The Psychology of Bullying: How It Shapes the People We Become

[00:00:00] You all listening to the Quint's podcast.

[00:00:12] You know how they say, sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt

[00:00:17] me?

[00:00:18] We all know that's not true.

[00:00:20] Words can hurt and they may not break bones but they can break spirits.

[00:00:25] You know sometimes I think back to my school days, the kids who got bullied and picked

[00:00:30] on and even the kids who did the bullying and I wonder about their lives now as adults.

[00:00:37] I wonder if the stick stones and words have left impressions on the people they've

[00:00:42] become, the way in which they interact with others at work, on dates, in social settings,

[00:00:48] perhaps you're one of them and you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:00:52] Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Not Fine Thanks.

[00:00:56] The everyday mental health podcast where we discuss things that you may and those around

[00:01:01] us experience but don't always talk about, I'm your host Anushka.

[00:01:05] Hey whats up how are you?

[00:01:08] What is so stressful ya?

[00:01:09] Man I feel like I'm wasting my youth.

[00:01:11] She like a just can't sustain relationship.

[00:01:16] Not fine, thanks.

[00:01:19] On this podcast I usually have a couple of people come join me in the studio here at

[00:01:24] the Quint and we have a conversation about this subject of the week.

[00:01:28] We've talked about body image issues, burnout, social media, climate anxiety but this week

[00:01:34] we're doing things a little differently.

[00:01:37] On this week's episode I spoke to two young professionals in their 20s and I recorded

[00:01:41] with them separately.

[00:01:42] Arifah, a 26 year old who works in the social sector was bullied growing up and M he doesn't

[00:01:49] want to be named is a 23 year old sports journalist who admits to having bullied other kids

[00:01:55] when he was in school.

[00:01:57] Both these people have self reflected since then and have come a long way in their journeys.

[00:02:03] In the second part of the podcast I will be speaking to Ipsar James, psychologist who

[00:02:08] shares their insights into the matter so do stick around for that as well.

[00:02:12] Hi Arifah, thank you so much for joining me today.

[00:02:28] So to begin with can you tell me a bit about your experience with bullying when you were

[00:02:32] younger?

[00:02:33] How did it manifest for you?

[00:02:35] So for me the bullying that happened was more on an emotional front.

[00:02:40] There was no violence per se, right?

[00:02:43] It was in physical.

[00:02:44] It really happened during junior college that was grade 11 and 12.

[00:02:51] And what happened was just a lot of I would say elite group of people just sort of finding

[00:02:59] this one person who they can target because I never really spoke.

[00:03:03] I used to be in my shell and I liked it.

[00:03:06] It was a sort of choice that I was doing it but it was taken as okay this is a person

[00:03:13] that you know we can talk anything about and say anything to her and she probably won't

[00:03:19] say much back and that's cool because we can be as insensitive as we want to be and

[00:03:26] she really won't retaliate.

[00:03:28] A lot of what happened was around the fact that I used to be termed as oh she's a slut.

[00:03:37] She sleeps around with a guy in the school and like in front of me like if I mean they know

[00:03:41] that I can hear what they're saying or I know they're just doing towards me and literally

[00:03:47] like shunning me out.

[00:03:49] There was just a lot of anxiety there was a lot of I want to get out of here.

[00:03:54] Every time I entered college it just felt extremely unsafe and I couldn't wait to leave

[00:04:01] because I knew that people are just looking at me and judging me and I just didn't feel

[00:04:08] very safe there.

[00:04:10] How do you think the experience has shaped the person you are today?

[00:04:14] There was definitely a lot of self hate right and what happened was that I was anyway

[00:04:23] this is a very insecure person that just added to it and what it did, what it made me feel

[00:04:32] during college was just that I'm not a nice person one.

[00:04:37] Second even though I knew internally for myself that whatever has been spread about me is actually

[00:04:43] not true.

[00:04:44] I started also believing it and sort of sort of it almost felt like I was manifesting

[00:04:48] it. It was more on the lens of getting like I used to try to befriend them because I thought

[00:04:56] that if I do that they'll shut up about me you know and that was very evident I had

[00:05:01] become so desperate for their attention also because even I wanted to be that person who

[00:05:06] fits into that popular group of school right.

[00:05:09] I wanted it, I wanted to be on the other side where probably I think because of how unaware

[00:05:14] I was also at that point of time I would have ended up bullying somebody else along

[00:05:19] with them.

[00:05:20] How is that experience of yours, the remnants of it does it show up in your personality

[00:05:25] as an adult, your relationships, you at work?

[00:05:29] Definitely I think one thing says that I've become and I don't look at this as a bad

[00:05:35] thing right.

[00:05:36] I have become very sensitive towards just certain things right like for example people

[00:05:45] saying that I have put on weight or am fat, that itself just brings back memories of fact

[00:05:55] life and it just gets me very upset.

[00:05:59] I think for me the realization came in only after I got out of that space one.

[00:06:06] Second is that just through the experiences I've had in life I have become a very self-aware

[00:06:11] and reflective person.

[00:06:13] So now I'm at a stage where I can actually think about some of the thoughts that I have

[00:06:18] and I can get to why am I having those thoughts and more often than not even through therapy

[00:06:23] I've realized that part of my life, 3-11 and 12 had a significant impact in how I am

[00:06:32] as a person today and I also chose to be as a person today.

[00:06:35] I used to be an extremely emotional person to an extent where I could not manage my emotions

[00:06:40] and I did give a reaction because I retaliate and that is something that I'm working on right

[00:06:47] that part of me is something that I'm working on because I know there's a better way

[00:06:50] to also address these situations.

[00:06:54] What I'm trying to also do is drive from a lot of awareness of the fact that people

[00:06:59] don't know better and that is true.

[00:07:03] There may be 10 other things that I don't know better often, I don't even know that

[00:07:07] I'm doing something that could be harm in someone else or it could hurt somebody else but

[00:07:11] I'm doing it because I don't know it for the longest time and I think I would still say

[00:07:16] that I don't even think they knew that what they were doing was bullying.

[00:07:21] I still feel like people don't realize that they're bullying other people primarily because

[00:07:27] they look at it as, hey I'm being cool or yeah it's just a joke get over it or why you

[00:07:33] are so sensitive about these things.

[00:07:35] This also applies to family members right?

[00:07:38] I don't think they even think of it as bullying or for them it's just like passing small

[00:07:44] talk or you know talking about your weight or your hair or just pointing out stuff about

[00:07:49] you.

[00:07:50] They don't even think of it as a negative thing to them it's just oh we're making conversation.

[00:07:56] Yeah and it comes out of very, it sounds very weird but they say that it comes out from

[00:08:02] an intent of care right?

[00:08:05] That hey I just are your fat and I'm just like how is that caring for me?

[00:08:10] If you care for me then you say hey I say you put on weight that's concerning what

[00:08:15] are you doing to take care of yourself?

[00:08:18] That's a different thing altogether right?

[00:08:20] But if you're just coming and telling me I'm fat or am having hair for, I know those things

[00:08:25] about myself.

[00:08:26] You're just re-iterating facts.

[00:08:29] You're not doing anything to help me out for and this is something I have to tell my

[00:08:33] students a lot that every time you want to crack a joke which is directed towards somebody

[00:08:39] right?

[00:08:40] Stop and think about if the same joke was said to you how would you feel?

[00:08:46] Is that going to cause sort any sort of triggers or any sort of doubts about how you are as

[00:08:50] a person?

[00:08:51] Is that going to make you feel bad?

[00:08:53] And if the answer to that is yes then you shut up.

[00:08:55] You don't crack that joke right?

[00:08:59] And more often than not they have realized that after they've acted care he should be

[00:09:03] it up which is also a good thing right?

[00:09:07] And it comes with practice right?

[00:09:08] There are so many times that I have also said things to my friends that I realize now

[00:09:13] that I was also in a way bullying them and I never realized it.

[00:09:19] I realize it now and I've gone back and apologized because I'm just like I'm sorry I said these

[00:09:24] things to you and I have no idea how they would have made you feel.

[00:09:27] What whatever I said, how would that have validated some of your worst insecurities and fears

[00:09:32] about yourself?

[00:09:34] And I know for a fact that it's not something that is going to change in a day or in two days.

[00:09:39] It is a long term process.

[00:09:43] M.Story also has a similar start.

[00:09:55] He says that being the new kid in school and being picked on by others led him to becoming

[00:10:00] a bully himself.

[00:10:04] Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood?

[00:10:07] Are there moments or incidents that you can kind of trace back to being the reason or cause

[00:10:12] for you becoming a bully?

[00:10:14] Yeah so I think since we were from an army background every two years going to a new

[00:10:19] school was already a little more scary to say because at that point I was always an

[00:10:24] introvert from the start.

[00:10:26] So over time when you keep changing schools that whole perception becomes even more tougher

[00:10:32] because you are like even more people to deal with than a normal like a normal child would

[00:10:38] have to.

[00:10:39] So when I actually came into my 9th, 10th, 11th, I think those were the years where I got

[00:10:44] to see both sides of the whole term of bullying as such.

[00:10:48] So in 9th and 10th I think even though there were friends in your class and there were

[00:10:54] different people and you are all from the same crowd as such.

[00:10:57] So it was a very different experience for me because I had come like new into the school

[00:11:03] at the wrong side of it was just beginning then like the memes and all that become a big

[00:11:08] thing to talk about.

[00:11:09] So that had become a big talking point in our school and everyone had recognized me and

[00:11:14] associated with me with that meme and that obviously affected me to a point because as

[00:11:20] you know that people would obviously at that age they would have seen you in a different

[00:11:24] light and see associated you with that thing.

[00:11:27] So that obviously pushed me away from people and I did not want to socialize much neither

[00:11:33] did I have the will to come to school as much.

[00:11:36] You mentioned just now that you were on both sides of bullying can you tell me a little

[00:11:40] bit about how this experience of yours led you to the other side, how did this happen?

[00:11:47] So I think when we go to our 11th standard there is a big shuffle in terms of having to

[00:11:54] opt for another school versus staying in the same school.

[00:11:57] So during that time I think that was a little like as I saw it at that time it was a saving

[00:12:02] grace of sorts because then people would forget and then the crowd would change.

[00:12:06] So when we reach that stage I think I would have had that kind of that vengeance mindset

[00:12:13] in me that if it happened to me I think now I've reached that phase where I should make

[00:12:18] someone else feel that way or something.

[00:12:20] So for example I remember in the bus in the V-Store all come back by bus and travel by bus so

[00:12:26] there used to be juniors there and there were a few of them who were very into like how

[00:12:32] do you put it?

[00:12:33] There were more into their studio students who just wanted to come sit and go and we obviously

[00:12:38] did not like that and we wanted to play around and for me it meant even more I think

[00:12:43] because I was like I used to be that like a year or two back and I had to go through all

[00:12:48] that so I wanted a chance to I think kind of feel better about it.

[00:12:53] So there were instances where even I was I ended up bullying the juniors later on and

[00:12:58] then I think one of them eventually went and told the principal and there's a big deal

[00:13:03] about how did you bully other kids what did you do?

[00:13:07] Okay so for I think for starters it was just mocking someone it started off with like say

[00:13:13] fat shaming a body shaming someone.

[00:13:16] Someone who was a little more studious and like trying to just play around with them

[00:13:19] like very play like not physical bullying as such but like playfully trying to make the

[00:13:26] other person annoyed or try to get to their head and when it came to mental bullying I

[00:13:32] think it would just be like picking on things like they wouldn't want to be picked about

[00:13:36] like a studious guy not being very athletic so trying to find that aspect saying that you

[00:13:42] don't do you don't run enough you just eat or something or that or something which

[00:13:46] would affect them.

[00:13:47] These were the kind of things that I don't think we realized the importance of what we

[00:13:52] are saying at that point but that one of the time I don't think I was thinking right neither

[00:13:57] did I want to do the right thing I just wanted to do what made me feel better at that

[00:14:03] so when you say it made you feel better how did picking on other kids make you feel

[00:14:07] better did you you know did it make you feel more in control or because you felt like

[00:14:13] you had some sort of a power over others or were you just ending.

[00:14:17] I think a lot of it has to do with like the fact like when it first happens to you you

[00:14:23] feel very helpless and you feel very powerless with the whole factor that oh I can't do anything

[00:14:28] neither can I like influence anyone into like being associated with me so I felt that

[00:14:35] when I got the chance to do it it would have so many more aspects like firstly I would

[00:14:38] get that whole factor of being powerful and actually showing my dominance which I never

[00:14:44] got a chance to do and secondly I thought like if you are doing that there are other people

[00:14:49] joining in with you so you eventually get a chance to have a certain clan as you say

[00:14:54] like Acha Vita we are the people who can go and bully others types so that would form

[00:14:59] a bond and that would help you socialize and get friends that way so at that point of

[00:15:04] time there was no thinking as such as to why I was doing it but now that I look back

[00:15:08] I realize what was with side of it was I on.

[00:15:12] Right and at that point did you realize what you were doing is bullying like how it's

[00:15:17] affected the other kids or do you think of it as just harmless fun.

[00:15:21] See firstly when I was doing it in this like when I just realized that I can be this person

[00:15:27] I was I think I had a certain time where I was just enjoying it because I was like bro

[00:15:31] I've suffered a lot and I've seen the other side a lot so I was thinking to myself and I felt

[00:15:37] that it shouldn't matter because if I have gone through this then how I don't think

[00:15:41] it would be bad for someone else to feel the way I felt.

[00:15:44] So at that point of time I did not think it's a big deal because you never you never actually

[00:15:49] realized at that point of time what others will be feeling and you're more about how

[00:15:53] you should feel I think that that selfish aspect was always there.

[00:15:58] How do you come to the point of reflecting on this behavior since you know you've been

[00:16:03] on both sides of it like you said?

[00:16:06] How do you think the experience has shaped the person you are today?

[00:16:11] So firstly when we went to college it's a very different atmosphere compared to school

[00:16:15] because in school you are going at a certain time coming at a certain time you are with

[00:16:19] your parents you live a very other tuitions all that so you're living in a very repetitive

[00:16:25] and a very cyclic life I would say.

[00:16:27] So when you when I went to college I realized that there are so many things to explore

[00:16:30] and there's so much to do and there's so many people to get to know that things like these

[00:16:35] are not going to have any kind of mark on them.

[00:16:39] You are obviously into a new environment and you have a group of friends so you would want

[00:16:42] to get to know them better so you have the normal band which is there but then I realized

[00:16:47] that there is something different that has to be done this time because if I'm in college

[00:16:51] I know in terms of the social aspect it's going to be 10 times more than school and I'm

[00:16:57] going to meet people from different places of the country.

[00:17:01] So I realized this is the opportunity to get to know people and to actually live the life

[00:17:05] without keeping this as an aspect like I never believed that this is going to help my

[00:17:10] growth in the college or this is not going to help me make more friends or be a better

[00:17:15] person or actually live a good life because I knew I'm there only for three years in college

[00:17:20] and if I do such a thing and all it's now is I'm just going to waste my time and the other

[00:17:24] person as well I'm going to make it tougher for them.

[00:17:27] That was a very liberating kind of feeling because after that that aspect didn't exist

[00:17:31] like when I wake up I don't actually think that I would want to do that to someone.

[00:17:36] So it's all about something to push you ahead.

[00:17:39] I don't think you I feel like ever pulling anyone down nor myself.

[00:17:44] Just lastly so the kids you know that you used to bully did you meet them?

[00:17:49] You mentioned at the beginning but you kind of talk about it later at any point.

[00:17:55] Yeah so I think I met this the person who I bullied I think when I was in college and

[00:18:01] I'd come back and I met him somewhere I think when we were playing some sports, some

[00:18:05] in the sports complex.

[00:18:07] So we were talking normally and then it was it felt nice to see that even he had gone

[00:18:12] through his college life and he had become he had changed a lot and then we just spoken

[00:18:17] about how times used to be and we just laughed about it and we and even I told him keep

[00:18:22] row you remember this and I apologize for that and I actually felt bad that that was me not

[00:18:28] a very long time ago.

[00:18:30] So I spoke to him and I like discussed about whatever happened and then he also was very

[00:18:36] like okay it was long back now we are living another life and we have so much on our

[00:18:41] plate now and in the next few years that all of this will not mean this won't be very important.

[00:18:47] So we had a normal discussion we moved on obviously and thankfully the guy realized it

[00:18:54] the way I did and so now that I look back on the same people like who are there I look

[00:18:59] now I've still met them and all and now it's like I look back and I think about how they

[00:19:05] were that time and how they are now and I like to see that I've made like hundred times

[00:19:11] progress of those all the people who are involved back then.

[00:19:14] So I'm happy with where life has taken us now but at that point of time certainly it was

[00:19:19] a very hard pill to digest I think.

[00:19:35] Okay, hi Absa could you just you know just going a little bit deeper into the psyche of

[00:19:45] a bully why do you think people bully what are the different factors that kind of contribute

[00:19:51] to making a bully do you think from a psychological point of view.

[00:19:56] Hi Anasuka so one thing that is usually very prominently seen is that a bully is also

[00:20:03] a person who's bullied right so let's say I'll give you a very simple example let's

[00:20:09] say I am around adults yeah and these adults are obviously people in power and they are

[00:20:17] kind of controlling my life and they're using that power against me.

[00:20:21] So now what I'm understanding is that violence gets me my way yeah now that can be emotional

[00:20:27] violence at I am first hand experiencing or I'm seeing let's say it on media and stuff

[00:20:32] it can be physical violence that I'm experiencing and then in order to get my way outside in the

[00:20:38] world I end up bullying.

[00:20:42] You can also say that to a certain extent that people tend to bully because of the fact

[00:20:50] that they already have low self-esteem and having that power over somebody's lives gives

[00:20:55] them a boost of self-esteem as well this is kind of a muddled you know very like

[00:21:02] the sad space to be in like you know it's like a chain almost like a domino effect somebody

[00:21:08] is being bullied and they are bullying and then not they are bullying other people and those

[00:21:12] other bullies are bullying other people it's kind of like that.

[00:21:17] And so if you just talk about bullying in schools or you know among children a lot of

[00:21:23] the times people may not even realize what they're doing is bullying you know a lot of

[00:21:28] the times people may think oh this is just in good fun or we're just you know this is

[00:21:32] just banter or we're just doing this and just but and like to another person who they're

[00:21:38] doing it too it may have a very profound impact so how does a person recognize if they are

[00:21:45] you know bullying or where you kind of draw the line I'm drawing something yeah I think

[00:21:54] a lot of it has to look into the kind of relationship that you have with that person right so

[00:22:00] let's say you and I are friends and I can pull your leg in that would not be considered bullying

[00:22:05] because that is the kind of relationship that we have a little bit of leg bullying and fun

[00:22:10] is allowed. But let's see if I am a person I'm clearly a person in part yeah and I'm using

[00:22:17] that power against you and you're not okay with like it doesn't have to be just you know

[00:22:23] verbalization or the fact that what you're doing is not okay at times it can be a lot of body language.

[00:22:28] If I am let's say a wording eye contact or when you're coming my way I am taking you to the

[00:22:33] route you know or I'm hiding behind people or I'm not turning up to class you know I'm coming home

[00:22:40] with bruises I'm coming home with let's say copies being torn apart or my copy is being stolen

[00:22:48] or my stuff goes missing all of this is bullying which is causing not just you know like physical

[00:22:56] harm but also psychological harm in that sense yeah yeah so just going from there what is the

[00:23:03] psychological impact of bullying on a person who has been bullied especially you know someone who's

[00:23:08] been bullied in their childhood how does that manifest in their adulthood I think the biggest

[00:23:15] thing that one can see is that their self-esteem would be quite bad to be honest like the

[00:23:22] relationship that they have with themselves is extremely ruptured because obviously when you grow

[00:23:27] up one thing that you need to understand that in case you are also a person who bullied people

[00:23:33] because you were bullied there's a guilt that you're carrying from bullying these people

[00:23:37] and also not being able to understand that your actions had such consequences so you have to live

[00:23:41] with that guilt and he can sial with that right which also ruptures your relationship and the

[00:23:46] fact that somebody bullied me anyways ruptured my relationship because in usual bullying a lot of

[00:23:53] people are not able to stand up to the other person right so let's say if I was able to stand up

[00:23:58] to my bully I would definitely have better self-esteem and that's why I'm able to do that other

[00:24:03] that I would say is obviously there would be neurodivergencers right that brain would have done things

[00:24:09] to cope with the kind of environment the hostile environment that they were experiencing so let's

[00:24:15] say in that sense substance use or self-harm depression like I said anxiety other let's say mental

[00:24:23] health concerns that are maybe genetically in your family that get triggered for example

[00:24:29] maybe bipolar or schizophrenia you know just then triggered because of the stressful environment

[00:24:36] that is definitely something to also be looked at but I think one of the major things that

[00:24:41] one has to consider is that just bullying in itself doesn't need to issues

[00:24:46] bullying getting bullied and then not able to share it with an adult or a safe space

[00:24:53] and holding you know having to go through those feelings and holding on to those feelings

[00:24:57] is what actually causes the issue yeah right and that really brings me to my next question which

[00:25:04] is how do you cope with you know if you've been bullied if it's having an impact on you how do

[00:25:10] you cope with that as kids and also like if you are someone an adult who you know lives with

[00:25:16] that trauma of having been bullied as a child I think the best way to look at it would be the

[00:25:23] four major actually five majors coping max that you can say a nervous system has one is good old fight

[00:25:30] right so either I can take that anger that I have that I the experience because of the bullying

[00:25:37] either I can take it on to the person who is actually bullying me or I can reverse it on myself

[00:25:42] usually leading to self harm right or substance issues obviously children will start to cope

[00:25:48] and you can say quote unquote what is considered not healthy ways I would say there is no right or

[00:25:54] wrong way to cope whatever gets you through you know the situation is good enough in my experience

[00:25:59] then the other thing would be flight so we've done five next would be flight where either you are

[00:26:05] avoiding school you're avoiding people you're losing friends that is one way to go I am let's say

[00:26:12] I can also look into freeze which is where I might dissociate from my body or my mind I'm living

[00:26:19] in a fantasy world according to my shell as what people call it or I've checked out from the present

[00:26:25] right because the present is too bad to deal with uh fourth would what would be what we consider

[00:26:32] forning where I am you know either I join the bully and start bullying or I tend to take care of

[00:26:40] their emotions or I befriend them you know tend or befriend in a usual common person language

[00:26:47] and the last is find where I actually find a safe space to talk about it so these are the five

[00:26:54] major ways that we can cope again again there are substances there are also let's say hobbies and stuff

[00:27:00] that you can cope with so yeah major majorly this right but this would be um you know a person who

[00:27:10] is being bullied right like does this also apply to people who have been bullied in the past and

[00:27:16] have like remnants of you know that in their um in the way in which they function

[00:27:27] I think one thing that we really need to understand is how well has this person reconciled with the

[00:27:32] fact that they either were bullied or were bullied or both because both can also exist right

[00:27:38] uh a lot of times again based on the kind of social support system that I have

[00:27:45] you know let's say if I have a judgey support system obviously I will then harbor those feelings

[00:27:50] if I have a supportive support system then I would probably be able to alleviate that

[00:27:54] distress that I'm feeling by talking to these people I can also go and read upon myself or you

[00:28:00] know retrospectively uh like reflect on what was happening back then and give it context because

[00:28:07] you would see a lot of times a lot of judgment that we either hold for self or others is context less

[00:28:15] so

[00:28:23] thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Not Fine Thanks I'll be back next week

[00:28:28] with two more guests and we're talking about relationships have you ever noticed how your

[00:28:34] relationship with your parents when you were growing up the little things impact your adult

[00:28:40] relationships well then the next episode is for you so do tune in