244: Can Devotion Drive Digital Innovation? | Prashant Sachan (Co-founder, Apps for Bharat)

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You run an amazing business, very very interesting.

[00:00:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So Shri Mandir App today has roughly 3 crore installs.

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_00]: 3 million people use it every single month.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you go from 0 to like 10,000 downloads after that?

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Growth was not the first objective.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_00]: The first objective was can we find a usage that people will relate with?

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said but why?

[00:00:18] [SPEAKER_00]: He said, Punni Milka.

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing!

[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So Shani Shingnapur Mandir is the most popular Shani Mandir in India.

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: On Shani Jayanti, they said 1.5 lakh to 2 lakh people would have visited them.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: 30,000 people participated online.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: When I first launched the Shri Mandir App.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Startup Operator podcast.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I am Roshan Kariyappa.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: On this episode we have Prashanth Sachan who is the co-founder of Apps for Bharat

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a very unique business.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They have an app called Shri Mandir on the app and Play stores

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that has more than 3.5 crore downloads.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And in this episode, I talked to Prashanth about building an app-led business.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The growth, the engagement, monetization and the various nuances in all of this.

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Prashanth is an experienced tinkerer.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been building for the last 10 years.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was in fact the co-founder of Trel, which is a social commerce company just a while back.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So we discussed how do you execute in a fragmented space?

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you bake in user delight at scale?

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you build a strong moat for your business?

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So on and so forth.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This was a fascinating conversation and I'm sure you like it.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's get started.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey Prashanth, welcome to the Startup Operator podcast.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for making the time.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely, thank you.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Good to be here.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You run an amazing business.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Very very interesting, very unconventional.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Not something that we encounter every day.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are many facets of the business itself

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and your journey that I want to dig deep into

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and uncover some insights for our audience today.

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But something that struck me is that you've been a tinkerer,

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: builder for the last eight or nine years.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You've built and shipped many different apps and so on.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We have an audience that is obviously interested in entrepreneurship,

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: being a founder, starting a startup, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So from all of these different journeys that you've had

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: from the apps, projects and startups that you've built,

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: what are two or three ways that someone listening to this

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: can get started and build something significant?

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: First of all, thank you.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: See I think when you are thinking of starting something,

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are two ways you can do it.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: One way is there is some action in the space

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and you feel it's an interesting opportunity as a capitalist

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: to go and build in the category and maybe make some monies.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Capture some of that.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Capture some of that.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You may or may not relate with the problem statement.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a business case and you go and build

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: for that business case and so on.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_00]: There's another set of thing that one can do,

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: which is you feel that there is something

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: that needs to be solved.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a larger sense of purpose

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and there could be, could not be companies

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: in the same space that you can look at and so on.

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's more of a first principle way

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: of solving a problem statement that you strongly feel about

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that you have come across and so on.

[00:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So these are two approaches.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what's very, very important

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in this whole journey is as you go on to build it,

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I personally feel that if that drive is there,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that hey, there is a problem statement

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: or there's a user whose life you'd want to make easy

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and whatnot, you can approach it structurally I would say.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say instead of thinking a lot about,

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, my solution would be this, that

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and in any of these cases, right?

[00:04:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I would, so in cases where you don't have parallels,

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: what I would recommend to people is try to start

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: somewhere and once you start somewhere,

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_00]: run a few experiments, I think data

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and customer feedback guides your way.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So anyone who is listening to this

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: as has been thinking about something

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and I would say carve out a small budget,

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_00]: put together a team of friends,

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_00]: put a small prototype, code, no code, all is okay.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think once you put something out

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and once you hear from people who could be using it,

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the biggest learning

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that could take you either way.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It could motivate you to go deeper

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_00]: or it could be like, hey, doesn't make sense for me,

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: let me try something else.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I honestly am someone who can tell

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: from my own experience, for example.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is 2020 and I was exiting

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: from my previous startup and I thought

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that hey, I should go and continue building

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm someone who always has had this ambition

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_00]: of building something for the masses.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel if in this lifetime

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I could build something which has

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_00]: a population scale impact,

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that would be a fair accomplishment, I would say.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I started thinking about

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: what should I go on and build,

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking of the space

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: in the problem statement that I should go after.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, I took a slightly structured approach.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, hey, what are the problem statements

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00]: or what are the user behaviors, not problem statements,

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that were existing offline

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and have not really moved online fully yet?

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was tinkering on many ideas

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and I actually come from this small village near Kanpur

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and I myself have grown in a family

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: which is fairly religious.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was like, devotion is one very deep need

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: that offers hope, mental reinforcement to people.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, it is worth attempting

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: because when you look across,

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: at that point in time, this is 2020,

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: there were many apps on the Play Store

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think the Indian consumer who had that need

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: deserved a lot better.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, if I can put together a good team

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe go in deeper and try to figure something out,

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_00]: it could lead me somewhere.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So I thought devotion should be moved online

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: like every other category has

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and I then started experimenting.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So instead of, no, when you,

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_00]: so often I feel, Roshan,

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: when you think of it as a person

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: who is an analyst, for example,

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you could think, hey,

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you could come up with hundreds of ideas

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: on what could be built in devotion, right?

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I did not get caught at that particular point in time.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I was able to filter a few ideas

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: based on certain frameworks

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and the frameworks was whatever app I'm building

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: has to have certain frequency

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I looked at the offline behaviors,

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_00]: structured them and said that,

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, these are some of the key offline behaviors

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that I can solve for

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and I ran few experiments

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and those experiments gave me the answer.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and NetNet, if you think about this,

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it would be an investment of 8, 10 lakhs in total

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to figure out the initial answer.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say,

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: if I were to do it again,

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I would again follow the same approach.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think-

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a great starting point

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to find a good idea, right?

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: What is happening offline that can be digitized?

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Any other sort of domains or directions

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in which you can find great ideas?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Paul Graham has this whole essay on

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: how to find good ideas for your startup,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: but any other that you've encountered?

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_00]: See, I learned something about company building.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it would be my-

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: So I graduated in 2014

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and this is my 10th year.

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It has almost been a decade

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: since I've been trying to build something.

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel when I was building my previous company,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I started that in 2016.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought in three, four years I'll get lucky.

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll build something that will scale

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and will either sell or I will be profitable, whatever.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Every founder thinks that way.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What I realized was,

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: company building is a really, really long game.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And unless and until that drive is not there

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and drive could be anything,

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: the drive could also be just money.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel that purpose, that drive is important.

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And hence, I personally would not pick an idea

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that I'm not personally passionate about

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: because I feel there's a short, short chance

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_00]: of creating an outcome which is go and play the long game,

[00:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: keep solving it with a lot of intent and drive.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And if the direction is right, approach is right,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you may end up somewhere.

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a high probability.

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would rather pick something

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_00]: on which I can play the long game

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: where I'm personally having that connect

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_00]: or sense of purpose and whatnot.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would go on and build in such cases, I would say.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course there are many other ways

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can identify an idea.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You could look at the current trends,

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you could look at...

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is one, you can look at trends

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: on what's happening in India, in a certain sector,

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_00]: find out categories or parallels

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and see what you can do there.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And that approach could be,

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you see what's happening in China,

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what's happening in US.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a localization opportunity?

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can play on many arbitrages for example.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say I can build something similar

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: at a cheaper price,

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I have cost advantage and whatnot.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So there are many approaches.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm of the camp where I would say that

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: unless and until you don't strongly connect

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: with something, you don't have that drive fizzing.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: If the drive fizzes out midway,

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_00]: it's even more painful, I would say.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would rather choose something

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: which I feel I can give my 10, 20, 30 years

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and maybe happily retire.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I would rather choose that kind of problem

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and statement I would say.

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think that's a fantastic point.

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean you definitely have to relate

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to the idea that you're working on

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: because A, it's always harder than you think it is.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to persevere

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and if you don't have the juice

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to kind of persevere,

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean you will give up for sure.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, and B, I think entrepreneurship itself

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: is such an odd pursuit in a way.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean there are plenty of easier ways to make money.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Like probabilistically speaking.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you are gonna devote 10 years

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of your life to something,

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but I might as well pick something

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're kind of passionate about.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing that I've been toying with

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: is the fact that an idea is not an app

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and an app is not a startup.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Not all ideas are meant to be apps

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and not all apps are meant to be startups.

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're perhaps in college

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: or just out and you are tinkering,

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: does it make sense to think of something

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: as just a project and let's try it out

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and see where it goes kind of?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Or do you think that someone has to have

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that foresight to say that I'm gonna build

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of a business and then work backwards.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Which one do you think you would suggest?

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: See, I think it depends on

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: where you are in life.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_00]: For example, if I'm a college student

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm thinking about maybe building an app

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and just test it out.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel these are all great learnings

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and these all great learnings of building something,

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: see how it works,

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: trying to acquire your first thousand users,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: see it not work out or see it work out.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: All of these learnings stack up

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and these learnings are rare.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: No books, no podcast can teach you that.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: No jobs will teach you that.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly, when you build something,

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_00]: when you ship it out and you see

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: why is no one using it?

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And when you scratch your head and you-

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm familiar with that feeling.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no I'm serious.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: When you start thinking about that,

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, I built something and you feel the whole,

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: so often what happens is when you think

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm talking about a young college grad

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and you put something out and you're like,

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, let me build this

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and I feel it's a crazy idea.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel the whole world should use it.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It is the next whatever.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: We put it out and you'll feel that,

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, why are people coming on just the login page

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and not logging in?

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: When they log in,

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: why they do few actions and exit the app and install?

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And that data or that customer feedback

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: hits you so hard on the face

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that when you rebound,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: these are step changes in your life I would say.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You then learn things and see,

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel there are many ways of learning.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: There's one interesting way.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say if your people,

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: the audience who is listening to this,

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_00]: if you are, it's fine if you are not getting

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: a business idea which you think is going to change things.

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There are two ways of building it,

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: bottom up and top down for example.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about bottom up.

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I have an idea, I test it out.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Those learnings will stack up and when they,

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and when you will use those learnings

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to do the next iteration and next iteration

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: or maybe try a new category altogether,

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll use all of those learnings which are,

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_00]: which is your mode,

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: which is your mode as a founder

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: because you have seen and,

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_00]: which is your intellectual mode I would say.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the approach, other approach,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: see I think it's,

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_00]: so there are many examples in our case, right?

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Where we have seen both the models work out.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: In some case someone starts saying that,

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, this is an interesting category.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Things very top down, things of the business

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and product plays a small part in that

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's a lot of enablement around the product

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that happens.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Such businesses are there

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: and then there are certain businesses

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: where you pick an app,

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that app goes on and become large

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then they go and transcend into becoming a business.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think either of the approaches are fine.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: What I would suggest is,

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: the answer lies in a lot of attempts

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and iterations and failures

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and those learnings are learnings of a lifetime

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things that we look at

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is like the type of founders we host

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and the kind of businesses they run.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing is that a significant number

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of founders we've hosted,

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe 30% or more,

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I would say close out of 50%

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: are all second time, third time founders.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not the first instant ad starting up.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And the second thing that we've noticed

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is that more than 80% of them

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: are not working on the first iteration of that idea.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: They went into market with a hypothesis,

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: they've pivoted to something else.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is amazing.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm the classic,

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: God's burned by consumer internet

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and pivoted to ended up in SaaS kind of guy.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of the conversation today

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is gonna be about building a successful

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: app led business as such.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So you've been building multiple of these apps

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on, right?

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some similarities you've noticed

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: among the more successful apps?

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what are like two or three things

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: that you notice among the guys

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: who really hit it out of the park?

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_00]: See, I think if you have,

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I would rather answer it in a certain way.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, you have a certain thesis.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: The question that you are asking is,

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: how do you validate whether this idea is working or not?

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And here's the process that I follow.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel there are many signals that you can use.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But the first signal is,

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: is there a small set of people

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: amongst the set of people that you might have

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: gotten on your platform to try it?

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Do they find some value?

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there some delight?

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And is the delight deep enough?

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's the first question

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that I always try to,

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and if it is consumer app,

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not talking about SaaS.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just talking about consumer apps essentially.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: If you put any consumer app,

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: it could be engagement led,

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it could be utilitarian,

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: it could be some transactional app and whatnot.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But does it solve a certain use case or a need?

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And does it create that vow or delight

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_00]: in the minds of the user?

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And if it does,

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_00]: what we need to understand is how deep is that delight?

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think the first set of answers lie there.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_00]: When I first launched the Srimanthi Rapth,

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so Srimanthi Rapth today has roughly three crore installs.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Almost three million people use it every single month.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Lot of people from the Indian diaspora

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: are using the platform right now.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And this app was,

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: this company was launched in December 2020.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So it has been, I would say three years,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_00]: around three years since this app has been into existence.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And the kind of, when we first shipped it right,

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I was telling you about the four ideas that I shipped.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: The Srimanthi Rapth essentially was one of the four ideas

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: where the first one that I thought of building

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: this category was,

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought people want devotional literature in one place,

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: can I curate and aggregate information in one place?

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Second one was a music app,

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: where devotional music app essentially.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Third one was a Gita and Panjang sort of mix.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And the fourth one was a digital shrine on your phone

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and I wanted people to use it in certain way and whatnot.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, what I first observed was whoever is using the app

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and the way we acquired the users was

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: we started running Facebook ads,

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: put 2000 rupees on marketing

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and launched these apps subsequently,

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean subsequently, I would say one after another.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And what we were observing was

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what is the kind of feedback

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: that people are giving about these products?

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: The fourth app, the Srimanthi Rapth

[00:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: had a very, very deep user vow

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and the feedback was very profound.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Before this, you built all of these four apps,

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: based on this hypothesis, you built all of them?

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So you didn't try the classic,

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: have a landing page, see how many signups,

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on and so forth?

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's like this, for us,

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: had I had an answer around what should I build

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and what's a parallel that I could follow?

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We did not know what will work

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and we did not know what's the need

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_00]: that could become a key hook.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll maybe give you a background

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: on how did we approach this?

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We realized that devotion is a very, very deep category.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Lot of people want these information

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: or access to services and whatnot.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But we realized, we were like,

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, the biggest problem is trust problem.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_00]: People first need to trust a platform and so on

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and we also did not have firsthand insights

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_00]: on what these people will pay for

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and whatever they pay for is very fragmented.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: They would pay for 10 things across a year.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So hence, we said,

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the first thing that we should do

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: is we should gather people online

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and say if people can be gathered online,

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_00]: will they retain and then test from that particular base

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and see what can be built next?

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first thesis was,

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: what can I build where people gather online

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and demonstrate a high frequency usage

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and we understand from that particular usage

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: on what they would need later

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and then transcend into from an idea to an app,

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: an app to a business and so on.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Reach, engagement, monetization.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So, hence we said that let's just try these initial ideas

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: where we feel that we can drive engagement

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and gather people online.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And when we tried these four ideas,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the first thing I chased, like I told you,

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: was this user wow.

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I was reading these reviews,

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I realized that for the Srimandir app,

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: people were saying great things about the app.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_00]: They're saying, hey, thank you so much for making it

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was many lines of comments about the app

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_00]: which I thought were very profound and deep

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was my first moment.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Second moment was is what I think-

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I think at this point,

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that the app is rated 4.5.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Still, at your scale.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: No, yeah, so I think it was 4.8-ish.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: No, which is pretty phenomenal is what I'm saying.

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, but I feel 4.5 is bad.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I keep on telling my team.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it should be back on 4.8.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_00]: There were certain systems that we had built

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: regarding our gamification

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: which were not working on certain days

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the people got pissed.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, hey, it's not working and whatnot.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_00]: We lost some rating there and so on.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It should get back to 4.7, 4.8.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean earlier we used to shoot for just about a four

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of rating.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, this is a new benchmark.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, sure.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's there.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the second thing I call is a recall test.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Whoever is using the app in these early days

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and you don't have much budget for marketing,

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: you get a user

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and call them after a couple of days

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: and see do they remember?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Do they remember the usage?

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever you marketed and whatever they perceived,

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_00]: is that in sync?

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the initial test.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The second initial test which will give you some sense

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: on whether it's landing or not.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The third part is what I will call as

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_00]: is there a set of people

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_00]: which demonstrate very high quality early retention

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00]: which is where do you see something

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_00]: where people are coming back

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: on this particular app regularly?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: There is a certain segment

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_00]: which is finding that usage and whatnot.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And if some of these things align,

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you might, and these are the qualifiers

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: for you to go to the next step.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, the other three apps we sort of disqualified

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_00]: because they did not stand out

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: on some of these parameters,

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_00]: this particular update

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and hence we took that out

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and we continued building on top of it.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Just to tell you, right?

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that this app was fairly gimmicky

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_00]: because when you are living in a

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Kormangala Indiranagar

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and you are amongst the top two million

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_00]: tech professionals,

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you start thinking a certain way

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: that hey this is how people would use products

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and whatnot.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But from that whole journey, right?

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, hey,

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_00]: aggregation of literature might work

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but why would this work?

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And the feedback surprised me.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: People said that hey, this is smooth experience.

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Darshan is important for me.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I come through this app

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and I connect with my God,

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I check in and that was a use case

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_00]: which is like, wow, this is interesting

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: because I never thought it that way.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And it took me by surprise

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: but I thought that this user cares about the product

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and then I kept on chasing

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_00]: what all things they kept on asking me to build ad

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's how my journey started.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean so when I logged into the app as well,

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it was a little bit of a different experience

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: which I mentioned as well

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: because I am of course used to doing the, you know,

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: the puja in person, right?

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was pleasantly surprised when I clicked something

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then there was, you know,

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: bunch of marigold flowers fell on Ganeshji, right?

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So certainly interesting, right?

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, so I come from the SaaS world

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: where you know where your next million

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: or the next 10 million is gonna come from, right?

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a finite list of prospects

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and you figure ways to get to the next 100, right?

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't need millions of customers, right?

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of the things that, you know,

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: people generally find intimidating

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: about building a consumer internet business is that,

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: A, the fact that you may need tens of thousands

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_01]: or millions of users.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: B, you have no idea where the next batch of folks

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: are gonna come and see like why they're gonna stay

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and why they're gonna leave, right?

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So many of these things

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_01]: are such ambiguous questions, right?

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about your growth levers.

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you did your test on Facebook ads and so on.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, clearly something was working.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You spoke to a bunch of people.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you go from zero to like 10,000 downloads after that

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the next order of magnitude?

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I think we were very clear about our priorities.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So we realized that we have limited set of people

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and growth was not the first objective.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The first objective was,

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: can we find a usage that people will relate with?

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: What is that user story?

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: What is it that people will relate with?

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll keep using it and so on.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So the question for us was,

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what should we build which people will appreciate?

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So hence we said, we'll forget the part around growth

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and we'll offset that growth part

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to let's say our basic performance marketing

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: where we'll get users with a certain proposition

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and then we would want to evolve the user journey

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_00]: and just keep going deeper on the user journey

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and see where it takes us and whatnot.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first 10,000 installs were mostly paid.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What we also started seeing was

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: people who were loving the platform,

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00]: they were actually inviting more people.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: So we started seeing,

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_00]: it started with 20, 30% people inviting more people

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and that number grew over time.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_00]: 40, 45% of the installs became organic

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_00]: without us doing anything.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It was a function of user feedback, user love,

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: people sharing the app with other people saying

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: you should try it and whatnot.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But what we essentially focused on was

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: when people come on the platform,

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: what is that,

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00]: what was that acquisition story?

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is, what did I tell them?

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I told them there's a content platform

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can get darshan, literature, music,

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: bunch of things I told them.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then with that story which was broad,

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to see what does the activation story look like?

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So when people come on this,

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: does the acquisition story and activation story match?

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: What do people relate with?

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: What do they try?

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And when that activation story plays out,

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_00]: by activation I would mean that some of the key hooks

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_00]: that we thought might have worked,

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: how do people engage with those key hooks?

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And once they do that,

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to understand

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_00]: what does the initial engagement look like?

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: My initial engagement would be

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: why would they open the app the second time,

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_00]: third time, fourth time?

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And then mid-scale engagement I would say,

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_00]: which is why would they open the app the seventh day,

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_00]: 10th day, 15th day?

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: What's that reason?

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And just that particular funnel we kept solving.

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, why should you install the app?

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay fair, you installed the app,

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_00]: now you come on the platform.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: How do you engage with my key hooks?

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And my key hooks were

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_00]: you come and engage with Digital Temple

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: or read some literature, panchang,

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: or engage with content and whatnot.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: That was my key hooks.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I wanted to figure out enough reasons

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: where you should keep coming back.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say that was the part

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that we were extremely, extremely obsessed about.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And because we knew if we are able to solve that,

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what we'll have is this rich information and data

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that will actually help us take this company forward.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Because what we did not know Roshan then was

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: who these users are,

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: what they'll pay for,

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and so on.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Because the obvious answers for all of these things

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: would be people, when you think of devotion,

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: will say, sell agarbattis.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Or you say that hey, donation is the answer.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But those are not the best of the answers.

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_00]: There are enough number of ways

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: where you can build a very meaningful business.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Where you can provide access and convenience to people,

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: be it information, be it services,

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever you can provide them.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So we were like, can we find a deeper answer

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: to what are the pain points that we can solve

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and start with this, I would say cookie

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that we give to the user that hey, use this cookie

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and be on the platform and keep using it.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I would want to understand from you

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: what all you would need from me

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so that I can build it over a period of time.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And then going deeper on the journey.

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, because we did not have benchmarks,

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that process sort of we had to follow

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because we could not copy from anywhere.

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And so hence the question for us was not that,

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_00]: how would I get the first 10,000 installs

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: or one lakh installs?

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I segregated the two parts.

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I said, I would want to first find a proposition

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: where people come and engage,

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_00]: where people come and pray online.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: When they come and pray online,

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_00]: do they come repeatedly?

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And when they come repeatedly,

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I would want to understand from them,

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: can I build something for them

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: which complements this journey

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_00]: and they'll pay for this.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So for the longest time,

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_00]: the growth was something that

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: was something that we did not actively solve.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_00]: We solved for the engagement levers,

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_00]: engagement loops and now the economic engine.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are in this phase now

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_00]: where we are going to hyper this, hyperscale this.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the method that we followed.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And it sort of worked for us

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the kind of business we were in

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_00]: or a kind of problem statement we're solving for.

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing, right?

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, because it's fascinating to me

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that you focus more on the engagement and retention

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and not so much on the acquisition side of things.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you famously, I mean,

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know about these growth loops

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on and so forth.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: The idea is to decrease the CAC as much as possible

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and then increase the time spent on the app.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And people look at all these quantitative sort of metrics

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and get very happy about things and so on.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But so your idea was like,

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: okay, even if I have 10,000 people,

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to really understand

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: why people are engaging

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and what is that next hook and hook and hook after that.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So think about this, right?

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_00]: What's my ticket to win?

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: My ticket to win is

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: if this category were to be built, right,

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_00]: entrepreneurs 10 years back would have built this.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I was understanding there's something fundamentally

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_00]: not available about when it comes to insights,

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: when it comes to learnings

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: about this particular category, this particular market.

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And my journey will be far more rewarding

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: if I'm able to build that understanding.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that understanding, that learning as a team

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: was the first and foremost goal that we had

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: that is there something that we understand

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: about this user, which no one else does,

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: which is not documented anywhere

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and build that knowledge base.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we were in it for the long game

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and that was the approach we followed.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I'm guessing that you're looking

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: at a bunch of these quantifiable and qualitative,

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: both quantitative and qualitative metrics.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, now reading from this data,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: abstracting the insights that are actually useful for you

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: is an art and a science by itself.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Because in India, I mean, if you ask 10 people,

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: they'll have 12 opinions about something.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So how do you sort of, is there a method to that?

[00:30:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, I think there are both the ways

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: of understanding this.

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me just, so it depends on what are you solving for.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So we realize that certain use case

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_00]: demonstrate better retention.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we realize that the literature

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is a once in two weeks sort of use case

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: because you might need it on important theses or dates,

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but you might not consume daily.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You might consume daily,

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but you might be a different persona,

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_00]: which is slightly elderly, has a lot of time with them

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and would want to engage and read daily.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And because Hinduism is a very non-regime faith.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: So usually, you know, people across the regions,

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: across ages, practice in different ways,

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_00]: depending on how much time do they have.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They're a different sampradaya.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly. Yes.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So for us, what was very, very important

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_00]: in all of this was, you know,

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: how do we thoroughly understand

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: that what are the patterns here

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and then build on those particular patterns.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we realize that if a user

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: does a certain action,

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: his likelihood of returning on a weekly basis is this much.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_00]: If a user does a combination of certain actions,

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_00]: we were able to understand that this user

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_00]: is likely to come back four to five times a week.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And from those patterns, I'll give you an example, right?

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So one method to identify what we should build

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_00]: also came from this

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: where we build these normal engagement hooks.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And one of the user was something

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: who was anyway opening the app every single day.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We were looking at this whole LNS data,

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_00]: where what you do is you plot number of people

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: who come on just one day in a month,

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: the number of people who come on seven days

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: or three days, four days and so on.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And the number of people

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: who would come on every day of the month.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So we were looking at people

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: who come on every day of the month.

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point in time,

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the number of people who are coming every single day

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: was roughly 8-10% of the MAU,

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: which is of 100k people who are there on the platform.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: 10,000 people are using it every single day.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I thought, let me just understand,

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: what is it that they are liking in the app,

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: which is making them come every single day.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was talking to a user on the phone

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and this user said that,

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, I do this.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And he gave his reasons.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said, but why?

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He said,

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Punni milta hai.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So we can call it like good date points.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're like, interesting.

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is before you guys launched the points and so on.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this is before.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Punni milta hai.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And this user was like,

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, Punni milta hai.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we were like,

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_00]: what if we give you this Punni milta hai?

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_00]: He's like, I would love it.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So we said, let me just put these coins

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: as XP points equivalent,

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: where as you engage,

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_00]: we just keep on getting these coins.

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So you gamified the whole thing.

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_00]: We gamified the whole thing.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was, see the point being,

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: what we have to understand is this,

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_00]: every faith is gamified.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Every faith is gamified.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also, gamification is an interesting way

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to make people keep moving forward

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: because we like that.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So in Hinduism particularly,

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: you do a lot of good things

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_00]: because you keep on gathering these karma points,

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And these karma points are essentially

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_00]: this currency in your bank,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: which will give you massive rewards

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in terms of good things happening to you and whatnot.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And next life you're born as a...

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's not just about next life.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's also about, if you are a good person,

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00]: you would assume that good things

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: will keep happening to you.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, of course.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So we said, let's just incorporate these karma points

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or Punni mudra points on the app.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And we saw the opposite behavior

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_00]: of the people actually increased.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They loved collating it.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And those points did not have any meaning.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: There was no meaning to those points.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And, but they still kept on collecting it.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And we realized that these are just simple insights.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you more points on this one.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We went to people and they said that,

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, what we want is,

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I would want to start my day

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: by looking at the face of the God.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So they said, can you create an alarm for me?

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Similarly, people came to us and said that,

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, this is how my day looks like.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you just solve this one problem for me?

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That, hey, can you tell me that if this is the day,

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_00]: this is what I should do.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of these feedbacks came our way.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Now some we have to discard,

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: some we have to think deeply about.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But as a builder,

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to try to read between the lines.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That who is this user, what he wants, test things out.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was one part.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we looked at usage of certain features

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and combination of usage and how it yields retention,

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: how it yields high frequency use cases.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then also kept on looking at these subjective insights

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and kept trying to marry the two and so on.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's how the whole platform evolved.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was a genius idea, by the way.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think it's similar

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to the stepper challenge and so on.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know why people find it,

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a good thing,

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: but people find that motivation to do 10,000 steps.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, fantastic.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely fantastic.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The other thing I like about the app

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and perhaps this is the line of thinking

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_01]: which has led to all of that,

[00:36:09] [SPEAKER_01]: is that I've told you,

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've used Astro apps,

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I've used apps that give updates on Ekadashi,

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: for example, and so on.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I look at Shrimandar,

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it seems super comprehensive.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_01]: There's anything and everything possible on that.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So your roadmap was kind of built out this way?

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll tell you what.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So today Shrimandar stands for these three things,

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_00]: which is Darshan, Churhava and Pooja.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll explain what these two things are.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was August 2022,

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: when we were just an engagement app.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And people were using the app for free

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because it had a lot of engagement

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: or information sets aggregated for them,

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: curated for them.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're a business.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And we thought that,

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_00]: can we build something which is helpful for the people

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: where they would want to,

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: which adds meaning to their life.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And for the convenience that I create for them,

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: would they be willing to pay?

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And we tried multiple things.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What we did was we launched

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: digital monetization essentially.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, the digital shrine that you had,

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll help you customize it

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: or some premium content pieces I brought in for you

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can pay for it to use.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So this was the digital assets that we created

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that people can pay for and use.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: The other set of things that we tried was where we said that,

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, is there something that these users need?

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we think they trust us

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the kind of user love we were getting.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's just understand what do they need.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Now one user came over and she asked us that,

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, every single Friday or Thursday,

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I keep on putting some money in my home shrine.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And whenever some of my relative would go to a shrine

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_00]: that we believe in,

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say she told me that there's a Mansa Devi shrine

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: in Haridwar that she believes in,

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_00]: she would want to give that stack of money

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_00]: to that relative and say,

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_00]: can you offer chundri at the temple

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_00]: on my family's name, on our behalf?

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So this user asked me that,

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, I believe that you might have people there.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you do it on our behalf?

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So what Chadhawa is today,

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Chadhawa is a way where-

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: We call it Kanike basically in Canada.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Chadhawa is where you offer goods to the God

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: as a way to show your devotion and love towards them.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And you, if you just think about it,

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: 200 million people in India do it on a daily basis

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: in their homes or local shrines and whatnot.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And there is of course a very large affinity

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: to these large temples and pilgrimage that they have,

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but they don't have that access.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we give them that access?

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we give them that convenience?

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So what Chadhawa is,

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: we help you make those offerings

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_00]: at a temple of your choice that is on the platform.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And we give you a feedback where in that feedback,

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you will see a video where the offerings are made,

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: your names are taken and everything else.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is offered at a cost,

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: which is similar to the cost that you will pay

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: at when you go to that particular place,

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: which is let's say a basket of flowers

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_00]: will cost you 50, 60 rupees.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what it costs here.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Now this is Chadhawa.

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: The third one is puja,

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: where we realize that people want to participate

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in some of the pujas.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Most pujas that they would do at their homes

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: or the frequency of going to a pilgrimage is lower.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So, but there are enough number of things

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that you would want to do at these pilgrimages,

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: which you can't today because you are in Mumbai,

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Seattle, wherever you are, right?

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Can I give you that particular access?

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So people are participating on these pujas

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_00]: which are being offered to them at one tenth of the cost.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And what you get back is a recorded or a live video

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: of that particular puja.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Also you get a prasad box.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And souvenirs and whatnot.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think these are very strong value adds

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that the platform provides to them.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So Shrimad today is darshan, chahawa and puja.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the wedge that we have entered

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the market with.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_00]: People are asking us for more things

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00]: that we can do for them

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_00]: which are essentially deeper experiences.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are working towards building them.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So that essentially is the spectrum

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in which we are operating it today.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we're trying to solve for

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_00]: at this point.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, very valid points.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so now you're talking about

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: this whole logistical layer to your business.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And as tech folks, we are kind of averse to that.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you want tech, software.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Ideally, I don't even want to interact

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but then let the money come into the bank

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: via credit card, etc., ideally.

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But then now you're talking about logistics.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You're talking about,

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not a bits and bytes business anymore.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like you're moving physical stuff.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Was there any skepticism on that

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: because you have to build real stuff now?

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: See, I think that's where

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the customer obsession comes into play.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the first thing that

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00]: if you look at our values that we have,

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: the first value is customer obsession

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: or the user obsession.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think our job is to build for the user need.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And whatever the user needs,

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_00]: our job is to serve it in the finest way,

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in the most transparent way.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And whatever it takes to build it,

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I should build it.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel earlier, I had this bias

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that it has to be only product led.

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_00]: It has to be this.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I feel as a founder,

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: as a team which is building it,

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_00]: why do you bring in that bias?

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_00]: You should not.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Your job is to serve that.

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: See, as a creator,

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: your job is to solve for that particular need,

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: do right by the user

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and do whatever it takes to serve him well.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, if that requires you going in doing some ops,

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: that requires you building a new app

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: or whatever tech you would want to build,

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you should do that.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's something that drove us.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Even today, feel right.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Whatever we need to do as Apps for Bharat,

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_00]: as the team that is building the Srimanthi Rao app,

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: we would do that because there is this deep commitment

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and deep value engagement

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that we have towards our user

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that hey, we feel you.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: We know that it's an important thing

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that you need in your life.

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And let me do whatever it takes

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_00]: to make sure that you get it.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is really the more that you have,

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a significant more,

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: given the number of temples and deities

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and rituals and so on and so forth that we have.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you cover a significant small percentage of these,

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like a huge value add to the section of folks

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: who really abide by that.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's one more thing I would want to add.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're talking about the business model innovation

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_00]: for that matter,

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_00]: we understand few things about this particular user.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you think about this,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: we actually very carefully design this particular platform.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: If you think about how do we monetize

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and there are many people who are trying to copy us,

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: what they don't see is the structured approach

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that we have taken to be able to solve

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for user love and user attention.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll explain what do I mean.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Chorhava service,

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_00]: which is at a dollar price point.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Population scale proposition.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I want to offer a basket of flowers at a certain temple.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll get you to do it at the cost

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_00]: that you would pay when you go to that temple.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would want to,

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and today for an average transacting user in a month,

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_00]: there are 2.2 transactions

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: that a user does on an average.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: If I were to remove people who drop

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: after the first transaction,

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that number will go to 2.9

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: or roughly three, I would say.

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The three transactions,

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Chorhava transactions in a month.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Now this is similar to what companies observed

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: in the food delivery era

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: where an average transacting user

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: transacts three times or two times

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: or lesser earlier in a month.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I feel this,

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a population scale,

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: low price point, high frequency use case

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_00]: when coupled with the puja,

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_00]: which is once in three months sort of use case,

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_00]: which is a higher price point proposition,

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_00]: but lower than what you would pay

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: in the offline world for example.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say at a thousand rupees,

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a thousand five hundred rupees,

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_00]: you would pay that, right?

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You couple that, right?

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: People would come and trust your platform

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: by trying that dollar price point service

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and they feel this company is real.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not a fly with the night kind of operator

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and they would come and engage with you

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and those users will go and say,

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, this also, by the way offers this and this.

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me try that.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's my sampling service,

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_00]: which today is CM2 positive.

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow, really?

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_00]: At a dollar price point.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, exactly.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think we do batching.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So because the kind of volume that we have,

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_00]: so the order volume that we gather at a certain temple,

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it helps us optimize the whole processes and operations.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We batch these orders

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and we hyper optimize on the time

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that we engage with the panditji on,

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_00]: how much we pay and whatnot.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So the panditji makes a lot of money

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: for the time that he spends with us.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And because we batch these things,

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_00]: we also are able to generate

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: sizable margins in a batch, I would say.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you couple that with the Pooja service,

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: like I said, which is a higher dollar value,

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_00]: slightly medium frequency.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And then all of this has a free content platform.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So what happens is my month six or month 12

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_00]: transacting user retention on the app is very, very high.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I would not want to share the numbers right now,

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's actually very, very high.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And that triad as a strategy

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_00]: is I think it's a winning strategy.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the project we're following.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, you're literally building for a lifestyle, right?

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I think about it,

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the user behavior is already there

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and you've completely like enabled this via digital.

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel, Roshan,

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: we are a spiritual tourism company.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It so happens that this spiritual tourism company,

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: people can participate digitally

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: through a Pooja, through a Chodhava

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_00]: from wherever they are.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_00]: It gives them access and convenience.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We would want to do more things

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_00]: for this whole segment, for example.

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I as a company, I as a platform

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_00]: help you connect to your belief systems

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and value systems, particularly around devotion.

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And we help you experience it

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_00]: at the comfort of your homes or later on

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: when you are there, we'll also help you there

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_00]: because we are falling for the whole value chain.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I've been thinking of suggesting this to my mom

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and checking her reaction.

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I donate to our Kula Devta almost,

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like a monthly thing.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Some days I get a receipt,

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_01]: some days I don't get a receipt.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very like as in the transparency is not there.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But whereas when you go there,

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and let's say you're taking your usual rice and milk

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and jaggery or whatever,

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you can actually see it in action

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that people are being fed the prasad and everything.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is amazing, this is amazing.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I very closely relate to what you're talking about.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And all of these places also,

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: these are not commonly easily accessible also,

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_01]: most of them.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like Coor for example, it's raining cats and dogs

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: right now.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely impossible to sort of venture out and so on.

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are places like for example,

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Samarnath and Tirupati and so on and so forth.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Tirupati, I mean like a minimum waiting would be

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: like at least a half a day.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean the last darshan I had was like around five hours,

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: right four to five hours.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So yes, I mean it's not the actual physical thing

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in front of the, you know,

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the God as such there.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think very good point you're making, right?

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'll just, I'm sorry to cut you here.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not replacing that behavior.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Correct.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So you would go there once in a year,

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_00]: once in five years.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You might be consuming all of that information

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_00]: through a live stream.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But devotion has always been participative in nature.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_00]: By participative I mean you see something and you respond.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So we realize that response layer is not existing.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So the Chalhava and Pooja is a response layer to it.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And the same devotee would be more connected

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: to that particular.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'll give you examples, right?

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a partner temple that we have,

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I would not name them,

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_00]: but they are making enough money through the platform

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_00]: by doing this particular service additionally.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That they are, so one temple told us that

[00:48:55] [SPEAKER_00]: they are creating this.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a temple which has a lot of historical

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and historical and cultural significance.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say is not supported in enough ways, right?

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And a platform like us has helped them

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_00]: tell their story to a larger audience.

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: They have told us that they are getting

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_00]: a higher number of footfall

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the kind of push

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_00]: or the kind of information we have spread.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And that money that they have generated,

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: they are using it to put together a shed.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I know that shed might not be

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_00]: the biggest infrastructure development they can do,

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think something's better than nothing.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's the kind of thing we're trying to do.

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what I was thinking about as well.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So like the reason why I donate to my Kula Devata there,

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of course, there's a whole story to that

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and everything which we don't have to go into now,

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was like a process of realization.

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing also is that,

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01]: look, you donate to all of the larger temples anyway.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And they will, they have enough mass of devotees there

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that it'll run.

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're not starved of expenses.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they're not starved of funds

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: for their expenses and so on.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you go back to your village, temples,

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: your local deities and so on and so forth,

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: they could really use resources.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely use resources.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you think about the way your ancestors lived,

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not even talking about five generations back,

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: even three generations back,

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: the maximum rituals and everything

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: would happen at your village deity.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where everything happened,

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: whether it was like a, you know, Namkaran,

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: or whether it was even like the first invite

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to a wedding or whatever it is.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I'm really excited about that,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that some of these lesser known places, so on,

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: which may not have the kind of resources

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that a Balaji temple in Tirupati will have,

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: will also get a chance to sort of use these resources.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So we essentially know that that's the goal, right?

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Our first goal is all the temples

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: which have historical and cultural significance.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Can you enable digital access and convenience for people?

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel whichever community they're able to build,

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: the proceeds will help them in many ways, I would say.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you go and build these partnerships

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with these folks, right?

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I would assume they're from a,

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, of course WhatsApp has made tech

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of ubiquitous for people,

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: WhatsApp and YouTube, right?

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_01]: My mom listens to bhajans on YouTube.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She doesn't play a cassette anymore, right?

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you talk to these folks,

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what is their initial reaction like

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and how do you kind of get them on board?

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_01]: See, I think thanks to COVID,

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_00]: people, so this is already happening,

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_00]: but at a small fragmented scale.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, you would go to a temple

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and you would get the number of a Panditji

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and you will say, okay,

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Ek Adashime, you get the pooja done for me

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and he'll get on a WhatsApp call and get it done.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But think about this, right?

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: How many people in India would have that WhatsApp number?

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And how many people can he serve

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: in a very unstructured way of processing and so on?

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We feel, can we make it more structured,

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_00]: make it more homogeneous where the entire community

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_00]: of temple, temple trust get benefited from this

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and can we structure it for them?

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So when we go to them,

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so I think the journey was not this way.

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_00]: When we started, we found out,

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: so think of this, right?

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_00]: The top 10 temples in India are,

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say category A,

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that then let's say 11th to 30th will be category B

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and then 30th to 100th will be category C and so on.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So we went to a category C, category D temple

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_00]: and went to them and said that,

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, this is what you guys are doing.

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_00]: There are enough people on the platform

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that who are asking who might like this particular temple

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because of the story it has

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_00]: and every temple also has its aspiration

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_00]: that, hey, we are here today,

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: but I would want to serve more devotees for example

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and people are now open to the idea of,

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and thanks to a lot of platforms which have come in,

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: they are seeing the digital adoption happening

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's very, very real.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So when we tell them that, hey,

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: people sitting in a Mumbai or in a Bangalore

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and your temple is in somewhere,

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_00]: let's say in Ujjain

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's the third or fourth most important temple

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_00]: in Ujjain for example,

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I can get more people to come and participate.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first set was where we used,

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_00]: we had a lot of users in the platform.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: We got these category C, category D temples,

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_00]: demonstrated enough demand for them

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and enough demand which was sizable.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you a data point, right?

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We use that data and went up to category B temples

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and said that, hey, this is a temple which is lesser known,

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_00]: has this kind of significance.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: You guys are there, would you want to try this?

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_00]: They tried that

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and data was the one which was game changing in here.

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you two data points.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a temple called as Hanuman Grey Temple in Ayodhya,

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: which is I would say as important as the Ram Mandir.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_00]: There was this Hanuman Jayanti

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: where they said that 3.5 lakh people

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00]: visited that shrine

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and the temple could at max serve one and half,

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: two lakh people

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_00]: because beyond that it becomes too dense

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and there are enough number of risks I would say.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I'll give you a data point.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: In Hanuman Jayanti, 25,000 people

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: participated digitally by making offerings at their temple

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: and if you just look at the proportion, right?

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm talking about 7-8% of the offline footfall

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00]: being served online.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you another example.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So, Shani Srinapur Mandir is in Nashik

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's the most popular Shani Mandir in India.

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_00]: On Shani Jayanti,

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: they said 1.5 lakh to 2 lakh people

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_00]: would have visited them

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and they got capped out

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because of course space limitation and whatnot

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and we have very deep partnership with them.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: 30,000 people participated online.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We're talking about 20% penetration.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_00]: We are building systems with them

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_00]: where we can get to 1x

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: which is if 1.5 lakh people could go there

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and then 1.5 lakh people can participate digitally.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what we're talking about.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Amazing.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And think of this, right?

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_00]: The amount of, and the good part is

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00]: all the employment that we have been able to generate

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_00]: for the priests there is substantial enough

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: where they can now offer more rewards,

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_00]: compensation incentives

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's sizable income that they make

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and they can use that to be able to give education

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: to their community, kids,

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: to give health insurance and whatnot.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_00]: It's an income source that never existed

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_00]: and now the beauty will be

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_00]: that every temple in India is capped, right?

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_00]: On a given day you can only hold these many people

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and there are people,

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and think of the people who are elderly,

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: people who are handicapped,

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_00]: people who are poor,

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_00]: who could never go there.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Can I give you some glimpse of that experience

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that you have been striving for?

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you think of the entire spectrum,

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_00]: there is enough value in what we are creating today.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel the win is going to be when

[00:56:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel something like a charhawa,

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_00]: something like a puja,

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_00]: all of these would be very, very large use cases

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00]: because they're part of daily behaviour.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_00]: If I'm able to build a very trusted way

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: which is smooth and convenient and whatnot,

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that just might be magical, you know?

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That might be magical.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a new way of your mom waking up

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and making a small offering.

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that small offering often we as people

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_00]: in this capitalistic world think of in certain way.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But let's understand what it gives to your mom.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_00]: She feels blessed.

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: She feels that there is this almighty

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_00]: who is taking care of me and my family.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that mental reinforcement is very, very important.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel in a country where you don't have

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_00]: enough resources, enough infra,

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and we're a growing country.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of things are developing and growing and whatnot.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Still, if you think about this, right?

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We are actually doing okay.

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I was in SFO

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: three months back.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean it's...

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_00]: God, that economy is so rich,

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_00]: so such good infrastructure.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Look at what's happening.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_00]: What's happening there.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, it's crazy.

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And just think about us, right?

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Think about us, right?

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so despite having all the hardships that we have,

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_00]: still people are saying, working hard,

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that there's a hope that we as a family

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_00]: will do better at some point in time.

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think these fabrics,

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel devotion is a cultural fabric.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_00]: This small cultural fabric,

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_00]: if it is moving a generation forward

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and making them to do more hard work

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and do more things so that they can have a better life,

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_00]: these small enablements,

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_00]: if it helps them do better, be better, feel better,

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_00]: what more you need?

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_00]: What more you need?

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: It's phenomenal.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've had the same damn experience, right?

[00:58:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you would imagine that San Francisco,

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: one of the richest states in the US,

[00:58:29] [SPEAKER_01]: per capita, God knows how much,

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: 50,000 perhaps, maybe more, right?

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And you would imagine this place

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to be rich and prosperous

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and people to be happy, lively, and so on and so forth.

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just like,

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: when I was walking down downtown

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and I saw these folks, right?

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my heart sank, man.

[00:58:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, these are folks living

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_01]: in the richest part of the world, right?

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolute zombies, right?

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I've seen poor and deprived people in India.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, all of us have seen, right?

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I've not seen that abject hopelessness,

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that level of hopelessness.

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think like family,

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: the kind of Dharmic values that we have

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on and so forth,

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_01]: people don't kind of,

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_01]: like people will take it for granted, right?

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But think about it, man.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, India's state capacity

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: is like so famously starved, right?

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like how many police stations do we have?

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_01]: How many cases do we have

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: like in the backlogs in the thing?

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So when people talk about all these crimes,

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: statistics and everything,

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm surprised it's not 100x more actually,

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: at a minimum, right?

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So there is something out there, right?

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You call it society, culture, religion,

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever it is, right?

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That is sort of holding us together.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly, exactly.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I have this problem that,

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, when we, so,

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00]: when we're sitting here in Kormangala,

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_00]: when we think of this particular behavior,

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_00]: we say, oh, what a regressive,

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: uncool behavior it is, right?

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel we have to understand

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: the human psychology and what it does to people

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and what magic it creates in their mind

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and what, I don't know,

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_00]: this whole fabric of hope that they get,

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: that they can pull closer and feel tighter.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel it's a good purpose for me to build for.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's absolutely phenomenal.

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I think look at the very base level, right?

[01:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And that, I mean, we are coming,

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: we come from a very sophisticated culture

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and everything, so I don't wanna put it this way,

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but the very, very base level religion

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is very low cost psychotherapy, right?

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, calming someone down

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: at the face of like extreme loss and like,

[01:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, like real unfortunate situations

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on and so forth, right?

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I hate to go on a tangent,

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but think about it.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think-

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know why we're here.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know where we're headed.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, those are like two very big ambiguities, right?

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything you know and love and whatever will be gone.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So what are you gonna do?

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can get into this very nihilistic

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of framework of mind,

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: like, what is the point of it all?

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel hope is a good thing.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Hope is a very good thing.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'll give you one more.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we have deviated a lot from the operator part,

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_00]: but I think no, it's fine.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel this is interesting conversation.

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I actually feel there is this,

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll give you an example, right?

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Not example, this is what I saw myself.

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: This is COVID second wave

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and my dad got COVID, fairly severe it was.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: He was stationed in Amethi in HL township

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: where he was still working.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It was his last year of employment.

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We rushed him to Lucknow.

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Lucknow is 120 kilometers away from Amethi.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We rushed him in an ambulance.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not getting any beds.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We somehow got some private clinic

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: or private hospital to give him some admission.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Then what happens was the doctor says that,

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, you have to get remedy severe.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And finally I also got COVID.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was undergoing this fever and whatnot.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had rented a Zoom car.

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So from the hospital to this central center,

[01:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: it was roughly 25, 30 kilometers away.

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So I drove with fever, got there,

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_00]: queued up at five a.m. in the morning.

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_00]: The distribution started around eight a.m.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_00]: There were like hundreds of people who were queuing up.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And at site, I'll tell you, right?

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: There were people who were seated with folded hands

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and praying and keeping it tight when you see that.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is this normal fist.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_00]: And we're thinking about when you are actually

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in a lot of pain, you clench it.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And that, I was like, whatever this is,

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that site was crazy.

[01:03:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, yeah, I'm running a startup.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I have some access, whatever.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That point in time, of course,

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_00]: everywhere in the world, it was very, very bad.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought we did very well as a nation,

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: but still it was bad for the masses.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I feel we pushed through in whatever ways, right?

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was seeing people with folded hands

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: and praying and crying.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, if they're believing

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that they'll make it through,

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and if their relatives will make it through.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's enough reinforcement

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and whatever is giving that.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Who am I to judge what is that?

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's working, it's working.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No, absolutely.

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so one thing I'm also noticing

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: is the amount of thought you have put into

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: building every aspect of this business.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so crazy, right?

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because generally when again, from the SaaS world,

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: when you look at consumer,

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you just say, okay, if it's a successful app,

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: someone else will just come and build it.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: The only way to monetize and make money is advertising.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But then what you are actually showing

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: is that there are so many layers of differentiation

[01:04:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you can add, right?

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: There are products and utilities

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you can serve via an app and so on.

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome, man.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think we've come a long way

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_00]: since the last 10 years of building stuff.

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think this is such a great time

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_00]: because I'm seeing so many founders

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: building very uniquely Indian companies

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_00]: for unique problem statements.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel very proud about it

[01:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: because gone are the times when people used to ask us,

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_00]: can you show me a parallel in the US or China?

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel so proud that when I show

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Shri Mandir to someone, right?

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_00]: People are able to appreciate that

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a unique Indian need, unique problem statement,

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: unique way of solving it.

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm very proud that our community

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: of founders, believers,

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: people who have a lot of foolish courage,

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: they're pushing through and making it.

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel, you know, if you think that there is,

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and through this beautiful platform that you've created,

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I would actually say it out to other founders

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: who are there.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It's fine if you are not able to find a parallel.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's fine if you are not able to find,

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, are there any parallels for this,

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_00]: for you to look up to and maybe get inspired from?

[01:05:53] [SPEAKER_00]: If you feel strongly about a problem statement,

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: it's fine if it is uniquely Indian, just push through.

[01:06:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, so we've had quite a few of those folks

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: solve for things like, you know,

[01:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Clean Water, for example, here, right?

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Or we've had Stage and Cuckoo FM,

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_01]: which are solving again, very like vernacular needs

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: for India and so on, right?

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: There is definitely an impetus to build for India

[01:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and also realizing that look,

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, India is so big, right?

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there are many, many Mexicos

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and many Americas within India, right?

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you sort of divvy up these different sections

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on, it's significant enough for you

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: to build something for that section of India itself.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But one thing we keep hearing, right?

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, let's say now after some proof and evidence

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: has come through with the likes of Stage

[01:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and the others and your app and so on, right?

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that we keep hearing this old trope of India

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: as a Dow market and not an ARPU market, right?

[01:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's nonsense.

[01:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's redundant at this point.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: It's nonsense.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think India, consumer story,

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: the whole world is investing in that.

[01:07:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is evolving.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_00]: People are gathering aspirations and gathering money

[01:07:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and trying to spend on those aspirations.

[01:07:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I think this is a decade of India

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and not saying it in a hopeful way,

[01:07:20] [SPEAKER_00]: most of us would have read this Bloom's report,

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: beautiful report and many of these reports.

[01:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: We had Sajith and Amal on the podcast

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: discussing the report.

[01:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's our time now.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Indian consumer is ready.

[01:07:37] [SPEAKER_00]: He's willing to pay for things

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: we thought they'll never pay for.

[01:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think India is no longer a Dow firm.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a DAU and ARPPU firm.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the thing

[01:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that I wanted to quickly address as well, right?

[01:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is that people think that the capacity to pay

[01:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: isn't there beyond a certain scale in India, right?

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I kind of believe

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that Indians are cost-conscious, not value.

[01:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the Indians are value-conscious,

[01:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: not cost-conscious, right?

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you look at, for example, like the weddings,

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how much people spend in villages?

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's more status-seeking behavior.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, but I'm just saying like they do spend.

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They do spend, yes.

[01:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: India spends.

[01:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: If it really matters to them, they will spend, right?

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So and that's something that you've realized

[01:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: as well through the...

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so I'll tell you what, in our case,

[01:08:28] [SPEAKER_00]: everyone, so, you know,

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you another small story.

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I was in Khatu.

[01:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Khatu is this town,

[01:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: roughly three hours away from Jaipur

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's a Shyam Jiga Mandir

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: which is popularly called as Khatu Shyam Jiga.

[01:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Interesting story, but like it's a very

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: North Indian-built, popular temple and crazy, you know?

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking that this temple

[01:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: would be seeing lesser footfall,

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: but it was Sunday.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_00]: It was 45 degrees Celsius temperature.

[01:08:59] [SPEAKER_00]: People told me that four lakh devotees are there.

[01:09:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Good God!

[01:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Four lakh devotees.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Insane, insane.

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have a picture that maybe I'll send it to you

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and you can put it out here for people.

[01:09:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Guess the age of people who are queuing up.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: We would assume that the people who are queuing up

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_00]: would be elderly.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you see this picture,

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I'm hoping there's an overlay here.

[01:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you see this picture,

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_00]: you'll realize that the people who are queuing up

[01:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: are mid-20s, mid-30s, mid-40s,

[01:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: young people queuing up for that one darshan

[01:09:36] [SPEAKER_00]: on a very hot day.

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: On a day where they have put sheds

[01:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: and they are showering water

[01:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: so that it is cool and calm for people.

[01:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: People are not stopping.

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think, see, it's like this.

[01:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: We can tag those people in any of these ways.

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's happening.

[01:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: That's happening.

[01:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, I had a similar experience

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: on the Ram Mandir day as well, right?

[01:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the Pran Pratishthan day.

[01:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so I went out to the local Hanuman Mandir

[01:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and I half expected to find people

[01:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: on the other side of 40 and so on.

[01:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they were kids, man.

[01:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There were kids who had like,

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: a few of them had bunked tuitions

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and whatnot and showed up.

[01:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, India is changing for sure.

[01:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are good meaningful businesses

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: that we can build for.

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we are able to see good indicators, right?

[01:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So companies like ShareChat,

[01:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: companies like Cuckoo, companies like Stage,

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: they're monetizing very, very well.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's look at the game economy, booming well.

[01:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: We are seeing people paying for OTTs.

[01:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Newer OTTs are coming to India

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_00]: for finding their growth.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's happening.

[01:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's happening.

[01:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's move on to some of the other

[01:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: strategic aspects of building a business, right?

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, which is like raising money,

[01:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: being, you know, having enough capital, so on.

[01:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And you have some experience on this front, right?

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you had the trial experience before this and so on.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Raising money, 101, what to do, what not to do.

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[01:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel there are, of course,

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_00]: the usual advice around how you should structure

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: your story and how should you articulate

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: about your market opportunity.

[01:11:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And depends on what stage you are at.

[01:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm assuming that you are at a seed

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_00]: or a pre-seed stage, show some proof points and whatnot.

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel it's, if I were to talk a bit philosophically

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: on fundraise, right?

[01:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel it's all about finding the right kind of partner.

[01:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And people invest in people.

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So it becomes extremely important to talk about

[01:11:56] [SPEAKER_00]: who you are and who your team is

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and what your belief systems are

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and what is it that you are willing to create.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel there have been multiple opportunities

[01:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: in my own life where I might not be super clear

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: about where I could get to,

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but I was clear about in which direction

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm willing to go and how much push I'm willing to put

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: with all my heart and might.

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are believers, be it angels

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: or be it early stage funds who look at you

[01:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and they can sense that thing.

[01:12:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's more about how authentically you can talk

[01:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: about who you are and what you're trying to build,

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: what's your purpose and back it up

[01:12:43] [SPEAKER_00]: with what's the market opportunity and whatnot.

[01:12:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also about,

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: it's also about, you are meeting someone

[01:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're asking him his money

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to be put onto you and your company.

[01:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Just think it from the reverse perspective,

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: why he would put that money.

[01:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's also a business, it's not just about supporting you,

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: it's about he is seeking in return

[01:13:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and also he would want to trust you.

[01:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: So I would say if I were to put it the other way

[01:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: in a very first principle laymanish terms,

[01:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you are asking someone 100 rupees and saying,

[01:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: hey, that person is supporting you

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but the larger goal is to be able to multiply his money.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Two, he's putting his money on you and your team.

[01:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So it means that he should be able to build some trust

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: onto you as an individual.

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: What all things you will say and do and show

[01:13:38] [SPEAKER_00]: to be able to solve for those two problems statements.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what fundraising is.

[01:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah.

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's such an important question to answer,

[01:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: because often I think there are more tactical things

[01:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: like how much should you raise at what valuation,

[01:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: what dilution, so on and so forth.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But really essentially it comes down to that,

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_01]: which is that if I am going to raise,

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: what do I commit to in return?

[01:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And we realized this over the last two, three years,

[01:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: 2021, mega bull run, everyone raised,

[01:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone took in a boatload of money

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: at ridiculous valuations.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then now we're seeing an over correction

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: on that front, down rounds and so on and so forth.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like a hamster wheel in that sense.

[01:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: The other important aspect of your business

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: is this whole app store, play store side of things.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've had folks from Coco FM, Stage and so on

[01:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and so forth.

[01:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And they too have been impacted by some of the Google,

[01:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Apple, like kind of discretionary policies

[01:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and so on and so forth.

[01:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's extremely opaque in terms of how it works.

[01:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And second, there is no real meaningful redressal

[01:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: for as large a market India is.

[01:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So what are your thoughts on this?

[01:14:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That's why I feel it's very regressive in many ways.

[01:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think.

[01:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And not to mention the tax also.

[01:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I feel,

[01:15:04] [SPEAKER_01]: what we call it the tax because

[01:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah, whatever degree you are having, right?

[01:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You should also understand what stage is the country

[01:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and is an economy.

[01:15:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I feel my one line to this is right.

[01:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Even if I'm Google or Apple as a business, right?

[01:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I should understand that there are many

[01:15:22] [SPEAKER_00]: golden geese in the making.

[01:15:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And they should not cut them open.

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.

[01:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: What they're doing is they are,

[01:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because of whatever take rates that they have,

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they're bleeding companies to death.

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing, right?

[01:15:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you have a 30% take rate,

[01:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I basically have to reinvent my business model.

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are certain things I cannot do at all.

[01:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I can't build certain businesses.

[01:15:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel and other part is right.

[01:15:49] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think these are also monopolistic advantages

[01:15:51] [SPEAKER_00]: that some of these companies take.

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There should be, I feel there should be better policies,

[01:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: better structures to be able to solve for it.

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think 30% though,

[01:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Insane.

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Nonsensical.

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You are monetizing on every single thing

[01:16:02] [SPEAKER_00]: on your Play Store.

[01:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[01:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you take away that 30%, insane, right?

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And what are you providing, right?

[01:16:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We're providing a place to host

[01:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: and bunch of services and whatnot.

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:16:12] [SPEAKER_00]: For which you're already charging through your

[01:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: other services and whatnot, right?

[01:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel, yeah, I feel this should be solved.

[01:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think like an Indian, indigenous,

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: App Store equivalent will develop or?

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, I think this is, see I'll tell you what.

[01:16:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's again,

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_00]: monopolistic firewall that they were able to put.

[01:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: If you would have tried any of these

[01:16:35] [SPEAKER_00]: newer Play Store that have come,

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you would realize that the kind of permissions

[01:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that they would, if you're installing an app

[01:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: from a newer Play Store,

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they have put too many blockers

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: where there are security blockers

[01:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and bunch of these things are there, right?

[01:16:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So if you make it so hard for people to want,

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's tough.

[01:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's tough.

[01:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, just a security warning will freak enough.

[01:16:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Will freak enough people out.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean that.

[01:16:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have diminished that possibility to a level

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: where it's tough to build a independent Play Store.

[01:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think two things might happen, right?

[01:17:09] [SPEAKER_01]: One is I think these folks will start

[01:17:11] [SPEAKER_01]: having to independently negotiate

[01:17:13] [SPEAKER_01]: with certain companies and so on.

[01:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they've done that with a few

[01:17:16] [SPEAKER_01]: gaming giants in the US.

[01:17:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The second is some kind of anti-trust, right?

[01:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is like these folks come and say,

[01:17:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you can't do this.

[01:17:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't be the gatekeeper to a trillion dollar economy.

[01:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is essentially what it is basically.

[01:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So last couple of questions before we let you go.

[01:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: For founders operating in this kind of

[01:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a market environment, right?

[01:17:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Where it's a bit of a down,

[01:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, bit of a downturn is a understatement, right?

[01:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Where it's a legit market downturn.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: There's been a correction and so on, right?

[01:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've had to focus a lot more on

[01:17:49] [SPEAKER_01]: profitability versus let's say growth, right?

[01:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What would your advice to founders be

[01:17:56] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of how they should operate?

[01:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And here again, like you're also

[01:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a prolific angel investor.

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You've invested in a bunch of successful companies

[01:18:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as well, right?

[01:18:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So seeing, looking at it from the other side

[01:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of the table, I think you have both these

[01:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: vantage points.

[01:18:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What is your advice to founders?

[01:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say, you know, build it for yourself.

[01:18:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, at the end of the day,

[01:18:12] [SPEAKER_00]: you're building a business.

[01:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: You should not build it for secondaries.

[01:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You should not build for the investors.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I think try to create value for your users first,

[01:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: then your team, then your investors,

[01:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and then you in that order.

[01:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And not in the other way around, I would say.

[01:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel whatever this whole

[01:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: current environment has given us

[01:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: are just good things.

[01:18:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've seen, I mean, for us also, right?

[01:18:44] [SPEAKER_00]: We are operating in a more financially disciplined fashion.

[01:18:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We are solving on the fundamentals.

[01:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We believe that we'll be able to build

[01:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a very, very large company on these fundamentals.

[01:18:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think capital constraint in some ways is beautiful.

[01:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it makes you more disciplined.

[01:19:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it used to happen right in their families

[01:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: also, right?

[01:19:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You used to ask your parents,

[01:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: give me this toy, give me this toy.

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And even if they could have afforded it, right?

[01:19:12] [SPEAKER_00]: They would dismiss some of your requests.

[01:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: They would want you to rationalize some of these requests.

[01:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes you way more thoughtful.

[01:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[01:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It makes you way more pragmatic.

[01:19:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what, this market is like a good period.

[01:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a nice way of putting it for sure.

[01:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Any books or podcasts

[01:19:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that you would recommend to our listeners?

[01:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:19:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I'll recommend some books.

[01:19:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel as if you're building in consumer rate,

[01:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there are a few books that you should read.

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the obvious ones are quite a few

[01:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that many of people would know.

[01:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I think one book that I would recommend would be,

[01:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, it's not about,

[01:20:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, we should read Man's Search for Meaning.

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a good one.

[01:20:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have guessed that actually.

[01:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Man's Search for Meaning is a good one.

[01:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Very, very good one.

[01:20:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It will be good for you as a founder

[01:20:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and also will help you get some understanding

[01:20:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and whatnot.

[01:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a book called Wanting.

[01:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's on mythic theory.

[01:20:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good read, very, very good read.

[01:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: It helps you understand why we want what we want.

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I would say there's a book by,

[01:20:45] [SPEAKER_00]: there's an octalysis book which is by Yuki Chow,

[01:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: which is on primarily gamification

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and a bunch of those things around that.

[01:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I think these are good interesting reads

[01:20:56] [SPEAKER_00]: for you to understand consumer psychology

[01:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and these are interesting reads, I would say,

[01:21:00] [SPEAKER_00]: which I would recommend to people.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.

[01:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[01:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So Prashant, this was a fascinating conversation

[01:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and I think I'm inspired enough to give it another shot.

[01:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[01:21:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much again for, you know,

[01:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: sparing your time for this.

[01:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, hopefully we'll host you again.

[01:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[01:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Good meeting you.

[01:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for joining us on this episode

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Startup Operator podcast.

[01:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you enjoyed this one.

[01:21:24] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be back again with another interesting startup

[01:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and another interesting founder.