New instruments being used to fund social sector are encouraging

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter, I am Ashraf Engineer

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_02]: In a developing country like India, the social sector and other civil society organisations

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_02]: are critical to the social and economic framework. For a country as vast and populist

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: as the social sector supports the government efforts to increase reach for its programs

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and launches supporting one's office zone. However, it has been rough going for the sector

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: in the past few years with COVID-19 disrupting operations and funding we routed towards relief

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: work. Funding remains of massive challenges to amplify government scrutiny of non-profit organisations.

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Based with existential threats, many social organisations have had to cut programs and

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: staff. Despite this, the social sector is adapting and finding ways to keep going.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's what India needs.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: All Indians Matter

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Dear on the show, co-founder of the Catalyst Group Shiv Kumar and investor who's passionate

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: about solving complex social problems, she was dedicated more than 30 years to social

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: development in India and elsewhere.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: His experience spans consulting, strategy, advisory, technical support, institution building,

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: mentoring, team leadership and coaching across the spectrum of focus areas such as health,

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: livelihoods, education, sustainability, gender and equity.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Starting his career in a leading farmer-owned cooperative, Shiv has supported more than 200

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: community organisations and special enterprises. Shiv is part of several standing committees,

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: task forces and reference groups in India and abroad.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And as authored, think pieces are built in a chapter in the book by the World Bank.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Shiv has helped change the lives of 3 million people founded or mentored 210 organisations

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and raised $1.4 billion for causes and communities.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, Shiv.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, I have good to be here.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard so much about all Indians matter and glad to be here, sir.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for coming, Shiv.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Shiv is the Indian social sector still experiencing the effects of the pandemic?

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like all of us, we are all experiencing the pandemic still in various ways.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the pandemic has been a boom and a bayonet I would say together.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I like what is the process from I am beautifully analysed.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She said it very nicely.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She said COVID-19 has led to a lot of civil society organisations closing down.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Some struggling but surviving.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of them have used it quite well to really, you know,

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: catapult themselves into the next or probably a different orbit.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So it really depends on, you know, the type of organisation and how ready they were for the change

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and the challenge.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But some of them in really poor local areas have really, really struggled and some of them continue to struggle.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and which area has, have you seen those impact?

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Is it funding, programming, implementation?

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Funding remains a challenge as before, Ashraf.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you look at the total gap for the STG, the gap was very big, big, pre-COVID and continues to be big.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So funding, I would say is the number one challenge, capabilities and capacities are the number two challenge, for sure.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say funding is a massive challenge simply because one, there is a post-COVID fatigue, right?

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know that every foundation spent a lot including the government, spent a lot of money in COVID.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So that is also led to that fatigue, what I call as the COVID fatigue not just post-COVID for our bodies but also funding, right?

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: The second big area where funding is got affected is the fact that there have been a lot of changes in the way for money can be received and utilized, right?

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's also being one factor.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And the third big factor is that I think India rightfully so as a growing resilient nation has projected its power soft power internationally.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So and when foreigners come and see our beautiful airports, the lovely roads particularly my beautiful T2 airport in Bangalore, you know anybody flows through where they're going to say this is better than Washington DC, what are you talking right?

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think these three factors in their shining the COVID fatigue and the foreign regulations titanane have definitely led to struggle for some, but not for all.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: There are segments of the civil society which has grown despite all of this.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_02]: The sector actually had to lay off many because of the pandemic and naturally this impacts the work it does.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_02]: How was it tell to this concern?

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a really difficult question because one of the big challenges with the civil society is the lack of data, right?

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Where can you go to date to look at how many NGOs are there, how many people are they employing and how many of they laid off?

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's really difficult to get employment data around civil society.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence in fact I remember a report of Darsra coating, you know, there has been layoffs.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I do hear that too.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, you know, we are in a feast and famine if I'm put it that way.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: The famine is that funding comes down obviously it's going to 80-90% of the cost we usually hedge are so there's a lot of cut back.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But I also see new NGOs and this is a report which recently came out from Sattva, which shows that the last 10 years NGOs which have been set up have a business model which seems to be explosively good.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're growing quite well and they're hiring in big numbers.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a bit of a mixed picture but I should what worries me is very small community-based organizations at the ground level who may be, you know, losing people and unable to keep people.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I know you've touched upon the challenge of praising funds to some extent, but especially in today's environment, how tough is it?

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't want to go over the three reasons what I said all three are very, very tough ones, right?

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of international funding is based on what new are times rights or what people think in Geneva.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: They are seeing right from India which is very different, which is what, you know, luckily at least for India not only this makes a snake-chamas and bulls and cows in the road, I think the story is changing.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think investors are reading that more and more and thinking maybe I should do Africa more than that, you know, not really India.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the challenge is significant as well.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I would not underestimate it, my own organization stuggles quite a bit in terms of how to rethink our approach and all of that.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I would say significant challenge to your point but the models of social development we've evolved, new kinds of capital and instruments need to come in.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_01]: What I mean by instruments is that, you know, we had only one method.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Give grant, I'll go burn the grant. Now there is development impact bond, it results based financing.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: There are lots of new instruments in play now. I think that part of it is really, really interesting and not to mention the social stock exchange which is another thing which government has also opened out say, hey, why doesn't civil society use this methodology?

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: To raise funds and be transparent about what he raised and how we use. So again, it's a mixed baguette stuff. I mean, I always tell outsiders from India, you can tell anything about India's true.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: There are horrible country, true, we're a beautiful country, true, right? It's that mixed baguette is what we're dealing with.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely, I think it's a very interesting point that you raised about different instruments being used to raise capital for social work.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also a matter, I mean, one part of it is raising the funding but there's also the matter of improving the efficiency of spending that funding.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So what progresses and changes are we, what progress and changes are we seeing on that front?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: One big difference I'm seeing is more and more NGOs publishing their efficiency parameters, right? What does it take to generate one job in India, right?

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This was very difficult to get 20 years back. What is it take to do one watershed was always available because government and NGOs came together in what should programs and were able to take it clearly, right?

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of unit costs, package of services, clarity around what is the, you know, breakdown of a program is very, very critical.

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: The challenges are, I'll give you two extreme examples, right? If you had to do a watershed program, we have all of what you said, efficiency parameters, everything.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you had to do early child marriage intervention very difficult because the causal chains are very long, I think they're in complex social problems, we're still struggling.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: In race management, you know, natural resource management, we made a lot of progress then.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Overall, I would say efficiency a lot more data needs to come in. I think civil society like us also need to hold ourselves accountable.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think government is showing the way on this quite a bit I would say, whether it's NREGA or when it's a PMG, why there's a lot more transparent data out there as public data, right?

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think similarly civil society should also start doing that.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_02]: What about our neemusness and outcomes? Now the social sector has struggled with that historically in India. So why is it such an issue in India particularly and what can we turn about it?

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think it's a global issue as if you ask me, I think where does this unevenness comes from? It comes from the unevenness of the complex problem itself, right?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not selling shampoo, we're not buying a shoe, right?

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the unevenness is also because of how difficult and dynamic and different the problems in context are.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore, cookie cutters don't work. You can just say, you know, for example, I work with small private hospitals, these mom and pop hospitals, you know, 10 beds local.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: They provide enormous service. But if you ask my own team, what does it cost to do that you'd rather just turn versus Connecticut?

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very different, right?

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So the unevenness is because of our tremendous variation in our country context. It's also the different programs which are uneven, but is this an impossible task to look at more even measurement of outcomes?

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: No. I think we all need to do much better on that.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, theories of change, standard theories of change, outcome tracking methods which are common, which you don't use one method. I don't use one method, then it's not comparable.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot more work needs to be done on that. But what I'm very glad to tell you is that if you take HIV fee, both civil society and government will show we can work towards one outcome, one plan, right?

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are increasing places where this is becoming possible.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, Shiv, the other very controversial thing is that there's been a lot of regulatory scrutiny in recent times by the government and many NGOs have had the foreign funding licenses, cancer, the bank accounts, frozen, etc. How do you see this?

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we all read news and we know. So I'm not going to repeat what is out there, but let this is my analysis or sure about what's happening.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Any sovereign government will be extremely watchful of any international funding coming in.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: For very obvious reasons illegal activities or manipulation of anything which is happening here.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think these are sensitive issues, every sovereign government should worry about. Every government worries about it, not just India, right?

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, the challenge for Indian government is that our law there is society and trust and Section 8 companies, right? These are registration, but everybody's got an NGO, right?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if you unpack it, what all does it consist of? It not only consists of service organizations, charitable institutions, it has got schools, it's got colleges, it's got bus companies, right?

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's got religious institutions, they're all in the same bucket. So therefore, when you legislate across it, it will use full and someplace, it bites in some places.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think what is required is really that unpacking of what is civil society itself, because to me, NGO means nothing, it means non-government organization.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You are an NGO now, a chef. Everybody's an NGO, right?

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's important to translate why that kind of government is included in me, right?

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? I think that's one part. The second part is I think, you know, greater transparency among the Indian actors, among the service organizations is important.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think government also should be more transparent about you know, why are they doing what they're doing?

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And it takes also the civil society to be more transparent in terms of what they're doing and why they're doing.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Do we need a more enabling environment and a better partnership between government and NGO? Absolutely.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Has India shown that in any sector? Oh, yes? Look at health, look at rural development, shine for a stream, right?

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing amount of work that NGOs and government have done together. What is missing really a chef is this no-onsing the NGO business

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: to really call out who is who and second is to have a partnership framework which helps the government and NGOs to work together.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So since you mentioned partnership frameworks, generally speaking, would you say that the partnership with the government has worked out who they use?

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, I would say, a big yes and a big difference. Okay. Let me explain the big yes.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there is any other way other than to work very closely with the government because 98% is a social development funding government is doing, right?

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: With a growing economy, government should invest more in education and health. And they should that you know as a rightful methodology.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, if I were to unpack it, let me give you the example of community action collaborative which I am the chief integrator of.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We work with 34 governments, state governments, you know, there is not a single government person who said no, right?

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And if I see what is it that made us work, there is a clear value we should bring to the table. We should not be seen as competition to government or just criticizing and working away, right?

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And 30 are roles of failure. What government can do and cannot do, right? If that is the case, it works.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Where it doesn't work is when personalities get involved, where we see each other as competition, whether we see each other as critics, only, right?

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Not going beyond critiquing. I think criticizing each other is absolutely okay, but I think criticism just ending with what action, I think is where it fails generally.

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Technology. How is the social sector adapted to newer technology tool is to bring in greater efficiency and outcomes?

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We've already mentioned that and even this is an issue of cost of wood.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Is it an amazing time reality in a chef? I mean, I don't know about, you know, I'm 55. I've seen a rotary phone to a so-called smartphone.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Generative AI now. It's a phenomenally interesting period to be anything. And particularly if you're going to be a civil society.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like your point on efficiency, right? Efficiency is going to come out of, you know, investments in technology.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We can reach more people faster, better cheaper, deliver better services and impact for sure.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: How are we in adopting technology? Not so great, right? Because of a couple of reasons.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Smaller NGOs and CBOs struggle with costs. And even the knowledge of what is the right technology for me?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why we work with companies like Dwanee who are social sector experts on technology, right? They're the ones who handle these small NGOs and myths and NGOs.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there good examples a chef of people adopting technology? I think yes. I see a lot of NGOs adopting not just apps.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It helps us to, you know, mistake and thing as technology, right? Technology is a whole range of things from data to, you know, I see, methodologies.

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I see a broader option but generative AI is still in hype mode. I think it needs to show more results.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, Applewood.AI, one of the efforts from Nandani Lakani, I think set to potentially revolutionize how NGOs can use information.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I work with another company called Tamaku. And Tamaku is already put out an AI tool for NGOs to write proposals and reports, right?

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's a lot going on but a lot of bridging will be required, sure.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. And I think this is probably the same principle can be applied to most industries that we say in today.

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But what about the next five years for the social sector? What trends do you think will stand up?

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the social sector is going to necessarily see a pressure of capital and capability, having the need for the civil society to reinvent itself.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We are our thought itself in many senses.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the capital part of it will go beyond typical grants, particularly from abroad.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll show you, good news is that India is going to see another hundred million new rich people, right?

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_01]: From middle class, lower middle class to middle and upper.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that landscape is very promising if they are starting to contribute.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So again, like our country, there are a lot of bright spots but I think to tap into that is not that everybody is waiting to write a check to every NGO, right?

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a serious credibility, trust issue for people to give to NGOs and that trust deficit between government and NGOs is even more higher.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So we need to address a trust deficit, we need to remodel delivery models of civil society and we need to bring in fresh types of capital and institutions.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think those will be the directions in which the sector will move towards.

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Will there be a shake up? Yes, will we lose some really good local NGOs working with amazing communities like salt workers or frontline and JNK will be loose small NGOs. Yes, but I think overall I see a positive picture.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But we need to look after these important community NGOs which are doing some network.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And which areas do think will be in focus, education, healthcare, gender?

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a high and my organization are a big advocate of not really cutting this way.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as if this is like you know, you walk into a room of doctors, you don't know who they are.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you sit in front of a person and that person says, I'm an optal malgist.

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to only treat your right. Right? That's how it is when you say education or health people coming with money are saying, I will work in education. I will work in health.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a big proponent. We need to re modify our thoughts around geographies and most importantly around communities.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Today if you look at fishing communities, fairly big crisis, right? You look at street vendors. They're dealing with not only the online sales but also the climate change.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? So we need to remodel ourselves around communities and geographies, not around sectors. But that's at PO point, health will continue to be a big investment area.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Education will see it's up and down, it'll seement, bit of a down. I think it's likely to pick up.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the big area would be around inclusion, gender inclusion, financial inclusion, and reducing the big gap between the Indians in terms of per capita.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we'll see a lot more resources coming into it. Climate will be another big area of work, which is extremely obvious.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But what in climate is the key thing? Dermand has been a big investor in renewable energy but I see spaces for NGOs to contribute even in climate.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think this is a interesting point since of course many of them are interrelated, right? Climate and gender is not separate. Climate and health is not separate.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's interesting sort of coming together of various focus areas. But I just wanted to touch upon that point that you made earlier about the trust deficit between the government and the social sector.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And do you think going forward now that there has been a, it's been a while since this conflict has happened and there must have been a process of each party trying to understand the other better.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you think going forward partnerships with the government will get easier?

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it's difficult even now, Ashraf, honestly. I think the language we speak and the mutual respect for each other is where the challenges.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't see necessarily a problem in every government and every level to really collaborate at all.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I say this not because I want to praise anybody or to be safe.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I say this because from my own experience of working with various parts of the government.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: There was an eyes of who got so angry with me over a dinner, he said you freaking NGOs, you know, it's a real problem. You always show us the problems.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You will always talk about the problem, you will always tell what government does not have. Can you do even one tenth of what I can do?

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: That there is an element of truth and what he say.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think the partnership framework should be about where I can add value where you can add. I just think one example for you.

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: When government was trying to scale up COVID vaccine, it wasn't reaching the most poor and vulnerable.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They were giving it free, right?

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But then when we sat with the government and looked at a particular district administration, some places there know vehicle.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are nurses available to go give the COVID injection in the village, right?

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: In some places, vehicle is there. There's no diesel. In some places, both are there but no nurse to go.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is where NGOs stepped up the private sector stepped up and filled the gap, right?

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And say hey, can we do this for you?

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I've even given data entry operators for COVID, right? Because they had a backlog of entry of things.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This early days later on government picked it up very well, right?

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not important. Only then it's going to actually make a difference.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So tell us about the catalyst group?

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're a 30 year old social enterprise platform.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the one thing we believe is the power of the government, the dynamism of the market and the commitment to communities, right?

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We come from the Amul and I am success family.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, all the founders are from the Institute of rural management.

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And we believe social enterprise approaches the way to do things are sharp.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: That means you use the market, you work with the government and you work closely with the communities.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's ethos with which we come from.

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's why you'll see my answers about not just being centric but actually central to how we do things.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So our belief is that, you know, we marry the heart of NGO or civil society.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't use the word NGO as civil society and efficiency of the private sector.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's a, you know, USB outside.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So here's the question I ask all my guests at the end of the show. Why do you do this work?

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Anger and hope.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I am extremely angry when I see how a large number of our fellow citizens to night.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You and me will be having dinner but they will not be having this, right?

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's simply an example.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not a human society.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, where can I put it beautifully?

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. We all feel individually and collectively if we have this level of poverty or this level of, you know,

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Divisions and differences between us.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: That brings a lot of anger energy in me.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The hope energy is that I can walk in this country with my head and hide.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I can do things within the legal framework a lot of good, right?

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we are a beautiful nation of innovation, right?

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing set of human beings.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I, that hope and anger, although one can say they're opposite sides.

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think are the two engines for me which drive my work and probably even caters group in that sense.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Shiv, thanks so much for being on the show.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Ashraf. I really welcome your audiences who patiently listen right up to the end to check what we do.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Website is catalystsinclusion.org.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Check our website, you know, get involved with us.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: We would really love me to hear from similar voices and similar people who face the same challenges.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Ashraf, thank you very much for having me here.