Empowering Leadership: A Riveting Conversation with Avanti and Rashesh Shah

[00:00:00] The internal mantra that I use with kids also and in Edelweiss most of the time, not all the time, is keep your mouth shut. For me, contributing to regular people's lives was just very important. I've always found that culture is only two things, walk and talk. The older I get, the more I see my parents are not heroes, they're just like me.

[00:00:32] Hello and welcome to Stree At The Table, where you are joining us on a series of conversations with some exceptional women and exceptional men who have walked the talk on showing what inclusive leading with people looks like. We look at women leaders who have overcome and come to a position of leadership, but what about their journeys? What about the role that male allies play in that journey?

[00:00:55] Today we have with us Avanti Shah, a young woman, a Yale student of public health who branched out from studying computer science and also happens to be the child of Vidya and Rashesh Shah, co-founders of the Edelweiss Group since 1995. Joining her, we have Rashesh with us, who actually does not need any introduction. He has demonstrated over decades very inclusive, very diverse and stellar leadership in redefining what the financial services business looks like.

[00:01:25] He is also Avanti's dad. So let us get into this conversation. So thank you both for joining us. This is a very, very important conversation and having you both here is an absolute delight. So welcome first. Thank you for having us. Thank you. I mean, I'm truly excited. I mean, I'm very excited because Avanti is here with me. Yeah. So it's a great opportunity. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:01:52] But Avanti, I'm going to start with you first and I'm going to actually begin with asking you about what you're doing right now. What have you studied? Where are you in life right now? So I can tell you my whole sort of background. I studied computer science six-ish years ago is when I started college and I went into software engineering after I graduated and realized it was not for me, even though I really liked the skills that I had gained. It was definitely not the structure that I saw myself working in long term.

[00:02:21] I think for me, contributing to regular people's lives was just very important. I also had a passion in public health, so I decided to sort of pursue that. And I'm currently doing my master's in public health at Yale. I'm studying social and behavioral sciences, which sort of which surrounds everything that you would think is non-health. So nutrition, housing, pollution, climate change, those kinds of things. And with Avanti, we have her father, Roshesh. Welcome, Roshesh.

[00:02:50] And I want to actually take this context and come to you. We see Roshesh today as this, you know, Indian leader globally representing us everywhere, very big in business. But I know when you started also, you were, I think what I read showed me that you were the rebel child. You did not join your father's business. In fact, you chose to go into academics. You chose to go into, you know, the workforce.

[00:03:16] And then you actually convinced your dad to mortgage the house so that you can start Adelwise. And so how does it feel to see, you know, your daughter choose her own path as a father? It's always exciting to see. And, you know, every time I hear conversations like this, like when she said, you know, computer engineering and she did well. And then interest is more in public health.

[00:03:40] I get amazed that, you know, how each one of us has to find our own passion, our own way. And it's actually very exciting. I also feel sometimes too old, too out of touch because I have become more and more conventional. But I think the world has changed. And I think what we thought were conventional career opportunities to be a leader. Yeah. I've actually expanded a lot more. So it's actually great to see Avanti, even our brother Neil, do their own stuff, find their own path.

[00:04:09] And I inherently believe and also remind myself all the time that I think everybody will force their own path. And you should allow that because that is the most exciting way of doing it. It's like, you know, anything new you learn when you learn it on your own. There is always an aha moment. If somebody gives it to you, spoon feeds to you, it is useful. But you don't have the aha moment.

[00:04:35] And I think very often we as, you know, parents also have to remind ourselves that, yeah, you can impart whatever knowledge you have to your kids. But you also have to allow them to discover their own future in that sense. But see, that's a very good answer. And I am parent of two boys myself. So yes, arriving at this place is a very nice feeling.

[00:04:58] But when it's really happening, when you know, you run a business and the child says, no, I'm not interested in it, or has chosen a path and then says, no, but I'm not interested in it again. At that time, is that do these words really come to you at that time? Or there's a there's a huge amount of anxiety that gets built up? What's happening? It's always there. I mean, to be a parent means to be anxious and you want the best outcomes for your kids and all.

[00:05:25] And in fact, it's very ironical because we know that some adversity, some stumbles, some, you know, challenges along the way, it does build character. But ironically, we as parents, we want our kids to avoid any stumbles, any adversity, any challenges. We want to make life smoother. Though in the heart of our heart, we know that it will not help build character. So you have to have this, you know, very nice balance between that.

[00:05:52] And I find that in Edelweiss also, as we have built leaders in Edelweiss, there is a it is the same challenge. And I think the internal mantra that I use with kids also and in Edelweiss, most of the time, not all the time is keep your mouth shut. So if the parents can learn to say, keep your mouth shut, not all the time, but most of the time, I think you are halfway there. But Avanti, it's it's hard being a teenager.

[00:06:20] It's hard growing up at in every era, I think. And now with so much attention, so much social media, it is even harder. Plus, you were you were raised in a family that had much public attention. So what you were doing was noted, was commented on your paths. Well, I mean, again, we all have peer pressure, but you had public peer pressure. How and did it ever bother you? And if it did, then how did you deal with it? I think when I was much younger, it definitely did bother me.

[00:06:48] I think once I came into myself and I think I sort of created my own value system that was obviously a lot of it was by my parents and a lot of it had to do with my upbringing. I think I became more confident in my own skin. I think the moments of my life where I had been very bothered by public attention, I had to remind myself of who we are as a family and and what we stand for. And I think that helped me get through those moments.

[00:07:15] Yeah. And if I probe further and say, who are you as a family? Because I know both your parents and I have a very high regard for them. But for you as a child, what was the most valuable thing that family gave you? I think the one value that I think binds us all together is empathy. I think as a family, that's that is really something that we stand for.

[00:07:35] And I think in all aspects of life, whether it's with each other, with people we don't know and in corporate spaces, I think respect and empathy is something that we really stand for and also towards each other. So that's that is so right. And within all this, whenever you've had to make a decision that you knew may not go down well or I'm sure you had your moments of I mean, all of us to of doing things, knowing that maybe it's not going to be received very well.

[00:08:05] Okay, how was that? How was that for you? How was that in the situation? I think it was definitely very challenging when I decided to switch parts. I was also worried about what my parents would think, what would other people think. But I think for me, the most important thing has been to be honest to myself and to other people, I think, to be honest about the fact that I didn't enjoy what I was doing and that I'm looking for something greater or looking for something different.

[00:08:31] And using my parents, I think, as a sounding board, especially my father, I think that really helped me to realize what I really want and to also emphasize that for myself, not focusing on even what they may be expect of me.

[00:08:45] Yeah, the Rajesh, we we keep hearing and we see a lot as well. Successful fathers are hard for children, even if they are really, really kind and nice and good family people having a legacy that you know, you're building, knowing that children will have to live up to some part of it, whether in their own heads or not in the in how we raise our children.

[00:09:09] There's a lot of consciousness that comes in. And right now I'm also speaking on behalf of many parents who are not maybe that much in the public eye, but children grow up aspiring to be, you know, like their father, like their mother till one day they break out. But that moment when they break out, okay, is not very easy for the parent also, because in some way you want the child to become their own person, but the child has grown outgrown us.

[00:09:38] What, what, what, what, how was it for you? Well, absolutely. And I think you want the kids to break out. I mean, you want them to have their own individual character, their own individual, you know, approach to life. If they are just, you know, copycat of, of, of yourself, it won't be as much fun and they will not have tried. So I think they should try a lot. Like earlier you said, you know, being a rebel and all, I think the best way to make sure kids don't have to rebel is have very few rules.

[00:10:07] So we have followed saying, have broad rules, which are about, you know, like when I was smoking is a very big thing for us. We just don't want our kids to, or didn't want our kids to smoke and, and stuff like that. Obviously, you know, things like drugs and all that. So there's some broad rules out there, but outside of that, ultimately, you know, if they are responsible, they have the right value system.

[00:10:31] And you know, the limitations, you can only police so much. You can only have so many rules and the more rules you have, the more rules are to be broken. So when you come from there that you discover your own path, you make your own rules, you know, most of the time, I think within the broad framework. But along with that also, I think allowing people like, like we were allowed and it's always good to remember what you were when you were young.

[00:11:00] So I have to also constantly remind myself, how was I when I was, you know, 24 years of age, I was actually much more clueless. And, you know, so I think you have to give that room for the unknown unknown that is there at that age and your future is still evolving and all. And the third thing, as you said, I think I remember when the first time, you know, we started getting media presence for Edelweiss and me and all.

[00:11:28] I remember one good advisor told me that always remember that the Rasesha in the papers is not the real Rasesha. So don't start believing everything that is there. And that is always a good thing because at the end of the day, we are all ordinary individuals. We might get business success here and there. Part of it is hard work. Part of it is luck. Part of it is the right time, right place. All of that is there.

[00:11:53] Idea is not to take it too seriously and start believing that you are something special. Yeah. And that is what I think we try to remember all the time that we are like anybody else. You are like any other individual. And if the kids can see their parents is not the CEO of Edelweiss or, you know, all of that. But you can see your father is just one more individual who has some strengths, some flaws.

[00:12:21] Maybe the flaws are getting fewer and fewer. But I think the idea is to see everybody as a human being with the good and bad. Yeah. And not look at success as the way of interpreting people or interpreting your relationship with people. Yeah. But to this point, you know, Avanti, there is a very famous song which is,

[00:12:48] The older I get, the more I see my parents are not heroes. They are just like me. And I also heard that the day children realize that their parents are also flawed is a very landmark day. Because that day the child has become an adult. But it's probably the most painful day because you've idolized parents. You've taken the best. And for a fair amount of time in our childhood, we believe they are flawless.

[00:13:18] And it's a very important realization because then, like we grew up. Would you mind sharing the moment you realized or what happened when you did? I don't think I can pinpoint it to a specific moment, but I do remember a period in my life. I think when I was around 18 or 19 years old, when I had that exact realization of they're not superheroes. They're not, you know, Marvel characters.

[00:13:44] They're regular people who just had children and they're also figuring things out by themselves. And in fact, I think after a few years that made me have more love and respect for them. I think when you see people as flawless, they can sometimes also be inaccessible. Or you can be afraid of what they think of you. Or you may sort of feel that they're projecting expectations on you. But I think once you see them as people who are very successful and have so many great, you know, qualities. And also some flaws.

[00:14:14] I think you actually have so much more admiration for them just as regular human beings. In fact, I remember the day very clearly. It was in 2014 in Paris where I was doing something stupid. I got hijacked and I was hungry and angry and all that. And suddenly Avanti walks up to me and effectively tells me, you are behaving in a stupid way. And she was only 14 years old.

[00:14:42] And first time I said, oh my God, this kid has become an adult now. Yeah. That, you know, she's also scolding me now. Yeah. And that is, I mean, as a joke, I always say, like our generation is called this sandwich generation, right? Because our parents scolded us. And now our kids are also scolding us. We never got a chance to scold anybody in that sense. I was going to come to you and ask, what was that like for you?

[00:15:07] Because it's not also as parents, it is a bit of a, that day is tough. And I know that like she said that there was no particular day, but as a parent, I actually remember the day when I realized that they realize. And it's not an easy day, even for a parent. It's actually not an easy day, but it's also actually a great day. And I have actually had that experience in Nadelwise very often because we have grown a lot of leaders.

[00:15:36] And until a certain point, they are very subdued and they are very deferential to you. And then they start finding their own voice. They're finding their own space. And that is when you realize that, you know, they have arrived. So it was at that moment that they are now individuals in their own right, truly not just an extension of you. Yeah. And I think it's a great moment in that sense.

[00:16:03] And at least in Nadelwise, one of the things I've loved, I mean, we've built businesses, we've done a host of other stuff, but the one that has been truly joy has been giving space to leaders and helping them come of age in their own way, in their own style. And we have all kinds of leaders in Nadelwise. We have introverted, extroverted. People are very analytical. People are very good in relationships. We are, you know, we, you know, we have people who learn very fast.

[00:16:30] We have people who experiment, who are experiential, are learning. All kinds of leaders are there and you constantly remind yourself that as they say, So that way, even your kids, like, you know, they are very different, but they are also in their own way. They are independent and they are individuals. Yeah. And the day you realize it and respect that is also, I think, I think a great day.

[00:16:59] No, you're making such a strong point and it comes to the next question I wanted to ask you. Edelwise has this tagline, which is ideas create, values protect, which I found one of the most stunning lines ever. It stays and it's timeless in its importance. But there is a, what you're describing is a very cultural thing that needs to be, which is giving people space to grow, to make mistakes, to find their own paths.

[00:17:27] And as a leader of an aggressive business in an aggressive economy, it's not always easy to execute. One. One. Second is it's not always also easy to have it culturally embedded in the organization because culture seeps in. How has it been for you as a leader of Edelwise as you lead men and women to become their, to come into their own? So again, I think realizing that there is a lot of, you know, potential people have if they find the opportunity.

[00:17:57] And India, we are very fortunate. I think there is a, the quality of people that we get. And especially in Edelwise, we've been even more fortunate. You get great quality of people. You give them the room, the space to go. And you also don't allow the disappointment. They are also failed experiments of leadership scale up and all that. But you don't allow them to make you disillusion or give up on that. You keep on experimenting.

[00:18:22] And I think scaling up leadership is the ultimate asymmetric payoff. So in all business, we like asymmetric payoff, right? Invest 100, it can become 1000. If it, if you lose, you lose only 100. So in business, we always say all investing you want is asymmetric payoff. Upside is, you know, 10, 20, 30, 40 times and downside. So when you take a call on a leader and, and, and give him or her opportunity to scale up.

[00:18:52] If she scales up, you have got, you know, 20, 30, 40 X return. If she doesn't scale up in a year, you will know. And you have lost a year. So you have gone, you have gained a leader for 20 years or you have lost one year. Or you have cut your losses. So it's an asymmetric payoff. And it is worth taking the risk. I think we don't like the examples that don't work out. And by the way, for every one example that has worked, there has been one example that has not worked. More than that.

[00:19:19] But I'm saying if you have asymmetric payoff, the one that worked should be worth 20 times the one that didn't work. So if you do a weighted average of that, you're actually much more better off taking risks on people. And that is what you have to remind yourself. That's why as I say, you know, keep your mouth shut. Intervene only when, when is needed. So like in Edelweiss and with the kids we have, you know, I and Vidya have very simple two rules only. And the same rule we follow in Edelweiss also.

[00:19:49] I mean, I don't want them to feel they are another business unit of Edelweiss. But, but these principles are fairly universal when you're dealing with grown up, strong, individual, assertive people. And you want them to be assertive and individual. So there are only two things. I will interfere if there is an existential issue. So if there is something really critical that is there, then even if you don't ask me, I will interfere.

[00:20:18] Fantastic. Or you ask me and even if it is non-critical, if it is not there, you want to see, come to me and say what color shirt I should wear. I will be happy to add value to you. Okay. So either you ask, you, you consult and we are available. 24 by 7 helpline, help desk is available for what you want to be, for what you want my inputs on.

[00:20:43] Or if it is critical, like if you started doing something which affects your health or you started doing something that is existential, then even without you asking, we will interfere and we reserve the right to interfere. And we use the same approach in Adelwise with all the businesses. Like you are running Adelgiv. If you are doing something that can affect or is an existential issue which has criticality

[00:21:09] in terms of compliance, regulation, governance, people, whatever else, then you interfere. Or you there for everything else is consultation. I can vouch for that completely. It actually makes it much easier. So you say, should I interfere or not? Is it existential? No. Yeah. Have they asked me to interfere? No. Then stay out of it. Keep your mouth shut. And that is usually a good rule of thumb. Now I can vouch for that. You do practice that. Vidya practices that.

[00:21:39] Do you feel as a child you benefit from this? Or have you seen this play out with you and Neil? You are not only the daughter, you're the younger sibling. So you have a brother who also cushions you. But do you feel the benefit of this pattern? Because I see them actively doing them at work. Yeah. I think I'm definitely the kind of person that uses them as a 24-7 helpline.

[00:22:06] Even this morning, I asked my mom, what do I wear? What do I wear? So yeah, I'm definitely the kind of person that will always reach out to them and ask for help. And I feel very comfortable being very honest with them, especially about how I feel. I lost my job last year and I was not feeling great. And I don't think I would have gotten through it without speaking to them time and time again. But yeah, there have been moments where there have been existential issues that they have noted.

[00:22:37] And also sort of it's been very beneficial to me because sometimes I think you can not see what's going wrong, especially I guess when you're so young. But having them be kind of not policing, but having, you know, just keeping a watchful eye. Knowing someone cares and is watching over you. So this is three at the table. And the idea also is to delve a little bit into, you know, how you think, what are your approaches in life? You are right now away from home, making independent decisions.

[00:23:06] Of course, there is a helpline. There is a solid backing here from a very wise parents and a family. But in the way the current world is playing out in a competitive environment, what are the challenges that you think young women actually face, which are unique to this generation? Or is it the same old? What are challenges for someone like you, which I mean a young woman wanting to carve her own path in an industry which is new for her,

[00:23:37] following her passion with no real, you know, anchorages there. Like you're not in the financial services business. You're not leveraging your father's network or your mom's network. So what are the, for someone like that, what are the challenges in the world right now? I think one of the biggest challenges that I have faced is showing that I'm like credible and that I'm interested in this. And I think even now when I tell people that I'm interested in public health,

[00:24:04] they'll be like, oh, you're doing something completely opposite to what your family does. And so sometimes I, I don't know if it's true, but sometimes I feel that I come across as less credible or sort of a novice in the field. So I definitely struggle with making my voice heard and speaking up, I think especially. But I hope that our generation has more, has more spaces to speak up. I don't think it's necessarily about confidence, but I think it's having a seat at the table, like we say, seat at the table.

[00:24:34] So, yeah, I think. Yeah. And how do you navigate some of this? Because it is tough. Also, while you're at it, is it also that when you say public health or something that is a little more humanitarian, there is a way of, you know, like, okay, maybe you were not that good at math. That's definitely very true. I mean, I hear people talk about it at Yale, about our department being the easiest department or not very math or stats heavy. So we're like a joke or all of these things. But I don't know.

[00:25:04] I think it, I feel it just emphasizes the importance of the fact that people look away and the fact that people don't really want to engage, I think, shows actually how important it really is. How I navigate it, I think I'm still trying to find ways to navigate it and ways to, I think, build my own confidence and build my own experience. I think networking and meeting like new, like especially like research professionals has been very helpful to me at Yale, especially.

[00:25:33] I've made a lot of connections with professors, faculty. And that has definitely built my confidence to have people that see my skills and believe in me, I think. As a young person, when you go out and meet people, is there something that most people often do that irritates you and you wish that people stop doing it? I think in India, people often ask me, oh, are you going to join your father? I think before asking me, what are you interested in?

[00:26:00] And really like, what are your academic or professional interests? So that is something that I think bothers me a little bit because I would love to talk about it. But I think the question should be more around what do you enjoy and where do you enjoy? You must be asked all the time when are your kids joining the business? Actually, it's interesting. And I was going to remark on that. I mean, yeah, I think we have evolved a lot in India in terms of, you know, corporate India

[00:26:26] and the perception about men and women leaders and all that. And everybody assumes that because you build a business and being a first generation entrepreneur, you want to pass it on to your family, your kids and all that. But interestingly, more people ask me, is your son going to join the business? Yeah. The pressure on Neil. Yeah. But, but, and then I make it a point to saying my son and my daughter,

[00:26:55] I yet not decided what they want to do in life. They are exploring. They are still studying out there. But nobody assumes that when you have a son and a daughter, the assumption is that if at all your kids are joining, it is a son. Yeah. It can be the daughter. You are grooming the daughter to get married to a rich man. So it's, I think those, I think those, you know, perceptions, those, and they're automatic.

[00:27:21] But I mean, from the day we started Edelweiss, I think one of the things we always wanted is we wanted to, and I, you know, I and Venkat spoke about it very early on, that we wanted to build a company where our daughters and our sisters and our wives feel, they felt comfortable. And, you know, I've seen Vidya also dealing with clients and there have been bad experiences with, I think everybody has at some point of time.

[00:27:47] So we were very clear that in Edelweiss, we want to build a culture where our daughters, our wives, our sisters, if they work in this company, they feel safe and they feel appreciated and they feel not ignored and all. And we have had that. I mean, out of the, out of the 10 business leaders we have, four are women. Yes. And we've been truly, I mean, blind to that because our idea is why, you know, why make any assumptions on that?

[00:28:16] Whoever shows up. So it's not that you proactively say we will only promote women because we want to have some quota that we want to fill. At the same time, you are just, you know, blind to that. Yeah. And, and it's, it's amazing. Like just to give you an anecdote of one of our colleagues when she was the, she was number two in the business and the guy who was her boss, he quit. Right. And, and we were looking at who should become the CEO.

[00:28:44] And my instinct was, I think she's a number two. She should become the CEO. We should offer it to her. When we offered that job to her, her, her initial reaction was, I will chat with my husband and come back. And I ask myself sometimes, had it been a guy, he would have said, yeah, I deserve this. This is my birthright. And in the past also, I've, I've, I've, you know, coached and mentored some of the potential women board members and all. Yes.

[00:29:12] And because India needs a lot more women board members. So there was a program at which I was, you know, one of the. FIKI. Yeah. FIKI. Women on corporate boards program. And I was amazing that, that women are very curious. They want to know how to behave on boards, what to do, what not to do, all of that. But and then I see, and I'm on, on boards and I meet and there are guys who are, you know, 20 year old, they suddenly get inducted on the board and they don't feel they need to learn, you know, what a board member does.

[00:29:41] But a 45 year old woman who's very accomplished in her career has been, you know, had 25 years of career experience at that age. Also, she's asking, is it okay to do this on the board? Is it okay to do that on the board? While a 20 year old boy will just join the board and as if it is a birthright. Why do you think that happens, Rishish? I think it's the cultural upbringing is the assumptions.

[00:30:06] It's, I mean, I think everybody who gets inducted on the board should be trained how to be on the board. Yes. And, but it's the cultural upbringing. It's the, you know, not that, I don't think women should be aggressive, but a lot of women find it hard to be assertive. Uh, even in the boards and all that. And that is what I, when I used to coach and mentor them, that is what I would say that don't be aggressive, but be assertive.

[00:30:33] So either you are aggressive or passive and there is a space in between, which is called the assertive space where you are not aggressive, you are not passive and you have to learn to do that. And how do you learn it? By trying, by trying, by doing it. It's almost like a muscle memory because you have to do it enough times for it to become something that you are good at. Absolutely. But there'll be many, many mistakes in the corner. You've always said this and, and you also were, uh, you, you, you institutionalize the women

[00:31:01] on board program when enough people were not really speaking about it. In fact, it was, I think four, five years into the rule that women need to be on corporate boards. Uh, that was also the time when, uh, any woman would be called the token woman, the woman candidate. And she would be like the, the quasi coffee girl in the, in the boardroom. And she would believe it too. Like I know so many women who had a very hard time in that room. Uh, but you were one of those early, uh, male champions who said that we need proper training,

[00:31:31] like not, not talking about it as if, uh, you said everyone needs training and so do women. Everyone needs. They bring a very, very different perspective, especially things like risk management and all. They have a very different approach. And I think more and more boards are realizing that, you know, diversity of opinion that you get the new perspectives you get. And I think if I compare from 1980 to now in the last 40, 45 years, I think we have come a long way. Yes.

[00:32:01] Uh, unfortunately there is still so much more ground to cover that it feels unequal, but I do think there'll be more and more women leaders who will be in corporate India. And hopefully one day we will not even notice whether somebody is a woman or a guy. Yeah. He or she is a leader. No, amen to that. Either a good leader or a bad leader. That would be a beautiful day. Honestly, that would be a, uh, when, when you look at your family with the same principles, you have a phenomenal boy and a wonderful girl.

[00:32:31] And was it different raising both of them? Was there conscious differences? Uh, or did you raise them exactly the same way? Absolutely the same. I mean, that was the first rule we had from day one. There was never any differentiation between a boy and girl in terms of what you do and all, what movies you watch, what you do. All of everything was always, always the same. And that is what we, we have followed that, uh, the, the opportunity set, like when she

[00:33:00] wanted to do computer science, uh, you know, we are very happy. She wants to do public health. We are equally happy. So there is no, and there should not be any, I mean, why should there be a difference? There should not, but there is so much. Did you feel like that when you were being raised that you were always equal to Neil and, or did you, I mean, younger children have their own quibs and elder children have their own. And, uh, did you, did you feel that you were being treated exactly like Neil? I think so.

[00:33:28] In fact, he, he always remarks that I got a phone before he got a phone and all of these things.

[00:33:43] Um, I, I, I, I, myself as an outsider could see how people would be treated differently. And to me, it was always very strange, um, because I, I do think from, from day one, I think I never felt a difference between Neil and I besides the age.

[00:34:13] And as you navigate the outside world, what are some of the things that you would say, uh, worked very well for you in how you were raised? Uh, and I, and I say this because we have, we will be having so many people listen to this and you are that person now. And a lot of young girls are that, that person now. And if there was something that, that parents could hear that this, this works in your favor, what would the top two, three things be?

[00:34:40] Um, I think one is being completely present to it when you have time with your children, especially when you're, um, in, in corporate India. And so you have very long work hours and, um, you have to cordon off time for your children. I think being completely present during that time. Um, also, like I said, empathy, I think meeting your children where they are, I'm sure it's hard as they get older to, um, empathize with them because you're also getting older, but I think, um, meeting them where they are and seeing their concerns and, and, um, their

[00:35:08] flaws as, as real and, and part of the time, I think is, is one of the things that I really appreciated about my best. That's very cool. And, uh, Rajesh, in the, in, in the corporate environment, uh, we, you know, whether statistically or otherwise, we keep seeing that the corporate structures were created in a time when there were very less women. So not intentionally, but it's a system that works for men made by men largely. And now in more than ever before women have, uh, are growing up the ladder.

[00:35:38] And, uh, we need a lot of that adaptation. We need a lot of the, as a leader now of, of, again, you have companies that are fairly young compared to the legacy companies. How does one keep up with the times, which basically, you know, on a family level, it means that values shift all the time at that in, and in the, in the shifting spectrum of things, uh, you have a motto like ideas create and values protect. How does, how does one navigate the fluidity of what happens around us?

[00:36:08] No, I think in all of this, uh, since the day we started Edelweiss, as we said, you know, be clear about the values. And there are some things you want to be blind to. I mean, uh, things like gender and religion and color of the skin and whatever else, whether somebody is good looking, tall, all those things you can be blind to because it really doesn't add anything. You don't want to be blind to other things like competency and drive and ambition and attitude and all. So you, you just have that clarity, what you are blind to and what you are not going to be blind to. Mm-hmm.

[00:36:37] Because that itself is a good starting point and constantly remind yourself that these are things we are blind to. So a lot of things in Edelweiss we are blind to until somebody points it out. We don't even realize and including, I mean, you must have seen even about, uh, about religion or so when you're promoting somebody, you don't even have a conversation, whether it's a man or a woman, it's a guy or somebody will say, you know, long hours. And we say actually women have worked longer hours in Edelweiss than, you know, we have seen. So, so, and we have seen a whole plethora.

[00:37:07] I mean, in our global markets teams, there are some great women out there. So across the board, we have seen that it's actually good to be blind. It actually is more efficient for the organization to be blind to a lot of things. The other things you don't want to be blind to, which is ambition, appropriateness, attitude, a lot of those things and idea is to, to be equal on everything. So if you can be, if you can be even handed, it just increases the effectiveness and optionality. And what do you get?

[00:37:37] I mean, same thing, you know, whether somebody comes from one particular community or not from that community, you can be completely blind to that because where is that? Because there is no, in Edelweiss what we have said is there is no real people like us. Because though we've been accused that maybe there are too many MBAs and too many CAs and too many Baniyas and all that, but all that has happened as just by being blind. There is a funnel out there. People go through the funnel. Yeah.

[00:38:04] The funnel doesn't say if you are X, Y, Z, it's easier to go through the funnel. Whoever gets through the funnel gets through the funnel. The funnel is the same for everybody. So I think having that clarity first is very. Secondly, second, you want to build organizations for what? You have to be again very clear on that. For us, it is about value creation and value creation for all stakeholders, the shareholders, the employees, the customers, all of that.

[00:38:32] And that clarity also helps. I mean, it's not that we want to create only for shareholders, the most highest market cap and all of that. So once you are clear about some of the basic fundamentals, then everything else is then shared execution and believing in that. And one of the things a lot of people ask me, what is culture? Because that is also one big area of conversation that happens. And I've always found that culture is only two things. Walk and talk.

[00:39:00] If they are in sync with each other, what you walk and what you talk, then it's easier. So since we believe that that is how culture gets created, so we talk about being blind to a lot of things. We talk about, you know, being very even-handed in assessing, evaluating everybody's, their current performance, their potential, all of that. And we also execute on that. And now that we have held ourselves to this, when we don't execute people like you, come to us and say, you know, you were saying this, but you did that.

[00:39:29] So as long as you walk and talk, I think your life becomes much easier if you walk and talk are in sync with each other. And that is how the best culture gets created. And as you get older, and I'm now pretty old, as you get older, you realize that more than anything else, it's the culture of the organization that is the root. I mean, everything starts with that. Everything starts with that. And everything, people and your processes and everything comes from that culture part

[00:39:58] that is there in the organization. Very easy to build culture. Be clear what you talk about and then make sure you actually execute on the same thing. You just shocked me when you said it's very easy to build culture. I think that culture is by far, I think the beauty of what you're sharing is that you're so clear on the culture you would like to see. Like we, many times when I talk to people, what I see is, yeah, we want an inclusive culture.

[00:40:24] We want, there's a lot of adjectives about, you know, better, bigger, diverse, inclusive. There's a lot of adjectives which I'm not sure we even appreciate what they really mean. But what you're sharing is our values that kind of bind culture. Yeah, but along with that, we should be clear. Our culture is also not perfect. There are a lot of flaws in our culture. Sometimes we get too pushy. Sometimes we are too Excel oriented. We become very quant oriented. All that also comes in.

[00:40:51] There's an optimization culture in Irvine on which I get feedback all the time. So, there are parts of the culture which are also there. But ultimately, it's like you only attract people who will adapt to this culture and see the positive culture. But hence, I'm not saying whether culture is good or bad. But if you can walk and talk in sync, culture is easier to build. Yeah. And as you build that out for your team, I know you said that women struggle with being assertive. Assertive.

[00:41:21] Are there one or two remarkable differences in how women leaders respond to authority or opportunities? And I would also qualify that. Yeah. What I'm talking about is averages. Yes, yes, of course. I've seen men also who are very, you know, conflict avoiding, who are non assertive and all that. Except on the averages, I think men find aggression a lot easier. And you have to tell them don't be aggressive, be assertive. Yeah.

[00:41:51] I think women find it easier to be passive. Yeah. And you have to tell them don't be passive, be assertive. So, I think our word for everybody is assertive. Whether you are, you know, a guy or a girl. But I think women, if they find the right environment, they come of age on their own. And I think the environment makes a big difference. So, if you define the rules of the game and say that it is safe for you to be yourself and as a leader.

[00:42:21] But yeah, we also will evaluate you and your performance is important and we'll push you and all of that. But I think it's pretty easy. I don't think there is anything really, really special you need to do. But if at all you can expand the leadership catchment area that you have and say I'm not going to rule out anybody based on their gender or based on anything else.

[00:42:50] It's just more effective for you. And I'm saying what do you get by cutting off or, you know, filtering it out unnecessarily. You know, you're reminding me of two conversations we had on this podcast. One was Ram Kumar of ICICI. He came and he had said that, who said there's a talent gap in this country. Okay. You have a mechanism in which you attract all kinds of people. Women will walk in, you know, third genders will walk in, different capabilities will walk in.

[00:43:19] And we look for a certain, you know, we are so fixated on a certain kind that we kill our own talent pool. And the other one, Neelu Khatri, who's, you know, co-founder of Akasa. She was talking about mentorship and she said, I'm very, I mean, I basically don't believe in mentorship till you give the right environment. First is, is the woman ready for being mentored?

[00:43:44] Which means is her, is her environment making her feel safe, making her feel that she wants to learn, she wants to grow. And that's, you're, you're speaking, basically, I just remembered both of them that way. Clearly, you got that environment at home. And a lot of what he's saying about work, does that resonate with what you saw of him and of Vidya at home?

[00:44:08] Yeah, I think, I think the, what you, you should walk and talk sort of in sync, I think is something that we've always been raised with. And I think the sort of home culture also has its own value systems. And I'm sure a lot of it also happens at Edelweiss. But yeah, I think I, there's, it's been rare that I've seen my parents not walk and talk sort of in sync. So what they say and what they do usually are in sync, I would say.

[00:44:34] As you look into the future, Avanti, what, what would be like, do you have any fears about the future? I mean, fear is a very strong word, but any, you know, like there's so much uncertainty. We don't, we can't look into the future. What, I mean, how do you feel about the unknown? I think I definitely feel fear, especially if I were to, you know, maybe continue living abroad for a few years. I think there is definitely a lot of fear in navigating a new space with a new culture and new people.

[00:45:02] And now I'm studying something that, that's completely new and I don't have a stronger background. And, but I think the unknown also kind of excites me. I think the, there are so many potential ways I could go on so many different opportunities that I think I try to just focus on what I could do and how exciting that could be rather than being afraid of uncertainty. I always tell Avanti that her fear of challenge is bigger than the actual challenge itself.

[00:45:28] Because when she dives into that, she ends up like, I remember when she was very young and I used to give, I used to do homework with her. And I would, I would tell her, okay, we'll do 100 sums in maths. She'll say, 100, oh, I can't do, I got this. Then she'll start doing it and she won't even know before 100 is already over. So actually doing it is a lot easier for her. Thinking about doing it is a lot harder. Yeah, I heard somewhere that the, it's after jumping that I realized the ocean I was scared of was a puddle.

[00:45:58] So that when you, when you look at your parents, okay. And if I had to ask you, what are, what are some of the things you really admire about your mom and you would like to take that forward in you as a personality? I think one thing that I really admire about her is, is her generosity and, and, and her thoughtfulness. I think the way that she can interact with, with people and even we, we recently went on a family holiday.

[00:46:20] And the way that she was talking to locals and learning about their stories and the, the way that she sees humanity and everybody, I think is so, it's so powerful. And I hope I can, you know, even just be a fraction of that. That's beautiful. And, and what, what do you hope to carry from your father? I think one thing that I really admire about him is his sense of discipline. That's something that both sort of in the, the things that he does, but also the things that he thinks and the things that he says.

[00:46:47] Um, I think he, he really is what he stands for. And, and that's something that I also again, hope to be in the future. Thank you. But, but again, there is a lot of work to be done on all this area. No, but the beauty is you believe you're a work in progress. That's, that's, that's a very beautiful thing. In fact, I tell Vidya and the kids that, uh, this life is my trial life. I've got all my SOPs and checklists, how to be a better father, how to be a better husband.

[00:47:15] By trial and error, I'm learning it. In my, in my next life, I'll be a perfect father. So, so they have to make sure they are again born in the same house. And Vidya has to get married to me so that now they can enjoy, you know, the perfect husband and perfect father. Because I've learned everything in this life. What are you most proud about, Avanti? How she is, she's our own person, how she has her own voice.

[00:47:42] She's, she is, uh, fairly, uh, I mean, she's articulate and she's very clear and all that. Uh, but she is fairly determined and whatever. And she's highly adaptable. I mean, she's gone into environments where I was worried whether she'll adapt to a new school and all that. And she's very adaptable. She takes it very well. She's, I mean, she's also very, very disciplined about what she needs to get done. Uh, so I think, uh, lots of things.

[00:48:12] I think there are, there are lots of things that sometimes when you see all these good things, I tell Vidya, it's a good thing. We swap, uh, we swap babies in the hospital because it can't be our kids. Oh my God, this is, this is good. And there's one question that I had to ask you, which is the question that almost all women get asked at least once in their lifetime, which I, I mean, I was thinking a lot, should I, should I not? But I can't let you go without asking, which is you do so many things.

[00:48:41] You manage office, you manage running, your fitness, you're also managing a family. How do you manage your work life balance, Rashi? Actually, uh, I, I think A is, as I said, first thing is don't take yourself too seriously. So I've never been the kind of CEO who says I work 80 hours a week and all. Yeah. Are there weeks I've worked more than 80 hours? There are weeks I've worked. So I am actually very driven by the need and effectiveness. So for me, the most important word is effectiveness.

[00:49:11] If by working 80 hours, I'm, I'm effective. Then I'm happy to work 80 hours. If I can work 40 hours and be effective, I'm happy to work 40 hours. So my approach has been, it is not the hours. It is not work life balance that you are compromising one for the other. Yes. Have there been holidays where I've been on calls? Have there been holidays that I could not go with them because of some other work out there? That is cost of doing business. I mean, that is part and parcel of that. But there have been holidays. You are completely switched off.

[00:49:41] So my thing is, whatever it takes, there is no real extra effort that, oh my God, I've been, I need to have work life balance. There is always work life balance. Sometimes work is more. Sometimes life is more. On an average, you achieve balance. But you don't achieve that balance every day. So it's not that every day you need the balance. But it will be a big balance. And as I said, the idea is to not take yourself too seriously. Yeah.

[00:50:09] And you are not indispensable. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you. The idea of getting you both together was to respond to some of the things that we had seen constantly. That a daughter's upbringing has a lot to do with how she turns out, how she stands up for herself. The level of struggle she has to undergo and how she navigates power of all the things. And yes, talking to you again reassures me that strong fathers can make strong daughters.

[00:50:40] And yes, it's very, I mean, I hope to catch you again once you've achieved a reasonable amount of what you would like to achieve. Because if you are the daughter of your parents, you have never achieved everything till it's all over. So, but it's so happy to see. And so it makes me really very happy to see a relationship that is so strong and is the foundation of many good things that will happen to her life as well as yours. So thank you very much for being so candid.

[00:51:07] And I want to add that I hope she achieves what she goes on to achieve, but I also hope she fails and struggles also. Because that is also part and parcel of, you know, how we all evolve. Yes, yes. It's a very, very beautifully said. So thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And great to do this with Avati. It was fun. Yeah, lots of fun. Thank you.