Application form process, compliance and the recruiter and much more

[00:00:00] Welcome to the talent Rebelcast, chats with smart people.

[00:00:08] My name is Elaine Bailey and I'm here with my co-host Tracy Parsons.

[00:00:12] In this series you're going to be hearing some big thinkers in the talent space who

[00:00:16] we've invited just to come in and have a chat.

[00:00:19] Unlike anything else you've heard before, we are not prescripted.

[00:00:23] We don't have a plan for where this conversation is going and it's going to be a wild

[00:00:27] ride.

[00:00:28] Talk to you guys.

[00:00:29] Let's get started.

[00:00:30] Good morning everybody.

[00:00:41] Welcome to chats with smart people with Tracy Parsons and myself here on the talent Rebel

[00:00:48] Alliance, Rebelcast.

[00:00:50] We have one of my absolute favorite people with us today and I'm so glad that she was flexible

[00:00:56] enough and willing to come and join us because you can be a great conversation.

[00:00:59] Thank you very much.

[00:01:00] Please welcome, Morgan.

[00:01:01] How are you today, Morgan?

[00:01:03] I'm great how you're doing.

[00:01:05] So glad to have you here.

[00:01:07] I have a little story to tell you guys about Morgan and how I first met her.

[00:01:12] I'm sure I probably met you before but I'll tell you the biggest memory I have of

[00:01:17] meeting you.

[00:01:18] We were at a conference in Florida someplace.

[00:01:22] There was some conference in Florida.

[00:01:23] I can't remember where Palm Springs or some someplace.

[00:01:27] Nobody ever left the hotel.

[00:01:28] It was like one of those sort of Florida things and I had gone downstairs.

[00:01:32] I was getting ready.

[00:01:33] I had a presentation that afternoon and I was not at all prepared for it as usual or at

[00:01:39] least what I wanted to say, I decided at some point I wanted to rip it up and start over again

[00:01:43] and so that's always the consequence of what happens if I don't go early in the morning.

[00:01:47] I spent too much time thinking.

[00:01:48] So I went down to the outdoor pool bar because I find that's the best way to learn.

[00:01:54] I remember this.

[00:01:55] I was having myself a nice supportive beverage to prepare my afternoon presentation and

[00:02:02] I'm noticing next week of the year and we just started chatting and talking about what

[00:02:08] it was like in today in that in the market at the time.

[00:02:11] What it was like to be a woman in this space, right?

[00:02:15] And to be able to find your own place and I was really impressed with her.

[00:02:19] She talked about starting her own company and the work she had been doing.

[00:02:24] In the video space at that time video is pretty fresh.

[00:02:28] I mean, there were not a lot of people kind of hawking video out there and talking about

[00:02:32] video components and just completely impressed by Wayne had the fabulous conversation with

[00:02:37] her and I think the best part about the conversation for me is that the very

[00:02:41] end of it.

[00:02:42] She's like, well, you know, luckily you're almost done because of course I was having

[00:02:46] more than one.

[00:02:47] I told Beverly, I was like, oh no, I'm getting ready to go on stage.

[00:02:49] I'll see you in a little bit.

[00:02:50] I'm going to be the most people over in phase.

[00:02:53] And I think she was kind of like, okay, I remember going, okay, wow.

[00:02:57] There she goes.

[00:02:58] But it was a great presentation and I had a good time and it was fabulous.

[00:03:02] Yes, I know I walked in and thought, okay, let's and it was great.

[00:03:06] So I remember that I remember it well and I said, and nobody's still

[00:03:10] hawking video.

[00:03:11] We had video components here today started.

[00:03:17] I was seeing you're so good at that.

[00:03:19] See, that's not it's I'm that.

[00:03:21] Crazy even more for a long time as well.

[00:03:23] So I did remember our first conversation.

[00:03:27] I want to say it was at SRSC.

[00:03:29] No, no, you have been a long proponent of video and I watched you when you were

[00:03:35] smashed fly and thought, this woman really knows her stuff.

[00:03:38] I really want to meet this woman and I managed to get a call with you.

[00:03:42] And we started talking about video.

[00:03:44] We were like building on each other and reinforcing each other.

[00:03:47] Then I think you went down the path of either it was professionally shot video or scripting people,

[00:03:54] which I vehemently disagreed with.

[00:03:56] And then we just battled for like that just 20 minutes.

[00:03:59] And I thought there goes that relationship.

[00:04:01] And we just kept recycling and you know obviously became great friends.

[00:04:09] But I distinctly remember that going, oh man, I really wanted to meet this woman.

[00:04:13] And that's just couldn't keep my mouth shut and I just argued with her and stop for half an hour.

[00:04:19] So I wasn't in that conversation but I can tell you nine chances out of tenory.

[00:04:26] Tracy was the antagonist in that conversation.

[00:04:29] Well, I think the bait.

[00:04:31] I mean, if you know, you know, that's all I'm going to say what I do remember that conversation.

[00:04:37] And I remember hanging up going, well, I have a lot to think about.

[00:04:41] And so one of the things that I yeah, I fight with it.

[00:04:44] I can't tell you the number of times that I've fought with people about like the challenge my my status quo.

[00:04:50] That's one of the things that I've always loved about you and never did I think that that made us like ruin a relationship for me.

[00:04:58] It's about giving me something new to think about.

[00:05:00] And that's what I've always appreciated about you is that you have such a wonderful and candidate focused point of view.

[00:05:09] Like that you want to make things better and we're going to fight about things.

[00:05:14] I shoot, we've the number of times people I fought with on the conversations with smart people.

[00:05:18] I mean, every time it develops into Tracy push in somebody's buttons or somebody push in Tracy's buttons.

[00:05:23] And I get fired up and I have that distinct memory as well, but I also remember working very closely with you on some great projects and telling customers about if you guys start using this, you're making a mistake.

[00:05:35] So, and you don't want to make a mistake. I know you don't want to make a mistake. So do you should talk to morey.

[00:05:41] Always appreciate this.

[00:05:43] And I'll admit that I get really frustrated when people don't do the simple things well.

[00:05:49] It's the one that I would start to reference this before people are really struggling right now to hire there's struggling on lots of different things.

[00:05:57] It just unmases me to watch kind of the quick easy fixes that they could do and interest should do and I'll put the judgment there should do.

[00:06:07] I was listening to Christian form in the other day, but it's a year of outcast.

[00:06:11] And he was being interviewed and he said to someone, you know, if you want to increase your application right just cut the time of your application from 15 minutes to five.

[00:06:21] And you know, it will have this result and it was like, let's put you need to do.

[00:06:24] And I see these people who are looking, oh, AI is going to solve this or there's shiny objects going to solve things and they're running around looking for some magic cure.

[00:06:32] Well, they still have three month long, you know, interview processes and 20 minute long applications that ask three times for the same information try to stifle myself.

[00:06:46] And then I think that's a lot of things that I think that's going to go over heaven, saints, you know, like get the barriers out of the way.

[00:06:52] And then when I get really renting, you know, and people say, oh well, you know, compliance requires us to do this or the hiring managers won't do this.

[00:07:00] And I want to say no wonder each other has never seen at the table.

[00:07:03] All right, we're on the same note.

[00:07:05] Yeah, we're pointing fingers.

[00:07:07] We over complicate everything.

[00:07:10] Right.

[00:07:11] I mean, I do.

[00:07:12] I think that human nature is to over complicate things because I think in some way we feel like the more complicated something is the better it is, right?

[00:07:21] Like you like somehow we are proud of ourselves for having marched over the fields and across the mountains and through the valleys and look what we have accomplished, which is the end of the day you're right.

[00:07:30] If we would just do some of the easy simple things, we probably wouldn't have the biggest challenges that we're trying to resolve in the first place.

[00:07:38] Well, two things.

[00:07:39] So I did not hear Christians interview and I did complete with the team at in flight.

[00:07:45] So if you haven't gone to in flight site to download the state of the playflow study, the average application time for the fortune 500 right now is five minutes.

[00:07:57] So it's shorter than it's ever been for shocked me like we're matching the numbers.

[00:08:01] I was like, yeah, how loud of here that can't be right.

[00:08:04] It's also over a hundred clicks.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] So the click per second so it's all these garbage clicks right, so congratulations on shortening your thing, but you're also training them to ignore you.

[00:08:17] So wait a go right.

[00:08:19] So again to your point morey.

[00:08:21] They've just they've they're trying to do the they're not willing to do the simple things.

[00:08:27] What information do you need from a human to move this forward?

[00:08:32] Well, what are that?

[00:08:33] Yeah, what are essential and we've all got this idea maybe from the days when people thought paper applications and those become became you know, sort of records is what do you need as a first screen versus what do you need for second and third.

[00:08:47] This idea that you could only collect information once yes there may be things you need to know before you can hire but it doesn't have to be let's get it all up front because we need to know what high school they went to today.

[00:09:00] And the idea that you could do this in phases is something that company I don't often admire but GE years ago started to break it down.

[00:09:10] Imagine me giving a positive.

[00:09:15] Well, I know I'm like I didn't know about this deep seated and hanging.

[00:09:20] But I'm I'm going to I'm taking that and I'm here for it.

[00:09:23] I can't get an advisor who's a former G so I have probably to think myself on that whole but they did some very smart sophisticated people who sort of looked at okay.

[00:09:31] What is it we really need in order to get you know kind of a do a short list of people we want to talk to and then there may be more information we need after that.

[00:09:39] But how much are we really using to evaluate who we're going to talk to as a first run screen.

[00:09:45] And then we don't point before we ever add the money to employ yes we need you know these other things but we don't need to know it before they ever start and then people seem to walk away from that.

[00:09:53] You know what's interesting and I can and I'm kind of play off of this is is trying to build a system now that does this from scratch working at a smaller company now kind of where there was no infrastructure in place and looking to put in place.

[00:10:07] And I'm a big advocate of using technology support us wherever we can because we're not going to have you know we're not going to have a team with 50 people in the back and there's going to be like three people and.

[00:10:16] You know we have to robots do with the robots do well that's right but the challenge here is is it the robots have been built based on our.

[00:10:24] And this perception of what is what we have to do in terms of our process so for me to find a robot that is an ATS system that can have a complex application that can collect all of this data is very simple.

[00:10:38] For me to find something that actually will gather that data when I actually need it which is right before the higher or the offer or during it was like entering that onboarding phase is very, very hard.

[00:10:50] I can't find like that sort of tool that does it and I think that speaks to this idea that we'd like to we've pushed all the stuff up to the front off of our misperception of that for we need to collect all the information and data on.

[00:11:02] And we've now pigeonhole people into their ability to how to collect and manage it they have to think outside of what their system tells them to break it make it work right both are leading into something that I find incredibly fascinating.

[00:11:17] It's two things it's not just the timing and cadence in which we collect information but it's also the fact that we really historically for the last 30 years have basically taken everything we've ever done and just put it on the internet.

[00:11:32] We have a newspaper ad we put it on the internet we have an application that's paper we put it on the internet nobody at any point in this digital transformation right which is my favorite buzzword these days has thought.

[00:11:44] Great is this really what we need and nobody stopped to revisit the collection of data when we collect data what data we collect and we're changing our requirements in our skills are so furiously under.

[00:11:58] And we're not going and going yeah this is done like why do we keep doing this so the dumb way but instead we keep going and buying.

[00:12:09] Band-aids for tax that says okay well this needs this and this needs this instead of really like what do we need this to do in the best example of that is we had help wanted ads in the newspaper monster.

[00:12:22] And put on the internet right that was my first job in this industry that was literally my first job in the industry was going to customers and saying hey this newspaper ad that you just are ready getting ready to run in the temperature again you can put it on monster.

[00:12:36] Common and be so much cheaper that was my whole job and so people we went from three lines in the newspaper to a while there's no word count anymore how much more text can we throw in there and never stop to think about.

[00:12:49] How do we market a job to a potential cannabis you know we went from the and financial constraints of being it having to do these little tiny newspaper ads.

[00:12:59] But we've never loved past it we're still throwing job descriptions out there and because compliance and leave I mean a job description is a legal document right it's it's supposed to be.

[00:13:10] The piece that you use to evaluate mother and I ultimately you hire a fire someone it never was intended to be a marketing document.

[00:13:18] You know I keep saying it's like advertising jobs is the same thing as a car company trying to advertise their cars with the owner's manual.

[00:13:25] Hey, here's 170 pages on how to drive the sub you know it's like that's not what they do but we do it may jar and don't think about it twice.

[00:13:34] That's exactly what it is advertising a car with the owners manual exactly.

[00:13:42] So I'm in a little bit of trouble now because I'm hiring some people to come work with us.

[00:13:47] I didn't get them out of it this is illegal to document so I might be in a little bit of trouble.

[00:13:53] On the bright side my compliance department is exactly zero people so that that is one of you.

[00:13:59] Okay, yeah, but it's so this I do want to go back to one thing and we I think we've mentioned compliance three times can we all just agree that compliance is the greatest excuse HR has ever had to not do something right okay wait a minute.

[00:14:16] I'm going to play devil's advocate for seconds please.

[00:14:19] Okay, and and I know everybody who knows me from my previous lives can be like what is going to talk to me.

[00:14:26] You have a class.

[00:14:27] I've been thinking about compliance okay so as I have now moved into a new role right as the head of talent that you people officer for a growing company with only a few people at the top of it right so it's not a big corporate.

[00:14:44] I have a lot of layers right now I'll.

[00:14:47] It has become clear to me that there are some elements of compliance which if not done correctly are going to fall on my head like people are going to come and actually come after like the IRS can like suit my butt.

[00:15:04] I have become newly concerned about some layers of compliance I'm going to say I feel badly now for how harshly I spoke to my compliance friends in the past.

[00:15:15] I think if I have found myself being the person in the room you I can't even believe this in the room is like yeah, I don't think we can do that.

[00:15:23] That's not legally compliant and feeling somewhat bad about it as I say it right so I kind of get that I think yes we use compliance often as a way to say no to things right rather than look at things and say what is the rule actually.

[00:15:41] And what is it's intent and then what can I go and do around it right and I think that that's a level of critical thinking that's required but I think what happens is what have happened was I think what happens is people get into this role.

[00:15:57] Get a little anxious because there's all this regulation and reporting and fear that you're going to do something wrong that you just get so afraid to look outside the box or what's been done before because you don't.

[00:16:12] You just don't want to be that person who's held responsible and I think we all have to challenge ourselves to get out of it.

[00:16:18] I am changing my perception that compliance is intending to be the roadblock which I've really did.

[00:16:25] You're not going to be the water of fun and quality and have just become I think there's a bunch of people who are really really afraid and we have to learn how to help them break their fear.

[00:16:38] We're three women right so right you're not going to find any one of us who are going to disagree with the intent of a lot of these walls but laws which is to make a level playing field right.

[00:16:48] We want these things here but you also understand in large corporations the kinds of folks who hire interconnects are risk versus individuals that's right.

[00:16:56] That's a required criteria for these folks so where you find them middle ground yes you better look at the intent of the law I didn't want people to throw say ah that hack with all this legal nonsense I'm going to do what I want no there's a reason for this stuff and generally the reason is good stuff you know it's the intent of most of it is to create a level playing field that the.

[00:17:17] And it's hard to not strongly yourself.

[00:17:19] I actually think you just hit on something as critically important here is that we often hire the people who we asked us support us and help us understand what we can and can do from a compliance pick up we purposely don't hire.

[00:17:31] Problem solvers in that space and that's exactly who we need we need critical thinking problem solvers.

[00:17:37] I think I may I may have misstated by very much value compliance.

[00:17:41] I think it's incredibly important within the organization where I get frustrated is them being used as a scapegoat.

[00:17:49] Right for not taking care of the candidates so where I get frustrated is when people just throw up their arms at innovation and just say.

[00:17:59] Compliance because they don't want to do it or they don't want to think about it and they just use this as a convenient scapegoat.

[00:18:04] If you're not doing something innovative or interesting.

[00:18:07] At the same time I will say 100% I do want my compliance people to be risk adverse because.

[00:18:16] The people that we are collectively working with in this podcast.

[00:18:21] It's a balloon tether situation.

[00:18:24] We are all balloons that are floating in the universe saying look at all these wonderful things that we could be doing if we could just do these things somebody needs to keep us.

[00:18:33] We need to keep us tethered to reality and I need my compliance people to be the tether to the reality of this is either legally risky.

[00:18:42] This is absolutely damaging to somebody that you're not thinking of.

[00:18:46] I need them I need tethers and I want them to be risk adverse but I what I don't want are our leaders using them as an excuse not to.

[00:18:57] And and I think you're going to find in a smaller company now that even like illegal department is much more advisory that's going to say.

[00:19:07] If you do this here the risks and your management team is going to decide yes I'll take that risk not.

[00:19:13] I think when you get into big companies it's no longer advisory they're given absolute veto power and so it doesn't become crazy as you're saying hey if you do this.

[00:19:23] And it's an unintended consequence it's no you can't do it and that's where you get into trouble because everything you do in business has risk right.

[00:19:31] And yes you know in a small organization you've got enough senior people who would say okay we understand there's risk they were you know we're prepared to take that yes we could get sued you can get sued for anything and at some point you just get used to that.

[00:19:43] And I can't name this person because they're probably I don't necessarily their relationships but someone that we all know and respect very well.

[00:19:51] One set of their compliance person I just have to wait for her to die.

[00:19:56] Okay he tried everything to get around in two things that he knew perfectly well needed to be done and he'd gone up the chain of command to go look this is in unreasonable constraint it's hurting us as a company it's hurting our ability to hire.

[00:20:11] And this compliance person had sway he was of force to be reckoned with so you know if you finally just sort of the sand and said.

[00:20:18] I just go away for the go away.

[00:20:20] And he finally let the organization surprise the wise someone that you know is really good so yeah that there's sometimes you want senior management to look around the go.

[00:20:30] Do we have legal and compliance and an advisory role or have we really empowered them to just shut down things that other learned experienced professionals tell us we need to do to move the business forward.

[00:20:43] And let's understand what the consequences are unfortunately doesn't happen.

[00:20:46] So you find in today's market kind of as things if you know is we're in this like space where everybody's on one hand realizing that they've got to do something.

[00:20:57] The the market has changed on them so dramatically they're they're panicking around that but in conjunction with that are also afraid of doing anything because we don't know what tomorrow is going to be are you finding that a new challenge to to market to or to and to work with companies on it where are you seeing a difference.

[00:21:14] Yes, I tend to focus on the positive so the thing that that I'm seeing happen that I really like is.

[00:21:21] You know there but all these constraints hiring manager wanted this hiring judge can't do this we can't do this we can't do that because there's such a struggle to hire right now.

[00:21:30] But there are some day leaders that are feeling bold and to stand up and say look do you want the higher or don't you know in my world obviously it's video it's like can you get a hiring manager to make a quick video.

[00:21:41] And it's training around a hiring manager going look here's your job description I'm not market a hell out of this you know and I'll do the best I can do but.

[00:21:48] It doesn't differentiate us nobody reads it and if you really need a body in that seat I really can't help you with this if you really want me to get somebody's attention I need to 20 second video clip.

[00:21:58] You're called but tell me how badly you need this hire and because things are so.

[00:22:04] Dyer in terms of actually finding people and getting them to move and getting them to commit to a job all the said that's having some residents it's resonating with people.

[00:22:12] But obviously we've got good friends in this industry and they're working incredibly hard and they're suffering in their strengths and all of that you know and completely overwhelmed and you never want to see that.

[00:22:20] Sometimes when it does get that tight it becomes in either or it's not well next week I'll see if a good candidate applies you know it's right now you've had the job open for six weeks you got nobody.

[00:22:31] You know something has to change here whether it's our application or the way we're marketing it or how long we're putting through an interview process with a number of interviews.

[00:22:40] We really are getting down to do one or two you know I get your hire but here's the only way I'm going to do it so that's helping it unfortunately comes with a lot of stress for the poor people in the middle.

[00:22:52] But you know I think hiring managers are getting over this well here's what I want here's what I need you seeing you know for tech roles people are backing away from needing a college degree.

[00:23:04] That was on the herd of 10 years ago. Oh my god they got to go to college. I'm so we've got to have that and now it's like oh no, they just need to know how to code.

[00:23:13] Exactly. Oh I guess I don't really need that. I know I had a so funny I had a conversation with a hiring manager who is looking to put up a new post just just this week.

[00:23:24] Yes, the role is an extremely important role for the organization there's a lot of work to do with it, etc. But it's what you what they really needed was somebody who had some experience in the particular industry and was innovative and was ready to hit the ground running and often going.

[00:23:40] They put on the thing and the original piece because this is how they were taught to write job description and really that's how they just find it's me. This is how I was taught to write it that the person needed an MBA.

[00:23:51] He knows a specialty plus X number of years and I was like, do they really like do you even have that? Who has that?

[00:23:59] Because if they really need it, I'll absolutely you know go and try and find this person right but I don't would you even know do you ever even ask because anybody ever looked and they were like, oh no I just thought that was something you had to do if you were going to hire somebody at this level they had the AVX.

[00:24:15] It's like I don't know. But when I got away you may have that before I started spark start I ran a consulting from the device and campus recruiting programs everybody's got you know got to have this GPA they absolutely got to have you know these ghost fan things.

[00:24:29] And I went through and I ran that from from more than 20 years and asked do you ever ask for transcript like, no.

[00:24:37] It's like if you don't even know if they've taken these courses you don't know what the great thing is it's how important is this stuff if you don't ever really look at it.

[00:24:46] They wanted their GPA cut off but they never saw where someone excelled or where they didn't or never even look at which specific courses they took which made the whole thing a little suspect that this was absolutely required.

[00:24:57] This kind of assuming that it was all there so yeah yeah that crazy thing these requirements and then it's like okay I can get you that person but it what you know but here's the price tag that person.

[00:25:07] And it's it's an interesting it's a really interesting shift I've seen over the last six to 18 months of TA leaders feeling empowered again.

[00:25:19] We've gone from filling racks to being advisors right and being because we know the thing that we know there are things that we know that our higher managers do not know and they're not supposed to know because that's not their job.

[00:25:33] This is the first time I've watched as HR leaders and TA leaders have sat down with their their peers and their leaderships and their hiring managers to say hey the way we've always done it is not a sustainable model you're seeing it right now where we've decided to put our locations is not a sustainable model you're seeing it right now.

[00:25:56] We are the messaging that we are putting forward is not working we're not retaining our talent here are three things that you could do that are little and simple and easy.

[00:26:06] And it's your choice to do them I can implement these for you, Mr. you know peers and leaders and hiring managers but I'm seeing more of our TA and HR leaders rise like they're they're stepping up and feeling empowered to say.

[00:26:21] Yeah, of course it's not working. Do you know how we've been cobbling this together in the past for you for years.

[00:26:27] It's time to kind of listen to us finally because we've been saying this and now the chickens have come to roost you're seeing that we don't have any talent because there is none but they've made some choices.

[00:26:40] You know I wonder is it that the TA leaders are feeling empowered to step up or is it that senior management team is turning to TA and saying solve this because for the first time.

[00:26:51] We're hurting the lack of talent is hurting business results, I mean we've all been stores that have said you know close because we can't staff it we're seeing a plans we're seeing things that can't get delivered.

[00:27:01] The the real constraint to growth and or even sustainability right now is there are no bodies there so you know all of a sudden it's your there's a real dollar about a touch to not having.

[00:27:16] The candidates and the hires so I think I mean that's what's coming to be really scared.

[00:27:22] Sorry, yeah, I think some of the TA leaders you know have been a little surprised that they never met the chairman.

[00:27:27] But all of a sudden there being someone to the chairman's office to say hey you know we've got three plants that understand we've got.

[00:27:35] Just today's New York Times you like your is 2000 guards short every single day you can't run.

[00:27:42] Any organization we've got that big a percentage of people that don't show it for work so it's all the way through our system it's government it's corporations it's you know everything it's hospitals God forbid.

[00:27:54] You know you just got to have people in those roles and when you don't the wheels come off the bus and and that's what's going on so.

[00:28:01] Yeah, if a tea later wasn't ready to be in the hot seat.

[00:28:05] They've not choice that's where they are today.

[00:28:07] We're talking about hospitals we had a I got a message this week from somebody that's really interested in getting work drive installed at their company and they're like sorry we have to.

[00:28:18] We have to hit the post button on this because their healthcare system like everything everything has stopped other than patient care right so like.

[00:28:26] This is and I have another customer who is 100% behind on their deliveries because they can't get enough people into their factories to work on their products and this is literally everything like.

[00:28:39] Number of people who I hear talking in my university you know what this thing is on backward and I don't know why it's not coming in and this is not coming in.

[00:28:47] Why is this taking so long and where am I cucumbers and all of the ship that people are like losing their minds over it and I just look at them I was like.

[00:28:55] I just think you need to know the supply chains really thought that right now.

[00:28:59] They don't understand because it's starting to hit bottom lines it's starting to hit households it's starting to make everybody realize oh wait we needed people doing seven dollar an hour jobs to make our lives work exactly exactly.

[00:29:14] I don't want to do those anymore and now.

[00:29:16] Oh yeah.

[00:29:17] And we don't have the infrastructure and to be able to replace that in any way.

[00:29:28] We do we open the border I mean you want to sure.

[00:29:33] Yeah, exactly exactly.

[00:29:36] Yeah.

[00:29:37] One of those times where you know, the necessity all of a sudden makes things that were impossible yesterday all of a sudden possible maybe we read all this problem where we you know I don't know reallocate pay structures up and down the board.

[00:29:49] All of a sudden we're making a color table right I think you're open the border is it make it easier for somebody to be able to hire somebody for wherever they are wherever they need to be at to get it done right.

[00:30:03] And we're making a lot of things that are really hard to do so we could look the taxes and you know.

[00:30:07] I'm so really sure great yeah.

[00:30:09] It is and I like it's so fun to do our job at the same time it's so overwhelming like it's you know that it never has it been I feel more fascinating to work in this industry like I just never felt like the number of people who now understand what we do.

[00:30:28] Is really fun like people are saying oh like you can help with it.

[00:30:32] Yeah actually I see my tears.

[00:30:34] Can I jump on a tangent on that one of one of my big.

[00:30:39] Oh, that piece of life is it absolutely amazes me how little the average professional particularly or even average American understands about what happens on the other side of the desk with recruiting.

[00:30:54] You know I've hired three new people in the last three months we're growing like crazy I walk them through this whole you know here's an overview industry here's all the different kinds of recruiting so forth.

[00:31:03] And they just dumbfounded because they've been applying unlike like they have that's narrow view.

[00:31:08] And I thought I was sitting in a group once with with Duke alum I'm an unalarm it was for hiring and one gentleman who is a very senior guy at Mastercard said you know well if I ever get on a phone call and I hear that somebody's a recruiter.

[00:31:22] I hang up right away because they're just going to add their feet of my salary and price me out of the market.

[00:31:27] Oh my god here's a man it is 50s who doesn't understand the difference from a head hunter from an in hospital for my contingency age and as an industry as a profession we've done.

[00:31:37] I've got awful job having people understand how recruiting works.

[00:31:43] You know even very smart very professional people who moved out a couple of times they have no idea what's going on inside of the desk.

[00:31:50] They really don't and it it it amazes me I think it's one of the few times where people really don't understand and it's so important to their lives that they understand.

[00:32:00] How you get into a new job and who the players are and now those things work it amazes me they know so little.

[00:32:06] Well in it's fascinating the volume of bad advice that exists on the web like.

[00:32:11] Like I was really funny everybody knows that I just love TikTok and they a number of TikToks I see of people like you know the technology is eating your resume I'm like nobody's eating your resume.

[00:32:22] Right like so it's a stop we do have a bit of a peer problem.

[00:32:27] We do we do we do we do yeah well and I think it's because we again we spend so much time on the transaction of the work right we're just we're not articulating what it takes to be able.

[00:32:42] To go through the to actually find somebody and to be able to decipher between person A and person B and understand who they are and and understand what drives them you know we just aren't there and we think and then it's.

[00:32:55] And we think and it goes back to begin this conversation when we think the answer to that is to collect more information that's irrelevant.

[00:33:02] We're able to find out who people are and what drives them and take it from there.

[00:33:06] Awesome and at some stage we're going to need to separate experience from knowledge from skills from aptitudes and as recruiters we don't do any of that we lump them all into this qualifications.

[00:33:20] Which really hurts us we have such even as a profession we don't get into conversations about what those differences are you know it's one thing to understand how to how to tie a sailing not intellectually you can understand whatever BB ever see you look through kind of thing.

[00:33:37] It's a different thing to put a rope with your hand and actually watch somebody tie it we don't ever you know we can't differentiate between those things that there are aptitudes there people who can sing on key I'm not one of them.

[00:33:50] I could have a masters in music theory I could not sing happy birthday anything you guys would excuse me to I just don't have it but you know we try to assess talent and we're such children if this we just have such limited knowledge about the things that go into capabilities and confidence and so forth.

[00:34:11] That's a whole another conversation.

[00:34:13] I think it's a whole conversation what I want to do deeply because at some point I think this whole conversation around how we assess talent how we look at talent how we help pull out those those elements and understand what they are.

[00:34:27] In a systematic way right which is part of the challenge right how do you do that in a systematic way is really an important place for us to get going and then having conversations around the talent space because soon the questions not going to be how do you find me a person.

[00:34:42] Eventually in very soon is going to turn to how do I know if this person's any good and I don't think we're ready for that part of the conversation at I don't think we're ready there but any good at watch that what exactly.

[00:34:54] Do you do what and that's and we've talked about this tracing now I think the challenges companies are trying to say well I need them to do this but I don't know what I'm going to need them to do a month from now six months from now or 18 months and more now so how do I find somebody that's relevant that can grow with me.

[00:35:12] Where I don't know where I'm going yet when I don't even know how to assess for today and I love the fact that companies think that they have an absolutely unique competency model.

[00:35:21] You know we're really looking for something very specific here and years ago when I ran a consulting firm one client hired me to get the competency models from like 15 other major corporations and every single one of them were an electrical skills interpersonal skills.

[00:35:38] All those solving skills results orientation of the 12 companies 10 with the same across every single company and they were convinced that they were absolutely unique.

[00:35:48] For a unique unique individuals all the Zannebar for something yeah we all think we're unique and special we need something unique and special.

[00:35:56] I love this conversation. I definitely would like a continuation around experience skills knowledge and apt to because that was absolutely everything that I want to talk about in the future right like that is that is how we start really understanding.

[00:36:12] I don't know who people are and where we can where we can take them from an experiential and career standpoint so I am here for that conversation please let's schedule some more time with you to talk about that.

[00:36:22] I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Oh, and thank you so much today and I just this is great.

[00:36:30] I love these conversations. I know they're fabulous. Thank you more for counting.

[00:36:34] Thank you.

[00:36:35] Thank you.

[00:36:36] I'd love it. I'll do it. You know, we'll do this on air off air. You can't I'm any place. So I'm here going to be an HR tech this year. Yeah. Yes. We are exhibiting HR tech so Spark start in the team will be there excellent and Tracy work rise going to be there.

[00:36:51] I'm not going to be there. I'm not thinking about it yet.

[00:37:03] I'm going to be there.

[00:37:13] Please stop by and say hello. We love to hear from you in the meantime where can people reach out to you.

[00:37:19] I'm going to be there.

[00:37:29] Thank you.

[00:37:33] Thank you.

[00:37:48] Thank you for listening and we hope you enjoy yourself. The talent rebel cast is part of the talent rebel alliance.

[00:37:55] It's a movement connecting strong independent bossy and well-summedized by the women in the talent industry.

[00:38:02] Together we're on a mission to grow our ideas, our presence, our value and our impact smart women connecting with smart women to support each other.

[00:38:11] We believe that we believe things happen from simple ideas. If you want to join the talent rebel alliance, come on over and check out our website at talent rebel alliance.com.

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