The CATK Interview: Dr. Andrew Whitehead on Christian Nationalism

[00:00:00] We've been about this work, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, shared through the voices of a white woman and a black man. We bring lived experiences. We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives.

[00:00:17] We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues and hosts, incredible guests, listeners. Cat on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it, Julie kick off the show. Welcome to Crazy and The King.

[00:00:41] In the black church, we say hallelujah. Okay. They actually like pop the tambourine. Did I ever tell you, Jay, that I grew up playing the drums in church? Did I tell you that? No, I don't think you've ever told me that. Okay.

[00:00:54] So I'm going to give you a story real quick. So when I learned how to play the drums in church, I must have been maybe around 12, 12 or 13 had never touched a pair of drumsticks in my life. Our main drummer in the church was an army veteran.

[00:01:12] I think Kevin was still in the army. He may have just gotten out of the army, but his name was Kevin three threat three. Kevin was incredible on the drums. I would sit on the front row. My mom sang in the choir.

[00:01:25] I would sit on the front row and I was like, I got to know how to do this. I got to learn how to do this. So the first time I hopped on the drums, I'll never forget Ms. Kleevon. She was like, get that boy off the drums.

[00:01:36] Get that boy off the drums. He cannot keep a beat. He's messing up the entire tempo. Get him off the drums, but it only took a little bit of time and practice. And I got it. Like I was a pretty wicked drummer in church, like pretty good.

[00:01:52] Are you still a wicked drummer? Not as wicked, but I can keep a beat. Now that I can do, but I can't do all of the things that I used to be able to do, roll around and I can't do all of that stuff.

[00:02:04] Are you a spiritual person, religious person? Yeah, that's a great question. You and I both grew up in the church. I grew up in the very evangelical Pentecostal church. So I have conflicted feelings, but I would say I'm more spiritual than I am religious.

[00:02:21] I think God is real and He meets us or she or they meet us where we are. It doesn't come in Christianity or Buddhism or whatever it is that you need. That's where we find our faith and our spirituality. What about you? You don't mention it very often.

[00:02:38] It's more of like my trauma. Yeah, I know. Hold on for a second. This is, see right now you just fell in that 53% of white women thing. You actually said conflicted, but then you said I believe God is real and all of that.

[00:02:53] And so most people, I'm just being funny, which I'm teasing you right now. It's really hard not to be that white woman. I know most people would lean on the backside of the conversation. Well she amplified God and all that, but I'm zoning in on the word conflicted.

[00:03:10] Back up a little bit. Why is it a conflicted relationship for you? And then I will answer the question. Yeah, I mean I don't see how someone that I am supposed to love and is all powerful and

[00:03:21] created this entire universe will happily condemn 99% of us to fiery hellish eternity and only save this 1% of us. That's not a God that I'm into. That's not a God. I think that's a God that's been created by men of power who want to retain power and that

[00:03:48] the idea of a God has been ruined by the practice of religion. Yeah, okay. All right. I am a, I kind of get it confused sometimes, but I'm a very spiritual person. My favorite pastor is Tolan Morgan. He's out of the Georgia area.

[00:04:12] There's a sermon that he's done. It's on YouTube. It's titled Touch Me Again. I have probably watched that sermon no less than 50, 60 times. And one little secret. This is a little secret that I've probably never said publicly.

[00:04:28] What I have shared with you Jay is that I normally am using life events and I'll write them down on little orange and yellow sticky notes. And I had a wall in my office that I would put them on or I would place them in a book.

[00:04:43] And it could just be a random thought, a random event in life. And I'll just scribble it down and then I drop it in this place. And so I use that to help me form how I am going to move through whatever my keynote

[00:04:58] presentation is for that year. But before I speak two, three days before I speak, there are two, three days before I speak, there are two things that I always do. I listen to Coronel West and I listen to some of my favorite passers.

[00:05:15] And it keeps me grounded so that when my energy is so connected to humanity that I am finding the right words and operating in a space where I can deliver where people are receiving even that truth and that tough transparency that I'm giving them.

[00:05:33] So I'm a very spiritual person. I'm not a hit you over the head with the Bible person. I'm not the guy who knows how to quote all of the Bible verses, nor do I want to be that guy. That's not who I'm trying to be.

[00:05:47] But I do believe in a much higher power. But because of that belief, I am not a person who feels like my belief should be the one that everyone else succumbs to or adopts, if you will. How do you how do you handle that as it relates to

[00:06:08] our country acknowledging and being accepting of other people's beliefs? Yeah, I mean, I think that we are seeing this play out in real time. Again, something I don't say out loud very often. I grew up in the church. I am for myself a pro life decision maker.

[00:06:28] I would not terminate a pregnancy unless it was to save my life or the extreme things that we hear happen. And that's my personal choice. But I would never inflict upon another human being my requirements. And I think that's the thing that we see with forced birth

[00:06:49] believers is that we are requiring people who are not Christians to legally accept that same belief system and that standard and impact that on our lives. And I think that's the the release kind of scary part about the overturning of Roe is sort of that first drumbeat,

[00:07:11] maybe not the first, it's probably in a series of drumbeats that starts to move us more towards a theocracy and further away from a democracy. And you know, you start to hear the word Republic used a lot now

[00:07:25] by very right wing people who are saying, hey, you know, it just some of the people need to vote, not all of the people need to vote. And sort of that that removal of rights, I think is based on religious belief is pretty scary, pretty profound.

[00:07:41] And so, you know, I think you believe what you believe in. Government should take care of all of the people, not just some of the people. We should say that often, take care of all the people and not just some of the people.

[00:07:58] When you say that, you mean in as many ways as possible, not in a limited perspective, correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. So health, education, housing, occupation, like we have as a government, a responsibility to the people who are not Christians.

[00:08:18] Like we have as a government, a responsibility to make sure that we are taking care of our people. Correct? Yeah. I mean, the government exists to protect our sovereignty and to create stability within the nation. And when we ignore with our policies and our belief structure,

[00:08:39] you know, three quarters of a country that's changing rapidly, we're setting ourselves up for failure. If we don't, you know, we are about to drop out of the top 50 countries in health care and our lifespan is going down in America. Our education is in crisis.

[00:08:58] These are things that we have to do if we want to continue to be a great nation. And if we don't take care of all of the people in the most broad way possible, right? It will never be perfect.

[00:09:11] But if we don't allow access, if we don't provide for the basic liberties of of Americans, we're going to fall. And I think that's really where this this sort of level of right wing Christianity is taking us. Yeah. Well, you know, I asked those two questions

[00:09:32] to set up what I believe is going to be a compelling and informing informing conversation with our guests today. And I asked those questions also because there are those and I'm going to read this because I don't want to mess it up.

[00:09:46] But there are some that frame the US as a Christian country whose politics and institutions should be guided by Christian principles. In other words, they want the government to promote a specific cultural template as the official culture of the country.

[00:10:04] And our guest has plenty to say about that. So let's get him set up during the break to have a great conversation. We'll be right back. Do you love news about LinkedIn, indeed Google and just about every other recruitment tech company out there?

[00:10:19] Hell, yeah. I'm Chad. I'm cheese. We're the Chad and cheese podcast. All the latest recruiting news and insights are on our show. Dripping in snark and attitude. Subscribe today wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out. All right, so welcome back.

[00:10:39] I am excited to introduce our guest, Dr. Andrew Whitehead, who is an associate professor of sociology and co-director of the Association of Religion Data Archives, the world's largest online religion data archive at the Center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at my alma mater,

[00:11:00] Indiana University Purdue University, Indianapolis. His research focuses on how religion both shapes and is shaped by contemporary American culture. He is the lead author of Taking America Back for God, Christian nationalism in the United States, which won the 2021 Distinguished Book Award from the Society

[00:11:20] for the Scientific Study of Religion. What a bio. Dr. Whitehead, welcome to Crazy in the King. Oh, thank you. It's it's really good to be with you both. Absolutely. Dr. Whitehead, now let me ask you this. You know, we're going to get the the formalities out the way.

[00:11:36] Do we call you Dr. Whitehead? Are you OK with us calling you Andrew? Is there another nickname because I mean, I look high and low. I searched that here's what's funny. I actually searched for Dr. Andrew Whitehead nickname couldn't find anything. That's hilarious. Couldn't find anything.

[00:11:55] So I said at least we're going to ask him in the beginning. You know, how do we refer to you? We certainly want to give you all of the deference that you have earned in our so deserving. Thank you for joining us for real.

[00:12:08] Yeah, no, no, thank you. Andrew is is wonderful. But yeah, thank you. That's what things so I think about anthropologists and, you know, they have long known that public displays really are common for helping us to craft identities.

[00:12:25] The US is, you know, is very evident with their holiday parties, with our thematic parades, with our celebratory events and different things that we do throughout the entire year. Tell us in your opinion, you know, what is Christian nationalism and is it a problem with people expressing that

[00:12:49] the same way that they express some of these other noted marked events? Yeah, no, that's a great question. Yeah, so Christian nationalism as we define it in our work and in the book, we highlight it as a cultural framework that idealizes and advocates

[00:13:09] for a fusion of a particular expression of Christianity. So you can put a little asterisk by Christianity with American civic life. So it combines a number of different elements. The first element is a strong sense of moral traditionalism based on creating and then sustaining social hierarchies.

[00:13:30] And a lot of times these revolve around gender and sexuality. The second element is a comfort with authoritarian social control. So the world is a chaotic place. And at times society needs strong rulers, generally men, right, to take control

[00:13:50] and either under the threat of violence or to enact violence, maintain order. And then the final element is a desire for strict ethno-racial boundaries around national belonging, civic participation, basically who is a true American? And so a Christian nation in quotes, according to Christian nationalism,

[00:14:14] is generally understood to be one where white natural born citizens are held up as the ideal with everyone else coming after it. Isn't as though other groups can't live and operate and participate in a sense? But those with the privileged access to political power, social belonging,

[00:14:35] all of those things is a very particular group of people. So when we're talking about Christian nationalism, it really is a white Christian nationalism. It upholds and supports whiteness where, again, as our social hierarchy is structured, where white Americans have the most access or at least unquestioned access

[00:14:56] to the social sphere and political power. Now, one thing that you said that I want to come back to is identity, right? And the power of narrative and tradition and ritual in what we do and how we do it to define who we are.

[00:15:11] And that's what white Christian nationalism is really about, is identifying this is who we are. This is what we're all about. This is where we should go and this is how we should get there as a nation. So cultural frameworks like Christian nationalism,

[00:15:24] you can understand them really as the scaffolding around which human interaction in society's form. So they tell us stories about, again, who we are and where we should go and how we should get there and the symbols and narratives

[00:15:37] and traditions that dramatize those values that we should hold dear. A lot of times we don't even notice them. And to the extent that we don't, that's when they're most powerful, right? And so in this country, this unspoken assumption of,

[00:15:52] you know, this is what we should be and how we should look. White Christian nationalism plays a very strong role we find over and over in organizing Americans' views on what should be and how we should get there.

[00:16:06] So I am reminded, you know, as I make a quick note in our show notes, I'm reminded right now of a statement by Lee Atwater in what I believe to be the early 70s. Here's how I would approach that issue as a statistician or a political scientist.

[00:16:24] Or no, as a psychologist, which I'm not, is how abstract you handle the race line. In other words, you start out and now you're going to quote me. You start out in 1954 by saying, nigger, nigger, nigger. By 1968 you can't say nigger, that hurts your back wire.

[00:16:44] So you say stuff like forced fussing, mistakes, rights and all that stuff. And you're getting so abstract now you're talking about cutting taxes and all of these things you're talking about are totally economic things and the byproducts I've made is blacks get hurt worse than white.

[00:17:02] And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract and that coded that we're doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me? Because obviously sitting around saying

[00:17:17] we want to cut taxes, we want to cut this and we want is much more abstract than even the busing thing. And they have a lot more abstract than they were there. So anyway you look at it, race is coming on the back of our.

[00:17:35] And basically what Leigh Atwater said, you know, back in that statement and I'm paraphrasing it, but you can't say certain things explicitly. And what I just heard you say was, you know, this nationalism while they won't say that it's for white men and or white people.

[00:17:55] It is clumped in the Second Amendment. It is clumped in words like patriotism. It's clumped in, you know, subversive, if you will, or softer language, softer description, softer illustration. The dulcetones of how we describe what it is. And to me, that's a bit dangerous nefarious.

[00:18:24] Am I am I being hyperbolic? No, no, you're not. And I think this is the really interesting part, too, of our research. So in the book and in other research we do, you know, I'm a sociologist

[00:18:36] and a lot of my work focuses on looking at large nationally representative surveys of the American public. And so when we measure Christian nationalism among Americans, what we do is we ask a handful of questions like how strongly they agree

[00:18:53] or strongly disagree on a scale with questions like the federal government should declare the U.S. a Christian nation or should advocate Christian values or the United States plays a special role in God's plan for the world.

[00:19:10] And in all of these questions, not one of them do we mention race, right? It's all about how they think Christianity or God or religion should be a part of our public sphere. But what we find over and over when we combine those questions together

[00:19:28] and create our Christian nationalism scale, if people are on the upper end of that Christian nationalism scale and we ask them questions about race in the United States, like how strongly they agree that interracial marriage

[00:19:42] should be legal, we find that those on the upper end are much more likely to oppose interracial marriage than those at the lower end of the Christian nationalism scale. When we talk about transracial adoption, those at the upper end

[00:19:56] of the Christian nationalism scale are more likely to oppose adopting outside your race than those at the lower end of the scale. When we talk about the use of deadly police force and you know, whether black Americans that die at the hands of police

[00:20:14] are they dying because they're more violent? Those at the upper end of Christian nationalism scale say that the reason that black Americans die at the hands of police more often is because they're more violent, so more racist understanding of police violence in the black community.

[00:20:31] When we talk about structural inequality or why wealth is unequally distributed in the US, those at the upper end of the Christian nationalism scale are more likely to say it's because of individual shortcomings among racial minorities. Rather than the effects of slavery, Jim Crow or historic structural inequality.

[00:20:53] So those are just a couple, but across all these different studies, what we find over and over is that for Americans that strongly embrace Christian nationalism, especially for white Americans, we're not asking them about race when we talk about Christian nationalism, but it is inextricably tied to race.

[00:21:11] And so that's where we, you know, identified as a white Christian nationalism that it really essentially cloaks these racialized understandings of American society in religious rhetoric. And as you said, I think really well is that they can talk about what we want to be a Christian nation,

[00:21:32] but with it comes all that cultural baggage, right? Of racial inequality and racialized views. And so as we look through our history, the rhetoric used by the KKK is the same where they want to protect a Judeo Christian culture, right? And they had very explicit views.

[00:21:49] Now not every American who embraces Christian nationalism is a white nationalist. But that rhetoric is the same. And so a broad acceptance of Christian nationalism creates fertile ground where extremism like the KKK or white nationalism can take root and flourish.

[00:22:07] And so yeah, we have to be really careful when we talk about trying to institutionalize a particular expression of Christianity with American civic life because it comes with a lot of these other racialized understandings for white Americans. Wow, that was that was awesome.

[00:22:26] I guess I you know, again, as someone who sort of grew up not sort of definitely grew up in the church and grew up with a belief that you know, there should be a Christian nation, all the things that you're talking about.

[00:22:39] You know, I read an article that you wrote in time last year that 30 million Americans strongly, strongly embraced Christian nationalism. How do we who are outside the church kind of or as as, you know, scientists, academics, how do we distinguish Christian nationalism from Christianity itself?

[00:23:05] Because I think it's important that we recognize and say not all Christians are Christian nationalists. That that's not a blanket statement that anyone should be using. And I think it's easy to get in that habit. Right. Yeah, no, that's a great point and great question.

[00:23:20] So yeah, when when we do our work, I think it's really helpful to talk in terms of Christian nationalism, like the ideology and try not to label anybody a Christian nationalist. Because a lot of times when we label right, it just shuts

[00:23:33] down either they're saying, well, yes, I am and I'm not going to listen to you or they don't know what that term is. And so I think talking about the ideology is key because then we can talk about ideas.

[00:23:43] And and I think too, we can talk then about implications of those ideas, right? So we can look at the evidence and say, hey, when we strongly embrace this understanding of Christian nationalism, those folks are more likely to ignore racial inequality or are more likely to ignore gender

[00:24:05] equality and all these things that for most folks, they might be supportive of generally. And so when we talk about Christian nationalism, I think there's kind of two sides to the same coin regarding your question. So Christian nationalism as ideology, it is in some

[00:24:24] cases rampant within white Christianity, right? So in the White Evangelical Church or even white mainline or white Catholicism, there are a lot of Americans in those religious communities that do embrace Christian nationalism to some extent. But as you point out, not all. Right.

[00:24:41] And so it is somewhat separate, but Christian nationalism in the US wouldn't exist without the white church, right? Generally. And so they are just strongly intertwined. But we have groups so like 20% of white evangelicals oppose Christian nationalism and larger numbers within white mainline or white Catholic churches.

[00:25:04] But by and large, you know, most of those folks do embrace it. So when we're talking about Christianity, I think a really important point is that the Christianity of Christian nationalism, we shouldn't ever say that, oh, they're not real Christians. They are, right?

[00:25:19] It's that this expression of Christianity, it's a particular type brings with it all these other cultural beliefs and really cultural baggage that has been intertwined with it. But there are other expressions of Christianity that oppose that. So one is the Black Church, Historic Black

[00:25:36] Church in the US, right? Those expressions of Christianity, they might even agree that the US should be a Christian nation. But in their terms, they're looking at it as though, hey, if we were truly Christian, we would treat everybody equally, right?

[00:25:49] We would have equal rights for all people. That's a very different expression of Christianity than the Christianity of Christian nationalism, which wants to kind of uphold racial hierarchies and differences in access to power. And so I think, you know, broadening our view

[00:26:08] of the different expressions of Christianity is really key because I think a lot of times, and I'm sure you both have seen this in the media, when people talk about religious Americans or Christianity, they're usually just speaking to white, religiously and politically conservative folks.

[00:26:25] And that's the Christianity that we see over and over. But there are a lot of different expressions of Christianity. And so recognizing, you know, the religious left or the historic Black Church, these are other expressions. And I think that's part of the way that we

[00:26:38] find, we can find our way out of this mess in some sense is, yeah, is that there are more expressions that lay aside the dangerous aspects of white Christian nationalism? You know, speaking of finding our way out of this mess, I do love your insertion around

[00:26:59] ideology over labels, ideology over labels. And to that end of finding our way out of this mess, Julie mentioned, geez, what did you mention earlier in the show, Julie? It's going to come to me in a moment. But you mentioned Andrew number of data

[00:27:18] points and studies and surveys that you all have done. And what you found versus the one end of the spectrum versus the other end, whether it be around racism, transnational adoption of babies, you found a number of different examples that separate them,

[00:27:37] that clearly mark them in a particular camp. Are there some other examples that are currently happening right now through Christian nationalism that are having an impact on the trajectory of how we are as a country, society, world, maybe? Yeah. Yeah. Great question. And truly there are.

[00:28:01] So right now we're living through a moment when we look back just a year and a half ago in January 6th and the instruction at the Capitol in response to the big lie that the election was stolen even though we had a fair and free election.

[00:28:19] So when we look at the Capitol insurrection, we're finding that Americans who embrace Christian nationalism as we move further away from January 6th are becoming more supportive of the insurrectionists and possibly the use of political violence if the outcome isn't in their favor.

[00:28:42] And so a redefining of what happened January 6th is ongoing among those Americans that strongly embrace Christian nationalism. And so that's really dangerous, right? As we look back, you know, the Civil War, even the lost cause, right? Where there was this redefinition of what it was all about.

[00:28:59] That is still influential today. And so we see that taking place. Another aspect is threats to democracy and whether all Americans should have access to the vote, right? Because having access to the vote, being able to give voice to where you want to see your state,

[00:29:18] community, the country go is obviously fundamental to democracy. And we find over and over Americans who strongly embrace Christian nationalism, who in the book we call ambassadors there at the very upper end of the scale. They're more likely to deny that voter suppression is a problem.

[00:29:36] They're more likely to believe that the US makes it too easy to vote. They're more likely to believe that voter fraud is rampant, even though there's no evidence of that. They're more likely to support laws that would disenfranchise Americans who might have committed certain crimes and saying they

[00:29:54] should never be able to vote again. And so there are real threats to this understanding of what democracy is and who should be able to participate in it. And again, those are, I think, pushing folks to say that only a particular type of American should be able

[00:30:13] to fully participate. And again, that comes down to white, natural born, religiously and politically conservative Christians. So again, enshrining this very particular expression of Christianity as what should be kind of highlighting where we are as a nation and what we're all about. So

[00:30:34] I think one thing that you said kind of caught me right. So we often, I think at least I'll speak for myself when I think of Christian nationalism, I think of a violent movement and I think we've seen that come out and play and be more

[00:30:46] predominant over the last five to six years, at least in my lifetime. But I have to assume that there are also I'm going to use the word passive, even though I don't know if that's the right word, passive Christian nationalists who really empower and reinforce the more violent

[00:31:07] tendencies of Christian nationalism and allow it to continue to exist. Can you speak to kind of how someone who is nonviolent but is quietly supportive, how they have that kind of impact on our democracy and the empowerment of more violent, extreme nationalists? Yeah, no, that's a great point

[00:31:32] and I think is so important to this conversation is that you know, as we look at our book again, Americans are spread all across this scale, right? With some strongly rejecting Christian nationalism, some resisting it. Then we have this group that we call accommodators.

[00:31:47] So they're right above the mean, but they aren't our ambassadors that are the very upper end of the scale. But these accommodators are folks when we interviewed them and we share kind of their words in the book. I think Christianity is obviously a good influence in American

[00:32:02] society, should play a role. They wouldn't go so far as to say other religious groups shouldn't be able to participate or have influence. But generally they see Christianity as a positive force. But I think what you're highlighting is so important because you know, Jomar Tisby and his

[00:32:23] work, he wrote the really great book, The Color of Compromise, looking at the historical white church and how it played a role in perpetuating racism throughout its whole throughout the history of the US. He talks about it in terms of, you know, you could be standing

[00:32:40] on a moving walkway at the airport and you might be standing still, but it's still carrying you somewhere. You may not actively be walking forward, but you're still moving with it. And in the same way when we look at in this particular example, let's say racism

[00:32:54] in the US, you could be embracing Christian nationalism as an accommodator, so not strongly. But you're not speaking out against those more violent or racialized elements. And so our country is a moving walkway. It's pushing us this way. So you may not actively

[00:33:12] be walking that way, but you're still being carried along. It's only when we turn around and actually start trying to walk against the moving walkway that we're going to make any progress. And so for those folks that quietly embrace Christian nationalism or don't want to

[00:33:27] speak out, I think that's what creates this kind of fertile ground where the extremism can take root. I think Americans will have to try and turn around on that walkway as Jamar Tisby talks about and try to move the other way, which means recognizing Christian nationalism

[00:33:45] speaking out against it, saying that no, we don't have to enshrine this particular expression of Christianity, but that we should welcome Americans of all faiths or no faith to the table. And they should all have a voice. They should all be a part of it.

[00:34:00] We don't have to codify, again, this particular understanding of Christianity. And so it's only when we do that specifically, right? And on purpose kind of thinking in terms of your question that we're able to then, you know, essentially point out that this group on the far end that

[00:34:18] that can resort to violence or maybe wants to is not who we are. But if we quietly just accept it, then those more violent or extremist elements can still exist and find yeah, opportunities to to do the work that they want to do in our culture.

[00:34:37] You know, I'm actually processing Jay, I want you to stay on frequency. I want you to push the next question because I'm processing what Dr. Whitehead just said and you know, part of the challenge that I am. And when I use the word challenge,

[00:34:59] let me frame it in the sense of I am forcing myself. I am being sort of devil's advocate, if you will, because that's a familiar phrase. I am listening to what you are saying and I'm asking myself but there would be some who would say there's nothing wrong

[00:35:17] with me being that passive Christian nationalist. There's nothing wrong with that. There are some that would say but I don't have to be extremely vocal and animated around being an anti-racist that it's OK for us to push back against critical race theory and having cartoons that have

[00:35:42] LGBTQ parents and I were removing certain books around the Holocaust from reading lists. It is OK for us to be and I'm not a bad person. We're not bad people. Right. I am processing what you are saying. Because you hit on so much, you know, from an institutional

[00:36:08] standpoint, structural standpoint, systemic standpoint and the whole escalator or what do you call that thing at the airport? Example by Jamar Tisby compelling. Yeah. And so I guess I do want Julie to ask a question, but I'm going to in my pushing back and challenge,

[00:36:33] how much do you believe what you just said? Right. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, one thing that I want to make clear to is that we're all on a journey, right? And so when we look at this evidence, so I've been studying this for 15 years,

[00:36:49] but I have my own personal journey with this, too. So having grown up in a white, evangelical church tradition where yeah, race wasn't talked about, right? It just wasn't a part of it. And in any sort of talk about, you know, racial justice, that's politics.

[00:37:05] That isn't anything to do with the gospel or, you know, the kingdom of God or anything like that. And so I've been on a journey for a while, right? And so, too, there's an aspect of for most folks,

[00:37:18] I don't want it to come across as like you've got to understand this, you know, after one podcast and you've got to be on board, but you need to explore. And so I think that's the hope is an invitation to say,

[00:37:31] well, yeah, I hear this talk of a Christian nation or you hear politicians use this rhetoric. What are they saying? What are they actually going to when they paint the other side of the aisle as evil and against God's will? What does that mean for democracy, right?

[00:37:48] Where we're supposed to share power and compromise to find a way forward for everyone to flourish. And so I think that's the hope is for me when I start to see what Christian nationalism, you know, saying that the government should advocate Christian values,

[00:38:04] should declare the US a Christian nation. When I see what those beliefs are associated with regarding race, gender, violence, you know, fear or disdain towards immigrants and refugees, even Christian refugees. That's where I start to say, OK, there's something going on here

[00:38:26] because that doesn't look like the gospel where, you know, all should be welcome and be able to flourish. You know, so these other expressions of Christianity that, you know, want to see to see folks be able to to live and flourish and work together.

[00:38:44] And so I think that's a big part of it. So yeah, I as some would, you know, maybe say, well, I think these things, but I, you know, am not racist or these other things. That's not the message that I hope they take away from this.

[00:39:02] But just understanding that while we may not personally be we made, you know, I didn't personally create this society where racial minorities don't have the same opportunities as white Americans, but I still benefit from it. And so learning more about that and how to

[00:39:24] try to hear the voices of those who have had very different expressions or experiences is mine. Learn how I can support them, how I can come alongside or to follow their lead. Those are things that I want to be able to do.

[00:39:38] And I think in a pluralistic democratic society where all should should have a say, we have to be committed to that. And so it's a journey and a process. And that's what I would hope, hope folks would would see is that you have time.

[00:39:52] You don't have to have anything decided or figured out today. But it is important because people are being harmed and losing their lives or their livelihoods because of this. And so it is important for us to figure it out, especially

[00:40:09] if we want to see our democracy continue on, which in some ways it is under attack. So yeah, hopefully that kind of gets at your your question and what we're thinking about. Yeah, I think it absolutely does. And I think you hit on a couple of different things.

[00:40:26] You know, what are the forces at play right now in our society, which make us, I don't want to say uniquely, but make us vulnerable to the allure of a Christian nationalism, nationalism ideology. Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, a couple of things.

[00:40:48] So Christian nationalism is an ideology is so powerful because again, you know, going back to something we talked about earlier in our conversation is that it really is a powerful tool to tell us who we are, right, to give us an identity, a collective identity and any group

[00:41:05] the quickest way to know who we are is to know who we're not, right? To say, well, we're not that. And so in times of social change and upheaval, which we're living through, right, racial demographics are changing in our country over the past decades.

[00:41:20] Religious demographics have been changing for decades. So it is a different looking country than it was 50, 60 years ago. And so for some Americans, they look at that and and they might fear that or fear, have a sense of threat. And so in times of social upheaval or change,

[00:41:37] cultural frameworks like Christian nationalism are kind of readily available for some groups to say, well, we should try to stop this change. We need to go back. We need to be who we were, right, so that people can feel comfortable not have to deal with that change.

[00:41:53] And so it isn't as though we should ignore the fact that change is happening around us, but I think we have to be really wary of people or groups that want to say, hey, this change needs to be opposed no matter what.

[00:42:11] And we need to ensure that we maintain access to power and it is a battle of good and evil. All these terms, right, they get wrapped up in Christian nationalist rhetoric. We have to be careful of that, because again,

[00:42:24] that's where those that are on the margins get harmed because they're denied access. And so yeah, it isn't as though change or it isn't scary or can can create upheaval. But when we look towards ideologies like Christian nationalism

[00:42:43] that are kind of hinging on keeping others out of power without a saying society, that's where the danger comes. And so that's where we have to kind of be aware and listen to those things. You actually reinforced one of the questions that I was going to ask

[00:43:00] as we wrap up this segment, you know, what was one of the takeaways that you wanted to make sure listeners key then on? And I want to reiterate that you said about three, four minutes ago

[00:43:14] that we don't expect you to have it all buttoned up after one podcast. And when you say one podcast, it could be this one with Julie and I here, crazy and the king, it could be a person who has listened to 10 different podcasts, a number of episodes.

[00:43:34] More importantly, you said a journey that we are all on together. I absolutely love that you frame it that way, that it's not a destination, that it is absolutely a journey. My final question for you, Andrew, is this. You've got questions. We've got answers.

[00:43:54] Business leadership, ownership and sales can be challenging. Tune into the Accelerate Your Business Growth podcast to learn from the world's experts. Join me, your host, Diane Helbig, as I chat with people who have expertise in various areas of business.

[00:44:12] You'll enjoy the lively conversations that are focused on providing you with the ideas, tips and suggestions you need to realize greater success. Get what you need for your business, when you need it, from the people who have the answers.

[00:44:27] Accelerate Your Business Growth is part of the Evergreen Podcast Network and is available on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. And it may be a bit invasive, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Choose not to answer it. Totally your choice. Yeah.

[00:44:46] You've earned your right. You totally your choice. But when you think about the 15, you know, close to 20 years of work that you've done in this space, when you think about your matriculation through being a teen, where'd you grow up by the way? Northern Indiana actually. Okay.

[00:45:04] The Michigan border. Yeah. And is that where KKK country is? Is it close to KKK country? Yeah. Indiana has a history of that. Yeah, there's some counties around Indianapolis, but yeah, Northern Indiana, a neighboring county, I think did have, yeah, it was quite a stronghold. Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:45:23] Okay. Got it. So 15 years body of work, your matriculation through and up into adulthood, something that you've never said publicly before that you have uncovered. When you think about all of that, something that you've never said publicly before. That's a yeah, that's a really good question.

[00:45:46] I would probably need more time to think about that. Well, you know, one thing I'll say so this is I'm not trying to dodge, but in some ways you could you can interpret it that way. But so I'm working on my next book, which is written to Christians

[00:46:05] about Christian nationalism. And so it'll it'll come out next August. But it is it's not academic and it's sharing a bit of my story and then looking at the research on Christian nationalism and then, you know, making a case for. Americans, Christians to move towards expressions of Christianity

[00:46:28] that oppose Christian nationalism and are focused on the flourishing of of all folks, whether they're Christian or not or even religious or not, that Christians should be a part of the work of flourishing in society. That doesn't mean we have to enshrine again this particular expression of Christianity.

[00:46:46] So in that book, I do share some of my own personal stories as growing up in, you know, the white Christian church and in a very white part of the US conservative politically religiously part of the US.

[00:47:00] You know, those different moments that kind of poked holes in in the veil that had me starting ask questions. Right. So like when we talk about wanting to go back, well, you know, going back to the good old days were those days good for everybody.

[00:47:17] So as a white male, I can go all the way back in the history of the US any decade you want. And I'm going to be fine, right? But you don't have to go too far back to where, you know, African American brothers and sisters couldn't vote.

[00:47:35] Don't have to go too much further back than my female sisters can't vote. Don't have to go too far back to where we see right slavery and Jim Crow and all these things to where if I grew up in a different

[00:47:50] racial socioeconomic group, if I was born in that group, I would have had a very different experience. And so growing up and starting to ask those questions and thinking about, well, if we were always a Christian country, why did we treat indigenous Americans the way that we did?

[00:48:10] Why did we enslave and and steal people from their country and bring them here and enslave them? Why did we, you know, keep women from full access to power and politics and the social culture? So these are questions I think that I started to ask.

[00:48:32] And and so that's something that I haven't I haven't ever really shared my personal journey that I will obviously next time, but I'm doing that a little bit here, too. That that was a part of me trying to come to terms with,

[00:48:46] well, what is Christianity? What does it mean to me? And what should it mean for us as people of faith? Are we living out the gospel? What is the gospel of Jesus? What does that look like?

[00:48:59] Those are things I had to wrestle with and it's been a part of my journey. And so, yeah, just wanting to invite other people, whether they're Christian or not, or they know Christians or not in the faith anymore, of no faith at all.

[00:49:10] We have to find a way to live and work together. And so that's what I want to be a part of is ensuring the flourishing of of all my neighbors, not just the neighbors that look like me or believe like me. So I don't know.

[00:49:26] Hopefully that gets your question. So I have a few people I'm going to send that book to but also look forward and looking forward to reading it myself. Please let us know when it gets published next year. We'd love to have you back on the show.

[00:49:38] We're already planning a couple other times to have you on the show. So you may become a regular around here. We're going to hop to our last ad break and jump in for her voice segment where Dr. Whitehead is going to join us as well.

[00:49:54] Welcome, change agents, to your go to place for stories that ignite your spirit, fuel your purpose and connect us all. We believe in the incredible power of the human spirit, its boundless resilience and the inspiration it brings to our lives on the driving change podcast.

[00:50:10] We'll journey together through the extraordinary yet very relatable experiences of some of the most amazing people on earth. Our mission that through these stories, we might just spark change within you and awaken a newfound motivation to harness your unique gifts to make a real difference in the world.

[00:50:29] So get ready to be inspired and join us on this incredible adventure. You can find the driving change podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio or wherever you love listening to your favorite podcast. Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. An incredible conversation.

[00:50:51] This is where we do her voice, where we amplify women that are making moves, women that are making moves. First up this week is Tamara Van Dyken. She actually drafted worship wars, gospel hymns and cultural engagement in American evangelicalism for the period of 1890 to 1940.

[00:51:14] Put some context around that. Her article argues that gospel hymnity, I'm sorry, gospel hymnity was integral to the construction of modern evangelicalism through an analysis of the debate over worship, music and three denominations, the Methodist Episcopal Church, the Christian Reformed Church and the Reformed Church in America.

[00:51:38] During that period, she reveals how worship music was essential to the negotiation between churchly tradition and practical faith between institutional authority and popular choice that characterized the 20th century liberal conservative divide. That was a mouthful. Next we have Kristin Cobes-Dumez,

[00:52:03] who is a New York Times bestselling author and professor of history and gender studies at Calvin University. Her most recent book is Jesus and John Wayne, How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation. You can follow her at KKDUMEZ on Twitter.

[00:52:21] And speaking of following individuals on Twitter, Dr. Andrew Whitehead is also on Twitter. He's at NDrew. He took the A off so he's at Andrew Whitehead on Twitter. Now, here's why I am smiling, because as we were preparing for the show in this segment, we amplify women.

[00:52:45] And I know at the top of the show, I made a joke around doing a Google search in reference to Andrew, Dr. Whitehead and a nickname. But on a serious note, I did a Google search looking for women that had some relationship to religious

[00:53:05] and cultural implications and impact. And all I just used a variety of different phrases. And I struggled to find the two women that I came up with. So Dr. Whitehead, before you give us the third person in her voice,

[00:53:22] is it because there is an absence of women in this space? Or am I just not putting the right terminology in Google? You know, those are that's a great question. We'll have to get an expert on, you know, the Google algorithms and stuff

[00:53:38] because I do think that's a part of it. But yeah, there's no absence of women. Honestly, you said come up with one. But, you know, in my journey or even in my next book, there are a lot of women in their writings that have really been influential.

[00:53:51] So I might list a couple names. I'll highlight the first one here, Ruth Bronstein. So she's a fellow sociologist. She's associate professor at the University of Connecticut. She wrote a great book called Profits and Patriots, Faith and Democracy Across the Political Divide.

[00:54:10] And then she's had some great work looking at the religious right, the religious left, the rise of secularism, you know, trying to understand all these religious movements contemporary to U.S. So she's really great. She's on Twitter too. You can follow her.

[00:54:27] She leads a democracy lab there at UConn. So we're kind of colleagues and her work's been influential and so really want to boost her. She's great. You know, for my next book, which is titled American Idolism, American Idolatry, there are a couple of women

[00:54:47] who wrote books that have been really influential. So one is Sarah Bessie. She's written a number of books. Jesus Feminist is one. Another one that I keep coming back to is called Out of Swords. And so for folks that maybe grew up Christian

[00:55:01] who are on a journey and trying to make sense of the Christianity we were handed versus maybe, you know, what we hope to see Christianity look like now, that's a great book, you know, talking about the Kingdom of God and what that means. Another name is Caitlyn Sheece

[00:55:19] and I think I have her last name right. She wrote a book called The Liturgy of Politics and so again this is written to Christians but thinking about how political participation really does form us spiritually

[00:55:32] and how the flourishing of all people is a part of our kingdom work as Christians and so that's a really great one. And the final one, I could go on but I'll just stick with these three, is Cat Armis

[00:55:45] and she wrote her book is on women who have been marginalized throughout scripture. It's called Abulita Faith and so she's looking and doing theology. It's really engaging but you know through the lens of, you know, for her as a religious minority

[00:56:08] and I mean a racial minority in the US and her, you know, her grandfather came from Cuba her grandma and grandfather came from Cuba and just their whole experience and so looking at Christianity through the lens of, you know, racial minorities

[00:56:24] and those who have been marginalized and so that's really powerful. For me as a white man, right, I've never been marginalized in Christianity or in America and so I think listening to those conversations and being formed by them have been really helpful.

[00:56:39] So yeah, those three, well four, Ruth Bronsty, Sarah Bessie, Cat Armis and then Caitlin Sheath those are the ones that right now are really forming me. And as a woman, let me just take a second and say thank you so much

[00:56:54] for amplifying the voices of the women who work alongside you who've influenced you, who are your peers. Dr. Andrew Whitehead, author of Taking America Back for God, Christian Nationalism in the United States Thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, it's really good to be with you.

[00:57:12] Thank you for the work you all are doing. Julie and I close reminding each and every one of you to share the pod with your digital tribe to find your voice, be a better human. Let's create better workplaces, stronger cultures

[00:57:28] keeping in mind that the ROI of D&I is greater humanity for now, J&I. See ya. We'll have now to the Jim Stroud pod.