No News Is Bad News

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[00:01:11] In the first season of this podcast, we explored the rapid disappearance of America's newspapers.

[00:01:17] The fading of this medium, which dates back to the earliest days of American history

[00:01:23] when founding fathers like Benjamin Franklin were proud publishers of newspapers, can

[00:01:28] be considered more than an issue of technology and changing times rendering one industry

[00:01:34] obsolete.

[00:01:35] There is more to it than that.

[00:01:37] When a newspaper dies, issues that are vital to a community can go uncovered.

[00:01:43] How will you know what the mayor and city council are up to?

[00:01:47] The school board and PTA?

[00:01:49] And much more.

[00:01:50] As information dries up, something called a news desert emerges.

[00:01:57] And as we explained two years ago, news deserts can be correlated to some degree with the

[00:02:03] rise in false information.

[00:02:06] There's another word for this, of course, disinformation.

[00:02:14] I'm Paul Brandes and that's the name of this podcast series, disinformation,

[00:02:19] the co-production of Evergreen Podcasting and Emergent Risk International or ERI,

[00:02:26] a global risk advisory firm.

[00:02:28] I wanted to update this very important topic and for that, I'd like to bring in our guest.

[00:02:34] I'll have her introduce herself.

[00:02:36] So my name is Margo Suska.

[00:02:39] I am an assistant professor of journalism, accountability and democracy at American University.

[00:02:46] She is also the author of a new book, Hedged, which explores how hedge funds and

[00:02:52] private equity firms have taken over newspapers and what happens when they do.

[00:02:58] This is a business and economic story, but as we'll see, it is also a story of how

[00:03:04] citizens in certain communities can wind up with less information about topics and

[00:03:09] issues of importance to their community, which in turn can lead to false narratives,

[00:03:15] again, disinformation.

[00:03:17] So when I became interested in making hedge funds and private equity the focus of my book,

[00:03:25] I had to really learn about hedge funds and private equity as an industry, not just in

[00:03:31] the journalism sector, but as a segment of the American financial market.

[00:03:39] So I did what a lot of scholars and journalists do and I started reading.

[00:03:43] And one of the books that I picked up had chapters with titles like Looking for

[00:03:51] Prey and Learning to Scavenge.

[00:03:55] OK, so I think that gives you a flavor of the type of sector and the type of folks who are drawn

[00:04:07] to the sector of hedge funds and private equity.

[00:04:11] Now, not all hedge funds and not all private equity are drawn to newspapers, but there are

[00:04:18] a core group that were drawn in the late 2000s and in the early 2010s to the newspaper

[00:04:26] marketplace.

[00:04:28] And so when they were sitting around the proverbial, you know, I use this metaphor,

[00:04:33] this proverbial table and chose the newspaper market, I don't think that they were

[00:04:40] thinking about covering the school board meeting better.

[00:04:45] I don't think that they were thinking about covering the sheriff's race better or making

[00:04:50] sure that people in small towns in Illinois or in Connecticut, where I grew up, or Florida,

[00:04:56] where I worked for several years.

[00:04:58] I don't think that they were thinking about creating better journalism.

[00:05:01] They were looking at balance sheets and they were looking at properties, assets.

[00:05:05] They were looking at the advertising revenue that was left and they were looking at it

[00:05:10] as, you know, what they could scavenge and they were looking at what they could extract

[00:05:16] and liquidate from the market.

[00:05:18] And, you know, that's what I've seen.

[00:05:20] And I spent a lot of time looking at hedge funds as an industry and then looking at

[00:05:25] hedge funds and private equity as a sector in the journalism market.

[00:05:29] And I can give you lots of examples and specifics from the documents, you know,

[00:05:34] in the journalism industry specifically.

[00:05:37] Yeah.

[00:05:38] So it's the same philosophy that would be involved if, say, a group of private equity

[00:05:45] guys bought a steel mill or something and decided to, you know, squeeze every last

[00:05:55] dollar out of that that they could.

[00:05:59] But in my view and yours, a newspaper, philosophically, is very different in that

[00:06:06] it has an inherent public trust to serve a community very different than a steel mill,

[00:06:14] say, and yet they didn't really make any distinction when they were looking at the

[00:06:19] targets they were only looking at again.

[00:06:21] You know, how much money can we get out of this?

[00:06:24] Absolutely. I mean, but even that steel mill or nursing homes, which have become

[00:06:29] a target, hospitals have become a target, you know, they're going to look at they're

[00:06:33] going to roll back safety.

[00:06:36] You know, they're going to cut back on personnel, you know?

[00:06:39] And so I think that, you know, we look at it from a very specific point of view,

[00:06:45] which is, you know, journalism is the only profession that is protected by the

[00:06:51] First Amendment.

[00:06:53] And I think that that has a very important role.

[00:06:56] But private equity and hedge funds have been involved with disastrous

[00:07:00] consequences in journalism, but also in many other industries.

[00:07:05] And there have been other authors that have covered that.

[00:07:08] And I think the fact that they arrived in journalism is probably no shock.

[00:07:12] And the fact that they did such tremendous damage is probably also is no

[00:07:18] shock either.

[00:07:20] Now, this podcast deals with the subject of false narratives, in other words,

[00:07:24] disinformation, which is quite different from misinformation, incidentally.

[00:07:29] So as we, you know, discuss that, just keep keeping that in mind.

[00:07:35] And I think you might have answered this question, but you've mentioned that

[00:07:39] private firms have profited from bankruptcies or debt financing.

[00:07:44] But beyond these sort of one-off tactics, do any of them have any serious

[00:07:51] long term strategy to provide serious responsible journalism?

[00:07:56] Do any of them care?

[00:07:57] Or it's just, again, how much money can we get out of this?

[00:08:01] I mean, I can give you an example in Idaho.

[00:08:04] The McClatchy chain owns the Idaho Statesman.

[00:08:07] It is owned by the hedge fund called Chatham Asset Management.

[00:08:12] Last time I checked there had about $10 billion in assets under

[00:08:16] management. It's pretty successful for a hedge fund.

[00:08:20] And the Idaho Statesman, former editor of the Idaho Statesman wanted to buy

[00:08:25] their investigative reporter, Microsoft Excel.

[00:08:29] There are various packages you could buy.

[00:08:31] It'll run you about a hundred bucks if you want to buy it.

[00:08:33] One hundred and fifty bucks.

[00:08:35] You know, to have Microsoft Excel as an investigative

[00:08:40] reporter is basically like having a hammer, you know,

[00:08:43] to be a carpenter and to have a hammer.

[00:08:46] And it was refused.

[00:08:48] Her request was refused.

[00:08:50] So when we think about the long term impacts of an investigative

[00:08:54] reporter, and that was in an election year, that was in a census year,

[00:09:00] an investigative reporter not getting access to Microsoft Excel.

[00:09:06] When it's owned by a hedge fund that has so much money,

[00:09:11] it really speaks to me.

[00:09:13] And it's an anecdote that says this is not a company

[00:09:17] that cares about the long term,

[00:09:21] the long term success of its news reporters.

[00:09:24] It doesn't care about the community that was in Idaho,

[00:09:27] which was the second fastest growing state in in America at that time,

[00:09:31] in the decade prior.

[00:09:33] And I think that this is something that we've seen over and over again

[00:09:37] from hedge fund owned newsrooms and not just hedge fund owned newsrooms,

[00:09:41] but also newsrooms that are in debt to other types of private investment funds.

[00:09:45] That includes Gannett, America's largest chain.

[00:09:49] And they were formerly the gatehouse chain.

[00:09:54] Which was for a time owned by Fortress Investment Group,

[00:09:58] which was a which is a New York City based private

[00:10:02] private equity firm.

[00:10:03] And once the chain went public, Fortress remained a 40 percent

[00:10:09] owned somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 percent of its shares.

[00:10:13] In 2013, the gatehouse chain declared bankruptcy

[00:10:18] and Fortress took one hundred and forty nine million dollar

[00:10:21] dividend payment.

[00:10:23] So again, and this is any, you know, in years that they're laying off reporters,

[00:10:28] they're laying off photojournalists, they're laying off editors,

[00:10:31] but not before they're giving themselves huge payouts.

[00:10:35] And, you know, is it legal?

[00:10:38] Yes, it's legal.

[00:10:40] Nothing that they're doing here is illegal.

[00:10:43] But I think it speaks to your point about

[00:10:46] do these companies care about the long term sustainability

[00:10:49] of journalism in a community?

[00:10:51] And the answer is no.

[00:10:53] But I also think that what my research has shown is that,

[00:10:57] you know, and I meet a lot of people still today at conferences

[00:11:00] and different events that I go to.

[00:11:02] And they'll say to me.

[00:11:04] The business model of journalism changed.

[00:11:07] Margo, the business model of journalism changed.

[00:11:10] And what they're neglecting is any reality

[00:11:14] that as the business model of journalism was changing,

[00:11:18] a lot of hedge funds and private equity were taking a lot of money

[00:11:22] on the way out the door.

[00:11:23] And I think that's what's frustrating is that.

[00:11:28] You know, this this segment of the industry has all been forgotten.

[00:11:33] And I think that they should get more credit for the part.

[00:11:38] You know, the part that they played in the destruction

[00:11:40] of the industry, because it was it was sizable.

[00:11:44] Now, when newspapers disappear,

[00:11:48] what is the electoral impact?

[00:11:51] Is there any kind of correlation between the rise of news deserts

[00:11:57] and things like voter turnout, susceptibility to disinformation?

[00:12:01] In other words, what are all these hedge funds and private equity guys

[00:12:05] connect the dots here in terms of that and disinformation?

[00:12:10] Yeah. Well, it's almost like there's a benefit

[00:12:13] of having an electorate that's less informed and less engaged

[00:12:18] when you consider that some of these firms have their hands

[00:12:22] in so many other industries.

[00:12:25] But I think to your point, there is a growing amount of research

[00:12:29] that when newspapers die and disappear in the communities,

[00:12:33] they're that voters are more apathetic,

[00:12:37] that they are more willing to vote

[00:12:41] for one political party down the,

[00:12:44] you know, more willing to vote for only one party.

[00:12:48] When newspapers disappear, voter apathy increases,

[00:12:53] political polarization increases,

[00:12:56] political corruption increases.

[00:13:00] There is well-documented research.

[00:13:02] And what we're also seeing is the increase

[00:13:06] of the more positive impacts

[00:13:09] of having a strong local newspaper.

[00:13:13] And I think that this is something that I'm encouraged by in places

[00:13:17] where there may still be a family owned newspaper.

[00:13:20] What you're seeing is that it can increase voter participation

[00:13:25] in local elections, including in local court races.

[00:13:30] Last year, researchers at the University of San Diego

[00:13:34] released a study showing that when a nonprofit newsroom fills the void

[00:13:39] left by the disappearance of a newspaper,

[00:13:42] it has the impact of combating political corruption.

[00:13:46] So what what that means is that having a watchdog

[00:13:50] from a newspaper or from a nonprofit

[00:13:54] news outlet and the better funded the nonprofit news outlet,

[00:13:59] the more they're able to fight political corruption,

[00:14:02] the better off that community is.

[00:14:05] So we see that there are there are researchers who have shown

[00:14:08] that there are detrimental effects of not having a newspaper.

[00:14:12] And we also have seen that there are researchers

[00:14:15] who are showing the positive effects of having a more robust

[00:14:20] news system in place.

[00:14:22] But sometimes, depending on the market and certain economic factors,

[00:14:27] those voids can also be filled by what's called pink slime journalism.

[00:14:32] We did a whole episode on this two years ago as well.

[00:14:36] Pink slime journalism is content that appears real

[00:14:40] and is meant to convey authenticity and trust.

[00:14:44] But it's not the man who first coined the term as journalist Ryan Zitkraf.

[00:14:50] One trick that these pink slime sites, which, you know,

[00:14:54] there are now thousands and thousands.

[00:14:56] And at one point in the last couple of years,

[00:14:59] one of the CEOs of one of these companies say that they are now

[00:15:03] the number one producer of local news in the United States.

[00:15:09] One thing they do is they again, they try to resemble things

[00:15:13] that people trust, people trust inherently local newspapers,

[00:15:18] local news sites more than they do a lot of the national media,

[00:15:21] a lot of broadcast media.

[00:15:24] And so they they disguise their information to look like,

[00:15:29] you know, most newspapers that you would pick up off the street

[00:15:32] in your hometown isn't necessarily have a partisan slant.

[00:15:37] They might have like an opinion column, but otherwise they try to

[00:15:41] cover both sides of the story.

[00:15:45] But the thing that pink slime sites do is that they take one side

[00:15:50] and don't disclose it.

[00:15:52] And so you get a lot of bad information produced by these sites,

[00:15:57] a lot of partisan information.

[00:15:58] People just don't know where it's where it's from because,

[00:16:02] you know, the barrier of entry to web publishing is so low these days.

[00:16:07] As Ryan said, pink slime journalism is endemic.

[00:16:11] Professor Suska found this out when she was researching her book.

[00:16:15] The first time that I heard about pink slime,

[00:16:17] I was doing research for the book and it was the summer of 2020.

[00:16:22] And I was interviewing folks in Alabama

[00:16:25] and I interviewed a nurse from Birmingham and she was in her late 50s.

[00:16:29] And she mentioned something called Yellow Hammer News.

[00:16:33] And I remember writing it down at that.

[00:16:35] I'd never heard of Yellow Hammer News before.

[00:16:37] And then I did another interview with a different person from Alabama.

[00:16:41] And that person mentioned Yellow Hammer News.

[00:16:43] And I thought, wow, what is this?

[00:16:45] Not long after is when Columbia Journalism Review had come out

[00:16:49] with its piece about pink slime and Yellow Hammer News was the feature.

[00:16:54] It was kind of the lead of of their their piece on pink slime.

[00:16:59] And I thought, wow, this is, you know, really,

[00:17:02] really interesting and really frightening.

[00:17:05] Frightening in the sense that where real journalism was once produced,

[00:17:09] where residents of a town or a community had access to real,

[00:17:13] authentic information about local issues,

[00:17:17] new platforms were springing up that were not locally produced,

[00:17:21] did not necessarily cover local issues.

[00:17:24] And to those discerning enough to understand what they were being offered,

[00:17:29] ultimately could not trust.

[00:17:32] Perhaps, therefore, only the first part of the phrase

[00:17:35] pink slime journalism is accurate.

[00:17:38] The disinformation that can ensue can be a particularly insidious problem

[00:17:44] in lower income communities and or communities of color.

[00:17:48] Suska explains why.

[00:17:50] Marginalized and minoritized communities have been left out

[00:17:55] of the mainstream news conversation for as long as we've had mainstream news, basically.

[00:18:01] And we need nonprofit news or small independent outlets

[00:18:06] that can reach them because misinformation is reaching them.

[00:18:10] And they're going to be a key voting block in the 2024 election.

[00:18:15] There's no question about that.

[00:18:16] Yeah, I wanted to ask you about the minority issue, which is

[00:18:20] very overlooked and a lot of I'm glad and delighted that you are

[00:18:24] and other people are thinking about it.

[00:18:29] One, tell me how bad that is.

[00:18:34] And again, in terms of disinformation,

[00:18:37] and tell me about that, I mean, connect the dots there if you could.

[00:18:41] Well, I mean, in terms of the disinformation, I think that

[00:18:46] what we're seeing in places like Miami

[00:18:50] and in places, you know, in swing states is

[00:18:54] I think that we are seeing political actors

[00:18:58] openly trying to inflame

[00:19:03] immigrant voters and trying to voters of color

[00:19:07] to try to tell false information

[00:19:11] to them that says that the election of 2020 was stolen.

[00:19:16] And that is they are driven away from mainstream media,

[00:19:22] either because that media never told their story

[00:19:26] or because in the case of the Miami Herald and the El Nuevo Herald,

[00:19:30] it has been cut so much by its hedge fund owner

[00:19:34] that there's nothing left for them to subscribe to.

[00:19:37] I was interviewing someone from Miami recently who said

[00:19:41] lots of people in Miami from the Hispanic community

[00:19:45] are turning away and now going to AM radio.

[00:19:48] Advocates in Florida are saying that the conspiracy

[00:19:52] theories and AM radio are as bad, if not worse,

[00:19:57] than they are on social media.

[00:20:00] So I think that these, you know, everyone is talking about WhatsApp or Facebook.

[00:20:04] But really, AM radio is another site where

[00:20:09] misinformation, disinformation and conspiracy theories are

[00:20:14] rampant and they are reaching immigrant communities.

[00:20:18] And that's not to say that immigrant communities and people of color

[00:20:22] are the only people who are susceptible to those narratives.

[00:20:25] Clearly, that's not at all what I'm saying.

[00:20:28] But when you are not reached by any other media

[00:20:32] because they have left you out of the conversation for generations

[00:20:37] and someone pays attention to you, even when they're paying attention

[00:20:41] to you with total BS, all of a sudden it feels like,

[00:20:47] hey, pretty good.

[00:20:49] And that disinformation may get through.

[00:20:52] And even if it gets through to a half a percent or one percent,

[00:20:57] that is, you know, that's in a swing state.

[00:21:00] That's a big deal. Exactly.

[00:21:04] Let's take a short break here when we come back.

[00:21:07] The world's largest democracy, India, is holding elections.

[00:21:11] We'll soon know whether Prime Minister Narendra Modi

[00:21:15] will win a historic third term.

[00:21:17] This series on disinformation is a co-production of Evergreen Podcasts

[00:21:26] and Emergent Risk International, a global risk advisory firm.

[00:21:30] Emergent Risk International.

[00:21:32] We build intelligent solutions that find opportunities in a world of risk.

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[00:22:28] Welcome back.

[00:22:32] The world's most populous country.

[00:22:34] It's no longer China, by the way.

[00:22:36] It's India is holding elections.

[00:22:38] Prime Minister Narendra Modi has already served two terms.

[00:22:43] And if his party, the BJP, can secure the most seats in India's

[00:22:48] five hundred and forty three seat parliament, he will continue in that position.

[00:22:54] Some Western analysts call Modi an authoritarian

[00:22:57] pointing to things like information blackouts and democratic backsliding.

[00:23:02] And what about alleged disinformation efforts by the Indian government?

[00:23:08] Let's bring in Pearl D'Souza of Emergent Risk International.

[00:23:11] She's senior analyst and regional lead for South Asia.

[00:23:16] The BJP, I know, is quite popular in northern and central India,

[00:23:21] but Modi's authoritarian streak, some say, has drawn a criticism at home.

[00:23:28] Also abroad, he's certainly been criticized for his crackdowns on independent

[00:23:34] journalism, crackdowns on political dissent, Kashmir, and also his

[00:23:41] crackdown on Indian Muslims.

[00:23:44] Tell me about all of that very briefly.

[00:23:48] Absolutely. And a third term for him could actually just

[00:23:51] worsen all of these things further because he'd be able to consolidate

[00:23:55] weak and democratic institutions and processes.

[00:24:00] And we've seen that clampdown on dissenting voices only amplify

[00:24:04] with each term that the BJP has won.

[00:24:07] So, yes, the South and the East are somewhat protected from these sort

[00:24:13] of changes, but that doesn't mean because they're in power

[00:24:17] in the central government, we've seen that dissent for

[00:24:22] that space for dissent shrinking even there.

[00:24:25] So there's a lot of use of controversial laws, including laws

[00:24:29] that are actually used otherwise to curb terrorism and militant activity.

[00:24:33] They're now being used against lawyers, civil rights activists, NGOs.

[00:24:38] A lot of them had to shut down because the environment,

[00:24:42] they tightened financial regulations,

[00:24:46] they've tightened any sort of other support avenues

[00:24:51] that international NGOs or human rights organisations could get.

[00:24:57] Even the media environment is such that if you watch the 9pm news

[00:25:01] without context, you'd believe that Prime Minister Modi is the best

[00:25:05] leader in India or in the world or the world has ever had.

[00:25:09] Even the few balanced journalistic voices have been actually pushed out

[00:25:13] of mainstream media or have had to tone down criticism.

[00:25:17] And all this while the PM has not given a single press confidence

[00:25:20] that he could be questioned by journalists.

[00:25:23] In fact, any journalists that dare to question the government,

[00:25:26] they still exist, but they're either located in remote

[00:25:30] regional organisations or they've been forced to move

[00:25:33] through YouTube, Instagram and other forms of social media.

[00:25:37] Where again with new changes to social media laws,

[00:25:40] the space for them there has also been declining.

[00:25:44] And the government has realised that a lot of this dissent has moved online

[00:25:48] and they're looking for ways to clamp down on these new emerging forms of dissent.

[00:25:55] So a crackdown on independent journalism,

[00:25:58] a crackdown on social media, a crackdown on dissent,

[00:26:04] all in an effort to maintain his grip on power, according to you.

[00:26:10] And that brings us to the issue of mis and disinformation.

[00:26:15] There are two industry associations in India,

[00:26:19] the Editors Guild of India and Digipub, which is a group of news sites in India.

[00:26:24] They complain and tell me what you think.

[00:26:26] They complain that the Indian government has too much power to control the media.

[00:26:32] That's what you appear to be saying as well.

[00:26:35] Does the Indian government have too much power to control the media?

[00:26:40] Well, of course they do.

[00:26:42] They don't have any opposition.

[00:26:45] If you look at how parliamentary proceedings have occurred in the past

[00:26:50] few weeks, you'll see that they managed to get opposition MPs who are already

[00:26:54] quite a few thrown out and then passed legislation that for the strengthens their

[00:26:59] hold over power, apart from that they also have support from big businesses

[00:27:05] because of course a lot of big businesses were bet on the winning horse,

[00:27:10] as they'd say.

[00:27:12] So they're betting on the BJP winning the next elections.

[00:27:16] And they've got a lot of these big businesses that support them to buy

[00:27:23] media houses to gain a large or significant share within their media.

[00:27:31] They've completely taken over state-run institutions that had some sort

[00:27:37] of independence before this to state-run media institutions to push out their

[00:27:45] propaganda or the support, their election goals.

[00:27:51] So I agree with that.

[00:27:53] It does give them India and the Chippa.

[00:27:55] India.

[00:27:56] That's all right.

[00:27:59] I mean, like the US and other Western countries,

[00:28:04] India, I'm not sure what you call India, Western countries.

[00:28:08] Yeah, I don't think so.

[00:28:10] Do you consider it a Western country?

[00:28:13] No, I do consider it a democracy, but I don't think it considered a Western country.

[00:28:18] OK, well, like a lot of democracies around the world,

[00:28:22] India is just a drowning or it would appear under a tide of misinformation

[00:28:28] disinformation, lots of organizations who are dedicated to fact checking.

[00:28:34] These narratives have sprung up.

[00:28:37] It really seems like they're fighting very much an uphill battle here.

[00:28:42] How bad is MIS and disinformation in India?

[00:28:47] It's extremely bad.

[00:28:49] And yes, they are fighting a desperate battle.

[00:28:53] I don't know if you've seen some

[00:28:55] of the reports lately indicate that around 80 or 90 percent of the MIS

[00:29:00] and disinformation regarding the Israel Hamas war,

[00:29:05] the Israel-Palestine conflict has been coming from India

[00:29:10] and it's mainly being pushed by right wing

[00:29:13] handles as part of their larger Islamophobic propaganda.

[00:29:19] Similarly, during the Russia-Ukraine war,

[00:29:22] a lot of the pro-Russian information or disinformation was also coming

[00:29:28] from India or Indian based handles. Why?

[00:29:32] Well, there is actually

[00:29:35] there is quite an interesting mix of nationalism and far right influence

[00:29:43] there, but really it was just that they had

[00:29:50] all of these tools available, right?

[00:29:53] Like this troll army in India has been

[00:29:58] was ripe and they're so treating to push out that sort of information.

[00:30:02] Why would they support Russia?

[00:30:04] I don't really understand the why behind it, but

[00:30:09] from what I know, they also have paid

[00:30:13] like there are paid firms that run these sort of things.

[00:30:17] And so, of course, they would do the bidding of whoever is paying them the most.

[00:30:22] And in this case, that could be Russia or Russian institutions.

[00:30:26] You're saying that the Russians are paying Indian

[00:30:31] social media people or programmers, whoever.

[00:30:36] Who are the Russians actually paying?

[00:30:39] They're not really social media programmers or people even.

[00:30:44] They're people that run bots or trolls on social media.

[00:30:48] So you've got you control armies.

[00:30:51] You've got so like the BJP has its IT cell.

[00:30:55] The BJP's IT cell is quite infamous for things like this.

[00:31:00] And so there have been private organizations,

[00:31:04] private firms, if you like to call them, that have

[00:31:07] that have begun in India that can be paid to do that sort of work for you.

[00:31:12] Coming back to the moving from Russia,

[00:31:15] Ukraine conflict back to the Middle East, there's an organization in India,

[00:31:20] the fact checking organization called ABOOM, I believe.

[00:31:24] And they've reported that most of the false narratives that have permeated

[00:31:29] India's public life are, as you say, tied to Islamophobia and that they're

[00:31:34] helping to spread disinformation throughout the country,

[00:31:39] throughout India with the goal, according to BOOM, of portraying

[00:31:45] India as something like what, 220, 230 million Muslims.

[00:31:49] The goal of portraying this gigantic

[00:31:53] Muslim minority population as a threat to the bigger Hindu population.

[00:32:00] Tell me about that BOOM allegation.

[00:32:03] Well, like I was mentioning earlier,

[00:32:06] this sort of Islamophobic rhetoric plays out really well in some of the political

[00:32:14] narratives that are being pushed, including those by the ruling party.

[00:32:19] And that plays out really well for them during election time.

[00:32:23] So if you look at the timing of this

[00:32:26] conflict and all of that news that is being spread, a lot of the

[00:32:30] disinformation that has been spread regarding the conflict,

[00:32:35] you see there is a very clear anti-Islamic or Islamophobic angle to it.

[00:32:42] And part of that is, yes, to sort of rile up communities within India,

[00:32:49] sort of try to get them to play the communal cult and

[00:32:53] ignite clashes or riots right before elections because one of the

[00:33:02] political campaign calls of the BJP is Hindu Khatri Mein,

[00:33:07] which translates to the Hindus are in danger.

[00:33:11] And just amplifying that message over and over again

[00:33:16] sort of appeals to their core voter base.

[00:33:20] Even though the Hindus, of course,

[00:33:22] are the far larger, yes, they are a large population.

[00:33:26] They feel threatened by the much smaller minority Muslim population.

[00:33:32] Yes, or they are being conditioned to be threatened by a much smaller minority

[00:33:38] population because of this constant barrage of misinformation or disinformation

[00:33:45] relating to Muslims or relating to Islam.

[00:33:50] One of the other things you did mention,

[00:33:53] the population and one of the other key disinformation pieces that they push

[00:33:58] out regarding Islamophobia or regarding this Hindu Khatri Mein concept

[00:34:05] is that

[00:34:07] the Muslim population is growing at a much faster rate and that the Muslim

[00:34:13] communities everywhere in India are trying to do this on purpose because they

[00:34:17] want to overtake the Hindu majority population, which if you actually look

[00:34:23] at statistics and figures is not really the case at all.

[00:34:26] And

[00:34:28] that are very clear because like the Hindu,

[00:34:31] the Hindu birth rate and the Muslim birth rate now after years are almost on par.

[00:34:37] So so it's really unlikely that the

[00:34:41] Muslim minority would at some point overtake the number of Hindus in India.

[00:34:46] But again, it's a narrative.

[00:34:48] It's a piece of disinformation that's pushed on

[00:34:51] repeatedly on social media across India.

[00:34:55] You know, I'm listening to everything that you're telling me,

[00:34:58] Pearl, and the question that I have, if you are a normal citizen in India,

[00:35:05] where do you go for unbiased, factual, balanced, fair information about

[00:35:16] events in India? Where do you go?

[00:35:18] And how do you know what's true?

[00:35:20] Well, it is it is very difficult to know what's true.

[00:35:25] But I think if you're a if you're a common person in India, I'd say stay

[00:35:30] clear of TV news completely.

[00:35:33] There was a point where TV news was

[00:35:37] not balanced, but you could see the channels were divided based on their

[00:35:42] bias if they were left leaning, center right, right leaning,

[00:35:46] if they were pro government, anti-government.

[00:35:49] You don't have that sort of divide anymore.

[00:35:52] It's just all pro-government.

[00:35:54] So I'd say stay completely like steer clear of TV news completely.

[00:36:01] If you're getting your news from newspapers, again, they have their

[00:36:05] leaning, so take them with a pinch of salt and independently fact check any

[00:36:11] and every message that you get on social media, because a lot of them

[00:36:16] a lot of them either add completely unto or throw their own spin on things.

[00:36:22] For me personally, I rely on

[00:36:25] I rely on independent journalists that are still working on YouTube and on their

[00:36:31] news sites.

[00:36:33] Thanks to Pearl D'Souza and from our earlier segment,

[00:36:37] Professor Margo Suska for their insights.

[00:36:41] Our sound designer and editor Noah Fouts,

[00:36:44] audio engineer Nathan Corson, executive producers Michael De Laoya and

[00:36:49] Gerardo Orlando and on behalf of Meredith Wilson, the CEO of

[00:36:54] Emergent Risk International, I'm Paul Brandes.

[00:36:57] Thanks so much for listening.

[00:37:08] I'm Ken Harbaugh, host of Burn the Boats from Evergreen podcasts.

[00:37:12] I interview political leaders and influencers, folks like award winning

[00:37:16] journalist Soledad O'Brien and conservative columnist Bill Crystal

[00:37:19] about the choices they confront and failure is not an option.

[00:37:23] I won't agree with everyone I talk to, but I respect anyone who believes in

[00:37:28] something enough to risk everything for it because history belongs to those

[00:37:32] willing to burn the boats.

[00:37:34] Episodes are out every other week wherever you get your podcasts.