Kastur: In Gandhi’s Shadow, His Guiding Light – Part 6

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to this very special All-Indian's Matter In-Depth series, Kastur, In Gandhis Shadow,

[00:00:18] His Guiding Light on Kasturva, The Wife of the Mahatma. I am Ashraf Engineer. Kasturva

[00:00:23] as we have seen was an extraordinary woman, someone who drove Mahatma Gandhi to become

[00:00:28] what he did. In the concluding part of this series, we will try to understand her better.

[00:00:33] We are in conversation with Tushar Gandhi, Great-Ransom of the Mahatma and author a peace activist

[00:00:38] and someone who is striving to keep Gandhi relevant in today's India. Tushar is also writing

[00:00:43] a book on Kasturva called Kastur Nidairi. Welcome Tushar.

[00:00:47] Thank you Ashraf. Tushar Gandhi's family life was turbulent, especially

[00:00:51] his relationship with his sons. Hari Lal was estranged and became an alcoholic. Manilaal

[00:00:55] wanted to marry a Muslim woman, but Gandhi forbade it. How did Kasturva handle all this

[00:01:01] and would she have agreed to Manilaal marrying a Muslim?

[00:01:04] I consider that to be Bapu's Himalayan Blender. The refusal to allow the freedom of choice

[00:01:13] to his own son in a question that hardly mattered to Bapu. He had no business in it. As a

[00:01:21] grown-up, it was Manilaal's decision to marry for love and the religion of his partner.

[00:01:28] If it had any consideration, it was only to Manilaal. It shouldn't have been to anybody

[00:01:32] else. And I believe the way Bapu responded was uncalled for. And if Bapu has to be criticized

[00:01:40] for anything, I would loudly criticize him for what he did in that situation, forbidding

[00:01:48] Manilaal to marry. I am very happy because that opened the way for my grandmother to

[00:01:55] marry Manilaal Gandhi and that is that ensured that I am born.

[00:02:01] I was going to remind listeners that Manilaal is your grandfather. Was your grandfather?

[00:02:06] Yes, and so I am very happy about it because nobody could have been a better partner

[00:02:12] than my grandmother for my grandfather. But an injustice was done to both Manilaal and the woman

[00:02:22] he loved, who he kept as a friend for the rest of his life when my grandmother also accepted

[00:02:30] her as a sister. And even after my grandfather's passing, the two of them remained the best

[00:02:37] of friends, untitled. But I cannot justify Bapu's actions in this. As I said, if there was

[00:02:47] something for which I would criticize Bapu, it was his decision. And more than his decision,

[00:02:53] he made an excuse of the trauma it would cause to Bha. In writing to my grandfather and

[00:03:01] saying, you know, I don't have my blessings and I think you should not do that. He said,

[00:03:05] think of your mother. She will not be able to survive this trauma. And for her sake, you must

[00:03:13] give them a sacrifice which was wrong of him. He did not consult Bha. He did not consult Bha.

[00:03:21] He did not brief her about this before using her as an excuse to almost blackmail Manilaal

[00:03:28] into changing his decision. Of course, it was my grandfather's weakness also that he succumbed

[00:03:34] to his father. That he should have said to help with you, I love this woman and I'll marry her.

[00:03:40] And if you want me to want to disown me, disown me, I don't care. But so that was a fault of my

[00:03:48] grandfather also but having said all this again, I'm thankful that neither put their foot down

[00:03:54] and my grandmother became my grandmother. But do you think Kastur Bha would have agreed or she

[00:03:59] would also have disagreed? I think Bha would have been hurt. I think Bha would have raised the voice

[00:04:05] against it because she was orthodox. But you must remember that even after Harilal converted to

[00:04:13] Islam, after the initial heart-rending appeal she made to Harilal and to the Muslim community in

[00:04:21] general. She forgave Harilal and was ready to accept him back into the fold as her son. And she

[00:04:29] has written about it, she said no matter how hurt I am by your decision you will always remain

[00:04:37] being my son. And I will always love you for that. And so I think given in the case of Manilaal

[00:04:45] she may have been hurt. She may have taken time to accept the relationship but eventually she would

[00:04:53] have. So I think Bha was not justified in using her as an excuse to forbid Manilaal from marrying

[00:05:01] the woman of his choice. But thank God for it. There's a point of view that Kastur Bha was simply

[00:05:07] someone who had no choice but to go along with whatever has been decided. So if he decides to shift

[00:05:12] home repeatedly she has to go along. If he decides to go celibate she has no choice.

[00:05:18] If he decides to become a freedom fighter she has to play along. Do you buy this argument?

[00:05:25] First part of the question is second part given a choice. Do you think she'd have preferred a

[00:05:30] life less ordinary? To an extent I buy the argument because the times that time and the culture and

[00:05:39] tradition wives had a predefined role to play. Patipar Meshwar was still the dominant

[00:05:48] influence and accepted by Sveta. I just want to remind viewers we are talking about the

[00:05:53] mid to late 1800s. Yeah. And so it's not surprising that Bha to a certain extent was resigned

[00:06:02] to her fate. But at many points when she thought that Bha was actually going to go astray

[00:06:11] she becomes the studying influence on him brings him back and when he telling period was in the 20s

[00:06:18] when Bha was suffering from severe depression and breakdown because he was at Louza and he didn't

[00:06:25] know what was happening. He didn't know the way forward he was ill. He was critically ill very weak

[00:06:34] and suffering from depression he used to call meetings and dictate his final will to people saying

[00:06:42] I'm not surviving, I'm going to die. And that time Bha was the one who nurtured him back to help.

[00:06:51] Both physically and mentally showed him the way forward so they gave him an escape route.

[00:07:00] Bha was advised milk because he was very physically weakened and he needed a surgery for

[00:07:06] fistula and surgeons said I can't operate on you in the condition you are in you won't survive.

[00:07:13] So I need you to build up your health and the only way you can do it is start consuming dairy

[00:07:21] and Bha who had stopped consuming dairy. He said no I can't I have taken a pledge against dairy

[00:07:27] I won't accept it. The pledge was against the kind of inhuman treatment of cows and buffaloes

[00:07:37] indulged in the dairy producers and Bha who had sort of been revolted by that and he said no I

[00:07:45] won't use that. So bar steps in he says your pledge is against milk from cows and buffaloes

[00:07:52] but you haven't pledged against the milk of a goat and especially if we rear the goat in an

[00:07:59] ethical manner in a non exploitative manner you should not have a problem with consuming that milk

[00:08:07] and Bha who said maybe I'll consider this but I'll think about it.

[00:08:12] And he finally accepts that argument but throughout his life he keeps

[00:08:18] referring to it as a compromise with his ideals but that compromises also

[00:08:27] he's convinced to do that compromise by the wisdom of Bha who doesn't say oh my father my husband

[00:08:34] you are my pati perme shwar your agnea is final this that she did no

[00:08:40] this is your pledge no this is your way out. Accept it. Practical be practical so she is

[00:08:49] strong in her will and she is what we call street smart practical in her practices

[00:08:56] and she provides these kind of via medias for him when he's also in relationships

[00:09:03] when there are disagreements with associates and she steps in to you know

[00:09:09] smooth things over with people. If we witness that with parallel layers. parallel layers

[00:09:15] mother with others also with associates political associates with the English the colonial

[00:09:22] administration also she sits in and says no why why should we confront let's find a media

[00:09:29] via media. How different do you think Gandhi's life would have been had it not been for Kastur

[00:09:35] but had he not met in married Kastur? I don't know it's a very hypothetical question I don't know if

[00:09:42] Bapu's will would have forged another Kasturba out of somebody else or would Bapu have remained

[00:09:50] Mohan that's all his life. I don't know it's very difficult to understand but what is undeniable

[00:09:58] is that it was Bha who kept Mohan on the path to becoming the Mahatma. It was Bha's influence

[00:10:09] that kept him firmly on that path without any wavering from it. It was Kastur who was holding

[00:10:18] the hand whenever the feet threatened to go astray. Bha Bha was the and without Bha's influence

[00:10:28] Mohan thus would not have evolved into the versions of him that we saw publicly. That was because of

[00:10:36] Bha that was definitely because of Bha I don't know if he would have still become that without Bha

[00:10:43] but now that is hypothetical the reality is Bha was there and Bha was there throughout every

[00:10:51] critical movement of their lives she was the setting influence. Would the freedom movement have

[00:10:57] been different without her? Definitely definitely it would have been different definitely it

[00:11:04] would have been easy for Bha Bhu to convince the women raised in traditional orthodox families

[00:11:13] to take to the streets if it hadn't been for Bha taking to the streets on her own

[00:11:19] and sending out a message that I can do it I'm doing it why don't you.

[00:11:25] The freedom movement and to a large extent the Namak Satyagrahan, the Quitt India movement

[00:11:34] owe their success to the active participation of the women in those two Satyagras

[00:11:40] because that kept the Satyagras firmly on the path of nonviolence you see the non-cooperation movement

[00:11:48] before that it very easily derailed into violence because women were absent from that Satyagra

[00:11:57] but you look at Namak Satyagra you look at the Quitt India movement

[00:12:01] the women were equal partners in both the movements and the both the movements

[00:12:08] ran their course and kept to the ideal of nonviolence in the Satyagra unflinchingly

[00:12:17] and if you study the prison records of that thing you will realize that women were equal in number

[00:12:26] to the men who were imprisoned as Satyagrahan. Okay not something that's really talked about a lot.

[00:12:30] Yes and so the Satyagra also turned into a movement of women's emancipation

[00:12:39] it was the Satyagrahan who then emerged as the feminist early Indian feminists

[00:12:48] who talked about female independence who talked about equality for the genders who established

[00:12:56] their role as the leaders of the communities and the movements and things

[00:13:03] and in independent India they were prepared to take their places. You see the number of cabinet ministers,

[00:13:10] the number of governors, the number of administrators who were ready prepared at the time of independence

[00:13:18] to take on the responsibilities of independent India and you will realize that it was the Satyagra

[00:13:25] movement that prepared the women of that time to take on the role of administering independent

[00:13:34] India and that is where we had a qualified caterer of women emancipated women who stepped out

[00:13:44] till then confined to the family roles and assumed the responsibility of the nation. And that is

[00:13:52] due to the role Kasturbha played during the Satyagrahan. She became the example for women

[00:14:00] to break the fetters of tradition orthodoxy and become responsible components of society of that.

[00:14:10] And it was a revolutionary step and by did it without any dramatic public gestures

[00:14:18] just by simple day-to-day practice of what she believed in

[00:14:24] without any drama or tomasha, without any hysterical outbursts or things.

[00:14:32] Just normal ordinary actions but continuous actions, perseverance.

[00:14:41] And that is where the women of India were also inspired.

[00:14:46] If Bapu was the father of the nation but definitely is the mother of the modern Indian nation.

[00:14:53] So Chaudhary, I want to not talk about the final stage of their togetherness and this is during

[00:14:58] their imprisonment at the Agakhan Palace. That imprisonment actually served as possibly one of

[00:15:04] the longest times that they would have had spent continuously together. I am not referring to their days

[00:15:11] in South Africa for example but definitely after they returned to India.

[00:15:15] I want to talk specifically about the time when Gandhi undertook yet another fast. This is

[00:15:22] February 10, 1943 and Kasurba was at his side like a rock. Gandhi's condition worsened very

[00:15:30] quickly but he eventually recovered. However, Kasurba's health worsened. What happened after that?

[00:15:38] See, we must also understand that the final imprisonment again was because of

[00:15:45] Bhajone actions not to give big be a caregiver to Bapu. She was arrested because she

[00:15:51] defied the prohibitory orders of the colonial administration and addressed Raleigh in the absence

[00:15:58] of Bapu. And she was arrested for that defiance and imprisoned initially in the women's prison

[00:16:06] of the Bombay Central Prison at Bikala. And when her condition worsened over there when she

[00:16:13] fell ill and her condition worsened over there, to avoid the embarrassment of Mrs. Gandhi dying in

[00:16:20] prison. The colonial administration rushed her to the Agha Khan Palace where Bapu was detained.

[00:16:28] Today a lot of people say look, Savarkar was in cellular jail and Bapu was kept in Agha Khan Palace

[00:16:37] so he was a British too. But they failed to realize that Agha Khan Palace was just a name.

[00:16:46] It was actually just three stark barely furnished rooms in that palace that were utilized as

[00:16:53] cells for Bapu and his entire Raj to be detained. The rest of the palace was occupied by British

[00:17:02] officers and military and police to keep a watch and guard the prisoners and isolate them.

[00:17:12] And Bha and Bapu suffered a great tragedy immediately after imprisonment because on 15th August

[00:17:20] 42, barely a fortnight or 10 days after six days after their arrest.

[00:17:27] Now they have decided to pass away in the detention due to a massive cardiac arrest.

[00:17:35] Now they have decided that Bapu was a secretary for 25 years home, he had come to love as his own son

[00:17:42] and Bha had also accepted him as a son and for his passing was a great blow to Bha and Bapu.

[00:17:51] They grieved his passing tremendously. They never recovered from that tragedy,

[00:17:57] it's not that because in a way they felt responsible for his death, he had forsaken his family,

[00:18:05] his son, his wife and behind Bapu felt responsible for the eventual fate

[00:18:14] and then when Bapu went on his fast, although Bha showed a lot of courage and strength in becoming

[00:18:26] Bapu's inspiration because this time the fast took a toll on him very fast and he sank

[00:18:33] and on two occasions at that time the British prepared for his death.

[00:18:38] They even threw open the gates and said okay people are going to die let people see him die.

[00:18:44] The final darshan was there, you don't want to be blamed for having killed him

[00:18:49] so they opened it up and people started coming in they saw Bha standing by Bha Bapu.

[00:18:55] It's very touching scene of the time when he ends his fast, he is reaching a crisis

[00:19:02] he is sinking rapidly and Bha can't take it. Bha has this habit in her life

[00:19:08] that she always worships the Tulsi plant and it's a daily ritual wherever she goes she plants the

[00:19:15] Tulsi and takes care of her like a goddess and every day she will go and water the plant nurture it

[00:19:24] pray to it and that day also when it feels hopeless it feels as if now Bha Bapu's not going to survive

[00:19:32] because he is refused to add fruit or juice to his water for sustenance

[00:19:40] and Bha walks out and goes and stands next to the Tulsi plant she's watering it she's praying to it

[00:19:47] visitors see this tragic figure of the woman resigned to her fate watering the plant worshipping

[00:19:55] it praying to it and then they see Bha Bapu wasting away on his bed

[00:20:01] and they experienced the tragedy of the two people, the tragedy of losing Bha Bapu

[00:20:10] and the tragedy of the woman who is about to lose her husband they graphically see that

[00:20:17] and that is the time when Susheela and I heard asks Bha Bapu isn't it time that you started taking some

[00:20:25] fruit juice in your water and finally Bha Bapu said yes I think now I need that sustenance and so

[00:20:35] an ounce of orange juice is diluted with three ounces of water and fed to Bha Bapu

[00:20:43] and it works as an Alexial it suddenly energizes Bha Bapu when when Bha walks back into the room

[00:20:52] she sees the vitality on her husband's face and she realizes the crisis is over

[00:20:59] and she once again in her mind thanks her goddess for listening to her prayer I don't know

[00:21:06] whether dramatically when she was praying to the Tulsi she had told her take me instead of him

[00:21:15] but something like that happens

[00:21:21] Bha Bapu recovers but past that's it

[00:21:24] okay

[00:21:28] and then she doesn't recover it's one way down the hill from there not

[00:21:34] she has a series of infections pneumonia she has some heart ailments she suffers from a heart attack

[00:21:45] in January 1944 she takes to the bed the British have piled up wood for Bha Bapu's fudent

[00:22:02] and now suddenly it's Bha who's survival isn't out

[00:22:07] in Bha takes to the bed nobody knows it at that time but that's her death bed she's not going to recover

[00:22:19] when the final realization occurs the British allow access to the sons

[00:22:26] goddess and Ramdas start visiting their parents in prison regular but Bha is still feeling lonely

[00:22:37] Manilaal is away in South Africa he can't come it's too far he's too far away

[00:22:43] Bha Bapu ends for him but she pines for her less son the most and by then Harilaal is a complete

[00:22:53] destitute nobody knows about him he doesn't have an address after his conversion to Islam

[00:23:00] and then reconversion to Hinduism he has become a vagabond a destitute an alcoholic nobody knows

[00:23:08] where he is one day he's found committing a you know nuisance of himself under the influence

[00:23:16] of alcohol in one place then somewhere else the only track is the reportage of him of Gandhi's

[00:23:23] sons nuisance in the press and every time that happens it breaks Bha's heart and now when she's

[00:23:31] on her death bed she pines for her less son and she keeps asking for him finally the colonial

[00:23:41] administration relends and decides to join for the in the hunt for Harilaal because they realize

[00:23:48] that they're not going to be able to save Bha and they decide to let her at least die in peace

[00:23:56] and they start looking for

[00:24:06] they start looking for Harilaal he's nowhere to be found it's too far gone

[00:24:10] Bha's condition keeps deteriorating she gets another heart attack

[00:24:22] now there's no hope even Bha's keeping up

[00:24:27] Devdas is desperate there's a new drug penicillin

[00:24:33] he finally convinces the colonial administration to get some penicillin for Bha

[00:24:42] on 20th February Bha Poo is informed that they have managed to procure penicillin for Bha

[00:24:50] that's the only hope but they cannot guarantee that it'll cure her it'll prolong her life at the best

[00:24:57] because the damage is too much too extensive Bha Poo leaves the decision to Devdas but he says look

[00:25:06] once in South Africa when to save her life the doctor wanted to feed her beef broth

[00:25:14] and I asked her she made me promise that I would never allow any forbidden food or medicine

[00:25:24] even if that meant saving her life and at the moment penicillin the origins of penicillin are suspect

[00:25:32] so I cannot because I've promised Bha I cannot allow that but he tells Devdas that the decision is your

[00:25:41] she's your mother my only appeal is that if you can't cure her is it worth sustaining her

[00:25:49] her anguish her suffering for a few days more as you decide miraculously Harilal turns up at the gates

[00:26:02] of the prison that evening he's in a miserable condition he has been on one of his alcoholic

[00:26:10] benjazeekhan and can hardly stand but he turns up at the gates and he finally convinces the

[00:26:19] centuries that he is by and Bha Poo's son and a message is sent in that Harilal is at the gates

[00:26:28] and Bha Poo says bring him in fast but when they see him they shocked and Bha Poo is worried that if

[00:26:35] Bha sees him in this condition it'll have a traumatic effect on her heart and so Harilal is convinced

[00:26:44] to sober up and come back the next morning he does but he's still not completely sober and Bha

[00:26:52] realizes they have a very gentle talk Bha talks to him tries to convince him to come to Bha Poo

[00:27:02] and live with him she tells him this is my end but Bha Poo is your father and he will accept you

[00:27:10] he's always behind for you go back to him Harilal leaves goes back to one of his drinking benches

[00:27:21] Bha is pining away for Bha Hari she the whole of 21st

[00:27:26] she keeps pining for Haril a message is sent out find Haril they can't find him late in the night

[00:27:35] they find him dead drunk and the police in their wisdom field that you know Mrs Gandhi is not going

[00:27:43] to make it and they decide it's best to haul Harilal in his present condition and present him to

[00:27:51] and Harilal in his completely in that alcoholic days he stumbles into Bha's room

[00:27:59] Bha lits out of the whale seeing her her son I think that was the final nail

[00:28:07] Bha will Harilal had to be dragged away from her side

[00:28:19] and on 22nd Bha became critical when Bha Poo was leaving for his evening walk

[00:28:30] he came to Bha to tell her he was just going to step out for a walk and he was going to come back

[00:28:37] and she wanted him to wait for his return Bha holds his hand and doesn't let go

[00:28:46] Bha Poo realizes that this is the end

[00:28:54] can he sit still and he lifts Bha's head rest on his shoulder

[00:29:01] but tells everybody else to go away and he's standing sitting over there in communion with a partner of his life for more than six decades

[00:29:13] as life ends from her

[00:29:18] frankly somebody walks into the room

[00:29:24] discovers that Bha is no more

[00:29:31] and tears roll down Bha Poo's cheek as he realizes his soulmate is darling Kastur has left him forever

[00:29:48] and thus finally Kastur finds her final destination

[00:29:57] the one place from which her husband cannot approve her one ever

[00:30:04] and the nomad comes to rest

[00:30:09] unfortunately an ungrateful nation also decides that's the end of Mrs. Gandhi

[00:30:17] and we don't have to bother anymore but Bha Poo realizes the loss that he has suffered

[00:30:26] and for the rest of the years that he survives he never forgets Bha

[00:30:32] the promise he made to Bha in South Africa that you will live on in my heart

[00:30:39] he proved it to be true Bha continuously lived in his heart to that

[00:30:46] the wood that was gathered by the British to cremate Bha Poo

[00:30:53] and Agatha and Palace was finally used to cremate Bha

[00:30:59] the British came to Bha Poo and said

[00:31:03] you know we can't allow the people to participate in the Bha funeral of Bha

[00:31:08] either her body is carried away

[00:31:11] and we do her funeral in public which you can't attend

[00:31:17] all you do have funeral in the prison grounds which others can't attend

[00:31:23] but he said they said you know if you want we let them allow your sons to participate

[00:31:28] Bha Poo said what applies to the common Indians must also apply to my sons

[00:31:34] the common Indians can't participate in the funeral of Kasturbha then my sons

[00:31:39] also will not participate in her funeral

[00:31:44] finally the British relent and they said okay we will allow 200 people to attend the funeral

[00:31:53] in Bha's funeral is conducted in the same spot where Mahadev Desai was cremated

[00:32:01] Bha Poo refused to move from the spot the entire day of 23rd

[00:32:09] he walks with the body to the cremation spot

[00:32:13] he watches her cremation begin

[00:32:18] he stands vigil for the whole day under the name tree

[00:32:26] watching the flames consume the body of his beloved

[00:32:31] refuses to move from there till the last embers of the fire

[00:32:36] extinguished, consuming Bha's body

[00:32:42] on the Friday morning when the embers of Kooled and the ashes are Kooled

[00:32:48] Devdas and Ramdas go and collect Bha's Asthis from the funeral pyre for immersion

[00:32:57] because Bha Poo has expressed his desire Bha had always wanted her final

[00:33:04] ashes to be immersed in the Thirvani Sangam ital al-Habad

[00:33:09] and so Bha Poo has told his sons that you do the rituals

[00:33:15] when they go to collect the Asthis

[00:33:18] they discover that the green glass bangles at Bha always war on her wrists as a mark of her

[00:33:26] Suhaag have survived the fire intact they find the six bangles intact in her funeral for pire

[00:33:36] and she they carry them back to Bha Poo when Bha Poo said that she was a pious woman she was a

[00:33:43] sati and it is believed that a truly pious woman her bangles will not be destroyed by her

[00:33:50] funeral pyre and this is a proof that Bha was a saint those bangles were preserved for a long time

[00:34:00] some of them broke but some of them are even today preserved at the National Gandhi Museum

[00:34:06] and I know around display in Delhi in Delhi this was the remarkable woman who Kastur Bha was

[00:34:15] and this was the tragedy of her life that neither in life nor in death was she given the due

[00:34:26] acknowledgement of her own greatness her fate was to live in the shadows of a great

[00:34:35] human being who was her partner and she voluntarily merged into him

[00:34:43] Suha Shandrabhu's paid a glowing tribute to Bha it's people who want to read it can find it on

[00:34:53] Google if you if they treat a type Suha Shandrabhu's tribute to Kastur Bha it will come up in which

[00:35:03] he acknowledges her as the mother of the Indian nation and in acknowledges her as being a martyr

[00:35:11] to the freedom cause of freedom on her own in her own rights and also accuses the British of

[00:35:18] actually murdering her in an effort to break the will of Bha Bha. This is Suha Shandrabhu's

[00:35:26] who is estranged from Bha. And still he has sent this homage to Kastur Bha there is an

[00:35:35] acknowledgement of the condolences of the Visrawavevel and his wife Bha Bha Poo in which he writes

[00:35:43] about how Bha Bha was the real force behind his evolution and the true soulmate

[00:35:52] and acknowledges his debt to Bha who voluntarily merged her identity into his first public persona

[00:36:01] allowed him to grow. These are the things that we must remember and I hope this narrative sets history

[00:36:12] right and corrects the injustice that we have done to Bha and we acknowledge Kastur as an important

[00:36:25] freedom fighter Kastur Gokuldas Kapadia as a martyr of the freedom of India

[00:36:34] because Gastur Gokuldas Kapadia was much more important to Indian freedom than Kastur Mohandas

[00:36:43] Gandhi ever was and this is what the distinction between the two that we have to remember recognize

[00:36:52] in honor and I dedicate this talk to my Bha and proud as much as I am proud of the lineage I have

[00:37:03] inherited from my great-grandfather. I am proud of the lineage that I have inherited from my great

[00:37:10] grandmother as you should be. How did Gandhi change after Bha's death? Bha Poo himself has admitted

[00:37:18] that he found himself a drift after Bha. He felt that his anchor, he lost his anchor.

[00:37:28] He felt that in many a times he elicinated that Bha was with him at times of crisis in his life when

[00:37:37] he felt that his ideology was challenged, that his ideals were compromised. When he started

[00:37:46] suspecting himself to be a failure, he has written in his own words that he used to feel the

[00:37:55] presence of Bha sort of stabilizing him, assuring him, sort of making him feel peaceful again.

[00:38:07] That showed the loss he felt about the partner on whom he relied most without doubt because

[00:38:18] at various stages in his life he had outgrown his reliance and acceptance of several people

[00:38:29] but Bha had been the constant in her life, almost from the age of six

[00:38:35] till six decades later when they parted ways forever. And as you said, perhaps even after that

[00:38:42] in spiritual form, because after Brahmacharya the physical relationship had dissolved

[00:38:49] and it had been replaced by an even stronger spiritual relationship,

[00:38:56] a intercourse of souls instead of an intercourse of bodies.

[00:39:02] How would Bha have reacted to independence in the form that it came? I'm referring here to

[00:39:08] partition, the riots that followed etc. I think Bha would have accepted it more practically than

[00:39:15] what Bha, and I think the trauma that Bha, because of the partition and the riots and

[00:39:26] disintegration of the dream that he had seen for his country. And they fact it had on his

[00:39:34] final year, would have been much lessened if Bha was there to put it in its place,

[00:39:41] to explain why these things were happening. And to say that look,

[00:39:47] revolutions hardly happened in a smooth manner, there are always

[00:39:52] eruptions when revolutions. You gave birth to a revolution. Now don't blame yourself

[00:39:59] when the revolution has its effect on the people. She was practical enough to understand that

[00:40:04] Bha, who was too much of an idealist and he could not accept

[00:40:09] that this was a natural corollary to a revolution. He blamed himself.

[00:40:18] He kept accusing himself or for some corruption his own belief and practices.

[00:40:25] And he blamed himself for every transgression that happened after independence.

[00:40:31] Bha would have made him realize that he didn't have to blame himself for everything.

[00:40:37] He wasn't responsible for everything that happened. There were other influences also.

[00:40:44] She would have made it easy for him to accept it. But his tragedy was that that

[00:40:53] influence on him wasn't there at that crucial time in his life.

[00:40:58] What do you think is her legacy? Her legacy is very vague, a shuff. Bapu's legacy is defined.

[00:41:07] Her legacy is the legacy of a shadow which is never away from its subject. Never diminished

[00:41:17] always there, but always silent. I think her legacy is the acceptance that India lacks today.

[00:41:29] Everything of India, everything antagonizes India. Everything is irretent for India.

[00:41:39] Bapu, Bha's legacy would have been to make India understand that there is room for every

[00:41:47] thought, every ideal everybody if we decided to live with acceptance and not antagonism.

[00:41:55] I think India misses that the most today in not having had Bha as a stabilizing influence in their

[00:42:04] lives, in the life of the nation. What have been the conversations you've had about her within

[00:42:10] the family down the years? Most of the conversations have been of one to one interactions of people with Bha.

[00:42:17] I mean your father of course would still remember her. My father remembered her, my elder aunt remembered her.

[00:42:24] My grandmother remembered her a lot because she spent a lot of time. I spent some time in my childhood

[00:42:32] with the other daughters-in-law. I spent time with people who had lived with Bha in the Ashrams.

[00:42:42] So, I sort of had a first hand or second hand impression of Bha who she could have been and I was

[00:42:50] very fortunate that one of Bha's grand daughters, Harilal's youngest daughter Manu.

[00:42:58] I grew up with her and to me she was the personification of Bha because what I heard of Bha

[00:43:07] and then what I saw of Manu Fai Bha. I always used to picture her as Bha if Bha was alive that she would

[00:43:16] be Manu Fai Bha would be Bha and she Manu Fai Bha had this very affectionate habit of calling all

[00:43:23] of us Bha Choo. Whenever we were there, she would never refer to me as Tushar. She would always say Bha Choo

[00:43:31] Abhikar, Bha Choo Bhuk Lagishya, Bha Choo Akar, Bha Choo Take her. I was always Bha Choo to her and I

[00:43:39] think Bha for Bha also if I was there in her lifetime. I would have been Bha Choo.

[00:43:46] When you look back personally on Kastur Bha's life, how do you see her?

[00:43:51] Remarkable. I can't imagine a person like her in her time who even in her silence was so

[00:44:04] so vibrant, so vocal, so inspirational. That was her remarkable personality for me. I envy her because

[00:44:16] I've seen a lot of very strong feminist women but I haven't seen a mixture of feminism and

[00:44:29] strength living on equal power like that I see in Bha. It's it's it's undescribable. For me Bha

[00:44:39] epitomizes the mother like nothing else can ever epitomize the mother. The universal mother,

[00:44:47] I'm not talking about a biological mother but the universal mother, the concept of a mother.

[00:44:54] How do you think Bha would like to be remembered? I think Bha would be satisfied by just

[00:45:00] being acknowledged as the person she was. She wouldn't want any special treatment because

[00:45:06] you never in her life did she aspire for spatial treatment, never did she say I'm the wife of the

[00:45:14] Mahatma so treat me as Mrs Mahatma. She was content to be Mrs Gandhi. She was content to be

[00:45:23] dismissed as the inconsequential partner of a great person. She didn't mind that and I think

[00:45:30] she would be satisfied with just that I think the wrong that has been done is by completely

[00:45:38] forgetting her personality and I am also to be blamed for it as her descendant I have not and

[00:45:45] that is where today I find it. I feel it is my duty. Discovery of Bha that I have made.

[00:45:56] I think it is my duty to take that discovery to the people and present her finally as

[00:46:03] Kastudh Kokuldas Kapadiya. Tushar, last year we recorded a six part series on Mahatma Gandhi

[00:46:09] skilling the conspiracy, the people behind it and why Gandhi is so relevant today. It's only fitting

[00:46:15] then that we put together this series on someone Gandhi described as an indivisible part of himself.

[00:46:22] Like last year has been a privilege thank you for doing this. Thank you, Masha Fai.

[00:46:28] I hope I have been able to convey my devotion to Bha to your listeners and I hope they carry

[00:46:36] a bit of Bha with them for the rest of their lives. That's if that happens I think I'll have achieved

[00:46:42] my objective. Thank you very much once again. To all those listening, keep an eye out for Tushar's book

[00:46:48] on Kasturba titled Kastur Neh Dairi. With this we conclude this six part series on Kasturba Gandhi,

[00:46:54] the Mahatma's wife and her role in India's freedom movement.