The Truth About HEATWAVES & Climate Change in India (ft. Aditya Pillai)

[00:00:00] Today on The Big Story, the most basic question that all of us have is why is it so hot?

[00:00:10] Before the Industrial Revolution, large scale rise of force of youth based manufacturing,

[00:00:15] our average temperature has now increased 1.1 degrees from that level.

[00:00:20] Before we begin I have to tell you Pratik, you have to promise me not to make any hot and heat buns.

[00:00:27] No, no.

[00:00:28] Shatwas will be very difficult to see you.

[00:00:30] Not how it works on this show.

[00:00:33] What exactly is a heat wave?

[00:00:35] Number 1, number 2, how is it just different from the hot day of the day?

[00:00:41] There is at least hope that they would care more about climate change as being like an important mudda as they say.

[00:00:48] So if you ask them what do you think your constituency is going to look like in 50 years?

[00:00:54] Sadly the most common response I get is it's well beyond my time.

[00:00:59] The views expressed in this podcast are speakers own, the Quint neither endorses nor is responsible for them.

[00:01:06] Hello, hello, hello everybody to this new episode of The Big Story.

[00:01:11] First of all thanks a lot for your great reception to our previous episode on the Karnataka elections

[00:01:17] and it was really encouraging for us because the first time our faces were on camera

[00:01:22] and if you want us to do more such episodes where we are not going to show a good shot,

[00:01:27] please let us know and we will be doing more of these video episodes for you.

[00:01:30] But today on our episode I have a very bad news for all that our regular co-host Anjali is not with us today

[00:01:40] because she has gone for a shoot so to replace her,

[00:01:43] I mean, she can't replace her but for this episode.

[00:01:46] What an introduction Pratik, like such a downer.

[00:01:50] I'm sorry the person you like is not here but he is someone else just in case that sounds like it.

[00:01:58] Come, come, let's go. No no no.

[00:02:00] When it comes to all things health and all you we know the person you know are go to person

[00:02:05] and that is our member from our Quint 50, our health correspondent Anushka.

[00:02:11] Hello, welcome to the big story. Hi Pratik, hi everyone and I'm sorry Anjali is not here.

[00:02:16] Hopefully I can do justice to your wonderful show.

[00:02:20] But I am very excited to be on big story because I love this podcast and I will be with you.

[00:02:24] Yes, and we love you, Anushka. We love your stories,

[00:02:28] we love your health coverage and the great stuff you guys are doing with the Fit team.

[00:02:33] Yeah, subtle plug for Quint 50 please go read our stories and watch our videos.

[00:02:38] Okay, Anushka so what are we talking about today and why have we called you here out of all people?

[00:02:43] Before we begin I have to tell you Pratik.

[00:02:45] You have to promise me not to make any hot and heat puns.

[00:02:49] No, no.

[00:02:50] That was going to be very difficult for you.

[00:02:52] It's not how it works on this show.

[00:02:55] Why do you think I was hired on this show man?

[00:02:57] Do you think it was for the researcher, for my editing skills? No, it was for my hot puns.

[00:03:05] So leaning into that we have a hot topic for everyone today.

[00:03:09] Yes, we are going to be talking about heat waves and heat in general.

[00:03:14] I think we have all been kind of feeling it.

[00:03:17] So anyone who is listening to it right now probably can hard relate what we will be talking about,

[00:03:24] what we are experiencing.

[00:03:25] Of course like a lot of us are very privileged to have climate controlled environment so we can say

[00:03:32] it's not the same for everyone.

[00:03:33] So where are you right now Anushka and how much is the heat over there?

[00:03:38] I am in Manifur and it's actually not that hot today.

[00:03:44] Yes, today.

[00:03:45] Again because of climate change we had a very unexpected storm rain and stuff but yeah I mean the daytime

[00:03:53] right now it is getting hot though.

[00:03:56] I was about to go to office today but then I was like not possibly out.

[00:04:02] No, I can't leave after that.

[00:04:05] Where are you? You are in an idol?

[00:04:06] I am in Ghaziabad.

[00:04:08] Close to an idol.

[00:04:10] So yeah we are going to talk about heat and more than heat I think what we want to also talk about

[00:04:17] is the things that we can do about heat.

[00:04:20] Because as we all know that climate change is happening continuously and you know

[00:04:26] we are experiencing extreme weather events but is there something we can do to save

[00:04:32] the most vulnerable populations from this percope of heat because as Anushka said

[00:04:37] that all of us are very, you know we are not the main victims of this problem I would say.

[00:04:45] We have the opportunity to take a day of work we have all of these amazing ACs and fans at home

[00:04:50] but there is such a huge chunk of population which doesn't have that option.

[00:04:54] So what can they do and you know what should we do as a society to sort of help them tackle this problem of heat right?

[00:05:04] Yeah I mean what is helping them I don't know that sounds like a very patronizing kind of a stance to take.

[00:05:11] Yeah it is for all of us right like in the last few years I feel like we have been a lot more aware

[00:05:19] and a lot more cognizant of the way heat really affects us and how kind of sinister

[00:05:26] and how silent the effects can be to all aspects of our health like not just in terms of dehydration

[00:05:34] or you know health and further lot of research coming out talking about how heat effects are economy as well

[00:05:41] our workforce as well. And also in fact there was this Lancet study recently that was published that showed

[00:05:48] in 2021 the deaths caused by high temperatures have gone up by 74% since 1980

[00:05:56] that's almost twice as much that's a scary high amount of deaths.

[00:06:01] I feel like slowly it's creeping into everyone's consciousness that it's not just like hot climate

[00:06:07] it's not just part of our you know Indian summers as we call it,

[00:06:11] it's an actual problem that we need to kind of think about.

[00:06:14] Also what we have been hearing in the past 10 years at least it namja yada

[00:06:21] news about heat and you know a particular day being the hottest day in the last 50 years,

[00:06:27] 100 years all of that is so rampant that it's almost like we are not surprised anymore.

[00:06:34] One time it was like there was a hot test day so it used to be such a big news or a hot test

[00:06:40] but now it has become so common that every year it's a record breaking day

[00:06:45] especially in a place like Delhi where you know it's very hot here.

[00:06:49] But also like I just want to tell all our listeners the episode is not just going to be us

[00:06:54] fapping around talking about TV can do this and that we have an actual expert.

[00:07:00] It's a very good thing if it's gonna just be us.

[00:07:05] I remember talking about climate solution also,

[00:07:10] heat action plans is you're going to hear a lot of heat action plan through the episode

[00:07:14] but it'll come from someone who actually has some authority in the subject and not just us.

[00:07:20] So you know before we talk about our expert I just want to talk a bit about these heat action plans

[00:07:26] because first of all I didn't know that something like that existed or needed to be there

[00:07:33] the heat is like heat, it's gonna get me out.

[00:07:36] Exactly because even any kind of communication that we get from the government also

[00:07:42] or any like authorities health authorities, it's always very personal about what you can do

[00:07:48] drink water, stay indoors, stay hydrated, have na real pani which is very expensive these days.

[00:07:54] But yeah I didn't even know that there was any kind of planning at an administrative level for heat waves.

[00:08:03] Yeah and it's so interesting that all of these new kinds of plans have crept up.

[00:08:09] I mean we shouldn't have needed a heat action plan.

[00:08:13] No I mean I feel like we should have had it sooner also.

[00:08:16] Yeah, in the light of events yeah but I'm saying that it's not necessary to have an idea with a heat action plan.

[00:08:23] But what do you mean? It has been since the 90s, not even 90s since the 1900s has been projected

[00:08:30] like we're just going to keep increasing climate change to think.

[00:08:33] So honestly we should have been prepared and we should have like a better plan.

[00:08:37] Talking about having it too late, the India's heat action plan like the first heat action plan in India came only in the 2013.

[00:08:46] Wow I'm not even surprised.

[00:08:48] So it's just a decade old, it's a decade old that's it.

[00:08:51] So the concept of heat action plans in India is a decade old and that happened in Ahmedabad after the 2010 heat wave.

[00:08:58] Yeah in fact that kind of brings me to urban infrastructure and when we were kind of

[00:09:04] talking about this episode preparing for it as I'm sure you have as well.

[00:09:09] I went through a lot of research papers, heat action plans and

[00:09:14] somewhere central to all of them is urban infrastructure and the small small things that we do in the way we build our homes,

[00:09:22] the way we build our cities, constructions that really impact the way we experience heat waves

[00:09:29] and the magnitude of them that we normally wouldn't even think about that it could be connected.

[00:09:35] So who do we have to enlighten us about heat?

[00:09:38] So we have a very special guest.

[00:09:40] Who's our hot guest of this episode?

[00:09:43] Oh my God, for the heat.

[00:09:46] I almost thank the stars that didn't wake up on but there it is.

[00:09:53] So our very special guest is Aditya Pillai.

[00:09:56] He's a researcher with the Center for Policy Research and he has been working in the field of heat action

[00:10:04] plans about he co-authored a report recently which is published by CPR India as well on reviewing 37 different

[00:10:13] heat action plans in Indian cities and towns.

[00:10:18] So I think it will be a really interesting conversation to have with him because he's really gotten deep into it.

[00:10:24] You know, I just got into all of these nooks and crannies of...

[00:10:28] Yeah yeah he seems like a heat nerd, he would have a perfect idea of it.

[00:10:33] So I wanted to look at the initial Ahmedabad Valla heat action plan, the 2013 Valla

[00:10:38] because in 2010 there was a heat wave and after they implemented the 2013 heat action plan

[00:10:44] the mortality rate in the 2016 heat wave which was another very huge heat wave in Ahmedabad

[00:10:49] it drastically dropped.

[00:10:51] So I actually wanted to read the Ahmedabad Heat Action plan and see what it was like.

[00:10:56] But just the task of trying to get that document was so hard because it's not like it was there

[00:11:04] in some government website or something like that, any way government websites we know how amazingly well maintained they are.

[00:11:13] So Vothaniwana Valla had to go to another organization's page where they had critiqued this thing

[00:11:19] and it was very, well, a lot of hard-purchased and this research I think really helps to break down a lot of these documents very cumulatively

[00:11:28] and it doesn't single out a single document and it just talks about a general trend that is being observed.

[00:11:34] And also I feel like we should definitely link the report as well because it's really beautifully done

[00:11:41] and it's very comprehensive, has a lot of graphs, interactive graphs so it's very easy to understand

[00:11:47] it's all in one place.

[00:11:49] Yeah we should definitely link it.

[00:11:50] One more thing I want to tell you as a person who researches and does a lot of these health stories

[00:11:56] do you like reading research papers?

[00:11:58] And would you prefer a research paper which is just text and really very dry or do you want all of these graphs

[00:12:05] and some sort of drawings and doodles.

[00:12:09] I am a fire-olded heart so a lot of colors and interviews.

[00:12:13] Yeah.

[00:12:14] Of course, I mean why would you not want to make your work as accessible as possible?

[00:12:20] It's easy to digest, easy to understand always better.

[00:12:24] This has been my biggest gripe with the research community.

[00:12:27] Your...

[00:12:28] Well, I get it that it's a very academic piece of work but okay, let's make a star.

[00:12:34] Let's make a heart in that dot.

[00:12:36] I'm not going to do anything.

[00:12:38] It will be a little bit of a crack.

[00:12:41] Yeah, I think that's also why it has to have guests like Aditya on the show, not only on the show but in general speaking to them directly

[00:12:49] because it really helps break that barrier because how many people really go and read our research paper or report

[00:12:56] so having someone just come and explain it to you is always very important.

[00:13:01] Okay, let's go.

[00:13:03] Let me go call him in.

[00:13:05] Let's have a hot discussion about heat.

[00:13:08] Oh my God.

[00:13:10] Oh no, hot men are very good.

[00:13:12] You have a hot cover of tea with you.

[00:13:14] Nothing hot for me today except my looks.

[00:13:17] Okay, okay. I'm glad there's an audio podcast.

[00:13:21] Hello, hello Aditya. Welcome to the big story.

[00:13:24] Thanks for having this chat with us.

[00:13:26] Hi Pratik, hi Anishka.

[00:13:28] Great to be with you today and excited chat about climate change and heat waves and all that fun stuff.

[00:13:34] Fun stuff, yes exactly.

[00:13:36] Where are you right now? How hot is it outside?

[00:13:39] So I was in Delhi a couple of days ago where I think was approaching 46-47 degrees.

[00:13:47] So pretty nasty.

[00:13:51] And I guess both of you are currently in Delhi so you're better place to talk about the situation in Delhi.

[00:13:57] But right now I'm in the South, I'm in Karnataka and it's about let's see 33 degrees and the night is 31 degrees and the nighttime low is 25.

[00:14:11] Is it like humid heat or like Delhi type heat?

[00:14:14] Well it's 67% humidity and then it goes up and down and it's very close to the monsoon.

[00:14:21] Do you usually have all of these stats with your own hand?

[00:14:25] As a researcher, Kiyamesha, because you were very specific with it.

[00:14:32] Low high humidity everything is on point.

[00:14:34] I keep an eye. I think one of the byproducts will be in this kind of climate change space is you start looking at these things quite a bit.

[00:14:43] Unfortunately I have a watch with a temperature sensor, local temperature sensors.

[00:14:49] So I'm constantly putting this watch on various surfaces trying to get a sense of what the actual temperature is.

[00:14:56] So if you put it on a motorbike for example, you'll get a temperature.

[00:15:00] When it's on the road and running, you get a very different temperature from the IMD temperature gauge.

[00:15:08] And then you put it in an AC room and you'll see what your body is experiencing which is very rarely the number on these.

[00:15:15] So does the watch have a temperature sensor?

[00:15:17] Yeah, it does.

[00:15:18] It does which is why I'm just like.

[00:15:19] What do you say this is like an occupational hazard for you because when we cover a lot of pollution stories,

[00:15:25] we also tend to be very hyper focused on what the IQI is at all times so maybe it's like a result of all the research you've been doing.

[00:15:34] Small talk with you must be insane, right?

[00:15:37] If somebody is in a meta video and they're like, hi, I'm a bit worried.

[00:15:40] You would be like, yeah man, low it's not high.

[00:15:43] Real fee.

[00:15:44] The heat index.

[00:15:46] Yeah so yeah it is an occupational hazard but also it's kind of interesting even with the IQI stuff.

[00:15:54] So you get a different sense of how different people experience this which I find kind of useful.

[00:16:01] The only thing is it's it becomes an obsession after a point so you're kind of like putting this sensor everywhere and like.

[00:16:07] It's very rarely on my wrist.

[00:16:09] It's my watch is on all sorts of random surfaces.

[00:16:13] It's on the rear view mirror of a motorbike hanging off or it's like sitting in the passenger seat of a car because you can't have it on your wrist because your body temple corrupt the data.

[00:16:25] So you have to have it off your wrist.

[00:16:27] So does it even tell you your body temperature?

[00:16:30] No, it doesn't.

[00:16:32] So it's like an ambient temperature sense.

[00:16:35] Yeah it's best used that way.

[00:16:37] It's meant for hiking and not so it's about telling you there's a storm coming or the temperatures too high to be doing this that and the other.

[00:16:44] Wow man that sounds like a very nice watch.

[00:16:48] If there are some smart watch companies willing to sponsor us.

[00:16:52] We shall tell you what brand this watch is.

[00:16:55] Can I say no I should say until you sign the contract I should.

[00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:01] Yes.

[00:17:03] So yes we were talking about heat waves and the reason we are talking about heat waves is because it is hot man.

[00:17:10] Even though you have the exact numbers we don't need a very fancy smart watch to tell us that it is hot.

[00:17:18] So the most basic question that all of us have is why is it so hot and how is it so hot?

[00:17:28] It's unbearable right?

[00:17:30] I mean Anushka you were just telling me about some of the crazy temperatures that were reached in.

[00:17:35] Yeah so like I said you know the occupation has are that you have is constantly having to check the temperatures and covering health.

[00:17:44] We also tend to have this issue because we've been also writing about heat waves and you know obsessively looking at temperatures like UIs this and that.

[00:17:53] And we have been talking about heat waves since March you know short of February which is crazy to me.

[00:18:00] Although I think another testament to the climate change is that the weather drastically changed after that also there was a lot of rains like untimely rain.

[00:18:11] Sandstorm happening like in Noida it was like in almost apocalyptic situation one day when there was this crazy sandstorm plus it was super hot.

[00:18:19] Even though we talk about heat waves pretty much every year I feel like in India especially we don't take heat waves as seriously because we think that heat and heat wave is just part of the Indian climate you know the Indian temperatures.

[00:18:39] So but then now people are even more what do you think like using people are talking about heat waves and heat more seriously now taking it more seriously as a you know natural disaster and issue that needs to be thought of.

[00:18:55] The first question is why is it hot is actually not a simple answer I think it's hot to different degrees for different people right it's not the same for everyone the fact of the mattress I mean in India where in a place it's always been hot it's just been hot forever because that's the part of the planet.

[00:19:15] The country occupies but what's happening now and it's quite clear and there's enough evidence to support the number of hot days are increasing because of climate change right but there's a second site to this which is also how we've developed our cities in our built environments more generally towns and more and more Indian villages right so the more you travel through Indian villages you the more you see that this is this homogeneity of build structures in the sense it's all.

[00:19:44] Now moving the same direction of cement multi-storey houses flat roofs especially in in North India I think there's like a very strong force of similarities sweeping through most villages in terms of how they're structured and most of these small hotels and stuff all have the glass facade Indian village of old is no longer exists and it's moved very it's a replica.

[00:20:11] It's so interesting that something as basic as what your street is made of or what you're building made of contribute so much to hugely hugely it's this thing that people keep throwing around the urban heat island effect which is basically how your city is structured will ill concentrate heat right so there are all sorts of things that are concentrating heat the cement is absorbing heat the glasses reflecting sunlight into the street level.

[00:20:39] All sorts of things going on is a lack of shade covers so you get a lot of heat and cities of course I mean much more dense much larger much more cement much more cars internal combustion engines all over the place which run very hot.

[00:20:53] It's coming earlier that's that's known to be a climate change in more hot days and more heat waves and we can get into water heat wave is I guess but.

[00:21:05] Exactly that was going to be my next question that if you want to start a little basic say what exactly is a heat wave number one number two how is it just different from.

[00:21:15] Keyage garam dinheads how is it different from just a hot day and how is something like a heat wave caused great that yeah that is a very very important question because it is all contextual right what is a heat wave is contextual there is no universe is standard of this temperature onwards it is a heat wave.

[00:21:32] And you expect I mean you think okay all human bodies are roughly the same why don't you have you know we all have the same genetic makeup you know roughly the same genetic makeup whatever and then you end up with similar responses but that is not the case because of all these things that we were talking about right there's a fever

[00:21:51] temperature is same across the world like the temperature it would be register a fever so you would assume that heat waves should yeah good point.

[00:22:01] Good point but it's not yeah exactly right and all the organs are in the same places and at the same time all these things we're talking about the nature of your physical infrastructure the nature and density of your social infrastructure

[00:22:17] the nature of the heat itself right is it human heat is it dry heat you have warm nights do not have warm nights are a lot of people and then exposure levels yeah you know these are all these are all things that vary and so when you declare a heat wave is based on some understanding all of that and you have to plug it in very difficult so because a heat waves usually declared on a threshold temperature

[00:22:45] and the threshold temperature is based on historical data of whether people start dying more at a community level at that temperature right so if you get a difference in temperature if the temperature goes from say 3637 and you know that there are you know a thousand more people dying between these two temperatures

[00:23:08] and you should probably set it at 3636.1 or 36.2 depending on where the deaths start spiking so you're saying it has more to do with the effect this heat has on people rather than the heat itself so much love temperature

[00:23:24] as long as it only registers as a heat wave as soon as it starts affecting the community at a mass scale that's right so what what you're actually testing for when you set a temperature threshold like that is is it now exceeding the adaptive capacity of that community

[00:23:43] so you're baking in you know all the information that people's grandmother's and mothers gave them about how to deal with heat all this information about their exposure all this information about the kind of built environment therein

[00:23:57] the density of their community networks all of that and you have a certain adaptive capacity and when all those things start breaking down that's when you know this now requires an emergency state response because all those all those adaptive measures are gone so that must be super complex to quantify right as a scale because it's essentially abstract things that you need to quantify

[00:24:20] but also in a country like India wouldn't it be really tricky to get that kind of data especially accurate data on deaths and how do you you know isolate the deaths which are related to heat itself because a lot of them are not even reported

[00:24:35] no no it's that's it large it's all it's all deaths right so you take all that's in trying isolate the heat effect by correlating against the temperature and saying okay that is a spike in deaths

[00:24:45] and so therefore we know that the that spike is probably due to heat because we had a similar question during covid right that would say would you say somebody does or died of a heart attack would you classify it as a covid death or not right so it's a similar thing I would say

[00:25:00] with that data you're right I mean there is a big problem with categorizing heat that's because it presents is different things right it presents as multi organ failure presents a whole bunch of different

[00:25:10] so the death certificate is not going to say this is a heat related death so that's why you have to rely on these all cause mortality studies to isolate the signal of heat in the excess deaths on any any given day right

[00:25:24] so your heart attack and so on would be sort of couched in the baseline so the number of heart attacks won't vary dramatically or will vary within a certain range but then you get a sun huge spike

[00:25:36] and the only thing that's really changes the heat and then you have another day where you see the same spike from other super hot day and then the third day you see the same spike

[00:25:44] and then you start knowing okay so this is how many people more are dying because of a one degree in season heat and that's how you get it

[00:25:52] so we talked about heat and heat waves being such a contextual understanding it's not just a temperature reaching above a certain threshold

[00:26:03] so I'm assuming to counter that to have any sort of preventive measures against it would also need to be as contextual and it would be as complex a process

[00:26:16] as just categorizing something as heat waves so how do you go about doing that like your paper is all about a heat action plan probably I think it's your favorite word

[00:26:27] so what is a heat action plan and how does one go about doing any sort of action against something which is so contextual so varied

[00:26:39] yeah I think the day heat action plans end up in the dictionary is a day we know we're in big trouble

[00:26:46] so I hope this is a term of art used by media and policy people and people outside well they should know it they should know it

[00:26:55] but not enough that it's like Oxford's word of the year

[00:26:59] so when a heat wave is declared these guidance documents that governments develop at a local level

[00:27:07] so say at the city level or at the district level and they'll try and determine what the temperature threshold is for the heat wave

[00:27:16] like we just discussed and then a set of measures to prevent the loss of life so they'll have an information dissemination system

[00:27:22] where they'll declare a heat wave and tell people this is a heat wave this is the color of a lot so it's a yellow alert red alert

[00:27:30] whatever and this is very similar to what we've seen with say cyclone warnings and flood warnings in some basins in India

[00:27:39] and it'll encourage people to take a set of precautionary measures that allow them to save their lives

[00:27:46] but heat action plans also more than that because they also talk about long term measures to reduce the heat effect in a particular place

[00:27:56] so these are measures that will take many years to implement sometimes that takes time to do because there's land planning and investment and all of that

[00:28:04] if you want to build trees and trees are really some of the best ways to decrease the temperature

[00:28:08] and I think anybody who moves from a city to a very shaded park area nearby there's a park on the side of the street or a forest

[00:28:16] and you'll immediately feel the decrease in temperature

[00:28:19] 100% yeah

[00:28:20] but that takes 20 years sometimes to do right so there's a bunch of long term measures if you want to change

[00:28:25] like we were talking about all your change in nature of your building

[00:28:28] housing yeah

[00:28:29] that requires a policy intervention that requires some sort of subsidies that require training of architects

[00:28:35] that require a whole bunch of things and all those things

[00:28:37] also that would require going through so much of bureaucracy and like a

[00:28:41] yeah yeah

[00:28:42] to just get through all of the what clearances need to be taken yeah

[00:28:46] and it's also it's not just that it's also a change in mindsets and a shift in what's acceptable

[00:28:52] a shift in aesthetics you know all of those things have to change

[00:28:55] I also holistic planning right it would it would require holistic planning where a lot of different parties kind of come together

[00:29:03] and decide that this is how the city would need to be planned because right now I mean you're from Delhi so you know

[00:29:09] and annoyed especially like construction is everywhere and construction and construction

[00:29:14] dust also adds to the heat I'm assuming

[00:29:17] and it's very unplanned it's very half a sort so yeah

[00:29:22] it seems like a very kind of unimaginable goal to have that kind of planning

[00:29:28] it almost feels like everything that we are building is sort of adding to our destruction

[00:29:35] however dark it may sound like like construction is adding to all of this all of these automobile proliferation

[00:29:42] will at the end add to the heat so

[00:29:45] it's a very doomsday kind of a picture

[00:29:48] I think there's a legitimate push for better lifestyles

[00:29:52] and better buildings better cooling better cars and all of that

[00:29:58] all this has an effect on the climate system right I think there is a it's almost zero sum in terms of

[00:30:04] you know you do something that's carbon intensive it changes the atmosphere

[00:30:09] and that then leads to a bunch of impacts and there's a feedback that much we know for sure

[00:30:15] this consensus in the policy world that it is not unimaginable to have a sustainable sort of climate

[00:30:22] resilient lifestyle and society and future I think there's been convergence on this question

[00:30:28] would you say that these things are currently at just a policy level and not infiltrated on an institutional level

[00:30:35] because you said that there is great convergence on a policy level but I would assume that's on a very academic level

[00:30:41] no no has it trickled down to the institutions that's what I'm asking now yeah

[00:30:45] this convergence convergence in the policy research about it

[00:30:50] but I also feel like there is a down up thing also happening well like regular people

[00:30:56] when they get more aware when they you know want to take action

[00:31:00] they also can hold these institutions accountable so I feel like it happens from both sides

[00:31:05] a little little by little slowly so it's not just necessarily top down

[00:31:10] it's not entirely top down right I think there is a top down element of like setting the imagination

[00:31:15] what is a good solution what's a good idea what works but then accountability is hugely important

[00:31:20] right transparency is hugely important the media is hugely important

[00:31:24] these are all the things that make public the public machinery function better

[00:31:29] and I mean at the core of it is also public engagement with the issue which I think with heat

[00:31:35] what you're suggesting earlier is increased quite a bit I think

[00:31:38] there's so much interest in it every every major paper every major publication across the world seems to be covering this

[00:31:44] is like front and center in the climate landscape

[00:31:47] and also the fact that we have climate change sections in our newspapers now

[00:31:52] and climate reporters which is a new thing yeah somebody would just covering the climate news

[00:32:01] I think this podcast is also an exercise in that like we wanted to talk about heat and all

[00:32:07] simply because usually when we talk about heat and especially heat waves in India

[00:32:13] it's on a personal level you can do like Anushka was telling me while we were developing this episode

[00:32:18] we always talk about water and stay hydrated stay indoors

[00:32:22] but going ahead one step further what is something that can be done on a policy level on a greater level

[00:32:29] which as you said can change things 15-20 years down the line

[00:32:33] because that's what the plan should be because right now we are dealing with things that happened 20 years ago

[00:32:39] or at least the things that started happening 20 years ago so what changes can we make right now

[00:32:44] that you know show effects in 20 years interesting

[00:32:48] So I actually that kind of reminds me I wanted to ask also we constantly hear about this 1.5 degree Celsius threshold

[00:32:56] that is likely to cross soon so what does that kind of mean what does that mean for the population

[00:33:02] Current average temperature rise from pre-industrial levels right so that's the peg in climate policy

[00:33:09] that's the peg everyone uses because that's before fossil fuels were being burnt in a big way

[00:33:13] before the industrial revolution and large scale rise of fossil fuel based manufacturing

[00:33:18] our average temperature has now increased 1.1 degrees from that level

[00:33:23] What is the 1.5 so I'm guessing you're talking about the news report on the WMO

[00:33:30] suggesting that we will reach 1.5 degrees that came out last week

[00:33:34] So what that is is the WMO does climate modeling for a 5-year period so it's done it for 2023 to 27

[00:33:44] and what they found is that it is more likely than not that we will breach 1.5 degrees of warming

[00:33:55] from the pre-industrial average for at least one of the next 5 years

[00:34:01] However it's very important to note that this 1.5 threshold that they are suggesting is temporary

[00:34:08] and it's based on a set of climate logical factors such as the El Nino effect and all of that

[00:34:13] It doesn't suggest a long term average breach of the 1.5 which is what the Paris agreement is based on

[00:34:20] So it has to be a long term average increase of 1.5 we're still closer to 1.1 than 1.5 on that front

[00:34:27] but it's psychologically important that in extreme climate conditions you will get extreme rises

[00:34:34] increases in heat and all these other effects such as more heat waves and so on

[00:34:40] So it'll at least shift our thinking from the climate is changing

[00:34:45] like the climate will change and climate change say like it has changed and it has been changing

[00:34:52] and just kind of circling back to the heat action plans so you co-author a report which is published by the Center for Policy Research in India

[00:35:03] and you reviewed 37 heat action plans across India right

[00:35:08] So let's just get into the heat action plans that you have reviewed the things that you have found through the process

[00:35:16] First of all how did you go about doing it what was the process like how did you get access to a lot of these documents and the plans and so forth

[00:35:29] The first thing was actually to build a database of heat action plans because there's no central repository right

[00:35:34] Heat action planning happens at a hyper decentralized level so different cities district states will have their own versions of it

[00:35:41] And all of this is ideally supposed to respond very much to local context right it's supposed to respond to who's most vulnerable what sort of heat that they heath they have we were discussing temperature thresholds and mortality so

[00:35:54] What what sort of mortality numbers they've had historically and all of those things and then we had to get in touch with state disaster management authorities

[00:36:06] And health departments and so on in different states we had to go to nearly I think we went to nearly all the states

[00:36:13] And then we analyze them for all the things we talk about right do they set local temperature thresholds do they talk about humid heat or warm nights and all the other things that matter beyond just the absolute right temperature

[00:36:26] Do they have vulnerability assessments where they actually look at the city or their town and figure that the most vulnerable people do heat are here in the sense of these are the people are most exposed for example such as you know migrant construction workers or gig workers were you know on their motor mics all day or traffic cops

[00:36:48] Or people who are inherently vulnerable because of how their bodies are so angry people pregnant women and then we also try to understand what sort of solutions that proposing and we talked about some of them you know long term short term what kind of things do they bake into it and then we finally build a set of indicators around

[00:37:08] How implementable these are so they financed do they have some sort of legal backing what kind of review mechanisms to they have what kind of learning mechanisms because heat action plans is supposed to be updated constantly it's not like you have one plan and use it for 10 years because all these parameters are changing

[00:37:25] Migrant populations might move from one neighbor to another one neighborhood might get gentrified in other neighborhoods might fall back on harder time so you have to like map all of these things constantly and also getting new data about the solutions you implement right what I'm painting is a picture of a pretty complex document.

[00:37:41] The solutions in the middle that I talked about across a pretty much every department yeah it's what the sanitation urban development housing public health all these departments have to coordinate an implementation of a heat action plan so talking about this I was going through your paper and the kind of solutions that I saw they were things that you don't necessarily associate with the

[00:38:11] something as extreme as a heat wave like changing how your weddings happen yeah so like there were the recommendation like don't have weddings in the day which is something as basic but you don't expect something like that to be in a document like that or or ensure that there is power supply because we know that power cuts and all is a problem in across all urban city so ensure ensuring that least in those months there are no power cuts in those hours so the

[00:38:41] weddings and school timings and these are two big common behavioral tweaks that the state tries to enforce a lot of it is left a personal adaptation but then the government will come in and say these is some of the behavioral changes you need to make in your live like day to day day routine.

[00:39:00] But the most important one and the hardest implements probably having a moratorium on work during extreme heat hours between 12 and 412 and 5 because that is a direct confrontation between

[00:39:13] the people who are working so labor and the people who own the capital and our building buildings and building you know so this is a direct confrontation so you need to create systems and institutions that allow

[00:39:27] for those differences to be papered over so your paper was essentially like a comparison between all of these heat action plans right so looking at the problem definitions the solutions that was applied and all the other factors is there is there are you know particular document that you found which was which was a good document essentially which was something that

[00:39:49] that really seemed to work well which fed well in all the departments. I should say would what would you if there was like a award season as a Oscar of heat action plans I'm sure you would have had that in your mind what would be who would have the best

[00:40:06] heat action plan no trophy. So this is actually a good moment to make a plug for localization of heat action plans right because we went in very much with the mindset that we

[00:40:19] cannot and should not be passing judgment on a heat action plan because the whole mantra of this thing is that it has to be built around the local effects the local population structures

[00:40:32] the availability of resources so on so forth right a good heat action plan is a strategic heat action plan as somebody sat through and taught through this is what I have at my disposal this is the problem these are my constraints this is what I can do so if that's

[00:40:49] a one page document that is super bare bones that's fine that's fine right but what we try to do is try and make sure that a certain set of bare bones necessities of doing the

[00:41:05] vulnerability assessment of making sure you have some level of financing those things were checked right but there was some that had good elements to them right so for example the bone

[00:41:16] as well heat action plan I think the large court heat action plan had vulnerability assessments so they actually went neighbor to neighborhood and looked at the things

[00:41:25] that you were talking about so do they have access to electricity do they have access to water what is there per capita income which means you know can they take a day of work when it's super hot and they're feeling heat stress right so you test all

[00:41:36] of these things go ward by ward and they had a map where they said these are the four words where the people are the most vulnerable have the least adaptive capacity so direct all your resources there or most of your resources

[00:41:50] there and introduces a huge new efficiency because now you can you know 20% of your geographic area is going to give 80% of your of your resilience right and probably 80% of your life saved which means it's much,

[00:42:05] much, much easier to implement now it's gone from a city plan to being a four ward implementation plan with city wide effects and then those words might also have their very hyper local things that can

[00:42:17] be accommodated right yeah exactly so if you're scrutinizing these words a little bit more you'll get a different flavor of what the heat manipulations on how to deal with them say street to street or sometimes even household to household right I mean that's that's in our imagination

[00:42:35] that's how far you could go with having like really specific heat responses which comes back to this idea of like testing the temperature and all sorts of different places because literally it changes based on like what your roof is where your window is this and the other right yeah

[00:42:49] the heat actually plans are generally unfunded so only two of them explicitly stated where they could get their funding from but they were quite creative about it right so they were saying okay you know there's finance commission so they have a little bit of money that all of these state schemes that we can draw on those two or three of them that made those linkages.

[00:43:11] I would assume that some allocation might be you know made from the state government or central guys that not a thing for heat action plans no so we didn't find we didn't find instances of dedicated funding for heat action plans in any of the 37 so it's not like they came and okay here's 100 grows for five years now implement all of these changes

[00:43:31] completely change the complexion of this right if you're changing a built environment changing your streets changing how you plant trees and all of those things and you had an allocation then it there's a much higher chance to get implemented it's not a guarantee but there's a much higher chance here most often in eight of the 37 plans we found that they were asking implementing line departments to source funding from their existing budgets okay which is a tricky thing because a lot of governments in a lot of departments

[00:43:59] don't have the money they need to implement what they need to implement right there's a constant problem in local government across the country some states are better off than others but now you add this completely new multi sector policy problem like heat into the mix and here's a heat action plan which by the way most of them didn't have any legal foundation so it's not like they were notified under a law.

[00:44:24] So wait what do you mean they didn't have a legal foundation but love it wasn't enforceable yeah so a lot of times a policy or a plan will be notified under a law so a law establishes what the government is supposed to be doing and then you have a policy or plan that is giving effect to the objectives of the law and that becomes enforceable also because it is the law of the land.

[00:44:50] So you don't do it you're essentially in violation of exactly but there are a lot of climate policy also operates outside and a lot of policy in India and across the world operates outside the ambit of law right it is just within the executive branch of government is how the executive branch of government is operationalizing their policy objectives so in this case it's heat EVs for example a lot of times don't come under laws you know so there's there's a variety of different like policy approaches

[00:45:20] that are followed and you're saying a huge chunk of these heat action plans don't have a legal foundation yeah we didn't we didn't find any I think there were two after us study one or two after a study that we heard had made the effort to notify themselves under the disaster management act

[00:45:37] that's one thing there was university missing finances one thing some some heat action plans made an effort to do but that's still a very early stage conversation we need to figure out financing for heat action plans it is a complex policy problem doing vulnerability assessments figuring our temperature thresholds getting the mortality data all of them did different so the mortality data front a couple of them actually established reporting mechanisms for local hospitals primary health care centers

[00:46:07] et cetera asking them to send upwards to the state capital mortality and morbidity data for heat so they're trying to establish this kind of like backbone of data reporting so it's happening in in in different places different levels there were good elements from all of this and I think the question is can you get

[00:46:25] all heat action plans to have these good elements baked into them because not all of them have it right so can we get all of them to be thinking about these things and then localize the measures localize your response

[00:46:40] and also I mean heat action plans are fairly new in India right like you said like a decade older so so have have there been heat action plans another part of the world which may have you know acted as inspiration so where we have seen the effects of it what works what I mean of course like you mentioned we've been talking about it it's very contract contextualized like depends on the context a lot but

[00:47:07] what is it like in other parts of the world has it been implemented successfully so here a couple of common trends right financing is a problem across the heat planning universe I mean a lot of heat action plans very few of them actually have significant dedicated resources and generally found that in a few places where there

[00:47:30] have been significant heat deaths and there's been a major heat wave death event they're more likely to build out a little bit of financing especially for the public health care side may or may not do it for all the other long term measures but at least for public health you know ambulance capacity making to their cooling centers and stuff there be emergency allocations

[00:47:50] but in general finance is a problem mostly heat action plans also soft in the sense that they don't have a hard legal foundation did not know to find a law even internationally internationally so this is this is a global question and some some in Europe in other places have made the effort of doing that

[00:48:08] the third element of this is in terms of institutional structures a lot of countries by lot I mean eight I think it can't have this institutional invasion of the chief heat officer that's supposed to actually coordinate all of this sound like a pretty cool design chief heat officer yeah I think Brazil has a heat officer remember reading what is at some point I think it present the eight countries and I think

[00:48:38] all of them are women which is very very interesting and probably lens a very very different approach to vulnerability and understanding vulnerability and so on so some of the things I think globally we can we can learn from and of course you know a lot of them do vulnerability assessments it very high degrees of sophistication figuring out exactly where the most vulnerable people are and so on so yeah

[00:49:03] we talked about the different heat action plans you went through as part of your study we talked about international heat action plans I want to bring it back home and talk about Delhi what is the situation with Delhi because according to a study done at the University of Cambridge the entire city is under the danger mark when it comes to heat right more ways than one but also heat yeah

[00:49:33] but Delhi doesn't seem to have a heat action plan green piece has written a letter to Irwin Kajriwal about yeah castle rabai so a capital city like Delhi which is the bedrock of heat waves I think and specially for us as media people it is a problem that we cover almost on a daily basis like we see every day there are reports of heat wave alerts and you know people going through all of these problems in Delhi

[00:50:02] why do you think there is such bigger gap where the capital city of a country like India which has historically gone through such a huge problem of heat doesn't have a plan in action yeah I don't have a Delhi specific answer for you this is something that when we started the heat work actually we wanted to start by testing the implementation of Delhi heat action plan and we heard that it existed so this is a couple of years ago

[00:50:31] so we went down looking for it and then we found that there wasn't a heat action plan we talked to people in government and we found out there wasn't a heat action plan we know that they they have been thinking about it

[00:50:42] and it's been in the works for a while and there have been drafts that have been passed around and so on but I don't actually know why it's not been released

[00:50:50] at some point I think they were thinking about releasing a bit of Delhi's climate plan which has not come out so it's an open question and I guess it's something that obviously as you say it needs to be done very quickly

[00:51:06] very quickly and if we can have one now has the heat that's great I mean and definitely before next summer it has to I think be out but I want to point to a larger thing I think Delhi it's you know justifiably getting getting attention but we don't know if heat action plans exist in a lot of other cities

[00:51:30] so of all the metros how many of them actually have heat action plans so in our study after looking around we didn't have Mumbai didn't have a heat action plan Chennai didn't have one cold gutter didn't have one

[00:51:44] Delhi doesn't have one for sure and you know there's a bunch of very hot places Jodhpur, Jairpur, Rajasthan you know bunch of places

[00:51:53] they didn't have any like not even at a local level no so when you say Delhi doesn't have our Jodhpur or Bombay doesn't have a heat action plan it's like there is no plan that we were able to access

[00:52:06] let me put it that way right so we don't know what exists because we had like I said we were building the first repository of heat action plans in the country

[00:52:15] and this is based on just like going to people and putting things together Jodhpur now has a heat action plan

[00:52:25] and a very good one in the sense it has a very good vulnerability assessment so it has a very detailed methodology on that

[00:52:32] but the problem here is where in a policy space where the problem is amplifying and ramping up so fast that you don't have the traditional timelines

[00:52:41] and it would take to have a policy spread right now you have the WMO coming out and saying 1.5 degrees 10 years ago it would have been kind of inconceivable to think that we breached in 2022 to 2027 for at least one year more likely than not

[00:52:56] right so suddenly we're faced with this new reality and like we were talking about earlier climate change is here dangerous climate change is here

[00:53:03] and so now we need a huge collective response so the traditional timelines and steady state rhythms of policy making need to be amplified very quickly

[00:53:13] that's the reason we have coverage coverage problems

[00:53:17] okay interesting so we are going to close in a bit and I just want to ask we've discussed so much about heat and definitely it's a very hot topic but not intended

[00:53:31] all intended

[00:53:34] but what can people like me and Anushka do about it at the end and this goes to a more deeper existential question that will something like heat or climate change ever be an electoral issue

[00:53:49] because as we were talking about putting pressure and implementation bottom up I mean what can the people in the bottom of the chain do?

[00:53:57] yeah I think if your first question was in reference to the media obviously it's a huge amount that the media can do right in deepening heat coverage

[00:54:06] and trying to get the places that we don't talk about now so you'll get a lot of coverage in Mumbai won't get a lot of coverage

[00:54:12] actually these are traditional traditional gaps in media coverage is not heat specific is in general but the thing is heat is one of those things

[00:54:20] it has very different effects for different people right so some of the more rural reporting around agriculture and agriculture effects how it's affecting farmers incomes

[00:54:29] and so on is actually very interesting I mean there are stories out there that talk about this so just to keep covering it

[00:54:35] and also you know build the heat action plans more into the coverage which is what do the heat action plans say what was supposed to be done

[00:54:44] what is being done what is not being done right these questions of basic accountability implementation are very important

[00:54:51] the next phase of our own research is actually about testing whether these things are being implemented at all right so this is just the first cut

[00:54:57] then next phase of our research is actually trying to understand whether implementation is happening and we suspect there's a wide degree of variation between states and districts

[00:55:09] so on some probably implemented better than others in terms of electoral concerns and what the broad popular perception of climate changes and if heat is

[00:55:20] at the moment it's not really front and center and we know that climate change is not operating at the same political level

[00:55:28] it's operating at in say in Australia or the US or the UK where it's actually something that's swinging national elections

[00:55:36] we've entered a phase where it can swing national election elections of major democracies

[00:55:41] we are not there yet the way climate change probably operates through second order effects so it will operate through changes

[00:55:49] in agricultural markets changes in inflation settlement patterns because of migration and so on

[00:55:57] migration and then the whole people cost related to that right exactly so it will operate in those second order effects

[00:56:04] so climate change will be a for sure a electoral change probably but it will operate from behind the scenes

[00:56:09] because there isn't a lot of cognitive tagging of climate change being the problem we need to solve it

[00:56:15] then I think you start seeing heat action plan implementation be more electoral resilience

[00:56:20] you'll have like this patchwork of areas of the climate policy universe that I elect or we sell in

[00:56:26] and then you'll have a bunch of things that are too technocratic and people don't really care about

[00:56:32] but I have a feeling in India it's going to be more focused on adaptation and impacts and resilience rather than on decarbonisation

[00:56:40] because decarbonisation is almost a luxury to a lot of people right like they don't have real choices of like

[00:56:47] can I do I choose an EV versus internal combustion engine and so on

[00:56:51] I will use anything including a second third hand scooter to get my kids to school on time and then get to work

[00:56:58] right so it's about graduating from a cycle to a scooter is not really about graduating from a car to an internal combustion car to an electric vehicle

[00:57:07] so it'll probably all be on the impact seriously inside

[00:57:10] sometimes I just feel like whenever somebody comes around my locality to do their party campaigning

[00:57:17] and I'll just get them inside and we like what are you doing for climate change

[00:57:21] how will you how will you ensure net zero in this Mahalla

[00:57:26] no but that's I she's a good point right so in some of my previous work I interact a little bit more with MLA's

[00:57:33] and local you know grassroots politicians and even there I think there's like a universal acknowledgement that stuff is happening

[00:57:41] but an actual understanding of what climate change is and what the localised impacts are going to be is not there

[00:57:47] right so if you ask them what do you think your constituency is going to look like in 50 years

[00:57:53] sadly the most common response I get is it's well beyond my time

[00:57:58] and I'm really and I got a very frank answer from one MLA who is now a pretty prominent politician in that state

[00:58:08] who said it's beyond my time everything happens on a five-year cycle

[00:58:13] I am elected to deliver things on a five-year cycle if you're expecting me to make a political moves that incur benefits

[00:58:25] well beyond the time I'm in active politics at the cost of things that actually are about the next election

[00:58:32] then that's not really a good use of my time or resources

[00:58:37] so it's about these and it won't be in their best interest to think about

[00:58:41] yeah and this is the problem with adaptation right at any adaptation he's flooding coastal rise all of these things

[00:58:49] yeah there's a huge political incentive problem at the heart of it which is if you do it

[00:58:55] your forstalling impacts it might be felt only many years later

[00:58:59] yeah a lot of times these are invisible things that actually have no direct benefits

[00:59:04] so a heat action plan is not building you a spanking new highway or a brand new dam

[00:59:10] like that ribbon cutnayka koi program new rana osman

[00:59:13] and also these these things like building roads and stuff are still even in the

[00:59:19] water mines are a big you know parameter of successful government

[00:59:24] yeah even apart from heat action we asked people okay why do you prefer this party or this government or whatever

[00:59:31] a big answer is or there will be a lot of roads or highways yeah something this is tangible

[00:59:37] yeah and like with air pollution so interesting to see this conversation about small towns

[00:59:42] right which may not be the best I think a lot of experts seem to think may may not be fully effective

[00:59:48] but this is now you know the thing that has attracted the most attention capture the most policy makers

[00:59:54] imaginations the benefits will only come 10 15 years down the line 5 years down the line

[00:59:59] so it may be well after the political cycle but the second problem is what are the benefits

[01:00:05] the benefits are nothing happened like you've won when nothing has happened

[01:00:11] yeah so then what's so you made the investment nothing has happened what is the political game

[01:00:17] also it must also be well beyond the voters time also

[01:00:21] but also on a slightly optimistic note also I think the younger generation of voters will be coming up

[01:00:26] there is at least hope that they would care more about climate change is being like a you know important

[01:00:32] I did a couple of stories with a lot of these young climate activists and it's quite refreshing to see

[01:00:41] I mean maybe it's their age but it's refreshing to see how passionate they are and how much they

[01:00:46] you know want to take action not just in little little things but also big things like reaching out to

[01:00:52] their local minister reaching out to people who actually have the authority to make differences and hold them accountable

[01:01:00] so possibly hopefully it will become an electoral thing too

[01:01:05] So we have statistics actually on what global warming awareness and beliefs are

[01:01:12] this is brand new because it's 2022 statistics it's a survey that try to understand

[01:01:17] how climate change is perceived and it's called climate change and the Indian mind

[01:01:22] and here's I think what gives us a little bit of pause right so they say that 54% of people in India say

[01:01:30] they know either just a little about global warming or have never heard of it

[01:01:37] while only 9% they say they know a lot

[01:01:41] their study also seems to indicate that awareness and concern about climate change is very much fragmented along

[01:01:49] socio-economic lines so the people who are most concerned are rich people with high levels of access to information

[01:01:57] and that dramatically drops as you go further down the socio-economic ladder but as we've talked about it's the people

[01:02:04] who are most likely to be affected by heat or coastal erosion or flooding these are the people who are the least likely to understand why it's happening to them

[01:02:16] and all of that but interestingly and here's the other side of it

[01:02:20] here's the counterpoint 74% say that they have experienced the effect of global warming

[01:02:28] and that's a plus 24% increase since 2011 so more people are feeling it not enough people know about it

[01:02:38] and those that know about it and care about it are the people who have the most money to protect themselves

[01:02:43] without state intervention

[01:02:45] and the people who are feeling it they might not be able to connect it with something like climate change

[01:02:50] yeah exactly so you're feeling ki garmi pardre hai but you're not necessarily able to connect this to some a grander phenomenon

[01:02:58] yeah there is also data on that which is 57% think the global warming is caused mostly by human activities

[01:03:06] and 31% think it's caused mostly by natural changes in environment

[01:03:10] so it seems more people than not think that it is because of stuff that we are doing

[01:03:16] but whether it's connected to climate change and climate change policy is therefore getting more attention I highly doubt it

[01:03:23] before the 2019 election both the BJPs in congresses election manifestos was studied for their mentions of climate change

[01:03:31] and I think it was like less than 1% of the text had to do with climate related issues on both parties

[01:03:40] so that's the indicator right so that's the smoking there was my optimism

[01:03:46] at least one optimistic one percent mention

[01:03:52] but I think before we like wind up I just want to ask to the people who are listening to this podcast

[01:03:58] so I have two questions one is if you had like one thing to tell people who are listening to this podcast what would it be

[01:04:04] and also if there are three like influential people who can make a change who are listening to this podcast

[01:04:12] which is unlikely but hypothetically they are who would who do you hope it is

[01:04:18] and what is it that you would want to tell them imagine that they are listening to it and they heard it

[01:04:23] and they have the power to do it like that so who would those people be

[01:04:27] and first first if the general listener is listening to us what would you want them

[01:04:32] what is the one thing that you would want them to do

[01:04:34] that's a tough one that's a really tough one I would say I mean something that's benefited me a lot

[01:04:42] I would say just sort of keep your eyes open

[01:04:45] read a little bit about what's going on and try and connect that to your innate sense of human empathy

[01:04:55] which is try and think about what people are going through because of this it's not easy to do

[01:05:01] but ultimately the only way we're going to get out of this whole climate change thing

[01:05:06] is if we discover ways of being empathetic and having some level of solidarity with the people around us

[01:05:16] I think we need to think about human suffering a little bit more

[01:05:20] in terms of three influential people I would say the MLA to me is a very important cog

[01:05:28] in the machinery of Indian public administration also in making sure there's some level of climate justice

[01:05:35] I would really hope that they sort of try and grapple with what he means for them in their jurisdiction

[01:05:42] the finance managers of various governments like has to be finance

[01:05:47] this is really really really key and finally I would probably say if there are researchers listening

[01:05:58] to climate researchers policy researchers I think there's so much more work that needs to be done on climate policy

[01:06:04] so these are probably the three people including I mean because podcasts I think are listened to more by younger

[01:06:12] audience groups if any of these people are in the making in your audience

[01:06:20] so if you are starting to be a finance manager or are in local student politics

[01:06:28] or currently doing a master's in the way they want to do it I should do a PhD

[01:06:34] those folks right so this is really the agenda of the future

[01:06:39] so those are I think be the three people

[01:06:43] so if you guys are listening and you are amongst these people please

[01:06:48] or if you know somebody who's a MLA or something share it with them and go

[01:06:54] they're saying do something, your name is not clear but do something about it

[01:07:00] the way MLA is work right so it works so hard

[01:07:03] I shadowed a few MLAs it's incredibly wake up early in the morning

[01:07:08] it's cool you know it's like some of these children it's like a party meeting

[01:07:12] and then finish at 12 at night there is no time to digest like a 35 page report

[01:07:18] from the center of policy research so just go as you know in one of those

[01:07:22] Shadi's just go up to them and say have you heard about sheetweens?

[01:07:26] Lifa Fadeh Tsa me Lifa Fadeh Tsa me Sarsari Chawar

[01:07:32] and also I would say even more influential then in that case

[01:07:35] then an MLA is an MLA is assistant

[01:07:38] so when MLA is assistant to listen to it make all the notes, PS

[01:07:42] make a page document in those are good

[01:07:45] Oh put it in speech, oh put it in his speech

[01:07:48] Thank you so much for being here today

[01:07:50] this was a very lovely conversation

[01:07:52] but also we were talking about heat ways and heat

[01:07:55] so much but it was always on the back of my mind also because for the last two hours

[01:07:59] all the fans in AC's in my room has been also

[01:08:03] I've been feeling it firsthand just how you know bad it is

[01:08:08] but yeah quite an audio to get through

[01:08:11] Yeah both of you must be really baking

[01:08:13] please stay turn your ACs on and thank you for enduring this for two hours

[01:08:18] so it's a pleasure being on

[01:08:20] No thank you so much

[01:08:22] Thank you very much

[01:08:24] It was a great chat

[01:08:28] and Anushka how was it?

[01:08:31] how first thoughts were told

[01:08:33] I am sweating

[01:08:35] Not from anxiety of listening to

[01:08:38] Azhatiya were just having the fans in AC off in my room for the last two hours

[01:08:44] If you listen to this conversation in the middle of the night

[01:08:47] then we have been playing the music

[01:08:52] We don't care about the audio quality because we are sweating literally

[01:08:55] Yes

[01:08:57] So Anushka how was it?

[01:09:00] Very enlightening

[01:09:02] But if we go

[01:09:03] Oh my God you have to stop

[01:09:05] Dude I really liked his watch

[01:09:08] I mean his watch

[01:09:10] He was really big

[01:09:11] But I feel like I would just get very paranoid if I had something like that

[01:09:14] Like I would just keep checking

[01:09:16] Exactly

[01:09:17] I would keep checking my oxygen levels

[01:09:19] Yeah

[01:09:20] Because he was with me this week

[01:09:22] When I got the oxygen meter

[01:09:24] I would keep checking my oxygen levels

[01:09:26] I was totally tired

[01:09:28] I was totally tired

[01:09:32] So glad you mentioned Covid

[01:09:34] because even in our discussion

[01:09:36] he drew a lot of parallels to Covid

[01:09:38] And I really found that so interesting

[01:09:42] Because in a way the whole problem of Covid

[01:09:45] While it was very focused and it happened over two years

[01:09:49] And you know

[01:09:51] He felt something similar

[01:09:54] Because the cause of the problem is so vast

[01:09:57] It has so many more variables than normal

[01:10:00] Just a piece of cheese

[01:10:02] Then the people it's affecting is so

[01:10:05] Again that's so differential

[01:10:07] It's not affecting everybody equally

[01:10:09] Just as we were talking about during Covid

[01:10:11] And then similarly the kinds of

[01:10:13] Plans and the kinds of

[01:10:15] Mitigation tactics that we had for Covid

[01:10:18] In the heat waves scene

[01:10:19] I was very similar to where it's not a one size fits all solution

[01:10:23] It has to be hyper local

[01:10:25] His biggest critique actually of all the heat action plans

[01:10:29] Was that there was a lack of

[01:10:31] Definition of vulnerable groups

[01:10:33] And it being a very hyper localized model

[01:10:35] Which is the same thing

[01:10:37] We were talking about Covid at the same time

[01:10:39] But don't you think it's interesting that

[01:10:41] Covid even though it was like a very new virus to us within

[01:10:45] Like say two years we were able to

[01:10:47] Quiet effectively isolate who the vulnerable groups are

[01:10:51] How we can deal with it

[01:10:53] We got vaccines for it

[01:10:55] Like there's a lot of action that happened really quickly

[01:10:58] But with heat I feel like

[01:11:00] Or just climate change in general has been an issue for

[01:11:03] I feel like a long time when people have been talking about it

[01:11:06] But like he said there's so many caveats to coming up with the solution

[01:11:13] And also the kind of motivation to find a solution

[01:11:17] Because I really like how he talked about

[01:11:20] Unless there's like a tangible result

[01:11:23] Something to show for your success

[01:11:25] Neither politicians

[01:11:27] You know leaders, nor the voters

[01:11:30] People who are to hold them accountable really

[01:11:33] Consider it a success unless there's something to show for it

[01:11:38] I really like that MLA but not MLA

[01:11:40] But that politician has a story

[01:11:42] Where he's like my time in the U.S.

[01:11:44] So why would care?

[01:11:46] Which is such a...

[01:11:47] Yeah and that's a real thing

[01:11:49] And also I mean it was the beginning of the episode

[01:11:53] We talked about how an infrastructure really plays a role in heat waves

[01:11:58] But I didn't realize it was this bad

[01:12:01] I didn't realize to what extent and how each decision and the kind of material you use

[01:12:07] Where you build, what you build around it

[01:12:09] Like so

[01:12:10] Exactly

[01:12:11] All of it contributes to the heat wave

[01:12:15] Yes, 100%

[01:12:17] Even like the CPR research, the critique wasn't like a

[01:12:21] It didn't single out a particular problem

[01:12:23] So it talked about the short term solutions

[01:12:25] You know the medium term single season

[01:12:27] Throughout the solution and then the long term solutions

[01:12:30] Which really goes to show the fastness of this problem

[01:12:35] Right, so everything from making sure that there is electricity supply

[01:12:40] During those hours

[01:12:42] To in the long term changing how your automobile system works

[01:12:46] And all of that

[01:12:47] Everything is a solution to heat waves

[01:12:50] Yeah and also changing working hours

[01:12:52] Changing work is a...

[01:12:53] So it will be a paradigm shift

[01:12:55] But you also mentioned some...

[01:12:57] All of the sounds quite like huge, like quite a distant dream kind of a thing

[01:13:03] But you also mentioned some really small small things that you can do on a person level

[01:13:07] That you don't necessarily think of like what time you have your weddings

[01:13:10] Or you know like

[01:13:12] I mean this is also administrative but like what time...

[01:13:15] The school timings of kids

[01:13:18] And things like that

[01:13:19] Which at least on a smaller level can help

[01:13:22] And these are things which are doable

[01:13:24] Yeah exactly

[01:13:26] I can see it happening, that a school decides

[01:13:29] Because of heat waves we will have our schools school time during the night

[01:13:33] Maybe not night but like evening

[01:13:35] Would you would you rather have the school during the evening or the night

[01:13:39] I would say night because anyway we would have to stay at night

[01:13:42] And if we would have to stay at night in school

[01:13:45] It's a little bit small for kids

[01:13:47] But yeah I mean I get your point

[01:13:49] But still yeah a little...

[01:13:50] It's a peak time and especially

[01:13:52] This is again like a personal thing

[01:13:54] When he was talking about school timings and all this

[01:13:56] I was talking to him that

[01:13:58] Do something, do something

[01:14:00] Don't keep a PTP period in the house

[01:14:03] Because I remember when we were in school

[01:14:06] They used to be our PTP period

[01:14:08] And obviously we are kids who would have to play with us

[01:14:11] If we had to do it then as soon as some ball

[01:14:13] Football would be thrown we would all start running

[01:14:15] But after that we would just die inside

[01:14:18] Yeah

[01:14:19] And I can only imagine what would happen to the kids right now

[01:14:22] So it's pretty like for school children

[01:14:25] And like the people who are working outside

[01:14:28] And even apart from play time

[01:14:30] We had those mandatory PTP remember

[01:14:33] Where they would make us do like Kasrat standing outside in the sun

[01:14:37] It was pretty weird

[01:14:39] Oh yes

[01:14:40] As Emily

[01:14:43] Oh man

[01:14:44] Yeah

[01:14:45] This as Emily you've touched on and no

[01:14:48] Let's swirl back before you go down from a trail

[01:14:54] Very interesting you mentioned this because towards the end

[01:14:57] We asked him if there are a few people who would listen to influential people

[01:15:02] Who you would want to send these this podcast to

[01:15:06] I think a lot of them could be school principals and school administrators

[01:15:10] And office administrators right

[01:15:12] Because something like this while we had discussed at length

[01:15:15] At the very level of change we had a lot of time

[01:15:18] There's so much bureaucracy, so many different ministries and departments will have to work in tandem

[01:15:23] But in small pockets, small apartments

[01:15:26] Small houses, small houses, these changes will be easier

[01:15:30] So I think I would want to direct this episode to people like that

[01:15:35] Which means the residents welfare association president

[01:15:38] Send them to send them to implement their school roof in their apartments

[01:15:43] And they will say to the principal of some school

[01:15:45] To eat your timing then incorporate heat as part of your daily thinking

[01:15:51] During the heat seasons

[01:15:53] And do heat wave planning in their own little capacities

[01:15:59] Even if not at a city or a town level

[01:16:02] I think any administration can start thinking of heat action

[01:16:07] Plans as part of their planning in general

[01:16:11] Oh yeah that will be so interesting of some Joe

[01:16:14] Because like again the biggest critique of all of these heat action plans was that it wasn't localized enough

[01:16:19] Right?

[01:16:20] What can be more nuanced and local than a heat action plan of a society

[01:16:26] Or the heat action plan of a office building or of a school

[01:16:30] Yeah and in those cases like the stakeholders are directly involved also

[01:16:34] So it will be a lot more effective that way

[01:16:37] Nice that would be pretty interesting

[01:16:40] Because I would be totally down to making a heat action plan for our office

[01:16:46] And our office building was a very good recipe

[01:16:49] It will be nice

[01:16:50] Yeah I think the first step is to just get heat action plans in people's consciousness

[01:16:55] Just the idea of it and that this is something that you can do can think along the lines of

[01:17:01] And then from there people can take it in whichever capacity that they can really

[01:17:08] Yeah again drawing a parallel to COVID when COVID happened

[01:17:11] A lot of the apartment houses, a lot of the schools, a lot of the offices had their own COVID guidelines

[01:17:18] Which was based on the bigger ICMR guidelines and all of that

[01:17:24] But still they were tweaked and adapted in their own ways

[01:17:28] And this also reminds me of a previous big story episode that we did about the education system

[01:17:33] Even there are experts talked about how there is a need to give a lot of autonomy to the local bodies

[01:17:41] And let them decide the exact approach in which education system should be followed

[01:17:47] So just because a body, a state level body has decided that you have to put it in a lesson

[01:17:53] It doesn't mean that every school has to abide by that

[01:17:56] Because some schools, some chapter will get done easier because the kind of children that are there

[01:18:02] The kind of demographic is there, it's different so

[01:18:04] A lot of these issues I think are while they are specific to their fields, health, education etc

[01:18:10] Similar approaches can help

[01:18:12] Yeah

[01:18:13] The solution that comes from approach is similar

[01:18:17] Empower the local bodies and have them support them

[01:18:22] Again, another thing that we always talk about is fund them enough

[01:18:26] Which was also a point that the third is then

[01:18:29] Then have them deal with the situation at a very local level

[01:18:34] So I think that if there can be one take away from this episode

[01:18:37] I think it should be that right

[01:18:38] One as you mentioned getting heat action plan in all of our vocabularies

[01:18:42] And start thinking about them in a more policy level

[01:18:47] And the other one could be just act local

[01:18:50] And just be more conscious

[01:18:52] Like he said, be more conscious of your choices and how they impact

[01:18:58] And I would even go as far as to say choices not just in terms of

[01:19:01] Your choices when it comes to climate

[01:19:04] I would even say your everyday choices when it comes to your politics

[01:19:08] So the kind of leaders that you are choosing are they climate conscious

[01:19:13] Are they like I would definitely want to in the next election

[01:19:18] Issues see some candidate who is going to be like I will work on climate change

[01:19:22] No, it's not going to happen

[01:19:23] No, a lot of wishful thinking

[01:19:25] But yeah, a lot of us have got this knowledge here

[01:19:29] If we get this knowledge then it will be fun

[01:19:31] Nice, interesting

[01:19:32] And tell us what other stories are you working on

[01:19:35] What can we see more from the quint 15?

[01:19:38] Well fit keeps doing a lot of stories on health, mental health, health policy

[01:19:44] We do also videos and podcasts similarly

[01:19:48] Yeah just keep an eye out for fit

[01:19:51] And I'm sure you will see a lot more heat wave, heat related stories as well

[01:19:56] So climate climate change

[01:19:58] Oh 100 percent

[01:19:59] It's not like this problem is getting solved anytime soon

[01:20:04] And yes, we shall be in the front reporting as much as we can

[01:20:09] Making all of these conversations like heat waves

[01:20:12] And we earlier had an episode about microplastics on the big story

[01:20:16] So getting all of these issues which I would say are very niche

[01:20:20] Like heat waves or a microplac

[01:20:22] I'm bringing in experts people that can really kind of talk about this

[01:20:27] Experts like Anushka

[01:20:29] Yeah, okay

[01:20:33] I have flattered you enough

[01:20:35] Thank you so much for having me, this was a lot of fun

[01:20:38] I love this format and I had a lot of fun

[01:20:41] And also very informative

[01:20:42] But I have to go and turn on my fan now or I will die

[01:20:46] Yes

[01:20:47] Okay thanks a lot for being with us

[01:20:51] Thanks a lot to Aditya again for having this amazing chat with us

[01:20:55] And thanks a lot to you guys, our listeners

[01:20:58] And let us know in the comments if you want to see and hear Anushka more

[01:21:03] In the future episodes because she really likes this podcast

[01:21:07] Please say only good things

[01:21:09] Yes

[01:21:10] And yes, this was Pratik

[01:21:13] This is Anushka

[01:21:14] And we will see you in the next episode

[01:21:17] Well, you will probably see Anjali in the next episodes

[01:21:20] Who knows

[01:21:22] Bye

[01:21:23] Okay, bye

[01:21:25] The big story is a Quinto original podcast executive produced by Shelley Valya and Ritukapur

[01:21:30] This episode was hosted by Pratik Lidhu and Anushka Rajesh

[01:21:33] Produced and edited by Pratik Lidhu

[01:21:36] And the theme music is from BMG

[01:21:38] Special thanks to our guest Mr. Ditipilai

[01:21:46] You were listening to the Quins podcast