[00:00.000 --> 00:11.640] Welcome to our show such a pleasure to have you here. Like we were discussing that unfortunately
[00:11.640 --> 00:16.680] we have very few female fintech leaders in India and globally as well but you've been at the
[00:16.680 --> 00:22.240] helm of so many companies and now a lead in revenue. So it's a real moment of pride for
[00:22.240 --> 00:27.120] me to have you on the show and I hope I have more women like you and Fintech on my show going
[00:27.120 --> 00:32.840] forward in future but to begin things with I would love to know as to what really made
[00:32.840 --> 00:38.080] you pick up your interest in Fintech what was the triggering point?
[00:38.080 --> 00:42.880] First of all thank you Radhika for having me here it's super to be here and chatting with
[00:42.880 --> 00:48.360] you like this and to the first thing that you said about having more women fintech leaders
[00:48.360 --> 00:55.200] on your show I want to see more women fintech leaders and then obviously they would have
[00:55.200 --> 01:01.120] accomplished that to merit a seat on your show. Now coming to your question of what got
[01:01.120 --> 01:10.960] me into Fintech go back to 2010 which is 13 years ago which was the first start of the
[01:10.960 --> 01:17.640] wave of fintech in India. This was the era of Nokia 3310 handsets on the phone where you
[01:17.640 --> 01:24.280] had a tiny screen on which you could just play a game called Snake where you got SMSs with
[01:24.280 --> 01:32.080] cricket scores and incoming calls were charged outgoing calls were also charged so people would
[01:32.080 --> 01:36.720] give missed calls asking somebody to call you back because incoming was lower than output
[01:36.720 --> 01:44.640] that's the time frame. When the first company that I joined to do Fintech which was Airtel
[01:44.640 --> 01:52.600] thought of how can this device which was now from an Airtel standpoint at that time in
[01:52.600 --> 01:58.240] the Indian population and Airtel connection was in 200 million Indian phones how can we
[01:58.240 --> 02:06.040] use that to make payments possible using that instrument. So I had this landmark interview
[02:06.040 --> 02:13.080] I was having I had already had about seven years of a good start to my career in banking
[02:13.080 --> 02:21.600] with cards was considered leadership potential top talent which was fast track getting promotions
[02:21.640 --> 02:27.360] and things like that had had the great opportunity to launch the cards business for quartet so it
[02:27.360 --> 02:32.960] was all going fine and then I had the opportunity to interact with somebody who was then the
[02:32.960 --> 02:39.360] CEO for Airtel and commerce who actually pitched this vision of imagine if we could do this
[02:39.360 --> 02:45.960] and that imagine is what got me into Fintech to actually imagine a world that did not exist
[02:46.520 --> 02:53.160] and the opportunity to create that and make it happen and that's what we did. I got into Airtel
[02:54.360 --> 03:02.680] to get the first prepaid mobile wallet license out from RBI for a telecom company to get into
[03:02.680 --> 03:10.040] payments and that was the start of what is today an entire revolution that the country has
[03:10.120 --> 03:16.600] witnessed over the last decade. I remember those white boarding sessions that we used to do to
[03:16.600 --> 03:22.120] figure out how we can use this to make payments instead of just making calls and sending messages
[03:22.120 --> 03:26.840] but we did it initially with the US SD string you had to type a string of numbers to initiate
[03:26.840 --> 03:33.560] a payment to then SDK solution you burnt it on a sim and then obviously the world changed
[03:33.560 --> 03:39.640] you had smartphones coming in doing it on an app and today it's universal today we talk about
[03:39.640 --> 03:47.800] 87% of a 1.4 billion population using this statement called CUPI. But yeah that imagining
[03:47.800 --> 03:53.320] a world that did not exist and having the opportunity to create that is what got me into Fintech.
[03:53.320 --> 03:59.000] Yeah when my follow-on question is similar to what you said I'm sure the innovation in
[03:59.000 --> 04:04.520] the space is so much which must have gotten you stick through so many years but apart from that
[04:04.600 --> 04:11.800] what is it that really makes you wake up every day with different energy to work for this industry
[04:11.800 --> 04:17.480] you know because I've seen so many leaders change their courses and careers and you know
[04:17.480 --> 04:23.320] adapt different pathways as being a leader in different forms and roles but what made you
[04:23.320 --> 04:31.000] stick through in Fintech for so many years? The answer to it is people people into forms
[04:31.480 --> 04:42.360] one consumers the second employees and the reason is impact so every morning if I wake up thinking
[04:42.360 --> 04:47.960] that whatever work I do through the 8 to 10 hours of constructive work that I put in through that day
[04:48.600 --> 04:57.400] is going to bring about a material change in a consumer's life and second in joining me in doing
[04:57.480 --> 05:03.000] that work it is going to make a material learning difference in an employee's life yeah are the
[05:03.000 --> 05:09.160] two things that keep me going every single day and that impact streak has been there like I
[05:09.160 --> 05:15.720] spoke to you starting from et al money where the first reason was to enable remittances on that
[05:15.720 --> 05:20.680] this was domestic remittances then you had the entire migrant working community where the
[05:20.680 --> 05:25.960] male in the family would leave their rural households behind yeah eastern UP big heart
[05:27.000 --> 05:32.840] bingol orissa that belt they would come into cities like Adeli Mumbai Bangalore to work
[05:33.480 --> 05:39.080] and they had to send money back every month and in that time frame the 2010-11 time frame I'm
[05:39.080 --> 05:45.800] talking about they would have to stand in queues at bank branches deposit cash and wait for that cash
[05:45.880 --> 05:52.120] to transfer and on the receiving side the bank branches weren't there aren't there in every village
[05:52.760 --> 05:59.000] the family would have to go to their district headquarters where their closest branch was
[05:59.000 --> 06:03.640] and go and actually withdraw that cash till that time the family had run out of cash and didn't
[06:03.640 --> 06:10.200] have money to spend that was the reality and the fact and mobile phones had penetrated in both
[06:11.000 --> 06:16.760] so the same male migrant laborer who was working in the city would call up to their family every
[06:16.760 --> 06:21.640] day and talk to them so the thing was how do you bridge that that they haven't need to send money
[06:21.640 --> 06:27.560] which they can't it's so cumbersome but they have this instrument in their hands where which is
[06:27.560 --> 06:32.760] which is already pervaded into their homes and they were using that every how can you stitch
[06:32.760 --> 06:39.800] the two together and you realize that by creating payments on that you've actually made a difference
[06:39.880 --> 06:43.880] in the lives of those people the ones who are sending money they could finish their work
[06:43.880 --> 06:48.520] of the day in the evening just send money from their phone yeah right the ones who were in their
[06:48.520 --> 06:54.200] back home in their villages they wouldn't have to trek all the way in the bullock carton then a
[06:54.200 --> 06:59.320] cycle and then an auto-rich charge to get to a district headquarters and stand in front of
[06:59.320 --> 07:03.080] a bank branch to take it out they could they had received the money they could go to their nearest
[07:03.080 --> 07:08.520] recharge outlet and just take it out you made a material difference and the fact that your work
[07:08.600 --> 07:14.840] was making that change happen yeah it was was a big motivator and then when I look at the
[07:14.840 --> 07:21.320] my employees and my team were there with me were joining me making that happen and and working
[07:21.320 --> 07:26.520] with me and the delight that they derive out of making that difference that gives me the joy
[07:26.520 --> 07:31.080] at the end of the day that it's not just me I'm also able to give this as a learning to other
[07:31.080 --> 07:37.640] people and and genuine joy of creating impact to other people yeah I can sense that in your energy
[07:37.640 --> 07:42.360] when you speak about your team and the smile which you had on your face you know it was much
[07:42.360 --> 07:48.840] more than in your answer on fintech you know I see that you are more of a people's person because
[07:48.840 --> 07:54.040] they are the ones who drive the change at the end of the day and make things happen yes at the end
[07:54.040 --> 08:00.120] of the day it is about people yeah products product design building products why do you do that you
[08:00.120 --> 08:04.520] do that to improve somebody's life yeah if you're not doing that to improve somebody's life then
[08:04.600 --> 08:08.680] I think you should be questioning yourself why are you doing it yeah so you don't build a product
[08:08.680 --> 08:13.000] for products sake okay you don't run a business for businesses sake you don't build technology
[08:13.000 --> 08:20.040] for technology sake yeah the best product design is the one that makes in the simplest manner
[08:20.040 --> 08:25.720] the best change in a consumer's life yeah the best use of technology is when it has actually
[08:25.720 --> 08:29.880] impacted change and makes made people's lives better right otherwise standalone product and
[08:29.880 --> 08:35.880] technology what does that even mean yeah so yeah you know I want to really know why do we see
[08:35.880 --> 08:42.840] lesser women consumers and women leaders both in the fintech ecosystem why is that the case still
[08:43.560 --> 08:48.360] it's not just the fintech ecosystem it's overall financial services inclusion
[08:48.360 --> 08:53.880] financial inclusion right which has been a buzzword for more than a decade now and a lot of
[08:53.880 --> 08:59.080] strides have been made towards financial inclusion but when you feel the first layer of that onion
[08:59.080 --> 09:03.560] and you try to look at equality under financial inclusion that's when these things surface
[09:04.680 --> 09:11.000] to understand that you need to go back to social psychology of our country and not just
[09:11.000 --> 09:17.160] as this is prevalent in a lot of developing nations as well the male of the household is seen
[09:17.160 --> 09:23.320] typically as the breadwinner right so what do you mean by first of all the financial inclusion is
[09:23.320 --> 09:28.360] when a bank account has been opened in their family so when the bank account gets opened it is
[09:28.360 --> 09:36.680] by default opened in the name of the male breadwinner in that household right second typically a lot
[09:36.680 --> 09:43.480] of the women therefore still do not have accounts of their own now even where women are working
[09:43.480 --> 09:49.960] are earning and this i'm starting from the the bottom of the pyramid rural tier three
[09:50.520 --> 09:59.000] uh SEC D or NCCS uh classification they could be working in an urban environment
[09:59.640 --> 10:06.200] as a domestic help in somebody's house or as a nurse in the hospital or or any of these
[10:06.200 --> 10:13.320] or a street cleaner for that matter right um or in the rural areas they could be uh working
[10:13.320 --> 10:19.960] as farm hands uh a tea garden picker or they could be engaged in business they could be weaving
[10:19.960 --> 10:27.960] their own baskets they could be um making their own toys etc they could be running something
[10:27.960 --> 10:34.920] an enterprise but whatever they earn still goes into if it has to go if it comes as cash
[10:35.880 --> 10:41.480] it is handed over to the man of the house and the man of the house decides what he wants to spend
[10:41.560 --> 10:47.080] it on wherever it has moved forward into banking a bank account being available with the household
[10:47.080 --> 10:50.840] that money if it is put into a bank account it's put into a bank account in the name of the male
[10:50.840 --> 11:00.440] of the house so women typically um do suffer from not equal inclusion yeah when it comes to opening
[11:00.440 --> 11:09.960] a financial um accounts how do you think that can change one is awareness and education for sure
[11:10.520 --> 11:17.640] awareness among women that they not just can but should have a bank account of their own
[11:18.200 --> 11:26.040] in their own name right it is a mindset it's even if you have good well functioning households
[11:26.840 --> 11:31.480] you don't necessarily have to have everything about the woman tied to the man yeah right even
[11:31.480 --> 11:37.400] within that setup creating that awareness and that education and that comfort and removing the bias
[11:37.400 --> 11:42.920] so way for that woman to have an identity of her own a bank account of her yeah identity today she
[11:42.920 --> 11:48.840] does by virtue of adhar even the women in the country have an identity document so if they want
[11:48.840 --> 11:57.240] to they can but they need to be pushed forward to do that and second in terms of the um industry
[11:57.240 --> 12:03.320] any payments to be made whether a consumer payment to a woman or a business payment to a woman
[12:04.280 --> 12:10.040] if it can go into insisting that it goes into the woman's own account rather than just an account
[12:10.040 --> 12:16.120] that account number that is given by the woman would go into sort of giving a philip and a trigger
[12:16.120 --> 12:23.160] to get the women to open an account in their own name and become a little more self-sufficient and
[12:23.160 --> 12:27.960] in control of their own money and access to their own money that they spend their lives working
[12:27.960 --> 12:34.520] hard and earning so that's the inclusion side of it one aspect of inclusion the other aspect of
[12:34.520 --> 12:41.160] inclusion is credit when you're giving loans the unfortunate reality of India still is that
[12:41.960 --> 12:49.800] there are elements of the men who still open shadow account shadow businesses and the names of
[12:49.800 --> 12:55.080] their wives and daughters where the women in the family don't necessarily know of the existence
[12:55.160 --> 13:01.880] of the company and then the preference in their names but now what happens on the credit score
[13:01.880 --> 13:06.920] a lot of companies therefore while decisioning on when to give a loan when there is a woman
[13:06.920 --> 13:12.920] applicant now right the word they will actually ask the woman applicant to get a male to stand
[13:12.920 --> 13:20.200] guarantee so either get your father or get your husband now while that is being done to take care
[13:20.200 --> 13:24.760] of a different problem but imagine what it puts a woman who has a genuine right to be there is
[13:24.840 --> 13:29.720] running a genuine business and has genuinely deserving of getting a loan on their own terms
[13:30.520 --> 13:35.880] they still necessarily have to get a guarantor in the form of a father or a husband like do I have
[13:35.880 --> 13:43.240] to get my husband or father in front of a bank to deserve a loan I don't think so right so it's
[13:43.240 --> 13:48.360] that's the other mindset to take away that the problem statement is not a problem statement of
[13:48.360 --> 13:53.880] man versus woman in decisioning if you were to take that as a variable out of the equation
[13:54.360 --> 13:59.800] and try and figure out ways to assess what is a shadow company the shadow company could also
[13:59.800 --> 14:08.520] very well be in the name of a brother or a son for that matter so to work harder to again as I say
[14:08.520 --> 14:13.320] peel the layer of the onion and not fall for the first thing okay man woman woman likely going
[14:13.320 --> 14:17.960] to be that so let's ask for guarantee the problem gets taken care of that's a very short sighted view
[14:18.520 --> 14:24.840] to go deeper than that and go and address the real problem rather than this and that's something
[14:24.840 --> 14:29.880] that I did at the lending company that I used to run it was actually one of the first companies
[14:29.880 --> 14:36.440] that went and said that I don't need a male guarantor if I even if there is a woman applying
[14:37.480 --> 14:41.240] you have to prove your own credentials whether you're a man or a woman so
[14:41.880 --> 14:46.680] you know so these are the things where in in financial inclusion whether in terms of opening bank
[14:46.680 --> 14:53.000] accounts or in terms of getting access to credit there is a difference yeah so that's sort of the
[14:53.000 --> 15:01.160] way I see where that gap exists in in servicing a financial balance now coming to the other part
[15:01.160 --> 15:08.200] of your question about employees and women in leadership it's not just in fintech I think it is
[15:08.200 --> 15:17.960] in corporate overall um I think it starts again right at the school level where even now
[15:17.960 --> 15:24.840] there is a disparity even now in rural countries there are women girl child dropouts from school
[15:24.840 --> 15:29.400] for various reasons and various stages when the girl is growing up and can't deal with going to
[15:29.400 --> 15:35.560] school on certain days in the month they drop off if the family has a financial crisis and they can
[15:35.560 --> 15:42.520] send just one child to school they would rather send the boy then send the girl so the girl is
[15:42.520 --> 15:47.640] the second choice if only they can afford to send both of them that while it has improved
[15:47.640 --> 15:52.600] significantly over the last few years particularly in urban India but it still remains so that's
[15:52.600 --> 16:00.840] at a school level then when it the first level of cut happens at a college level where STEM which
[16:00.840 --> 16:08.040] is your technology engineering management those kind of courses even now most of the applicants
[16:08.680 --> 16:15.640] are male compared to women so women still even if they want to go to college there is a higher
[16:15.640 --> 16:22.360] propensity to take courses which are more oriented towards the arts or commerce rather than more
[16:22.360 --> 16:29.400] STEM courses and therefore that is the first level where the the ratio starts to do things
[16:30.520 --> 16:36.120] in terms of a lower percentage of women participation girl participation in STEM and a higher percentage
[16:36.120 --> 16:40.680] of a boy participation in STEM that's one of the reasons we actually at Rev.
[16:40.680 --> 16:42.120] we rolled out the Rev.
[16:42.120 --> 16:49.320] Ira scholarship okay what is that okay so Ira incidentally is another name of goddess
[16:49.320 --> 16:59.320] Swarasar Swati who in the Indian mythology embodies learning and knowledge so my thesis there was that
[17:00.520 --> 17:07.640] you need to identify a talented woman young even while she is in college and I mean I somehow feel
[17:07.640 --> 17:12.360] that like I've done that more than 20 years ago if somebody actually came to me and told me then
[17:12.360 --> 17:16.840] that you know what I think you're good I think you're going to get there with a bit of help
[17:16.920 --> 17:21.240] but a bit of support and I can see you right now and I'm going to do things for you
[17:21.960 --> 17:29.480] it's kind of that that my way of saying that okay I can identify hopefully a talented young girl
[17:29.480 --> 17:32.520] and through that scholarship is my sign and Rev.
[17:32.520 --> 17:40.600] sign of showing that I think you're the Ira you embody the knowledge and learning and talent
[17:41.160 --> 17:47.000] and I am there to support you yeah to hopefully have you have a great start to your career
[17:48.440 --> 17:57.000] as so we actually did that in the top four IMs and ISB so we picked the top girls from the batch
[17:58.360 --> 18:06.040] and we actually award her this scholarship wow and I'm quite proud of the batch of Ira scholars
[18:06.040 --> 18:11.480] that are coming out right now personally met them okay yeah I'm sure they'll have a great future
[18:11.480 --> 18:19.080] I'm happy to be doing this for them so and then and then it's great that
[18:19.080 --> 18:24.120] revenue supports a lot of these philosophies to be able to bring these subliminal changes
[18:24.120 --> 18:31.320] in just the work cultural environment and I'm able to do that yeah so coming back to that
[18:31.320 --> 18:37.240] so yeah the second level is at that college and studies level then the third level comes
[18:37.240 --> 18:43.880] to when you start at the start of your career now this I'm going to say it I've noticed this
[18:43.880 --> 18:50.280] and I've noticed this over the last two decades it is again one of the things that is changing but
[18:50.280 --> 18:59.320] needs to change more boys can get over confident girls can get under confident
[19:00.280 --> 19:07.720] so in an interview setting you will have typically boys do better yeah because they inherently
[19:08.360 --> 19:13.640] have a better orientation towards projecting their work better or their aspirations better
[19:13.640 --> 19:23.080] or their capabilities better women tend to be naturally inherently more humble and don't
[19:23.400 --> 19:30.360] feel a little uncomfortable talking about their achievements and accomplishments so
[19:31.320 --> 19:37.880] so if a boy and a girl are equally good you'll typically see the boy presented better than a
[19:37.880 --> 19:43.560] girl would and in an interview setting where somebody just has half an hour or one hour to make a
[19:43.560 --> 19:50.040] decision guess which way it goes yeah so if you look at placement statistics from campuses you'll
[19:50.600 --> 19:55.320] it's the first the ratio is already tilted at entry level in the stems and then when it comes to
[19:55.320 --> 20:02.680] actual recruitment from campuses the ratio gets tilted further in terms of the better jobs going
[20:02.680 --> 20:12.360] to the boys that's that's the second level where it happens then comes actual life scenarios where
[20:12.360 --> 20:19.880] even now when a girl and a boy decide to get married even now the expectation is if the two of
[20:19.880 --> 20:25.960] them are in two different locations for the girls to make the adjustment yeah and that's the next
[20:25.960 --> 20:33.640] level where girls start dropping off changing their jobs transferring among etc to accommodate for
[20:33.640 --> 20:41.240] an overall life or family situation it's not yet I mean my wish is about it being fair I mean the
[20:41.240 --> 20:46.040] the partner that has the better job that works out for the family that should be or deciding
[20:46.040 --> 20:51.880] criteria it shouldn't be about whether it's the the new groom or the new bride yeah so that's the
[20:51.880 --> 20:59.480] next level at which it does drop off in skew and then the biggest biggest level is maternity
[21:00.440 --> 21:08.440] as soon as a child is born now there is a genuine biological need for the mother to obviously be
[21:08.440 --> 21:14.120] there with a child I think I take that away there are some things the the creator has made
[21:14.200 --> 21:20.360] for women to do and men can opt to let's face it that is there but there are ancillary things around
[21:20.360 --> 21:27.320] that that apart from just that core everything else that needs to be done around the child care
[21:27.320 --> 21:36.040] somehow even now continues to fall on the woman yeah so one is she does feel the pressure to do a
[21:36.040 --> 21:43.400] lot more it's a life that has come in a new life and a lot needs to be done and along with the pressure
[21:43.400 --> 21:49.960] handling pressures of a job becomes an actual decision point in women's lives and talented women's
[21:49.960 --> 21:58.040] lives as well yeah and then there is the emotional factor of going and that's the maternal instinct
[21:58.040 --> 22:04.840] taking over that I want to be with my child and spend as much time with my child and the negative
[22:04.840 --> 22:11.560] corollary of guilt pangs if you're not adequately there with your child and the rest of the society
[22:11.640 --> 22:17.000] doesn't help I mean if if your mom who's away from your baby and something happens to the baby
[22:17.000 --> 22:22.120] before telling the dad that where were you they'll obviously go and tell the mom that where were you
[22:22.120 --> 22:28.040] and when something happened to the kid because you were away so a lot of these factors go into
[22:28.040 --> 22:34.280] that's the biggest stage when women themselves whether coerced by family or not women themselves
[22:34.280 --> 22:40.120] make the decision to take a break yeah and then what happens is off to the break the return to
[22:40.680 --> 22:47.080] challenge because the basic which the work is environment is changing the even the basic
[22:47.080 --> 22:52.600] technology tools that are available for you to do work in right I mean you earlier used to message
[22:52.600 --> 22:59.880] now you would you're on slack right so just getting earlier you used to use some excel sheets to track
[22:59.880 --> 23:06.600] your projects and GAN charts today you use Jira right so the technological advancement on how you
[23:06.600 --> 23:10.360] do the work then the entire environment of developments that are happening keeping a
[23:10.360 --> 23:15.400] breast of them so women often realize that once they've taken that break when they want to come
[23:15.400 --> 23:20.920] back in it's so hard because they're not a breast of all these shared changes that have happened
[23:21.800 --> 23:28.280] and that that makes it even more difficult so therefore in the career ladder if you look at it
[23:28.280 --> 23:36.200] for women it becomes a very sharp pyramid and oftentimes it feels insurmountable I guess
[23:37.080 --> 23:43.320] and that is the essential glass ceiling which in a way is your answer to the question on the
[23:45.240 --> 23:50.840] women leaders and this is not specific to fintech anywhere that's probably the reason why it hasn't
[23:50.840 --> 23:57.880] happened now coming to the good side of that picture I mean there are a few of us have gone
[23:57.880 --> 24:04.680] through this journey and got here and it really doesn't have to be that hard it's just about how
[24:04.680 --> 24:12.200] you think about it and how you approach it at each of these stages if you approach it right
[24:12.200 --> 24:17.960] and do it right at each of these stages you can get here you can get here by having a balanced life
[24:17.960 --> 24:27.640] too so yeah and I do hope a lot of women are able to see that make those right decisions and get
[24:27.640 --> 24:34.040] there I mean my vision is while in the span of my career be able to actually see a boardroom
[24:34.040 --> 24:39.640] where there is an equal representation of equally talented men and women sitting across the table
[24:39.640 --> 24:45.640] in the boardroom and and that's a matter of course and not an exception yeah this was one of the
[24:45.640 --> 24:51.320] most comprehensive and so I'll explain that so you know on the show at ease thank you how much
[24:51.320 --> 24:57.880] marks do I guess there's no marks just genuine is there a hamper appreciation
[24:58.920 --> 25:02.520] hamper if you would have some competitors here right now
[25:05.080 --> 25:10.920] but we'll do coffee with the radical you also becomes a radical
[25:12.120 --> 25:16.040] yeah it's a nice name I'm wearing also like
[25:16.680 --> 25:21.960] it brings a lot of brightness and cheer
[25:24.120 --> 25:28.920] which yeah that's so well explained and it gave me so much of food for thought that how on each
[25:28.920 --> 25:35.720] levels the decision matters and how it matters in the in the larger picture the reason I said it
[25:35.720 --> 25:42.840] in this way is because anything any phenomenon yeah okay and whether in product design or in
[25:42.920 --> 25:50.040] social impact I mean small to big everything that you see is an outcome of the series of
[25:50.040 --> 25:55.240] events that I'd like to it it is never one thing that has driven it yeah even in product design a
[25:55.240 --> 26:00.600] successful product versus one that is not really like that much by customers it's not one thing
[26:00.600 --> 26:06.440] it's a series of small small small and big things that have been done right by somebody versus a
[26:06.440 --> 26:11.160] series of not so right things that have been may have been done in product design yeah
[26:11.800 --> 26:19.720] that's true so it's a first principles thinking yeah if you will to understand the process that
[26:19.720 --> 26:25.480] leads to something and you know what the first thing on this this I keep saying as well the first
[26:25.480 --> 26:30.680] thing to do is to step back and understand with with a clear head and genuinely try to understand
[26:30.680 --> 26:35.240] and any problem whether it's a business problem or a competitive problem or a consumer problem
[26:35.800 --> 26:42.200] or a social problem is keep peeling the layers of the onion till you really get to what is right
[26:42.200 --> 26:45.640] then you'll be able to solve for it and there is nothing that is unsolvable when you got there
[26:45.640 --> 26:49.560] most of the time we just look at the surface and go and say okay this is what it seems like
[26:49.560 --> 26:54.920] let's solve this it'll take care of everything that's super special that doesn't stay yeah yeah yeah
[26:54.920 --> 27:00.600] that's true it just like a rocket ship you know it has layers of layers and then it needs to
[27:01.160 --> 27:05.400] fall apart to reach to the main position where the actual substance is
[27:05.400 --> 27:08.440] I'm glad you use the word rocket ship we'd like to term revenue it as the rocket
[27:08.440 --> 27:16.120] yeah it matches also with you guys very well but now that you spoke of revenue it
[27:16.120 --> 27:20.920] I'm very interested to know your story of joining revenue to know because it's a star
[27:20.920 --> 27:26.120] in the European region and you're making it a star in India now so tell me how did you end up
[27:26.200 --> 27:30.760] getting this opportunity at revenue and then how did you decide that okay it's time to move
[27:30.760 --> 27:38.840] from lending cut to now building revenue it's not a rocket ship yet we're still a rocket ship
[27:38.840 --> 27:43.640] under manufacture the the take-off you'll have to wait for the take-off to happen but
[27:43.640 --> 27:52.840] yes yes it will happen soon yes it will yes my journey to coming to ravage it like you know I
[27:52.920 --> 27:59.480] mean I spent I'd spent two decades working the first first okay let me
[27:59.480 --> 28:05.000] broadly if I look back on my career I can divide it into three parts the first one third was in
[28:05.000 --> 28:11.960] in banking in traditional banks but I got to do innovative things in those banks like launching
[28:11.960 --> 28:17.880] the first co-branded cards for ICICI then being a part of the team that launched the cards business
[28:17.880 --> 28:24.680] overall for Kotaq that was like the first phase of my career where I think I learned my stripes
[28:24.680 --> 28:31.400] I I call that my learning phase in in doing all of this I I managed to learn what it takes to
[28:31.400 --> 28:39.000] to get into payments yeah so yeah subject matter learning as well as a lot of the things that I share
[28:39.000 --> 28:46.440] now learning management managerial skills or professional skills so hard skills and soft skills
[28:46.440 --> 28:50.840] both I think I learned during that phase then comes the second phase which was the air
[28:50.840 --> 28:57.640] to money phase which was a very defining phase because it was a definitely road not taken choice
[28:57.640 --> 29:04.040] the the typical trodden career park would have been to continue with in banking have a set career
[29:04.040 --> 29:12.920] keep progressing keep keep moving up the banking ladder over time keep doing similar things doing them
[29:13.480 --> 29:20.520] slightly better and and generating a little more business driving a little more innovation in
[29:20.520 --> 29:26.200] products that could have been one one track but deciding to take something that didn't exist like
[29:27.000 --> 29:35.800] talk about the era of the 3 3 1 0 handset right figuring out how to do payments on that
[29:36.520 --> 29:42.440] taking that leap of faith to go and say I want to join the join the team to solution for this was
[29:42.520 --> 29:49.160] and then taking it to 20 million customers over five years and then and then becoming a mainstream
[29:49.160 --> 29:54.840] product that that is my defining second phase if you will on on seeing that it's possible and that
[29:54.840 --> 30:00.120] gave me the confidence that it's possible that you can visualize something you have a vision and if
[30:00.120 --> 30:05.800] you apply your mind to it can happen yeah and then the whole ecosystem is if you're convinced and you
[30:05.800 --> 30:11.400] have a plan and that's realistic it's hard work but the ecosystem also gets convinced to make
[30:11.400 --> 30:17.320] it happen then the third phase is the is the tech world because that that is what we're
[30:17.320 --> 30:24.360] speaking of during 2015 consumer tech so then I I moved to Flipkart at that time to help set up
[30:24.360 --> 30:30.840] the marketplace business for Flipkart well things are realized while at Flipkart we got in
[30:31.480 --> 30:36.040] first hundred thousand and two hundred thousand sellers on the platform it's brilliant numbers
[30:36.680 --> 30:44.360] so many small businesses wanting to sell on an e-commerce platform and be able to sell anywhere
[30:44.360 --> 30:50.840] in the country and then came time of big billion days so so the Indian e-commerce system and then
[30:50.840 --> 30:55.880] you would probably relate to it as a shopper right a lot of when your congregates are shopping
[30:55.880 --> 31:02.040] around that festive season and now the discount season but the the Amazon great Indian sale and
[31:02.040 --> 31:07.640] the Flipkart big billion days we had to ask the sellers to participate in that at least 50 percent
[31:07.640 --> 31:13.480] of the sellers were interested in participating and at Flipkart we had built a predictive demand
[31:13.480 --> 31:18.600] planning engine as well where we could based on historical track record of browsers and searches
[31:18.600 --> 31:26.760] be able to predict projected demand for each SK or each product which was listed over there
[31:26.760 --> 31:32.520] it's a fairly sophisticated engine but so you could match that a platform like a Flipkart
[31:32.520 --> 31:37.240] could actually tell you how much business a seller is going to get okay and you had the sellers who
[31:37.240 --> 31:44.840] were interested in enlisting the products where was the gap the gap was in working capital finance
[31:45.720 --> 31:50.760] because the aspiration was there the demand was there but you went across the typical lenders
[31:51.400 --> 31:57.080] again do you know what percentage of the sellers the the traditional lenders could give a working
[31:57.080 --> 32:05.800] capital loan too? Very very less less than that. No that wasn't as bad it was about 13 percent of
[32:05.800 --> 32:11.080] the sellers but 97 sorry 87 percent of the sellers were interested in participating couldn't get
[32:11.080 --> 32:17.960] access to our capital loan and then there that was the genesis at that time of companies like
[32:18.600 --> 32:25.160] capital float and lending capital float now Axio who started thinking about a model
[32:25.160 --> 32:33.960] to be able to give loans and working capital loans to such sellers. Long story short
[32:33.960 --> 32:43.400] lending card launched by giving loans to sellers on the marketplace and then my quintessential
[32:43.400 --> 32:47.800] passion for finance and the and getting to the actual need that has to resolve for
[32:47.800 --> 32:54.360] came forth that the logical next thing that I really wanted to do was to do that for myself
[32:54.360 --> 33:01.560] and at scale so one thing led to another lending card got their series C funding happening so they
[33:01.560 --> 33:05.240] they had plans to do it at scale and I got the opportunity to join lending card then
[33:05.960 --> 33:11.320] and lead their business to scale that up and then obviously we made the loans available not just to
[33:12.040 --> 33:20.360] subcut sellers Amazon sellers your oil small hotels your isomato spiggy small restaurants
[33:20.360 --> 33:28.440] your make-my-trip travel agents so we actually grew by lending to this SME ecosystem
[33:28.440 --> 33:33.480] help build a 3000 crore book so by that time if you if you figure out in the thread of the journey
[33:33.480 --> 33:43.720] I had kind of on the hard-scale side been able to I knew payments I mean I think I know payments
[33:46.360 --> 33:54.680] I knew lending on us so so the combination but there wasn't a combination where I could then take
[33:54.680 --> 34:02.280] it and and build everything together in one place and that's when coincidentally and some of these
[34:02.360 --> 34:06.680] things are probably pre-ordained coincidence so that was around the time when revenue
[34:06.680 --> 34:12.120] was the first global company thinking of coming into India and they were looking for a CEO to
[34:12.120 --> 34:17.400] set it up for them and they approached me we got into conversations and I think
[34:19.000 --> 34:25.320] so revenue has a very structured recruitment during the whole scars and now I know now I'm
[34:25.320 --> 34:30.520] on the other side getting them to do it right who scars through the industry to find people
[34:30.520 --> 34:33.800] that would match what they're looking for and proactively reach out to them
[34:34.920 --> 34:38.360] if such people are not interested in chasing them now until they're interested because I think
[34:38.360 --> 34:43.880] revenue to also knows what what what we want yeah right now it's a little easier because I think
[34:43.880 --> 34:50.040] people also want to work for revenue but at that time we had to do that so yeah so those
[34:50.040 --> 34:56.360] folks from the revenue tiring team in the UK had figured out a set I wouldn't say I was the only
[34:56.440 --> 35:01.160] one they figured out a set of people in India that they potentially want to talk to in order to
[35:01.160 --> 35:06.280] see which of them they want to do and trust the mantle of setting up their operations in India too
[35:06.840 --> 35:12.440] and I feel honored that they felt that I could do the job and that that's what I've been doing for
[35:12.440 --> 35:22.120] the last two years our revolute hiring process by the way is is very very stringent we have initially
[35:22.120 --> 35:27.560] what is called a very close screening round which is typically done by the people and hiring
[35:27.560 --> 35:33.880] team where we we match candidates against petty tight screening criteria of what we're looking
[35:33.880 --> 35:40.520] for for every day then you go through a functional skills round where you are assessed for purely
[35:40.520 --> 35:45.080] your functional knowledge on the function that you're supposed to do handle and in that interestingly
[35:45.080 --> 35:50.360] we take away experience we take away years of experience we actually take away even the names
[35:50.360 --> 35:55.000] of companies that you worked at because we actually take away things that could potentially
[35:55.000 --> 36:02.760] introduce bias into the process because if you think that okay somebody worked for xyz company
[36:02.760 --> 36:07.560] versus somebody worked for ABC company you already have a preconceived notion that the one who
[36:07.560 --> 36:12.600] worked for one company versus another could be better or worse if you take the company name away
[36:12.600 --> 36:18.120] you're genuinely judging that person on the functional skills that he or she brings to the
[36:18.200 --> 36:23.080] table so that's one in terms of functional skills round where
[36:27.160 --> 36:31.240] they actually assess for your knowledge in your own domain then we have something called a
[36:31.240 --> 36:36.440] problem solver okay which is quintessential case study style but a real-time case study
[36:36.440 --> 36:42.680] solving over an interview where you're typically given a case or a general real-life business
[36:42.680 --> 36:48.200] problem which continues to remain a business problem within revolute
[36:50.920 --> 36:58.280] and typically something from out of your domain and the reason for doing that is you want to
[36:58.280 --> 37:05.000] assess somebody's thought process and problem solving orientation rather than specific answers
[37:05.000 --> 37:09.400] so a lot of people who have had experience or seen something in their own domain if you give
[37:09.400 --> 37:14.200] them a case around that you can potentially ease your answer because you've seen that happen
[37:14.200 --> 37:20.440] but if you're given a problem statement from a different domain yeah it actually helps you assess
[37:20.440 --> 37:26.360] that person's approach towards a problem solving and in that interestingly we do not look for the
[37:26.360 --> 37:33.880] quality of answers we look for the quality of questions so that's the other thing that goes into
[37:33.960 --> 37:41.720] my evaluation philosophy of people as well a lot of times the quality of an individual comes across
[37:41.720 --> 37:46.920] more through the quality of questions they ask rather than just the quality of answers they give
[37:46.920 --> 37:50.760] if they ask the right questions it's a matter of time before they'll arrive at the right answer
[37:50.760 --> 37:56.120] well all my questions so far you seem to be doing a good job
[37:57.000 --> 38:03.160] because in your audience you have to know how good your questions work and i've got in the
[38:03.160 --> 38:10.440] tight spot of answering them why am i doing this that's the essential question oh my god
[38:11.640 --> 38:17.720] so coming next to sir that was the other um what do you say studies do you ask them about
[38:17.720 --> 38:22.760] which is non-work related no no it's not related to their direct area of work so for example
[38:22.760 --> 38:28.280] somebody could be interviewing for my head of operations and i could be asking them a marketing
[38:28.280 --> 38:35.160] and growth related question somebody could be interviewing for my people management role and i
[38:35.160 --> 38:42.840] would ask them a budgeting and finance related problem so that's what i mean by from a slightly
[38:42.840 --> 38:49.720] different domain yeah so even in my process for example while they were trying to identify
[38:49.720 --> 38:55.400] a ceo for the india business the questions were all around outside of india the areas where i
[38:55.400 --> 38:59.960] wouldn't have had exposure to how would you deal with these situations in different places that
[38:59.960 --> 39:08.520] you don't have so that sort of the philosophy to be able to assess somebody's approach to identifying
[39:08.520 --> 39:13.240] and then solving a problem and that's the skill set that makes the difference yeah and then when
[39:13.320 --> 39:20.760] you cut gone through all of this you have a bar razor round uh where you so we have five values
[39:20.760 --> 39:25.240] which we stand for a revenue and one of the things that i would go and say even now and
[39:26.280 --> 39:31.240] i think i'm 100% matched with the values because now even from my lens one of my reasons for joining
[39:31.240 --> 39:36.440] revenue it was the alignment of values yeah actually so the first one is on getting it done
[39:37.080 --> 39:42.760] it's an orientation to ensure that something that you picked up actually gets done
[39:44.120 --> 39:49.800] and it may sound easy but it's it's saying a lot because a lot of times a lot of things which
[39:49.800 --> 39:57.400] are started out can get waylaid because of that sheer doggedness and perseverance that is needed
[39:57.400 --> 40:02.360] in a person to get things done especially when there are problems so that's one value and
[40:03.320 --> 40:07.720] and in that interview round since you asked me the questions are typically around assessing
[40:07.720 --> 40:14.200] real world examples where you demonstrated that yeah and um and the interviewers are
[40:15.000 --> 40:19.400] we so we have training of interviewers internally by the way interviewers are trained to assess
[40:19.400 --> 40:23.800] through the quality of the answers whether the get it done orientation came through or not
[40:23.800 --> 40:31.160] or anything so we have our internal process of so being qualified as a bar razor interviewer
[40:31.160 --> 40:36.120] itself is a big deal in her system by the way yes by the way one of her colleagues here was one
[40:36.120 --> 40:44.280] of the first few hires in HR department for revenue she is from NUS yeah Singapore and then she was
[40:44.280 --> 40:48.840] very excited by the way when you were going to come she said i was their employee and then
[40:49.480 --> 40:53.160] she's moved out here now so i don't ask her when she left
[40:55.240 --> 40:59.800] the other thing ironically that seems to be happening from two years ago when i joined in
[40:59.880 --> 41:06.520] April 2021 when a lot of people in India did not know revenue so like where are you joining
[41:06.520 --> 41:13.480] okay where have you joined okay what do they do yeah from those questions to today if somebody's
[41:13.480 --> 41:20.680] worked at revenue that seems to have become cv value you know so yeah i mean in a way it's good
[41:20.680 --> 41:25.560] if you're grooming good people who the industry values uh what's wrong with that yeah exactly
[41:26.520 --> 41:31.320] it's just a testament to your work place and culture but how good it was
[41:32.360 --> 41:38.280] well i certainly hope so and as only we can hope we can keep it up so the first one is get it done
[41:38.280 --> 41:44.040] the second one is an attitude is never settled so that's the second thing we look out for
[41:44.600 --> 41:50.440] the quality of not settling for the second best alternative or not settling till you've got
[41:50.440 --> 41:56.120] the right solution whether in product design or a business problem answer or an attitude
[41:56.120 --> 42:02.440] to settle for second best so we look for people who are not going to settle not going to compromise
[42:02.440 --> 42:07.160] and push the envelope till you get to the right answer the right solution and whatever area it
[42:07.160 --> 42:13.960] might be so the second value is never settled the third value is think deeper so the ability to as
[42:13.960 --> 42:18.520] we were talking about how many layers of the onion can you feel how deep can you go when you're
[42:18.520 --> 42:24.280] thinking about a problem both vertically and horizontally yeah so how deep can you go into
[42:24.280 --> 42:30.520] specific problem and how horizontal can you go in terms of figuring out the impact on multiple
[42:30.520 --> 42:36.520] other things of what you're doing so third is the think deeper the fourth is is dream team
[42:37.400 --> 42:45.800] how good you are as a team player and how collaborative you are along with how high a bar do you hold
[42:45.800 --> 42:52.040] for yourself and your team yeah that whether you are okay to tolerate mediocrity or not
[42:52.600 --> 42:57.800] or whether you will push yourself and push your team along with you and pull your team up along
[42:57.800 --> 43:03.960] with you and make it into truly a dream team and not just another team yeah so the dream team is
[43:03.960 --> 43:11.400] the fourth value and the last one is deliver wow and orientation to do something which is beyond
[43:11.400 --> 43:18.760] what has been defined so yeah do something whether again in in product design or in business growth
[43:19.560 --> 43:25.720] or in people practices or in any area that you may be working in the urge to deliver something
[43:25.720 --> 43:32.520] which is a wow yeah which is a first time in the in the industry right or where consumers sit back
[43:32.520 --> 43:38.600] and love you for it so those are the five things that are assessed in the bars or interview so we put
[43:38.600 --> 43:47.560] a lot of thought into our process of hiring so that was kind of my experience for leadership roles
[43:48.360 --> 43:53.240] I mean in my case as well you have a simple problem solving what I explained as a simple
[43:53.240 --> 43:57.800] problem solving earlier the case study have a complex problem solving as well where the problems
[43:57.800 --> 44:02.760] that are thrown to your more complex in nature and then you have a people management and hiring
[44:02.760 --> 44:07.640] round about what is your own hiring philosophy and building a team philosophy and managing
[44:07.640 --> 44:12.440] people philosophy yeah again how how high is the bar that you hold for your own team
[44:13.320 --> 44:19.640] how will you make that process happen and the other thing is how in in my kind of a case
[44:19.640 --> 44:25.240] how will you industrialize that process yeah today we are 2000 employees in India from the first
[44:25.240 --> 44:33.400] five employees in in April 2021 to in two and a half years time over 2000 mark while keeping the
[44:33.400 --> 44:40.120] process this tight and the hiring bar high it's not just about doing it ad hoc in one of cases
[44:40.120 --> 44:46.600] it's about industrializing that process so what's your orientation towards creating frameworks out of
[44:46.600 --> 44:51.880] what you think about it and varying it and so that's on the people hiring hiring and people
[44:51.880 --> 45:01.800] manage quite unique it is unique and which is why yeah I mean getting a job in revenue it is
[45:01.880 --> 45:06.680] not a not a joke so yeah which is one of my colleagues for making it this
[45:06.680 --> 45:13.240] and I'm seriously proud of each and every one of the employees who who have come in and
[45:14.280 --> 45:17.800] and therefore I think we we've actually managed to put a dream team together
[45:17.800 --> 45:21.560] and yes that's probably why the industry also values people who are working at
[45:21.560 --> 45:26.360] revenue but what we would love to believe is at our own rocket ship we give the kind of opportunity
[45:26.360 --> 45:31.080] for people to create the impact so that they choose to continue to remain here and work for this
[45:31.080 --> 45:38.440] vision yeah the world is always open for anybody yeah I love how you're taking the world rocket
[45:38.440 --> 45:44.760] ship with you well if people get a chance to board a rocket ship and if they say no to it
[45:51.000 --> 45:55.640] we'll come to a rocket fire round and they have some really good thing they really need to give
[45:55.640 --> 46:02.200] me a hamper if I do well on the rapid fire and the you to give me another meeting with you
[46:02.200 --> 46:10.600] to for me to give me the help of a parama part two yeah well depends on how many people watch it
[46:10.600 --> 46:16.840] whether you come back to me is a parama people like it so so I want to parama part two I loved it
[46:16.840 --> 46:22.440] so even I am enjoying this conversation and I've actually enjoyed the conversation yeah
[46:23.160 --> 46:25.640] love to figure out another time and we can continue the chat
[46:25.640 --> 46:32.920] yes but starting with the rapid fire watch now but what's the best and the worst piece of advice
[46:32.920 --> 46:40.200] that you've ever gotten best piece of advice first be yourselves
[46:44.600 --> 46:48.280] never apologize for who you are what you do what you want to do
[46:48.440 --> 46:57.720] that's something I got fairly early on in life and in my career as well and again I'm going to
[46:57.720 --> 47:04.440] link this back to the woman topic a lot of times not just women even men do things in order to feel
[47:04.440 --> 47:11.480] accepted or feel liked so the best piece of advice that I've had is be yourself do things that feel
[47:11.480 --> 47:19.720] right to you and things will fall in place yeah worst piece of advice it's actually harder to think
[47:19.720 --> 47:27.320] of worst piece no I can tell you worst piece of advice was on campus dampers recruitment
[47:29.480 --> 47:33.720] take a consulting job with a big four because it pays you the most and is most glamorous
[47:33.880 --> 47:41.400] ah that was um again remains to be the worst and right I am okay sorry to my
[47:42.680 --> 47:50.440] big four big four friends the law offense but uh no I mean there are careers for different people
[47:50.440 --> 47:55.960] different people are suited to different jobs but but if people make it look like Bollywood
[47:55.960 --> 47:59.960] glamour is from the outside but they don't talk about the realities which happen it's not just
[48:00.040 --> 48:05.720] that so there's a tendency okay to to draw the I mean go on the garden part so on on campus
[48:06.360 --> 48:12.600] in these schools in particular it's it's still this this notion of if you're good you should
[48:12.600 --> 48:19.160] be in an in a in a consulting job or in an investment banking job or you should be the the highest
[48:19.160 --> 48:24.520] placement on campus where you've got the highest package and that's like a badge value but what
[48:24.520 --> 48:28.920] happens is if you put those as your goals and people will advise you to do that and that that's
[48:29.000 --> 48:34.760] an advice like you said which still remains if you do that you close your eyes and your world
[48:34.760 --> 48:39.480] due to the real opportunities which are out there which has set you up for a successful career
[48:39.960 --> 48:45.880] through making an actual difference so the choice I mean the reason I say that I was
[48:45.880 --> 48:50.520] worsted and I'm glad I didn't go over that and did not heed that I got the opportunity to
[48:51.400 --> 48:59.240] always choose the road not taken yeah so I mean the Robert Ross poem right um two roads I was
[48:59.240 --> 49:05.320] in a in a yellowwood and sorry I could not travel both yeah me one traveler long I stood
[49:05.320 --> 49:09.640] looked down one as far as I could to very bent in the undergrowth do you remember these like
[49:10.760 --> 49:17.160] I yeah the other things I did get a chance to cultivate is is a good memory and that's the
[49:17.240 --> 49:22.440] other thing that's needed so let me ask you in the memory how many names of the 2000 employees
[49:22.440 --> 49:30.440] do you remember I think I know a lot of names not just names okay I can tell you this I have
[49:30.440 --> 49:36.200] an eye for observing things with stand out I know the stickers people put on their laptops oh so I
[49:36.200 --> 49:40.760] can identify from the laptop on a particular table yeah the employees know that oh he or she has
[49:40.760 --> 49:45.960] come into office today okay actually that that you could call it a quirk of mine but I actually
[49:45.960 --> 49:53.240] think that I for detail and the eye for observation is a very very important thing whether at work again
[49:53.240 --> 49:57.560] go back to whether you're designing a product or knowing your employee or within your family or
[49:57.560 --> 50:03.080] in your home I'm going to translate this to the home I mean my kind of life I'm traveling I'm out
[50:03.080 --> 50:07.800] at work all of that yeah but if something has run out in the kitchen I will still be able to spot
[50:07.800 --> 50:14.200] it when I go back now and my domestic health actually says man you were out of time this week
[50:14.280 --> 50:18.600] can you come back how do you know that this has gone down it's because I kind of make the effort
[50:19.320 --> 50:27.320] to and it requires effort yeah okay and one of it requires mindfulness it requires to be in there
[50:27.320 --> 50:32.920] in that moment actually absorb everything that's around you and when you make the effort to do that
[50:32.920 --> 50:39.720] it'll it'll remain yeah more often than not are we as busy human beings have a tendency to have a
[50:39.720 --> 50:44.600] mind flat out when you're walking into the room you could be thinking of a dozen other things
[50:44.600 --> 50:48.760] problems going on etc things you have to take care of after you move up like when I'm talking to you
[50:48.760 --> 50:53.560] I'm telling you right now I don't know whether you feel it but I do have meetings lined up after this
[50:53.560 --> 50:58.680] I could have spent that I'm thinking about oh I'm getting delayed I have a meeting to get to after
[50:58.680 --> 51:03.640] this what should I be saying in that meeting you know it could be there in your head it's natural
[51:03.720 --> 51:12.920] but I don't I'm trying I'm right now I'm thinking about as well is this conversation this this room
[51:12.920 --> 51:18.440] and yeah and I've noticed even that standing in the corner and if next time I come back here and
[51:18.440 --> 51:25.320] that is that is actually somewhere else I'll tell you oh you moved up on it it's consciously
[51:25.320 --> 51:30.680] cultivated that an imprint is left on your on your mind and if you do that it translates in
[51:30.680 --> 51:34.280] different ways I mean if somebody shows me an excel sheet with a business plan I remember the
[51:34.280 --> 51:38.040] last number and if somebody's changed that number next time around so I'm like okay what what led
[51:38.040 --> 51:42.920] to this change oh my god if somebody's presented a document had something in a certain form and said
[51:42.920 --> 51:46.600] something in that document and if that's missing in an iteration I mean like why did that go away
[51:46.600 --> 51:52.440] did you rethink that yeah like you know it it it manifests itself in different form your you
[51:52.520 --> 51:57.480] your own should know this that you have read the 120 page document very very carefully
[51:59.880 --> 52:06.360] that you observe so much and you have an eye for details so yes that I would say to anybody
[52:06.360 --> 52:13.080] that more than so so hard skills are in their own place but you need to cultivate skills like
[52:13.080 --> 52:22.360] this which is curiosity to learn things openness to try new things out observation the genuine
[52:22.440 --> 52:28.600] effort made to observe things that are around you and eye for detail including level of detail
[52:28.600 --> 52:32.840] in what you're absorbing as well as what you're producing in terms of your your work or your
[52:32.840 --> 52:39.400] output and mindfulness just being fully into whatever you're doing at any given point yeah
[52:40.200 --> 52:45.800] so that always stands you in good state anybody that's true that's true but
[52:45.800 --> 52:49.240] and next question would be like what would be an alternative career for you
[52:50.200 --> 52:52.280] actually can I pick two alternative players
[52:54.120 --> 52:56.040] already I'm solid backup plan though
[52:57.000 --> 53:04.920] backup plans uh these are things I actually uh I started to when I have the time to do it
[53:04.920 --> 53:09.960] one is an author oh and now we know how you remember the poem so well
[53:11.320 --> 53:18.840] and the other is a teacher okay so um what what subject more management actually
[53:19.240 --> 53:27.000] okay leadership leadership and management yes uh author I have had my share of experiences um
[53:27.560 --> 53:34.760] and uh I would love to pen them down in in a book for it to remain for posterity
[53:34.760 --> 53:40.760] what are you waiting for time that never comes due to mixed inspiration
[53:40.760 --> 53:45.480] I sure but uh they're prioritized so one of the things that you need to do to make time is
[53:45.480 --> 53:49.880] ruthless prioritization yeah there and there are two aspects of prioritization the one is
[53:49.880 --> 53:53.080] simultaneous prioritization the other sequence should prioritize yeah
[53:53.080 --> 53:57.480] simultaneous is at any given point of time right now if I'm prioritizing vena that means
[53:57.480 --> 54:01.000] I've deprioritized everything else yeah so which is at any given point of time
[54:01.000 --> 54:06.760] prioritize what's most important to you in in a in a rank order of hierarchy the other
[54:06.760 --> 54:11.640] sequential prioritization what is most important to you at all point in time right right now
[54:11.640 --> 54:16.440] what is most important to me building this rocket ship and getting it two things actually
[54:16.440 --> 54:22.680] yeah yes having this rocket ship not just take off and then combust an air but have this rocket
[54:22.680 --> 54:28.040] ship actually take off and yeah I mean a great time that we're doing this right after the jandria
[54:28.040 --> 54:34.760] to actually have a successful pandemic in the land revolution's rocket ship successfully in
[54:34.760 --> 54:39.880] India is is what I'm certainly focused on on the professional friend and on the personal
[54:39.880 --> 54:46.040] fronts since you made mention to have my eight-year-old grow up to be a good human being yeah nice
[54:46.040 --> 54:54.200] and who would you call your mentor my mentor I think I mentioned that the yes if you're watching
[54:54.200 --> 55:01.880] this the CEO of Eirtel money who I joined because um one like I said he had the vision to see
[55:01.880 --> 55:07.240] something which nobody else did and the ability to get people like us to be able to see that vision
[55:07.240 --> 55:12.120] and buy in it and and join him in making that happen that's something that I try to do right now
[55:12.120 --> 55:18.040] I mean revolution didn't exist in India right so it's in my head what I want to make of
[55:18.040 --> 55:25.000] revolution in India and it's for me to be able to paint that picture for other people to be able
[55:25.000 --> 55:29.720] to see that vision or as much part of it as they can and then decide to be a part of it
[55:29.720 --> 55:38.840] so I've learned that from him second she was an absolute hard task master I mean his bar was
[55:39.560 --> 55:45.000] so high and the thing about a high bar then and I realized this in hindsight as well and
[55:45.000 --> 55:48.920] I'm sharing this with people who want to learn from other people's experiences as we spoke about it
[55:49.880 --> 55:56.440] is at that time there were times when we would feel so irritated I mean how can he be pushing us I
[55:56.520 --> 56:02.280] did this this is good enough right how can he be pushing us to make this even better right
[56:03.000 --> 56:12.280] but now I realize that he saw something in us that we didn't at that time and that is what made us go
[56:12.920 --> 56:19.480] beyond what we already knew we were capable of to do something extra energy and that gentleman has
[56:20.280 --> 56:28.360] groomed four CEOs in India today which was I won't name the other CEOs but I mean I'm talking about
[56:28.360 --> 56:34.680] you Shri Rana I mean and then those of you CEOs if you're watching you know if you come from as we
[56:34.680 --> 56:45.240] called the Shri Rana Academy of CEOs and yeah so he was the person who so who had this bar of
[56:45.320 --> 56:51.880] excellence to to have people deliver at a different level to what even they thought possible so
[56:51.880 --> 56:58.200] I keep telling this to my team as well that one of my jobs is to help you become the best version
[56:58.200 --> 57:05.320] of who you can be yeah that's a true leader and if I if I can help people achieve that that's
[57:05.880 --> 57:12.360] ultimate redemption that's a reward for me yes yeah so that's the second thing that I learned from him
[57:12.360 --> 57:19.560] as a mentor and the third thing was equality as a male he was a male leader but he was one of
[57:19.560 --> 57:26.760] the first people that I saw more than a decade ago who would do things to give a Philip to talented
[57:26.760 --> 57:34.040] women potential leaders that he saw in order to enable them to to perform at the same level
[57:34.040 --> 57:41.640] and be able to deliver at the same level that he thought they were capable of yeah so I actually
[57:41.640 --> 57:45.880] had this eight year old son that you're talking when he was born eight years ago during that time
[57:45.880 --> 57:54.760] oh and I was there and so okay I joined back at work um three months exactly three months after
[57:54.760 --> 57:58.680] me so those were the days when you got a three month official maternity break this is before the
[57:58.680 --> 58:04.760] six month maternity break era and we will now give six months yes we give six months we are good
[58:04.760 --> 58:08.440] on paternity as well because one of the other things okay since we are on that particular topic
[58:08.440 --> 58:15.320] I believe that I do believe child care is not the only prerogative of the mother yeah right and
[58:15.320 --> 58:23.960] paternity break is a way of helping men realize that there are responsibilities that they also have
[58:23.960 --> 58:29.640] towards their wife and towards their newborn child and get them to obviously one is the joy of
[58:29.640 --> 58:34.280] spending time with their newborn child and the second take on certain responsibilities so that
[58:34.360 --> 58:40.280] that is is set up early on to create a hopefully more equitable household in the next generation
[58:40.280 --> 58:48.280] than what earlier generations of two eyes has been used to so yeah yeah so coming back to just
[58:48.280 --> 58:54.840] finishing off that maternity story so you had a three month break at that time yeah you had the
[58:54.840 --> 58:59.640] option to extend that break with as a leave without pay subsequently and most people did that which
[58:59.640 --> 59:05.320] is what led to the six month during the first place because you don't feel fully ready you're
[59:05.320 --> 59:10.200] not physically fully ready to come back to work before six months when having had a child but after
[59:10.200 --> 59:14.680] the three month threshold a person like me becomes impatient that I want to be in touch with what
[59:14.680 --> 59:23.000] is going on at the workplace at work in the industry etc and that workplace created the opportunity for
[59:23.000 --> 59:29.320] me to come back with flexi working and that this is this is a time when it was a full-fledged
[59:30.600 --> 59:35.960] work environment a full-fledged office environment it was in the hybrid days hybrid days today makes
[59:35.960 --> 59:41.640] it easier yeah right but at that time you had this so creating a flexi work environment for me
[59:41.640 --> 59:45.800] to come in for a few hours go back so I would come in for two hours in the first half and then two
[59:45.800 --> 59:54.920] has in the second half and creating an environment that was okay yeah was was brilliant and another
[59:54.920 --> 59:59.720] thing I can share with you and at that time I mean this was one of the first that was happening yeah
[59:59.720 --> 01:00:04.520] there were people who actually said that we're working eight and hours a day she's working for
[01:00:04] hours how can you do this this is biased but I remember the leader then actually saying publicly
[01:00:12] what she brings to the table in four hours a lot of people don't in four weeks oh oh that
[01:00:18] everybody up so again I'll go back and tell this to to even women um there is and this I want to
[01:00:26] talk about because sometimes there's a sense of entertainment okay and in so sometimes in an
[01:00:32] effort to be equitable towards women companies also tend to bend over backwards right and that
[01:00:38] should not be done right so even women should aspire to bring as much value as they can
[01:00:45] every moment that they're spending to the workplace and if you do then don't shy away from putting
[01:00:51] your hand up and saying okay can you then make arrangements to accommodate off for whatever
[01:00:56] needs I may have and particularly at that maternity stage so it has to be a two-way street because
[01:01:01] you work both ways yeah it cannot be an unfair advantage to anybody yeah but if you bring value
[01:01:07] to the table and then you put your hand up I think companies should be willing to make arrangements
[01:01:13] to come yeah and I'm so glad you're mentored oh you know did that being a male leader in such a
[01:01:18] big company yeah and more so coming from a male leader yeah yeah exactly what do you think has
[01:01:26] been the cost of your success time yeah uh yeah the one thing if you ask me that I am poor and time
[01:01:35] poor yeah so I yes I have to balance time between my work commitments at this level
[01:01:44] child-reading responsibilities at at this level at this stage parents health starts deteriorating
[01:01:51] so being there to take care of them as well and then ensuring at least bare minimum physical
[01:01:57] activity to remain fit because that's the other thing that that suffers in this but
[01:02:02] the other thing I believe is uh that my fitness does compass because if I don't stay healthy I
[01:02:08] don't stay fit everything else collapses around me whatever I'm talking about so but in between
[01:02:13] doing all of this just sheer leisure time to just put my feet up and do nothing that's something
[01:02:21] that is missing right now yeah but like you said you're an impatient person so I don't think so
[01:02:29] I will say you're not here like that I yes I am an active person so it's not like I can I can
[01:02:36] put my feet up and do nothing for a long time I do get restless after that but yeah there are
[01:02:41] also times when I feel that yeah that luxury would be like like today after yesterday and have
[01:02:47] somewhere to go after this but I would have loved to have been able to put my feet up for
[01:02:51] some time yeah but but what is that one thing you wish you knew much earlier in your life
[01:02:59] that like what you think to yourself that how did someone not tell me this earlier or how did
[01:03:04] I not get to know this um the fact that people and how you are with them is one of the most
[01:03:13] important things right um when you want to do some piece of work it's how good you are
[01:03:24] that makes a difference when you want people to do a lot of things how good you are with people
[01:03:32] is what makes that difference yeah but I wish somebody had told me that earlier earlier I
[01:03:38] used to think it was just about me about how good I am yeah at my work is what is going to count but
[01:03:46] I realize now that that is just one part of it how good you are with people that you work with is
[01:03:53] equally if not more important in getting things done and I wish I knew that early on I could have
[01:03:59] had a better head start really better late than that one yeah exactly and because I sure is named
[01:04:05] wiping out the norm I'd like to ask you for one instance where you think you have like done the
[01:04:11] norm in some way or the other I would like to think that I've done that multiple times
[01:04:17] big um okay let me pick the earliest that I can think of and the latest that I can think of
[01:04:23] but the earliest I can think of is you actually given me a nice layer over this question which I
[01:04:28] can ask others also in my interview that I'd love to compare notes it's good yeah
[01:04:33] cool people actually uh earliest goes far as far back as in school so uh I happen to be a school
[01:04:41] topper oh yeah but then you expect school toppers to go to their engineering huh and I did not
[01:04:54] I I went to do a three-year graduation with honors in physics so physics is a subject that I loved
[01:05:02] and I still do by the way and I did that but then rocket ship is the nice word that we use today
[01:05:08] absolutely you see I love that but um the point is it's not that choice but what led to that choice
[01:05:18] is what I wanted to talk about which is wiping out the norms at that time if you will the norm was
[01:05:22] that okay you're a bright student who's got in their high 90s you get to you sit for IIT entrance
[01:05:28] exams and you get to the IITs was the standard norm not choosing to sit further that entrance exam
[01:05:34] was was was a choice yeah uh and I can tell you this right now I think everybody so including my
[01:05:39] school principal was taken aback because the school also likes their uh brighter students to get into
[01:05:45] those institutes and they feel proud about it too they asked my uh parents and um I remember
[01:05:52] this from my father my father's been another instrument in my life by the way who's my both my
[01:05:57] parents and my grandpa and my family has always believed that I can do anything that I set my mind
[01:06:03] and I'm really fortunate to have that belief and faith of my family um but yeah when I wasn't
[01:06:09] sitting for it my father actually sat me down separately one day and because so many questions
[01:06:14] were being asked why isn't she doing it she said she really know what you're doing like everybody
[01:06:18] seems to believe that you can and you should you you don't want to do it and I remember telling him
[01:06:24] that um if I uh do uh I go to one of the engineering colleges it'll take me four years to get to I am
[01:06:33] if I do a three-year degree course I'll get to I am in school okay uh yeah you could say I was I was
[01:06:41] clear I was still clear about your last destination and I knew I wanted the take to go there exactly
[01:06:47] so that was in a way wiping out the norm but you know knowing where you wanted to go and and follow
[01:06:52] that other parts together and the latest is yes wiping out the norm when I decided to take on the
[01:06:57] challenge of bringing Revolut into this market. All right again I had a good career in the Indian
[01:07:04] fintech ecosystem I could have worked with any of the Indian companies as of now there is no global
[01:07:11] fintech which is really landed and made a mark in India. Revolut at that time was uh not really a
[01:07:17] known name within the Indian ecosystem it was if you think about it now it was a very difficult
[01:07:23] choice to make in a way that you know you want to take a relatively unknown brand which is a
[01:07:28] global brand you don't even know whether you'll be able to get them to land or succeed here but
[01:07:33] to me the answer came really easily that I want to do this because this will make a
[01:07:38] material difference yeah that's the other wiping out the norm of uh taking making the unpredictable
[01:07:44] choices that's so interesting then I will conclude this with the last two lines of the Robert Frost
[01:07:49] poem how I shall be telling this with a sigh somewhere ages and ages hence two roads diverged
[01:07:55] in a wood yeah and I I took the one less traveled by and that has made all the difference right yeah
[01:08:03] wow I love how you concluded it with that line you know it really synced in with the question I
[01:08:08] asked and with the theme of this show so thanks for making it so lovely you know sometimes it's not
[01:08:16] the interview world but the person sitting next who really makes it happen and adds the glitter
[01:08:22] to the goal so thanks for adding all the shiny uh you know next with your answers and giving your
[01:08:29] time really enjoyed speaking with you Parama good thanks for having me over once again Radhika and
[01:08:35] yes I completely enjoyed this conversation uh for most of it I actually forgot that it was being
[01:08:42] recorded somewhere else just in the in the flow of conversations the put us to you for bringing
[01:08:47] it out and making me comfortable making it so comfortable to to have um what was a good conversation
[01:08:55] yeah like you said curiosity takes you places the curiosity takes me uh you know to places where you
[01:09:03] yourself didn't imagine yourself to go you know yesterday only someone told me that you ignited
[01:09:08] certain light light bulbs within me which would not bright enough because you walk on a certain
[01:09:14] treadmill every day right doing the work that you're doing so a conversation like these really take
[01:09:19] you in the past and make you think about the experiences that you have and also taking the
[01:09:23] future to tell you that what is certain thing that you're missing out on and are still yet on your
[01:09:28] list and yet to be done so yeah I'm glad that it happened to you as well and you loved it thank you
[01:09:38] thank you for listening to this conversation I hope it allowed you to dive deep into the mind of a
[01:09:46] senior woman leader we are hopeful to see more such women leaders in the future who have typed
[01:09:51] out the norm if you loved this episode please share it with your friends who might be fundraising
[01:09:56] or building a business also tell us if you have any questions that you would like us to ask our
[01:10:01] women leaders till then stay tuned for our episodes where we speak with global women leaders from
[01:10:06] countries like Palestine, Argentina, Mexico, America, India and others.
[01:10:20] Thank you for listening wife we hope this conversation was helpful and allowed you to deep dive into
[01:10:25] the mind of a senior woman investor we're certain that we will soon see more women wiping out the norm
[01:10:31] and becoming senior leaders in investing if you think you derived great learnings from us in
[01:10:36] this podcast please share it with your friends who might be fundraising or are just wanted to
[01:10:41] get that push to get started also tell us if there's any questions you would want us to ask our
[01:10:47] transnational women leaders in our next interviews till then stay tuned for our other episodes where
[01:10:53] we speak with women investors from places like Palestine, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and others
[01:11:01] you
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