Theatre for Change: The Voice of the Nation | Ft. Sunil Shanbag & Geetanjali Kulkarni

[00:00:04] The most absurd thing to try and do is to censor live performance. There was a time when I would arrive at the censor board with the script and they would say, oh my god, here we go again. That kind of thing. Like I said, you know, I come from a middle class Maharashtrian family. Theatre is our culture and so nothing like that exists. Only one or two percent of Maharashtrian people watch theatre.

[00:00:24] In the indoor performance there were a couple of workers who were very drunk and very angry with the place. They said, what do you do? We know all this. Give us a solution to our problem. It's all very well for you to tell us our story, but what's the future for us? Someone tweeted something and I had to ask my cast. I said that are you all feeling comfortable to go on for the next one because I don't know who's showing up.

[00:00:45] More than censorship, we need education. We have to keep that thing alive. You have to find your own voice and when you find your own voice, you will ask questions. You know, as a director, you have no control over what your actors are going to do. Some guy sitting the censor board is going to control? Give me a break.

[00:01:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of Unscripted with Akarsh Khurana, an Aadyam podcast produced by Eminem Talkies. Let me begin today's episode with a question. What does theatre mean for a nation? Entertainment? Certainly. A brief chance to forget your worries and escape? Surely. But more than that, it's also an important medium of communication and spreading awareness. It can also give voice to dissent, protest, even rebellion.

[00:01:39] Most of the greatest artists believe that you cannot separate art from politics and anyone who is trying to do that probably has political intentions of their own. Today, we deep dive into theatre that matters and tries to make a difference. We have with us two absolutely wonderful guests. Please welcome renowned director and theatre veteran Sunil Shanbagh. The very versatile powerhouse of talent, Gitanjali Kulkarni.

[00:02:09] My beginnings with theatre as a six-year-old in a play that was directed by Sunil called Circus. Circus. Which like a lot of Sunil's work, had something to say, which I didn't understand at that time at all. Because I was six. I forget who the playwright was. Prozek. So, I acted in that and I was a little child playing my own father's son. Running around with a gun is what I remember mostly. And that was how I started off. And it was, that was the peak of my career.

[00:02:39] Because I did a play with Sunil Shanbagh and that year I acted in Waiting for Gaudu. Directed by Benjamin Gilani. Where I shared stage with Nasiruddin Shah and dad. So, that was the, I peaked early. Every year after that was less. So, but, so those were my beginnings. And I'm here now asking you all questions. How privileged you are. Asking you all questions. I have my podcast now. So, that's how, what I've achieved in 40 years. But yeah, how did, what was your first tryst with theatre?

[00:03:09] How did it begin? And earliest? Earliest, you have to go back to school. We must. Yeah. So, and earlier this school is, you know, my mother should often tell me that when I was in, you know, some kindergarten or something. And the annual day function and they decided I would play Krishna. Okay. So, which meant that just wearing a little thing, kind of a, you know, ornamental, glossy dhoti and bare bodied. And I ran off the stage because I was too embarrassed.

[00:03:37] It became a big scandal because what there, the ding ding happens. So, that's really the first experience with theatre. You ran off stage as Krishna. Yeah. And then I was cajoled to go back on stage. Okay. But then actually by, most seriously, it happened in school, Rishi Valley, where there was a lot of, you know, the arts. I mean, there was a lot of music, theatre. We had a full-time theatre teacher. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, every term there was a junior production and there was a senior production. Every term.

[00:04:07] So, when I joined the school, I was new, trying to fit in. And in one of the first few classes, the teacher came and said, you know, who'd like to do a play? And I put my hand up thinking that that could be a good way to belong. And yeah, so that was my first play. Interesting moment because I played a wicked magician. We don't know that dunce cap thing that you have in school plays. Yes. And this black gown and they had erected a kind of a throne for me made of crates.

[00:04:34] And I was supposed to wave my wand, magic wand, and give this kind of, you know, villainous laughter. Ha, ha, ha, ha. And climb up the steps. And the curtain opened and I did ha, ha, ha. Climb the steps. Whole thing collapsed. So, the curtain was very quickly put back on. Everything was rearranged. It opened again and again. I went ha, ha, ha. And 200 people were laughing. And the next day, everybody knew me in school. I said, this is not a bad way to be. No, not at all, you know.

[00:05:03] So, then I was in every play, every, you know, term. And yeah, that's what was the beginning. Actually, because I belong to a middle class Maharashtrian family, so I always watched theatre. And I remember, like Sunil, I remember that I was in kindergarten and I'd seen a circus. And so, I was very much interested. I got interested in this clown, joker, you know, whatever. And I enacted that and the whole school was watching me.

[00:05:33] And I think that was the beginning of me, you know, getting attracted to this form because everybody was watching me. And in my colony, there was like, there used to be, there used to rehearse three act plays, you know, for every Ganpati festival. Oh, okay. In the typical mainstream Marathi commercial theatre. Tuza hai, tuza pashi and all. And I used to, I was six years old in my first grade and I used to watch the rehearsal.

[00:06:02] I used to skip my game time and, you know, I used to sit there for rehearsals and I used to read the script. And so, I was very much attracted. And I used to love going to Shivaji Mandir and Gadkariranga Mandir to watch theatre, to watch Bhakti Barwe, Shri Ram Lagu, Dutta Bhat. And so, it was like that whole atmosphere always attracted me. And you know, these red curtains also remind me of Marathi.

[00:06:33] And then when did you know you wanted to take it seriously? As in like, were you? So, I always had that in my mind. Of course, my parents never agreed to it. Oh, okay. But I still remember I got admission in Ruya College only because it had a tradition of Marathi. Yeah, they have a strong intercollegiate. So, I did that. And during my third year of BA, there was this very young professor, Sudhan Ayer.

[00:07:01] And she told me that you should get into NSD. And that's why I went to NSD. Parents were supportive of NSD? No, no, not at all. Initially. But, you know, NSD used to give scholarship. Okay. It was just mere 600 rupees. But that helped me and I could rebel, you know. See, though you come from a middle class, privileged family, you have to rebel.

[00:07:26] And this is where, you know, system helps you when you get scholarships and all. So, I really am thankful to, you know, these kind of scholarships. And also the idea of public education. Yeah. It's private education. I mean, we have friends here who are sitting here who have paid, you know, 100 times that for the same training. For less, in fact. Yeah. You know, so. Absolutely. Or out DSM. No, I'm making a larger point about public education. Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:56] But what was the procedure to get into NSD at that time? At that time, it was quite easy. So, it was, there was one interview in one of the centers. One of the centers was Mumbai. And then we went to Delhi, those who were shortlisted. And there was a four-day workshop. It was such an interesting affair, you know. Like, we used to do improvisations. All the youngsters from all over India used to come there. We used to cook. We used to do our improvisations, exercises. And you're watched.

[00:08:26] Yeah, and you're watched constantly by the panel. No, I know the process. It's very interesting. Yeah, four days and then. Four days, yeah. And they're watching who's doing what. And then they're culling from that. That's great. Yeah, yeah. Does that still happen? Yeah, it still happens. Okay, wow. And you, Zonil, didn't have formal training like she did? No. Like, your training was under Dudaji. On the job, yeah. Did you ever miss that? Always. Yeah? Maybe not at that time. Okay. Maybe not at that time. But to this day, if I had a second chance, I would go and train.

[00:08:56] Yeah, you think so? Yeah, I think so. I think, no, I think there are some huge advantages about, you know, learning on the job. Huge advantages. Huge advantages. No question about it. But I think somewhere, a kind of an, you know, academic layer, you know, and I'm not saying that everybody who goes to NSD gets that academic layer. Because it's also your interest. It's also what you take from it. It's what you take. But I think somewhere the theory, the history, you know, that kind of structured learning, I miss to this day.

[00:09:25] And which is something that you perhaps had to do on your own then. I do that on my own. And luckily, in the early days, not later, early days, Dubey used to encourage that. Later, he became very dismissive about all that, you know. But early days, he had a pretty decent library in his house. And I would sit there and I would just read, read, read. Because there was no other source of knowledge or information about theatre, especially theatre history. And all these things, you know, the different styles, the different phases in theatre history in Europe, in India. All this came through self-learning. Yeah.

[00:09:53] And I think the immersion that you get in an institution like this, you know, for three years, that's all you're expected to do. Yeah. You have to do nothing else. While I was working 24 hours in Bombay, but a lot of my time had to be spent also making a living, doing other things, you know. So it was, it was in that sense, a little more difficult. But no regrets in that sense. Yeah. Right. What were like key either productions or influences? I'm saying, I suppose Dubeji was a big influence.

[00:10:22] Do you still think that in your work you reflect that? He was. He was. But if you're going into that, I think, I think for me it was just more than Dubej. It was actually the time when I was learning my theatre. Okay. So I started working in around 1974. And between 74 to 83, I was working, 82, I was working with Dubej, right? Almost like nine or 10 years. This was also the time when there was a huge shift happening in theatre of a particular kind.

[00:10:51] The commercial theatre was happening and we used to see that also. But if you talk about a time when you're, what is known as the experimental theatre of that time, those days we use the word experimental very casually. And that has often been challenged. What, what, were you actually doing experimental or were you doing small plays and calling them experimental? Right, you know, so that. But Marathi, it was a standard term for that kind of theatre. But that was a very important moment historically all over the world and also in India where

[00:11:21] people were really groping and searching for things. The question of why you were doing what you were doing was a very major question. You just didn't do a play because you felt like doing a play. So if I ask a theatre director, why have you done this play? And they said, you know, I liked it. And I feel that's not a good enough reason to do a play. You know, it has to mean something more. Now, this is a problem that I have. Okay, but, but this was a time when you were not taken seriously unless your work showed why

[00:11:50] you were doing it. And from this period that you're talking about, of course, the fact that it was a, it was a state of flux in terms of there was a change happening in the, in the theatre as well. But do you remember like people whose work or like productions that really influenced you? Yeah, I think, I think for me, the first production that convinced me that I had to look at the possibility of a life in the theatre was Dubey's Haivadhan for it. Right. You know, the first time I went to see it at Tejpal Auditorium, empty stage, blank stage,

[00:12:18] there must have been one, you know, battered steel folding chair and, you know, not very nice curtains because that theatre is designed for, you know, commercial sets. So they don't need to, there's no upkeep in the theatre, right? And on that stage with three halogen lights, no fancy lighting, these actors created magic. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. In fact, you know, this was a play, this Girish Karnas play. Have you read it before you saw it? No, I just went there out of the blue. Okay.

[00:12:46] And I saw this play and Amrish Puri was in it, Amol Palekar was in it, Dina Patak was in it. And because I had gone with someone who knew these people, so we went backstage and I just couldn't get over the fact that Amol Palekar was playing this, you know, very beautiful, saintly, poet type character. Devdath was sitting backstage and smoking a cigarette. And I had one of those moments. Devdath can't be smoking. I mean, that was the illusion was so complete.

[00:13:17] And after that play, I said, you know, this is amazing that theatre can do this. And this is what I want to be a part of. As he said, that era, you know, GPD came and he completely changed my mindset, Gopu Deshpande, about modern Marathi theatre. And I was under the impression that, you know, Marathi middle class is so important and how we have tradition of theatre and all these things. But he changed and he said, no, first play was written by Mahatma Phule in 1850 and not Vishnuda's Bhave.

[00:13:47] And why Marathi Brahmins have, you know, like almost snatched that medium and, you know, they have made it theirs. And, you know, all the Marathi theatre identity belongs to this middle class Brahminical system. So, yeah, so he changed the politics in me. And, you know, it really affected me as a person because as I told you, I come from a typical Marathi middle class Maharashtrian family.

[00:14:16] So, and this is my interesting thing that I want to talk to both of you about. And this is something that you actually said. So, I'm going to quote you on that. And it's very true that urban theatre has very limited reach. Even whether it's about the impact that we are talking about or, you know, because and particularly English theatre, I would assume in our country particularly has very limited reach. And both of you have actually done a lot of work where you'll have gone a little bit more into the interiors.

[00:14:44] And you'll have like, you know, gone beyond just the metropolitan cities. And you'll have kind of as a very conscious decision to kind of work with that. So, I just want to talk a little bit about that. Like what prompted that? How did that happen? She does a lot of work, I know. And you've also, I remember, I think, was it Cotton 56 when you were doing that? You were kind of going and performing. You were touring a lot. You were touring a lot and kind of, you know, taking it beyond just the obvious, you know. So, yeah, maybe whoever.

[00:15:12] Actually, what happened when we were doing, when I came out of NSD and me and my husband, we were, we always. That was an NSD romance? Yeah. Oh, okay. National Spouse Department. So, when we came here, we thought that we have to have some, you know, just doing our

[00:15:39] work professionally was not enough for both of us. So, we were trying to see what else can we add, you know, in our life. And that time we met Nilesh Nimkar who was an educationist. He was working with one of the major institutes, educational institutes in Palghar district. At that time it was Thane district.

[00:16:04] And he used to conduct these study groups where we used to go and learn about primary education, elementary education, aspects of elementary education. And that was quite interesting because I got introduced to different world altogether. So, another impact, you know, another thing which impacted me a lot other than NSD was this study group which we attended.

[00:16:28] For a year we were learning philosophy of education, how a particular subject is taught in a class, in an elementary classroom, you know, first to fourth grade or first to sixth grade. What is national policy of education? So, all these topics were discussed and we used to give presentation. And then at the end of the study group, it lasted for a year.

[00:16:55] Nilesh said that we have to, you know, I'm leaving my NGO and I want to start my own NGO. So, we all gathered together to, you know, help him. And we were all part of Quest, Quality Education Support Trust. Yes, yes. And during that time, I got a chance to work with teachers. And for nearly four, we started in 2007. And for nearly four or five years, I was working with teachers.

[00:17:24] I was using theatre tools to make them, you know, more open and, you know, because teachers from rural areas are not, they don't have that kind of exposure. Right. So, through theatre, we were trying to give them those soft skills, you know, develop their vocabulary, you know, how they can understand a text. And slowly, we started working with the locals also, youngsters from local areas.

[00:17:52] And then we got to this point of, you know, Goshtaranga, where we thought that we can use theatre as a medium to enhance reading and writing skills in students. In the kids. That's why dramatization of children's literature in schools. So, we run this program from 2014 onwards. And that time, really, I got an idea that what it is to perform for children or in rural areas where, you know, there is so much of less exposure.

[00:18:21] People are, it's just 110 kilometers from Bombay, but they have never seen a play. Nice. And, like I said, you know, I come from a middle-class Maharashtrian family. Theatre is our culture. So, nothing like that exists. Only one or two percent of Maharashtrian people watch theatre. The mainstream commercial theatre. Otherwise, people don't know, people don't have an idea about theatre. They haven't seen theatre at all. And, Sunit, when did you start that?

[00:18:47] When did you start moving away from the tried and tested arenas to kind of, you know, push those boundaries? No, I think in that sense, I stayed very much within theatre. I mean, you talked about Cotton 56, Polyester 84. There, it was a play on the history of the mill workers. And we felt, and it's basically, you know, based on research that Ramu did. And also very, very wonderful oral history of that area, of that work. But all the characters are mill workers. It's their history.

[00:19:17] So, we felt it would be odd for us just to take the story and play it to kind of upper-class audiences. You know, it is, in a sense, the history of the mill workers. Why don't we play it back to that community itself, right? So, what we did was, we had tie-ups. And this project was funded by the India Foundation for the Arts. So, we said that, you know, give us a little more money so that we can actually tour with the play to other, you know, cotton textile mill towns of Maharashtra.

[00:19:46] So, we went and performed in Indore. Indore has a large, you know, textile mills there. We went into, you know, Latour. All over, we traveled a great deal with the play. Essentially, performing to working-class audiences. And that was very interesting for us. And performing in traditional theater spaces? Or you were… So, very interesting, you know. So, in our typical sort of, you know, urban, liberal thing, you know, I would say, talk

[00:20:13] to a union person, trade union person and say, you know, we can perform anyway. You just tell us, you know, community hall and all that. So, he says, what makes you think we don't want to see it in an auditorium? We'd like to see it in an auditorium properly. So, you know, this thing about we'll do it anywhere. It was all this kind of slightly romantic notion. Was it easy to get these workers in to watch it? Not at all. It was not at all. It was very easy. So, they would… And how was that when it was actually being performed for them as a…

[00:20:43] Well, they saw it very differently, you know. They saw… They looked at it from a cast angle. Okay. Because that's very much part of the play. Some… At one show, in fact, in the Indoor performance, there was… There were a couple of workers who were very drunk and very angry with the play. Said, what do you… We know all this. Give us a solution to our problem. You know, we are literally destitute. All the mills have shut down. We have no jobs. You know, it's all very well for you to tell us our story.

[00:21:12] But what's the future for us? So, people responded, you know, sometimes very, very strongly. What was interesting was that the generation, the second generation, you know, some of the mill workers would bring their, you know, children in. And children meaning youth. You know, not little children. Youth, you know, 20, 21, you know, that kind of thing. And they have heard stories about the mills from their father and their grandfather or from an uncle. They have never really experienced it. So, for them, it was very interesting to see. You know, they really…

[00:21:41] They said it gave them a very different perspective. One is when, you know, somebody in the family tells you it used to be like this and some of it is nostalgic, some of it is romantic. But to see it a little more objectively, that really was… I think that generation was most impacted by it, I think. Wow. Geetanjali, one interesting thing that… Which is… I wanted to talk about was that, you know, we are talking about like traditional forms of theatre. Yeah. And for example, you spoke of NSD and the stuff that you were doing.

[00:22:09] But say something like a lavni, which is not something that you were originally trained in, I would assume. No, not really. But this is now in a later stage. Is that some sort of a… Like you've kind of brought that a little bit into the mainstream focus. And that's been as a conscious effort to kind of, you know, like heroate a bit. When did your interest in that start?

[00:22:32] We have to understand as a society that the knowledge these people have, the wisdom they have and the culture, you know, it comes, it's in their blood. So we have, as educated people or privileged people, we have to give that dignity to these people. Like, you know, we used in 70s, they used all these folk forms in theatre. Right.

[00:22:58] You know, Ratanthiam or Habibji or, you know, all these people. Or even in Ganshiram Kotwal, Tendulkar used Tamash artists. Theatre of Roots. What is known as Theatre of Roots? So we, it's, I think that, that as, when I was working with Quest, we were doing interdisciplinary thing, education and theatre.

[00:23:22] Likewise, we have to, the urban theatre and the traditional folk theatre has to mingle and, you know, then we will be also, we will also benefit from it. Not just those people. No, but there is always, you see, there is also this danger of appropriation. Yes. Okay. Now you are, you know, when I say you, I don't mean you particularly, but an urban practitioner is in a position of power much more.

[00:23:49] You know, we have any of examples where an urban theatre practitioner picks up a folk performer as part of their work. Yeah. And very, it's almost like I have discovered this. Right. You know, and you understand. Yeah. You know, a 300 year old tradition, you've just picked it up and start using it and suddenly it's yours. And you've also produced a play. Did you produce, there was a play called Ek Rikami Baju. Yes.

[00:24:18] Actually, what happened, I was doing Marathi Commercial Theatre. I did two, three plays with Paresh Mokashi. Right. And then, like in actor's life, a lul came and there was no work. And I was really not understanding why, you know, I'd got some awards also. I did all the 500 shows or 200 shows which a good disciplined actor should do. Yeah.

[00:24:43] But still I didn't get any offers from the regular stalwarts from Marathi Commercial Theatre. So, I thought that I was doing TV at that time and I was earning some kind of money. So, I thought I should produce my own play. And if I'm a bad, I'll do batting sort of. So, I played the main role. So, Aniruddha Kutwardh.

[00:25:10] At that time, I was doing workshops also because of Aniruddha Kutwardh. So, there we met. I told him that there's a good script. We should work on it. And he suddenly got the translation and adaptation of it. And Veena Zamkar, me and Padmana Bindh, we did a play called Ekrika Me Vazu. It was on breast cancer issue. Yes, yes. And we did almost 30 to 35 shows. And that was the beginning of like I understanding theatre completely. You know, this was before Quest and before Goshtaranga.

[00:25:36] Actually, I believe that like in some countries you have the compulsory draft. You know, where you spend two years in the R&E. I think all young people should work in theatre production for two years. Yes, absolutely. Production. Don't let them come on stage. No, no, no, no. No acting. Production. Production. You become so innovative. You become so smart at getting things done. And handling… I'm telling you, it's a training for life. Make 10 rupees do the work of 20 rupees. You know, deal with people.

[00:26:06] Deal with, you know, organizational things. Find Juga art. Make things happen. I agree. I'm always short-staffed. I agree. So, yeah. So, one of the places where of course I've seen both of you collaborate was a play called Sex, Morality and Censorship. Yeah. Which we spoke about briefly. Which I thought was a fantastic play. Of course, you've heard that enough. But I wanted to talk about one of Sunil's favorite topics which is censorship. Yeah.

[00:26:32] So, I want to talk about that a little bit in terms of… So, when we started doing theater, we thought that we're under the radar. We're not censorship. Who's the threat? That we're actually doing censorship. But you've had different experiences. Yeah. So, what has that journey been like? And was that what prompted this play? Yes, absolutely. It was not just about theater censorship. It was about censorship. In general, yes.

[00:27:00] I was sitting at Bangalore Airport one day waiting to come back to Bombay. And two or three things had happened, you know. One was that this was when the first BJP government had come into power at the center. That was a brief period when they were there. And we used to… I used to be a documentary filmmaker also. And it was during this period that there was a big…

[00:27:26] There was censorship of documentary films in the Mumbai International Film Festival. Oh, really? Yes, yes. And that was… For the first time, you know, we sort of started seeing that happen. And then there was a parallel festival and protests, etc., etc. Hussein's paintings had been slashed. Yes. And attacked. Yes. You know, this… The atmosphere had started changing. And I said, you know, this is something that really we should be talking about. This is what year?

[00:27:55] I'm very bad at dates. But it must have been, you know, 2010 or something like that. Yeah, roughly around that time. 7, 8, 8. 8, 9, 10 maybe around that time. And I said, it's really important we talk… And I said, if we talk about censorship, who says no and why do they say no? Right. That was the idea. So, we are theatre people. Let's talk about censorship in theatre. Because that's something that's close to heart. And then when you say, let's talk about censorship in theatre and you're producing in Maharashtra and in Bombay.

[00:28:22] Then in 1972, the iconic case study of censorship is Sakharam Binder. You know. And the advantage of Sakharam Binder is that it's a documented episode. Yes. You know, there is a book, Binder Chhidivas, that the producer, director of the play actually wrote himself. Many of the people who were part of that production or who were active at that time were still alive at that time. So, we could actually go and interview them and do that kind of thing.

[00:28:49] So, the idea was to look at censorship and try and understand why it happens and, you know, why does the state or why does the society say no to something? So, the play grew out of that. It was an idea and then that grew. Shanta Gokhale came in and gave us a very, very tight framework to work in. Irawati came in and did a lot of the research. So, we worked on it for almost nine months to a year before going into rehearsal.

[00:29:18] So, the script was developed from scratch. So, that was the idea of that play. And how was that, eventually the questions that were raised by that production? Yeah. And how were those received? Did you face any kind of… There was no problem in terms of the playing script. In fact, you know, there was a scene, a documented scene that, you know, Kamdakar Sarang had actually talked about an interaction that he had with the censor board when his play was being sort of resisted. Right. So, that is recreated on stage.

[00:29:47] We also used to, you know, make fun of the fact that you don't get a permanent certificate. You always, when your plays are slightly dicey, they give you a provisional certificate. And then they just check out what's the reaction to the play. And if there is some kind of hostile reaction to the play, then they withdraw the certificate. And our play at that time had a temporary certificate. Right. So, and which we used to say at the end, you know, we've got a temporary certificate. And then the day we got a permanent certificate, we were most disappointed because then we couldn't crack that joke. So, it was interesting.

[00:30:14] But it was not really sex morality that, actually, Cotton 56, Polyester 84 ran into trouble. Okay. And they said, we have a rule. They could never show us that rule. But we have a rule that you cannot talk about living politicians. And that play used to talk about Bal Thakre and his role of the Shiv Sena, you know, in history at that time. The Shiv Sena, you know, and against the communist unions. Right. Milburg has had communist unions. Right.

[00:30:42] So, they said, you can't have any reference to Bal Thakre in this or anybody else who's a living politician. So, I've had plenty of run-ins with the censor board. There was a time when I would arrive at the censor board with the script and they would say, oh my God, here we go again. That kind of thing. There was one play, I won't take the name now because it's too recent, where we had to negotiate what I could keep and what I would give up. Wow. Yeah. Wow. I was going to ask what your riskiest production was.

[00:31:09] Actually, if you want that, sir, then you'll have to give up something else. Wow. Yeah. But there was a dialogue. There was a dialogue. There was a dialogue. But, of course, the interesting thing is the most absurd thing to try and do is to censor live performance. You know, as a director, you have no control over what your actors are going to do. Some guy sitting there censor board is going to control? No. Give me a break. Yeah. You're not going to monitor every live performance in the country, in the state that are you sticking to.

[00:31:39] It's a joke. It's a joke. I mean, morally and in terms of the eye, on principle, it's completely not acceptable. But even in a practical level, what are you trying to impose? It's ridiculous. Do you know every song that you sing has to be in public, has to also be censored? Any live performance. Wow. Yeah. That's Maharashtra and Gujarat. The only two states left in this country that follow a draconian colonial law of 1897 or something like that.

[00:32:09] The thing is, do you now find yourself holding back when you're choosing a script? I wouldn't say holding back. I mean, you know, in this case, I would not have done Barricade. Right. Because Barricade, in that sense, is the most in your face. I'm not saying it's the most political work, but it's most in your face politically. I think I've been very, very aware of the dangers. I think the real danger is of self-censorship. Yes. You know, and that is the intent.

[00:32:39] That you create an atmosphere of fear so that you don't have to do anything after that. People censor themselves. And then, you know, that's how you, that's the whole idea of creating an atmosphere of fear. Right. Yeah. Then you don't have to go around catching individuals. Everybody's just so scared that they're not doing anything. Right. So I think you, as artists, we have to, and I'm not saying this, that everybody has to do it, but those of us who are interested in this kind of work and feel that that's important, I think our biggest worry is actually self-censorship. Yeah.

[00:33:07] Secondly, is not to take ourselves that seriously, thinking that, you know, that our work is going to lead to some incredible change. Yeah. Okay. And this is what I mean when I said that theater has a very, very limited reach. Reach, yes. But what I think is very important that in the landscape of performances, theater, music, if somebody were to say, somebody were to go on to book my show and say, what do I watch today or this weekend?

[00:33:33] And at the end of their search, they might choose the most conventional, obvious thing to watch. Right. They might go to NMAC and see something, Life of Pi or something. Right. That doesn't matter. But in their search, do they also come upon other kinds of work that are not conventional, that are questioning? Right. That you become aware that, oh, it is possible for these things to coexist. There can be work about that questions that's political, that's asking questions of the state, of society, etc. That that exists.

[00:34:03] Our biggest worry today is that all that is becoming invisible. The idea is to wipe it out completely. Exactly. The mainstream strength and power can never be underestimated. You know, I'm saying that today we have to survive this so that we remain, something remains. And it's not very difficult for them to wipe us out, make us completely invisible and irrelevant. So I think that's really the, I think that's really what we can do.

[00:34:29] And I think that's what I want, not at mainstream level, I can do that. I don't have, I don't see myself doing that. But that's what I do when I work with children. Right. So introducing books like, you know, The Wai Wai Girl or Our Amazing Cow or Carver. So introducing these books to them. As an ideology, there is something. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Where you question. She's absolutely right.

[00:34:55] So I feel that more than censorship, we need education. Yes. And if we, at our personal level, not necessarily, you know, everybody can, as Sunil said, everybody can do mainstream stuff. But we have to keep that thing alive. You know, today's time, a space where you can come in and have an intelligent conversation

[00:35:21] and listen to differing points of view without killing each other is a radical act. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? Right? No, so I, we had the last episode was with, you know, with a stand-up comic. And he was talking about how his show has had to evolve and that self-censorship. Yeah. It's because now people are offended by anything. Forget the politics of it. Yeah. Politics is, of course, one thing. But the other thing is everyone's now upset about everything.

[00:35:47] So, you know, it's almost like you have to kind of keep, you know, nipping and tucking to just kind of make sure that. And so, very late in life, of course, I mean, see, like we say, there was always undertones of stuff in place that we chose that, you know, that were things that kind of mattered. And I think maybe post-COVID, there was a little bit of, you know, just awakening that happened in terms of just wanting to be a little bit more relevant, perhaps. So, you know, make a, so, I mean, and the funny thing is, so we did an adaptation of an Ibsen play, which is a plastic. Yeah, there's something in the water.

[00:36:17] I mean, Ibsen, man. No, no, no. Very political. So, you modernized it. The moment you modernized it, of course, the politics became in your face. In your face. And it had actually reached a point where during our first run, someone tweeted something and I had to ask my cast. I said that, are you all feeling comfortable to go on for the next one? Because I don't know who's showing up. Like, and you know, they were reacting to the stupidest things. They won't actually react to the political point of the play is making. They'll react to that one joke that was thrown away. It's not that he said something offensive over there.

[00:36:47] It's not that we are actually questioning a larger problem that they're not looking at. So, I think that, yeah, it's a weird kind of, you know, how to find the balance in that. But of course, Sunita's right. I don't know how far reaching the impact is, quite honestly. Yeah, but I don't think we should over worry about that. The fact that you exist is also now important. Yeah. The fact that it's happening is also important. That is, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:37:13] Just to kind of talk about like, so I was thinking about it, like in terms of this, in terms of, you know, the political potential of theater, which has always existed, of course, so in terms of like, you said there was a period of change where we were talking about why are we doing what are we doing, right? So, I'm saying like, I recently shot something in which Sudhanwa Deshpande was acting. And he gifted me the Hullabol book.

[00:37:40] And I was, you know, that was a big, I knew, but I was reading all about it. And photographic. 1989, that happened. And so, that was kind of a watershed moment in terms of, where were you when that happened? Well, it was here in Bombay. We just heard about it. We just, you know. And what was the, what was the vibe? No, I think everybody was very disturbed. Everything was, everybody was very disturbed by what had happened. Because that was really very in your face. And, you know, it was a person had been killed there. I mean, it's not. Yeah, I was in Bombay.

[00:38:07] I think I was in college or school and I had read it in the newspaper. And when I went to NSD, it was just the next lane. Right. Yeah. Where he was killed. Right. When I was walking and I realized that it's Sabdar Hashmiro. But did that change anything? Do you think people got quieter or louder? No, I think there was in fact quite a strong response to that. Right. Yeah.

[00:38:36] And interestingly, at that time, there was a space for that kind of response was possible. Yeah. So, immediately the next day, they were back there performing. Right. Right. Right. Then the annual, on the 1st of January, the festivals started happening. You know, there was a kind of a swelling support at that time. You know, there was an upswell. And it happened. It happened. But, you know, how these things are. They're there up to a point and then they slowly dissipate. And some people keep it alive and that kind of thing.

[00:39:06] Also, I think it affected and it impacted far more directly those who were doing activist theater. Right. You know, street theater actively out there. Our theater is not really like that. Yes. For me, I personally, I don't see myself as an activist really, you know. So, in that sense, it didn't have a direct impact. But I do know that among street theater performers, it had a very, very strong impact. Then, of course, street theater has got completely NGOized, you know.

[00:39:35] So, you know, that has also now been sanitized and, you know, completely taken away. What is street theater now? College level, there's a lot of that josh and energy. And then beyond that, it's just become… And Janam, of course, keeps working. But, you know, it's really one of the few groups that is still around. I was going to ask about your acting career. Because that's how I first saw you in Kalyug, a film. Me too. Yeah. And then why you stopped doing that.

[00:40:05] That was something that was… There was such an innocent job. Yeah. Well, my first 10 years were as an actor. Right. And then circumstances then made me shift to direction. It took me almost two or three years to shift my mind to a direction mind. Right. Yeah. No, but I've seen you back on stage of late. In narrator mode. But… Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I do. And I enjoy it. Yeah. I've also done, you know, small parts in…

[00:40:32] Sometimes when my arm is twisted and the money is good and then OTT kind of thing. Oh. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, great fun. Wow. It's very theatrical. They say, just cool it, cool it, cool it. Yeah. Sir, don't give this much. OTT, you mean the medium that Gitanjali rules? Where she gets awards every season. But I liked it because I got to wear nice clothes, you know. And they dyed my hair black for me. So it was good fun. I like it. I like it. I like the attention that you get there.

[00:41:03] But, yeah. Okay. It's very hard work acting. It's very hard work. I'll open it up now for any questions that may be there from the audience. Are there any? Oh, my goodness. Okay. As you have said that you have been a gap. You have been bridging the gap between the theatre that used to happen and the theatre that happens today. What do you think has been the change for? Is it for the better?

[00:41:29] Is the theatre that is happening these days better from what used to happen? Or which one do you prefer? As a practitioner who has seen the times. You have seen the times. So, what do you feel the change is all about? There are very different kinds of theatre. So, eventually, it's your taste in theatre what you enjoy. And, again, to generalize that, you know, there are many different kinds of theatre practices across the country.

[00:41:54] So, I'm talking about perhaps the kind of theatre practice you see of a particular kind in a particular language in Mumbai, for instance. Okay. So, for instance, there is more devising work. You find that a particular kind of theatre is doing much more movement, physical work, you know. This is new in that sense. And you see more and more of that happening.

[00:42:16] But that coexists with, say, as Geetanji has been talking about the commercial theatre in Marathi and Gujarati, that still follows conventions that are, forget my generation, even older than that. Okay. The drawing room plays still happen. So, many kinds of theatres coexist. So, it's very difficult to say what is good and what is bad. But there is an energy and I would certainly say that there is far more theatre activity in Mumbai today.

[00:42:42] There are more people making theatre and more people watching theatre than ever used to happen before. Yeah. And that's definitely a good thing. Yeah. Any more questions from there? Yes. Is there a moral responsibility on artists to have a political stance or is entertainment for entertainment's sake okay? Yeah, it's fine. That's what I said. It's entirely up to you. I mean, there's no such thing.

[00:43:11] I would encourage you to think more thoughtfully about what you do. But there are many kinds of practice. I mean, you know, for instance, in England, there is the tradition of the working director. The working director is very skilled in the craft. Their job is just to direct a play. That's it. They will be told, this is the play that we want direct to direct. They don't choose it because, oh, you know, this play speaks to me. And they'll make a perfectly good production, well presented. But it will be an illustrative work. It will not be an interpretive work.

[00:43:39] If you're happy with that, that's fine. And you make a perfectly good living doing that. And I'm saying in a scenario where even the most realized so-called directors here don't know the basic craft, then I'm saying at least these guys are trained to do it. You know, that's better, right? So, I don't think so. I think you should follow your, you know, you should want to, you should arrive at your own decisions. You know. And I also feel that when you have, I think as Sunil said, you have to find your own voice.

[00:44:07] And when you find your own voice, you will ask questions. You will question, not necessarily politically, but you will ask questions to yourself. Why am I doing this? I will go to, it's supposed to be a rapid fire section. I'm not a rapid person. I'm not rapid. So, it's the slow burn. That's what I call it because I can't be fast. It's very simple. It's not rapid. There's no timer. There's no hamper. There's nothing.

[00:44:34] It's just, it's quicker answers. It's where we can't wax eloquent about our answers. I know, that's the problem. No, but the questions are such that you shouldn't do more than a sentence. So, it won't really, it's just, some of them might have you to choose things that might offend other people you've worked with. Meaning, is there multiple choice? No, no. You take the choice. So, I'm quickly going into this and that's the last section of it so we can let you go then. Actually, the first one is very simple and it's for both of you. The last play that you saw and loved. Oh my. See, these are common.

[00:45:04] She can answer first and you can think about it. The last play I saw, I can tell you. But the last play I saw and loved, then I have to think about it. But will it be the 70s? Is it going to be that phase? Was there anything after Dube's work that you liked? No, no, no, no, no. I think after Hensei Nata, I saw you have a play. You have a play. Yeah, I saw a Marathi play, you have a play. I really like that play. Same, yeah. Is that the same one? Oh my god. See, it's the publicity. Very nice.

[00:45:34] Okay, just for fun, the last play you saw? Sharanya's play last week. The Dream Girl. So what was it called? You know, about the Kannada cinema artists of a party. I don't know this play. I don't know this play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I saw a Marathi commercial play called Surya Chi Pillai. Nice. Yeah, yeah. Again, it's a… It's an old play. It's an old play. It's a nana-nani who watched Nata. Oh, okay. Mainstream commercial. But of course, the actors were very good.

[00:46:04] And it's… The simpler then, the last film you saw and loved. I can't even remember the last film I saw. Nice. I don't really watch… It's a true theatre person. Yeah. Okay. I'm not… I'm discounting what I've seen on television. I'm talking about in… Also, loved I've said, so that'll make it tough. I was going to the 70s then. So, that's… I liked all we imagine is light. Oh, you saw that? Yeah. In theatres. I still have to. Okay.

[00:46:33] Both of you, again, one other thing that you all did is both of you all actually went in different capacities and performed at the Globe for the Shakespeare Festival and where you spoke about your play. And I know that both of you have performed across the country and the world in various venues. You… I've heard stories of you and Rasha. But… Which we can't say on our podcast. But just a simple… Across the world, your favourite venue to have performed at? Wow. One… One place.

[00:47:03] Maybe. As in like one that you remember being a wonderful experience. Well, I think the Globe was a very beautiful experience. But then there are equally beautiful experiences in other spaces. Globe was very beautiful because… It was built. Oh, yes. And, you know, 2,000 people watching and, you know, open to the air and quite… Quite… Very difficult to fail at the Globe. Very difficult to fail? Yeah. Yeah. Because the audience comes in with so much empathy and to enjoy and to like what they're going to watch. And this was… So, just… I mean, I'm slow burning.

[00:47:33] This was not necessarily an Indian audience. When we first went there for the festival, it was a large numbers of people who were Indians. Right. Gujarati Indians. Right. Because our play was in Gujarati. Sure. The second season we did there, we did a regular run. So, then it was a mixed audience. Mainly white. And they… Obviously, there's no surtitles, subtitles. There's a synopsis that is up there. Right. But no dialogue by dialogue. And they were responding. Oh, yeah. Beautiful. And how was your…

[00:48:01] I mean, firstly, was Globe also your favourite or is there a better venue you performed at? Actually, we performed in Chile in a bullfighting arena. Wow. It was like 5,000… This was Pia Behrupiah only? Yeah, Pia Behrupiah. Okay. And there were two like big screens and we had these label mics and all. But it was like… And audience all around. I'm like just five feet tall. So, I don't know whether people were able to see me or not. But I enjoyed, you know. I really…

[00:48:28] And I never imagined that, you know, I will feel… I'll be performing in an arena theatre of that scale. And there, I'm assuming it was not an Indian audience. No, not at all. It was… It was… They had Spanish subtitles. And songs were also… Were given some… But they were responding to the energy of the… Yeah, yeah. The subtitling was very good. And it was manually handled. So, if we forget it, it was handled.

[00:48:58] Wow. Okay. Might have to choose and be a little controversial. But both of you, as an audience, your favourite performer on stage? Oh, as an audience? As an audience, ma'am. Like when you go to watch a play, like an actor or actress that you would definitely go for. Yeah, yeah. No, I… See, again, this question can't be answered with one favourite. No, say five. But I would say that when you say that, the first name that comes to my mind is Mukta Barwe. Yeah. Yeah? Mukta is amazing.

[00:49:28] But now you can't say the same. Wonderful to watch. No, no. You can't say the same. I like Jyoti Dogra. Ah, so that's one person that you would not miss out. See, generational gap. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Yeah, well, I mean, I have never seen Mukta Barwe. Oh. So, yeah. She's fabulous. She's fabulous. But I had to give a different answer also. Yes. But of course, I've seen that kind of theatre a lot. Yeah. No, in a particular style of acting. Again, I'm not saying that this. She's very clearly in a particular convention of acting. And in that, her performance, especially in that play, Apna. Char Saugi.

[00:49:57] Char Saugi is a master class. Yeah. She does one phone conversation for 15 minutes. Just you hear her side. I mean, you'll just blow. But again, I've seen that performance of Vandana Gupte also. I'm sure, yeah. But that's a play that's been happening. Yeah, yeah. So, for me, that kind of theatre I've seen since my childhood. Like Bhakti Barwe, Inamdar, Vandana Gupte, Nina Kulkarni. All the Reema Lagu and now Mukta. So, these are the kind of actors I know that, you know.

[00:50:24] I know what the next, how the next line is going to be. But if it's Yuki or Jyoti, I don't know what they're performing. And they're theatre makers also. So, that excites me more than, you know, acting in a Marathi typical commercially. So, for me, it's… And men have to up their game clearly. Because only women's names have come here. So, male acting is pretty at a low right now.

[00:50:51] For you, Inanjali, for a middle class girl looking to become an actress. Break into, become an actress. What would your advice be? To a middle class? Yes. Who's wanting to kind of… You're not going to get the actor question. You're going to get the director question. So, you can think of that. No. I think if anybody wants to become an actor, I feel that if you train yourself, not necessarily in a formal school, but you have to learn a lot.

[00:51:21] And you have to see theatre a lot. And you have to, again, ask question. Why do I want to do theatre? Is it that important for me? Right. Because it is a very difficult thing to be an actor. Yes. And, you know, you get frustrated very quickly. Because nobody casts me. Or, you know, I'm not getting good roles. It's very easy to get frustrated.

[00:51:47] So, if you know, if you clearly know why I'm doing this, then there are very less chances of getting frustrated. And you will continue your work. And your work is very important. I feel that anybody, anybody, and especially privileged people, have to raise their voice. And not necessarily you have to become a professional actor. You can become, you know, I don't like this word, a mature,

[00:52:16] but you can have a parallel profession. Sure. As an actor. Sure. So, not necessarily you have to earn your living from that. Right. But you can do theatre. Theatre can be done anywhere. It doesn't need to be mainstream or, you know, you don't have to perform at Prithvi. You can perform in a classroom. So, I think that is… No, I agree because it's amazing how many people come up to me wanting work in the theatre

[00:52:46] without having actually watched any theatre. Yeah. They have not watched it. I want to do theatre. There's a lot that happens where they just come up to you. And I'm like, have you watched anything? Like, also, why have you come to me? Have you watched anything of mine? And you haven't. And I said that you have to watch everything to decide what you don't want to be a part of. Like, firstly, if you don't, like, you know, if you're looking for a theatre, but yeah, it's just amazing that there's not enough of that. So, no, that's a great point. And the last, last, very last question of this episode, Sunil, for you is,

[00:53:15] for a director starting off, who's going to direct for the first time, words of wisdom. So, I think one of the big problems that I see is, in our country, you know, directors are being put in place. And scene. And cut. You know, being a good organiser is not being a good director.

[00:53:44] Being, you know, holding your authority in a room is not, that's one part. Yes, you have to be good at all that. But, I think, I think being a director is really being interested in everything. And I will echo to a large extent what Geetanjali has said, that theatre is about life, yeah? So, you have to be interested in everything in life. You need to study a lot. You need to see the connections between things. That is what will make your work interesting. That when you are able to

[00:54:13] give an audience a new insight into an everyday situation, and I, you know, you're not going to be finding a unique story. It's not going to happen always, right? But it's how you tell the story. What do you see in the story? So, that requires a lot of study, a lot of thinking. And, of course, the craft is very, very, very critical, you know? You, you, you know, any carpenter knows that unless, you know, he knows to work the saw and the chisel, you're not going to make a table. Why do theatre directors feel that they can direct

[00:54:42] a play without knowing the basic tools, right? So, it's study, it's the mind, it's the craft, and it's an interest in people, interest in life, and that's really critical for that. If you don't have that, forget it. A tremendous amount of physical stamina and mental stamina goes into direction. I'm going to sleep today. Well, that was wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you. On that note of self-reflection,

[00:55:12] and changing my line of work, thank you so much for agreeing to be on this, and to impart the information. I hope it was fun for you. Yeah, it was fun. Thank you so much. And it was good to just hang out with both of you because that doesn't happen enough. But here's to more of those sessions. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.