saikat Pyne: their onboarding in terms of their compensation, in terms of
00:57:36
Saikat Pyne: investing stocks in their names and all of that paperwork.
00:57:39
Saikat Pyne: And you invest in this person.
00:57:42
Saikat Pyne: Uh, if it's only for a period of six months,
00:57:45
Saikat Pyne: it's not contributing to the long term health and well
00:57:48
Saikat Pyne: being of of your brand and your company, right?
00:57:51
Anshuman Das: I am right now negotiating an offer for a large
00:57:54
Anshuman Das: executive in a company because the current incumbent has gone
00:58:00
Anshuman Das: ahead and negotiated the his salary three times in the
00:58:04
Anshuman Das: last one year. And the board is absolutely pissed off
00:58:08
Anshuman Das: with this thing and saying that
00:58:10
Anshuman Das: we can't really go this. We are paying the best salary.
00:58:14
Anshuman Das: How can somebody come back and negotiate three times in
00:58:16
Anshuman Das: one year and this is the fourth time it came?
00:58:20
Anshuman Das: They ran the mandate. We are going to hire someone.
00:58:23
Anshuman Das: We are going to actually pay 40% 50% more than
00:58:26
Anshuman Das: what the incumbent is being paid.
00:58:29
Anshuman Das: But the basic fact on which we are trying to
00:58:31
Anshuman Das: evaluate the current new leader is that the person should
00:58:35
Anshuman Das: show that real, strong leadership, that conventional leadership of sticking
00:58:40
Anshuman Das: to the ground and making it happen, and not that
00:58:42
Anshuman Das: every three months things are changing. So and I do
00:58:45
Anshuman Das: know that the pay bracket at which the current incumbent
00:58:49
Anshuman Das: is sitting the way markets are headed, the current incumbent
00:58:52
Anshuman Das: will have a very tough time finding a job. But
00:58:55
Anshuman Das: I think the person has already done the damage,
00:58:58
Anshuman Das: so so I think there will be a reasonable number
00:59:00
Anshuman Das: of stories will come out to be. I just hope
00:59:03
Anshuman Das: that some of these so called the bad apples do
00:59:06
Anshuman Das: not become the culture of the company and the culture
00:59:08
Anshuman Das: of the industry. Otherwise, it will be very, very damaging,
00:59:11
Saikat Pyne: right? So we were speaking about the culture of brilliant jerks, right?
00:59:15
Saikat Pyne: If you are a brilliant jerk who has some in
00:59:17
Saikat Pyne: demand skills and you get too cocky for the industry,
00:59:21
Saikat Pyne: the industry
00:59:22
Saikat Pyne: that has given you everything, it'll only take them that
00:59:25
Saikat Pyne: much time to to spit you out and leave you
00:59:28
Saikat Pyne: by the wayside because there's always somebody better than you.
00:59:32
Saikat Pyne: There's always somebody more qualified. There's always somebody who's cheaper,
00:59:35
Saikat Pyne: and there's always somebody with more hands on experience in
00:59:38
Saikat Pyne: the job. So in a hyper competitive market like India,
00:59:42
Saikat Pyne: which is already the biggest democratic workforce in the world,
00:59:46
Saikat Pyne: you better not get too cocky for your own good, right?
00:59:50
Anshuman Das: I agree. And hopefully, sensibility should not go out
00:59:54
Saikat Pyne: right right now. Tell me you're speaking about leadership hiring.
00:59:58
Saikat Pyne: What do recruiters look for while they are hiring candidates
01:00:01
Saikat Pyne: for leadership roles? Because the definition of a leader has
01:00:05
Saikat Pyne: also changed over the past couple of years, especially with
01:00:07
Saikat Pyne: these new startups. Multiple people in their early thirties are
01:00:11
Saikat Pyne: now taking on director senior director A. V PV
01:00:15
Saikat Pyne: level roles right? You're seeing people with as little as
01:00:18
Saikat Pyne: five year experience join startups and as the startup scale,
01:00:22
Saikat Pyne: they have now become vice presidents of companies. The typical
01:00:26
Saikat Pyne: sort of workforce sort of escalation in terms of your
01:00:31
Saikat Pyne: responsibilities and and your position is that you would retire
01:00:35
Saikat Pyne: as a vice president. I remember my father. He retired
01:00:38
Saikat Pyne: as a vice
01:00:39
Saikat Pyne: president and he was in the same company for all
01:00:41
Saikat Pyne: of his working days, and he started working at in
01:00:44
Saikat Pyne: in his early twenties, and he retired at 55. That
01:00:48
Saikat Pyne: has really changed. So are recruiters looking for different skill
01:00:52
Saikat Pyne: sets while they hire for leadership roles? And what do
01:00:54
Saikat Pyne: you think about this culture of the 20 something leader
01:00:59
Saikat Pyne: or the early 30 something leader in high growth startups?
01:01:04
Anshuman Das: So I think what what happened is, uh,
01:01:07
Anshuman Das: in high growth startups, I think the average age of
01:01:10
Anshuman Das: leadership is reducing. That is one phenomenon which I have
01:01:13
Anshuman Das: at least noticed. And the average workforce is becoming far
01:01:18
Anshuman Das: more younger, and many a times it is the Gen
01:01:21
Anshuman Das: Z or the Gen X which is there and as
01:01:24
Anshuman Das: a result of that I think they have their own
01:01:26
Anshuman Das: level of aspirations of this new generation.
01:01:30
Anshuman Das: So especially in today's leadership context, it is very important
01:01:34
Anshuman Das: for leader to be able to resonate the aspirations and
01:01:39
Anshuman Das: ambitions of this new generation. And that's why you would
01:01:42
Anshuman Das: see the reason why the average age of leadership is
01:01:46
Anshuman Das: reducing a lot.
01:01:48
Anshuman Das: The other I think the the way I think today
01:01:52
Anshuman Das: organisations are their shapes are changing a lot. They are
01:01:55
Anshuman Das: becoming far more flexible. They are becoming far more heterogeneous
01:01:59
Anshuman Das: in their way of approaching things. I think people are
01:02:04
Anshuman Das: reasonably need to be, I would say adaptable to the
01:02:06
Anshuman Das: situation and they need to respond to what is happening
01:02:11
Anshuman Das: versus to say that. OK, I plan things for very
01:02:13
Anshuman Das: long term and it is going to happen. I think
01:02:15
Anshuman Das: if you see the whole
01:02:16
Anshuman Das: this whole pandemic, I think a lot of the companies
01:02:20
Anshuman Das: and a lot of the countries have responded to the
01:02:22
Anshuman Das: situation versus saying that there is a very formidable plan
01:02:25
Anshuman Das: which is their benefit. So I think it is a
01:02:29
Anshuman Das: lot very situational leadership which is kind of turning out
01:02:32
Anshuman Das: to be done to say it's a very meticulous planning,
01:02:35
Anshuman Das: which is required. And I think that's, I think, the
01:02:38
Anshuman Das: today's nature of leadership. And that's what the companies are
01:02:41
Anshuman Das: looking for because I think the in this pandemic is
01:02:45
Anshuman Das: very high.
01:02:46
Anshuman Das: And I think that's where the nature of the leadership
01:02:49
Anshuman Das: is also going to change, right? How
01:02:51
Saikat Pyne: has talent acquisition changed since the pandemic? Of course, most
01:02:56
Saikat Pyne: of talent acquisition was always remote. You know you would
01:03:01
Saikat Pyne: get calls. You would often put up your your CV
01:03:04
Saikat Pyne: on professional networks like
01:03:06
Saikat Pyne: or or dot com and a talent advisor and talent
01:03:10
Saikat Pyne: advisory firms who would be scouting for people for rules
01:03:14
Saikat Pyne: that they want to fill. But except for that most
01:03:18
Saikat Pyne: obvious change, what have been the other most subtle change
01:03:22
Saikat Pyne: in terms of how talent is now scouted?
01:03:26
Anshuman Das: Well, I think talent equation has definitely changed a lot.
01:03:29
Anshuman Das: If you pick up, let's say, at the campus campus
01:03:31
Anshuman Das: was actually a place where, like a lot of parent
01:03:33
Anshuman Das: equation used to happen. Within the campuses, companies used to
01:03:37
Anshuman Das: go with those jumbo panels people used to visit various campuses,
01:03:40
Anshuman Das: meet up, do p. P. T. S live in those
01:03:43
Anshuman Das: campuses for a day or two day do those interviews.
01:03:45
Anshuman Das: I think all of that has become very touchless and remote.
01:03:48
Anshuman Das: So to that degree, I think the overall operational stuff
01:03:52
Anshuman Das: which was required within the whole recruitment and ricing has
01:03:56
Anshuman Das: gone out. So if you actually pick up the previous
01:03:59
Anshuman Das: way of recruitment, a typical candidate whose resume used to
01:04:04
Anshuman Das: land to the time when the candidate offer was accepted
01:04:08
Anshuman Das: used to be anywhere about 4 to 6 weeks. And
01:04:10
Anshuman Das: in that 4 to 6 week, the actual process of
01:04:12
Anshuman Das: reciting used to be about 6 to 8 hours of
01:04:14
Anshuman Das: meeting and scheduling and everything put together.
01:04:17
Anshuman Das: And the balance of the time was mostly used to
01:04:20
Anshuman Das: figure out when the candidate is available when the panel
01:04:23
Anshuman Das: is available when the venue is available. So we were
01:04:25
Anshuman Das: mostly doing programme management of operations and nothing else. Today
01:04:29
Anshuman Das: I think that process has cut down to as low
01:04:31
Anshuman Das: as about a day or two day kind of something.
01:04:33
Anshuman Das: So which means that the speed has really come in.
01:04:35
Anshuman Das: It has become far more efficient. It has become far
01:04:38
Anshuman Das: more seamless. Things like campus recruitment have got totally transformed.
01:04:42
Anshuman Das: And given the fact that key there is a lot
01:04:45
Anshuman Das: of remote recruitment happening, a heavy reliance on various new
01:04:49
Anshuman Das: tools and techniques and a lot of assessment formal assessments
01:04:52
Anshuman Das: have come into picture because that is a very good,
01:04:56
Anshuman Das: stronger way of evaluating people. And you use those scores
01:05:00
Anshuman Das: and those things to interview further people and get a
01:05:02
Anshuman Das: real good map of what a person is about. Because
01:05:05
Anshuman Das: earlier you used to take a lot of those signals
01:05:07
Anshuman Das: while meeting through your body language and everything.
01:05:09
Anshuman Das: Now, when everything is becoming virtual, people are realising that
01:05:11
Anshuman Das: it could be a very good way of actually recruiting
01:05:14
Anshuman Das: and evaluating people. So net net I would say turnaround
01:05:18
Anshuman Das: times have become far more less taken. It has become
01:05:22
Anshuman Das: far more lesser cumbersome to visit campuses or meet up
01:05:26
Anshuman Das: people or arrange for venues and those things,
01:05:30
Anshuman Das: I think, to a larger degree. Uh, people are very
01:05:34
Anshuman Das: comfortable to do meetings at nine o'clock, 10 o'clock kind
01:05:36
Anshuman Das: of thing. Plus, the other thing, what has happened is
01:05:39
Anshuman Das: key companies are able to outsource a very large component
01:05:44
Anshuman Das: of the hiring process, which means that they are ready
01:05:46
Anshuman Das: to
01:05:47
Anshuman Das: to outsource content development of assessments. They are ready to
01:05:50
Anshuman Das: outsource the first round of interviews. They are using a
01:05:53
Anshuman Das: lot of those tools which can essentially screen the initial
01:05:57
Anshuman Das: candidates and make the python much more richer. So you
01:06:00
Anshuman Das: are only meeting 10 people and picking up the Final
01:06:02
Anshuman Das: Five kind of a thing. So to a larger degree,
01:06:05
Anshuman Das: I would say, um, pandemic has been the demon moment
01:06:08
Anshuman Das: in the recruiting space, and
01:06:10
Anshuman Das: it has really like, I think, change the way the
01:06:12
Anshuman Das: reciting used to run
01:06:13
Saikat Pyne: right. You made an excellent point about evaluating skill sets.
01:06:17
Saikat Pyne: So has the value of signalling sort of decreased? Because
01:06:23
Saikat Pyne: I remember back in the days people used to say
01:06:26
Saikat Pyne: You do this M b a degree from this Ivy
01:06:29
Saikat Pyne: League school because it will land you up somewhere, right?
01:06:34
Saikat Pyne: Has the value signalling of degrees decreased with the more
01:06:40
Saikat Pyne: assessment heavy model of recruitment? Do you see the value
01:06:43
Saikat Pyne: of these professional programmes going down versus more of a
01:06:48
Saikat Pyne: stronger focus on the skill set of the candidate? Can
01:06:51
Saikat Pyne: the skill set guy still beat the one with the
01:06:55
Saikat Pyne: more flashy degree? Or is it still we need the
01:06:58
Saikat Pyne: the skill set,
01:06:59
Saikat Pyne: but it's always good to have an I V League
01:07:02
Saikat Pyne: tag because the board would prefer somebody
01:07:04
Anshuman Das: with the tag at the early talent level, your degrees
01:07:09
Anshuman Das: or your certifications. And those things help a lot because
01:07:13
Anshuman Das: I think they tend to become a very good door
01:07:15
Anshuman Das: opener for someone. But, you know, the, uh, actual selection
01:07:20
Anshuman Das: will happen when you are really qualified for the job
01:07:24
Anshuman Das: and you really have those skills for the job.
01:07:26
Anshuman Das: And there may be instances where somebody may be six
01:07:31
Anshuman Das: or 10 on skills and the profile and the pedigree
01:07:33
Anshuman Das: may seem eight. And as a result of that, companies
01:07:36
Anshuman Das: may actually kind of inclined to hire. So at the
01:07:39
Anshuman Das: end of it, a hiring decision is a balance of
01:07:43
Anshuman Das: what your degree and your profile is and what your
01:07:45
Anshuman Das: skill is. But definitely at the early level talent. It's
01:07:50
Anshuman Das: a reasonable playbook where your degrees and certification help you
01:07:54
Anshuman Das: to at least open the doors.
01:07:55
Anshuman Das: I think once you kind of move forward in the
01:07:58
Anshuman Das: career to a larger degree, it is your resume, the
01:08:02
Anshuman Das: work which you have done the kind of companies you
01:08:04
Anshuman Das: have worked for, start taking precedence over your degrees and
01:08:07
Anshuman Das: then obviously, skill at any point in time you have acquired.
01:08:11
Anshuman Das: Whether it is your early career or late career is
01:08:13
Anshuman Das: always very useful and is the most important thing what
01:08:16
Anshuman Das: is required. The I think the VI of degrees over
01:08:20
Anshuman Das: a period of time reduces
01:08:22
Saikat Pyne: right just to round off our conversation with our last question.
01:08:27
Saikat Pyne: What would your advice be? We were speaking about people
01:08:30
Saikat Pyne: who are just joining the workforce, people who went from
01:08:35
Saikat Pyne: a remote college environment straight into a workforce where they
01:08:40
Saikat Pyne: might not be meeting their colleagues ever for the next
01:08:43
Saikat Pyne: couple of months. So what would your advice be to
01:08:46
Saikat Pyne: new members of the workforce
01:08:49
Anshuman Das: if I have to give only one piece of advice
01:08:51
Anshuman Das: for the new workforce, which is joining and which has
01:08:55
Anshuman Das: been the remote education for the last two years? My
01:08:59
Anshuman Das: only one advice is don't join a company, which is
01:09:02
Anshuman Das: still saying that you will be fully remote. Don't miss
01:09:05
Anshuman Das: out that peer to peer learning. Don't miss out that
01:09:09
Anshuman Das: working from office, because that osmos is learning that formal
01:09:13
Anshuman Das: learning is very, very valuable. And at the start of
01:09:17
Anshuman Das: your career,
01:09:18
Anshuman Das: do not start on a wrong note,
01:09:21
Saikat Pyne: right? Right. That is such lovely advice. And with that,
01:09:26
Saikat Pyne: it's a wrap. Thank you for being on the podcast. Aman.
01:09:29
Saikat Pyne: It was lovely having you guys please tune in next
01:09:34
Saikat Pyne: week for the next episode of the U Incorporated podcast.
01:09:38
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01:09:47
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