I came across a musical Daastangoi performance, ‘Jo Dooba So Paar’, by chance. And it showed me how the arts can bring people together. It’s much needed, especially in these times of great social fissures. The show embodied the message of harmony that the intertwined lives of Nizamuddin Auliya and Amir Khusrau delivered and reminded us that communities across the world are in need of something to bring them together as a unified society.
All Indians Matter speaks to Ajitesh Gupta, lead and co-director of the show. The conversation crackled; don’t miss it.
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter. I am Ashraf Engineer.
[00:00:03] I had an interesting experience a while ago. I caught an excerpt of a musical Dasthan Goy performance at the Spoken Fest 2024 in Mumbai.
[00:00:12] Intrigued, I posted about it on social media. Somebody saw the post and connected me to the co-director Ajitesh Gupta.
[00:00:19] Subsequently, I caught the entire show at Prithvi Theatre in Mumbai.
[00:00:23] Joe Duba Sopar is an extraordinary telling of the life of Aamir Khusro, who in my opinion anyway is the greatest poet India has produced.
[00:00:31] He was also the favorite disciple of Nizamuddin Aulia whose Dargah in Delhi is a sanctuary for all.
[00:00:37] Khusro's life is a saga and kawali which he invented is one of the great syncretic traditions of India.
[00:00:43] It struck me during the performance of Joe Duba Sopar, which stressed on the eternally relevant message of love among humankind, is how the arts can bring people together.
[00:00:52] It's a crying need, especially in these times of great social fractures.
[00:00:56] That it works was evident in the auditorium itself with everyone coming together to clap and sing along,
[00:01:02] expressing support for the message of harmony that the intertwined lives of Nizamuddin Aulia and Khusro embodied.
[00:01:08] It reminded me that communities across the world are in need of something to bring them together as a unified society.
[00:01:15] We have on the show Ajitesh Gupta, co-director and lead of Jodhu Baso Par.
[00:01:25] Ajitesh is an actor, director, playwright, singer and voice artist based in Mumbai.
[00:01:30] In his theatrical journey of more than 13 years, he has acted in plays like Manav Kaul's Amtaz Bhai Patangwale,
[00:01:36] Color Blind, Lal Pencil, Sunil Shanbhag's musical Stories in a Song and many others.
[00:01:41] A trained vocalist, Ajitesh has done a lot of work in musical theatre.
[00:01:46] It was in 2019 that he wrote, directed and performed his own musical Dastan Goyi performance, Jodhu Baso Par,
[00:01:52] which has since been staged at several prestigious venues and festivals.
[00:01:56] The Urdu art form of Dastan Goyi is his true love and he is currently working on creating more Dastans.
[00:02:02] He is the creative producer of Manav Kaul's theatre group Aranya and has acted in films like Shadi Me Zaroor Ana,
[00:02:07] Milan Talkies, Helicopter Ela, Ajeeb Dastans and Govinda Mera Naam.
[00:02:12] He has been in web series like Ghar Vapasi and Dr. Arora.
[00:02:15] It was for Ghar Vapasi that he was nominated for the Filmfare Best Actor Comedy OTT Award.
[00:02:20] Ajitesh, welcome.
[00:02:22] Thank you so much Ashraf. I am glad to be on All Indians Matter.
[00:02:25] Thanks Ajitesh. Ajitesh, when we say that the arts can generate social capital to bring communities together,
[00:02:31] what do we mean?
[00:02:33] I think social capital is something that some people simplify.
[00:02:39] Some people search for a sense of belonging, find it, connect with the same things,
[00:02:47] and a division is lost.
[00:02:51] They cannot talk to each other in a safe manner,
[00:02:57] or feel equally on an equal plane.
[00:03:02] So I think all the artists in the world, whether they are painters, singers, dancers, playwrights, writers, actors,
[00:03:13] I think they are small or big philosophers.
[00:03:20] They see a circle of life and feel something,
[00:03:25] they feel that this is what I should say, or this is my story,
[00:03:29] or the world we are living in, how can I contribute to make it a better world through my art?
[00:03:36] That is the place where the concept of social capital is generated.
[00:03:41] So I think when the most basic thing is that if a show is listed on a bookmine show or an insider or any platform,
[00:03:49] and when you decide to go watch this show,
[00:03:53] then the first aspect of social capital is completed there itself.
[00:03:58] That you want to feel the same liking, hear the same things, and say the same things,
[00:04:03] that is why you have reached there.
[00:04:05] And then arts are the barriers that we have created in our lives,
[00:04:11] or living in a society with time,
[00:04:14] religion, politics, caste, creed, financial stature,
[00:04:20] all these barriers that arise,
[00:04:24] if an artist is saying his own thing beyond all of them,
[00:04:28] which you are watching together,
[00:04:30] then what happens is that it hits you at a place that can be said to be very primal,
[00:04:38] it hits you at a very human level.
[00:04:42] Where, for example, a child hears something and plays it without thinking about what it has been said,
[00:04:49] or what its political inclination is,
[00:04:52] similarly, that art touches us at a place where all these barriers are left.
[00:04:59] So for this reason, I definitely feel that art is something where it can generate social capital
[00:05:10] because when everyone feels a certain way,
[00:05:15] now how will you tell your heart not to feel this,
[00:05:18] you should feel something else.
[00:05:20] Whereas the heart is feeling something, the mind is feeling something,
[00:05:24] and when so many people feel something together,
[00:05:27] then for a short time they definitely forget who we are,
[00:05:31] who the other person is,
[00:05:33] and which direction I should be inclined towards,
[00:05:36] whom I should talk to, whom I should hate, whom I should love.
[00:05:40] That thing happens that we all have felt this together,
[00:05:43] we all have seen and felt something,
[00:05:47] and this is somehow a truth that does not need any explanation in words,
[00:05:54] but it exists,
[00:05:56] and after that, like you just talked about the Jodhu Basupar,
[00:06:01] after seeing the Jodhu Basupar, people of different religions, different ages, different places, different languages come and see,
[00:06:09] and many times people laugh together,
[00:06:12] many times people cry,
[00:06:14] many times people cry that they did not know that this was the story of Ameer Khusro and Nizamuddin Auliya,
[00:06:19] this is a story like we met a classical singer some time ago
[00:06:24] who said Ameer Khusro, I am and my Guru Nizamuddin Auliya,
[00:06:28] because whatever he told me in classical music and taught me,
[00:06:31] I feel the same way about him as I feel about Ameer Khusro and Nizamuddin Auliya,
[00:06:36] and that person was called Kannada and he did not know Hindi very well,
[00:06:45] but he was able to connect with us and that thing,
[00:06:49] and then when the audience comes out,
[00:06:52] then many times people discuss together that this thing felt like this,
[00:06:56] this thing felt like this,
[00:06:58] so in a way, equality and social capital is definitely an art form,
[00:07:03] because art is as universal as personal,
[00:07:08] and when it becomes universal, then these circles stop mattering in it, I think.
[00:07:15] Absolutely, I think what you said is very very important and very insightful,
[00:07:20] because I was about to say that there is also a physicality of the arts, isn't it?
[00:07:24] You come together in an auditorium or gallery and are moved together by what you experience.
[00:07:30] Definitely, the physicality is a very very very important aspect,
[00:07:33] and that's why I mean when we talk about theatre especially
[00:07:37] or a performance where a community is watching together,
[00:07:40] you might come with a certain opinion,
[00:07:44] you might be going through a certain thing in your life,
[00:07:47] but when you see that out of 100 people, 99 people are smiling
[00:07:52] and having fun at something like this,
[00:07:54] there is a catalytic effect of laughter,
[00:07:58] there is a catalytic effect of love,
[00:08:00] there is a catalytic effect of sorrow also that everybody feels together.
[00:08:05] So, and here I would also like to say that
[00:08:08] because we are performing an art form such as Dastan Goyi,
[00:08:13] the catalytic effect is not only amongst the audience,
[00:08:17] it also transfers to us as performers,
[00:08:20] because when I am performing and talking to the audience about something
[00:08:23] and I see the person sitting in the fourth row,
[00:08:26] gently sobbing or their tears are coming out,
[00:08:32] so with that person's tears, I become emotional as a performer.
[00:08:36] Because I feel that I wrote this thing a few years ago
[00:08:39] and today it is getting cathartic for someone else,
[00:08:43] that idea becomes so beautiful in itself that I become emotional myself.
[00:08:47] I am not emotional at the moment that I am describing the death of Ameer Khushro's father,
[00:08:54] so I am not emotional about Ameer Khushro's father's death.
[00:08:57] I am emotional about the fact that maybe the person who is crying in front of him
[00:09:01] or is crying, there is something melted in it for this
[00:09:05] and that thing connects me and that person in such a way
[00:09:09] that his sorrow becomes my sorrow at that point.
[00:09:12] And it adds a certain dimension to your performance also, isn't it?
[00:09:16] It changes the way you remote yourself.
[00:09:18] Definitely, especially because Dastang Goyi Artform
[00:09:23] was made after breaking the fourth wall.
[00:09:27] If this is a theatrical performance in which you are performing in isolation
[00:09:31] and you think that we are performing a play from the 17th century
[00:09:35] and the audience is not there, we are performing because we will perform our own way,
[00:09:39] people will see and go, which is mostly done in plays.
[00:09:42] But Dastang Goyi is an art form of conversation.
[00:09:45] When we talk, the audience feeds from what we feel
[00:09:49] and the audience feeds from what we feel
[00:09:51] and that is a give and take process going on throughout the performance.
[00:09:55] If we talk about Dastang Goyi,
[00:09:58] you know the power of storytelling Ajitesh,
[00:10:00] would you agree that it's also the capacity to tell a community's shared story,
[00:10:04] inspire reflection and form connections that cuts through the differences?
[00:10:11] Definitely, I feel so.
[00:10:15] I mean, see, when I'm talking about Nizamuddin Oliya's story
[00:10:20] and when I'm talking about Ameer Khosrow's story,
[00:10:24] being a born Hindu, I feel there is a responsibility that I have
[00:10:30] towards the fellow Muslims of my community, my country,
[00:10:36] to tell their story because their story today is being painted
[00:10:42] the time that we are living in. It's being painted in a particular way
[00:10:45] and I feel extremely sad when I see my cousins, my younger brothers
[00:10:51] and the youngsters of this country today
[00:10:54] feeling a particular way about a particular community
[00:10:57] whereas I do not think that you can generalize a community in a particular way.
[00:11:03] So when I'm telling Nizamuddin Oliya's story,
[00:11:06] I am also telling the stories of all people belonging to that community
[00:11:10] and saying that this is not the only picture that you should see
[00:11:14] about this community that is being shown to you.
[00:11:17] There is a lot more that needs to be said, that needs to be understood,
[00:11:21] that needs to be researched on a particular level, on a personal level
[00:11:25] before coming to conclusions about anybody in this world.
[00:11:28] Yeah, and I think that brings us to the aspect of engagement between the communities
[00:11:33] which has maybe reduced a bit today, at least in my opinion.
[00:11:37] So what about the arts as a medium for engagement between communities?
[00:11:41] Because after all art is communicative, it helps people from various cultures
[00:11:45] understand and communicate with each other through songs, pictures, stories.
[00:11:50] Absolutely, like this famous quote, music has no language.
[00:11:55] Similarly, if we look at it one more level, art has no language.
[00:11:59] Art has no religion, art has no barriers.
[00:12:04] It has its own religion, it has its own language.
[00:12:08] So when I look at the potato eaters of Bangkok,
[00:12:13] which they had made in the 19th century,
[00:12:18] or maybe 19th century,
[00:12:22] when I look at them, I see the pain of those people from that coal mine
[00:12:28] who only grow potatoes for a year and eat potatoes.
[00:12:33] I can still feel it from that painting.
[00:12:37] I have no idea what community they belonged to,
[00:12:41] or what their religion was. I see them as humans,
[00:12:45] fellow humans, fellow creatures made by the same God, Universe,
[00:12:49] power, whatever you can say. So I am already engaging with that.
[00:12:53] And the answer to this question is only a yes.
[00:12:58] Because we human beings,
[00:13:03] understanding, interpreting and then reaching a conclusion
[00:13:08] is part of our character.
[00:13:12] We naturally do this. We do it day and night.
[00:13:15] We do this before leaving home and entering the house.
[00:13:18] We don't have to judge anyone by their shoes.
[00:13:23] So the way we engage with art,
[00:13:29] we are all on an equal plane,
[00:13:34] no matter what community they belong to.
[00:13:48] So how much is the level of social change?
[00:13:51] For example, theatre.
[00:13:54] The theatre is catering to a community of 200, 500, 800, 1000,
[00:13:57] max to max 2000 people at one point.
[00:14:01] So whatever message we are giving,
[00:14:05] that social change is happening within us.
[00:14:09] Or even if there is no social change, then it is leaving a question.
[00:14:13] The absolute truth is what I thought.
[00:14:18] Or is there more to it for me to think, research, comprehend?
[00:14:24] But if we look at another example,
[00:14:28] for example, if we look at a movie called 3 Idiots,
[00:14:32] when a movie like 3 Idiots comes out, it changes us all.
[00:14:36] A generation of our parents says that
[00:14:40] R Madhavan's father allowed him to take photographs,
[00:14:43] so let us do our own thing.
[00:14:46] Because his engagement with 3 Idiots is so high,
[00:14:50] that the whole country watches it and he doesn't need to tell a context,
[00:14:54] the context has already been set.
[00:14:56] So I also told my father that his father allowed R Madhavan to take photographs,
[00:15:01] you are also a father, let me do music.
[00:15:04] So this social change is what is already happening in our lives.
[00:15:08] And I saw this in my life while I was doing Jodhubas,
[00:15:13] that whatever I want to say to the world is reaching people,
[00:15:17] they are thinking about it and something is changing within them.
[00:15:22] Right. So again just in the same context,
[00:15:25] do you think that the arts can be also a tool of empowerment?
[00:15:28] And if yes, how?
[00:15:30] Look, we are all different types of humans.
[00:15:36] As I talk about myself, I was a very introvert child in my childhood.
[00:15:42] And very introvert, insecure, under confident,
[00:15:46] scared, scared, such a child.
[00:15:51] And then one day I got the opportunity to sing at my school's stage.
[00:15:56] And I locked myself in my house room and hid from my parents
[00:16:01] and prepared a song with a lot of effort.
[00:16:04] Because it was my safe space, there was no need to be an introvert or extrovert.
[00:16:08] I sit in my room and prepare a song.
[00:16:11] And then I go to the stage with a lot of courage and sing that song on the stage.
[00:16:16] Now when I sing that song on the stage, the whole school listens to it
[00:16:20] and everyone starts appreciating me that this is the same boy who sang the song today.
[00:16:24] This is the same boy who sang the song today.
[00:16:26] So as a human being, that day I understood that this is my power.
[00:16:31] I am not that child who can speak a lot or was good in studies or in fights.
[00:16:40] So I am not good in both, no problem.
[00:16:42] But this is my own power and that power empowers me so much
[00:16:47] that I decide my career path based on that one moment, an event
[00:16:54] and by following that career, I have reached here today.
[00:16:58] This is my point. But you think that art is a means by which
[00:17:05] no matter how any person feels his or her flaws,
[00:17:13] to say it, to reclaim his or her space in this world,
[00:17:19] everyone has a very good way through art because you are not speaking directly.
[00:17:25] You are not speaking directly, you are speaking through a story.
[00:17:28] So that story may be yours but you say that it happened to Ramesh
[00:17:33] and not to me.
[00:17:35] So you get a way to say your own story through someone else
[00:17:38] which is a very powerful way to reclaim your space in this world.
[00:17:46] Right. Which song was that by the way? Which you sang in school?
[00:17:49] That song was from the film Border which came in 1997 I think
[00:17:55] and generally border film songs are always mentioned.
[00:17:59] But in the end credits, there is a song called
[00:18:03] Jhang to Chand Roj Hoti Hai Zindagi Barsu Talak Roti Hai
[00:18:07] which was sung by Sonu Nigam and Hariharan.
[00:18:09] I had prepared that song.
[00:18:11] I had prepared that song so that when I was watching the film Border,
[00:18:15] we were watching it in the theatre and after the film ends,
[00:18:18] people start waking up when the end credits come.
[00:18:20] But I couldn't get up from my seat after watching that song.
[00:18:23] My parents also woke up and I told them that I have to listen to the song
[00:18:26] and that song hit me somewhere inside which I can't tell you any reason
[00:18:31] but that song hit me.
[00:18:33] Then I bought its cassette, I wrote that song in my diary
[00:18:37] and listened to it again and again and remembered it.
[00:18:39] For no reason, I didn't know that I would sing it.
[00:18:42] But I can say that in a generic language,
[00:18:46] I am an insect of arts.
[00:18:48] But when I look at my life objectively,
[00:18:52] I tell them that there was some fire within me
[00:18:55] which I cannot take credit of.
[00:18:57] It just existed.
[00:18:58] I was born with that fire
[00:19:00] and that fire was so powerful that it drew me towards where
[00:19:05] you know, it had to go.
[00:19:07] I couldn't help it.
[00:19:08] The flow was so strong that I had to flow with it.
[00:19:11] I didn't have any other option for any other career
[00:19:14] because it was so strong inside me
[00:19:17] that I had no option but to follow it.
[00:19:20] I think the song that you are referring to is called
[00:19:23] mere dushman mere bhai and am I right?
[00:19:27] Exactly.
[00:19:28] Actually that line that you...
[00:19:30] Exactly, mere dushman mere bhai mere hum chai.
[00:19:32] That line that in fact that you repeated
[00:19:35] reminds me very much of Sahir Ludhianvi's
[00:19:37] I think it was a poem
[00:19:39] in which he says that
[00:19:40] jang to khudi ek masla hai maslo ka hal kya degi.
[00:19:43] What a thing.
[00:19:44] Yes, absolutely.
[00:19:45] And I follow Sahir a lot in many things.
[00:19:47] I liked Sahir a lot.
[00:19:49] Sahir Ludhianvi.
[00:19:50] That's a magnificent poem.
[00:19:52] But anyway, just continuing with what we are talking about.
[00:19:54] I think Ajitesh across the world
[00:19:57] countries and communities are going through a very tough phase.
[00:20:00] One in which divisive forces are holding sway
[00:20:03] rather than uniting forces.
[00:20:05] Now for social cohesion
[00:20:07] would you say that the arts then are even more important than ever?
[00:20:12] Yes, it is obvious that
[00:20:15] arts are very important than ever.
[00:20:17] But the thing is
[00:20:19] the market of arts
[00:20:21] because of that
[00:20:23] it is becoming even more difficult
[00:20:27] that the work that arts do
[00:20:30] in social cohesion for society
[00:20:32] they can do it today.
[00:20:34] It is becoming more and more difficult.
[00:20:36] It is still okay for people like us.
[00:20:38] I mean people like us, theater makers
[00:20:40] because they cater to a small audience.
[00:20:43] But because I work in cinema too
[00:20:46] and I have many friends who are writers, directors, producers.
[00:20:50] In today's history if any person has written a film on a political topic
[00:20:56] then no corporate production house is ready to give a hand on it.
[00:21:00] So now when the market is not allowing it, what will arts do?
[00:21:04] It will do it.
[00:21:05] Because when that film is not ready
[00:21:07] then that film will be written on a paper on a laptop.
[00:21:10] So I think it is definitely very important.
[00:21:13] And the second thing is
[00:21:15] art comes out of the rubble.
[00:21:17] Artists are always rubble.
[00:21:19] And when there is a rubble
[00:21:21] then the kind of society that they see
[00:21:23] and when they feel that something is going wrong in that society
[00:21:26] then they have no option
[00:21:28] apart from that, to make it a better world
[00:21:31] and try to do what is in their hands.
[00:21:34] So it does it.
[00:21:37] But until the market supports it, how will it be?
[00:21:40] I mean we have been able to make Jodhubal Supar
[00:21:43] like Manav Kolh, who was a producer
[00:21:46] who said that you tell the story you want to tell.
[00:21:49] The work of financial backing is mine.
[00:21:52] But if it didn't happen
[00:21:54] then this performance wouldn't exist.
[00:21:59] So it is definitely necessary.
[00:22:01] And right now it is even more important.
[00:22:04] But I think it is like
[00:22:06] it is a long night of sorrow, but it is night.
[00:22:11] So when it will pass
[00:22:13] then those times, like we talk about Germany
[00:22:16] the Germany in Nazi era
[00:22:18] what was happening in that Germany
[00:22:22] people were approving it
[00:22:24] and as it went on, it ended.
[00:22:26] When it ended
[00:22:27] A whole generation of Germans have lived in guilt
[00:22:30] because of the Nazi guilt.
[00:22:33] You can't buy or sell or read Minkampf in Germany
[00:22:39] and how much cinema has come out of Nazism
[00:22:43] so much art has been generated
[00:22:45] So if you are keeping it under pressure
[00:22:47] then when this night ends and the morning comes
[00:22:50] then it will be said that people are dying to say it now.
[00:22:54] I am so glad you quoted Faiz Ahmed Faiz
[00:22:57] Dil na umeed to nahi na kaam hi to hai
[00:22:59] Lambi hai gam ki shaam, magar shaam hi to hai
[00:23:02] It is one of my favourite poets by the way.
[00:23:05] Ajitesh let's talk about Kawali specifically.
[00:23:08] Why do you think it is such a syncretic tradition
[00:23:11] inclusive and not of one faith alone
[00:23:14] and why is it such a powerful art form?
[00:23:17] In this I will start with an anecdote
[00:23:22] There is an anecdote, no one can say how true it is
[00:23:27] but of course this is an anecdotal thing
[00:23:30] which I found out when I was researching about it
[00:23:34] that what happened was
[00:23:36] the first Sufis who came to India were
[00:23:39] Baba Mohinduddin Chishti, Gharib Nawaz Rehmatullah
[00:23:43] Ajmer Sharif Dargaj is for them
[00:23:46] So basically their Guru had said
[00:23:48] you go to India
[00:23:50] and forward our message there
[00:23:54] So they closed their eyes
[00:23:56] Guru's order was there
[00:23:58] so they came to India
[00:24:00] Now they came to India
[00:24:02] they lived near Ajmer
[00:24:04] They lived there for a night
[00:24:06] they heard some music
[00:24:08] so they told their disciples
[00:24:10] what is this sound?
[00:24:12] So when the disciples went there
[00:24:14] they saw that aarti is being performed inside a temple
[00:24:17] and people are singing and dancing to please their God
[00:24:22] and many people are standing outside
[00:24:25] So they asked why are you standing outside?
[00:24:27] They said that because we are from a different caste
[00:24:30] we are not allowed inside the temple
[00:24:32] So when the disciples came back
[00:24:35] they said that they are singing to please their God
[00:24:39] So Baba Mohinduddin Chishti said
[00:24:41] this is a beautiful thing that they are singing to please their God
[00:24:44] So why not we also sing the words of our Prophet
[00:24:48] We also sing
[00:24:50] So they took a duffali
[00:24:52] So the beginning of Kabbali was from this point
[00:24:54] people say
[00:24:56] from this point
[00:24:58] They ordered a duffali
[00:25:00] played something on the duffali
[00:25:02] and started singing the call of their Prophet
[00:25:04] So when they started singing
[00:25:06] people came out of that sound
[00:25:08] So some people stood outside
[00:25:10] They said why are you standing outside?
[00:25:12] They said that we are not allowed inside
[00:25:14] because we are not allowed to go inside the temple
[00:25:16] We are not allowed to go inside the place of God
[00:25:18] So they said that if you are not allowed to go inside the place of God
[00:25:20] then it is the most wrong thing
[00:25:22] because everyone is equal in the eyes of God
[00:25:24] and for everyone God is equal
[00:25:26] So don't stand outside, come inside
[00:25:28] So they came inside
[00:25:30] They sang
[00:25:32] They danced
[00:25:34] and before going they were given food
[00:25:36] to eat and not go home hungry
[00:25:38] So the beginning of Kabbali
[00:25:40] If the beginning of Kabbali is from this point
[00:25:42] then it is obvious
[00:25:44] that it is an inclusive art form
[00:25:46] It is not created to
[00:25:48] call you small, big, tall, low
[00:25:50] anywhere
[00:25:52] It is created
[00:25:54] to take you
[00:25:56] into such a space
[00:25:58] or to take you into such a trance
[00:26:00] where you dig your own grave
[00:26:02] where you forget all your sorrows
[00:26:04] where you forget your identity
[00:26:06] So when this art form
[00:26:08] has started from here
[00:26:10] then it is obvious that
[00:26:12] it will be a syncretic thing
[00:26:14] and
[00:26:16] if I say it in another way
[00:26:18] what is Sufism?
[00:26:20] What does Sufism do?
[00:26:22] Just like the Bhakti movement does
[00:26:24] the ones who sing
[00:26:26] Nirgun bhajan have become poets in our country
[00:26:28] The work that Kabirdas
[00:26:30] did, Sehju Waii
[00:26:32] did, the work that Tukaram
[00:26:34] did, the work that
[00:26:36] many poets in the south
[00:26:38] did,
[00:26:40] the work that Lala Lair did
[00:26:42] the work that
[00:26:44] Surdas did, Meera ji did
[00:26:46] They all said that this is not a
[00:26:48] Uch, this is Shakti, this is Raja
[00:26:50] this is Brahman and this and this
[00:26:52] remove all these things
[00:26:54] What kind of rituals are you in?
[00:26:56] Remove all these things
[00:26:58] Talk about heart to heart
[00:27:00] Now when it is about heart to heart
[00:27:02] then it is the same thing
[00:27:04] When someone
[00:27:06] comes from England
[00:27:08] they say that this is water
[00:27:10] So an Indian person says that this is water
[00:27:12] So someone from Afghanistan comes
[00:27:14] and says that this is water
[00:27:16] Someone else comes and says that this is Vaii
[00:27:18] So in the end someone says
[00:27:20] when one is thirsty what do we do?
[00:27:22] They say that we drink this
[00:27:24] So they say talk about the one who drinks
[00:27:26] Why are you stuck in these words and things?
[00:27:28] So when Sufism says
[00:27:30] and Qawwali is a Sufi art form
[00:27:32] It is a Sufism art form
[00:27:34] So the main thing
[00:27:36] is that it should be syncretic
[00:27:38] and equal for everyone
[00:27:40] and not divide anyone
[00:27:42] and say that this is ours, this is yours
[00:27:44] this is right, this is wrong
[00:27:46] Absolutely
[00:27:48] And there was a sub question
[00:27:50] Why is it such a powerful art form?
[00:27:52] I didn't know the answer to that
[00:27:54] question before
[00:27:56] But when I started performing Qawwali properly
[00:27:58] then I understood the reason
[00:28:00] that the taali played in Qawwali
[00:28:02] that playing the taali
[00:28:04] is a physical action
[00:28:06] and what does that physical action do?
[00:28:08] It takes your body
[00:28:10] to a heightened
[00:28:12] intensity in terms of
[00:28:14] physicality also, mentally also
[00:28:16] and emotionally also
[00:28:18] And you think that when
[00:28:20] we are playing a song
[00:28:22] in discotheque
[00:28:24] where the bass is strong
[00:28:26] and the drum is going
[00:28:28] then the drum
[00:28:30] starts moving your body
[00:28:32] So many things
[00:28:34] go from soul to body
[00:28:36] from emotion to body
[00:28:38] and from body to emotion
[00:28:40] So this is an art form
[00:28:42] where knowledge and knowledge are irrelevant
[00:28:44] But the taalis that 12-15 people
[00:28:46] play together, it takes
[00:28:48] the body with it
[00:28:50] Like in the bhajans when people
[00:28:52] start playing taalis together
[00:28:54] What is the reason for that?
[00:28:56] So when you physically
[00:28:58] do this action, it also takes
[00:29:00] you to a heightened space
[00:29:26] This is a very interesting point
[00:29:28] I never thought about this
[00:29:30] the physicality of the hand claps
[00:29:32] that actually then go inwards
[00:29:34] So Qawwali Ajitesh as we understand it today
[00:29:36] originated in Nizamuddin Olya's
[00:29:38] public gathering
[00:29:40] Now that itself was a sanctuary
[00:29:42] for everyone, remains so even today
[00:29:44] Now as we've discussed
[00:29:46] it was the perfect incubator for a tradition like Qawwali
[00:29:48] Do you think we have enough
[00:29:50] such spaces in the modern context?
[00:29:52] And if not, what can we do about it?
[00:29:54] I'd like to just bring one point forward
[00:29:56] that I do not think
[00:29:58] as per my research
[00:30:00] I don't have much research, I am not a scholar
[00:30:02] I don't have any authority in this subject
[00:30:04] But Qawwali originated in Nizamuddin Olya's
[00:30:06] public gathering
[00:30:08] Qawwali originated during the time of Moinuddin Chishti
[00:30:10] Sorry, I'm not saying it originated there
[00:30:12] I'm saying it became what it is today
[00:30:14] Largely because of
[00:30:16] Khusro and Nizamuddin Olya
[00:30:18] and what happened in the public gathering
[00:30:20] Yes, yes, absolutely
[00:30:22] He gave it a structure and a form
[00:30:24] And
[00:30:26] under Ameer Khusro
[00:30:28] a man named Qawwal Bachche
[00:30:30] Ameer Khusro started
[00:30:32] in Nizamuddin Olya's public gathering
[00:30:34] Qawwal Bachche, whose work was Qawwali
[00:30:36] he taught Khusro as well
[00:30:38] So from there a structure was defined
[00:30:40] So now let's come to the question
[00:30:42] I definitely think that
[00:30:44] there is a shortage of such spaces today
[00:30:46] because
[00:30:48] see time and
[00:30:50] see life
[00:30:52] so many centuries
[00:30:54] have passed
[00:30:56] life has changed a lot
[00:30:58] Now we are in the
[00:31:00] rush of everyday life
[00:31:02] where money is so important
[00:31:04] capital is so important
[00:31:06] A slow life
[00:31:08] a slow life
[00:31:10] where there are not so many
[00:31:12] desires, there is not so much
[00:31:14] apadhapi
[00:31:16] there was more possibility of such things
[00:31:18] But the change in time and life
[00:31:20] especially in the modern age
[00:31:22] which we are in
[00:31:24] which has changed in the last 50 years
[00:31:26] since radio, television, internet
[00:31:28] and social media
[00:31:30] have come
[00:31:32] everything has become market based
[00:31:34] so if it doesn't sell
[00:31:36] then don't take risk
[00:31:38] as the patterns are going on
[00:31:40] we have to work on those patterns
[00:31:42] there is no space for such people
[00:31:44] there is no space for such thoughts
[00:31:46] so I think there are definitely
[00:31:48] very very few such places
[00:31:50] in my opinion
[00:31:52] and this is
[00:31:54] a dark tunnel
[00:31:56] I hope that in this dark tunnel
[00:31:58] somewhere a light
[00:32:00] or a lamp is burning
[00:32:02] or some new form is taking place
[00:32:04] somewhere on some level
[00:32:06] because whatever traditions
[00:32:08] we talk about, whether you take khawali
[00:32:10] or wari
[00:32:12] or the traditions
[00:32:14] in Punjabi
[00:32:16] or the traditions in Punjabi
[00:32:18] like heer is sung
[00:32:20] these art forms were not always alive
[00:32:22] they were somewhere in between
[00:32:24] the evolution of human beings
[00:32:26] and then they remained
[00:32:28] because they were relevant
[00:32:30] now what is
[00:32:32] where we are now
[00:32:34] there is less space for such things
[00:32:36] other things have filled up
[00:32:38] that is the thing
[00:32:40] our bucket
[00:32:42] is already filled up
[00:32:44] there is no space for such things
[00:32:46] and if someone
[00:32:48] tries to fill up the empty space
[00:32:50] then people say that the bucket is already very heavy
[00:32:52] throw this thing out
[00:32:54] and how will it survive
[00:32:56] focus on that
[00:32:58] so I have
[00:33:00] no answer to this question
[00:33:02] I don't know
[00:33:04] what we can do about it
[00:33:06] I think
[00:33:08] people make small efforts
[00:33:10] this is
[00:33:12] as I say about theater
[00:33:14] theater has changed a lot in the last 10 years
[00:33:16] slowly
[00:33:18] intimate spaces have started to come
[00:33:20] more for 35 people
[00:33:22] performance for 100 people
[00:33:24] performances have started to increase
[00:33:26] because performing in big spaces is getting more difficult day by day
[00:33:28] unless until you have
[00:33:30] capital or you are a celebrity
[00:33:32] or you have
[00:33:34] some brand or something
[00:33:36] so if someone
[00:33:38] a young boy or girl
[00:33:40] writes a new play
[00:33:42] which is an idea of a different style
[00:33:44] or wants to engage with a different art form
[00:33:46] then there is no
[00:33:48] possibility to sustain it financially
[00:33:50] that is not possible in an NCPA or Prithvi theater
[00:33:52] or Rang Shankara or India Habitat center
[00:33:54] I can't perform
[00:33:56] because he will have to spend so much money
[00:33:58] and then there will be no recovery
[00:34:00] so
[00:34:02] because of this the small spaces
[00:34:04] which have developed maybe that is
[00:34:06] the hope in theater
[00:34:08] that experimental work can be done
[00:34:10] in small spaces
[00:34:12] and maybe something new
[00:34:14] will come out of it
[00:34:36] the take of the box office
[00:34:38] or the ticket price
[00:34:40] the money that you make from sales of tickets
[00:34:42] is lower
[00:34:44] so how do we keep alive something so important
[00:34:46] to society there
[00:34:48] it is difficult
[00:34:50] but that is
[00:34:52] survival of the fittest
[00:34:54] and definitely
[00:34:56] funding is impossible
[00:34:58] not very difficult
[00:35:00] it is impossible if you don't have any backing
[00:35:02] or no name
[00:35:04] but I can say as an example
[00:35:06] when we made Jodhubba Supar
[00:35:08] then the first show was for 50 people
[00:35:10] thinking that we will do
[00:35:12] 4-5 shows for small spaces
[00:35:14] like intimate meetings
[00:35:16] but because
[00:35:18] there were some things in performance
[00:35:20] which connected people
[00:35:22] it has reached such a place
[00:35:24] where we perform for 5000 people
[00:35:26] and
[00:35:28] it has become financially sustainable
[00:35:30] in fact the play is sustaining itself
[00:35:32] there is no investment
[00:35:34] or we perform
[00:35:36] and it gets the fee
[00:35:38] and everyone gets the payment
[00:35:40] and we save something to make our next performance
[00:35:42] so
[00:35:44] the age old saying
[00:35:46] Himmate Marda Madade Khuda Wali
[00:35:48] somewhere I feel
[00:35:50] the age old saying
[00:35:52] which our great poets and poets have said
[00:35:54] there is some strength in it
[00:35:56] that if you will relentlessly
[00:35:58] that for me
[00:36:00] it is a question of life and death
[00:36:02] it is not that I am convenient
[00:36:04] or I am convenient
[00:36:06] that I have done it
[00:36:08] for me it is a question of life and death
[00:36:10] that I have to do this
[00:36:12] if I don't do it then it will be difficult for me to breathe
[00:36:14] if for me
[00:36:16] the stakes are so high
[00:36:18] then somehow I will do the survival
[00:36:20] and I will perform my art
[00:36:22] whatever happens
[00:36:24] and when you work on this stake
[00:36:26] then somewhere
[00:36:28] there is some help
[00:36:30] like in our case Manav Kaur
[00:36:32] when we started
[00:36:34] Manav produced the play
[00:36:36] he gave us the capital
[00:36:38] that you make this play
[00:36:40] I am giving you this money
[00:36:42] but we started in intimate spaces
[00:36:44] so 35 people are buying tickets
[00:36:46] so how much money will come
[00:36:48] so after buying tickets for 35 people
[00:36:50] 7000-8000 rupees are coming
[00:36:52] and our team is 12 people
[00:36:54] so how much money should I give them
[00:36:56] I am giving them one show for 500 rupees
[00:36:58] what happens in 500 rupees
[00:37:00] so when we had 6-7 shows
[00:37:02] then we thought
[00:37:04] what to do now
[00:37:06] what do I do
[00:37:08] Manav Kaur can't always say
[00:37:10] that he wants money
[00:37:12] so I had an honest conversation with Manav
[00:37:14] and my association with Manav
[00:37:16] has been of 12-15 years
[00:37:18] so it is a very tight bond
[00:37:20] so I told him
[00:37:22] that we want to do more shows
[00:37:24] and he is very ashamed
[00:37:26] asking for money from you all the time
[00:37:28] so how to go about it
[00:37:30] so in this case
[00:37:32] Manav was the reason
[00:37:34] why we sustained
[00:37:36] because he said that your play is good
[00:37:38] your play talks well
[00:37:40] you are working hard with sincerity
[00:37:42] why am I earning money from movies
[00:37:44] so that I can give it in theater
[00:37:46] so you do a lot of shows
[00:37:48] I will give you money
[00:37:50] if you have profit
[00:37:52] pay the artist
[00:37:54] if you have loss I will bear it
[00:37:56] you don't need to repay me
[00:37:58] so we did 10 more shows there
[00:38:00] in that period
[00:38:02] and in those 10 shows
[00:38:04] people started coming
[00:38:06] then we started getting Prithvi theater
[00:38:08] then we started getting NCPA
[00:38:10] and money started coming from there
[00:38:12] so eventually we repaid Manav Kaur also
[00:38:14] we paid our artist also
[00:38:16] so this is my
[00:38:18] small personal example
[00:38:20] if I was doing Jo Duba Sopar conveniently
[00:38:22] then I would have stopped it
[00:38:24] that I want to be an actor
[00:38:26] do filmy work
[00:38:28] but for me it is about living and dying
[00:38:30] so that's why I do it that way
[00:38:32] so that somehow
[00:38:34] the universal powers
[00:38:36] support you and say that you are working so hard
[00:38:38] so let's push you a little more
[00:38:50] no problem, take your time
[00:39:20] so I said okay I will come
[00:39:22] so I went there
[00:39:24] and we worked on 3 Kabbali
[00:39:26] Dama Dama, Mast Kalandar
[00:39:28] Chhab Tilak and
[00:39:30] Sochtaan Hoon Ki Wo Kitne Masoom The
[00:39:32] we worked on these 3 Kabbali
[00:39:34] and 3 people
[00:39:36] I used to sing on Mohit Harmonium
[00:39:38] and in our play
[00:39:40] a Sardar Ji Ratanjeev Singh used to play the Dholak
[00:39:42] all three of us used to sing Kabbali in that play
[00:39:44] so we started enjoying it
[00:39:46] we started jamming
[00:39:48] and Kabbali music started to look interesting
[00:39:50] then there was an open mic
[00:39:52] in which we were called
[00:39:54] to sing Kabbali in the open mic
[00:39:56] so I said I know 3-4 forms
[00:39:58] I sing Heer, Baul
[00:40:00] Bhatiali, Bengali
[00:40:02] I have also learned some Persian music
[00:40:04] from YouTube
[00:40:06] so I said I will sing
[00:40:08] 4-5 forms
[00:40:10] so first I sang Heer, then Bhatiali
[00:40:12] then Baul, then
[00:40:14] a folk song from UP
[00:40:16] when it came to Kabbali
[00:40:18] I used to introduce it
[00:40:20] before every performance
[00:40:22] or art form
[00:40:24] so I said Kabbali music
[00:40:26] is also
[00:40:28] a kind of folk music
[00:40:30] and now we will sing it
[00:40:32] because we don't know anything about Kabbali
[00:40:34] so what do we say?
[00:40:36] so folk music came out, we said it
[00:40:38] we sang, people were clapping
[00:40:40] in the middle a young boy came
[00:40:42] to us
[00:40:44] and he said sir do you know what
[00:40:46] Saare Gama Paadhanisa is?
[00:40:49] I said no, I don't know
[00:40:51] I thought someone was pulling me
[00:40:53] so I said I don't know
[00:40:55] so he said sir
[00:40:57] when you don't know anything
[00:40:59] don't talk about it, just stay quiet
[00:41:01] because
[00:41:03] this Kabbali music is not folk music
[00:41:05] it is Sufi music, it is something else
[00:41:07] and he said
[00:41:09] that boy left
[00:41:11] that boy left and Mohit was
[00:41:13] standing in the middle
[00:41:15] so I asked Mohit
[00:41:17] that this music
[00:41:19] which we enjoy so much
[00:41:21] and in fact Sufi music was also one of the reasons
[00:41:23] why I started taking music seriously
[00:41:25] because when
[00:41:27] Kailash Khair came to Bollywood
[00:41:29] and Javed Ali came
[00:41:31] and we listened to Nusrat Fatehli Khan
[00:41:33] 's Qawwaliyah
[00:41:35] then we listened to Rahat Fatehli Khan's
[00:41:37] mind playing in the Paap film
[00:41:39] then I thought this is my type
[00:41:41] this is my music, I have to prepare
[00:41:43] this music
[00:41:45] so I thought the thing which
[00:41:47] inherently attracts me
[00:41:49] from inside
[00:41:51] I should know what it is
[00:41:53] so the beginning of Jodhu Vazupar
[00:41:55] started that night when Mohit and I
[00:41:57] went home
[00:41:59] we opened the laptop, we sat together
[00:42:01] and typed on Google
[00:42:03] what is Sufi music?
[00:42:06] so we were absolutely
[00:42:08] we had no idea
[00:42:10] as to what it is
[00:42:12] no idea whatsoever
[00:42:14] as to what it is
[00:42:16] just like Amir Khusro's name
[00:42:18] or Nizamuddin Dargah
[00:42:20] so we started from zero
[00:42:22] and then
[00:42:24] our desire
[00:42:26] was so true
[00:42:28] to know about this
[00:42:30] that from one to two, three to four
[00:42:32] you start on Google
[00:42:34] start researching on Wikipedia
[00:42:36] that will give you 150 more ways
[00:42:38] to read this and that
[00:42:40] so then I read Elif Shafak's book
[00:42:42] 40 Rules of Love
[00:42:44] after that
[00:42:46] I got some references from there
[00:42:48] then I told Manav that we are researching on this subject
[00:42:50] so Manav introduced us to a Sufi scholar
[00:42:52] so we got something else from him
[00:42:54] then Mohit and I
[00:42:56] when we were researching for three to four months
[00:42:58] a friend randomly called
[00:43:00] that he is going to learn Urdu
[00:43:02] will you go to learn Urdu?
[00:43:04] so I said yes, I will go
[00:43:06] that girl left four classes
[00:43:08] I learned Urdu for three months
[00:43:10] and today I know how to write and read Urdu
[00:43:12] through that
[00:43:14] you are talking about Amir Khusro
[00:43:16] you should know Urdu
[00:43:18] so I learned Urdu
[00:43:20] then I started reading Quran
[00:43:22] Bible, because I didn't want to make something
[00:43:24] just because
[00:43:26] the more I got to know about Sufism
[00:43:28] the more I was attracted
[00:43:30] to find out more
[00:43:32] then came a point
[00:43:34] after that, after a lot of research
[00:43:36] I had this huge
[00:43:38] urge
[00:43:40] to travel to Delhi
[00:43:42] and see the practicing Qawwal
[00:43:44] travel to Ajmer and see those people
[00:43:46] those places about which it is written in books
[00:43:48] we never go there before that
[00:43:50] then Mohit and I
[00:43:52] travelled, we went to Ajmer
[00:43:54] went to Delhi, there we met people
[00:43:56] met scholars, met Qawwal
[00:43:58] sat with them and ate food
[00:44:00] I actually
[00:44:02] met them from those times
[00:44:04] who you might think they are clerks
[00:44:06] or they might be driving auto
[00:44:08] such people
[00:44:10] because in Sufism
[00:44:12] people keep themselves hidden
[00:44:14] they don't show themselves
[00:44:16] we think Sufis
[00:44:18] used to be like that
[00:44:20] back in the day, today it is not possible
[00:44:22] and I also used to think so
[00:44:24] but when I went to Ajmer and Delhi
[00:44:26] and there is some kind of
[00:44:28] mysticism involved
[00:44:30] because the vision I was seeing
[00:44:32] of the world at that time
[00:44:34] I used to get to know as soon as I saw the right people
[00:44:36] so a person is sitting beside me
[00:44:38] I don't know what I am feeling, I said I want to talk to him
[00:44:40] Mohit says why should I talk to him
[00:44:42] he is sitting beside me, with whom should I talk
[00:44:44] I said no I want to talk to him
[00:44:46] I went to him with folded hands
[00:44:48] talked to him and saw that he is a sea of knowledge
[00:44:50] he has
[00:44:52] all the knowledge of the world
[00:44:54] he is a man who has reached
[00:44:56] such a spiritual height
[00:44:58] but you can't tell by looking
[00:45:00] so then we
[00:45:02] took two steps towards Khusro
[00:45:04] and Khusro took four steps towards us
[00:45:06] and said son not this way, go this way
[00:45:08] and by meeting such people
[00:45:10] we researched
[00:45:12] then a very important aspect
[00:45:14] which I definitely want to tell because I want
[00:45:16] those who are listening
[00:45:18] to know about that person
[00:45:20] whom I am going to tell now
[00:45:22] when I researched
[00:45:24] it was about writing
[00:45:26] I wrote it as if it was satsang
[00:45:28] I heard the knowledge and gave it all away
[00:45:30] all the knowledge
[00:45:32] but then something clicked in me
[00:45:34] and I thought there is some art form called
[00:45:36] Dastangoi
[00:45:38] what is Dastangoi, I have heard it
[00:45:40] so I typed Dastangoi on Google
[00:45:42] and saw Mehmood Farooqi, Danish Hussain
[00:45:44] Darain Shahidi
[00:45:46] all these people perform Dastangoi
[00:45:48] then I felt
[00:45:50] I am a 27-28 year old boy
[00:45:52] Mehmood Farooqi talks about Kabir
[00:45:54] he likes his words
[00:45:56] because he has that age
[00:45:58] that wisdom, that maturity
[00:46:00] to present that
[00:46:02] now what will a 27 year old boy talk about Kabir
[00:46:04] people will say how do you know Kabir
[00:46:06] and then I found out there was this Dastangoi
[00:46:08] named Ankit Chaddha
[00:46:10] who passed away at an age of 31
[00:46:12] he passed away in 2018
[00:46:14] and what I am telling now
[00:46:16] is from 2019
[00:46:18] and I remembered that yes
[00:46:20] last year I read in the newspaper
[00:46:22] that he was away in an accident
[00:46:24] I thought who is this Ankit Chaddha
[00:46:26] let me see
[00:46:28] then I went on YouTube and I saw all of Ankit Chaddha's work
[00:46:30] and I realized that at an age
[00:46:32] of 27, 28, 29, 30
[00:46:34] he is speaking
[00:46:36] so sincerely about
[00:46:38] such profound
[00:46:40] and grave topics
[00:46:42] and the way he is performing
[00:46:44] he has made this art form very accessible to a layman
[00:46:46] he is not speaking
[00:46:48] from a higher plane
[00:46:50] so I will speak in such a way that you understand
[00:46:52] and you don't understand
[00:46:54] what he is doing is speaking in such a way
[00:46:56] that the society will understand
[00:46:58] and if it doesn't understand then it is explaining
[00:47:00] so I understood that
[00:47:02] it doesn't matter how old you are
[00:47:04] what matters is what kind of honesty
[00:47:06] and sincerity you are bringing to your story
[00:47:08] so for a week or so
[00:47:10] I consumed all the
[00:47:12] work that Ankit Chaddha had done which was on YouTube
[00:47:16] and I ordered the books that Ankit
[00:47:18] had written or the books that Ankit had written
[00:47:20] so about the story
[00:47:22] I spent 15-20 days
[00:47:24] on the
[00:47:26] thing of drinking alcohol
[00:47:28] and after that I opened my laptop and thought
[00:47:30] if Ankit Chaddha had to write something then how would he have written
[00:47:32] and then I
[00:47:34] started writing and I wrote
[00:47:36] 45-50% of the play
[00:47:38] Jodhubal Supar in one go just by imagining
[00:47:40] that if Ankit Chaddha had to say it then how would he have written
[00:47:42] so even though
[00:47:44] Ankit is not alive and even though he was
[00:47:46] not alive at that time
[00:47:48] he is my Guru and in my script
[00:47:50] Jodhubal Supar's script
[00:47:52] I have dedicated it to Ankit on the first page
[00:47:54] because if Ankit
[00:47:56] had not done the work that he had done while he was alive
[00:47:58] then what we are doing today
[00:48:00] we don't get to do that
[00:48:18] I am a writer
[00:48:20] and I always feel
[00:48:22] so full of gratitude
[00:48:24] towards the universe that
[00:48:26] it chose me to say this story I think
[00:48:28] this is the first play I have written
[00:48:30] the first thing I have written
[00:48:32] and I could never think
[00:48:34] that I am not a writer
[00:48:36] but the first thing I wrote was written like this
[00:48:38] so I think that Khusro chose me
[00:48:40] to tell this story
[00:48:42] otherwise I don't have any background
[00:48:44] in play writing or in the story
[00:48:46] and response
[00:48:48] is very strong
[00:48:50] what can I say
[00:48:52] you think that after the show
[00:48:54] many times
[00:48:56] old people come to me
[00:48:58] and ask if they want to touch their feet
[00:49:00] you are Nizamuddin Auliya for me
[00:49:02] so now
[00:49:04] how do I interpret this
[00:49:06] how do I respond to it
[00:49:08] I am only filled with gratitude
[00:49:10] my soul is filled with gratitude
[00:49:12] that through me
[00:49:14] why is there so much movement in the world
[00:49:16] is there anyone who feels
[00:49:18] that you know
[00:49:20] small kids come
[00:49:22] big people come
[00:49:24] once I am reminded of an incident
[00:49:26] I will tell you that
[00:49:28] we were performing in Hyderabad
[00:49:30] in Hyderabad Literature Festival
[00:49:32] and our performance was in open AM
[00:49:34] where our performance was there was a hotel
[00:49:36] so when we performed
[00:49:38] one person came to meet us
[00:49:40] wearing white kurta pajamas
[00:49:42] and cap
[00:49:44] bearded old man
[00:49:46] so
[00:49:48] after seeing him we understood that
[00:49:50] he is a 5 time namazi
[00:49:52] and he is a person who follows his religion very strongly
[00:49:54] he came and while crying
[00:49:56] he hugged us and said
[00:49:58] you know
[00:50:00] in my childhood I learnt all this from my father
[00:50:02] I learnt the words of rich people
[00:50:04] my father knew Farsi
[00:50:06] and he
[00:50:08] came from Bihar
[00:50:10] so he said I was sitting in my hotel
[00:50:12] performing namaz
[00:50:14] and I heard your voice
[00:50:16] man tu shudam tu man shudam
[00:50:18] takasinu koi adbad azim
[00:50:20] man digram tu digram
[00:50:22] I said who are these people
[00:50:24] who are singing this
[00:50:26] who are these kids who are singing this
[00:50:28] and I couldn't complete namaz
[00:50:30] for the first time in my life
[00:50:32] I left namaz half and ran away
[00:50:34] to see that this is my namaz
[00:50:36] and he came to us
[00:50:38] and for 20-25 minutes his tears are flowing
[00:50:40] from his eyes
[00:50:42] and he is saying that I am proud of my India
[00:50:44] that in our India
[00:50:46] there are such kids
[00:50:48] you people are the ones who will take the torch
[00:50:50] we are all one
[00:50:52] we all know this but we are forgetting
[00:50:54] this hatred in the world
[00:50:56] for love like yours
[00:50:58] so these things, whatever they were doing
[00:51:00] when I saw them my tears were falling
[00:51:02] that what have I done in life
[00:51:04] that I am worthy to feel this
[00:51:06] what have I done to deserve this
[00:51:08] it's an absolute pleasure
[00:51:10] to be able to cry with somebody
[00:51:12] like this
[00:51:14] to be able to share those
[00:51:16] absolute raw emotions with somebody
[00:51:18] where people are actually moved
[00:51:20] and second thing is
[00:51:22] how good or bad is art, its merit is different
[00:51:24] but when a person
[00:51:26] moves from inside
[00:51:28] then that
[00:51:30] absolute
[00:51:32] what do you call it
[00:51:34] art's success
[00:51:36] is that
[00:51:38] the other person moves
[00:51:40] and with us the response has been
[00:51:42] that not a single
[00:51:44] person has gone unmoved
[00:51:46] I feel
[00:51:48] they are so moved from inside
[00:51:50] and I don't know what I have done
[00:51:52] to deserve this
[00:51:54] it's all gratitude to Nizamuddin Auliya
[00:51:56] and Ameer Khosrow and Ankit Chaddha
[00:51:58] that I could through their work
[00:52:00] and their history I could create something like this
[00:52:02] and I was able to live
[00:52:04] what I am living, I am living a dream life
[00:52:06] for an actor, for a performer
[00:52:08] and I can vouch that
[00:52:10] the performance itself is extremely moving
[00:52:12] and touches you deeply
[00:52:14] but before we move on the quatrain
[00:52:16] that you recited
[00:52:18] part in part, I just wanted to tell listeners
[00:52:20] that that is also Khosrow
[00:52:22] and let me see if I can get it right
[00:52:24] I am not a fluent Urdu speaker at all
[00:52:26] and I have not studied it
[00:52:28] but I am deeply interested in poetry
[00:52:30] I am not a fluent Persian
[00:52:32] but I think it goes something like this
[00:52:34] Man tu sudam tu man sudi, man tun sudam tu jaan sudi
[00:52:36] Taqas nagoyat baad azim
[00:52:38] Man digaram tu digari
[00:52:40] I am just looking up the
[00:52:42] translation
[00:52:44] as we speak
[00:52:46] and what I found is it means this
[00:52:48] I have become you and you me
[00:52:50] I am the body, you the soul
[00:52:52] so that no one can say you are after
[00:52:54] that you are someone and I someone else
[00:52:56] yeah absolutely
[00:52:58] I will say that maybe this is not even Persian
[00:53:00] as much as my research says
[00:53:04] and again I will say I am not a scholar
[00:53:06] I am not an authority but
[00:53:08] this is the language that Amir Khosrow invented
[00:53:12] Persian and Urdu
[00:53:14] and the colloquial language of India
[00:53:16] around Delhi and Awadh
[00:53:18] after listening to that language
[00:53:20] after listening to Sanskrit
[00:53:22] like you said man tu sudam
[00:53:24] now sudam is coming right?
[00:53:26] It is something taken from the Sanskrit
[00:53:28] Tum Aham Gachham
[00:53:30] so man tu sudam tu man sudi
[00:53:34] man me wale man se liya hua hai
[00:53:36] man tan sudam
[00:53:38] now tan toh ikdum Hindi word hai
[00:53:40] mera tan
[00:53:42] man tan sudam tu jaan sudi
[00:53:44] so this is a mixture
[00:53:46] in fact
[00:53:48] the first dictionary of the world
[00:53:50] is said to be made by Amir Khosrow
[00:53:52] whose name was Khaliq Bari
[00:53:54] and that dictionary is a saying
[00:53:56] that when he came back from printing
[00:53:58] for the first time
[00:54:00] and was being taken to the shops
[00:54:02] by bringing him on bullock cards
[00:54:04] people took him by bullock cards
[00:54:06] which made him famous
[00:54:08] so Amir Khosrow
[00:54:10] made a language
[00:54:12] which is
[00:54:14] the language that
[00:54:16] was generated by
[00:54:18] Amir Khosrow
[00:54:20] from the Urdu language
[00:54:22] as far as I know
[00:54:24] it was generated by him
[00:54:26] while he was making the language of Bhaatshiyat
[00:54:28] the language which is in India
[00:54:30] the language related to Hindvi
[00:54:34] so yes
[00:54:36] let's move forward
[00:54:38] so before I come back to Qawwali
[00:54:40] I want to know you mentioned that Dastangoi
[00:54:42] is your true love
[00:54:44] what do you love about Dastangoi?
[00:54:46] see today
[00:54:48] before doing Jodhubas Upar
[00:54:50] I was an actor
[00:54:52] and what is an actor?
[00:54:54] it is a tool in someone else's story
[00:54:56] that someone else
[00:54:58] wants to say something
[00:55:00] and you are a part of that story
[00:55:02] so what is your
[00:55:04] statement to the world?
[00:55:06] that is very difficult
[00:55:08] as an actor to perform
[00:55:10] although you will find actors who can still
[00:55:12] perform that in their acting
[00:55:14] you know, what is their empathy
[00:55:16] their pathos
[00:55:18] their worldview
[00:55:20] they can show their performance
[00:55:22] they are very pinnacle of acting
[00:55:24] we are small actors
[00:55:26] but when I did this
[00:55:28] the first time I understood
[00:55:30] that I have something in me
[00:55:32] that can create
[00:55:34] that can have a statement
[00:55:36] to the world of my own
[00:55:38] what is my statement to the world?
[00:55:40] am I a mere actor who is acting
[00:55:42] in ads and films and earning money
[00:55:44] and going to the gym
[00:55:46] and buying swanky cars
[00:55:48] and houses
[00:55:50] living the life of fame
[00:55:52] and all that
[00:55:54] if I get that
[00:55:56] that will not be my absolute triumph
[00:55:58] I will not feel
[00:56:00] that I have done something in life
[00:56:02] because I feel
[00:56:04] I am a world human
[00:56:06] I would like to be like that
[00:56:08] to have a worldview about things
[00:56:10] I feel that
[00:56:12] if I am posting a selfie on Instagram
[00:56:14] then that selfie
[00:56:16] absolutely isolated
[00:56:18] from Israel and Gaza war
[00:56:20] cannot happen
[00:56:22] if I can't see the pain of
[00:56:24] the war between Israel and Gaza
[00:56:26] then that selfie is not worth it
[00:56:28] and those who post such selfies
[00:56:30] in isolation
[00:56:32] feeling shooting today
[00:56:34] nice, feeling good
[00:56:36] I feel that they don't have
[00:56:38] any feeling of the pain of the world
[00:56:40] how can they be so isolated
[00:56:42] and if they are
[00:56:44] then I don't see them as artists
[00:56:46] they can be actors
[00:56:48] not artists
[00:56:50] so I feel that Dastangohi Artform gave me
[00:56:52] the means to understand
[00:56:54] that I have this art form
[00:56:56] through this art form I can say anything
[00:56:58] I can say anything
[00:57:00] from the world
[00:57:02] whether it is about wildlife and conservation
[00:57:04] or about Vincent Van Gogh
[00:57:06] or
[00:57:08] about Baba Sehgal
[00:57:10] let's say
[00:57:12] Baba Sehgal is a hero
[00:57:14] in his life
[00:57:16] in his mind
[00:57:18] I find it very exciting
[00:57:20] what if I go and meet Baba Sehgal
[00:57:22] and work with him for 30 days
[00:57:24] do my research and then come back and make a Dastangohi
[00:57:26] Baba Sehgal doing rap
[00:57:28] back in 90s when rap was
[00:57:30] non-existent in India
[00:57:32] it's a very exciting idea
[00:57:34] and that excites me
[00:57:36] I would like to be in the audience when somebody is doing a Dastangohi on this
[00:57:38] so if I am excited about that
[00:57:40] I would like to create something like that
[00:57:42] so that is why
[00:57:44] I say that my true love
[00:57:46] lies in the work of Dastangohi
[00:57:48] because my other acting
[00:57:50] that I do in web series, films, whatever I do
[00:57:52] I will keep doing
[00:57:54] with which I will earn money in my own place
[00:57:56] but this work is my statement
[00:57:58] to the world
[00:58:00] that what I want to see in this world
[00:58:02] what I want to live in this world
[00:58:04] and what I want to do better
[00:58:06] and Ajitesh which is your favorite Qawwali
[00:58:08] and could I ask you to sing or recite
[00:58:10] a couple of lines from it
[00:58:12] see this is a very difficult question
[00:58:14] my favorite Qawwali
[00:58:16] I can't say which one is it
[00:58:18] but yes these are Qawwals
[00:58:20] which have passed in Covid
[00:58:22] Pakistani Qawal
[00:58:24] Ustad Amir Ali Khan
[00:58:26] whose Qawwalis
[00:58:28] you will find on YouTube
[00:58:30] music channel called The Dream Journey
[00:58:32] The Dream Journey
[00:58:34] Ustad Amir Ali Khan
[00:58:36] he passed the Bain during Covid
[00:58:38] those are the Qawwals
[00:58:40] which I like very much
[00:58:42] because they perform
[00:58:44] the Qawwali in their own way
[00:58:46] they perform Qawwali with innocence
[00:58:48] with prudence
[00:58:50] with prudence
[00:58:52] Qawwali poster boy
[00:58:54] is Nusrat Ali Khan
[00:58:56] Nusrat Ali Khan Saab
[00:58:58] so of course
[00:59:00] I get a lot of credit for Qawwali
[00:59:02] but the Qawwals
[00:59:04] that I would like to name
[00:59:06] Nusrat Fath Ali Khan Saab
[00:59:08] Fareed Ayaz and Abu Muhammad
[00:59:10] then Ustad Amir Ali Khan
[00:59:12] these are the four that I like very much
[00:59:14] I sing
[00:59:16] something in this language
[00:59:18] which is written
[00:59:20] by Ameer Khusro
[00:59:22] I sing a little bit
[00:59:24] it's not in Hindi
[00:59:26] it's in the language that Ameer Khusro invented
[00:59:28] about which we will talk
[01:00:00] I am a hunter of the world
[01:00:02] I am a hunter of the world
[01:00:04] O my beloved
[01:00:06] O my beloved
[01:00:08] O my beloved
[01:00:10] O my beloved
[01:00:12] O my beloved
[01:00:14] O my beloved
[01:00:16] That was beautiful
[01:00:18] Ameer Khusro is saying something very beautiful
[01:00:20] one is in the Raag Darbari
[01:00:22] which is my favorite Raag
[01:00:24] and he says
[01:00:26] Bahal Abam Rasid-e-Janam
[01:00:28] My life has come on my lips
[01:00:30] it has come on my lips
[01:00:32] I mean it is about to come out
[01:00:34] Bahal Abam Rasid-e-Janam
[01:00:36] If you want to see me alive, then come to me
[01:00:38] Pasazan Ke Mal Na Manam
[01:00:40] My mind is not accepting
[01:00:42] Come to me
[01:00:44] Otherwise I will become a prey of death
[01:00:46] Yaar-e-Man Bayaa Bayaa
[01:00:48] Come to me
[01:00:50] Come to me quickly
[01:00:52] This is what he is saying
[01:00:54] Truly outstanding
[01:00:56] So Ajitesh, what comes next for you?
[01:00:58] When I was doing Jodhubasubhaar
[01:01:00] it was very empty
[01:01:02] I had a lot of time
[01:01:04] I was not very good at cinema
[01:01:06] I was not very talented as an actor
[01:01:08] I was not very good at my craft
[01:01:10] at that time
[01:01:12] so I was not very good at it
[01:01:14] so I had a lot of time
[01:01:16] That is why I was able to do research
[01:01:18] by drowning in it
[01:01:20] After that
[01:01:22] I did research on Vincent Van Gogh
[01:01:24] very deeply
[01:01:26] But when I got the opportunity to write
[01:01:28] I got a film
[01:01:30] I have to get money from it
[01:01:32] That is also an important aspect
[01:01:34] I definitely want to do the same in cinema
[01:01:36] So that was left
[01:01:38] Then I did a little research on Jim Corbett
[01:01:40] I did a lot of research on Jim Corbett
[01:01:42] and I was not able to write that
[01:01:44] So now
[01:01:46] that phase is
[01:01:48] When Jim Corbett's books are on my left
[01:01:50] and on my right
[01:01:52] I have the books of Van Gogh
[01:01:54] and now
[01:01:56] I have received a commission project
[01:01:58] that if you are interested
[01:02:00] then you can write a story on Ram
[01:02:02] So I am also
[01:02:04] reading the Ramayana
[01:02:06] of C Raj Gopalachari
[01:02:08] So I have left it
[01:02:10] Let us see
[01:02:12] in which direction my instinct
[01:02:14] says that from these three
[01:02:16] which direction I should go
[01:02:18] This is the story I have written
[01:02:20] I will do something in that time
[01:02:22] I will not leave it
[01:02:24] Apart from this
[01:02:26] I have finished a web series
[01:02:28] for Jio Cinema
[01:02:30] which I have finished
[01:02:32] shooting for 45 days
[01:02:34] For the first time as a lead
[01:02:36] I am performing in it
[01:02:38] I am a friend of the hero
[01:02:40] or a pivotal character
[01:02:42] But this is the first time
[01:02:44] when I have performed the main character
[01:02:46] So that I am very excited about
[01:02:48] I have got the skills
[01:02:50] little by little
[01:02:52] how to perform a main character
[01:02:54] with its nuances
[01:02:56] and subtleties
[01:02:58] And I tried
[01:03:00] I have made the quirks of that character
[01:03:02] I have taken a lot of risk
[01:03:04] I thought this is the chance
[01:03:06] so I don't have to be afraid
[01:03:08] or it will fail
[01:03:10] but if it clicked, it will turn out to be a very good character
[01:03:12] So I have done that
[01:03:14] There are many shows
[01:03:16] I listen to music in my spare time
[01:03:18] I practice, read books
[01:03:20] This is the strange thing
[01:03:46] Because this is what keeps me alive
[01:03:48] This is absolutely what keeps me alive
[01:03:50] I mean I haven't told this to you
[01:03:52] but I was selected for the National Defense Academy
[01:03:54] as a fighter pilot
[01:03:56] back in 2007
[01:03:58] And I went to the National Defense Academy
[01:04:00] and over there
[01:04:02] when I was 18 years old
[01:04:04] I was there for 10 days in the National Defense Academy
[01:04:06] and that day
[01:04:08] I became sure in those 10 days
[01:04:10] that this is not what I want to do
[01:04:12] If I have to live a life
[01:04:14] and I have been given one life
[01:04:16] I am not going to waste it doing something that I don't love
[01:04:18] What I love, I love music
[01:04:20] I love history, I love literature
[01:04:22] I love culture, I love arts
[01:04:24] I love all this
[01:04:26] So I do not have any other option
[01:04:28] but to do this
[01:04:30] It's an obsessive-compulsory disorder
[01:04:32] or I would say it is an
[01:04:34] obsessive-compulsory order for me to do this
[01:04:38] Ajitesh, if it's possible
[01:04:40] to unify an increasingly
[01:04:42] divided society through something as accessible
[01:04:44] as the arts, we should focus on them
[01:04:46] and the sooner we find a reason to
[01:04:48] reunite the better. Thanks so much
[01:04:50] for coming on the show
[01:04:52] Thank you so much. It has been an absolute
[01:04:54] pleasure to talk to you
[01:04:56] I hope I answered your questions in brevity
[01:04:58] I apologize to my listeners if they got too long
[01:05:02] Also I would like to tell you
[01:05:04] that we have an Instagram page
[01:05:06] of this play which we have talked about
[01:05:08] in order to keep things in context
[01:05:10] It's called Jodhuba Sopar Naatak
[01:05:12] and its Instagram page is
[01:05:14] at the rate Jodhuba
[01:05:16] at the rate J-O-D-O-O-B-A
[01:05:18] So if you want to see
[01:05:20] if it's coming to your city or not
[01:05:22] you will get all the updates there
[01:05:24] And thank you so much
[01:05:26] Ashraf for talking to me
[01:05:28] I had a lot of fun
[01:05:40] Thanks for watching