Lisa Haggar - Candidate Experience & Educating Upwards

[00:00:00] Hello, I am Katrina Collier and as part of my mission to inspire all the people that recruit

[00:00:05] people to treat people better, I bring you The Hiring Partner Perspective Unedited

[00:00:10] Podcast. Here you will hear from those hiring leaders who create true partnerships with

[00:00:16] recruiters, HR and talent acquisition because they know that it delivers a better result

[00:00:21] for the business and a better human experience. May this podcast inspire other hiring

[00:00:26] leaders to create better partnerships with their recruiters and HR and may inspire recruiters

[00:00:32] to create true and valuable partnerships with their hiring leaders because people make

[00:00:37] businesses succeed and people matter. So let us begin.

[00:00:49] Lisa Hager, welcome to The Hiring Partner Perspective Podcast, proudly supported by the

[00:00:53] People App Work Drive. Great to have you here. Now I am going to let you introduce yourself

[00:01:00] because you have many hats, right?

[00:01:01] To yes.

[00:01:03] Big one which is your favourite at the moment.

[00:01:06] Oh that's a good question. We've been here some days on that one. Yes so my name is

[00:01:11] Lisa Hager if you've just said I have worked in HR for over 30 years. Yes and that old

[00:01:16] Which is not possible.

[00:01:19] Yeah so I do a combination of HR. I'm coach, I'm a speaker, I do a lot of charity work

[00:01:27] as well but I'm known on LinkedIn because I am the last with SAS who dares to say what

[00:01:34] other people think or don't say because I think we need to start doing things as an industry

[00:01:40] we have to do better and be far more people centric and I'm very vocal about that.

[00:01:44] It's heartfelt and genuine so I create a lot of noise and got lots of followers on my

[00:01:49] posts simply because they go oh my gosh, she wasn't HR and she said that. And so I guess

[00:01:55] I did yes I did and I stand by it because it's the only way to kind of make some change

[00:02:01] and make an impact.

[00:02:02] Yeah which I think is why you and I get on so well.

[00:02:05] I think we're related.

[00:02:08] I do believe so. You know people might be confused when they hear my accent even through

[00:02:14] my Covid cough but it's still that we're both very forthright but I think also we give tips.

[00:02:21] It's not like we just rant for the sake of ranting and on that of course it was a post

[00:02:26] that I messaged you about which was a LinkedIn post that said is it tries again?

[00:02:31] Isn't it about time we stopped that was in capital letters?

[00:02:35] I could actually hear you yelling that we stopped interviewing like it's a courtroom

[00:02:39] think about it for a moment you the defendant go in and state your case why they would want

[00:02:43] to hire you while the jury a panel of the interviewers decide on your fate.

[00:02:47] John description states what they need and what they want and what traits they're looking

[00:02:50] for and it's enough. And obviously you went on to give some great advice.

[00:02:54] What prompted that post?

[00:02:56] And then that little open to higher banner which is always a sign you're going through

[00:03:01] a candidate experience hellhole.

[00:03:03] Yes well again yeah but and it has been actually because obviously in HR we're usually

[00:03:09] the ones who are doing the interviewing. So when you find yourself the shoes on the

[00:03:13] other foot it's always I think you go through that experience in a different way than if

[00:03:19] you don't work in HR but it came from again from that early experience of putting myself

[00:03:23] out there having some great conversations and then being invited to interviews and some

[00:03:30] of them have been the best and some of them have been most horrific one particular was

[00:03:36] I was invited to go for the second interview to meet the CEO right went into a room which

[00:03:42] had a long big mopopany desk, old fashioned kind of courtroom.

[00:03:49] The wooden walls and felt like a coffin to be honest and he sat at one end and of course

[00:03:56] I went in the room and walked this long plank and so to be and shook his hand and said

[00:04:01] nice to meet you where would you like me to sit and he was like there's a chair there

[00:04:06] and it was at the other end of the desk, this desk sat 20 people. So I then had to do

[00:04:12] the walk of shame back to the same to see and sit down and I felt like a 12 year old

[00:04:17] lost little girl and I'm a confident person as many will know or will get to know and even

[00:04:27] then I felt awkward and uncomfortable and I just took that moment to be really mindful

[00:04:33] about that experience and whilst I could see his lips moving I couldn't hear anything because

[00:04:39] I was too busy literally being in that moment and I thought to myself my whole self was

[00:04:44] like actually they said is this acceptable? And I get don't get me wrong, I accept that

[00:04:50] not everybody in the position that I am in so I'm going to say actually well I've got

[00:04:55] lots more interviews lined up I'll see you later so I do respect that I'm not saying

[00:04:59] this my approach to what I'm about to tell you I did is right for everybody but it is

[00:05:03] I hope it empowers some of you just sort of just just check themselves in and say okay

[00:05:07] you don't have to experience this this is a two very straight so I then was just seeing

[00:05:11] the lips moving and nothing experience in my own actually I feel nervous where I'm

[00:05:16] not if it asked me a my name again I wouldn't be able to tell him that's how that's how

[00:05:20] extraordinary feel I was really and I was like no this is not acceptable this is not acceptable

[00:05:26] so I waited in a couple of minutes then kind of like mentally get back in the room and

[00:05:31] then I was like no so I just pull out this stood up and said kind of just stop you there

[00:05:36] this may appear rude but actually it's not meant to be it's meant to be the opposite.

[00:05:41] My experience of your company so far has been awful from when I had to write the application

[00:05:48] I had to then write a whole page of of justification of why I'm good enough to come in yet why

[00:05:54] me which is so outdated. Then the first interview you had two people interview me that didn't

[00:06:01] have a clue couldn't answer the questions that I asked them now I'm meeting in you put

[00:06:05] me in this environment that just makes you feel awkward and this is about power yeah

[00:06:11] I said right now you feel that you have the power and I'm going to shock you by selling

[00:06:16] you you don't I do because I'm not giving it to you I'm giving it to me right here right now so

[00:06:22] thank you for your time and I will politely going to leave and I and the respectful part of that is

[00:06:27] I hope you take on the feedback I hope you never make anybody else feel the way you've made me feel

[00:06:32] I hope is a leader that you take something from this but also that I'm not going to waste another

[00:06:36] half an hour of your time or mine my time is just as precious as yours so thank you so for your time

[00:06:42] I appreciate you and I'll see myself out and that's exactly what I did wow I'm so proud of you

[00:06:49] because it's these are these CEOs and leaders where you know sometimes when I get the opportunity

[00:06:56] to speak in front of them and if I have their names I can look they haven't changed jobs

[00:07:00] in five ten fifteen years and it's long enough that they just don't understand the swing in

[00:07:06] the market from be grateful you've oh be grateful you've got a job to be grateful you've got employees

[00:07:11] it has spung that far which in our career is our thirty careers is quite a shock right yes yeah

[00:07:17] definitely so but again it comes back from not understanding the market being so far

[00:07:22] removed from your operational business yeah that you might sit at the top and see the numbers

[00:07:27] but you haven't got clue what's actually going on in your environment or for some people they don't care

[00:07:32] as long as they're making the dollars and the numbers add up and the shareholders and the board

[00:07:36] and the investors are all happy then who gives a shit right what about you persevere through

[00:07:41] the application I don't even think I'd have got that far again it's because I wanted to experience it

[00:07:47] and again for me that when people go through the aisles I have always said people treat people as

[00:07:52] you wish to be treated yeah so I've got I purposely put myself in very uncomfortable unique

[00:07:57] situations so that I can experience the worst so when so I resonate with people I say actually

[00:08:02] I can empathize truly empathize with that so I did it as a almost like a social experiment to

[00:08:08] myself to see what other people see and feel or other people feel and the ones that were the worst

[00:08:13] I was like yeah I'm over it and one of them was like you say you know you're talking

[00:08:19] big brand names there's like oh and this is what we do and he's a series of six interviews

[00:08:24] yeah no and and it equates to like probably 20 30 hours of your job and then they wanted

[00:08:29] a presentation that took probably around two or three days to do a good job because I'm a

[00:08:34] boomer perfect when it comes to that and so when I got down to the last two and they said thanks

[00:08:40] but no thanks they actually went into another candidate who I also know very very well yeah she rang

[00:08:44] me afterwards to say I've got it we both knew we would go in against each other and we were fine

[00:08:48] with that and I said great and she said can I just ask you one question so yeah what salary

[00:08:53] were they going to pay you so I told her and she said that's why they weren't with me then because

[00:08:56] I was cheaper and it made me laugh because you know we were having a good but but they actually

[00:09:01] turned around that they said that they liked my approach better and would she call me and ask me

[00:09:08] about how I went around and did that so there's my concept and they made her ring me right

[00:09:14] they rang me ring me and say all these said you know they went with me I got you okay you know

[00:09:19] find out that they were paying a less she was horrified and then afterwards she said

[00:09:23] I really don't want to do this but I'm being made to do this so they liked your concept but I just

[00:09:27] can't do all the moving parts because don't quite get where you were coming with this and no

[00:09:31] because one minute or a diverse brain doesn't write it all down it's visual too um I'm not about

[00:09:37] to give away my IP yeah so if you want that that's fine I'll send you an invoice for it

[00:09:43] and also send you an invoice for my 27 hours of interviews and prep absolutely um and I didn't

[00:09:50] and she's like yeah I probably think you're good for that so I know what it what it's hilarious like

[00:09:56] oh so we're basically paying less than not getting the person we need and just it's 2022

[00:10:02] did you see that amazing Twitter bot that went on International Women's Day

[00:10:08] which was absolutely amazing so anytime anybody posted it would retweet the post with what the pay

[00:10:14] gap was okay so and it'd be like oh this company pays like minus 52% so the women have paid 52

[00:10:21] percent less than the men and then of course even if they deleted the original post the user

[00:10:25] username the handle would stay in the tweet absolutely brilliant just everyone was just sitting

[00:10:31] there glued because it was but it's like what you're talking about so they they deliberately

[00:10:37] they could have paid her the same they could have could have paid yes well to see that's another

[00:10:42] thing for me is that whole pay piece um is you know during covid you've seen less jobs that are

[00:10:48] obvious because everyone's going through a tough time and I get that okay and company was quite

[00:10:52] not quite accordingly I get that but you're still seeing you know at that time point I was seeing

[00:10:58] like HRD jobs advertised for 45,000 it's like really the person's skills haven't gotten

[00:11:04] less what you need delivered hasn't gotten less but but all of a sudden it's devalued by 50%

[00:11:08] really oh my god so that was a shot but now you've got some people that said actually no they

[00:11:13] are commanding some huge numbers now and I'm getting them and just if I so but you still got too

[00:11:20] much people too many people sort of say well um and one person contact me and say um this is the job

[00:11:28] okay can you tell me what you want for it right I said no no let's let's change that what budget

[00:11:33] have you got and people won't answer that question what's in your budget they would they do not

[00:11:38] want to say that they'll say oh well it's around about or or market rates there's no okay what's

[00:11:44] the because again had a number of interviews where when it turns out all we haven't got the budget

[00:11:48] past 60,000 well then then thank you but um I'm not at that level I'm way more than that so

[00:11:54] you can't afford me why waste my time even in the beginning and so I also say people watch

[00:11:59] your budget and very few people will actually come out say what's in the actual budget they'll

[00:12:04] they'll maybe budget for 60, 100, 150 makes no difference they'll budget for that but they don't

[00:12:09] really want to spend that they want to spend a lot less so um so but I also say to people again

[00:12:14] in businesses where I'm part of that say well no we have the budget so that means we spend up to them

[00:12:19] if we get somebody who's less expensive than a bit of a grower that's fine but if we send

[00:12:23] safe 10k that 10k in my budget it's reinvested in their development so if that gets coaching or

[00:12:30] mentoring or or courses or anything there's actually so what's the difference between that and figure

[00:12:36] and that skill level okay we reinvest that so that they are at the top level all we say okay we've

[00:12:40] put a development plan in and it's six months or 12 months you know and we put that in writing

[00:12:44] because that's a commitment that people say you're not right there we're almost there the money is

[00:12:49] so let's grow you into that money and that's what I think to do. I have that honest conversation with

[00:12:54] the candidate and they're knowing their areas of development they're not going to come in I mean

[00:12:59] like that poor girl that you know that post that went absolutely nuts where the girl foolishly tweeted

[00:13:05] that she lowballed a candidate by 45,000 um she wouldn't come in find out like the applicant wouldn't

[00:13:12] come in find out they're being paid less and then get resentful and then look to leave and then

[00:13:18] all of the people around them that they're going to influence as well. Oh massive. All of that

[00:13:23] negativity instead you're they're coming in going oh gosh I'm going to get developed which is

[00:13:28] actually what everybody wants including our generation I'll just throw that out there like I always do

[00:13:34] for some reason they don't think we want to be developed I know it's a question I asked one of

[00:13:38] the CEOs actually as one of the other interviews um I he asked me some questions I said always

[00:13:44] okay I've asked some questions said yeah that's great I said well can I ask you the questions that

[00:13:47] you've asked me um oh okay so I said you've talked about what I can bring etc so that's fine

[00:13:53] I said but like you I'm 51 but I'm not done yet I still every day is a school day for me I still push

[00:13:59] myself about what I don't know um so I'm here to look after your people and look after your business

[00:14:06] that's great how can you help me develop further what are you going to do as my leader as my

[00:14:11] person that I'm inspired by how are you going to push me how are you going to challenge me um

[00:14:17] and he was like that well and again I said if you can't answer the question again honesty first

[00:14:25] tell me you can't answer the question I respect it you go I've got a clue lease versus trying to

[00:14:31] make something up on the fly which is what you're trying to do right now so let's just be honest

[00:14:35] if you don't know you don't know yeah because I don't know he said I just assumed because he's

[00:14:40] you know you've got 30 years experience that um in fact you you know everything you need to know

[00:14:45] and you're just going to come in and share it with us and I said no I don't know everything in the world

[00:14:51] I had this exact conversation actually about years of experience doesn't mean that you know

[00:14:55] everything yeah now obviously you know plenty we know that right because you talk a lot

[00:14:59] in everyone sees your opinion and you're highly sought after this particular talent acquisition

[00:15:04] professional was talking about their HRBP she's just goes she's got six years of experience why

[00:15:09] doesn't she understand TA I'm going well maybe nobody's ever explained it to her in the whole six

[00:15:14] years she's been a HRBP this year's experience doesn't necessarily equate we all know people

[00:15:21] who've been working for 30 years and are not totally utterly dynamic and pushing them below

[00:15:26] and learning and they're just very happy to just take the salary and go home which is not you

[00:15:32] one of the things I loved about your post was of course you wrote your future CEO job description

[00:15:37] and you know people centric leader and you want emotional intelligence and integrity and

[00:15:41] compassion etc I of course particularly like the good sense of human animal love I would be a bonus

[00:15:47] of course and I'm curious did anybody actually reach out did any CEOs read that and go oh Lisa hi

[00:15:55] she know what they did I have seven awesome seven people contact me they do have

[00:16:00] seen when I do a post like that and it goes crazy I had a lot of people like 4,000 reactions

[00:16:06] collection connections and stuff so I'm from that lots of CEOs connected and seven CEOs pretty

[00:16:13] chance sort of say actually I really like the post we're sort of tinkered around seeing some

[00:16:18] moving stuff like where you're coming from this is actually inspiring these are the types of people

[00:16:22] we want to help lead our business let's have a conversation yeah yeah so what would you say to people

[00:16:28] that don't have that I mean I mentioned before actually it's same tell the acquisition professional

[00:16:33] who's just been fired for being two people centric and wanting the best for a company and being

[00:16:38] too demanding of course she's been very much like you and I to be fair what would you say because

[00:16:43] I mean to me I feel like the universe gave her a kick to get out the door and go get a proper job

[00:16:47] which is really respected yeah what do you say to people though that are feeling just empowered in

[00:16:52] their companies and maybe have a bit of fear that really there isn't a company out there that will

[00:16:58] appreciate them again I describe myself as a Marmite you either get me or you don't and I you know

[00:17:04] always veggie might in your case I'm right I'm telling like so and that's okay with me

[00:17:12] yeah and I don't worry about that and that comes with age it comes with experience that comes

[00:17:16] with you know facing adversity etc etc so I get that I am stronger than most but in terms of

[00:17:23] I attract the people in my life that are like me and get me and I so I think they put you right

[00:17:29] vibrations out there then people are on your way then they you know they reach out to you but the same

[00:17:34] way as is you know the market has changed now there are a lot of opportunities here however

[00:17:40] don't feel that you have to change yourself if that means there's only 20% of the market that get you

[00:17:46] that we you know then you become attracted to that's okay because that 20% are the ones where you

[00:17:52] will thrive they will fit there are people like yourself that are like minded like yourself that

[00:17:58] will question that will be curious that won't just say yes or put lipstick on a pig so that 20% is

[00:18:04] more powerful than trying to be all things to all people to fit in and just just don't be anything

[00:18:11] else but yourself and although you feel that you're probably you know fishing in a smaller pond

[00:18:16] it's the right pond exactly so yeah rather than you'll end up going through the 80% of the mill

[00:18:23] lots of interviews and you'll be getting no no no no no because you don't fit

[00:18:28] and that just becomes self-deprecating and then you think oh not good enough and your confidence

[00:18:32] goes and those sorts of things um so that's that's why you know that would be my advice to people

[00:18:36] yeah and I think if one thing in this market as well the things that really matter now uh

[00:18:42] recruitment and retention so it's like a really good TA team and a really good HR team

[00:18:46] you know it's so important isn't it and therefore I think you absolutely owe it to the company

[00:18:52] you're working for and yourself to find a match to find one that will understand that those two

[00:18:57] teams are so incredibly important yeah absolutely is of course different has it always been seen

[00:19:03] that way sadly no and they're not mutually exclusive either are they you know um but again it's

[00:19:09] about being able to be in the position where you can um you know you can educate upwards

[00:19:15] in a lot of people do their day job and they think well I you know I'm not in position to go and say

[00:19:19] to the CEO do you know what's happening in your arena do you know actually the impact of the

[00:19:23] environment that's going on do you know actually how difficult it is to recruit because there's

[00:19:27] four layers above me um and I said people well if you've got something to say unless you approach them

[00:19:34] or try to you'll never know you'd be surprised I mean is that actually could we just have a quick

[00:19:38] coffee 20 minutes I'm just found some really great I just want to let you know about the market it's

[00:19:42] been some really interesting things I found out and you might want to know just interesting about

[00:19:46] your business would you like to know about them you'd be surprised I mean if you've got actually

[00:19:50] yeah I'm a bit busy this week but you know what next next week would be good um yeah

[00:19:54] yeah and I think it's going in in that much more I've got something to share about the market

[00:20:00] like are you aware it's like this you know we've approached this many people they've turned us

[00:20:03] down we've lost counteroffers we've you know and really going in with the facts and stats not the emotion

[00:20:08] yeah as well yeah because oh that's you know again in terms of data it is important um and

[00:20:16] and the impact I'd like to say from when you know again taken through my recent experience of

[00:20:20] the amount of interviews you've had and then the amount of space you have in between um

[00:20:24] I'd add another four offers and I turned them down um and there's a sorry but I've already taken an

[00:20:30] offer um and this has been going on for you know three weeks that's a long time in this environment

[00:20:36] because things are moving at pace people are uh and nailing down good people as quick as possible whereas

[00:20:41] so before about all we'll do first interviews then and then we'll wait two weeks I mean

[00:20:45] the companies can't afford to do that now they need to really get say to get the best people the

[00:20:50] best people on the market for long so they need to ramp up that timeline um you know you've seen

[00:20:56] it yourself where people some have given CV and it will be on some of these desk for four days it's like

[00:21:00] yeah and in that four days they've had two interviews somewhere else so by the time you got

[00:21:05] that I really like these three we're gone well particularly if you're recruiting knowledge workers

[00:21:10] who have flexible remote working they can just jump on how easy was that us to jump on this so it

[00:21:16] was so easy right I send you a link here we are we're online I don't have to fake it at a

[00:21:20] test appointment I don't have to physically leave the building and somehow get out and scurry

[00:21:24] off and have an interview in my you know Sunday best it's not like that anymore we just jump

[00:21:28] on a video yeah so it's easier for people to be interviewing and have multiple stuff on the go

[00:21:34] that's yeah yeah it's a good question actually you know we do like the online interviews I was

[00:21:39] asked a question do I prefer to be interviewed online or in person and it was a good question

[00:21:44] because obviously before it was never a question was it because it just wasn't done people

[00:21:48] have thought you're the crazy even if you said in the days of sculpture would just do it right

[00:21:51] scared they've been like um and actually um I like I like having being interviewed on on screen

[00:21:59] it doesn't um put me up actually because I'm in my own home I think there's an element that

[00:22:04] that one you feel more comfortable instantly so you're not going to do that you know that office

[00:22:08] and that walk of shame but two like say so although this is a vocal recording I can see your home

[00:22:15] you can see mine you see a bit part of people's lives and things and so you can start to kind of

[00:22:20] resonate with people and you feel comfortable and they're a human being not a candidate they're a

[00:22:24] human being not your potential boss and I think that emotionally when you're going into something

[00:22:29] that can be a nervous experience um I think that already helps people um so I yeah so I think

[00:22:35] that actually the online stuff um while it's not as personal we can't kind of feel the emotion

[00:22:39] in the room as much I think they're from the candidate experience I think it's it's a far better

[00:22:44] experience for everybody um I don't know why I think there's a few rules on that like just making

[00:22:50] sure that Harry manages to turn up on time that's a big one it's amazing how they'll think it's okay

[00:22:56] because it's a video chat to be late and then not apologize it's like no still be on time still

[00:23:01] makes an impression and have your camera on um we'll both have your cameras off whichever as long

[00:23:08] as both yeah are there some excellent have you come across recruiting hell on reddit no no I'm

[00:23:15] I'm gonna let me send you that link it's just hilarious and um it's full of horror stories um and one

[00:23:21] of them that I bring out a lot in my presentations is about you know being grilled with his camera

[00:23:27] hat to be on and their cameras were off I mean could you imagine I'd be like oh yeah

[00:23:33] really yeah stressful I mean you and I speak and we used to doing webinars and stuff like

[00:23:37] that so we'd be fine but as an interview yeah no because that was the whole thing wasn't it with

[00:23:41] your your post was this is two way actually the other thing you mentioned in here is you

[00:23:47] you're Harry manages still not giving you enough time to ask some questions yes because you obviously

[00:23:52] have lots of experiences where they'll tell you all about the company then you get grilled

[00:23:58] and then you've got like five minutes left it's like we've got a question and you think I've

[00:24:02] got loads of questions but I know I'm gonna have time so I will say um I've got quite a few

[00:24:07] do you have time for that and they're oh well no I've got a hard out whatever um okay do you want

[00:24:12] to email me them and that to me kind of feels a bit oh um well I can do but then that doesn't really

[00:24:19] feel like there's context in that as we all know you know emails are not really a great communication

[00:24:25] tool I don't think so anyway so it's like there's no context there's no chance to kind of do any

[00:24:30] rebuttal or is it this or kind of clarify that so um so again so that was a bit like uh okay yeah

[00:24:37] so being spoken with and talked at they are two very different camps and I've experienced both

[00:24:44] yeah that's also an interesting dynamic yeah it totally needs to be with this is 2022 it's a

[00:24:50] two way conversation actually you've just reminded me of something did you see we I don't know if

[00:24:55] crossed your radar yet but there's a tick-choc that's gone viral it's like one and a half million

[00:25:00] views or something the last time I saw it where this man was accidentally sent the email from HR

[00:25:07] that Hishinne had been included on which was talking about he he being rejected because he didn't turn

[00:25:12] up to an interview an online interview because he didn't receive the email about it now I've had

[00:25:17] that happen personally where someone sent me a zoom invite and I've not got it yeah and it was just

[00:25:22] like the fact that they just didn't give him the benefit of the doubt when I have had thousands

[00:25:26] upon thousands of emails myself go straight is just mind blowing but it was also when I then shared

[00:25:31] it in a HR group on Facebook with some of the comments from HR professionals that was so bit she

[00:25:37] and unnecessary and I was trying to make the point HR made an error here so be careful because one

[00:25:42] and a half million people have had I have seen that error even though he didn't say the company

[00:25:47] eventually it came out of course yeah and you're just going and they were going oh he's very

[00:25:51] irritating I wouldn't have hired him anyway I'm sorry what it doesn't matter whether he's irritating

[00:25:57] or not he's had a shocking candidate experience and he's talking about it publicly

[00:26:02] and the fact that I say you know the people experts have jumped on the bandwagon well well

[00:26:08] it's his fault and actually he was irritating what that whole judgmental piece yes is that who are

[00:26:14] you who do you think you are if you're right to judge and say well this I'm like no I think

[00:26:19] you've forgotten your position again it comes back to tick boxing and again that kind of

[00:26:24] experience is send over and invite and then I will take somebody's number and then the day before

[00:26:29] say you know just check just check you've had that come through because sometimes mine

[00:26:32] goes in my junk box and and get lost because there's billions of go over every day just making sure

[00:26:38] you've got all of that and there's nothing else you need from me ready for tomorrow to sign up with

[00:26:43] if we got any technical issues his my number will just have a phone call it's absolutely fine so don't

[00:26:47] worry about it we've got plan A we've got plan B exactly and yeah yes use WhatsApp on the

[00:26:52] desktop and send them an message they actually you'll know they got things like that it's yeah

[00:26:57] I didn't I've interviewed on WhatsApp before because they're okay well something's going wrong

[00:27:01] so do you know what I'm just gonna we'll do it that way cool yeah and if you want a video you've got

[00:27:06] WhatsApp on video anyway you know well I'd set my new email up and apparently they didn't add

[00:27:11] something to the header because they don't do that automatically unless people ask for it because

[00:27:15] it can confuse something so if you're like 1% of people they don't for to appease 1% of people

[00:27:20] they don't do this thing so all my emails were going to spam or filtered or junk on my brand new

[00:27:26] email I was so you know and I was getting so frustrated and I was like okay now it's fixed it's great

[00:27:32] but it's that experience of then people reply and they don't have contact details and you can't

[00:27:36] get in touch and back and forth and so it's just I think we should give people the benefit

[00:27:41] of the doubt that's for sure I think I just use this as an excuse to rant about my email

[00:27:45] no but it's good like I said but it's all about somebody else's experience because you know

[00:27:49] what's the point and when we take it back to well well what's the point the point is the

[00:27:53] the those have had great experiences with I will talk about highly I will go and eat there

[00:27:58] I will go hang out there I will recommend their services to somebody etc etc because the

[00:28:03] spoke to CEOs is a really good company some nice people there wasn't quite right for me but you

[00:28:08] know what great and I will be a brand ambassador for all of those I've had a great experience

[00:28:13] those I haven't whilst I'm not a person that will go in name and shame you know my experience has

[00:28:19] been my experience and again our paths will cross at some point and especially I had one which was

[00:28:26] just completely hideous and then as soon as they found out that I have accepted a role the first

[00:28:32] thing they did was rang up and said oh right so you'd be wanting a recruiter then yes I will

[00:28:38] all right well we'll just thought we'll have an early chat what's to chat about

[00:28:44] well you know well because we know each other then we could be your provider

[00:28:48] are there an agency recruitment agency yeah yeah and I was like

[00:28:53] so let me just retrace our steps this is what happened this was my experience this is

[00:28:58] then what happened this is then what happened another time and you think that I would want to work

[00:29:03] with your company representing the place I'm about to work all myself that would be a very polite

[00:29:10] big unquestable no you're deluded love yeah so and I used the word love in a very condescending way

[00:29:19] on purpose so if that was just because I was like yeah met so I'm literally no occasionally I feel

[00:29:25] it has its place but if you've just been so badly treated and then they think that that's fine

[00:29:33] well they didn't think they didn't think that they had and they said well that's how we that's our

[00:29:38] process yeah so like ghosting people all sorts I said so go back and check your process because it

[00:29:45] doesn't work and go and speak to your employer because clearly you're one of the recruiters that

[00:29:50] just throws enough shit at the wall and some will stick everybody gets paid so nobody cares I said

[00:29:55] you're dealing with people's lives you should care about every individual person I'm not saying you

[00:30:01] need to go be best friends and go Sunday lunch together but what I'm saying is you are dealing with

[00:30:06] human beings yeah putting trust and faith in your hands and you have treated them abysmally how

[00:30:12] dare you and yeah on your website talks about integrity you need to just take that off your website

[00:30:16] because you don't contain an ounce of it so yeah yeah so true and I do love you know I've just

[00:30:25] written the second edition of the robot proof of credo which will be out in August and it was

[00:30:30] interesting going through and it's just you know it has become even more transparent you know

[00:30:35] the internet opened the door so people that are treating me I still got an infant and for those of

[00:30:40] you who can't see because also this is a little screenshot at least the holding my book up yay

[00:30:45] this is not the first one so yes I need to get the second one but I just want you to start

[00:30:50] with your mouth open um but I totally get totally get the second one because I have oh she's

[00:30:56] she's totally posing anyone with two other podcasts um yeah no please get both because I'm still

[00:31:02] donating my royalties to hope for justice but it was that that transparency piece and not only is

[00:31:08] you know what you said is so important we play with people's lives and that includes the hiring

[00:31:12] managers who are hopefully listening to this podcast and getting smite as and your CEOs and

[00:31:16] everybody we are you know if you're hiring anybody you are playing with that person's life but it's

[00:31:23] if you don't the cost is huge you know should the bottom line to candidate experience to ability to

[00:31:28] retain star yes crazy yeah I mean recruitment is uh is you know it's an expensive um part

[00:31:36] it was a soon-to-part of your budget yeah um it's easy to get right though that's what

[00:31:41] that just blows my brain right yeah is it's so easy to get right you just need to think about

[00:31:47] it a little bit more and not have such a rigid process that you know I get that processes are there

[00:31:52] to be efficient and they're some of the foundations that I get that I care I respect that however

[00:31:58] being kind isn't in the process yeah right doing the right thing uh one of the biggest things

[00:32:05] is like say when people have sort of clicked on lots of jobs and they and they have that email that

[00:32:10] comes and says oh if you don't hear back within five days take it you've not got the job yeah yeah

[00:32:16] yeah absolutely eye-rolling rude that's that you have a most people have some kind of automated

[00:32:22] system yeah it wouldn't take even yes and I get that but it wouldn't take what 15 20 minutes

[00:32:30] there's a the literally they just have a box you have to take you've already put your templates say

[00:32:34] thank you we've got another candidate thank you once on success with this time just so

[00:32:38] somebody knows to score off their list because they're waiting to hear back from three or four

[00:32:42] yeah they're critical roles for them you know they may have not got a job or desperately need one

[00:32:47] so they need to know where so it's not rocket science to do that but then people know one way

[00:32:52] the other and yes I get that not everybody can have the time for feedback although I would like

[00:32:57] to think that people did the right thing where they needed to um there's another bug bear of mine

[00:33:01] but however you've got the automated system and yet they come up with this especially and that's

[00:33:06] on some of the big named HR agencies yeah you don't hear back in five days uh jog on um and it's like

[00:33:13] right your job your your job as a recruiter is literally just to find people to speak to people

[00:33:19] and let them and update them you're literally not doing the job if you do if you're listening to

[00:33:24] this I you absolutely have no excuse you get back to everybody okay maybe not the people from

[00:33:29] left failed who really had no skills send them an email but everyone else if your HR recruiter

[00:33:34] recruiting HR people you're crazy because you're missing out but companies as well you know I don't

[00:33:39] like it and I talk about this in the book I don't like it when it says like kind regards the talent

[00:33:43] acquisition team now put your name so people can say actually I disagree I have got the skills maybe

[00:33:48] I'm not demonstrating it on this horribly hard to write document you know let people come back to

[00:33:54] you you want to talk to the people who you know I keen to work with you and also send them somewhere

[00:33:59] oh hey go and look at our job search tips or here's our behind-the-scenes on Instagram or join

[00:34:04] our talent pool you know give people something yeah help them with their next with even if they're

[00:34:10] not right for you they'll be right for someone else but that's a great point actually and they all

[00:34:14] know people as well so you think about the roles you've turned down and you could have gone you

[00:34:19] know what wasn't right for me but actually Katrina you probably really enjoy this and you could

[00:34:22] refer people in which of course there's nothing yeah and that's what we've done with the people

[00:34:26] who've treated us as well the rest they've said yeah or do you have any because you've got an

[00:34:29] extensive network do you have anybody else who'd recommend and those who have just like when I

[00:34:33] know sorry no yeah because I don't want to do it with doing it

[00:34:40] the man at the end of the table and the past me the salt guy no he's not getting any referrals

[00:34:46] this week on next on next year oh no well I missed the opportunity I should have taken a pot

[00:34:52] salt in the bag and then just throw it across the table oh that I could just visualize that

[00:35:01] and like oh yes you can talk to me that was always have your spot on the bag oh yeah

[00:35:06] now if people want to get in touch with you to just or follow you along is the easiest place linked

[00:35:11] in yes because I'm not on any of the platform oh yeah yeah stop you out anywhere else no

[00:35:18] yeah so no I'm not on anywhere apart from LinkedIn I think I may do in the future but I think

[00:35:25] that I do and I can't do it too talk clearly I can yeah I've been trying to do I don't think

[00:35:32] you can tick talks quite ready for me I actually think that is one where I'm happy to rule a line of

[00:35:37] it's a generational thing and I'm not the generation I have a friend Steven who's really really

[00:35:44] good friend with me and and he sent me stuff all the time and it just makes me howl and this

[00:35:48] was really good stuff on there yeah in the right arena you can do some really good messaging

[00:35:56] I'm just not quite brave enough because you know I think I have a face of the newspaper

[00:36:03] not true yeah no I do look at it sometimes oh but yeah no there's some really really funny stuff

[00:36:10] and like I was saying earlier people are talking about Candace experience on there so

[00:36:15] yeah thank you so much this has been a fabulous conversation hopefully none of the swearing

[00:36:20] bothered any of our usual listeners yes I should have done that at the beginning to say yeah

[00:36:25] she's Scottish she may serve me on bleep and we don't have a bleep but so who cares

[00:36:30] I never care about that anyway thanks again Lisa thanks for having me thanks Katrina

[00:36:35] thank you for listening to the hiring partner perspective unedited podcast

[00:36:39] proudly supported by the people at work drive hopefully you really enjoyed what you heard

[00:36:44] and a flat feeling inspired and if so I would love your help to create real change please pass

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[00:37:10] of what's going on until next time thank you

[00:37:32] do you love news about LinkedIn indeed google and just about every other recruitment tech company out

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