Dard e dilli; Delhi’s climate dilemma: now or never | Part 4

[00:00:15] Welcome to 4C Radio. We are broadcasting from the central campus of Christ University, Bengaluru. 4C Radio is brought to you by the Department of Media Studies, Christ University. For all those who are looking for a platform that focuses on communities, commons, climate and communication, this is the place to be. What's more, this station is run by a diverse community of students and dedicated faculty members.

[00:00:41] Tune in to experience hard-hitting interviews, fact checks and myth-busting, on-round stories, campus news and more. This is the final episode in the four-part series that 4C Radio is bringing out in collaboration with SEEDS, Sustainable Environment and Ecological Development Society.

[00:01:07] An organization based in Delhi that has been working for over 30 years towards protecting lives and livelihoods in the wake of climate change, natural hazards and human-made disasters. In this four-part series, Prachi Pingli traveled to different pockets of New Delhi, capital of our nation and spoke to people living in difficult conditions battling extreme heat, floods and loss of livelihood due to worsening climate change.

[00:01:33] In this final episode, Prachi Pingli is in conversation with Anshu Sharma, director of SEEDS to explore some of the issues raised in these episodes and discuss possible policy solutions. Prachi Pingli is in conversation with Anshu Sharma, director of the 4C Radio. Good morning, Anshu. It's nice to talk to you after a very, very long time. Welcome to 4C Radio show and episode.

[00:02:03] This time we are basically looking at the fourth and the final episode of this series which we are collaborating with SEEDS. It's about climate change, it's about Delhi and it's about summer and it's about floods. So could you just reflect on what we have really been through in the past few months while we were trying to make these programs?

[00:02:26] We have met lots of people, we have read up a lot and we know what the problems are but I just wanted you to reflect on what we have seen so far. Hi Prachi, great pleasure being on this show with you and thanks for, you know, having these conversations with us and with the people of Delhi. Delhi, it's such a wide-ranging subject and therefore a wide-ranging set of thoughts but Delhi is, as we all know, a really historic city.

[00:02:55] And so when one thinks about Delhi and since I do work with maps and cities, I don't know which Delhi to think of immediately. And to be honest, while we see so many problems around us and that's how we are having this conversation. But what comes to mind is the beautiful images of Delhi, you know, central Delhi with its wide avenues, with its giant trees, which is shaded in the summers.

[00:03:20] I remember my father used to have a scooter and, you know, sometimes we would go in the summers or he would pick me from school. And when we crossed those roads, Atbar Road and Shah Jahan Road, even in the peak of summers, one could feel droplets on your face, you know, not just a oolay breeze but you could feel droplets and you could hear the birds up there. And it was so beautiful and there were those jamun cellars sitting under that. So for me, images of Delhi are somewhere there. I was born and brought up in Delhi.

[00:03:49] And of course, I can't think of Delhi and not think of the Yamuna. So, you know, when now we have conversations around heat and flood, which are all in slices, it's just one single green and blue memory. And me as a child, so probably a lot of children that I think of when I think of Delhi. So it's historic, it's beautiful, it's green. And if we are losing that at the edges, we really need to do something about it, Raji.

[00:04:16] Right. I mean, I was just thinking when you were talking about it, how really wonderful it must have been. And I lived in Delhi more than 20 years ago. And even then, it had some of this, I think. Like, I remember the onset of winter was perhaps the best time. And I don't know when it started to really become as difficult and challenging as it is today.

[00:04:37] What I wanted to ask was, from your subject expertise point of view, if you could tell us, what can we expect now in the next 5, 10, 15 years? Okay. So I'm an incurable optimist. So I think it's going to get much better. Oh my God. And I think it'll get better because we're talking about it. And there are people talking about it. And there are, you know, youngsters talking about it.

[00:05:02] And I think one of the things we need to resolve is that all of us often think of this as something that has to be solved from the subject matter point of view. And therefore, as you do call me a subject specialist, I think we need more of a mobilization than the specialists. It is the specialists who've lost control with all respect and apologies. But, you know, this has to be taken up by the people.

[00:05:31] It has to be taken up in a way our governance system has been designed very profoundly, but not in the hands of the government alone. You can't solve these things just by rules and regulations. And I think that's why it's important to look at the city as a large, beautiful picture that we want to create, but then keep zooming in, keep zooming in. Come down to the district levels.

[00:05:58] There are various districts with very different characteristics. And by the way, you know, you were talking about how beautiful it must have been. But there are parts of Delhi which are still really, really beautiful. You know, there's a part of the river which is amazing to walk along. There is a part of the forest which is beautiful. The ridge is beautiful. So if we go down, and for me, the hope lies in where, you know, there was something in the 90s called, there was an amendment to the constitution. And these were called the 73rd and 74th Amendment.

[00:06:28] The 74th talked about how more powers be given to the urban local bodies. You know, 73rd was panchayat, right? So in our case, you know, municipalities and the wards and the councillors and then the mohullas, we don't remember when we talk about urban planning. But that's where the real power should lie. And our constitution makes a provision for that.

[00:06:55] And perhaps that's where the real solutions actually are. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. So if we, right now, what we do is there's a problem. Let's go and meet the left-hand governor and the chief minister and the secretary environment. I would say, you know, who's going and talking to the, at the sub-ward level. So in fact, there was a time in Delhi when there was a movement called the Bhagidari Movement. It was a nice initiative of the government, which was onboarding all the RWAs, right?

[00:07:25] But if we look at it like a little pyramid, then if you get the mohullas samitis in the RWAs, and then you convene them at the level of a municipal ward. Because the ward has a councillor who is your voice. Every ward has schools. Every ward has, you know, different kinds of clubs and people where movements can happen.

[00:07:48] Now, I'll also like to add that while, you know, we are talking about heat and air pollution and flooding, so, you know, we take a average figure of many things for the city. So if we talk about heat, we say, oh, the temperature of Delhi is 47.

[00:08:37] Right? So, there is a variation of about 15 degrees, a little more or a little less, on any given day.

[00:09:05] And that is why the board is important. Absolutely. And the same translates into, again, you don't come to Delhi very often now, but I'm sure you read in the papers how we suffocate during the October-November pollution. So, you would read figures. Delhi's AQI is at 450 or something. Our PM 2.5 is running at 500.

[00:09:30] Now, if you open and there are various maps, there are government maps now that give you readings from various air quality monitoring stations of Delhi. Yes. And there's so many days you would open and you would say Delhi's at 350. I think I have a few screenshots of those. Delhi's at 350, you know, PM 2.5. And there is one station up north which is running at 550.

[00:09:55] And there is one station down there in South Delhi which is running at 280, right? There is, it's not a variation of like 10-20%. It is a variation of 100%. Right. Which means, it means, so it means two things for us. One is, it means it's, while there is a part of it which is a much larger North India airshed issue and it is coming from outside and various groups can be blamed for it.

[00:10:22] But there is a huge part of the air pollution which is local. Local, yes. And it varies from ward to ward. There is a ward which is way better than another ward. So, there's something that's happening in a ward which is not okay. And there's something happening in a ward which is much better. So, you know, it would be much easier to learn. Yeah. It would also then have a direct impact on the people who live in these wards, right? Absolutely.

[00:10:50] And would it be right to say that there would be more vulnerable sections of populations who are kind of facing it or bearing the brunt of it? And perhaps will be impacted much more in their health. Absolutely. Like, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, that's a great, that's a great question. And you, I think, and I'm just thinking we should slice it in two different ways. One is you could slice it geographically.

[00:11:17] There is a part of Delhi which is better off than another part. Yeah. Because either it was planned better or it's maintained better or it has different kinds of features and densities and, you know, a natural environment. There's another way to slice it which is around the ability and affordability of the people, right? So even within those geographies, of course, a worse off word is worse off per se.

[00:11:42] But there was a study in Bombay by WRI and SEEDS has and other organizations have done various studies in Delhi, which tell us that a slum in any given place is about six to seven degrees hotter than its surrounding neighborhoods. Right? So we talk about urban heat island that cities are hotter than the countryside. But within cities, there are certain pockets which are significantly hotter because they don't have green areas. They don't have trees.

[00:12:11] They have a lot of concrete or tin or whatever. So, yes, there are people, there are winners and losers in this at every level at the city and at the world. And probably that's where we should start looking at solutions, not in a top-down way, but how do, you know, what else happens within the city which can help? You know, in fact, when we were to meet the people, I also found another very interesting thing.

[00:12:36] Like, especially the migrant population or those who have kind of been here and they work really hard for very little money. They seem to have normalized this, you know. I mean, when we were talking about it, for the first 15-20 minutes, they were not even acknowledging it that they are suffering because of this. And, you know, they were like, yes, it's a lot of pain. We don't go to work.

[00:13:04] But the problem that they're talking about is that income has reduced or school has not gone to school or whatever. But then to trace it back to why are you falling sick? Why are you not able to go to work? Why can you only work half a day and not full day? So, that last point takes a lot of time to come to the last point. So, I feel that they themselves seem to have accepted and normalized. They're kind of going on and on, you know.

[00:13:33] When we spoke to people about the floods who are living in the Yamuna bed, right? So, they were like, I mean, they were just like, okay. Yeah. They're not okay with it. But what I'm trying to say is, it seems to have become part of their life. You know, like it has become sort of like a given, like maybe slightly fatalistic.

[00:14:01] They think it is, this is how things are. And how does one really sort of approach that or change that? Or, you know, I mean, you said we should have mobilization. We should have more people asking for things. And, you know, how does one then do it when it has almost become normal? Like, you know, I mean, it has, it's part of the deal sort of a thing. I don't know the exact answer. But I think we need to probably look at a bit more of their perspective.

[00:14:59] So, you know, again, so I was going at this. As you said, you know, in quotes, experts. So, I said, no, no, you don't understand. We are talking about disaster. They said, no, sir, you don't understand. If we go to school, why are we here? We are staying here. Right. So, their economic needs are actually way higher than their needs to be, you know, facing this once a year flood. And they've learned how to do this. They're still desperate to earn better, to do better for their children.

[00:15:28] So, prioritization, you know, these things are very changes when we look from our eyes and we look from someone else's eyes. And you're right, it is fatalistic. And it's not okay. It is getting normalized, which is certainly not okay. You know, sometimes it's very difficult because I cross the river. We cross the river. We cross the river. We see you down. We see you in the river. We see you in the river.

[00:15:55] And the river is itself a story. Another piece. When we talk about it, in the past year, there were a lot of news articles. You know, the long term of 25 kilometers where the river crosses the city. It has about 22 bridges. And some are under construction. And they block. So, the time comes out. And we adjust with it.

[00:16:24] But the fact is, the river, which was once the lifeline of the city, now is in sort of the city's backyard. And although I have a great hope that in 2017, the Yamuna and Ganga were recognized as living entities. Yes. Legally. And I thought that now we should tell our children. And the people who live here, the river, the river, the river, the river, the river, the river, the river, the river. And I also thought that we should do it.

[00:16:53] So, what we thought is that the air pollution control board will be released.

[00:17:28] And flooding will be released. nahi hai you know right or usko we'll have to like we'll have to keep sort of improvising it also right based on what is the what the ground situation is what the changing climate situation is and all of that so i think it can't be like written in stone ki ye karna hai or ye nahi karna hai keep adapting i think that's a great place to bring this to you know and i think my

[00:17:55] concluding thoughts also become that doh chiz hai karna hai hai ek toh uske unit ko chhota karte jayain kiyonke joh bilkul hyper local jis se hum bolte na ek mohole mein ek gali mein ek pariwar ka joh action hooga woh bada important hai uske liye mein jagay banane hooghi usko woh manita deni hooghi aur dousra aise hi jab hum over time chal raha hai then

[00:18:18] ah kiyonki unki conditions different hai isliye unke liye jana you know and where you come from praachi community radio joh ek ek ek pore region ka radio ek desh ka radio ya ek shiher ka radio kard saktta hai usse kuhin zyadha community radio kardata hai kyunki woh granularity laata hai ishi tarhe agar ham community weather station ki baat kertethe hai schools mein lagate hai toh woh apne environment ko better semajtate hai agar ham community

[00:18:46] newsletters nikalate hai jo kuch jagohen par hota hai toh woh apnei charcha karte hai apne issues mein jate hai because one size will not fit all when it comes to heat and floods and air pollution and any other problems of this nature right right i know we wanted to talk about delhi but one last question i wanted to ask you about taking it out of delhi i mean

[00:19:09] you know we are seeing um similar uh sort of impact climate impact bolo pollution impact bolo in tire to cities in sometimes even in villages where there are industrial uh production around them uh you know and a lot of these places uh if you see the lists that people bring out like you know um most polluted most heat ye wo alay jo lists me kalte hai us mein lot of smaller cities

[00:19:39] i feel are having equally difficult time uh but they somehow don't remain in the public narrative right hamlo hamisha dilli bombay chennai or maybe kolkata bangalore we talk about all these places but there are many cities who also go through the same could be bhopal could be um surat could be andabad could be like you know chandrapur i remember in maharashtra was once the one of most polluted

[00:20:06] cities it was because of the cement factories you know though it has a very big forest so um so do you have like what do you what do you think will happen because india as a whole or world as a whole if we were to like really extend the argument is not really divided by boundaries right i mean um how do you look at that right you know i know we want to go hyper local uh for let's say places

[00:20:31] where there can be accountability and monitoring but what about other cities and places where we don't even probably know what the issue is or we know what the issue is but we are not really doing much about it no absolutely true and you still named a few of the more prominent cities but joh hindustan ke karib 8000 known urban centers hain jis mein se shayad 90 percent ke humko naam bhi

[00:20:58] nahi malum hain yaad hoon ge or samaj aega you know and urbanization is only increasing right is only increasing going down yeah absolutely absolutely so abhi un may be a new new harmonized method on n but look at how a settlement is becoming dense and behaving as urban so agar hum wo definition lehate hai then i think india is way above 80 percent because many of our villages are as

[00:21:24] as urbanized as urban centers right in terms of these problems too but i think you know so do do do jeez hain praji number one uh hum log jab when we talk about the climate um you know concentration of carbon and temperature rise we have all seen maps which go up to the year 2100 humko wo red line keeps going up if you think about our plans that we are making we make 20 year

[00:21:49] plans for cities we have a vision 2047 2050 tak soch lehenge us ke aage to humne socha nahi hain right so so for those of us who are in the driving seat on all of these matters we are thinking of our 20 year future but we have kids who will be walking this earth probably will be in their 80s and fairly healthy in the year 2100 and we have no plan no vision for them toh mein shuru wahaan se kar ra hain

[00:22:16] war mein bachon se kar ra hain kyunki agar if we are responsible towards our kids then we should be doing a number of things number like talking about the year 2100 and having a more long-term vision rather than thinking about the next term of office of the politician or the bureaucrat or ourselves you know and our terms the second thing i would do is i would go back uh i did study urban planning and

[00:22:40] us meina ek urban planner huwe hain internationally clarence parry clarence parry said that he defined the neighborhood he said cities are the coming together of neighborhoods and a neighborhood is that space within which an elementary school going child can walk to school in less than 10 minutes without crossing a major road right wow that is the fundamental block of urban planning it is centered

[00:23:09] around children it is centered around the elementary school and that defines a neighborhood and the child's safety defines the neighborhood so let's come back there and instead of saying ke mere gale ko kya hoga or mere favora ko kya hoga let's say what's gonna happen to our children how do we secure their future and the third thing i would say is hand the baton to the children they are very capable and which is why i believe the 1.5 million schools of the country should be the hubs

[00:23:36] for doing this and i don't intend loading the kids with more curriculum but helping them know and giving them the power to monitor to inform to have these discourses to talk to people in the neighborhood and get decisions taken there that true concept of swaraj unless we go there at this level we will just sit with plan after plan and report after report and maybe more episodes but that's where i i think we

[00:24:05] need to get praji is there anything else that you want to mention or talk about which we we've covered some parts we've not covered a lot of other parts but is there anything that you want to leave the audience with like this is what we should go think about when we go away from here there's so much more to talk about i would just say that you know it has to start with exactly where you are right now it has

[00:24:33] to start from your home your family your neighborhood your child's school your municipal ward know your counselor most of us don't even know who our counselors are i i think we need to really uh shift horizons in many ways and the two most important are stretch your time horizon don't think about 2026 summer and winter think about 2100 summer and winter and how your child is going to be surviving that and in terms

[00:25:02] of the of the governance horizon don't look at your chief minister and your secretary look at yourself uh look at your rwa president look at your municipal counselor you know the principal of your neighborhood school and start from there i think till we do that we it really won't work and the moment we start doing that i'm so confident we will see instant change in the air all righty thank you for this conversation

[00:25:28] and we'll talk soon and talk more about other things and we'll keep the conversation going absolutely thank you for triggering this and facilitating this prachi for us bye-bye although this series was about delhi and how climate change and extreme weather affects its people it is known that people of other cities in india and the world face similar difficulties

[00:25:57] as pointed out by anshu it is important for local governing bodies and citizens to engage and take charge of issues that can be handled at local level before it is too late thank you for listening to this podcast as always stay curious and tune in for more

[00:26:22] this episode was hosted and edited by aditya srinivas reportage by prachi pingle and illustrated by varnika singh signature tune was composed by dr anantu please write to us and follow us on x instagram and linkedin