How to Become a Performer ft. Vinay Kumar, Nimmy Raphel & Atul Kumar

[00:00:02] Theatre can be learned in two ways. One, you can go to an institute or just go and write and perform. A performer is born in their forties. So what are they doing before that? Their training. The last three years I discover the real reasons why I do theatre have appeared to me only now. Like the problem with most of us are when we enter into a performance, we bring certain tools that is part of our mannerism. The point is how to break that in time.

[00:00:29] We constantly talk about, you know, I become a character. But there exists a possibility that you can make the audience become something. You mentioned that for about three years you were doing Kathakali and Kallri Payudu. Does it still come in handy? It was the first time that I felt I had a purpose. Can acting be learned? The craft can be learned. But what makes it tangible is your imagination. So imagination, I don't know if you can learn it.

[00:00:53] Hello and welcome to another episode of Unscripted with Akarsh Khurana, an Adhyam podcast produced by M&M Talkies. One thing that a lot of young thespians are looking for is a way to teach themselves how theatre works.

[00:01:20] And I think it is quite easy to go down this rabbit hole of all the various methodologies that exist. In today's episode, we'll be speaking about at least a couple of them. On one hand, we have Adi Shakti, deeply rooted in tradition with their own unique style, frame of work and of course a space for research. And on the other hand, we have a very different perspective, one that stems from global influences, yet remains culturally rooted. And hopefully by the end of this conversation, we'll have some insight into the process of learning theatre.

[00:01:49] So please welcome Vinay Kumar, Nimi Rafael and Atul Kumar. Seated between two Kumars. Before getting into talking about like more, you know, research and training. I wanted to discuss something which is prevalent in theatre per se. And of course, you all have that, which is mentorship. Clearly, Veena Paani Chawla has been a great mentor for a lot of people, including perhaps Atul and others.

[00:02:17] But it would be really nice if the two of you could talk a little bit about her and what she stood for and what the main takeaway, of course there's everything, but what the main takeaway from someone like her was for you. And, you know, just as mentors, I'm assuming she is a mentor figure to both of you in a very big way. So if you could talk a little bit about her and then Atul will have to think of a mentor that he wants to talk about. Yes. So, yeah.

[00:02:41] I think, you know, right now, I hear this, you know, we use the term mentor very loosely. Right. And I think for me, it, I want to say guru. Yes. And I think that has more depth into it.

[00:03:03] And I think for me, Veena Paani, as my guru, is someone who sees a possibility beyond who you are. And that requires time. And I think mentorship can only happen through a consistent amount of time that you spend with your guru. And that would mean that you are allowing your mentor to shape yourself.

[00:03:32] Right. And also to push to a place where you are uncomfortable. Because we are born with that sense of uncertainty. When, you know, when you, when you decide to act, when you decide to go on stage, when you decide to explore something, that space is not very comfortable because we are very uncertain about what we do. And there is the mind that comes in and it stops everything that the body wants to do.

[00:03:58] And if there is impulsively you do something, it just stays for just for that improvisation. So the, the mentor who sees that spark, she holds it in her head and uses that possibility to further yourself. And therefore, I think that's what Veena Paani did for me to show me a space where things can exist. What I learned from that is that one doesn't have to be scared of failure. Right.

[00:04:24] I think, you know, we are, we are living in a world where perfection we have kept at a pedestal and we all suffer from it. And I think as artists, the capability and the understanding that one can fail and fail beautifully and fail multiple times. And I think that can only happen in front of a mentor who you can trust. Yes.

[00:04:45] Oh, my, my time is a life changing one because I came, I met Veena Paani in Kerala because my teacher at that time working with her in her play called Savitri. And then he has some family issues. He couldn't come. So Veena Paani asked, can I cast me? And he said, happily, he said, go away. So I came here and worked till, we are staying here in Santa Cruz and working till, in Bombay. In Bombay that was a good one. Ninety-one to ninety-six we are here.

[00:05:15] But by ninety-five once Savitri leg is over, Veena Paani decided that she's done with theatre and she wants to shift back to Ashram. That is in Pondicherry. Okay. So she said, I'm winding up here. I'm going to, I said, what the hell am I going to do? I just taken everything from Kerala. So then there is, there is this possibility that to study for MA courses in theatre because we have a theatre department. So I said, okay, I'll also tag along. I will join the MA courses.

[00:05:44] Already I completed the BTA. So let's try. At that time, if you take a PhD, then you can be getting lots of jobs in National School of Drama and allied places. So, okay, that may be my destiny. I tagged along and I joined the theatre course. And Veena Paani started slowly shifting and shutting herself to the Ashram and doing Ashram work once in a while we meet. But after four months, I realized that what I learned from my degree course is what exactly I'm learning for me. Nothing new. It's very frustrating.

[00:06:12] So I just went back to Veena Paani and said, Veena Paani, this is not on. You need to do a play for me. I came all along trusting you can't do that. And that's why she decided to step back from the Ashram journey one. And I think she's also not yet ready for that. Because she realized that without doing theatre, she don't survive. So that's the correct moment we synergy happened. We decided and then our first place born absolutely an accident.

[00:06:42] And we used to get this annual massage, martial art massage. So we went to this deep, like a very remote village in Kerala. We carried like six, seven books and we thought that we will, it's last till the 15 days. But fourth day, Veena Paani's talk is over. And she used to stare, I'm reading a very famous Mariam book. And I relish and literally am reading it. She jealously looked at it. And third day she said, okay, translate for me because I have nothing left.

[00:07:10] So it's a very famous book called Second Chance by a well-known writer who just recently died. It's about looking at the entire Mahabharata from Bhima's perspective. Okay. And that, my own broken English, I translated 200 pages of Malayalam. I don't know what she perceived it. Whichever way it's inspired her to create a script that's our first place.

[00:07:35] So actually, that process, what I'm trying to say is like, I had a four year training in theatre. But at the end of it, quite confused and disillusion is not there. Because these are, most of the methods that we are hearing is hearsay. It's not a first-hand experience of parts. Like a bit from here, bit from here, bit from here. And it can get confusing. And my fourth semester was European theatre. And then I finished like 15 plays.

[00:08:02] I'm just absolutely like drained in a sense that, as a performer, I'm not start enjoying it. But then when I go to my village and see a folk performer who can do a whole performance whole night, he can sit around, smoke a cigarette, have one pack, come back and do next two hours. Yeah, of course. And they are having a blast. I'm saying, what? Is the content is killing us? Yeah. Is the intellectuality is the content is what killing us? Why aren't we enjoying our own performance? Yes, of course, the thali, we enjoy it.

[00:08:32] We enjoy the clap. But as a... So that's where I'm also in a lookout for an alternative way of thinking. Looking at performance. Not taking like this pedestal, serial world, series one rather. Let me have a blast. Let me have a performance energy. At the same time, I have the ability to think about the cinema I'm going to watch tomorrow. Yeah. I'm saying that's not the process, but as an example. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Inspiring.

[00:08:59] And so, yes, speaking about mentors, Atul, who's been an important influence in your theatrical life? Very difficult, man. Very difficult to answer that. I realized the worth of what both Nimi and Vinay just said about time, space and singularity, you know, the kind of groundedness which Ati Shakti has had with me.

[00:09:28] In spite of me, in spite of me even imagining a place like Kamshet, that has never happened. I don't know the reason, though I understand the worth of being grounded in something and then going deeper. Yes. I have not able to, I've never been able to do that. My earlier influences were, of course, City Theatre of Delhi, where my mentor was K Madhavan, a wonderful gentleman who had worked with French theatre.

[00:09:57] And that is the reason why I took on to study French because I wanted to go to France and study the literature in its original language. That's why I... Which you did. Yes. I studied French culture, civilization and language and then I, in JNU, and then I went to France where I worked with Philippe Jonti. He is a wonderful, he originally an architect and engineer who made larger than life puppets visual theatre. So for three years I worked with him.

[00:10:27] I closely followed Peter Brooks journey and his writings. I never met him in my life. So he was sort of a drone for me. And then coming back, I realized that I need to search in my own country for, you know, to find a mentor, to find a direction. I tried getting into NSD, but those are the days when Ratanthiam Sahib was the director and there were more strikes than classes. Right.

[00:10:57] So I got disillusioned, found myself in Kerala from Delhi. I took a Kerala Express which ran for three days, two nights and got me there. I met a wonderful gentleman called Kavalam Narayan Panikar and he took me in his theatre group. And I started working with him. I started translating. He wanted to do one of his Malayalam plays in Hindi for some strange reason. So I started translating with him. I was with him for six months.

[00:11:26] And again, it didn't work out with him very well. But in the process, I discovered Kathakali and Kallari Pai. Right. So I stayed back in Kerala for about three and a half years. And in Trivandrum, I had two Ashans, two teachers who I could call probably the biggest influence of my, you know, theatre learning and of course Kallari. So those were really strong years of my formation.

[00:11:51] Then there was a lot of travel again to France, to America, to different parts of the country. Finally landing up in Bombay, making my own theatre group. My biggest stint of theatre making was with this fantastic man called Rajat Kapoor. Who's friendship I valued right from my initial days because he's the one who brought me into Chingari. In Delhi, I was 15 years old. Oh, that was lovely.

[00:12:20] And he made me do a Marx Frisch play, which is an absurd play in a language which I didn't know very well, English, because I'm a Hindi speaker. I come from old Delhi. So I just learned my dialogues. I didn't even know what the play meant. And I performed it at Shiram Center. So with him, I mean, no wonder we've created plays in gibberish post that. So yeah, with him it was a long journey exploring Shakespeare in clown format.

[00:12:48] So as you can see, there's been a huge number of mentors and influences. Veena Pani was huge because her teachings, her theories, the workshop that I attended, whatever little time that I, and as Vinay said, the work that I kept learning from. And then of course, there is a huge influence of Comedia and Chaplin and Keaton and the silent era of cinema, the circus clown.

[00:13:19] All this has been hugely. Yeah, there you go. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, I mean, clearly, all of you are people that have kind of, you know, I don't want to use the word formal, but have been trained in various, there has been, there has been a choice of getting training, which is something that, you know, a lot of actors do look for, but perhaps don't know where to look for or don't know how to go.

[00:13:45] For example, how were you managing to, you know, go to France and what were you doing that was making all that possible for you? I think it, all these travels abroad are possible, actually even more today, because we didn't have internet then and mobility was not so cheap and easy. But the French embassy in Delhi, they had a Department of Culture sort of a thing, Cultural Embassy, they call it.

[00:14:12] And they had, they had grants and scholarships. One, now everything is online and you can see and apply and you can get them. At that time, they existed, but one had to sort of search a little more. I saw Philippe Jean-Thi perform. Right. And then there was something you wanted to follow. In 1989, they came to Delhi. Yeah. And so I wrote to them. I wrote a letter, which took about 20 days to reach Paris. Then they replied, took another month to come to me. So, yeah, it was like not an email. Yeah.

[00:14:41] But it is now possible. Yeah. Wow. But as in, y'all, all three of you would very strongly stand by the fact that training is absolutely necessary. Like some sort of formal training instead of because there's a whole lot of actors who just join theater companies and are thrown onto stage. Or are led to believe that doing backstage is training. You know, sometimes they're asked to pay for it. But that, you know, sweep the floors, get us tea, one day you'll be an actor.

[00:15:09] But clearly that's one way of thinking. But y'all would recommend as people who would be listening, young theater enthusiasts, that they should go find some sort of formal system. I think what training does is it shows you discipline. And I think discipline is necessary. I feel it's necessary because it's like doing housework.

[00:15:37] You know, you have to do your housework every day and nobody really sees it, you know. Yeah. You have to clean it. You have to clean the surface every day. And I think what it does, training does is cleaning that surface which is the body. And at some point the imagination just frees. It just frees itself to make some things possible. So I think that's what discipline and training does. When you do, this is what my understanding of tradition is.

[00:16:07] That you won't become a performer in a very traditional sense until and unless you have gone through a rigorous training of 8 to 9 years. And then you are going on stage. It's very different right now. But then, you know, you required that kind of time. And that, what it does is in the repetition, you're repeating the same movement over and over and over again. And in the repetition, something happens. So I believe training is necessary.

[00:16:38] For that taking off to happen. Because we keep saying a performer is born in their 40s. So what are they doing before that? They're training. They're training to go through the failures. They're training to see what the brokenness of the body, what and all the instrument. It has to go through certain changes in order for it to get somewhere. Do you feel similarly? No, I'm saying, I'm all for saying that.

[00:17:05] If I say training is not needed, I will run out of my business and profession. So I will vouch for it. No, but I'm saying what kind of training? Because anybody wants to be an actor, we tend to look at a very formalized training as a first step. I would say my formative years of using my body has not even come from theatre. It's play. I will say my body is shaped because I used to play cricket.

[00:17:36] And we used to have two wicket keepers. And we are constantly in competition. So my ideal at that time is a person called Jeff Dujon. If anybody remembers. So even a simple catch, he will do a somersault. And I just started copying it. And even though he is very good. The other one is very good in collecting spin. Fast bowling, he sucks. So and people used to be when we go for tournaments. They used to love all the jumping around. With performance. It's an absolute performance.

[00:18:05] So even like a simple catch, you take a somersault. It's like best we could give an award. And I really played into the gallery to get that three consecutive years I got. But what later I realized my entire physical body at that time, I employed in something way. Way I think I pushed it in every corner possible. Like we every Saturday, Sunday we used to have a tournament.

[00:18:34] So endurance is morning to evening. Standing under sun and playing is what maybe shaped my body. Now if I go into a formal training person, that's what you don't agree with me. But as a trainer, I can tell you that's what helped me into subsequently opening up myself to learn other forms. Even like we had a show in New York. And there was one very famous art historian studying person called Richard Schreiner.

[00:19:01] And Schreiner asked what inspired this play for your work in order to create Brughandala. And in my sincerity, I told Tom and Jerry. He is expecting high funda like Calvary Pite and other things. But that's actually. So I'll tell you an anecdote or a story that we used to do it. Because every play before we start, Vinapani take a stack of Tom and Jerry and show us the particular visual.

[00:19:29] Remember, Tom is chasing Jerry. Jerry vanishes. Tom reaches an intersection of three roads. And suddenly one head goes here. One body, one leg goes and comes back. And then Vinapani said, I want your body to be like this. We know that is impossibility. But the moment you keep that image, you start creating images closer to that. And it comes, it's manifest in a different way.

[00:19:57] So what training allow you to have that visual images of your director, you will have a vessel to translate. And that need a kind of agility of the mind, agility of the physicality is very important. Because remember, we are copy paste people. We see visuals all over. We are trained. And at a kind of time we are living in, we don't even, mind is reaching a saturation point. You don't want to create a stimulative visual script. Because everything is available.

[00:20:27] All I just need to cut and paste it. That itself is affecting a lot of qualitative performances of a lot of people. You can see, oh, this I've seen it in hundreds of people. What is new? That's what I'm saying. Training is a must. Any kind of training is there. Luckily, my, that period, everything is an excitement. Bruce Lee is there. So everybody wants to be a karate player. So we go to all karate classes. So this plethora of physical activity is planned. Because we get out of the home around 7 o'clock. And we only land back 5 o'clock.

[00:20:56] Our parents need to come and pick up. They will search in every bushes and open ground. Finally, we'll find us in some ground. I think that liberty is not there anymore. For the entire generation of people. How to use the body. What do you think? What's your take on this, Abdul? To begin with, just to wear the black hat. There are so many performers in Bombay that you and I have worked with. Akashu have had no training. Yeah, that was my next question. Absolutely no training.

[00:21:25] They were mentioning Sheba, for example. What a fantastic performer. But she's never had any formal training. Right. I mean, she danced Odyssey for a very few years. But very early in her life. And then after that, there was just simply getting Namit Das, Neel Bhopalam. I mean, there are so many actors who have not had serious, sustained theatre training.

[00:21:53] And we've seen them perform brilliantly on stage. But obviously, what they're talking about is something else. It's more of a spiritual journey. Mind and body. Yeah. Within the space. And I think just rigor and discipline. Yes. In any form. And I'm sure they also have their own rigor. Because Namit, for example, sings. Sings, yes. I remember him singing. We were in north of England performing the same play. Hamlet the Clown Prince. And every morning he would do his riyas for two hours. And wake all of us up.

[00:22:24] But yeah. I think all these are various ways of arriving at the same point. And I missed it. I wanted a sustained training for myself. But as I said, I never got. But you had a fair amount of. As I said, it was varied. It wasn't one thing. I kept jumping and skipping. I could never do the deep dive in my life. Which I thoroughly missed. I still miss.

[00:22:52] And I would, since you're talking about youngsters, I would say, yeah. I mean, be aware of that. That it's to latch on to something and to stay with it. And to have that patience to see how deep it can take you. And not spread yourself thin. As I think I would have in my life. I wish I had stuck on to certain things. The other thing I wanted to say is we talk of craft.

[00:23:20] We talk of our tool sets. There is also another mentorship, training, education that goes on. And that is simply life. Right. As how open are we to what's happening around in the world. What's happening in our country, in the community. Literally in our theatre community. And ourselves. And to tell you the truth.

[00:23:46] It's now that I'm 56 years old. And going through a very important phase of my life as an artist. As a person. In the last three years I discover the real reasons why I do theatre. Have appeared to me only now. And till now I was just going with the breeze. With the wind. Wherever it was taking me. And I was really concerned about only techniques and tools and all that.

[00:24:15] So one never really looked inward. Which I think with a journey like theirs with Veena. Starts as she said. Starts with looking inward. It goes in tandem. Which is what did not happen with an urban theatre maker like me. Correct. I was just running too fast. And I was running away from things which I was not even aware of. And in the interim I found this art form.

[00:24:44] This job. Theatre that happened. And you called me force to reckon with. But I don't even know what that force was. Because no seriously. I mean I. In the last three years. I've gotten into psychotherapy. Which it's something that I completely kept away. And I thought I know myself. As a person. As an artist. As a father. As a partner. As a community member.

[00:25:12] As a director to so many artists who've worked with me in this city. It's to re-evaluate all of that. That is probably the biggest learning and education that I'm having in my entire career. I would say. It's been a complete re-awakening. So it's only a beginning. And we don't have much time left. I'm 56 years old. I hope this can now sort of evolve. It can do something. It can do something.

[00:25:39] And it can influence my work in the future. In time to come. So that's something which I think all youngsters have to just completely keep themselves open. Open to that. Yeah. No. I mean it's all a rite of passage at the end of the day. And it will take its. But like speaking of that. Like this. What this may impact say the work you do now. Because we were talking about reading. I mean you mentioned that for about three years you were doing Kathakali and Kalri Payotu.

[00:26:05] Do you find that that influences or affects your work as an actor? Does it still come in handy? Absolutely. In terms of physicality. Absolutely. Physicality more than that discipline as she said. Right. It was actually the first time that I got into the whole act of. I was on the floor two hours of Kalri of course early in the morning. And then six hours of doing Kathakali non-stop with one of my Ashans at least.

[00:26:35] So I mean and every day. It was the first time that I felt that I was. I had a purpose. That I had to look forward to a routine. And that I had to like step up to it. And so my. So during. During Urichal. You follow? During Urichal. During the monsoons. The massage that my Ashan would give. He would obviously ask us to eat certain way. Not sleep in the afternoon. I remember he told me.

[00:27:04] I was be torturous. And then. And the most torturous thing would be. He would say. No contact with your wife. Abstinence. No contact. I. No touchings. I wanted to ask. And I think that it's moving a little bit away from the training aspect of it. But in terms of what you all create. You and you all. I mean. There's a very different approach. In terms of like. My awareness of whatever I have seen or heard of. Is that.

[00:27:34] You all kind of. Go quite. Like a deep dive into an Indian context. Or an Indian culture. To kind of come up with. You know. Work and stories that you. Want to tell. And is that a. A very conscious decision? Yes. It is. Is that. Is that something that you all. So. So how do you go about selecting that? I understand. There was the broken English translation. That led to one play. Which is a great story. But now. Like for example. How do you choose.

[00:28:03] What inspires you to tell a story. And. And do you ever kind of look beyond that. And want to. You know. Not necessarily tell a story from say. Which is connected to my mythology. In some manner. Okay. Whatever I'm going to say is very subjective. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. For all art aesthetics. So. For Vinapani and me. All our early career is steeped in. Creating.

[00:28:33] Either Greek tragedies. Or. Rene. Ayanasko. These are the place we done it. We done to a point. And after a point you feel that disconnect. Because you reach in a. Right. Right. You reach in a context that is so different. Your problems are different. And you reach in a place where. We started seeing that exactly. The pluralistic narrative of our myth. That forms our past. Pretty much. What we function on it.

[00:29:03] Every single thing. If you go to this end of the street. To that end of the street. Works on myth. Not on now. And I also think. You know. Emotions are very universal. Meaning. Like we. And. We say. Those emotions. Through words. Which are familiar to our language. And I think that's the only difference. So. I think in Europe. Or. In West. Wherever. They have. Talked about.

[00:29:32] Or created a mythology. Which was familiar to them. Which. Which. They've just. Lended their emotion. To those particular stories. And I think we also are doing the same. So. When we are. When we are. Creating a play. We are talking about. The universality of this emotion. The concerns are. Similar. Everywhere. I feel. Yes. Yes. Of course. It's just the stories as to. What is familiar to me. And myth is only a peg. You just only hang. Hang on it.

[00:30:01] So that there is already a framework. And you're playing against something. You're just not shooting it. In the dark. So there's always a dialogue. That's possible. And I think that's how. I also see it. Yeah. That's what I was saying. Like because you're now. An independent creator also. And you're. You know. You're. You're writing. And you're directing. Do you find yourself also. Drawn to using that peg. I. Is that a starting point for you? Is that usually. See the thing is. I get very easily bored by realism. Nice. I feel this. Enough to look at in.

[00:30:31] In life. Already. It. It doesn't excite me as much. Right. So I am. I. I like things which. Which would. Make me depressed. Like I don't know what to do. You know. I like. Lovely line for the trailer. We live with that. You're going to get a lot of traction. I can't watch anything. Because. Most darkest.

[00:31:01] I like it when there is. Lots of uncertainty. When I create something. And I don't know. I have absolutely no idea. What I'm going to do. So I like to be there. And. When I finish. Something. I feel like I've. Like crossed a bridge. And I like to take that. Big breath. Yes. And I think only. Mythology allows me to do that. Nothing else. As. It could be the limitation of my own mind. But right now.

[00:31:30] Only mythology allows me that. Atul. I think that. A lot of your work. And mine as well. I think that. Perhaps the influence of. The global time. That you spend. Is quite evident. In terms of the choices. That we make. Do you. Is that. Is that conscious. Is that. Is that something. That you're drawn more to say. International text. That then. Of late. And I have seen. Not of late actually. For a while.

[00:32:00] You do kind of. Re-contextualize it very well. There's a lot of adaptation. That happens. To make it very accessible. To us. And including. You know. Folk forms. And other things. But the root is. You know. There's Shakespeare. Or there's the West. And do you find that. That's something. That you are drawn towards. How does that work for you? I think it's. Yeah. I think I am drawn towards that. Accessibility. I think it could just be. Also laziness.

[00:32:29] To not pick up some texts. From. Marathi literature. Or Gujarati. Or Punjabi literature. There's so much. In India. Or literature from south. Right. Yeah. I think. Have you done that? Have you worked with original Indian texts? At any. We've done. We've done a few. Yes. We've done a few. I have directed a few. I've acted in a few. A few. We've also devised. Right. We've also done a lot of devising work. Like C4 Clown. Or the Blue Mug.

[00:32:59] Blue Mug is entirely. One of my most favourite productions of mine. I remember that. Yes. It's all about us. About memory and memory loss. But then again. It was inspired by a book. By Oliver Sacks. Right. The man who mistook his wife for a hat. But then we. But we took that trigger from there. And went straight in our own. Personal memories. And memory losses. So. Yeah. It's a. Yeah. It's not a conscious decision. But I. Frankly. I let myself. Float. Whatever comes my way. For the longest time.

[00:33:28] I've been. Wanting to work. With the sound of Sarangi. For example. Right. And the legend of Heer by Varish Shah. Oh. That's something. That I started with Nimrat actually. Oh. Okay. Yeah. And I told her. We'll keep it. When you stop being a film star. We'll pick it up again. Yeah. So things like that. There are many things. Which one has. My biggest dream project. I keep telling. Mantra is. Is addressing. Mahabharat. Which I think. Probably everybody.

[00:33:58] I'm hugely influenced by. Careers Mahabharat. Which Brooke did. I think it was a great interpretation. And I would. Yeah. Again. See. Sure. My first instinct is to go. Even for Mahabharat. No. Yeah. So. No. I do think that a lot of your. The work does kind of borrow heavily. Even from like Indian folk spaces. Yeah. I've seen you bring. Like there is a very Punjabiat to Bagiel Bele. Opia Bherupia. Which is. I grew up in. Yeah. In Mathura. In Vrindavan. With my great grandfather.

[00:34:27] Taking me to watch Raas. Right. I grew up performing in Ramdeela. Oh really? Wow. Okay. Okay. In North India. So yeah. The roots. I mean. I'm from old Delhi. I grew up around those areas of Chani Chowk and Kinari Bazaar and Nai Salak. So those first 20 years was just that. So those are the strongest formative years. We have something like a rapid fire section. But I'm not a very rapid person. Thank God. We call it slow burn. But before that.

[00:34:56] So we can take our own time. Yeah. As I will. But no. Before that. There's just one last kind of broad question that I want to kind of open to you all. Before we go into those specifics. Which is. Of course. I mean. Adi Shakti. Adi Shakti itself is a training space. And you all are doing a lot of this holistic work. But what is. According to you. And in all your travels around the country. What is the state of theater education in our country.

[00:35:25] And is there. Anything institute or course that you think is doing a good job. Where people can actually go and you know. Barring Adi Shakti of course. Because we will. I mean. We'll promote ourselves shamelessly. But what I'm saying. That is there. What are the avenues that are open to young theater people. Who might be looking to not just be born onto stage. And you know. Go and kind of get some work done. What is the state of theater education in our country. Actually.

[00:35:55] As it stands. One of my bachelor's studies. In NSD. And then he become an assistant professor. He shifted back to that institution. And whatever our collective dreams. Now he is pushing it back. Getting. And which institute is this? We call Trishud drama school. Okay. Trishud. Okay. So like. He is talking of Abhilash Pillai. Abhilash Pillai. Abhilash. Royston. We all. Yes. At the same time studied there. So he is. What he is making. Not a. Is not anymore a regional training institution.

[00:36:24] Rather he is looking at a. Pan Indian students to come. So students from all over the other states. Is going there. Oh lovely. This is the only word. There is a degree courses offered. All others are diploma. Okay. Okay. So that is point number one. But point. It is all. An institution is depend on. Who is heading it. Yes. And that person need to have a vision. And that vision need to go beyond themselves. We are lucky. You know. When that institution started. It is a dream of. A collective group of writers. Musicians. Filmmakers.

[00:36:55] And that is how they created that institution. It is not an. University made it. But at that. Who are the. Think tank of that time. And like award winning filmmakers. But back then it was Kerala centric. In Kerala centric. Okay. But they want to create a space where. All these forms. Like a theatre people. And cinema people. And painters can all comes together. And to talk about a performance. And that's. I think all institution starts like that. At the end of the day. Theatre is a practiced one. It is not a degree given place.

[00:37:24] You don't pump in practitioners. And if you look at it from an academic perspective. It goes into accord. So I can take loka. And give you a dissertation. And talk for next eight hours. Correct. But that's not going to make you a. Fantastic performer. It can be. Stimulate your academic intelligence. And I think most institutions. Problem is. You don't pump in practitioners. And that practitioner. May not have even a language. A linguistic language. To explain to you. But they have a form.

[00:37:52] Unless institution comes in. This diverse group of people. Then you are just. Offering an academic level of. Interest only. First we need to decide. What are you looking for. To get a job. Yes. Or to be a theatre person. To be a creator. Theatre can be learned in two ways. One. You can go to an institute. Or just go and grind and perform. Actually I think that it's a. It is eventually going to be led by the choice. Of what the person wants to achieve. Yeah. And yeah. Of course it's always up for debate. As to how much the academics.

[00:38:22] Is going to really help you. But exposure is always great. I mean. Even NSD. I've had people on the podcast. From NSD. Yeah. Who may not be very happy. With the state of affairs. There right now. But they said that in their time. There at least. What they were exposed. To change their life. Right. Just opening your mind. Like you were saying. You know. Being. You know. Receiving. So yeah. One point I just said. Like the problem with most of us. When we enter into a performance. We bring certain tools.

[00:38:52] That is part of our mannerism. Yes. And it's very appealing. Yes. The point is. How to break that in time. Right. And that's where. All this knowledge system come into. Otherwise what you. You become predictable. After a point. I know what you're going to do. Going to do. And you're less interesting to me. And that's why actors need to look at. Every possible. I'm saying. Don't restrict into any. Structured institution. Anything. Learn. Now. Earlier my. Preoccupation is to learn traditional. Forms. But now I'm doing. Learning something. That is completely opposite. From mathematics.

[00:39:22] To neurobiology. To like. He want to learn. Because we are talking to a spectator. Who are all this. You can't just. Artists can't be just. Talk about. Acting alone. And that's not going to. Expand your horizon. And their horizon means. You need to. Start learning. Anything. That is. Everything. That is available. That's also a good way of understanding. How as a performer. You can grow also. Again. It's one soon. Pursuit. As to what you want to really become. And.

[00:39:52] If you really want to become. A performer. That. That is also about. Making your body. A living archive. Of some sort. That would mean. That you know. You start at a point. And then. You're continuing to. Accumulate certain things. And. We are all. That archive. You know. We can pull. Things out. From our. Constant engagement. With multiple things. That we have done in the past. And what we do right now.

[00:40:21] So I think. A performer should be. A living archive. Wow. When we say archive. We feel. That it's a dead space. But I think. For a performer. It should be the other way around. Right. And I think. The aspiration should be. To become that. To become a part of. Many things. Yes. And. And I think. By doing that. By doing that. What it does. Is. We constantly talk about. You know. I become a character. And I am not.

[00:40:50] I am not a. Propagator of that. I don't. Or at least. It has not happened to me. Let me just say. That I have not become nothing. Even when I play a character. But there exists a possibility. That you can make the audience. Become something. Right. So the audience. Would become. The character. That you are playing. Beautiful. And. That is only possible. When you become that archive. So in the archival. Process. You are using. All your tools. In order to make the audience. Feel what you feel.

[00:41:20] Right. Otherwise. It is just a radio play. Wow. Right. So I feel. It really is about. What you want to become. Where your direction of your journey. You want to take. And for that. Apprenticeship. Is very good. You know. To surrender oneself. And say that. It is tough. To do right now. Because there are hundred things. That are happening. Just saying that. If I want to become a performer. I am just going to take out. That four years of my time.

[00:41:50] Right. And I follow something. And not get diverted. In hundred different things. Because that becomes like. You know. How you put coconut oil. When you put coconut oil. It just spreads on the skin. It doesn't go deep. But on the other hand. If you put sesame oil. It goes deep down. So I think. You have to become sesame oil. You have to just. Do one thing. And then find. You know. My loose will have problem. Yeah. And I think. I think. That's how. That's. So.

[00:42:20] The thing was. Can acting be learned. I think it can be learned. The craft can be learned. But what makes it tangible. Is your imagination. So imagination. I don't know. If you can learn it. Yeah. Anything to add to that? There is a lot happening. In Northeast. Now. I mean. If you look at all these. Major competitions. That happen. Of theater. Like Meta. And all. So much is coming. So much is coming. So much exciting work.

[00:42:50] I've been teaching. In NSD. Delhi. For some time. I teach them farce. Okay. And I'm noticing. That. After some of the most. Exciting teachers. Have actually shifted. To. In South India. NSD still has students. Who come. Who are very hungry. For knowledge. And they actually. Push teachers. They. They. They. They source teachers. They try and convince. The admin. To bring people in.

[00:43:19] So they. So they are hungry. For knowledge. And to learn. Not to forget. The drama school. Bombay. My goodness. Jehan. Has done. An amazing work. Creating this place. I mean. I. I have used. So many actors. Who have come out. Of DSM. Yes. But as you said. These are places. Where you can. Perhaps. Taste. A door can open up. For you. It's only a beginning. Then the journey. Is after that. Yours.

[00:43:48] I keep telling this. To students. Especially students. Who are coming out. Of DSM. And NSD. That please explore. Pro Helvetia. Please explore. Max Miller. British Council. French. Cultural Center. But. I mean. I mean. Travel around the world. And it's easier. Now. Which was much more difficult. Than. I think. When they're in their 20s. Early 30s. It's a time when. You can. I mean. If you look at. All these greats. Who I was influenced by. Be it. You know.

[00:44:18] Kavalam Niran Panikar. Ratanthiam Sahib. Or. Habib Sahib. They all had. A stint. Which was international. So there were influences. That were there. Of course. They found their own voice. Locally. When they came back here. But yeah. I think it's. It's something. It's something. That young can do. It's available now. Much more. Yeah. To just cap it all. There is also. Just so that people know. There are young theatre people.

[00:44:47] And we are sitting in a place. Which has like some. 50,000 theatre spaces now. Yes. I mean. Just look at this. And I was telling you. There's new theatres come up. There are so many places over here. That they're all house full. In the evening. Yes. In the daytime. There are studios. In the night. You might have a performance here. Where we are sitting right now. Is there one? Today? I think Mantra's booked. There is. I think the podcasters booked the place. Till the evening. So. We've killed one theatre performance. No. But the fact is that they're there.

[00:45:14] And Indian government has grants. That many people are not very aware of. And of course you have to go through some red tapers. I was surprised you said that with a straight face. Yes. No. Both Adi Shakti and the company theatre. We've been receiving government grants. And their public knowledge. And they're all on their website. And there are possibilities for young theatre makers. To create theatre spaces. You need to tap every resource as possible. These are all dream questions we asked. Yeah.

[00:45:44] Now sustainability is something. This is a very romantic concept of learning anything. How to sustain is a beast altogether. Yes. So that will be doing next podcast. That's the next topic. I'll move to our slow burn section. We'll have very few questions there. And then we'll see if there are any questions from the audience that are here. Very simple questions for each one of you to answer. The first one is that not your own work.

[00:46:13] But a recent Indian production that you have watched in the theatre. That you have really liked. Something you have watched. The last good Indian play that you saw. Which you did not produce yourself. I know that's tough. No it's not. Not at all. I'll tell you. Please. Because they're thinking. Two for me actually. Because one got to see them recently. One is Mezok by Jyoti Dogra. Yes.

[00:46:41] It was immensely stunning performance. And the other is Mohit's new play that he's done with Nether. Yes. Both absolutely stunning performances for me. Lovely. I think last year I watched the show from Kattai Kuta. Which is not Kattai Kuta. The show from Palani's show. Which is about Abhimanyu.

[00:47:08] Abhimanyu trying to come out of the Chakraview. Chakraview. Yeah. And it was mind blowing. It was mind blowing. I was so happy and exhilarated. And I very rarely give up food for anything. And I couldn't eat. I was so full. I was. And it just. It stayed with me. I recently means like. Within one year there's a play called Molagapodi. It's called Chili Powder. Yeah.

[00:47:37] It's done by a group of trans women. It's one of the kick-ass play. I saw it on orientation play. Gender play. It's. Last year they performed it. And some of the actors shipped it. But it's amazing. This was in what language? Tamil only. Tamil only. But with lots of songs. And that play's energy is like a zap to me. The way they've done it. I hope they will revive that play. We requested last year for them to. Where are they from?

[00:48:06] Chennai only. Chennai. The director called Mangai is there. My next question for you all. You'll have had. All of you have actually had an opportunity to perform your work all over the world. You'll have all. You know within India of course you've travelled a lot. But internationally also you have travelled a lot. And at the risk of ending some of our venues. What has been your favourite venue in the world to perform at? And why? Prudhvi Theatre.

[00:48:38] I don't know. I just love that space. I think it does something to me. And that thing that I constantly feel. And I think I have talked about this. I think Prudhvi helps you to be with the audience. And you know become very aware of the fact that everybody is holding a space together. Right. It doesn't feel like there is an audience and you are performing. It feels like. It's like a community activity in that sense. Yes.

[00:49:08] And also the way it feels like the audience is also holding you. Nice. And I am a very nervous performer. I constantly feel I will have a heart attack. I will never get to the stage. And this is what I feel constantly. That I will never be able to get myself up there. I will have a heart attack. See what you have to do. So I think it gives me immense comfort to be in Prudhvi. Because it feels like there is an arm around you. When somebody hugs you like that. It feels that way. She's so happy.

[00:49:38] All over the world she chose Prudhvi. She's a big one. Unfortunately I also say that same thing. Prudhvi. Yeah. Because it has a history. Three ways it is. One is my early performative career. We used to perform in Pimbal Land, open spaces, streets, everything. And it's not a structured space. And my first performance is what I have done outside Kerala is Prudhvi. That's one. And the rest is earlier Vinapani used to be the manager of Prudhvi. First manager I think.

[00:50:07] First manager of Prudhvi. Running for three years. And you heard about folklore. Is all folklore. Prudhi related folklore. Because India we didn't have a space where all kinds of artists meet. It's ideally what you call French theatre movement. You have cafes where people come and sit and discuss. Talk about it. We didn't have a space. Or I never seen it in my life. That kind of space. And that's what I witnessed at that time.

[00:50:33] And before my generation the folklore is Prahlath Kakar is cooking in the spring. Neena Gupta is doing the odd jobs to get this. So what you see is a dream space for all people to come together. So I think in a way that is influenced. But as a performative space it's a very secure place. As an actor. Like you can fine tune and fine balance a lot of your faculty. You don't need to push your voice too much.

[00:50:59] So you can concentrate that much energy onto some of the other detailing you want to do it. And that's what space need to do. Otherwise if I don't have a space five more feet away means my entire anatomic biological clock is pushing for that vocal code. Rather by doing depleting 20% of my details. So in a way that is one space I really. It is a venue that spoils you completely. And it's not too cold. Oh my god. I don't think they understand women's temperature.

[00:51:27] What I understand when she complained. There is a study that would say that all AC's temperature is male centric. Because female body always feel 10% less than that. So I love every space that comes up or comes. Because that's how an Indian theatre maker do. They make it possible whatever space they get it into the best space in the world. That's how theatre survived in India. We have a very very limited. We have the best foyer in the world.

[00:51:57] And shit all backstage. That's how Indian theatre construction is. So thanks to all the practitioners. Who made their space lovable. We have like I seen it actors going to some places. And they themselves need to sweep and create the space to perform. But we still do that. Right. You love that space. Are there any partiality for the globe? Yeah. No, no. It's a ridiculous place. I mean globe is not a yardstick frankly. We'll use that in our emotions.

[00:52:27] Yeah, please. But I will talk to you about one very exciting space we performed in. Right. Which was also quite lousy actually. But it is also something that we hold very closely in our memory. And he's sitting here. Mantra we all performed there. Was a bullfighting rink in Chile. Yes. Yeah. I think you can just have spoken about it. My goodness. So we had an audience of about 5,000 people. I think that was it.

[00:52:54] We decided that day we have to either become a footballer or a rock star to get this kind of audience back. The whole town came to see the show. And there were of course massive screens put up. This is for P.A. Bheh Rupiah. Yes. So we could song and dance. And the audience started coming in. I remember. And they kept coming in. And they kept coming in. For half an hour they're still coming in. One hour they were still coming in. It was a bullfighting rink. All got filled up. We were taken in a bus.

[00:53:25] So our green room was somewhere else. And then we all got ready. And then a bus. We made an entry onto the stage. And we thought because they had put some chairs. Some about 200 chairs in front as well. In the arena. Yes. And where the stage was built. What we did not know was that this will get filled up. So when we came in and we saw those many people. I think it was just we were overwhelmed. And I think all of us started. We were all in tears.

[00:53:52] Because it was like retribution for all those empty seats in Prithvi Theatre. Where we did all our UNESCO's and Jhanes. And nobody came to see. To suddenly have 5000 people sitting watching PR. It was crazy. Lovely. Thank you. Thank you. We will open up this to any questions from the audience. Are there any? Hello sir. Hello ma'am. My question is. Is it important to read theatre books or acting books? If yes. Then please recommend few books. No.

[00:54:22] Again. Reading a book is very important. Because what you need to understand is. When every book you read. You are creating a visual stimuli. Within your brains. And within your cortex and cognitive fields. And that is your own visual. Nobody else can create it. Okay. And. You live in a time where visuals are offered to you. Every story has a visual in public domain.

[00:54:51] And you start stopping. Stop doing creating your visual script. I am connecting this to the fundamental. We all talk about imagination. The moment you don't charge or stimulate your. Or simulate your visual script. You stop doing your imagination. Because every permutation of what you need to enact. Is there available. In one actor or another actor. You cut and paste it. So. If you are thinking about imaginatively. Or creating an imagination. Reading is an absolute. But I just say that.

[00:55:20] Don't read theatre books. More than any theatre books. I may be got my entire universe. Is from Asterix and Oblix. That's true. It's my formative years. Is what Oblix is created. Or like a. Or the dogmatics have much more character. Because. If you read. The first Asterix. You will never see dogmatics. At the end you see Oblix is picking up. And then you go back. And you see every frame in corner. Dogmatics is following it. Suddenly it created. And this is a nightmare. When I talk about visual script.

[00:55:50] Most of the time. When you translate novels. Most of the time it fails. Because the common visual imagery. May not sin. So. For me reading is very important. As much as read. But don't need to read. In a restricted manner. Anything. If nothing is the just. Chanda Mama will work. I'm sorry. Somebody said Chanda Mama. Vikram and Vedal is the first Christopher Nolan movie. I think what really stimulates me is poetry.

[00:56:18] I think they have this immense quality. To contain human experience in few words. And I find that immensely powerful. So like Vinay said. Don't restrict yourself to one thing. I think anything. Anything that you can lay your hand on. But I think you know.

[00:56:48] When words fail you. Is when really theater is born. Because you have. You can't depend on your words. In order to tell something. So you have to use other faculties. And that's what word did to me. So I wouldn't. Would say that. You know. Restrict yourself to one thing. Anything that you can lay your hand on. And I think. A fine balance of fiction and non-fiction. Is what I would go for. And music. You know. That we really struggle. That in one hour.

[00:57:18] To get the audience to an elevated state. And musicians just need to open their mouth. In two seconds. They have them there. Best. Any more questions? Yes. I want to ask. Will the. Working. Will it work. That person is working on a body and mind. Like yoga and meditation. Practice. Will that practice help someone to adapt. The craft easily? There's no guarantee. Ma'am. That.

[00:57:47] A person might. Go and live in Adi Shakti. For the next 50 years. Might not be able to. Say a word. Or step on stage. There's no guarantee. That a person who's done yoga. All his life. Is in touch with his. Chakras. You know. Is able to control his breath. Or have. That will. Definitely become an actor. There's no guarantee about that. The point is like. These are all. Fulcrum outside structures. And then what we need to understand. The fallacy.

[00:58:15] And the vulnerability of human emotion. Human emotion becomes civil. Because we fundamentally created. Certain tools like rational. Analytical. Free thinking. But at the. Moment of any human physical body. Experiencing an emotion. None of these faculties work. Cognitively there is a blank space. You understand. So that's the vulnerability. Otherwise I can be. I'm teaching human emotion for last 30 years. Doesn't mean that.

[00:58:46] I'll be a. Controlling factor on. I can understand. But that doesn't mean that. I don't have the same emotion. Well thank you. That's all we have time for. This was an absolutely. Wonderful conversation. Thank you. I think that just listening to you guys. Has opened my mind a little bit. So. I think that was a very successful conversation. I wish we could talk longer. And I think. We will offline. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for being here. This was absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you Adiam. Thank you. Thank you Akash.

[00:59:16] Thank you. Thank you.