‘The powerless have nothing but their stories to offer’

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter, I'm Ashraf Engineer. It's rare but every once in a while you come across a book that you hadn't heard of before which you pick up on a lark and it simply blows your mind. It delights you, saddens you, angers you but more than anything else it embraces you and carries you along as it flows. I didn't know much about City on Fire, a boyhood in Laligarh and I didn't have any expectations from it. After all so much has been written about the communal fault lines in India especially since 2014 and I wondered whether there was anything

[00:00:29] new left to say. But City on Fire proved to be different. It's a memoir of a boyhood spent in Laligarh and it's an emotional roller coaster. It talks about the pains associated with growing up of joy and grief and loss and evolution. But I think its greatest success is in portraying how the relationship between Indian Hindus and Muslims ebbs and flows at once symbiotic and conflicting. It's easily one of the best most insightful books I've read in the past few years and I'm delighted to have this author on this show.

[00:01:05] Zeyad Masroor Khan is the author of City on Fire and is a journalist and writer based in New Delhi. The book, published by HarperCollins, was the winner of the Best Non-Fiction Jury Award at the CrossFit Book Awards 2024. In a decade-long journalistic career, Zeyad has worked with national and international media publications like Reuters, Weiss, Brute and Deccan Herald. Three of his documentaries have been screened at international film festivals.

[00:01:28] In 2021, Zeyad was the recipient of the South Asia Speaks Literary Mentorship for Outstanding Emerging Writers from South Asia. Zeyad, welcome. How are you? I'm really happy to be here. We're very, very happy to have you on the show too, Zeyad. So, Zeyad, let's dive right in. First of all, congratulations on the book. And how did the idea come about and how long did it take you to write it?

[00:01:52] So, the idea came in around 2015. I'm working for Reuters. So, my friend, Niyaz Faruqi, he had written his book. So, it's like it's like if someone writes a book in your close mind, then what's going to happen in your mind?

[00:02:15] So, it's like I'm making notes. So, it's like I kept making notes for around five years. So, it was when in 2020, when the pandemic came, there were Delhi riots.

[00:02:44] And after the Delhi riots and during the pandemic, there was so much bitch hunting. Like media just lost everything. Like COVID-19, it was like the unscientific idea. It was like media promoted to promote. So, I just lost a bit of faith in media.

[00:03:07] So, I decided that I think there should be some counter narrative to simplistic ideas which are promoted by the media. So, I decided that I will go back to Aligarh and I will work on my book which I have been thinking about. And I quit my job and pandemic happened. So, I had nothing else to do. I mean, I was cut off from the world.

[00:03:34] So, I thought that it's the time I will write my book. I will write my book. We also have some kind of news that we have seen in Aligarh. It's always been COVID-19, someone has killed someone. So, there were 2-3 incidents that I have heard. So, it's just the kind of news that I have been thinking about. I was growing up when I was growing up, when I was growing up,

[00:04:02] I felt the mood again. So I felt that it was a very good time to write. And if I wasn't even writing, I wouldn't write. This is my love. It will be my love. So then I wrote a book. I remember my old memory. And I thought about it. I thought about it, it will take a lot of ideas.

[00:04:29] But the active, which I have dedicated to, I felt it took me to write two years. And then I felt it took me to rewrite and change. So overall, you can think that I have to take a five years of thinking and a three years of work. I talked about media, that is a pet subject. Pet peeve also, rather. But we'll talk more about that a little down the line. But in the introduction on the flap of the book, there's a telling line. And I quote,

[00:04:59] Zeyad Masrur Khan was only four years old when he realized that an innocent act of playing with a switch near a window, overlooking the street could trigger a riot. Stop quote. What was that incident? And also what it tells me is that both sides are simply waiting to attack the other. And anything will do as an excuse. What's your view? I think, as I think, in any place, as always, I think that it's a bit more progressive.

[00:05:29] more progressive people say that, you know, everything is good in India, and in Muslims, there is no difference between them. Everything is very good. At the other end, the right wing is saying that, it's our enemy, and it's old, it's old, and it's old. So, I think, the truth is always, it's always in the middle of this. If you go to the streets, if you go to the streets, then, it's a country. So, I think,

[00:05:59] yes, it's also that, when there are fights, there are fights, there are many incidents, so, people have to be corrupt, rioters, and they are very common. It's not that common. It's not that common. It's a time when it was very common. But, I think, I think, in the early days, there are no criminal violence, large skin. But, what I'm telling you about, that,

[00:06:28] my house was a switch. This is a matter of 1992, right after the Bible. It was demolished a few days before. After that, in the early days, there was a lot of violence, communal violence. It is said that, 91 people died, it is in records, and, like, only one or two months. There were so many people, who died. You know? And, I was four years old, so,

[00:06:58] this is probably the case that I have written in the book, which I have narrated in the book. So, in my house, there was a small, plug, a switch. So, I thought, that, that, that, that,

[00:07:37] all hell broke loose. I was a huge, I was just, the people, with, the words, that, the people, are so much, that, they, So,

[00:08:29] institutionalized right system which is a sustainable right system. So, this time right here, we understood that the warm weather happens every time. So, here it was like a communal violence. It's very regular. It's like what happens. It's always possible. People have accepted it. They have normalized it. It's always possible. Actually, the normalization

[00:08:59] we are talking about these communal flare-ups that happened but there is also a very quick reconciliation. You have told us in the book that someone's brand new car is burnt but then he's back to normal relations with those who did it in a very short time. So this is very typical of Hindu-Muslim relations in India over the years, isn't it? It's a fiery exchange but there's also a settling down over time and acceptance that there's no changing the fact that we are all part of the same national fabric.

[00:09:26] Look, I think that India has increased two challenges after social media. So it's a lot of people that think that there is a violence or reconciliation. reconciliation is not that there are no mechanisms of reconciliation in Hindu and Muslim

[00:09:54] which is always available. In fact, as I am saying that after 2012-2012 social media has become a binary of left-right and Hindu-Muslim against a binary of other and so on, the first thing happened in a lot of intellectual circles. So, because we have become products themselves,

[00:10:24] so that social media has become so much more and so on. So now we are becoming a product and this binary of Hindu-Muslim and left-right has become so much more all-encompassing. But, it is that if there was a fight, then it would be very easy to solve. It didn't happen to me that if someone has a fight,

[00:10:53] then the Hindu-Muslim is a leader, leader, leader.

[00:11:26] So, if there was a political issue, So,

[00:11:57] I think that when I was 10-20 years ago, the reconciliation has reduced very little. Because it is only a benefit from those politicians who have power, I think that these people are only in conflict and are in power. If it is okay, people will vote for different issues. to vote for.

[00:12:26] I think that the most important thing is that the most political power is maintained as a matter of knowledge. I think that what information is being used is that it is very much governs the political parties and they don't give reconciliation. When there is no involvement, reconciliation will be going. Yeah. Riyad, your writing, it also exudes a great fondness for Ali Gadd.

[00:12:56] Despite the fact that it isn't a very well-kept city, civic services are lacking, it has grown haphazardly as you've described. So, what was it like in your early years? Yeah.

[00:13:48] So, it was the most important thing that people have not so much resources but I can say it that people in their hearts were probably so. It was like that people in the other hand whether Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs or anyone else they were helping others to help themselves. So, it was like that today's so much the differences

[00:14:44] I don't know.

[00:15:14] make the lock workers. Thank you.

[00:15:51] Thank you. Thank you.

[00:16:16] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:16:48] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:22] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:17:52] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. to the media that shows

[00:18:21] that Aligarh if you go to Aligarh or if you go to another place or if you compare to Agra or the area of Matra or Itawa Aligarh is a lot of progressive Aligarh is a much progressive small town than most of the neighboring small towns in Ustupradesh but because it's a minority institution because it is a Muslim dominant town

[00:18:51] it is looked at with various institutions so if a Muslim dominant then it will be very conservative and more surprised but I say yes but it's not that you don't see other places surprised you don't see other places you don't see other places you don't see Aligarh problems which are small town U.P. problems but at the same time A.M.E. is a historic place A.M.E. U.N.E. political awareness for

[00:19:20] Indian Muslims A.M.E. U.N.E. many people did A.M.E. U.N.E. many intellectuals developed A.M.E. U.N.E. heads of state made India India Pakistan Bangladesh and U.N.E. U.N.E. made how many Supreme Court judges came here and how many ministers came here and writers also like Bantu and Shukkai

[00:19:50] are Dhyan Chand here and many people used to major Dhyan Chand and hockey came here and took medal to India. And I think that politics is a big issue here in the US.

[00:20:20] It's a big issue of Aligarh Muslim University. So, I think that AMU, with all its flaws, if it's not in Aligarh, it's a very difficult issue about Aligarh. Absolutely. I want to return to your childhood. And I love how the locality you grew up in, in Uppercourt, was called UK to make it sound cool.

[00:20:46] And there are also the urban legends associated with small towns across India. In the case of Aligarh, there is the Bonar Daku, the dwarf dacoit, who would make his way through little caves and attack his enemies from behind. Of course, this is an urban legend. Could you just recount a little bit of that for us? When I was writing this book, I thought that I'm talking about communal violence. It's a very boring topic. Who should I read?

[00:21:12] So, I think it was a very tragic story. I think that someone would take it to read this book and then just go on to the right. And my mind is so much like anyone. It's like people. So, I thought that I was talking about that Aligarh has an elements. I think that's the historical elements. I think that's the elements. So, if someone has come to Aligarh,

[00:21:36] So, in Ali Gara, the urban legends and rumours and the discussion of the issues, the discussions and the difficulties, if I didn't bring that element inside my book, then I would have a book that's absolutely true actually of all small towns. I mean, why small towns? Even cities. You know, the banter, the meeting up, the gossip, the socialization is so much part of everyday life. Yes.

[00:22:02] It's like journalism, if you look at the conflicts, you see the conflicts. You see the culture. So, I mean, Ali Gara's culture also wanted to see. I mean, only Ali Gara's riots, criminal violence, history, and my life memoir, that I think, if someone read my book about Ali Gara,

[00:22:30] then the culture of Ali Gara becomes more and more. I feel that he's been told in Ali Gara a few days. Absolutely. So, I like that. Yeah. And actually, that comes through a lot when you write very fondly about your home, Farish Manzil. And that home, as you said, was built by our grandfather. But it's not just the structure, right? It's also the people that live in it, your siblings, your parents, a buddy of me. Does it still stand? Tell us about the house a bit.

[00:22:58] I'm still right now talking on this broadcast from this house. I am in Farish Manzil right now. So, of course, it still stands. It's a big house. It was constructed by my grandfather during, you know, in the beginning of the 20th century. And like, there is their brothers and brothers, they both have found a place in Ali Gara. It's a big galaxy, a place in Naleh,

[00:23:27] where nobody wants them. Ali Gara was slowly becoming a city, since they became a city of Alish Manzil. But they had to find a city around the corner. And, they had to find it. I don't know if they could or would... So, maybe they had such a land in the center of it. And they had to find it. So, I think... I feel like I have been 125 years old

[00:23:54] and it is still like that. The house of my house is the same thing which were 100 years old. So, I said that my dad had a house to make this house a shisham. So, that's where I invested. and they had invested in the city's houses and built houses here.

[00:24:21] In that time, we were building houses, so we will build our children and the children. So, it was a very open house. Here are a basement here, there are open areas, I mean, there was a garden that was a small garden. So, it can be cold and the wind comes very well.

[00:24:51] If you have this electricity house, which didn't come in India, it was a house. So, if it's like a house here, if there's no heat in the heat, then the house is still going. So, it was made of that. and there are many many pillars and pillars. It is very symmetrical. The main camera is called the wall camera.

[00:25:21] It says that there are 6 windows, 3 windows and 3 windows. There are 6 windows. It is so open that it can be seen. It is very symmetrical. It seems that you are in the 20th century. It is also the same. And you write very touchingly, I think there is a chapter on how the house changes with the growing needs of the family.

[00:25:51] The family grows and so the house also changes accordingly. And there is a passage on how it was a separate toilet that gave you much happiness rather than so many of the rooms that were then added. So, I mean, what kind of house was built, the old house, many people went after partition. Pakistan, my brother's three or four brothers. My father was a child, and my father was one of the two children.

[00:26:21] We are two children here. So, now it is that these two families were in my portion of the house. So, now it is also that, as they told us, modern families could not accept access and accept. So, every little thing happens to be new things. Like India was changing, then the first one was changing. Now, when we had a drawing room,

[00:26:45] we had a concept of drawing room, which was a major portion. Then, when we had the concept of the house, then some of the houses were changed. After that, it was a washroom. I mean, it was a 95-phase major construction. Then, we had a old washroom

[00:27:14] which had two families shared. It was a very dark and dark rooms. There were two new washrooms in the house. But, when we broke down, there were two new washrooms which were very different. The other, the other, the other shop was not open. There were modern amenities. So, I was very happy to have it. that wow, this is our house completely upgraded. But then, we also had a kitchen,

[00:27:44] so we also had a new kitchen built in our house. Then, after that, we also had a major reconstruction. So, the old area was destroyed by the new areas. Our major area was destroyed. So, this is the same thing that, as India was changing, the old area was changing. And when you read the book, you will have a question about how families change,

[00:28:15] how the country change, and how the houses change. So, one of the similarities, I think you will see these parallels. My opinion was that, if the political times change, how the politics change, how the nations change, how the relations change, how the relations changed. My friends changed the Hindu and Muslims. So, those changes, now you can see them from any point of view.

[00:28:43] If you see that it has been better, some people say that it is not, but it is better than it is. How do you see that? The time is still on its own. So, I want to show them from my book. I want to show them. But, yeah, this is a good time to talk about the lived Muslim experience, the sometimes subtle, the sometimes overt discrimination that is part even of school life. And we've heard so many such incidents in recent times. And there was an experience you had

[00:29:11] for a school performance during Ramzan. And also when you said you idolized Shah Rukh Khan. Could you tell us a little bit about that? It was the thing that I was going to school. I didn't know that in my childhood, one thing is a filter in my mind. It doesn't say it, it doesn't say it. So, I didn't know that in my childhood, it was not a filter in my mind. So, I was just saying anything. I was just saying,

[00:29:42] I was just saying, I was just saying, that's what I'm saying. I was just saying, that's what I'm saying. And now, if you read a book, you will understand that you will understand that it doesn't matter. So, I was also saying that in my childhood, so, it was a lot of, that my teacher asked me once this question, that, that, that, who is your idol? You have to say all. So, I wrote,

[00:30:12] I said, that, that, that was Papa lagi wondered for some Evening beak. So, my teacher told that that that god had two times. Because, then, I responded MUSICshop and Peters, that was also a good influence. I said that I had a good style of Sharo Khan. So she said, and tell me, it's just that Sharo Khan doesn't feel good. It's another actor who's good style.

[00:30:42] So I said that his films are good. His clothes are good. Then I said, I said, I said, I felt good acting. He came from a very small family. So she asked. I said, I felt good because he's Muslim. So my teacher, who wanted me to get this thing,

[00:31:12] because I knew that this is where I am. So why are you minorities? And I don't think that there is no doubt about it. If in America, if someone's black person, Obama or Martin Luther King, if they have inspiration, they have a situation, then they don't do that. I think that they can get good. And if someone is Hindu, he is inspired by Gandhi. If someone is inspired by Nehru, you don't say communal.

[00:31:42] I don't say communal. But if I am a community, if someone is successful, you can see that you are communal. The perspective of the length, which I have been in the book, I have been in the book, that people, the view of Muslims, the lens, the view of Muslims, that is the way that they are corrupted. That Muslims are problematic. So if I am a whole life,

[00:32:10] I am a very harmless human, if I am not doing anything wrong, I have not done anything else. I have not done anything else. I have not done anything else, but I am a very much more than a general discourse. I am a media that I am presenting that you are from some of the aspects. Because there is more money, because there is more money, and the love, and the love, the media, which I am more than that. So if someone is more than that,

[00:32:40] So my teacher took this thing to me and then I got a dance. And then I got a forgiveness. So it was that in school, I had my identity carried my Muslim identity. I used to come and I knew everything. I used to see it. So when I came to school, I was allowed to have a suspicion. And now I'm seeing that there are many incidents. Why do you say discrimination with children? Why do you say discrimination with children?

[00:33:09] In fact, we've had reports of school children being called Pakistanis by their classmates or Nali Ke Keede as someone. You've very eloquently described what happened with you. But how does it impact a child over the long term? I think that these people who are teaching their children, are being disliked by their children. I think that if you are a human being,

[00:33:38] you can't put it in the mind. You can't put it in the mind. You can't put it in the mind. You can't put it in the mind. You can't put it in the mind. You can't put it in the mind. So I feel like,

[00:34:07] I don't know why today. If you have prejudices, or whatever you think, then you can put it in your children open, free-minded, open, free-minded, you can teach them. You can teach them. You can understand the tools of the world. If you have prejudices, then you can teach them. If you are a Muslim child, who will tell me that I will give a nalik of a kid, to my school, then of course, I will feel alienated. In my nation,

[00:34:37] the love for my country, if someone will say that someone will be a Muslim, you are a Muslim, you are a Muslim, you are a nalik of a kid, then you are alienating me. You are killing me. You are killing me. You are killing me. You are murdering me. You are killing me. You are killing me. So that is a thing, I see in general discourse. Also, one thing is that, after the Hindu, majoritarian discourse, they say,

[00:35:07] why do you not do love? If you are Muslim in your heart, what are your thoughts, why do you think? I am saying that, you are alienating ourselves, you are saying that, you are a Muslim, you are a Muslim. You are not a Muslim. You are a Muslim. And then, you are saying that, we are... Of course, one person, somewhere else, has alienated feeling from mainstream.

[00:35:35] This is a psychological fact. If you have any kind of thing, if you have alienation, you will have concept of this, it is this. If you have alienated yourself, if you have alienated yourself, you will say that, you are a bad person. You are a bad person. And then, you will say that, you are a bad person. It is a very funny thing. I feel like, that India, the Hindu, Muslim, the majority of conflict,

[00:36:04] I feel like, that it is a domestic abusive relationship. So, as in a patriarchal set-up, there are such a lot of things. The patriarchal elements are the way. It is a lot of things. It is a lot of things. There are many things. I am a baby. If I take my hand, I can't raise my hand, then, what? My baby is my baby, I can't raise my hand. This is my right. And I am always a good thing. It is my right. And I am always a good thing. I am always a good thing.

[00:36:33] If I am a good thing. I am a good thing. I am always a good thing. I feel like a abusive Hindu conscience, at this time, that we have to kill Muslims. We have to show them second class citizens. We have to say, that you are a country. That is after that, you are the APJ Abul Kalam type. All of us. Everyone. Everyone. You have to accept diversity. You should not accept it. You should be a monolith in a monolith. I should say, that hate is,

[00:37:03] that hate is, that hate is, you are all for kids. You are always saying, that hate is, that hate is a major idea. Hate is a lot of reduce people, And if you are any changes, that you have to hate, or if you are a rich person, or if you are a rich person, they are like this. And the love is, it will enhance people. It will affect people, they are a little bit of love.

[00:37:32] If you are a lover, you are a little bit of love. you are looking at love, and you are a little bit of love. They are all about their love. They are like a badder. They become divine. They become divine.

[00:37:59] and also I think inevitably Muslim ghetto is referred to as mini Pakistan and demarcation is called border but this is not unique to Aligard really, you see this in so many places we've seen this across the country isn't it?

[00:38:51] I think what you're saying is the elite Muslims say that about other Muslims not about themselves that's what you're saying they say about people who live in Muslim ghetto yeah, so the not so fortunate not people not as fortunate as them we are the good Muslims we are the good Muslims we are the good Muslims and the people in the Muslim people who are like this but in that many people have released a book

[00:39:20] so many professors say that that there are no the good Muslims who are the good so many people never go to the ghettos in the ghetto so they have reduced them so they have so they are like Hindu foreign

[00:40:19] Yeah, and I also feel, Zayad, that poor people, if you're desperately poor, whether you're Hindu or Muslim or any other faith, your top priority is survival. I don't think you have the time or the headspace to think about politics or anything of that sort.

[00:41:31] I just want to also refer to, you know, the greatest, the greatest inflection point, if you look at the Hindu-Muslim relations in India after partition. So partition would be the first great inflection point. But after partition, the greatest inflection point would have been the demolition of the Babri Masjid. What happened in Aligarh immediately after that? Like immediately after the Babri Masjid, there were violence. Of course, there was communal violence.

[00:41:57] At that time, RSS was very, very strong in Aligarh. So like at the same time, so like, so they have very, very deep roots in Aligarh, like Hindu-Muslim groups. So at many times, they will inflection. Of course, I don't know what happens in Muslim. But the majority of the people who died eventually were Muslims.

[00:42:25] And most of them, those people were not killed in Hindu-Muslim violence. They were killed by police firing on Muslims. So that is what is the, what is always happened most of the time. That communal violence, like right now, it's like the police will attack on, like if there is a violence. Instead of stopping the violence equally and treating everybody equally, police go to Muslims.

[00:43:02] So, during the writing of the book, when I started looking for references, there were three references on the internet. Ninety, so long ago, they died. And on the internet, there were two-three references. So people, people, they didn't talk about death. Contrary to how to use America,

[00:43:29] America was in Tulsa massacre against the blacks. Thirty-six, thirty-fourty people died around. And they have memorialized that massacre in books, web series, cinema, and museum, because, you know, thirty-fourty people died. And those people, they talk about these things, the old messages. India, I think, is in denial. That we don't have anything here.

[00:44:00] You know, like the same, we don't have to say that it's not up. And that's just the thing that's been made. So, our violence doesn't have to be done. So, that's one thing. And ninety-one people died, and there is a two-three mention on the internet. Nobody really talks about it. Nobody, even the people, if you talk to them, if you talk about the time, the victims of the Bible and the Bible, and their families also have to talk about it. They say, they move on.

[00:44:30] You know, like nobody really talks about people who go away. They are just, they become an elephant in the room, which nobody really talks about. People move on. In India, there is no more time. Life doesn't have that much value. And somebody will care about a relative profile of it ten years ago. Also, Zia, it strikes me in your narrative how disproportionate the trauma is on women. Because they seem to be the most affected. And it's not just by communal clashes,

[00:45:00] but also by the decisions that the men inevitably take, the way the world changes. And the opening chapter, for example, details their utter terror when a post-babri riot happens. And there are aged women, there's your mother, there's a pregnant sister. So, I mean, you know, what do you have to say about that? I think, I think, because like it's mostly men who are showing their masculinity by, you know, violence. And most of the time, the most of the trauma is born by women.

[00:45:30] So, there are more casualties. There are more casualties. There are more casualties. There are more men who are being banned. But the mental trauma, which is also a lot of people, it's a lot of people who have been able to deal with it. And there are physical violence, of course. There are also rapes. This is the truth. if you look at Gujarat fights also there were so many rapes after that so

[00:45:59] there is also like if someone's daughter then the whole world the impact of the mother so some of the children are in their lives only one who remembers a child who was there is the mother who was a child who was very much loved by me so I think you know like

[00:46:28] and also like during that ride that you talk about my sister was pregnant he was 8 months pregnant and you know it was very difficult for her when you know there was an attack on our home on our locality it was very difficult for her to run away so I don't know what happens to so many women who are like pregnant you know how do they have to face a lot of things at the end of the day

[00:46:57] and both sides both sides I think because there are you know like it is it is it is always the men who start the fight it is mostly the women who have to bear the consequences so that's the same still in a legal and like and if you in a legal there are if you look at it like sexual violence there are little instances but it is like that they have killed

[00:47:27] women so it is a lot happened I have seen a little child I have seen an incident with a child killed a child you know right I mean I was like I was like I was like I was like that also happened and I think like and if you see instances from Gujarat it's also like it was like there were many children killed a lot so all of those things are still

[00:47:56] you know that also happened in Aligarh so I can see like if you look at the criminal violence the worst sufferer was the women what were your emotions as you left Aligarh and moved to Delhi I think when I moved to Delhi I was of course I was nostalgic I wanted I was not saying that I did not wanted to leave Aligarh I wanted to leave Aligarh very desperately I wanted to you know explore my horizon

[00:48:26] I wanted to go to a new city learn about the world you know I was in master's I was doing master's in journalism which is one of the fever institutions at that point I wanted to remove this part of me you know like because when you grow up in a ghetto you know Muslim ghetto you want to run away from it you know you want to alienate yourself from that side so that's the thing that culture which I saw in elite Muslims

[00:48:55] who wanted that that that ghetto is that that that's how people made me feel always about it you know you live there you live there like you little little little little little you come to there and we are good people live world so that that element was that I didn't have a lot of love

[00:49:23] I was very happy to have my home when I was in Delhi. Because my home was very good, and the wind was very good, a happy place. That was not possible for me in Delhi. If I would be a lot of a loyal to me, So I can do it. And I had a good home there. So I was nostalgic,

[00:49:52] but I wanted to, I think I wanted to escape the ghetto. That was a predominant feeling. And of course, there too, there were the riots of 2020 after the introduction of the Citizenship Amendment Act. So you couldn't escape that completely. Yeah, I also wanted to escape the communal violence. Because if you go out from Aligarh, you can't escape the place, and you can't escape the place. But when the 2022 riots happened,

[00:50:24] you know, I was in a locality, it was a hijab-dominated locality. And when it was very close to Shaheen Bagh, and there were small incidents of violence against Muslims there in that locality also. So, you know, like during the 2022 riots, of course, like so many people lost their lives in Northeast Delhi, 54 and most of the... You mean 2020 riots? Yeah, 2020 riots. Delhi riots.

[00:50:53] So many people lost their lives there, in Delhi also. So like, of course, I was scared. And like, of course, you know, you can't be in Delhi. I was very confident. And most of the people who were living in Aligarh, journalists, you know, academicians, who I used to meet, you know, you can't be in Delhi. But in when Donald Trump, the United,

[00:51:22] the president of the United States, were visiting New Delhi, a few kilometers away from the people were being butchered on the streets. Their bodies were thrown away in that, floating in the drain. All of that happened. And like, people were being burned to death by using surrender. There was a, there was a whole militia running on the street. Like, where did the militia come from? People say that, brother, there was a lot of outer Delhi, the Hindu fringe elements,

[00:51:52] they were collected there. It was an orchestrated thing. Most of the people who knew what was happening in Jairbris say that it was a program. It was an organized thing. At the same time, I also believe that no, very few riots are spontaneous. Like, and that's what Paul Brack and many people, those who have done studies, are most of the riots happen with the connivance of the authorities. You know, at least,

[00:52:21] even in Ali Ghar, that someone, somebody, somebody, they want to use something, they want to teach a community, some community, some community. Some people teach a lot. You know, we will kill their children and we will burn their shops and whatever. So that, that keeps happening. That, that's the same script that I saw in Ali Ghar was being followed in Delhi. Like, like in Ali Ghar, you know, like if you read the book in, during the 2006 violence, so there was a,

[00:52:51] there was a violence in Ali Ghar and a place called Daiva legally. So, you know, after, like, because there was a communal violence, it's, it's a spontaneous communal violence, in which Muslims recorded for a Muslim majority area, so Muslims were more powerful. But it was, it was not a very big violence. Like, someone's death didn't have, had a letter so that's what happened. Next day, which is my house,

[00:53:21] which is five people who have died, in my area, so like, next day, the militia, Hindu militias supported by fringe groups. They came and attacked our locality. But because it was equal fight, after then they left and police started firing on Muslims. Five, six people lost their lives. One of my friends also died. So that is a script that was also being followed in Delhi.

[00:53:51] Many people who were very close to journalists who were covering, they have written about these things. And I don't know. So right now you cannot really trust, you know, whenever anybody talks about the media. I think just take it, you know, it's entertainment. It's infotainment, you know. It is not information. Like, most people think that it's true in the news. As a journalist, I will tell you that, no.

[00:54:19] As journalists who have been part of the media industry, it's true in the news. It's true in a lot of little. It's true in the news channels. It's true in a news channel. It's true in a lot of news channels. It's true in a lot of news channels. It's true in a lot of news channels. So please, you can leave it to the truth. You can't believe it. You can see it as entertainment. And if not, you can see it. So I think you should watch other entertaining things rather than, you know, just this, you know,

[00:54:46] genocidal talk shows like that are being organized. I have one last question about the book before we move on to other things. So the book could have been one of lament, but it uses humor quite effectively too. How important is it to simply survive? I see humor as the last surviving coping mechanism

[00:55:13] used by marginalized communities all across the world. Because I think humor also arises from tragedy. You know, if you don't see it in your life, you can't do good stuff. If you are shielded. I was also talking to somebody who was a Dalit writer. And he also said, you know, like there is, like even Dalit communities also have a really good humor. So because it is,

[00:55:40] that if you have a project, for example, if I project media as a terrorist, then I can't prove it. If I don't believe it, then I can do it. Right? Right? Yes, brother. Look at me. Look at me. I mean, where is it? Where is it? Tell me. Where is it? Where is it? Where is it? You know. Because if, and that is what is happening right now, because marginalized communities often use humor a lot.

[00:56:11] And, because maybe the poor people, marginalized people, in their lives, there are so many sadnesses, so they can't be lost in sadness. So, the elite people, they can't be lost in sadness when they are in trouble. They feel very victimized. And, when I saw, you know, discrimination, violence, they say, let's see, this is happening. And,

[00:56:40] that is what I saw around, you know, in my locality, always. I mean, sometimes to the point of, uh, point of problematic, being problematic. I mean, people normally say, yes, some people will come, they will kill Muslims, they will go, so it's not happening. So instead of, what's going on? So, I mean, a couple was killed after they were coming from watching Fana and somebody, I know you say that, hey, look, Fana has been watching Fana.

[00:57:11] And I thought, what kind of humor is this? But I don't know. People find like, there is, if you see it, oppressed community, I think that is also a point of denial. It's a survival mechanism almost. Survival mechanism, they deny it. They also deny it. They say that, it's not like that. So, it's a way to deny it. It's a way to survive it. It's a way to get hope. Also, we have to, especially when marginalized, when they are black, they are Dalit, they have to stick together

[00:57:40] at many points. You know? They are very closely associated with each other. So in that sense, that humor thrives. And if you look at, stand-up comedians nowadays, so if you have to see, the stand-up comedians are more, you know, more real than the news. It's like that, there are a lot of news in comedy shows and it's become news comedy. So you look at the Muslim stand-up comedians, some of them are really good.

[00:58:10] Yeah. This is a good point, Zia, to segue to the Muslim experience in India at this moment. I, my view is that the Indian Muslim would not have been under this much pressure since partition. What's your view? I think this is a very, very difficult time for Indian Muslims. There is no denying it. Like, especially after the TNRC, when the state even tried to, you know, take away your citizenship rights. You know, and, and only because

[00:58:40] women came out on the street and sat on the street only that time that, you know, that law was taken back. So, like, the state is trying very hard to tell you that you are not, you know, you do not have any, any part of India. You are not a part of India. You do not have any stake in India. Even though my father spent, is buried in a legal and paid all his life, paid all his taxes here and,

[00:59:10] you know, and, but still you don't have any stake in India. So, that is what is, I think this is a very, and like, there are many ways, there are many ways this commission is going on. I really don't think the economic boycott of Muslims was never that strong as it was happening right now. I mean, many people say, if the Muslim delivery came, then I don't need that delivery. And, I, if the Muslim auto came, then, then,

[00:59:39] I cancel it. There are people who are educated, who are educated, who have gone to foreign universities, who, you know, like, have studied books and everything. They still not have been able to eradicate their hate from their hearts and they carry it as a badge of honor. So that, I find it very difficult to reconcile. Like, I don't know, like, perhaps that's what has happened, you know, in Germany, like, people, like,

[01:00:09] I don't understand how people who are so progressive, you know, they can carry that hate as a badge of honor. So that is happening. Indian Muslims at this point, I don't know, they don't have any political representation. Opposition really doesn't talk about that much. There are, the courts have, like, even the Ram Temple judgment, you know, like, it was a collective conscience that they have been

[01:00:38] a huge disappointment in the last 10 years. Even if you look at, you know, for example, Omar's continuous incarceration, Omar Khali's continuous incarceration, Sharjee Limam's continuous incarceration. But anyway, you know, you mentioned the political representation. We are not even second class citizens. Muslims right now are not even second class citizens. We are a third or fourth class citizens right now. Like, Harsh Mandar talks about

[01:01:08] this concept that eventually they are trying to make us non-human. You know, they are dehumanizing and eventually we will consign to the position of a non-human that is an human. So that is what the state is trying to do. And the media supporting them, I don't know. And so many educated people are supporting them. So that's where the line is going. You mentioned political representation. I mean, it's almost as if, and you said, almost as if 200 million Muslims

[01:01:39] have no say or are made to feel as if they are not part of the country. But it's almost as if the way voting has been panning out now, it's almost as if the Muslim vote also doesn't matter anymore. They are not able to, you know, have any political representation or very little political representation now, despite being 200 million in number in India. see, I think, yeah, like, because, I think at some point because many political, like,

[01:02:08] this is like BJP is dominating, like, the opposition is only struggling hard to survive. And, like, even the BJP, even if they have some Muslim representation, they have removed it slowly, slowly, gradually. All the Muslims who were in their party, even somebody like a Muqtar, Abbas, not free, or Shahnawaz, who have been in BJP for, like, two, three decades. They really don't hold any cabinet or are not in the ministerial positions. No, there is not

[01:02:38] a single elected Muslim representative in the BJP, whether you're talking about the state assemblies or whether you're talking about parliament. There isn't a single one. So, there is a strong, you know, marginalization of Muslim politics, very planned occult on Muslim political representation in India. And, like, so, the only way they can really, you know, thrive or, like,

[01:03:08] come out of it is only through politics. You know, like, nobody really cares about what, you know, what you say. Until, unless you have some political power, you cannot really thrive. At the same time, I also find it very difficult for Muslims to have a political leadership, like what Mayawati did for Dalit in UP. You know, like, because, you know, Dalits could still float a party, but if somebody, if there is any kind of

[01:03:38] Muslim determinism, you know, they are, the popular media will count them post, you know, show them as anti-national. So, that also happens. So, like, that's why Omar Khalid, you know, anybody who tried to talk about politics, he is in jail. Asaduddin Waisi, who still holds, the only Muslim leader, who still holds sway, you know, only because

[01:04:07] he talks very, very, you know, he's a lawyer, he's one of the smartest politicians in India right now. He is, you know, I always say to people that in anything, in anything, be you, are you a writer, you might be a journalist, you might be an artist, you might be a police officer, you might be anyone. Like, as a Muslim right now, engineer, you have to be really, really better than the others if you really have to shine right now. You know, you have to be exceptional

[01:04:37] to be accepted, you know. So, but when you you have accepted, so, so, Asaduddin Waisi has won the best parliamentarian award for like, like, you know, continuous three, four years. He understands the constitution, he only talks about the constitution. He, you know, most of the time he talks to that constitution. So, I think, but at the same time, he also gets a lot of hate, you know. Yeah, it's also, I think, it comes to Ovesi,

[01:05:07] there isn't a pan-India appeal, you know, the way, let's say, Kashiram would have had. But since you mentioned the constitution, the constitution makes it clear that all citizens are equal, but that's not the government's approach. Now, do you think the constitution has been rendered irrelevant by this government? I think, you know, the spirit of the constitution has been rendered useless in the implementation because I think it's most of the time, especially in terms of, in other

[01:05:37] areas, I think it's still kicking, you know, like now courts are giving progressive judgments about homosexuality, about gender, about women, feminism, start promoting, but when it comes to Muslims, you know, no, no, no, you know, like, you're not equal, you're not among the ones who should, can get justice. So that, that is something which is happening. So, I think at this point,

[01:06:08] you know, the only thing anybody can do, you know, constitution, so like, see, at the end of the day, it's only about the political power. If you don't have political power, any law will not be able to help you. You know, people give too much emphasis on that, it's anti-rave law, become rape, I really think it's a very small, you know, it has a very small effect on the ground. And like, even the

[01:06:37] prevalence of rape, you know, in small towns and villages have, in fact, increased, you know, after some of the anti-rape laws have come. So, I really don't think, it is, I think it's only cultural change, it's societal change, it's political change, that can really, or most importantly, economics and education, which can really change the game for Indian Muslims right now, because this is really the worst time.

[01:07:07] And if you really look at around it, like, during the 18th, after the 1857, first war of independence, because, you know, it was a very, very Muslim led movement, Bahadur Shah Zafar. So, like, the colonial powers, you know, they went after, you know, the whole area, it was flattened. Many houses were burned by the government, bulldozed after that. So,

[01:07:37] the state right now is using exactly the same, exactly the same order for Prendi that the colonial, the British rulers, did, if you look at it. And the British also wanted to go after Waqh, but they have a policy that we don't play with They wanted the Waqh land, but they did not want it to touch upon the religious sentiments, because that was what led to the first war of

[01:08:07] independence, because the rumour spread that it is using beef and for cartridges. So, they did not want to touch religion. That's the only reason they left the land. But right now, the government is doing exactly the same, while it incarcerates political prisoners, while it attacks minorities, Dalits, women at the same time. It is following the same playbook. So, it is very, very difficult for the spirit of the concentration to be alive.

[01:08:37] People have to really, you know, it is only through people, you know, people talking, people coming out, people, you know, talking about these things and making their voices heard, that can only change. Where do you think the Indian Muslim goes from here? I really, to be honest, like, I am, I think there is, at some point, I do think, I do think, you know, the new generation, you know,

[01:09:07] will realize that, you know, what the effect of hate on the psyche, you know, of their children, you know, and because what is happening right now, like, so, like, I think there is a mental health epidemic which is going on right now. I think people will at some point understand that, you know, they have what they want to put in I still really hope that, you know, people will realize what a fault, you know,

[01:09:37] that this will not raise them. I still believe in the idea of India. I still believe India will come back to its senses at some point, but right now, it's a, Muslims have to be, you know, they are attacked economically, judicially, by law enforcement, jobs, like, political representation, I think right now you can only rely on time and

[01:10:08] at some point the people realize that it is impacting themselves. That is the only way. Zeya Dini, a book you've written, and I quote, almost everyone has picked a country where they would run to when the inevitable happens. Some have got in touch with uncles settled in Canada, the US, Turkey, or the UK. If they ever need asylum, even someone like me who felt safe even in times of communal violence, now worries about my family's future in my homeland. Stop quote. You still feel as intensely as

[01:10:37] when you wrote this? I do, I do. I think right now it is the way Indian Muslims are consigned to a territory of human or non-human that is still going on. Like, it's like that, you know, if a Muslim dies, you know, it's like five Muslims die, and like now it's become very very accepted part, you know, nobody really any shares any news right now if something like that happens. So that kind of violence has become

[01:11:07] acceptable and sometimes even celebrated. Like, if there was a mob lyncher, like, state actually tried to people lynch lynch they garland were going go into their heroes present and after somebody like a sadri pragya who was arrested on terrorism charges

[01:11:32] you know he became a member of parliament you know like and if something like that would have happened in let's say Pakistan so like people would have said but that is happening in India nobody really it's you know is that much affected well sadhvi ritambara has just won a padma award as we record this the announcement came a day or two ago yeah so it is very very clear that the state

[01:12:01] you know is promoting you know discrimination and hate against muslim and will reward people those who participate in it and in fact anybody who doesn't participate in it will suffer the consequences that has happened you know like even hindus you know many hindus and in fact first you get to them you get to be a person who doesn't do it because you say that you have said that you have said that

[01:12:40] you know that is that is how the media is trying their level best just because of their you know interest and money also nobody is ekhi waali baat bhi hai no most of the people don't really you know

[01:13:06] abh dhvi dhvi tv media jis panah se redundant hota jara hai so because only very old people still watch tv media so unka jo jo unka jo target audience hai wo kum hota jara hai so they are become more vitriolic and that will keep happening because i think i am i will not be being a journalist i will not be shocked it at some point the indian media start doing its jobs like you know okay you know like

[01:13:34] khaan kuch kuch karwado ta ke unko eyeballs mil jayen they are so desperate right now i will not be surprised mark this this is going to happen in the next five ten years i don't know like i hope this doesn't happen so that is what is happening so i think also people need to stop believing the media being a former journalist with international publications you know like it is uh this is

[01:14:01] the fall like the fall of the media is the biggest story of our time and just well it's just one amongst the many institutions that have been in decline but uh yeah i've also felt that perhaps this dark phase is also an opportunity for muslims the indian muslim now has no option but to get more educated get the girls fully educated shed whatever orthodoxy there might be where it is still practiced and so on do you think the same i do believe i do believe i do believe that

[01:14:30] they need to get themselves educated i do believe they need to accept the changes the technological except technology except you know whatever new things are coming uh you know in the world and like of course like give more opportunities to the women uh students but to be honest i or i see that is happening the kind of muslim like if you go to the ground even in ghetto in villages i really think

[01:14:55] that kind of attitude have orthodoxy a lot of come up people really want their you know girl child to go to the school become doctors you know like anybody else but right now the the facilities are less so because ke ab aisa bhi hua hai ke hijab behir ke tum school nahi ja sakte you know so in fact

[01:15:19] the state doesn't really want ke them to get educated also at the same time so it may be problem the schools nahi hai to woh wali problems hai so right now they are ready to they are even among the lowest like sbse jo gharib patske me bhi you are jaka dekho woh bhi cha raha hai ke unki bachche aur bachcheia pard jayain so school hi nahi nahi nahi nahi nahi so phir kya uh so it is it is an attitudinal problem i think i will not shy away from saying that it's

[01:15:47] an attitudinal problem but at the same time it's a very systematic problem also or at the same time my hum loog ye accept nii karthay like ek indian general conscious ke hindu jo hai woh matlab puja karna cholde you know at the same time uh ke aap tabhi modern ho sakti ho jab abni religious beliefs ko parna choldo temple me jaare na choldo uh kai kertai hindi uh but at the same

[01:16:13] time hindus are making more temples they are going to temples more why it is expected from muslims to become less you know orthodox kind of like it should be equal right but at the same time i do think jis taha ka jo baks hai uh they they you know like uh i really don't think to be honest education and everything right now doesn't change only political political changes politics only

[01:16:40] politics can change the situation right i am i very firmly believe that so ziad what comes next for you another book of course uh i am working on a lot of stories i just my some of my short stories were published uh i also do freelance journalism i am working on another book and uh that is also about marginalized communities i think that will be about the lips you know some story

[01:17:08] among about the community which is unexplored so i intend to work uh you know write books about marginalized communities which are very beautiful which are interesting which are so interesting to like i think people are now tired of hearing success stories of you know very rich people like you know ambani like i think because so much has been talked about people are looking for

[01:17:36] small towns uh you know success stories and people who are changing things so i will focus on something like that i'll keep writing stories for me like that interesting bhi jada jo khani what inspires you other writers poetry something else aksar jab mein paryushan hootah hon to mein dho cheeze zhadur kertah hon ek to mein

[01:18:04] purani joh joh joh poets hain jose faiz ahmed faiz huye ya pher ahmed faraz huye khaaf faiz ahmed faiz mojhe bhot paiz haalib huye so mujhe lakta hai joh vakt chal raha hai to abhi muche raktai ki joh unki joh poetry hai muche lakta hai ki wakt ke saath jayse biet raha hai

[01:18:22] and uh that i sometimes go to them for solish i also listen to a lot of music i listen to sahir lupdhiyanvi's old songs i listen to modern music as well and i do read a lot uh so like i i am reading a lot of books sometimes very very different books i'll read mostly for leisure i am just reading

[01:18:48] a really beautiful book by true man kapote it's a crime thriller so yeah i find solace in cinema music poetry and books that's what i find solace right now so there there's a question i ask all my guests at the end of the show why do you do this work i really think the only thing that really keeps

[01:19:10] me staying right now is writing uh like the at every point in the world like the johan peh bhi marginalized ke paas jitni jitni jyada unse power lene lago ge to woh kuch nahi ka deka to woh apni eke khani hii bata sushka hai so powerful ke paas apna bhoat sari cheeze hootie hai joh joh joh joh joh jose khaas power nahi hoti joh khaas ni hih hoti hai batane ko

[01:19:37] so shairas kitab ke through bhi mehne ye karaa and ab mai or logo ki kaani wei chahta hon khe joh bahar anayi chahiye it was interesting so i just i don't know i think writing uh makes keeps me sane I really don't think if there was writing, I would not be sane. I don't know what kind of situation I will be. It's the only way I think I can survive the world right now. Zeyad, thanks so much for being on the show. Thank you so much, Shraf. It was really nice talking to you.

[01:20:06] And maybe you want to tell readers where they can find your book? Yeah, you know, like anybody who wants to read the book. It's called City on Fire, A Boyhood in Allegra. It's available on Amazon and Flipkart and everywhere. You can get it from Amazon. You can get it from most of the bookstores, Crossword bookstores. More like if you are in big cities, it will be available in most of the bookstores. And you can get it from Amazon. Thanks, Shraf.

[01:20:36] Thank you so much, Shraf. Really nice talking to you. Have a lovely day.