Deliberate Talks ft. Divya Kamerkar - Remodeling Reproductive Healthcare & Education through Tech | Pixelated Egg

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Table for 2 edition of the Deliberate Talks podcast and I am your host Dakshin Adyantaya

[00:00:04] Turing you into the world of impact

[00:00:07] And today we probe into one of the most crucial aspects of personal health

[00:00:11] So join me as I unravel the fabric of reproductive health education with a remarkable guest Divya Kamaykar

[00:00:18] Divya is a visionary in the realm of digital health education and is the founder and CEO of Pinky Promise

[00:00:24] A venture that aims to transform women's healthcare in India and make it judgment free and accessible

[00:00:30] Apart from this, Divya has a strong experience in healthcare, public policy and politics

[00:00:36] And has previously worked at Britspan Group where she helped provide management consulting services

[00:00:42] To government, non-profit organizations and Delhi Commission for Women where she focused on making Delhi safer for women

[00:00:49] Today we sit down with Divya to discuss how she is reshaping the landscape of reproductive health education with Pinky Promise

[00:00:57] All this and more right after the short intro

[00:01:03] This is the Deliberate Talks Weekly Podcast powered by the Pixelated Egg Digital Ventures

[00:01:15] And we are back! Hello Divya, welcome to the Deliberate Talks podcast. How are you doing today?

[00:01:20] Hi Dakshin, pleasure to be here and I am doing really well. Thank you. Hope you are too

[00:01:25] Yes, absolutely. Super excited to host you and looking forward to a lot of interesting conversations with the things that you are building up

[00:01:34] But before that we have a ritual in the show and that's a very quick icebreaker question

[00:01:40] And let me start with asking you what's that one Pinky promise that you have broken in life?

[00:01:47] Oh my gosh! With my son I break it every single day because he is a naughty little toddler

[00:01:56] And I think every time he is up to something and he is the necessity to confess to me

[00:02:01] And he tells me don't tell anyone okay, don't tell papa okay

[00:02:05] But of course like you know at night it's like the funniest conversation that I could possibly have with my husband

[00:02:11] Where I am like do you know what Kiya did today?

[00:02:14] So I feel like I break Pinky promises with him on an almost daily basis unfortunately

[00:02:21] Wow! Yeah but he doesn't know it as yet. He will find out soon enough

[00:02:26] Adorable, that's awesome. Great now that we are all set for the round of questions Divya

[00:02:32] Firstly I am very curious to know Pinky promise lovely name who came up with the name what was the thought behind it?

[00:02:38] So we actually wanted a name that fixed something that's really easy has no problems when it comes to recall

[00:02:45] But honestly the idea for Pinky promise actually originated out of my apartment in Philadelphia

[00:02:51] When I was doing my MBA and I was like you know this is what we want to build

[00:02:55] And it needs to be something that is confidential that seems like a companion for women

[00:03:01] Something that they would trust even if their best friends weren't there for them

[00:03:06] And so essentially the you know we had a few names and the good thing about doing an MBA is they ask you to test everything

[00:03:13] So we then ran through some focus group discussions very quickly

[00:03:18] And realized that even in a non-English speaking population in India especially with the English speaking population

[00:03:24] Pinky promise that like it's feminine it is something to do with protecting my privacy and confidentiality

[00:03:30] It makes sense and even women who are not English speaking they really like the name Pinky promise

[00:03:36] It seemed to be something that caused a lot of brand recall and so we went with it

[00:03:41] Lovely and whose idea was?

[00:03:43] Well originally mine but my co-founders everybody loved it so we all went with it

[00:03:49] Lovely okay so I'm going to touch upon the obvious question which a lot of people must have already asked you

[00:03:58] In terms of you know why you started this and stuff like that

[00:04:02] But I'm also going to get much deeper into asking in with the views around the people that weren't sure about this concept

[00:04:11] There are people who will also have opinions about it and I'm keen on knowing were people not sure of the idea

[00:04:17] What were the doubts that you faced when you pitched in the idea and stuff like that

[00:04:21] Yeah so I think the origin story of Pinky promise was inspired more because of a personal incident

[00:04:28] In the second year of my MBA I was also expecting my child had no plans to start up at all and COVID hit

[00:04:34] So I was on one of these evacuation flights back to India and after reaching I still hadn't figured out who my gynaecologist year was going to be

[00:04:42] Because it was quite a sudden decision to actually come back

[00:04:45] I started developing some complications luckily being somebody who was from the city from Bombay who's otherwise well connected

[00:04:52] Within a couple of weeks with multiple consultations I was able to get it completely cleared out

[00:04:58] But in my head I was like why did it take a couple of weeks why did it take multiple consultations

[00:05:03] If my data actually had traveled with me if people did not require contact every single time there was a consultation

[00:05:12] And if for example we were able to actually use a lot of these clinical decision making tools that exist for the general population towards women

[00:05:21] The number of repeat visits and the accuracy of the diagnosis could be drastically improved

[00:05:26] So I think honestly that really what got me started on the journey of solving for this particular problem after having felt it

[00:05:33] I realized that wait a minute there are only 70,000 registered gynaecologists a little bit up and down

[00:05:39] According to the FOXIE which is a regulatory body for gynaecology in India

[00:05:44] And there are 360 million women of reproductive age in India

[00:05:48] So apart from the fact that in general reproductive healthcare is very very limited to just the delivery of a baby

[00:05:55] And the other elements of it are kind of not yet prioritized in India

[00:05:59] I realized that there's so much that we could do if we have an AI ML led solution to it

[00:06:05] And this was before generative AI really became a big boom

[00:06:09] It was very different like it was when Bayesian probabilistic systems were actually more used than anything else

[00:06:17] And so that's when we started building, so that's the story of Pinky Promise

[00:06:21] My co-founder Akanksha discovered Pinky Promise as a beta tester when she had a urinary tract infection

[00:06:27] And she was being a busy woman really hard for her to for something like this step out of her house

[00:06:33] Also hard to step out of your house when you're in so much pain

[00:06:36] So she actually tried out the app and in a minute she knew what medicines to take

[00:06:42] What to do, the gynaecologist was super nice, very friendly

[00:06:46] And she said she actually wanted all her healthcare to feel like this

[00:06:49] So she actually came in as a tech genius behind what we've built today

[00:06:54] And joined forces and that's kind of the story of Pinky Promise

[00:06:57] With respect to sort of the skepticism and everything

[00:07:02] Honestly, this is a very very new space

[00:07:05] Before this Metpalm and all of these other products have now come out

[00:07:10] We said we're going to eliminate all frictions, right?

[00:07:13] So we felt like any way healthcare shouldn't be a frictioned experience

[00:07:16] I come from a healthcare background

[00:07:18] And so for me, when I saw the kind of democratization that was happening in the field of education

[00:07:23] Where you could actually just learn anything anytime, anywhere, right?

[00:07:27] Number one, number two, financial services in India, right?

[00:07:30] Like it's almost instant for me to actually get a loan approval

[00:07:35] For me to actually get money transferred to me

[00:07:38] And for so many other savings instruments to be made available to me

[00:07:41] Whereas healthcare which is so fundamental to my life and death

[00:07:45] Is still a completely frictioned experience

[00:07:47] So I think the big dream honestly for us is let's just make healthcare completely frictionless

[00:07:52] And we started off with women's health

[00:07:54] And I think people were like wait a minute, we understand the bigger objective

[00:07:58] But why have you started with women's health?

[00:08:00] And so there were a lot of assumptions that we needed to test out

[00:08:03] We realized that women just don't go to a doctor

[00:08:06] Especially when it comes to their reproductive health, right?

[00:08:09] So of course one of this is the access barriers that I spoke to you about

[00:08:13] Which is that there's nobody close by who could be of good quality to go to

[00:08:17] And the second is even if I knew that there was someone next to me

[00:08:20] Next door, I might hesitate to go to a provider

[00:08:23] Because I'm worried about the experience I may have

[00:08:26] Like if I'm unmarried women would I be asked are you married?

[00:08:29] If I'm a married woman

[00:08:31] Would I be asked about my contraceptive usage and things like that

[00:08:35] Which is a little bit embarrassing for me to get into all of these things, right?

[00:08:38] So we essentially realized that women actually were going online to search for their symptoms

[00:08:45] And that gave us a lot of hope, we realized that in a given month in English alone

[00:08:49] Reproductive healthcare keywords were searched more than a hundred million times

[00:08:52] And what we did was the first thing we realized is we're asking women who don't go to a doctor

[00:08:57] So actually now come online, come to Pinky Promise

[00:09:00] Come online, you've never paid for healthcare services online

[00:09:04] But we want you to come to us and pay for your healthcare service online

[00:09:07] And we want you to trust the fact that instantly you're going to get connected to a gynaecologist

[00:09:12] Who's going to instantly give you a prescription for your care

[00:09:15] All of this is going to be AI ML based

[00:09:17] And then you're going to stick to your medication and you're going to feel better

[00:09:20] So as you can see that entire chain of events has so many assumptions that we needed to test out

[00:09:26] So there was obviously a lot of natural skepticism

[00:09:28] No one had seen this happen before

[00:09:30] And even people who generally were supportive of reproductive healthcare

[00:09:35] The requirement for disruption in the industry

[00:09:37] I think they were like, okay let's actually make sure that there's enough evidence to back what you're saying and what you're doing

[00:09:43] Although it was more of a gut feel for us

[00:09:45] We did everything that's required

[00:09:47] So the first thing we did was even before we built out an app

[00:09:51] We actually built out a diagnostic algorithm on XS

[00:09:54] And we then sort of essentially went and did an AB test where we mimicked a chatbot

[00:10:01] Copy-pasting responses, you know, we would say what is your problem

[00:10:04] They would tell their problem

[00:10:06] Then they'd ask the questions

[00:10:08] We would do that and we realized that women were actually significantly more truthful

[00:10:12] When I was chatting and asking these questions

[00:10:14] As opposed to even when I was calling up and being very very non-judgmental and asking these questions

[00:10:19] So I realized that like a purely digital bot based approach is actually going to work

[00:10:24] The second thing is we then built it all out

[00:10:27] Right? And for the past nine months from March to like now essentially

[00:10:32] We've been on an extended MVP sort of a system where for like a very limited number of frequently occurring issues

[00:10:38] We offered end-to-end care that is AI enabled

[00:10:41] And we wanted to understand number one, like are people paying for this?

[00:10:44] Are they getting value out of it?

[00:10:46] So what is the feedback looking like?

[00:10:48] Are we missing out on something important?

[00:10:50] And then we wanted to scale it up to everything

[00:10:52] So I think in the past these nine months more than 200,000 women have actually used our services

[00:10:57] Because we also have a few free things available on our app

[00:11:00] More than 10,000 women have paid for consultations without almost any marketing spend from RM

[00:11:06] And the interesting thing is despite the fact that only three or four main issues that we were covering

[00:11:11] And despite the fact that reproductive health care conditions like this

[00:11:15] Because we were not focusing on chronic conditions

[00:11:17] Like acute short-term infections and stuff for what we were focusing on

[00:11:21] They occur maybe once in a year for a woman

[00:11:24] Still for those who had it more than once

[00:11:27] 25% of people who actually paid came back to us to Kalsa

[00:11:30] So we realized that okay this is working very well for us

[00:11:34] The third thing we realized just even after women get their medicines right

[00:11:38] They have thousands of questions that they want to ask the doctor

[00:11:42] This is actually their first point of contact

[00:11:44] They're like I got my medicines wow

[00:11:46] Now I want to ask about like every single thing under the planet

[00:11:49] We did not have a mechanism for that

[00:11:51] We were doing it manually in the beginning we were just arranging calls

[00:11:53] And it was overwhelming us

[00:11:55] So we actually built a chat GPT based co-pilot for our gynecologist

[00:11:59] So that even after the medicine goes out

[00:12:01] The gynecologist can continue to provide real-time responses

[00:12:04] And they would be assisted by a really nice system

[00:12:07] For you know empathetic, accurate and proper responses

[00:12:10] That we would train based on our data

[00:12:12] So honestly like we had to test out all of this

[00:12:14] And finally I feel like we're in a point where we're like

[00:12:17] All of this is working let's scale

[00:12:19] Because 91% of women who have actually taken consultations with us

[00:12:23] Have reported feeling better and have come back within

[00:12:26] Sort of that adherence period to report to us that yeah we started our medication

[00:12:30] So that's what matters right

[00:12:32] Like if you're eventually building a healthcare platform

[00:12:34] You want to make sure that the outcomes are improved

[00:12:36] So that's the whole chain of events

[00:12:38] And obviously there's going to be a lot of skepticism

[00:12:40] But I feel like it's up to us to

[00:12:42] Especially as category defining or as first movers

[00:12:46] It's up to us to actually disprove that and say that

[00:12:48] We understand that there are a lot of questions

[00:12:50] But here's how we're tackling that

[00:12:53] You know this amazing thing that you touched upon

[00:12:56] When you have this conversation of skepticism with

[00:12:59] Say a school level program or someone

[00:13:02] This is required in a school level program I'm assuming

[00:13:05] And when you go to schools, when you go to education systems

[00:13:09] I think schools are also very skeptical

[00:13:12] About having a conversation like this

[00:13:14] Do you face such skepticism also or is it like they're welcome

[00:13:19] Because it's technology now being integrated to it

[00:13:23] Yeah I think it's a trickle down effect

[00:13:25] I feel like what we are noticing is that individuals themselves

[00:13:29] Young women, they are proactively seeking out these kind of services

[00:13:33] Correct

[00:13:34] So we thought about like what is the best way to go to market

[00:13:37] Do we go to institutions and schools and companies

[00:13:40] Or do we just go D2C

[00:13:42] And for us the D2C has just been like crazy good for us

[00:13:46] Right? Like our customer acquisition costs are like incredibly low

[00:13:51] Because what we realise is women are already searching for their symptoms

[00:13:55] Like if a young girl has just gotten her period

[00:13:58] And her school is not providing her the right resources

[00:14:01] Of course in areas which are internet enabled

[00:14:03] She's online, she's searching for what to do to manage my menstrual cycle

[00:14:08] And the good thing is because Pinkie Promise is the only platform

[00:14:13] That is providing you an instant answer that is provider driven

[00:14:16] It's a very easy way for us to acquire people

[00:14:19] By just being there when people are searching for their symptoms

[00:14:22] So what we realise is then it's like

[00:14:25] Oh can you come to my college and do this workshop for my college

[00:14:28] Because people from certain colleges have actually used Pinkie Promise

[00:14:32] Right? And so we get invited into colleges to actually like

[00:14:36] Then talk more about our product and spread it further

[00:14:39] But it's interestingly largely not been institution driven this initiative

[00:14:43] Only because I feel like people who are studying in these institutions

[00:14:47] Are becoming super proactive and are doing things themselves

[00:14:50] And want to take care of themselves

[00:14:52] There's a very interesting study by the Pew Research Centre

[00:14:54] In Internet and Society in America

[00:14:56] And it actually shows that women are more likely to read long form health articles

[00:15:01] About themselves and about health issues more than men

[00:15:04] And so I think that desire to actually care for ourselves

[00:15:08] And get better is certainly improving over generations

[00:15:12] We didn't see that in our mothers and all that

[00:15:14] Because unfortunately what we would see was

[00:15:16] Our mothers would for example always de-prioritise their health

[00:15:20] Like they would always have this one headache

[00:15:22] One backache, my feet are hurting

[00:15:24] And they would take all of us to the hospital

[00:15:27] Including the pets but not themselves

[00:15:29] But I think we're now seeing a growing generation of women

[00:15:32] Who are prioritising their healthcare and their well-being first

[00:15:35] And they're leading the adoption of things like Pinkie Promise

[00:15:38] To society

[00:15:40] Lovely, lovely

[00:15:41] Okay just continuing the conversation of skepticism again

[00:15:43] Now coming from a user perspective right

[00:15:46] They are very very sceptic about privacy

[00:15:50] And conversation within the app

[00:15:52] The data, right?

[00:15:54] Building trust is very crucial

[00:15:56] How are you dealing with this side of skepticism?

[00:15:59] I mean rightfully so

[00:16:01] People are sceptical, people are scared about their data

[00:16:04] I think there are two ways to do it

[00:16:06] From a theoretical standpoint

[00:16:08] There's a top-down approach and a bottom-up approach

[00:16:10] That's how I like to think about it

[00:16:12] So the top-down approach is

[00:16:14] Spend a lot of budget on building trust

[00:16:18] You basically have people who are trustworthy to serve

[00:16:21] With your brand ambassadors

[00:16:23] You go to every online and offline marketing source

[00:16:26] You plaster everything available with

[00:16:29] You know company Pinkie Promise

[00:16:31] Make it really attractive and people

[00:16:33] And as long as the product is good

[00:16:35] It spreads really good to you

[00:16:37] That's one way of doing it

[00:16:38] But what we chose was actually the bottom-up approach

[00:16:40] To building trust

[00:16:41] It's much harder but I think it's fundamentally required

[00:16:45] For you to then be able to scale

[00:16:47] And what we did was

[00:16:48] We said that every single step of the way

[00:16:51] We need to reinforce trust

[00:16:53] And the person who has a healthcare issue

[00:16:55] Would rather not have a healthcare issue

[00:16:57] So they're also not only not trusting your platform

[00:17:00] But they're also let's say disenchanted customers

[00:17:03] Of the outset because they don't want to be consulting a doctor

[00:17:07] They don't want to have a healthcare problem

[00:17:09] They don't want to say they have an issue

[00:17:11] So it's actually a really hard problem to crack

[00:17:14] So the first thing we did is

[00:17:16] We made sure that the way we were acquiring people

[00:17:18] Which was through our information was extremely trustworthy

[00:17:21] That was the first step on the way

[00:17:23] So we have, we write a lot of articles on our website

[00:17:26] That are all provider written

[00:17:28] And it's all done in-house

[00:17:30] So it's very cost effective

[00:17:32] The second thing is if you can see our social media

[00:17:35] Full of really informative content

[00:17:37] That's very relevant to the target audience

[00:17:39] And so that way people are like

[00:17:40] Okay I trust this information

[00:17:42] Maybe I'll click on the link

[00:17:43] But once we click on the link

[00:17:45] And use our app and platform

[00:17:47] We focus on making sure that every single thing

[00:17:50] In a way is clear, transparent and friendly

[00:17:53] Everything from the choice of colors

[00:17:55] To illustrations of brown women on our app

[00:17:58] That are actually like seeking healthcare

[00:18:01] Right?

[00:18:02] And to the way that we ask questions

[00:18:04] We make sure that we are reinforcing very subtly

[00:18:08] That this is a non-judgmental and safe platform

[00:18:11] And where we are asking for information

[00:18:13] There are a lot of disclaimers to make people understand

[00:18:15] Why are we asking this in the first place

[00:18:17] So for example according to Indian

[00:18:19] Telemedicine Practice Guidelines

[00:18:21] We do need to verify identification

[00:18:23] Right?

[00:18:24] So obviously like why are you asking me for my identity

[00:18:27] Are you going to tell my parents about

[00:18:28] Interestingly it's not a question of

[00:18:29] Is the data stored securely

[00:18:31] But it's like if my family is going to know about it

[00:18:33] Like that's actually unfortunately the bigger problem

[00:18:36] That we are facing

[00:18:37] So we make sure we clarify how we deal with your data

[00:18:40] How is it securely stored

[00:18:42] How is it maintained all of that stuff right

[00:18:44] And so we are very very clear

[00:18:46] The best part is the payment actually comes after

[00:18:48] You answer your question to the doctor

[00:18:50] So it's only when we know you have a problem

[00:18:53] You do require a medicine for it

[00:18:55] Or a prescription for it that you end up paying

[00:18:57] And why then the trust is reinforced

[00:18:59] We actually have a 2% drop off

[00:19:01] Between people who fill our questions and base

[00:19:03] And the only way we are able to do that

[00:19:04] Is to all of these UI, UX

[00:19:07] Repeat prototyping and testing

[00:19:09] And improving the product to make sure that

[00:19:11] It's a trustworthy platform

[00:19:13] And of course I think we also have to put

[00:19:15] Some money where our mouth is

[00:19:17] So we do and Akash has really responsible for this

[00:19:20] But we do a prioritized heavily the data security

[00:19:23] And our data architecture to make sure that

[00:19:26] The vulnerability is as minimal as possible

[00:19:30] There's no risk of breach

[00:19:32] People's data is safe with us

[00:19:34] So these are all things that we do focus on

[00:19:36] Right, you know there's an interesting article I read

[00:19:39] Where there's an instance where you have mentioned

[00:19:41] That there's a small percentage of

[00:19:43] Dropout in terms of or uninstallments

[00:19:46] Of the app, right

[00:19:48] How are you catering to this problem in terms of

[00:19:50] Regaining because obviously it must be a shared device

[00:19:53] Or you know they're not sure after the first service

[00:19:56] Or they for now don't want to use the service

[00:19:59] How do you ensure that this kind of thing

[00:20:02] Is bridged together

[00:20:04] I think two ways it was an interesting thing

[00:20:06] For us to realize and what we were concerned about

[00:20:08] Was it because of poor quality of service

[00:20:10] Good thing is that it was not

[00:20:12] Because we actually called all of these women

[00:20:14] And we were like we just want to know what happened

[00:20:17] In fact in the course of this nine month period

[00:20:19] We must have spoken about 50, 60 thousand women

[00:20:21] So we want to make sure that we actually understand

[00:20:24] What's going on as opposed to just relying on

[00:20:27] Of course we use the numbers to figure out

[00:20:29] What the problem is and then we try to diagnose it

[00:20:31] But all the women that we spoke to said

[00:20:33] That no thank you this was a fantastic service

[00:20:36] But I don't want someone to find out

[00:20:39] That I'm on pinky promise

[00:20:41] We're like are you on any dating apps

[00:20:43] Do you do the same with dating apps

[00:20:45] They're like yeah yeah yeah we do the same

[00:20:47] It was an interesting question to ask guys

[00:20:50] So what we realized was because we were focusing

[00:20:53] On one of conditions

[00:20:55] The minute that the woman is like okay

[00:20:58] I now know my medicines I have already

[00:21:00] Chatted with the doctor all my questions

[00:21:02] Have been resolved I feel better

[00:21:04] There is a likelihood of an uninstall happening

[00:21:06] At that point

[00:21:08] So there are two ways that we have fixed it

[00:21:10] You know 40% upwards of women

[00:21:13] Who actually come with one of conditions

[00:21:15] Also discover chronic conditions on our platform

[00:21:18] I mean polycystic ovaries is of course

[00:21:20] Something that is very prominent in the

[00:21:23] Indian genome The second thing of course

[00:21:26] Are issues like thyroid concerns

[00:21:28] Menopause, pregnancy journeys, postpartum journeys

[00:21:32] And in general like it may not be

[00:21:34] Polycystic ovaries but it could be

[00:21:36] Hormonal disruptions, cycle disruptions

[00:21:38] Seema Shah who is our medical director

[00:21:40] Has about 15 years of experience exclusively

[00:21:42] Focusing on these issues because

[00:21:44] Well before polycystic ovaries became like a buzz word

[00:21:47] A decade ago she actually set up her own practice

[00:21:50] Focusing on VZOS

[00:21:52] So she has that experience of actually

[00:21:54] Working on reversing the condition

[00:21:56] In thousands and thousands of women

[00:21:58] And now we're actually scaling that up on our plan

[00:22:00] We're using AI to actually make you

[00:22:02] Feel like you're constantly connected

[00:22:04] To your provider and your nutritionist

[00:22:06] We're using a lot of background data

[00:22:08] So that you know it's very seamless

[00:22:10] You don't have to come every day and tell us

[00:22:12] Okay what did you eat, what did you do

[00:22:14] All that stuff is if we detect something

[00:22:16] Is wrong we reach out to you

[00:22:18] But that way like women with chronic conditions

[00:22:20] Will continue to actually remain on our platform

[00:22:22] On a subscription based system

[00:22:24] So that we are able to effectively retain them

[00:22:27] And the second thing is we actually

[00:22:29] Built out and released a period track

[00:22:31] Which is being used by about

[00:22:35] If I'm not mistaken

[00:22:37] Today there are about 35,000 women

[00:22:39] Using our period tracking service

[00:22:41] And we only launched it a few months ago

[00:22:43] Now in fact we have learned

[00:22:45] That to get even more women

[00:22:47] It's important to move away

[00:22:49] From the standard format of the period tracker

[00:22:51] That we are also used to

[00:22:53] Seeing and use something that's

[00:22:55] A little bit more intuitive in chat wave

[00:22:57] To get the information

[00:22:59] So we're hoping that with these two things

[00:23:01] We'll be able to significantly

[00:23:03] Increase the retention and the repeat visit rates

[00:23:06] So that people don't uninstall

[00:23:08] Interestingly the action even women who

[00:23:10] Uninstall the platform

[00:23:12] They are actually able to come back to us

[00:23:14] The minute they have a reproductive health issue

[00:23:17] And we're also launching a web app

[00:23:19] Which means that uninstall and needing to install

[00:23:22] Something to be able to access it

[00:23:24] Is no longer going to be a fiction

[00:23:26] Or a requirement for you

[00:23:28] Right, right, super

[00:23:29] You know you also mentioned a small part

[00:23:31] Of subscription as well

[00:23:32] And I'm very keen on knowing this

[00:23:34] There's a 50 rupees basic charge

[00:23:36] If I'm not wrong as well right

[00:23:38] Yeah, so considering the demographic challenges

[00:23:41] The cultural curiosities

[00:23:43] And also considering

[00:23:45] You know they're already skeptical about

[00:23:47] Whether going on an app and you know

[00:23:49] Is this genuine or building that kind of trust

[00:23:51] For the very first time right

[00:23:53] Would you think of free app like you did mention

[00:23:55] There are certain services which are for free

[00:23:57] In the app but would you think

[00:23:59] The free aspect of it would pull in more

[00:24:01] Accessibility or do you think

[00:24:04] This is to restrict the number of spams

[00:24:06] Or for the sake of people coming in

[00:24:08] And asking questions, what was your thought?

[00:24:10] I think there were two things

[00:24:12] So we've actually interestingly increased

[00:24:15] Updizing so it's not 50 anymore

[00:24:17] It's 99 rupees because

[00:24:19] We did a lot of studies on

[00:24:21] What is the level to which people

[00:24:23] Actually consider the same and to be

[00:24:25] Something that's worthwhile but also

[00:24:27] Reduces drop off significantly

[00:24:29] And we were able to arrive at this number

[00:24:31] And before I think one of the reasons

[00:24:33] Why we're able to impact price

[00:24:35] It's so low on average if you're in a big city

[00:24:38] In person gynaecologist Kamsal

[00:24:40] Is about 1000 rupees at least

[00:24:42] With a good one and the kind of

[00:24:44] Gynaecologists we have on our platform

[00:24:46] Are those gynaecologists they're like

[00:24:48] Actually if you go to one of their clinics

[00:24:50] You're gonna have to pay that much money anyway

[00:24:52] And we make sure that we bring on

[00:24:54] Really quality providers onto our platform

[00:24:57] But at the same time we're able to price it

[00:24:59] So low because at the end of the day

[00:25:01] Our technology does most of the work

[00:25:03] And it disrupts and enables

[00:25:06] Our gynaecologists to then focus on

[00:25:08] Curing that patient, focus on the care part

[00:25:11] As opposed to the investigative development

[00:25:13] And that really really reduces the cost

[00:25:15] And it causes and we've built

[00:25:17] Such a light back end that almost

[00:25:19] Costs us nothing to run that

[00:25:21] Number of times for our customers

[00:25:23] And so the in fact more than

[00:25:26] Any other telemedicine platform where

[00:25:28] You have to share revenue for each and every

[00:25:31] Consult with gynaecologists we don't actually do that

[00:25:33] And that enables us to retain all our

[00:25:36] Ones. The second thing is

[00:25:38] We decided to price as opposed to

[00:25:41] To be very honest with you with a lot

[00:25:43] Of the income streams that are now

[00:25:45] Going to be launched and you'll see

[00:25:47] That soon something like one off

[00:25:49] One time payments for a healthcare service

[00:25:51] Is not going to be what five years down the line

[00:25:54] Contributes in a large manner to our bottom line

[00:25:57] For the business. So sure in the future

[00:25:59] Maybe we could have thought about a reality

[00:26:01] Where all of this is free. The reason

[00:26:03] Why we didn't do that is twofold

[00:26:05] The first is if you look at the psychology

[00:26:07] Of a customer right, this is healthcare

[00:26:09] We're talking about and we eventually

[00:26:11] Want people to actually take this very seriously

[00:26:13] We want to make sure that you realize

[00:26:15] That what you're getting is an actual

[00:26:17] Gynaecologist's time and actual gynaecologists

[00:26:20] Thoughts that have gone into figuring out

[00:26:22] What medication you need to take

[00:26:24] And what you need to do to get a better

[00:26:26] And so and you're getting better is valuable

[00:26:29] For us for you to come back to our platform

[00:26:31] Right and so we priced it at 99 rupees

[00:26:34] Because we realized that it's low enough

[00:26:36] That women who answer these questions

[00:26:38] And have come onto our platform are like

[00:26:40] Yeah okay yeah this makes sense I'll test it out

[00:26:42] I'll try it's not a big deal I can take

[00:26:44] That leap of faith but at the same time

[00:26:46] It's meaningful enough that they don't

[00:26:48] Consider this to be, could be

[00:26:50] Like it's a free thing and so

[00:26:52] Interestingly there's a lot of public health

[00:26:55] Literature out there in terms of

[00:26:57] Malarial net so as you know

[00:26:59] Soap or hand washing and stuff like that

[00:27:02] Which actually say that giving something out for free

[00:27:04] Is more effective in terms of

[00:27:06] Update but what we've actually seen

[00:27:08] Is when women are able to value

[00:27:10] What the fact that they're paying for something

[00:27:12] They take it far more seriously

[00:27:14] Like the amount of you know

[00:27:16] Because we guarantee instant responses

[00:27:18] If there's a technological issue and a delay

[00:27:20] The amount of women who call us immediately

[00:27:23] And tell us that I've paid and this is delayed

[00:27:26] Is very very high

[00:27:29] Not a good situation for us to be in

[00:27:31] But it's basically

[00:27:34] Reaffirms what we thought of

[00:27:36] The second thing is we are a disruptive player

[00:27:39] Right like the reason that we have priced it so low

[00:27:41] Is because we don't think fundamentally

[00:27:44] That as a business we don't think that

[00:27:47] Out of pocket payments by individual women

[00:27:50] For their healthcare should be what drives the healthcare industry

[00:27:53] And by people right

[00:27:55] That's what's happening in India today

[00:27:57] The private healthcare industry

[00:27:59] So if you're actually going to be a business

[00:28:01] That completely disrupted like this is the way to go

[00:28:03] And so that's how we thought about it as well

[00:28:06] And we want people to be like

[00:28:08] Did you know that for 99 rupees only

[00:28:10] You actually get the best care

[00:28:12] And it's better than anywhere else that you could go to

[00:28:14] That's the mindset that we want

[00:28:16] And as I mentioned you were at that point

[00:28:18] Where the bottom up stuff has worked really well

[00:28:20] And we want to scale the top down approach

[00:28:22] So I think now is when we are expecting

[00:28:25] In a few moments that people start really talking about this

[00:28:28] And if you look at our Google Play reviews also

[00:28:30] A lot of women have mentioned this

[00:28:32] They're like I cannot believe that

[00:28:34] I got such an amazing service

[00:28:36] Like and now I'm going to tell everybody about it

[00:28:38] And these are all completely organic

[00:28:40] Like loads of people have just gone there

[00:28:42] And written all of these things

[00:28:44] So yeah that's honestly why we chose this sort of a price and strategy

[00:28:48] Great and your app also has content in Tamil, Hindi

[00:28:53] And Marathi besides English right

[00:28:56] So what was the thought behind it

[00:28:58] Why did you come up with multiple languages

[00:29:01] Obviously because of the cultural

[00:29:03] And demographic representation of your TG

[00:29:06] And what other languages are in process also

[00:29:09] In you know your future timelines

[00:29:12] You know this question on languages is very very interesting

[00:29:15] And I think the way that we thought about this

[00:29:18] Was we knew for a fact that if you want to be

[00:29:21] A mass market driven solution for healthcare in India

[00:29:24] For women you can't stick to English alone

[00:29:27] Two reasons number one of course the population that speaks it

[00:29:30] They could be like your starting market

[00:29:32] But they're definitely not going to be the market

[00:29:34] That eventually drives the millions and millions right

[00:29:37] Number two is just from a real reality check standpoint

[00:29:42] We are women in the cities building something right

[00:29:46] And the way people act with healthcare outside of cities

[00:29:49] Is so different like I've actually lived and worked in Bihar

[00:29:52] In rural areas in Tamil Nadu, New P

[00:29:55] And what I realized was when it comes to reproductive

[00:29:59] Healthcare terms using English to ask these questions

[00:30:02] Just doesn't make any sense

[00:30:04] But at the same time it was complicated

[00:30:06] Because women don't use proper words to describe

[00:30:09] Their reproductive healthcare body parts

[00:30:11] Or describe their reproductive healthcare cycles

[00:30:13] Nothing right there are so many euphemisms

[00:30:15] My monthly dose is what a lot of people say

[00:30:19] What does that mean your periods are coming right

[00:30:22] If you use a word like menstruation

[00:30:24] Most of India is not going to understand what that means right

[00:30:27] So I think it was a big challenge

[00:30:30] And we were a bit hesitant to step into it

[00:30:32] We thought English is working the fidelity of the responses

[00:30:35] Is high let's scale this up and then focus on other things

[00:30:38] But what we realized is like as we scaled 70%

[00:30:42] Of our audience was coming from tier to tier 3

[00:30:44] And smaller demographics and they were all chatting in English

[00:30:48] And so we first translated the app into English

[00:30:51] And not Hindi and not you know not any pure language

[00:30:54] We actually use English and we translated the app

[00:30:57] This was done internally and then USAID

[00:30:59] So we are actually a part of this program

[00:31:02] Where the momentum of global partnership of USAID

[00:31:05] With Jaffego and Wilgo they actually have funded us

[00:31:08] And they support us

[00:31:09] They insisted they said you know what this is actually

[00:31:11] Going to be very important for you as a business

[00:31:13] We help you provide technical assistance

[00:31:16] We'll actually sponsor the whole effort to translate the app

[00:31:20] And so we got a really good organization

[00:31:22] To work on translating into Tamil and Marathi

[00:31:25] In addition to English because these were two large pockets

[00:31:28] Where our users were coming from in addition to the Hindi belt

[00:31:31] So we did that we piloted it and everything

[00:31:34] And now we've actually learned a lot from it

[00:31:37] Like user generated feedback on how this process is working

[00:31:41] We are actually in the process of just launching

[00:31:43] A completely revamped and complete version of our app

[00:31:46] In that interesting it's only going to be starting with English

[00:31:49] Because we've learned so much over the process of translation

[00:31:52] That we want to actually build a very scalable framework

[00:31:55] For translation

[00:31:56] Going language by language by language is not scalable

[00:31:59] And so we have a few tricks up our sleeve

[00:32:03] To make sure that it's scalable but also medically relevant

[00:32:06] Medically understandable

[00:32:07] And in a couple of months it should be available

[00:32:11] Not just these three languages

[00:32:13] But in a whole host of vernacular languages

[00:32:16] Just curious again when say someone from Tamil Nadu

[00:32:21] Types in English or types in Tamil

[00:32:24] But in English

[00:32:25] Tamil words in English

[00:32:27] Or even short forms of each word

[00:32:31] How do you really try to understand the language and perceive

[00:32:36] So there are two things that we have done

[00:32:38] So we only match people speaking certain regional languages

[00:32:42] If they've actually chosen that platform

[00:32:44] We match them to the providers that know those languages

[00:32:46] So that also constrained our choice of language obviously

[00:32:50] But luckily like the you know

[00:32:52] Thanks to India being such a diverse landscape

[00:32:55] We were able to find quality providers in all of languages

[00:32:58] But I think what we did was that was one constraint

[00:33:01] Second thing that we did was

[00:33:02] When it came to the initial intake of symptoms and medical history

[00:33:06] We constrained the responses because of this problem

[00:33:09] Even people who start out saying English is my language

[00:33:12] They will break off into a regional thing in the middle

[00:33:15] Of describing their problems

[00:33:17] Because I had a free flow chart system

[00:33:19] Where it's like please describe what issue you're paving

[00:33:22] You will get paragraphs from women and we've actually tested this out

[00:33:26] And we have so much data which we're actually now using to train a bot

[00:33:30] To understand that intent really well

[00:33:32] We first wanted to focus on the medical components right

[00:33:35] So we constrained response and we enabled

[00:33:38] But we also made sure that the choices available were as

[00:33:41] Easy as possible right

[00:33:43] So there were as many choices available over there

[00:33:45] And we went through an extensive pilot with more than 10,000 women

[00:33:49] To make sure that that was the key

[00:33:51] And continued to iterate it so like

[00:33:53] Thanks to Akansha we

[00:33:55] The minute we know that we need to change a question we changed it life

[00:33:57] Like it's very easy and it's carried forward

[00:33:59] It's just very easy that way

[00:34:01] But we did all of that to make sure that initially

[00:34:03] Your symptom and medical history intake is constrained

[00:34:06] And that confusion doesn't creep in

[00:34:08] But when it comes to the chat

[00:34:10] The free flow chat with the doctor

[00:34:12] Once you get your prescription

[00:34:14] We did not constrain that at all

[00:34:16] Purposely to Lord

[00:34:17] And so that's how we've been training our system

[00:34:20] With a lot of the way that people actually described

[00:34:22] But the good thing is these LLMs are actually really good with Indian regional languages

[00:34:26] So we're actually not

[00:34:28] As long as we train with the right

[00:34:31] So do we do the right amount of training and fine tuning

[00:34:35] We should soon be able to learn something where instead of

[00:34:38] These constrained responses

[00:34:40] Women can just actually have a natural experience

[00:34:42] Of their problems in great detail

[00:34:44] And only what's missing

[00:34:45] The intent will be understood and confirmed

[00:34:47] And only what's missing

[00:34:48] Will actually be asked in terms of what else is required

[00:34:51] In the medical protocol to be able to diagnose you

[00:34:53] That's a much more effective system

[00:34:55] Absolutely wonderful stuff that Divya

[00:34:57] That brings us to the end of the first round of questions

[00:35:00] And now I'm going to move into the last round of questions

[00:35:08] This is the last round of questions

[00:35:10] This is the rapid fire round

[00:35:12] And this is the time to pace up our conversation

[00:35:15] So ready for some fast-paced questions coming at you?

[00:35:19] Alright, I'll try my best

[00:35:21] Let me see a cup of coffee

[00:35:25] Alright, I'm ready, let's go for this

[00:35:28] Lovely

[00:35:29] In 60 seconds, give me three reasons why one should download the Pinky Promise app now

[00:35:35] It's extremely convenient

[00:35:37] It's completely judgment free

[00:35:39] And it works really well at a very low cost

[00:35:42] Superb

[00:35:43] In 50 seconds, three advices for women in STEM

[00:35:47] Aspiring to be health entrepreneurs

[00:35:50] I think the first advices do not limit yourself

[00:35:53] You know, STEM is honestly the best field that I've had

[00:35:57] The joy of sort of studying

[00:35:59] And it's just there's so much you can do

[00:36:02] The possibilities in STEM today are just limitless

[00:36:04] That's always been

[00:36:05] So don't limit yourself

[00:36:06] Number two, find the right mentor

[00:36:08] Especially women in STEM

[00:36:10] Make sure that you have senior women in STEM

[00:36:12] Who are advocates for you

[00:36:14] Who are the right mentors

[00:36:15] And number three, keep learning

[00:36:17] STEM is a field that's constantly advancing

[00:36:19] That's constantly improving

[00:36:21] There's so many research papers of high relevance

[00:36:23] That are being pushed out every single day

[00:36:25] Take time in the morning

[00:36:27] Where you can actually do that learning and reading

[00:36:29] Which is completely unstructured

[00:36:31] Not necessarily pertaining to your work

[00:36:33] But pertaining to what you're interested in

[00:36:35] Super

[00:36:36] I had to learn how to code

[00:36:37] So yeah, that's something that

[00:36:39] Yeah, I had to learn AI, I had to learn how to code

[00:36:41] I had to learn math, I had to learn probability

[00:36:43] All of that for Pinky Promise

[00:36:45] And it's been very helpful

[00:36:46] I feel like in the future

[00:36:47] That's where the world is headed to

[00:36:49] And women in STEM should recognize and do that

[00:36:51] Super

[00:36:52] Okay

[00:36:53] In 40 seconds

[00:36:54] Three most amazing feedback from Pinky Promise users

[00:36:57] That you have received

[00:36:58] I think the first was

[00:37:00] Wow, this is the best ever

[00:37:02] I am telling my entire family about it

[00:37:04] And her mom actually did consult with us

[00:37:06] For her menopause problems

[00:37:08] The second thing was

[00:37:09] This description is so neat and clean

[00:37:11] I can't believe I understand it

[00:37:15] Which is nice

[00:37:16] I did a five-chart script with

[00:37:18] And the third one was

[00:37:20] Thank you for asking me more questions

[00:37:23] And easier questions

[00:37:25] That I've ever been asked in my life

[00:37:27] I was really ashamed to go anywhere and consult

[00:37:29] But Pinky Promise has made it easy for them

[00:37:31] Okay

[00:37:32] In 30 seconds

[00:37:33] Three reproductive health myths

[00:37:35] You wish to debunk

[00:37:36] The first is that

[00:37:38] There's no specific food

[00:37:40] That actually causes you to

[00:37:42] Either get your periods early

[00:37:43] Or get your periods late

[00:37:44] Like that doesn't work that way

[00:37:46] And a lot of women have that question

[00:37:48] Actually they wonder if

[00:37:50] I ate cucumber

[00:37:51] Now I'm not getting my periods

[00:37:53] I got my periods

[00:37:55] But I want to change my cycle

[00:37:56] So can I have ginger water

[00:37:58] I mean there's no scientifically proven study

[00:38:00] That actually demonstrates causality

[00:38:02] The second thing is

[00:38:04] Vaginal discharge is normal

[00:38:06] A lot of women actually think that it's not normal

[00:38:08] It's only when the texture, the color, the smell

[00:38:11] The feel changes

[00:38:12] That you need to actually come

[00:38:13] And consult somebody about it

[00:38:15] I think the third thing is

[00:38:17] A 28 day cycle is not for everybody

[00:38:20] The minute that a woman actually

[00:38:22] Some people can have genetically shorter

[00:38:24] Or genetically longer cycles

[00:38:26] And that's just okay

[00:38:28] The fourth thing is a lot of women

[00:38:30] Actually feel that the oral contraceptive pill

[00:38:32] The birth control pill causes infertility

[00:38:35] As long as your medical history is cleared

[00:38:38] For taking the oral contraceptive pill

[00:38:40] There's no such thing

[00:38:42] There is a return to fertility that happens

[00:38:44] In a few months after the birth control pill

[00:38:47] It's helpful for long term preservation

[00:38:50] Of your own birth control plan

[00:38:52] And stuff like that

[00:38:54] Okay, great

[00:38:55] In 20 seconds, biggest challenge while developing the pinky pot

[00:39:00] Oh God, this is a hard one for rapid fire

[00:39:03] That's very effective

[00:39:06] I think for us it was the technology at first

[00:39:09] We were trying to ensure that our AIML

[00:39:13] Was based off of the right medical protocols

[00:39:17] And we trained on 250 plus medical protocols

[00:39:20] So fine tuning that and making sure that it's proper

[00:39:22] For somebody to actually use

[00:39:24] Is important and even to date

[00:39:26] Nothing goes out to the customer

[00:39:28] Without the doctor verifying the information

[00:39:30] The second thing I just wanted to say is

[00:39:32] More than the technology, honestly

[00:39:34] Getting people to use the platform and trust it

[00:39:36] Is honestly a bigger challenge

[00:39:38] So that's also something that we face initially

[00:39:41] But I feel like we've figured out ways

[00:39:44] And means to completely tackle that now

[00:39:46] Lovely

[00:39:47] And finally in 10 seconds

[00:39:48] Your favorite health app besides pinky promise

[00:39:51] I really like Health if I Need

[00:39:54] I love what they've built

[00:39:55] It's a really nice app

[00:39:56] And who knows to them for actually being super tech first

[00:39:59] I'm glad to see that there are such big companies

[00:40:03] That are well above us

[00:40:04] Before us there are so tech first

[00:40:06] When it comes to their healthcare

[00:40:07] It helps the industry, it helps investors

[00:40:10] Sort of have faith in other applications that do that

[00:40:13] Fabulous stuff that brings us to the end of today's show

[00:40:18] It's just amazing to hear your journey

[00:40:21] And how you're revolutionizing this entire space

[00:40:24] Of conversation around reproductive health

[00:40:26] Thank you so much for this valuable conversation

[00:40:29] I thoroughly enjoyed hosting you

[00:40:30] I hope you had a good time on the show too

[00:40:32] Oh I had a great time

[00:40:33] Thank you so much

[00:40:34] It's lovely to actually go and answer these questions

[00:40:37] When we were so focused on building

[00:40:39] To actually like think back at

[00:40:40] Oh wow what was that like

[00:40:42] Was very helpful

[00:40:43] So thank you so much

[00:40:45] And pleasure to be on your platform

[00:40:47] Thank you, thank you Divya

[00:40:49] Thank you and wishing you

[00:40:51] And Pinkyprom is nothing but the best for the future

[00:40:53] Thank you so much and likewise

[00:40:56] Thank you take care, bye bye

[00:40:58] Bye