387: Creating the sounds of evil. "The Zone of Interest' sound designer Johnnie Burn ('Poor Things' 'Nope')

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[00:01:28] Brilliant sound designer on the film. Burn has worked with Glazer on movies and music videos for decades, but embarking on this project was frightening and working on it incredibly difficult, including on a personal level.

[00:01:42] But what they achieved is one of the best and most powerful films of the year.

[00:01:47] In the zone of interest we follow common don't Rudolf Hus and his wife head wig played by Christian Friedel and Sandra Huller.

[00:01:56] Their children and their beautiful home in garden with just a wall separating them from the extermination camp.

[00:02:03] It's the normality of evil, a film that speaks as much to the past as to the present.

[00:02:08] I just want to say that in the first part of our conversation about creating the soundscape from zone of interest, the talking includes some very difficult and emotional things to hear.

[00:02:21] This is not the only movie Johnny Burn has this Oscar season. He's also worked on the critically acclaimed and award-winning poor things starring Emma Stone, together with another long time collaborator director Jorgos Lompimos.

[00:02:34] We also talk about creating alien sounds for Jordan Peel's note. What's his relationship to sound when he's not working, when he's just walking around as a civilian?

[00:02:45] What sounds he hates and what Madonna taught him? We get into all that and more. Here is my fascinating conversation with Johnny Burn.

[00:02:56] Mr. Burn, thank you so much for joining me.

[00:02:58] Christina, love you to meet you. Thank you for your time.

[00:03:01] We're going to get into several of your films and work but I want to start with your incredible work with Jonathan Glazer in Zone of interest.

[00:03:10] Now you have worked together with him for decades. When he approached you with the Zone of interest, what was your first reaction?

[00:03:18] Yeah, I have worked in the decades on many projects outside of films as well.

[00:03:24] Like pop promos and commercial things like that.

[00:03:28] And so we discussed the Zone of interest in the years following under the skin.

[00:03:33] And John does just date for some time but I read the script probably first maybe a year before filming.

[00:03:40] And my reaction was sort of somewhere near panic probably. It was, oh my goodness, this film requires such responsibility in two ways.

[00:03:50] You know, like the film really needs an enormous amount of work from sound in order to make the whole thing work.

[00:03:58] And the responsibility and the immersion in the subject matter and of getting that right without sensationalizing.

[00:04:07] Yeah, so my initial reaction was something pretty close to I'm sorry I can't do this.

[00:04:15] And then you know, obviously figuring out how to do it and reacting by spending a year researching everything that I could.

[00:04:23] What was it he said to you, I'm sure it wasn't just one conversation but that made you feel that we could make this important movie in the right way.

[00:04:32] We knew that some was going to be important and that it was going to convey, you know, John was was very clear that we would never go inside the camp and that we all know.

[00:04:44] You know, we all have images in our head of the atrocities and there's absolutely no interest from John, you know, all myself or anyone else to to be displaying any of that.

[00:04:56] So I think that you know, the challenge of drawing pictures in people's head is really, you know, obviously why I was interested on a kind of I suppose self is professional level but more importantly, you know, telling the story that making sure this is not forgotten.

[00:05:13] You said that there's basically two films here the one you hear and the one you see talk about what the film is that we hear.

[00:05:23] Yeah, so the film we hear is this constant juxtaposition of we have the film one is the film you see and that's the mentality of the host's family life within enormous amount of detail to deliver an immersion of credibility.

[00:05:40] And the film that you hear is is a soundscape of horror and it's, you know, the most violent film ever worked on on it's and it's the death of many hundreds of thousands of people and and it is the result of, you know, a year of research and and a year of creation of sounds as best as possibly made to recreate.

[00:06:10] Those actions and those events and then carefully placed on the film in order to as unsensationly as possible.

[00:06:20] Tell the story without going to the point of having to show any of this.

[00:06:25] You talk about the research what kind of research was it and what did you learn from it in terms of the auditory soundscapes that you were making.

[00:06:33] Yeah, originally I just thought why we need to know everything about what happened here and what that would have sounded like and how it would have sounded.

[00:06:41] And so from a sort of practical point of view the physicality of you know like I had a map and I knew that that block had a lot of Joan cards in it but this one was French prisoners and these ones were Polish and so where those different voices would come from in the soundscape of a theatre and and that the execution block weather.

[00:07:03] And so the voice of six gunshots would regularly ring out murdering 80 people a day that came from 150 yards away and and that we would have to record that you know at that correct distance with the correct reflection sort of other buildings to sound appropriate and.

[00:07:20] And so we would need to know when it would be the right time to use those sounds and and also things like you know understanding that the guns that they used were the ones from the first world war because you know the modern machines would go to the front line and so all the.

[00:07:37] And so we are all the things like that we will actually very old and but getting those specifically correct so that whenever we hear cars passing on the road you know it was the right stuff but.

[00:07:47] But the bulk of it and the certainly more honest task was reading witnessed testimony and having access to the.

[00:08:06] And I was described that might have an acoustic signature to it.

[00:08:09] I would document that and and I created a large document that that was a series of events that we would then use our recordings to as best as we could.

[00:08:20] And we create a really nice these scenarios and you know and there were other sources like you know John would you know whenever he found anything.

[00:08:29] He would send it to me and it might you know there were many drawings that survivors are made and you know picture telling a thousand words would would describe a scene and we would you know make the sound of that and so basically it was.

[00:08:40] And so it was actually created document and document gave us a library and the library was of hundreds and hundreds of different events that we understood had happened and.

[00:08:50] And another things like you know the sound of literally the electric fence and that there were.

[00:08:56] And the sound of the crematorium and and the sound of you know a hundred people weighing wooden plugs marching across a gravely surface and all of those things that we needed.

[00:09:09] And so we were able to have in our disposal because the process of making the film was was that we created film one we kind of finished it and that was a nice family drama.

[00:09:20] And and we and we didn't put any of film to onto that until we had that one pretty much locked down so so I had.

[00:09:29] Through research and you know I had the whole of the shoot and the first year of post production to get all the.

[00:09:36] This other sounds gave ready so that when John felt it was the right time, you know we could we could then start introducing that.

[00:09:43] You talked about that you were reading some events is there any particular event you can tell me about that you read that really struck you in terms of thinking of it sound.

[00:09:56] Yeah, I mean there was so I mean people would choose to run at the electric fence.

[00:10:02] Rather than continue with what they were doing and some of those things were so awful that you know we'd put them in and then took them out because something they didn't make him because it was just.

[00:10:13] And so I was able to do that to blood curdling and came across as sensationalised and and you know and that people were regularly wet, you know for no reason at all and that there were.

[00:10:25] The guards would murder people on the spot for you know for incidents or for.

[00:10:33] Or for seemingly found or whatever but so that yeah I mean yeah just.

[00:10:40] Yeah, but yeah that was the hard bit, you know even talking about it now is pretty awful but yeah I kid bursting that to a period of time is tricky.

[00:10:48] Yeah, I mean I had a honestly a very physical reaction after seeing the movie this summer I took me quite a while afterwards left the theater and sat down and then.

[00:11:01] What was that like for you? I can I mean just hearing you speak of it I can see in here that it's very impactful.

[00:11:07] Yeah, I mean yeah certainly my wife said that you know early on she's like I think you're getting depressed and and certainly the process of making any film is always an immersion it's.

[00:11:18] But this more so than any other and and enormous and you know and we work really hard right up until the can premiere and you know those last months were very long and it weirdly I woke up the morning after the can premiere and.

[00:11:34] I had a terrible headache and a rash what I've my legs and I got the viral meningitis and I was in hospital for a week and the doctor explained to me something to do with.

[00:11:43] You know having a lot of cortisol and then and then and then you know that stops and that's what's kept the bug anyway but so I think it literally had a physical reaction to.

[00:11:53] Actually yeah. I actually did so but you know but this story is telling and it's not like it was there so you know definitely lucky and that's fine.

[00:12:03] But talking about the process you were mentioning that you actually if when you went out and you recorded it talk about how you and Jonathan work.

[00:12:11] So John was like I'm going to go and shoot this film and in the meantime you're going to go and.

[00:12:16] You know get the sound that we'll need for later and and we agreed that you know I said well how about I spend this year trying to make 24 hours in Auschwitz and what the sound of that would be.

[00:12:29] And and he's a great you know that's that let's start with that and so that was kind of my brief of you know and John the kind of one thing he said to me was what I don't ever want to do is get ten actors in a booth in you know a son room and say right now pretend this is happening you know.

[00:12:44] Because that's just never going to work so you know and and to be honest we did you know I'm going to did actually try that kind of stuff but it.

[00:12:54] But the sound that you hear is is pretty much all sound really recorded in real life and it's repurposed for example we went to various different football matches around Europe where different nationality young men would be playing.

[00:13:09] And if you go to a football match where it's low division and there are no spectators you will invariably hear someone screaming in pain.

[00:13:17] And that and that is real and it's finding places like where things like that happen.

[00:13:23] Hospitals are good places for pain, you know things like that and the power is right we visited.

[00:13:30] And we listened to the torture and Belarus that happened a few years ago and things that said just you know having enough time to spend.

[00:13:38] And it's not just coming in the real world for things that actually have authenticity because.

[00:13:45] It was extraordinary the minute we put in anything that was not credible it would.

[00:13:51] It was the kind of like a soul firm you know and it would be.

[00:13:53] So obviously wrong and inappropriate and and that's a real testament to kind of how credible I think the film is you know and without any sort of.

[00:14:03] Would enacting whatever is in the world but yeah it's not it doesn't feel like in any way like a dramatization does it's.

[00:14:09] Oh it doesn't and in terms of the filming I understand that you rigged the house with cameras at there were no crew in there that the family was basically.

[00:14:21] As as Jonathan has described it the Nazi big brother house how did that work for you.

[00:14:26] I mean it was really powerful because a tape might be an hour long because that was the memory stick in one of the 10 cameras and the cameras have been hidden and and there were 20 hidden microphones.

[00:14:36] You know John's brief was I want to hear people in the house you know and we felt that that observational thing of.

[00:14:42] But steps and teacups rattling and doors and everything was way more important so we we hit microphones everywhere to capture the kind of ambience of people.

[00:14:50] And that became super powerful because when we put the films together we would have I would have all the different microphones lined up and I could say okay we still want to hear the boy banging the drum upstairs.

[00:15:00] And that needs to go over these three shots all the whole scene or whatever and so when Rudolf is lying in the office listening to the football on the radio.

[00:15:10] And we you know what really the the mother the wife was talking in the kitchen at that time and the dog was running around and now freedom was walking around with the baby and that was crying and the boys are upstairs and all these things and the the younger boy in the girl were outside the window and so we had all those sounds that really were taking place.

[00:15:30] And you know and we perhaps repositioned them slightly you know so that you could hear everything.

[00:15:35] And in its own space but very much I think that's why the film is so powerful because on a subliminal level it's shockingly credible you know your you know where's normally a film would be you know you hear kind of room tone and a bit of dialogue with John he's creating a whole whole world and that's what we're aiming to do was.

[00:15:54] To use all this you know really amazingly rich sound that is you know the film set not only where they're no crew but it was a it was a proper build so the the floor wasn't a sort of let's make this.

[00:16:08] Floor look concrete but actually be made of rubber so that we don't interfere with the recording of the dialogue as you would.

[00:16:13] And you know everything sounded like it should and the walls were solid and so what we have was was really great sound.

[00:16:21] You're creating a world or creating something natural and and and and really bringing us into to the atrocity of the fact that it's so normal it's.

[00:16:31] It's a atrocities committed by Mr. and Mrs Smith us commander has said his wife I mean they're hearing but they're not listening.

[00:16:42] What did you learn about them about this type of atrocity from immersing yourself so much in it.

[00:16:51] Yeah, well you can shut your eyes but you can't shut your ears as suppose is is what we're thinking yeah I mean obviously it was willful wasn't it that that there would be like that but I think the minute that penny drops on you.

[00:17:05] You start thinking well obviously that could be me so you know how capable of all of my and in all of this I think that was very much the point was that you know this is humans doing this to other humans and it's not look at those Nazis it's.

[00:17:18] We all have this capacity for violence in us and then that's what we should be discussing how we turn that down more than it is.

[00:17:27] Was there a scene that was more challenging than others for you?

[00:17:32] Certainly when when Rudolf is smoking in cigar in the garden and he's hearing the gas chamber at work over the wall that that was even pat I think it was horrible but you know getting to a point where you can use adjectives like yeah that's good you know we like that or let's move on.

[00:17:48] You know there certainly wasn't amount of you know pragmatically we have to focus on working on the film and you know I know John very well and we're good friends and so.

[00:17:58] Working with him is you know it's catharsic because you're you know you haven't been going you're making it but there that there were periods during that process where you think what are we doing here.

[00:18:07] You know this is really difficult well you really made a film that speaks not only to the past but of course to the present so so thank you.

[00:18:17] I'm going to move on to some other projects you have done.

[00:18:21] I know what you like it but before I get into that I'm wondering when you're not on the job as a civilian when you're walking around.

[00:18:29] Maybe you're in LA now when you're listening to things what's your relationship to sound as a civilian are you working or.

[00:18:38] Yeah I am unfortunately I'm constantly thinking oh I wish I had a microphone and often record stuff and and it.

[00:18:46] I think it's really interesting because most people come making a film soundscape by deciding what they what they can put in.

[00:18:55] They tend to want to start with just the dialogue and then it's what you add and I always think you know I let's go and see where that something is close to that.

[00:19:05] I existence in the real world and see and put all of that in and then see what you want to take out kind of thing so.

[00:19:11] And because invariably you know there's there's cars and and obviously Syrons and and Siren is something if you were doing a street scene in any city, you would think to put in but you wouldn't think to put in man with shovel digging and that weird scraping noise or any of those other.

[00:19:27] So I'm always struck by the fortuitous,

[00:19:31] spears, strange sounds.

[00:19:33] And those are the things that I think give you a better

[00:19:36] immersion because you're like, oh,

[00:19:39] you know, it's on a subconscious level, you're like, yeah,

[00:19:40] that does happen, you know that.

[00:19:42] That's cool, yeah.

[00:19:43] There shouldn't sound too hate.

[00:19:44] Oh, well, the one sound I have a fob you're of is,

[00:19:48] you know, like paper, if it rips like that, no problem.

[00:19:53] But it paper shears and separates.

[00:19:55] Yes.

[00:19:56] That whatever that is, oh man,

[00:20:00] I'm done for the day then on sound.

[00:20:02] So you've never used that in a film?

[00:20:04] I don't know when I hear it.

[00:20:06] No.

[00:20:07] That's your next horror film.

[00:20:10] And what about the sound you most loved?

[00:20:12] Oh, it's been my family.

[00:20:15] I would have thought, yeah, people talking.

[00:20:18] People talking, a nice warm environment, yeah.

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[00:20:55] podcast.

[00:20:56] Let's talk about Yorgos Lantzimus, who's also a long time

[00:20:59] um, collaborator.

[00:21:01] How is he different from Jonathan in terms of your collaboration with him?

[00:21:07] Yeah, very different.

[00:21:09] And Jonathan is rather hands on and wants to understand the nuts and bolts

[00:21:15] of how we do things together.

[00:21:18] And Jouil Voss is exactly as meticulous and, you know,

[00:21:24] and incredibly high standards.

[00:21:27] But what he says to me is,

[00:21:29] Yorgos Lantzimus, you do it.

[00:21:30] So I now get to the point of pretty much finishing a film,

[00:21:34] sound, skate, and mix, and everything before playing it to him.

[00:21:39] Because, you know, because it was, you know, his prolific, so he

[00:21:42] he needs to do that.

[00:21:44] But I was talking to him last night, actually, the girls at the

[00:21:46] Governor of Walson about, you know, when can I pay you the next film that we're

[00:21:49] working on kinds of kindness?

[00:21:51] And he was like, have you finished it yet?

[00:21:53] Nearly.

[00:21:54] And he said, well, you know, that's when you play it.

[00:21:57] You know, I don't, there's no point involving me unless you're happy.

[00:22:00] And this came about because we had done the lobster together and that obviously went

[00:22:05] very well.

[00:22:06] And then we were working on killing of a sacred deer and we had just got to the point

[00:22:09] of finishing editing the picture and I'd been somewhat involved in

[00:22:13] providing sounds that worked, made the cut work, sound as I'm pieces.

[00:22:16] And then, and we were about to go through and I was about to, you know, get him in

[00:22:21] a spotting session and all of that stuff.

[00:22:24] And then the favorite became unexpectedly green lip because I think

[00:22:27] Emma Stone became free.

[00:22:29] And he came in the next day and said, listen, I'm sorry, I've got to go

[00:22:32] and you're going to have to finish his film on your own.

[00:22:37] And I said, well, can we just watch it and talk through and he's like, no, no, I really am going

[00:22:41] now, you know, this minute.

[00:22:42] So we didn't even have they watched the film together conversation.

[00:22:47] And the first time during the process making it, and I did the final mix and I got a

[00:22:51] car for him to come and watch it and, you know, I need to say that I don't have the

[00:22:56] headspace to, you know, I'm in the middle of another film.

[00:23:00] And so we smashed cut to the scan premiere where I'm sitting six

[00:23:05] seats over from your glass.

[00:23:08] Brother Hotten sweating myself and thinking, oh my god, I hope he likes it and, you

[00:23:12] know, the like, go do him enough and the film plays and, and uh, yeah and then

[00:23:15] then in the bar afterwards, I was like, so what did you think?

[00:23:18] Oh yeah, I like it.

[00:23:19] Jesus.

[00:23:19] I mean, it was the worst who has my life and, you know, he, but he loved it, right?

[00:23:23] He loved it.

[00:23:24] Yeah.

[00:23:24] Well, you're going to say, you're going to say, what did you

[00:23:26] do like it? And he said, no, not really.

[00:23:29] And he said, but it's okay, we can fix it and then when we fixed it, there was

[00:23:33] like, you know, three things that he didn't like. So, so yeah, I

[00:23:36] weren't in his trust, I think. Oh no.

[00:23:38] But what was interesting about that was was that he, he really forced me to

[00:23:42] to, I spent a whole lifetime giving a director three versions,

[00:23:45] you know, do you want chicken or beef or whatever?

[00:23:49] And, and but I realized that I came to realize that you, there is only one

[00:23:53] solution. And you just have to think harder and you have to wear the hat of the

[00:23:57] film maker, not the sound designer. And, and you have to, you know, find what's

[00:24:01] best for the film and there is only one thing.

[00:24:03] I love that advice for life.

[00:24:05] Okay.

[00:24:05] There's only one way.

[00:24:07] Um, what was the brief he gave you for four things, which sort of

[00:24:11] atmospherically, it feels so different from what we were just talking about.

[00:24:15] And I'm thinking that the sounds are sort of from Bella's perspective,

[00:24:20] who's who's learning life from the beginning.

[00:24:24] Yeah. Um, honestly, he didn't give me a brief. I mean,

[00:24:27] just do it.

[00:24:29] Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, that I definitely always try and, you know, work

[00:24:33] from a subjective point of view on any scene. And I, you know, I remember when I first

[00:24:38] met Jordan Peel, he was like, I think I understand what you

[00:24:41] are and do with sound, you know, and he said it's about a subjectivity, right?

[00:24:44] And even if a scene is not a POV or anything like that.

[00:24:47] Um, but yeah, so, um, I think, you know, you'll go to those that I

[00:24:52] understand his film making. And when your ghost chooses the collaborator,

[00:24:56] it is exactly you are chosen because, you know, because you understand how I want to make

[00:25:01] a film and you understand what we're all trying to do here. So

[00:25:03] do your thing and here's the space in which you, you know,

[00:25:06] have as much pre-spaces you like to do what you want to do. So,

[00:25:10] yeah, that was all about, um, on the one hand creating unusual

[00:25:14] environments that stood up and sounded normal in amongst, you know, these extraordinary

[00:25:19] set builds and how kind of wild and surreal they are. So that

[00:25:23] people like my mother who would say what can mean you do the sound of films they sound

[00:25:27] right to me, she, they would think that that sounded normal

[00:25:30] when it isn't. But, you know, but commentially feels like it.

[00:25:35] And then understanding how to, yeah, exactly as you say,

[00:25:39] how to pitch every scene so that it becomes a protagonist point of view

[00:25:43] normally better. And what is the sound that you use to make God's

[00:25:48] belch? Yeah, well I won't do it right now but there's, yeah, it's

[00:25:54] it is a belch and it's also, um, yeah, I mean, so much of sound I tend to do with my

[00:26:01] own voice. And then the process of making note was, um,

[00:26:05] a lot of the sound design. The first six months was Jordan and I on a zoom

[00:26:09] Jordan peels, nope, you're talking about yeah. Sorry, yeah, Jordan peels,

[00:26:12] nope, there was for six months I would meet him two or three times a week

[00:26:17] for an hour on zoom where I would go through what I had discovered. And

[00:26:21] a lot of it because it was a zoom call I would just do with my

[00:26:24] mouth, um, because that was easiest way of demonstrating to him. And so those things

[00:26:29] stayed in the film. And but yeah, so that's what God's

[00:26:32] you have to demonstrate something now that you said it from

[00:26:36] move. On note, there's the, um, the, uh, the, the, the monster is a

[00:26:45] and that is, is the, it's searching but it's like a, that's massively slow down.

[00:26:51] So that's, so that's, that's the kind of big, um,

[00:26:55] yeah, monster sound. But yeah, and so God's thing was a combination of

[00:26:59] a, uh, of a barp and, and this thing that, uh, these amazing,

[00:27:04] amazing, fully team, um, did with a tube, a pipe and a,

[00:27:09] and a flask and a big funnel thing. So yeah, talking about Jordan peels,

[00:27:14] because, because the sound is absolutely stunning in, in, in, nope.

[00:27:19] It's like the same idea right, lots of the violence isn't really shown where

[00:27:23] we're, we're feeling the violence through your work.

[00:27:26] What was, what was his brief in terms of how he wanted that to feel?

[00:27:32] Yeah, he's, um, again, he's very hands-on Jordan. He, and he really understands

[00:27:35] sound, you know, he's a musician and, and all of those, um, you know,

[00:27:40] medically talented people of things but he, um, um, you know, what was the

[00:27:45] brief? It was, and that was an interesting, because he sent me the script

[00:27:50] and, um, and I sent him back a few ideas that I thought would help

[00:27:53] use sound slightly more integratedly and, and he sent me a note and he'd put them all in,

[00:27:58] you know, he was, he, um, you know, he, you know, he, you know, he,

[00:28:02] embraced the idea of revising the script a little to, in order to push the sound

[00:28:08] narrative. And, um, and I think that's really powerful because there's so much where

[00:28:13] you obviously don't have to see something and it, and then, because, you know,

[00:28:18] the image that you draw in your own head is always going to be more scary than

[00:28:22] the one that you get shown. So I think that's what he was sort of really understanding and,

[00:28:28] um, what was briefs, um, yes, so much of it was just about creating an identity and a,

[00:28:34] an character for for this monster, something that was sort of unique and iconic, I think,

[00:28:39] as the, the main, just. Is there a genre or a filmmaker that you'd love to,

[00:28:47] to work in or with that really would be a challenge for you? I mean, you've done so much.

[00:28:53] Oh, but it's like to work with cast of users and, oh, I mean, I, I, yeah, I do want to

[00:28:58] work with Saffty brothers, either one of them would do. Um, but.

[00:29:03] Interesting why. And, which is because I think that, you know, good time is so

[00:29:07] extraordinary and the energy and I'm kind of gems and I'd, and just because I think there

[00:29:12] are, you know, really forward thinking and and trying to, uh, you know, a great boundaries.

[00:29:18] And that's what I find really exciting is, is trying to tell stories in new ways of telling stories.

[00:29:23] Yes, it is. It is an interesting. I mean, because that's, you know, a very naturalistic

[00:29:27] and very talking and what other films and sound designers have influenced you historically.

[00:29:35] I'm thinking you're going to say Walter Merch. I mean, the, I want to much would be eager

[00:29:40] to go to, wouldn't it? I mean, yeah, I, what I didn't, yeah, as an extraordinary, um, you know,

[00:29:45] obviously a proxist now is an incredible seminal film for which the term sound as I'm was calling

[00:29:49] pretty much. And, um, but, uh, you know, and blow out what, what, what, uh, that brand of polymer

[00:29:57] film, that is an amazing user sound. And, but it useful for someone like me to explain to someone who

[00:30:03] is outside the industry, you know, this is what a sound designer person does. Of course, right.

[00:30:07] The topic of the, the narrative, the plot or whatever. But yeah, not I am absolutely

[00:30:14] excited by any filmmaker who wants to, who understands that, you know, just because sound is cheap,

[00:30:20] it doesn't mean that it's, it's not a very powerful, you know, 50% of the experience kind of thing.

[00:30:26] And what filmmakers now as a cinema gore or do you sit in the audience and think is

[00:30:32] a staffty brother, as you mentioned, are there more? Yeah. Uh, yeah, definitely. I mean,

[00:30:37] who's using sound, Ryan Kugler using sound pretty well. I think Sophia Coppola thinks about sound

[00:30:42] well. I think, um, it's got to be more than that, right? Yeah, I'm sure. It's his toe,

[00:30:49] trace shalt, uh, triad with shalt, you know, waves. We should, I don't only have a few minutes left,

[00:30:55] but I want to ask because you've worked with these amazing artists, I understand like Travis Scott

[00:30:59] Madonna, even Prince David Bowie. What is something you learned from someone like David Bowie

[00:31:07] that you've carried on? Um, with him probably be nice to be. Be pleasant, you know, uh,

[00:31:16] I thought that because he was your thing. Yeah, I'm charming and even, you know, to us all,

[00:31:23] yeah, I mean to everybody, you know, to everybody you meet, um, even the person who brings you

[00:31:28] have a conversation with them and enrich their lives. And in terms of sound? Oh, right. Well,

[00:31:37] I mean goodness, Madonna scared the hell out of me. I spent two weeks with sitting with her

[00:31:45] and normally, you know, someone would sit in the room with you, but Madonna sits at the mixing desk

[00:31:51] with you, you know, next to you, you know, in your space and is sort of like, how about

[00:31:58] 368 kilohertz? And you're like, what? Oh my God, do you know so much? I'm, you know,

[00:32:02] good for her. So professionally threatened. So, um, yeah, I think what, what I learned from

[00:32:10] those early experiences was that in order to have the creative space to do something really well,

[00:32:17] you need to have the technical aspects locked down so tightly that they are second nature. So,

[00:32:23] so all of that I had some traumatizing experiences where I realized I needed to now go and

[00:32:28] stay up very late for a number of weeks and learn some stuff that I didn't know. Well,

[00:32:33] that's how it's done. You need your 10,000 hours or whatever it's done. Yeah, well,

[00:32:38] maybe more. We're more. Mr. Brent, thank you so much for taking your time with me. And thank you

[00:32:44] for you really made incredible cinematic experiences for me this year. And I really appreciate it.

[00:32:52] I'll carry them with me. You're seeing the so lovely talk and thank you. Thank you. Yeah,

[00:32:57] very lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much to Johnny Burn, sound designer, supervising sound

[00:33:04] editor, and re-recording mixer on the zone of interest, poor things, and so many other films.

[00:33:10] And thank you so much for listening. Please subscribe to pop culture confidential wherever you get

[00:33:16] your podcasts. Follow me on x and Instagram at Christina Biro BIRRO. Pop culture confidential is a

[00:33:25] part of the Evergreen podcast network. See you next time. Don't you go back to a pro now. I'm a

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[00:34:05] us on our website, Gen X grown-up.com. All right, I think that was good enough. I hope so, man.

[00:34:12] I'm tired. Who listens to a promo on a podcast and then goes and listen to a different podcast.