Hindutva pop is extremely dehumanising, helps normalise hatred

[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter, I am Ashraf Engineer.

[00:00:03] You may not have noticed it but hate has found a new vehicle to ride on, music and

[00:00:07] verse.

[00:00:08] Across rural areas and small towns and increasingly urban India, hate music and poetry

[00:00:13] is being used to create social fissures and to make Hindu-Twas roots grow deeper.

[00:00:18] This has been detailed in a great new book H. Pop the secretive world of Hindu-Twar pop stars

[00:00:22] by Kunal Purohid.

[00:00:23] The book dives deep into the lives of musicians and poets whose artistic expression is used to popularize

[00:00:29] and intensify the Hindu-Priedeology.

[00:00:32] Over the past decade, hate has taken various forms.

[00:00:35] Music and poetry to it would seem other latest.

[00:00:45] Kural Purohid is on the show today.

[00:00:46] Kunal is an award-winning independent journalist documentary filmmaker and podcast creator.

[00:00:51] Over the past two decades, Kunal has written on politics, rural India and gender while focusing

[00:00:56] more recently on hate crimes and the rise of Hindu nationalism.

[00:00:59] He received the Ramnaath going to award for excellence in civic journalism in 2012.

[00:01:03] The statesman award for rural reporting in 2014 and the UNFPA-Ladley Media Award for

[00:01:08] gender sensitive reporting in 2014 and 2019.

[00:01:12] He has written for Al Jazeera, Pro-Publica, the Times of India, Foreign Policy, Hindustan

[00:01:17] Times, South China Morning Post, Deutsche Weller and the Wire among others.

[00:01:21] At a personal level, he was a colleague.

[00:01:23] At the Hindustan Times a long time ago and we just kind of calculated that it was about

[00:01:27] 12 years ago where he stood out as a special talent.

[00:01:30] Kunal, I am so glad you made the time.

[00:01:32] Asha, thank you so much.

[00:01:33] It's a pleasure at multiple levels because as you said, it's not just being on the podcast

[00:01:39] that I so thoroughly enjoy but it's also in the company of an editor I thoroughly enjoyed

[00:01:44] my time with.

[00:01:45] So thank you so much for making this happen.

[00:01:48] We are very, very welcome.

[00:01:49] It's a grim issue actually Kunal and you reported from across the country.

[00:01:53] So how deeply entrenched is hate?

[00:01:56] I mean, I don't want to sit here and you know make broad brush generalizations which sound

[00:02:01] alarming and possibly sensationalist.

[00:02:04] I think instead what I will do is try and tell you that one way to measure how grim the situation

[00:02:10] is.

[00:02:11] It's to just look at the kind of examples that are there are sprouting, right?

[00:02:15] Because there's no tangible marker for how deeply entrenched hate is at this point.

[00:02:20] You look at what has been happening over the past few years.

[00:02:24] Very recently we had an RPF constable who was on duty in uniform.

[00:02:30] You know has a fight with this senior goes around with his weapon and drags Muslims out of

[00:02:37] the railway compartment that he was posted on and shoots them point blank, kills them on the spot.

[00:02:43] Right?

[00:02:44] We have cases where a teacher, a Hindu teacher is encouraging other students, other Hindu students

[00:02:51] to a salt Muslim student.

[00:02:54] And while she does that, she's making this badging remarks about Muslims.

[00:02:59] Here where you and me both are in Mumbai.

[00:03:01] If you remember this, this was just a few months ago,

[00:03:04] where at Bandra railway station there was a mob of people who descended on a Hindu girl and a Muslim boy

[00:03:11] who were at the station trying to catch a train.

[00:03:13] And then they started assaulting the Muslim boy and said that he was doing something called love jihad.

[00:03:18] So you know, we're increasingly seeing these indicators from so many different places as well.

[00:03:25] That that it's difficult for me to not then say that hate has reached at least it's reached

[00:03:31] multiple sections of our society at very, very different levels.

[00:03:36] Right?

[00:03:36] So it's not just anymore about the urban, it's not just anymore about the rural,

[00:03:41] it's not just anymore about the rich, the poor.

[00:03:44] I think hate has managed to in the way, you know, different mediums have been employed.

[00:03:49] Hate has managed to reach so many different levels of people and society.

[00:03:53] Then I must say, I think we are at a point where we're only going to see grimadays upon us.

[00:04:00] In fact, that incident we mentioned about the RPM Constable while he was killing them.

[00:04:05] He was talking Hindu to a staff and talking about, if you want to live in India then you have to

[00:04:11] go into our promote the and stuff like that.

[00:04:13] And he said, only Modi and yogi can save you.

[00:04:17] You know, the question is to save you from what?

[00:04:20] And I know these are the kinds of conspiracy theories that they're often

[00:04:24] concocted and believed and people are very easily radicalised into believing them

[00:04:30] and then acting upon them.

[00:04:33] So what we're seeing astravis that these instances are of people who've been radicalised enough

[00:04:39] that they're acting upon the hate.

[00:04:41] What we're not seeing is the process of radicalisation.

[00:04:45] You know, what we're not seeing is what has been happening in all of these spaces for people to

[00:04:50] actually feel so emboldened in their hate and then that is honestly also why I wrote the book

[00:04:56] a meeting. The book came out of this desire for me to understand the process through which all of

[00:05:04] these instances of hate, you know, be it hate crimes, be it lynchings, be it riots.

[00:05:09] What is the process that's making all of these happening?

[00:05:12] And you know, you and me have both been in the media for all of our lives.

[00:05:16] We know that we tend to cover these things as events.

[00:05:20] My quibble with the way we report is that these are not events.

[00:05:23] You know, these are when an incident happens that's the outcome of a process.

[00:05:28] And often we forget to see the process at all. We just report on it as an outcome

[00:05:31] as an event and then we move on. So I'm hoping that the book sort of you know does correct some of

[00:05:37] that at least. That's right. Yeah, yeah, I think you absolutely right. When did you first start noticing

[00:05:42] the emergence of H pop as you call it a hate pop? This happened in 2019 and again,

[00:05:48] it was it was a reporting trip that I was doing for an organisation called Indiaspend.com

[00:05:52] who used to incidentally they used to run a hate crime tracker which was later pulled down because

[00:05:58] you know, they were they were the subject of a troll attack by the Hindu right we ecosystem online.

[00:06:04] One of the things that I was doing for them is basically going and traveling to places where hate

[00:06:09] crimes had happened to do exactly what I mentioned. You know, to try and understand why they happened

[00:06:15] and to also see the after lives of these hate crimes, right? To try and understand what

[00:06:19] the impact of these hate crimes has been on on the social fabric of those places.

[00:06:24] I went to this place called Gumbla which which you know most most of us never possibly

[00:06:29] here or if it's never in the news. In Gumbla there was an incident which had happened there was a

[00:06:33] hate crime that had happened and I had gone to sort of try and understand as I said, you know how

[00:06:38] the hate crime happened and it was on a Ramnam media where you know as always, Gumbla used to

[00:06:44] see the local Muslims standing outside the mosque waiting for this Ramnamy procession and

[00:06:51] and Ramnamy is nothing like what what people in cities are used to. In places like Jarkhand,

[00:06:57] Ramnamy is a massive, massive festival with often hundreds of thousands of people on the streets.

[00:07:03] So you know these these festivals and these processions snagged their way across the town or across

[00:07:08] the city and they finally reached the destination which is often a Ram temple by the end of the

[00:07:14] end of the evening. So similarly on on that day the Ramnamy procession in Gumbla was was making

[00:07:19] its way through Gumbla town and it was supposed to reach the mosque, the Jama Musjith which is

[00:07:25] the main mosque of Gumbla where you know local Muslims were standing they were waiting to welcome

[00:07:31] and suddenly the energy in the crowd in the procession changed as soon as they entered the lane

[00:07:37] where the mosque was. You know and I know it became so monstrous and so aggressive that a lot of

[00:07:42] locals and a lot of onlookers including the police felt that you know this could lead to maybe a

[00:07:48] riot maybe an altercation anything at all right and what I just what I discovered was that

[00:07:55] and that moment the reason why the energy had changed, the reason why the Ramnamy processionists were

[00:08:00] behaving in a way that was different from all of these years. Was that someone had started playing

[00:08:06] the music in the procession who's who's words went to the effect Mulekito Pigirado

[00:08:13] and so suddenly this is very syncretic tradition where Muslims were also taking part

[00:08:18] welcoming Hindus you know Hindus would very peacefully and amicably pass

[00:08:23] right in front of the mosque pay their respects suddenly that moment had changed into a moment

[00:08:30] of hate and acrimony and possibly violence. So that was that was my first encounter with

[00:08:36] what these songs could do I mean they could as I say in the book they could create a mob out of a

[00:08:43] procession. Unfortunately what happens Ashraf that night is is that when some of the people of

[00:08:48] the mob are going back you know thankfully nothing happens in that moment because the police

[00:08:52] intervened but when some of these members are going back they encounter a Muslim guy who's

[00:08:58] all of 20 talking to a Hindu girl about three or four kilometers away from this part of the incident

[00:09:05] and they see him and then they then they know him then they realize that they've known hit this guy

[00:09:10] because it's a small town everyone knows everyone and yet they tie him up and assault him till

[00:09:16] the point where he can no longer stand only because he was talking to a Hindu girl and and they thought

[00:09:21] this is love Jihad you know the guy his name is mama Chalik he died that night and it's just

[00:09:28] that incident in my sort of you know my encounter with everything that happened that evening

[00:09:33] that that that blew my mind Ashraf and you know I started asking a lot of questions about just

[00:09:39] was happening you know what were these processes by which people were radicalizing and

[00:09:43] and you know the shock and the horror that music could do this is really how I how I sort of

[00:09:49] stumbled upon you know the world of Hindu to pop as I call it. Yeah and I think that's an interesting

[00:09:54] point and I mean I think even you agree that this is not something that just happens it has some sort

[00:10:00] of if I'm a call it institutional backing and you know from Hindu to organizations and leaders

[00:10:06] how exactly is it done and how are these so-called artists rewarded? So that is the

[00:10:12] interesting part Ashraf I think a lot of us you know especially some of the people who've known

[00:10:17] about the world or who've read about the world of Hindu to pop just very sometimes

[00:10:22] lazily also believe that this is all sponsored by the BJP or the RSS or the Hindu right wing in

[00:10:28] in general that's not always the case a lot of these artists and a lot of the pop stars that I

[00:10:35] talk about are all people who've possibly believed ideologically in what Hindu to a saying

[00:10:43] in the enemies that Hindu to a seeks to create and that is why they take to you know popular

[00:10:48] culture and that is why they take to these forms of expression be it music be poetry or be writing

[00:10:53] books somehow on the way to you know on the way to their journey of creating this art and popularizing

[00:10:59] it when they see that they start getting adulation when they start getting recognition

[00:11:05] is when the Hindu to you know co kind of Hindu to a ecosystem tries to co-op to them

[00:11:12] and then tries to sort of you know give them bigger platforms sometimes gives them you know money

[00:11:17] sometimes gives them patronage of different kinds and ensures that the work gets more and more

[00:11:22] visibility to give you an example some of these pop stars often get coated you know by the RSS and by

[00:11:31] I say the VHP the Bajrangdhal there there asked to you know come and speak at rallies

[00:11:36] they're given these massive platforms where you know the VHP or the Bajrangdhal would

[00:11:41] would try and mobilize tens of thousands of people and would would literally give these pop stars

[00:11:47] the crowd and say okay now do your magic you know do your thing so that is the kind of institutional

[00:11:52] support which then allows so many of those people who possibly have never heard of these pop

[00:11:56] stars who become a part of you know become fans of their work and then to patronize them online

[00:12:04] and you know for instance they all have YouTube channels you know so so many of them

[00:12:08] start becoming their followers on YouTube and and then that allows their work online as well to get

[00:12:14] more visibility so you know these these things work in different ways and to give you one quick

[00:12:18] short example again is what I write about it in my book as well of this singer who during the

[00:12:25] UP elections you know wrote this song called Joram Kulayin we'll go online you P may

[00:12:32] say hum Bhagwala haraying it and and again he was not a part of any of these organizations he

[00:12:38] was not a card carrying member of the BJP or or the RSS or or any of them for that matter

[00:12:43] but as soon as the BJP saw that the song was was getting popular they got him to start campaigning

[00:12:49] for them across UP and across a couple of other states which were also going to polls so

[00:12:55] the institutional support bit works in in different ways there is no one fixed manner in which

[00:13:00] the ecosystem works and I think what I find is that you know divisive actions almost have an

[00:13:06] image impact like LK I do uneasy atrathra you know that's all those years ago I mean left

[00:13:11] a trail of blood now you know when these guys perform is there a similar reaction that you

[00:13:17] seem sometimes yes and sometimes no much love I mean like I told you right the example of

[00:13:24] what we saw in Gumbla that is an example that is you know then take in place in different parts

[00:13:30] of the country in fact in Mumbai there was a Ramnami procession that that took place and again

[00:13:36] similarly just when the Ramnami procession was you know cutting across or cutting in front of

[00:13:43] a mosque in this place called Malad in Mumbai they started playing music which was which was

[00:13:49] very provocative words and there was almost a clash that happened you know tempers rose and

[00:13:55] and things could have spied a spiral out of control so this is something that we've seen where

[00:14:01] there has been an image reaction in many of these cases and an a simple exercise for the listeners

[00:14:06] to just you know maybe go online and Google the words Ramnami music tensions and violence

[00:14:13] you know some of the keywords that you can go on Google and you'll see the number of instances where

[00:14:17] this has happened where there is an image reaction to the music that is played that is one part

[00:14:23] of it the other part though Astra which that music also has a much more long term effect right

[00:14:30] music can can can help you normalize so much of the hatred because the beats can be

[00:14:37] can be food tapping you know you won't feel like you're consuming hate you you feel like you're

[00:14:42] you know you're listening to a number that you want to groove to or you know a song whose

[00:14:47] beats you'd love to listen to when you're in the gym for instance but actually the words that

[00:14:51] go with those beats are extremely dehumanizing are are words that are meant to target a certain

[00:14:58] community are words that are meant to you know question the existence of a community and that

[00:15:04] kind of consumption over time will lead to possibly you know different effects it will manifest

[00:15:10] itself in different ways it doesn't always have to be an image reaction so there are different ways

[00:15:15] in in in which music can can provoke and in which music can push you to act but one thing is for

[00:15:21] certain is is the nature of this pop culture the nature of the music is extremely dehumanizing

[00:15:27] and extremely problematic it's then a question of just when you know when it leads to an action or

[00:15:34] an act and there are other cultural expressions that have an impact you report how the screening of

[00:15:39] the kerala story led to a teenage girl refusing to leave her Mumbai slum home for days because she

[00:15:45] then began fearing Muslims absolutely um think what we've seen our chef is that you know that

[00:15:52] the Hindu right wing has has only an only gotten better with finding newer ways to tell their story

[00:15:58] right we are seeing that music as I say a music poetry and books have already seen a very very

[00:16:06] significant inclusion in some ways of the of the Hindu thought but there are also other forms

[00:16:12] right there are movies and I talk about it to some extent the movies like Kashmir files or or the

[00:16:18] kerala story um these are movies that are again you know taking the bias that is inherent in

[00:16:25] in so many of us and trying to activate that bias by you know by basically you know passing off

[00:16:32] propaganda as as fact even when it is fact check even when it is found to be filled with a very

[00:16:38] dubious claims with with disinformation uh these movies you know parade themselves to be to be fact telling

[00:16:47] as a result of which people come out of Mumbai theaters um you know wanting to want to possibly act

[00:16:53] on on the the hate and the anger they felt so we're seeing that already we're also seeing different

[00:16:59] forms you know where for for instance online we're also seeing memes uh which are which are doing

[00:17:05] the trick which are doing what what I speak of which is dehumanizing and and villainizing different

[00:17:11] sections of of um of the population but there's also a sort of there's a marriage of some of these

[00:17:16] mediums uh which is which is something that we're seeing just now I mean as we speak in the days uh

[00:17:22] in the in the run up to the to the Ram Mandir inauguration just just last night I saw it

[00:17:27] wheat by PVR cinemas that it is good to be you know live telecasting in cinemas halls uh the coverage

[00:17:36] from Ayodhya on January 22nd so what we're seeing is you can be in in a movie theater you can

[00:17:42] and and you're getting complimentary popcorn by the way you can be in a movie theater you can be

[00:17:48] you can be nibbling on popcorn and you can be seeing the normalizing um you know of of a monument

[00:17:55] which has a very problematic past right which has a very very contentious and a very bloody it

[00:18:01] past because over 2500 people were killed uh in the agitation around the temple so you know what

[00:18:08] you're seeing is normalizing it through different forms so you will feel like you're watching a

[00:18:13] movie like you're watching Hindu Rastra play out in a cinema hall while you while you enjoy

[00:18:18] your complimentary popcorn as well. There you look at a music and ideology have always

[00:18:23] a music and ideology stroke politics I should say have always intersected in India now songs

[00:18:29] have been used in campaigning to solidest solidest support for causes in the past but hate music

[00:18:35] perhaps has not been used to this extent so what's changed now? It's interesting Ashava I mean you

[00:18:41] look at the history of how music has been used how poetry has been employed in in political

[00:18:48] causes and I've done it in the book where I have when I have spoken about this in some detail

[00:18:52] if you look at colonial times you know you look at the bhakti movement for instance and then

[00:18:57] you look at the independent struggle. You saw that music and poetry and slogans poetic expressions

[00:19:05] basically were being used constantly either you know towards social reform or towards a political

[00:19:12] cause which was to a root colonial rule from India. What has changed now is that the political

[00:19:18] causes is very very different the political cause now is to create enemies out of out of fellow citizens

[00:19:26] is to inside hate and anger against other other citizens, other other groups. So at that point

[00:19:33] we had very clear card political objectives which were you know rooted in in in very real

[00:19:39] you know political challenges of the day but we don't have those anymore you know what we're seeing

[00:19:44] is that this this pop culture has been has been weaponized and used to target fellow citizens

[00:19:51] and the political objective of the people who are promoting this kind of popular culture

[00:19:56] is that you know you as Hindus must feel like you are threatened by Muslims,

[00:20:01] by Christians, by anyone who's not Hindu. So the objective becomes that does the objective stand

[00:20:08] in a standing reality it doesn't right? Are we facing an existential threat from any of these

[00:20:14] communities we're not and there is data to back what I'm saying but the political objective

[00:20:20] of the Hindu right wing is to make you believe that you are. The only way that you can inside hate

[00:20:27] is by creating these different forms of you know popular culture which make you hate right?

[00:20:34] So the political objective has changed in hence the nature of music the nature of poetry is also

[00:20:39] changed after up we had different objectives back then we have different objectives now.

[00:20:44] Political patronage allows you to you know to sort of change the nature and mold the nature

[00:20:51] of these popular culture forms. This is what we saw back then and this is what we're seeing now.

[00:20:56] Yeah I was just about to say that the objective seems to be to convince Hindus that they are in

[00:21:00] the midst of a cultural war one in which their traditions and social norms are under threat.

[00:21:05] This is of course a false narrative isn't it? I mean I think what has happened is Ashraf

[00:21:10] there have been grievances that a section of our population have harbored right?

[00:21:16] And some of these grievances I also talk about in the book. For instance,

[00:21:21] one of the characters in the books and they've he used to be a journalist he used to be

[00:21:26] in different in the newsroom right and and he would say that you know each time I felt that

[00:21:34] you know that the narrative of secularism was wrong. There was nobody who was there

[00:21:39] listening to my micro-teak. There was just this unquestioned acceptance that secularism is

[00:21:45] right and then and that anyone who harbors any feelings you know towards the towards towards

[00:21:51] Hindus is is wrong. You can't talk of anything but secularism and and I think I think somewhere

[00:21:57] those grievances had been suppressed for a very very long time. Some of these were

[00:22:03] genuine grievances because I feel that the liberal order despite calling themselves liberal

[00:22:09] didn't create enough space for dialogues between people who didn't believe in it right?

[00:22:14] Didn't create enough space for all of these different streams of ideologies to exist

[00:22:19] and to be in conversation with each other. I think this this screaming down and this shouting

[00:22:24] down of anything that is not fitting into the liberal narrative has also done this where we've

[00:22:30] reached a point where a large section of the population is feeling so emboldened that liberalism

[00:22:36] has become a bad word now because they've suffered at at the hands of those who call themselves

[00:22:40] liberalism. So there is a larger problem and we're seeing this everywhere. We're not just seeing

[00:22:44] this in India. We're seeing this across the world where where in a different communities if

[00:22:50] have expressed similar grievances you see this in the US where sections of the white population

[00:22:56] have said that we've had all of these fears but the liberal media for instance just just said

[00:23:01] you know you were being racist if we started saying you know what about these migrants who are

[00:23:05] coming and then will we get our fair share of resources for instance. So these conversations

[00:23:11] have been there and they haven't really found a form of expression that would lead to satisfaction

[00:23:18] on the part of those who have covered these grievances. So that grievance now becomes something

[00:23:24] that finds a very, very emboldened expression. And what has happened is those grievances have come

[00:23:30] this far where the political project of the Hindu right is finally you know born fruit where

[00:23:36] where you're seeing the Hindu right in power and now the people who should be, who should be

[00:23:41] addressing those grievances because you are in power, you are in places of authority,

[00:23:46] have instead of addressing those grievances in a way that you know takes all of us along

[00:23:52] have chosen to weaponize those grievances as such. So suddenly you're made to feel that those

[00:23:58] grievances that you had were all right because you know the Muslims are out there to get you

[00:24:04] or that Christians are you know are trying to convert you every single minute of our lives

[00:24:09] and we must fight them and we must wage this war against them. So unfortunately what has happened

[00:24:15] is the even if they were genuine grievances, they've now been weaponized and instead of

[00:24:21] those grievances being addressed, there you know there are diversionary tactics that are

[00:24:26] being employed by those in power so that people who have those grievances constantly feel like

[00:24:32] they need to be addressed and constantly feel like they are in danger. While real issues that

[00:24:38] actually merit attention that actually affect the lives of all of our lives, all of our families

[00:24:44] continue to be neglected because you can then continue only talk about these issues that are

[00:24:49] created that are somehow also imaginary. So I think that is a larger issue that has happened and

[00:24:55] which is why you know this narrative that there is a cultural war to be fought, it arises from

[00:25:01] sometimes genuine grievances but then has been taken in a very very different direction

[00:25:07] you know has been deliberately twisted to suit the political objectives of those in power.

[00:25:13] You know I'm just coming back to Hindu to a pop or hate pop. I feel that while such music being made

[00:25:18] is one thing what's really worrying is this widespread popularity. It points to a significant

[00:25:24] change in people's mindsets and acceptance of the dem versus a concept that Kotanko de

[00:25:31] must be bludgeoned into submission by the majority. What do you think of that?

[00:25:36] Absolutely, Ashraf. I think one of the problematic things about these kinds of popular cultures

[00:25:41] that have come is as you said is the wide acceptance of these popular cultures.

[00:25:47] You know I think people in bigger cities, people in Mumbai, Delhi don't seem to understand that there

[00:25:53] is that there are these popular cultures which exist and which are extremely popular.

[00:25:59] You know they're not people who are followed by say I don't know a few hundred people

[00:26:03] they're people who have following in millions. People are willing to donate, people are willing

[00:26:08] to fund. I'll give you an example of just how widespread the popularity is. One of the people I

[00:26:15] speak about in the book she's a singer called Kabir Singh. She's all of 25 or 26 now,

[00:26:22] Hales from Hariyana and she's been making this Hindu to a pop since 2019. So she sings about

[00:26:28] everything that there is in the Hindu right wing of a system to sing about. Ask about Pupopulation

[00:26:34] Control and She has a song article 370 and she has a song. Love Jayhaha then she has a song.

[00:26:40] So every single issue that can be flagged in the Hindu right wing of a system she has a song for it.

[00:26:46] I was with her and I spent a lot of time with her. I also traveling with her when she

[00:26:50] when she would go around the country we were on the banks of the Ganga in Haridwar and this is in

[00:26:56] in 2021. If you remember just before the Kumaila in April, right? And there is a person who walks up to

[00:27:03] her and you know he says oh I recognize you you're coming singer right you are that singer who sings

[00:27:09] these songs and she says yeah of course I am and you know then he he has a fan boy moment where

[00:27:14] he says oh I'm from Bharatra. I really like to listen to your songs you know I love them and

[00:27:20] I find myself to be very very attached to the kind of music you make and she says thank you

[00:27:26] she smiles you know she's used to this and he says something after that as a show which

[00:27:31] which really sort of illustrates my point about just how popular this is. Kabirji can I wash your

[00:27:37] feet with the Ganga and you know I'm standing there and I'm just you know I'm just struck by that moment.

[00:27:44] So Kabirji says what do you mean he says no because you know you're doing so much for our

[00:27:48] religion you're doing so much for the country that I want to worship you by washing your feet

[00:27:54] with the waters of the Ganga. You know now Ashav would you would you would you do that to an

[00:27:58] arrigid sing you know would you do that to a sono niggum would you do that to a sono is your hand

[00:28:06] you wouldn't I mean that that is my point so the popularity that these pop stars enjoy

[00:28:11] is not the the same level of popularity that a pop star who's not singing this kind of music

[00:28:17] and joys right that is fandom the kinds that the Beatles would enjoy the kinds that's only

[00:28:24] government joys but this is something else. This is a form of worshiping which is beyond the

[00:28:30] realm of logic and and thinking and that is that is what is so wanting to me because if there

[00:28:35] are so many people who want to worship these pop stars if these are people who want to you know

[00:28:40] wash their feet imagine the kind of significance and the importance that they attach to songs

[00:28:47] when Kabirji you know presents a song on love jihad and and talks about how you know these people

[00:28:53] are out to get hindu girls imagine what the the impact of the dented makes on on the minds of

[00:28:59] all of those people who are willing to you know willing to wash a feet and willing to do whatever

[00:29:03] it takes to support her this is the worrying aspect of of hindu to pop. Actually coming back

[00:29:09] to the way you've narrated the book I mean it's done through three people right and I was just wondering

[00:29:16] could you give us a brief thumbnails on each of these three absolutely so as I said Kabirji is

[00:29:22] this singer and she's extremely young she she started singing only now five years ago in 2019

[00:29:29] just around the time the pulwama terror attack happened and her first song was on the terror attack

[00:29:35] she was was someone who used to deliver cosmetic treatments she used to work at a beauty baller

[00:29:41] and and her father who's again a very very popular her yarnway singer Ram Kesh Jivan pulwala.

[00:29:47] he decided to yarn cut out of her job and make her a singer overnight. So her first song quickly

[00:29:52] is a song which basically talks of the pulwama terror attack and you know rather than asking

[00:29:58] questions of the government rather than you know talking about how they could later

[00:30:02] terror attack happened and that's the worst terror attack on our on our paramilitary forces in peace

[00:30:08] time she basically twisted the attack and said that this attack happened because we've let

[00:30:15] these people amongst us you know stay for too long there is a line in her you know song which says

[00:30:22] you're a host there I hope but I'll see you too leave the bagel bagel bagel bagel bagel bagel bagel bagel

[00:30:27] so mar do now is doshiko right so you're basically looking at the neighbor which is Pakistan

[00:30:32] blaming them but the actual people who made this terror attack happen are people who are living amongst us

[00:30:39] so she from there has only you know sort of catapulted into fame that's character number one

[00:30:44] the second character is a publisher I mean he used to be a journalist he turned into an author and

[00:30:50] he's written several books with blooms very Hindi he is first book was about how you know

[00:30:57] everything that happened in 2002 from goderar onwards was a conspiracy against Modi against you

[00:31:04] know the then chief minister in the Modi and then sort of that was his first book and now he's launched

[00:31:10] he's launched a publication his own publishing house which will only and only produce Hindu

[00:31:15] to a books so his job is to really you know re-look at historical events his job is to you know

[00:31:22] look at things like the partition look at you know mogul history and trying to fit those narratives

[00:31:28] into the Hindu to a frame of things right so to try and talk about how you know Mahatma Gandhi was

[00:31:34] was a Muslim appeaser you know that they were all locked into conspiracy against Hindus and again

[00:31:40] St India you know and things like that so that's character number two the third character is a

[00:31:46] is a poet by the name of Kavi Kamal Agne and he's from a smaller town outside of Lafinal Kolgosa

[00:31:53] igang again like Kavi he performs poetry he writes and performs poetry on anything in the you know

[00:32:01] in the Hindu right we ecosystem that affects the Hindu right wing right so his his Magnum Opus as I call it

[00:32:08] poetry is this poetry that he wrote a few years ago it's a 14 minute long poem on the assassination

[00:32:16] of Mahatma Gandhi and listeners of your podcast would possibly you know sort of relate to it much

[00:32:21] more considering your work on on Gandhi Ashraf and the poem essentially you know seeks to

[00:32:28] look at Gandhi as a assassination and to delve into the mind of Nathuram Goethe and not just you know

[00:32:35] sort of normalize the assassination but call it deeply deeply necessary and justified

[00:32:43] there is a line in the poem and he ends I think one of the last few lines in his poem on Gandhi

[00:32:49] is this line which I think really sums up what he did the line said

[00:32:53] Agar Nathukhi Goli Uthrina Hothi Sineme Harindu Patanamaz Makka or Madhineme right so if

[00:33:03] Nathu had not killed Gandhi that that day every Hindu would today be a Muslim you know reading

[00:33:10] Nama's in Makka and Madhineme and that is essentially what he's done so these are three people

[00:33:16] who through which I've told the story of Hindutva pop and by pop I just don't mean music I mean

[00:33:22] popular culture because all of these three from singing to books to poetry to me reflect a

[00:33:28] wide gamut of popular culture forms which have been employed to try and spread the message of Hindutva

[00:33:34] further and further and and all of the three are not people who are online creators Ashraf

[00:33:39] I mean there are people who go deep inside India they travel across the country they do events

[00:33:45] they connect with people on the ground and they try and push their work in in spaces

[00:33:50] where even sometimes social media doesn't exist yeah but what are the impression I got from the

[00:33:56] three stories is that they were as much victims of manipulation as the perpetrators of it

[00:34:01] is that feeling that you got to I mean that's a very interesting question Ashraf I do agree with you

[00:34:07] in some ways that they were also victims to begin with come along Nathu poet his story comes to mind

[00:34:14] for most when I think of it that way because you know here is a guy who is growing up in

[00:34:19] Lucknow in Gosaigun and you know his family had great relations with Muslims in fact

[00:34:25] his father's best friend used to be used to be a Muslim you know so the families would visit each other

[00:34:31] come and told me how he would touch that man's feet every time they met and you know things like that

[00:34:36] except that the father and the Muslim best friend enter into into a bit of a commercial transaction

[00:34:42] where the father you know allows the Muslim friend to to les out a shop space that he had

[00:34:48] in in the market on the sort of agreement that he would give it back because you know the

[00:34:53] Muslim friend had had trouble with his livelihood and things the problem it opted when apparently

[00:34:59] the Muslim friend refused to give the space back that dispute turned into a very ugly fight

[00:35:05] where come a you know saw how his father felt extremely betrayed and let down by his Muslim friend

[00:35:11] he could see in front of his eyes how his father was suffering because his best friend

[00:35:16] his absolute best friend his body of his life had let him non by doing this so that is an incident

[00:35:23] that remained within him which you know he didn't really read too much into he thought this was a terrible

[00:35:28] man who had let down his father and so on but many years later Russia when he comes in touch with

[00:35:34] with the Hindu right wing and when he comes in touch with local Hindu right wing groups

[00:35:39] the belief that he in calcates from them is that you know all Muslims are essentially people who

[00:35:46] will betray you all Muslims are out there to get every Hindu they can and to either convert

[00:35:52] them or to finish them off so come on sitting there and you know putting two and two together

[00:35:58] and saying oh so hold on so what happened with my father was not was not an aberration you know

[00:36:03] what was not an exception it was a norm so in that in that he is he could make sense of things

[00:36:10] that had happened in his life and that is what drew him more and more towards the Hindu right wing

[00:36:15] so at one level yes you can you can say that they were victims but at at another level you know

[00:36:21] all of them are high functioning individuals who have also full agency of what they're doing

[00:36:27] they're not being forced into doing this at all they're they're in fact you know enjoying the

[00:36:32] fruits of popularity they're enjoying commercial success so they also have full agency knowing fully

[00:36:37] well what their work is doing and and what is what it's also doing to the fabric of the country

[00:36:43] so victims yes but I think there was a point where you know they could have possibly shaken

[00:36:48] off the victimhood and and understood the the repercussions and the implications of their work

[00:36:54] yeah it's a choice you make essentially absolutely yeah at the other thing Kunal that I notice

[00:36:59] or there's there seems to be a being an arc when it comes to these characters supporting the

[00:37:04] Indramodhi too there's an initial affinity for him then disillusionment which leads to even

[00:37:10] more rabbit writing or poetry literature and songs the theme being that Modi is now

[00:37:15] letting Hindus down and it is better to support someone even more radical like Yogi Adityanat what

[00:37:21] you make of that it didn't surprise me asha because that is that is a theme that I constantly

[00:37:28] you know sort of come across whenever I go out from you know metros whenever I go deeper into

[00:37:33] villages especially in the north and and the west of India I see this theme come up a lot that

[00:37:39] you know that that essentially Modi is now trying to hard to be secular and you know

[00:37:44] he's saying sub-kassat sub-khabikas etc. he's also making a pitch to Pasmanda Muslims

[00:37:50] he's also talking he's also making a pitch to Muslim women he's also saying how he's he's emancipated

[00:37:56] them you know from from the clutches of their evil husbands by abolishing triple the lock and so on and so forth

[00:38:03] they're seeing all of this and they're not very happy right there's a constituency of people who are

[00:38:07] not happy with with Modi doing any of this what they essentially want and what they essentially

[00:38:13] voted for astral is the Modi of 2002 the Modi who could go to relief camps and who could say

[00:38:21] ya kya chalray you know this is are these baby producing factories

[00:38:26] ya hampach, hamare pachis, ya you know things like that they wanted someone who

[00:38:32] couldn't hesitate to to call out Muslims they wanted someone who could essentially do all of those

[00:38:37] to deliver those hate speeches to show Muslims their place and they're not getting that from

[00:38:43] Modi anymore you'll be they see the promise right in yogi of 2024 they see Modi of 2002

[00:38:51] so what they're saying is we want that guy back one of the things that that one character told me

[00:38:57] is ya ya sub-kassat sub-khabikas, hamarasat kaffinya ya, sub-koguliket al-naj

[00:39:04] so essentially what they're saying is you know don't give us this this story about inclusive

[00:39:09] development and inclusive governance this has to be a country which has to have Hindus first no matter what

[00:39:15] and which is why they they believe that yogi is the guy who can deliver it right looking at his

[00:39:20] track record uh looking at how he he doesn't care I mean during during the last few months

[00:39:26] he's been saying this repeatedly he's been saying hamaras, shi assi prathisha kassaportya

[00:39:31] we want 80% of the population with us we don't care about the 20% who is the 20%

[00:39:38] it is everyone who's not Hindu so you know they want that they want that rhetoric they want

[00:39:43] someone who doesn't mind saying it who doesn't mind saying it as it is and essentially that is

[00:39:48] the arc that you know people like people like those guys that you spoke about in the book as well

[00:39:53] that's the arc that they want they want the Modi of gold and they see that promise in yogi so

[00:39:59] they want yogi to deliver what Modi hasn't been able to according to them now can I'll much

[00:40:04] of this hate music is being distributed through popular platforms like YouTube now do you

[00:40:09] think these platforms have done enough to curb this hate mongering and if not why I mean it's

[00:40:16] it's it's laughable as a chef when I look at what platforms have done especially

[00:40:20] platforms like YouTube what they essentially don't a chef is they've not just allowed you know

[00:40:26] at a very benign level you can say they've allowed this to go on right they've allowed hate

[00:40:31] speech to fester they allowed hateful rhetoric to be to be a part of the platform for me that's

[00:40:38] a very benign accusation that you can make the real accusation here and the real claim that I

[00:40:44] mean is that it's not just that they were allowed it but they've incentivized and they've funded

[00:40:49] this rhetoric you'll ask me how and I'll tell you this so many of these creators get money out of

[00:40:56] because their channels are monetized they actively earn out of their YouTube presence each time

[00:41:03] they put up a song each time they they put out a video they put out a poem they're getting money

[00:41:09] out of YouTube into their bank account which is essentially YouTube saying we like what you're doing

[00:41:15] here's money from us why don't you make some more of this why don't you go out why don't you click

[00:41:20] why don't you shoot a better video of you singing a song about how Muslims are out to get Hindus

[00:41:27] or you know if that is not enough I'll also give you a play button right so you can you can

[00:41:32] put this play button behind and you can say that YouTube has legitimized my existence by giving

[00:41:39] me this as an award right because a lot of them are struck they display the play buttons right

[00:41:43] behind them as awards whenever they come on YouTube and do their thing so that is essentially

[00:41:49] what YouTube has done so as I said it's not as benign as allowing it it's facilitating incentivizing

[00:41:55] and rewarding hateful content and hateful speech in India which is the result of which we see

[00:42:01] on us streets today I have reported on instances where there are people there is an influencer by

[00:42:07] the name of Kajal Hindustani her entire existence Ashra was based on sitting in her living room

[00:42:14] coming on to YouTube coming onto Facebook doing these live sessions where she would you know

[00:42:19] talk hateful rhetoric around Muslims around Christians around critics of the Modi government

[00:42:24] right for years all of these platforms let her build her popularity now her popularity is in millions

[00:42:33] and it's so big that even the VHP even the budget will now get her to speak at their events

[00:42:40] so in the last one year her events and her hate speeches have gone everywhere not just in

[00:42:45] Gujarat where she's from she's traveled a bunch of times to Marashra she's gone to different places

[00:42:52] and sometimes her hateful speeches have even let me wild in sententions right so what does this

[00:42:57] essentially mean this means that platforms like YouTube and Facebook are okay building up hate stars

[00:43:05] building up hate pop stars and adding to hateful rhetoric in India that is essentially

[00:43:10] what these platforms have done and all this because it creates more traffic it has people

[00:43:16] spend more time on them and so on I've spoken to I've spoken to former executives of some of

[00:43:22] these companies and they say it is it is simple we we want more people to come all to a platforms

[00:43:30] no matter how they come right so if we see there is growing engagement on certain posts

[00:43:36] even if it means it is dehumanizing another another human being we'd let it remain

[00:43:42] unless unless of course they see a mass number of people reporting the post or you know asking to bring it

[00:43:49] down or shaming them on other social media platforms that is when they take action not otherwise

[00:43:55] now much of the narrative of this pop culture is that Muslims are conspiring to make

[00:44:01] India and Islamic nation what is the population data say I mean I've spoken about this at length

[00:44:07] in the book because this is again a rhetoric that comes up a lot you know in the popular

[00:44:12] culture that I have analyzed and that I've reported in the book to put it plainly ashrof this is

[00:44:18] bullshit and and that is not me saying that is that is government data that is mathematical

[00:44:25] models that is you know population science all of this combined has come to a conclusion

[00:44:32] that unless unless Hindus stop producing kids all together right so not a single Hindu

[00:44:40] conceives a child unless that happens there is no way that Muslims are going to outnumber Hindus

[00:44:47] in this country we are at 80% and by we I mean the majority of the country Hindus right who

[00:44:54] feel that they're in danger are at 80% Muslims are at 14.23% the graphs and and this is again

[00:45:02] something that is you know already out there in the public domain there are there are models which

[00:45:06] have been run by by expert experts you know who know what what population science is different models

[00:45:13] to show that for thousands year there is there is no way that these graphs are even meeting

[00:45:18] let alone one overtaking the other so essentially there is no you know when you go by numbers

[00:45:25] when you go by logic and essentially there is no foundation to this fear which is why you know

[00:45:30] coming back to my original point that I told you off Ashraf there were sometimes these genuine

[00:45:35] grievances which could have been addressed you know by those in power today saying listen you know

[00:45:41] where in power now there is no way that Hindus are going to be harmed there is no way that

[00:45:46] another community is going to take over Hindus or there or that Hindus are going to face extinction

[00:45:52] except what they've done is they've done the opposite they've come to power and they've kept on

[00:45:59] telling you this they've recycled the myth in so many different ways in so many ways possible

[00:46:05] through different cultural forms, through different popular cultures that are Hindu today

[00:46:10] when a Hindu right wing party and when a Hindu nationalist Prime Minister is in power feels a lot more

[00:46:16] scared than he did under the Congress for instance say 15, 15 years ago that is the absurdity of

[00:46:22] it all Ashraf. So you know many of the songs and verses are about constructing a Ram temple in

[00:46:28] Nalyodhya where the Babri must have one stood and we are recording this just a couple of days before

[00:46:32] the inauguration of the Ram temple in Nalyodhya so that temple is here but the Hindu project

[00:46:37] obviously doesn't end there how do you see that this thing unfolding I think what I what I did see

[00:46:44] you know which is which is more interesting and disturbing is that the Hindu through project

[00:46:50] is almost like a shape shifting creature. It doesn't depend on just a limited number of enemies

[00:46:58] Kotankot enemies it doesn't say okay I'm just going to depend on these things and once these things

[00:47:04] are done I am finished. It's a it's a shape shifting creature which will take in whatever there is

[00:47:10] out there and create enemies out of it because essentially unless you create newer and newer

[00:47:18] enemies and unless you keep people on the boil your project is going to fail people are going

[00:47:23] to ask okay now what right I mean you've been speaking of the Ram temple you've spoken about it all

[00:47:28] of these years now what have we done no we're not done right so let's give you JNU. Let's

[00:47:35] let's show you how these people are anti Hindus in JNU. Have we done JNU's over no we can't

[00:47:41] we can't be done we'll give you the opposition we'll show you how they're all conspiring to

[00:47:47] kill Hinduism. My point essentially is that all of these efforts are made to ensure that

[00:47:53] the supply of enemies doesn't run out in this new India. The Hindu Thua Raitwing project is

[00:48:00] excellent from the perspective of those inside because it has been so successful at constantly creating

[00:48:07] newer and newer enemies. It's been so successful at constantly making people believe that their

[00:48:13] existence is in threat from all of these players you know from the media from the judiciary

[00:48:18] from Bolivod actors. So you constantly see that there are newer enemies that are created in

[00:48:23] thrown at you so you never actually stop and think okay you know I'm safe now I'm okay

[00:48:30] because tomorrow there's a newer enemy coming to you and saying we're actually not okay because

[00:48:33] there's this new guy on the block who wants to now finish you off and that is as I said the

[00:48:39] disturbing but the fascinating part about the project. I don't think it's going to end anytime soon

[00:48:45] I don't think the the way it is going to unfold is not through a definite number of tangible

[00:48:51] targets that it achieves. It is going to be a project that is going to continue for a very long time

[00:48:56] and what kind of an India do you think it will produce? Do you have hope for the country still?

[00:49:01] I do absolutely do. I mean I think history tells you that we've been in far-grimmer positions right

[00:49:11] we've seen far worse and yet we've emerged out of it and I have no doubt that we will emerge

[00:49:17] out of it. My worry is what till then? What happens in the interim? Till we are able to actually

[00:49:26] come to our senses and see the damage that it is doing because I don't know about you but I don't

[00:49:31] want to stay in an India where 900 million people are constantly looking over that shoulder

[00:49:39] and feeling like everyone is out to get them. 900 out of 1.4 billion people are feeling that they

[00:49:47] are in danger of I don't know being finished off. I don't think that's a healthy democracy.

[00:49:53] I don't think that is a healthy country there that is a healthy society where an overwhelming

[00:49:59] majority of the people feel that they're being threatened by categories or by populations which

[00:50:07] are so small in comparison. I think that is why I say that there are grimmer days ahead of us because

[00:50:14] what we've seen in all of these years, Australia, is that hate used to be something that

[00:50:20] used to be foisted or asked right? We used to see riots take place. We used to see mobs, we used to see

[00:50:26] groups coming out, lynching people, we used to see mobs which were orchestrating riots attacking

[00:50:34] people of a different community. We've entered a newer form of communalism in this country now

[00:50:42] where we don't need those groups anymore, where some of us are so radicalized that we're

[00:50:49] willing to act as lone wolves and take on the enemy no matter who the enemy is. Also whether one

[00:50:55] exists or not? Yeah, it doesn't matter if it exists or not but but essentially I am talking

[00:51:01] of those those guys the RPF constable. I'm talking of the mobs of her negat teacher. I'm talking

[00:51:07] of of those school kids in a called hapur college who objected when the school teachers said that

[00:51:14] you know rapists have no religion at all and they said how dare you say that because we know

[00:51:19] mobs limbs are rapists and then they recorded her video saying all of that made it viral and then

[00:51:25] they forced her to apologize or be sacked that is the level at which communalism has reached. It's

[00:51:32] gone away from the mobs and it's now crowdsource, it's crowdfunded communalism that we've

[00:51:38] that we're now seeing and I don't know where this is going to take us as sure. So let me ask you

[00:51:43] a happy question what's next for you? Now that the book is done. It's I mean the book is taken

[00:51:50] me four years. So it hasn't really yet completely sunk in that the book is out, that the book

[00:51:57] is being read by people. Unfortunately what I started off writing in in 2019 in four years ago

[00:52:06] is even more relevant today. Often what we see is when we when we take up these longer-term projects

[00:52:12] by the time the project finishes you say okay you know I'm glad I did it because it's now a bit

[00:52:17] accepted in this case it feels like there is even more you know even more strength in the

[00:52:23] Hindu to project than then there was four years ago. So I see myself you know investing more time

[00:52:31] more effort and more reporting resources in just being able to do what I did just being able to

[00:52:37] try and tell the story of a changing India trying to maybe get a conversation going with with different

[00:52:45] you know with with these different groups in India with with the polarized community that we're

[00:52:50] seeing in in our country where we're not ready to you know look at the other side at all. I hope

[00:52:56] that that my work is able to sort of at least make them understand what is what is happening

[00:53:01] in a part of India that not a lot of people go into. I hope that people in cities essentially

[00:53:05] especially understand how the country is changing and the processes through which the country is changing.

[00:53:13] So I'm going to continue doing that for for a while now.

[00:53:16] Good luck to you and here's here's a question I ask all my guests at the end of the show.

[00:53:23] Why do you do this work? I mean you should you should be able to tell this such a

[00:53:26] mean you can't go to the end. I know I do this work but the other guy will be in to you.

[00:53:32] I don't know Ashab I don't know if I have a very coherent sounding answer to that but

[00:53:37] I care deeply about about my country. I care deeply about my society.

[00:53:43] I deep I care deeply about the people who who live around us. You know I I told you that

[00:53:49] that when you look at history you you you find hope but you also find despair because

[00:53:56] imagine for a for a second imagine if if the current dispensation was in power when India

[00:54:02] one independence in 1947 that dispensation saw communalism or saw anything for that matter

[00:54:10] which stood in the way of uniting Indians as a threat to India because they essentially

[00:54:16] you know were fighting off all of these all of these statements from the west from those like

[00:54:21] Churchill and from you know from so many of these foreign policy experts at that point saying

[00:54:27] India is not going to last India is this massive mass of people of different religions,

[00:54:33] different cultures, different languages. There's no way India is going to last and and our leaders at

[00:54:39] that point made it their life's mission to ensure that they were wrong to ensure that India

[00:54:46] lasts and that people are one and that people are united. Imagine if this dispensation was at that

[00:54:53] you know in power would we have lasted this long? I don't know. I mean I hope that the listeners

[00:55:00] have an answer to it. You know essentially it's it's it's to be able to tell that the world's

[00:55:07] largest democracy is also the world's most peaceful democracy. It's also the world's most equal

[00:55:14] democracy where irrespective of your religion irrespective of your gender or your caste you have equal

[00:55:22] and that your rights are protected by the state. I think all journalists do journalism in the

[00:55:28] hope that things get better and hope is essentially what also drives me a shrub so I think on

[00:55:34] a very very hopeful note I want to end it there. No I think that that's extremely important

[00:55:39] to ask me why I do this work. I mean you know everything that you said is absolutely right and

[00:55:45] you care deeply for the country, you care deeply for the people around you, you care deeply for

[00:55:49] the society. Also things like the right thing to do. I mean what is it's kind of

[00:55:53] country that you want to create and what is your role in it really is it's a question people

[00:55:59] like us would be asking ourselves I guess every single day and that's why we do what we do

[00:56:05] I mean God knows it's not making us very rich but well absolutely knows

[00:56:13] yeah I think it's fashionable to attack the media it's fashionable to attack

[00:56:20] the label any criticism of the government as you know being anti-national but I think what people

[00:56:27] don't see is what it takes to be in these spaces right what it takes to continue being in the media

[00:56:34] at a time when the media you know I always joke that you know the media doesn't pay

[00:56:40] but it at least gives you a certain sort of degree of respect and and even the respect is gone

[00:56:45] now right so the pay is absolutely gone but even the respect is gone now and I hope that people

[00:56:51] realize that I think the way to a healthier democracy is going through a free press is going to an

[00:56:59] independent minded press which can tell you the truth no matter how harsh it is. It's not to shout

[00:57:05] down you know criticism as being anti-India it is to take it in stride because essentially what

[00:57:11] we all want is the same essentially what we want is is a peaceful is a safe country the peaceful

[00:57:19] and safe society so essentially all our aims are the same you know and I hope that people also

[00:57:24] start seeing that the media when when it does its duty well is essentially also trying to do the same

[00:57:31] good ah thanks so much for making the time. Thank you so much Ashara I hope that you know people

[00:57:37] do pick up the book and I hope that people engage even even even if they don't pick up the book

[00:57:42] I hope people engage with you know rapidly changing India I hope people make conversation I hope

[00:57:49] people don't give up because nothing is more dangerous than giving up and living in despair

[00:57:55] so yeah I hope people do that but thank you so much for having me Ashara it's been an absolute

[00:58:01] delight in an honour to be in conversation with you. Thank you so much for being here and for

[00:58:05] listeners the book is called H pop the secret of world of Hindu pop stars the Otris Kunal Purohit

[00:58:11] and it's available everywhere just look online. Thank you all for listening please visit all

[00:58:17] Indians matter dot in that say double L i and d i a n s m a double t e r dot i n for my columns

[00:58:23] an audio podcast you can follow me on twitter at astrophonginia.

[00:58:26] This a s h r a f e n g i n w r and all Indians count that say double l i and d i a n s c o u n t

[00:58:34] search for the all Indians matter page on facebook on instagram the handle is all Indians matter email

[00:58:39] me at editor at allindians matter dot in catch you again soon