Lazy Apply

[00:00:00] Bonjour and welcome to the recruitment flex. Shelly, happy International Women's Day.

[00:00:07] Thank you, sir. I know we're recording early, but when this show airs, the YWCA does a fundraiser

[00:00:16] every year called Y Whisper and Pamela Anderson is the keynote speaker. So I'm taking Brooklyn

[00:00:22] with me and I am so excited because although yes,

[00:00:26] she's a beautiful woman, but when you really listen to her story and what she was up against

[00:00:36] for all the scandals and her being blamed for the scandals and oh my goodness,

[00:00:41] they remind me what the scandals were again?

[00:00:45] Seriously?

[00:00:46] Oh, that's right.

[00:00:47] You were only in about grade two or grade three.

[00:00:50] So...

[00:00:51] So no, I'm kidding because Pamela Anderson was a big part of my teenage years.

[00:00:59] I had a really big poster of her in my room.

[00:01:03] So I was a big fan of Baywatch,

[00:01:05] a big fan of Pamela Anderson.

[00:01:07] And I was a big fan of one of those scandals actually.

[00:01:10] It made me feel less of a man for reasons

[00:01:14] that people would know the scandal.

[00:01:16] But yes, I am very well aware of that scandal

[00:01:18] that happened 20 years ago.

[00:01:20] Yeah, cause yes, her sons would be in their mid 20s

[00:01:23] and the boys were just little babies. I think when all of this was going down, maybe it's longer than that because it was just

[00:01:30] right when you were able to order off the internet. That was like the biggest thing was being able

[00:01:37] to buy this videotape off the internet. Like I remember seeing a Netflix documentary of her couple years ago or a show, was it a documentary?

[00:01:47] It was her own documentary.

[00:01:49] And I think when I watched it,

[00:01:51] I completely changed my opinion of her

[00:01:55] when I can relate to the struggles that women had

[00:02:00] and the level of patriarch that she faced from the public, that she faced even from her own circle of so-called friends, from the industry, and how she was one of the first to bring forward a lawsuit to say, no, you can't steal my private

[00:02:29] property and sell it for your own profit and gain.

[00:02:33] I mean, Karma got the guy in the end because the guy I think is like fucking homeless and

[00:02:38] living under a bridge somewhere.

[00:02:40] But she went to court at a time when people were calling her the most horrible

[00:02:45] things for having intimate relations with her husband. And how is that anybody's business?

[00:02:53] And you know what? They made him look like a fucking hero, but they made her look to

[00:02:57] be like she was somehow less than a human being. Like it was horrible how she was treated. Anyways, that's that's

[00:03:05] why I say she's got more courage than 10 men because no one had the courage to not only

[00:03:11] go through this humiliation, but then stand up for what is right.

[00:03:17] There is a lot of women that I am extremely thankful on International Women's Day. Pamela

[00:03:22] Anderson didn't make the cut the top 10, but you can tell me more.

[00:03:26] I might bring her up in my top 10 women of all time.

[00:03:29] I have four at home, though, that will automatically rank.

[00:03:33] And you're like, you're in the right place.

[00:03:35] You're in the top 10 right now.

[00:03:36] So let's...

[00:03:37] Oh, gee, thanks.

[00:03:38] You might get displaced by Pamela Anderson,

[00:03:40] depending on how good the story is,

[00:03:42] but I'm excited about International Women's Day,

[00:03:44] but I'm very excited about our little trip to Montreal.

[00:03:48] It should be a great time meeting with Harne Branch and her clients on Monday.

[00:03:52] But Shelley, I am ecstatic to go to Hockey Night in Canada.

[00:03:57] A Montreal Toronto game on a Saturday night.

[00:04:02] I've watched Hockey Night on Saturday for my whole life since I was a baby,

[00:04:09] right? And I have never been there on a Saturday. So I am ecstatic. And I really want to thank the

[00:04:15] team at Harn Branch, who hooking me up with a ticket. Yes, I dare say, there's the biggest smile

[00:04:22] you are ever going to see on Serge's face is going to see his favorite team play on a Saturday night and in Montreal.

[00:04:29] So yes, I know you're going to have such a good time.

[00:04:32] And you will be at all the fancy restaurants and all the fancy shopping because I don't

[00:04:38] know if you've been to Montreal, but the shopping in the restaurants, which are two of your

[00:04:42] favorite things is is on my page.

[00:04:44] So I'm glad you're going early. I'm glad you're going to experience that.

[00:04:48] I will be experienced none of that because I couldn't care less. I'm actually trying to

[00:04:54] get into the Barbie barn. The Barbie barn is a very famous rib place that's been around forever.

[00:05:00] And I last went 25 years ago. And unfortunately, it's closing March 17. So I

[00:05:07] have to experience that one last time. Just coming back to International Women's Day, you and I

[00:05:14] had a plan that we would invite more female executive practitioners in the TA space on the show.

[00:05:22] I made my list of who I would love to have on the show

[00:05:26] and reached out to them,

[00:05:29] explained what the show was about

[00:05:31] and invited them to come on the podcast.

[00:05:34] And Serge, not one, has even gotten back to me.

[00:05:39] Every single one of them has ghosted me.

[00:05:41] I just don't get it, Serge, I just don't get it. Why we can't

[00:05:47] get women to come on the show? Like we have easily reach out to men. They're more than

[00:05:53] happy to come in and talk about talent acquisition and talent attraction and employer brand.

[00:06:00] And like, I am absolutely baffled. Is it me?

[00:06:05] Well, it might be you.

[00:06:07] No, I'm kidding because I've done exactly the same thing.

[00:06:10] We've talked about this and most of the guest booking

[00:06:13] in the past was me and I would reach out

[00:06:16] and I'll tell you the percentage of men saying yes,

[00:06:18] is almost 100%.

[00:06:20] The percentage of women even getting a response

[00:06:23] is generally below 20%.

[00:06:26] We do want to talk to who we feel are thought leaders or doing really great things in talent

[00:06:32] acquisition.

[00:06:33] We need more women.

[00:06:34] We need that perspective because in reality, most people that work in our space, we saw

[00:06:39] it like at the recruiter event a couple of weeks ago, it was 70% women.

[00:06:44] So why are we not getting a representation

[00:06:46] of women on the show? Is it me? Maybe it's me, Shelley. Maybe they're like, oh, there's no way

[00:06:50] I want to talk to that dude. No, no, no. So you know what? I would like to call upon our audience

[00:06:56] and ask, please, if you have a TA leader in your circle, we'd love to have them on the show.

[00:07:05] I know the audience wants to hear about their leadership styles,

[00:07:09] how they organize their team, what are some of the,

[00:07:11] maybe the tech challenges or what they've been able to transform

[00:07:15] as far as their recruitment process or their employer brand.

[00:07:19] So if I'm missing something, help me out here.

[00:07:22] Let's call upon our audience.

[00:07:25] Do an introduction.

[00:07:26] That's all I want.

[00:07:27] Like, we'll be really nice.

[00:07:29] We're really organized too.

[00:07:31] Like, it's not the big stressful thing that people think it is.

[00:07:34] Like, we send out an interview guide in advance.

[00:07:38] But it's no gotcha questions.

[00:07:40] So you can be fully prepared or have your communications team read it,

[00:07:44] like what we're going to ask you.

[00:07:46] So there's very low risk and sharing knowledge is what we're all about.

[00:07:50] Yeah. We want more perspectives.

[00:07:53] And to that point, even if we look at talent acquisition leaders,

[00:07:57] I think that's one where we want to dig in most this year.

[00:08:00] And we got in that feedback in our listener service,

[00:08:03] we did probably a month ago

[00:08:05] that we want more practitioners and talent acquisition leaders on the show. And we're

[00:08:10] definitely wanting to deliver on that. But a big portion of that is being very intentional.

[00:08:16] And we want to bring a lot of women that are leading talent acquisition and also women

[00:08:21] that are leading HR tech firms. If you're interested, let's talk.

[00:08:25] We'd love to have you on.

[00:08:27] So, Shelley, it's time for us to jump into the news.

[00:08:33] And I thought we would focus on things that have gone a little bit viral.

[00:08:37] Have you ever heard of vice.com?

[00:08:39] Is that like a news outlet that you've ever read in the past?

[00:08:42] It was really big, like in the early 2000s to 2010

[00:08:47] maybe and then losses influence over the years. But do you know who they are?

[00:08:53] Well, I do now. I quite honestly like vaguely remember who they are. But yeah, you're right.

[00:08:59] They're not quite the household name that they were in the past.

[00:09:03] not quite the household name that they were in the past.

[00:09:08] Yeah, so they made the news this week and like most news organizations are struggling. They did massive layoffs. That's

[00:09:12] not what caused them to go viral. What caused them to go viral

[00:09:16] is as the chief commercial officer was going through the

[00:09:20] message, first of all, there were so many arms and arms and

[00:09:24] like nervous. I'm like,

[00:09:25] can't you get someone that can deliver this message in a confident way? But aside from the point,

[00:09:30] as they were doing this zoom call, suddenly announcing the layoffs and announcing the changes,

[00:09:36] a bunch of Tomstown emojis came up on the screen. So as this was happening,

[00:09:49] So as this was happening, the CEO Bruce Dixon stopped the meeting saying, hey, I can't ignore these emojis, the negative connotation of what's going on here.

[00:09:53] I think we stopped the meeting and we'll reschedule.

[00:09:56] Basically what he didn't realize, and this is really stupid.

[00:09:59] I'm like, if you don't want to see the emojis, you can turn those off and you can turn off

[00:10:03] any commenting.

[00:10:05] But like, dude, suck it up.

[00:10:07] All of these people are losing their jobs, the announcement,

[00:10:11] and they're just putting a thumbs down emoji.

[00:10:14] So to have the arrogance to come out and be like,

[00:10:17] how disrespectful and everything,

[00:10:19] all is your fault, you dummy?

[00:10:22] What was your whole take on this?

[00:10:24] My take on this, first of all, I'm with you like the chief

[00:10:28] commercial officer. She had clearly not even rehearsed what

[00:10:34] she was going to say. Yeah, it feels so awkward. And I'm

[00:10:38] looking at her and I can feel how disorganized and discombobulated she is.

[00:10:46] Like she's clearly flustered

[00:10:49] and is trying to get this message across

[00:10:52] but I don't believe she rehearsed it.

[00:10:54] It was like, hey, point, shoot, you're on, click go.

[00:10:58] So I felt really bad for her

[00:11:00] and even worse when the CEO jumps in, it cuts her off.

[00:11:05] And you can see them in their conference room.

[00:11:08] It's just, oh my goodness, so badly done.

[00:11:11] What were they thinking?

[00:11:13] Well, you know what?

[00:11:14] First of all, I think she was probably given this

[00:11:16] at the last minute being like,

[00:11:17] oh, you're going to deliver the message

[00:11:19] which just seems wrong in so many ways.

[00:11:22] I don't care what your title is,

[00:11:23] but this is as a leader, the CEO.

[00:11:26] If you're doing something that's going to negatively affect

[00:11:29] a whole lot of people, the message comes from you.

[00:11:32] You don't delegate that stuff at all, in my opinion.

[00:11:36] I don't know if you've noticed this,

[00:11:37] but there is like a tone deafness

[00:11:40] when it comes to executives in this current landscape,

[00:11:42] because I'm still reading a lot of articles.

[00:11:46] And we've seen the stories like in the past three, four months,

[00:11:50] we covered a lot of it of just not being on the same page as the employees.

[00:11:54] First of all, with this vice thing, just let it go.

[00:11:58] Just finish it.

[00:11:59] Like because he stopped it.

[00:12:00] They have to book another call and just disable the emojis.

[00:12:04] You're already 90% done. Just go through it and get it done. Do you think they should have stopped it. They have to book another call and just disable the emojis. You're already 90% done. Just go through it and get it done.

[00:12:08] Do you think they should have stopped it, shall we?

[00:12:10] I don't know. Like in the moment,

[00:12:13] it was probably the right thing to do.

[00:12:14] Not only was she fumbling and stumbling over what to say.

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:19] People were clearly upset because it was like a nonstop stream

[00:12:24] of thumbs down emojis. I do believe he

[00:12:27] should have stepped in and said something heartfelt. Like I realize this is a highly emotional like

[00:12:34] why did he not have her back rather than interrupt her and stop her it just goes to the core of what

[00:12:41] you were saying of how out of touch executives are because this is

[00:12:46] not affecting them. Yes, they have to deliver the message. That's what you're paid to do.

[00:12:52] But it's not affecting them. They're not losing their job. They're not.

[00:12:56] I think you nailed it when you said this. CEO could have jumped in with a heartfelt message and

[00:13:01] basically, hey, I understand how you guys feeling, but let's be respectful of what's going on.

[00:13:06] Something like that would have been received way more.

[00:13:08] But I do want to go away, I guess, into a more positive move.

[00:13:12] Okay.

[00:13:13] Shelly, we've talked about this and I've showed you my examples of when you're going out and

[00:13:16] looking for a job, right?

[00:13:18] Like I've created a portfolio of the work I've done.

[00:13:21] You can do similar things, right?

[00:13:23] Creating a video. There was this really enterprising young lady,

[00:13:27] Marta Purerto, that showed the example

[00:13:31] of what candidates can do to really stick out.

[00:13:34] Before we get into it, though, Shelley,

[00:13:36] I wanna get your thoughts here because

[00:13:38] one of the things that happens a lot to me is

[00:13:41] I got a lot of people applying for jobs,

[00:13:43] even though I am not even a recruiter, right?

[00:13:46] I'm getting tons of message from people that are like, hey, can you help me get a job?

[00:13:52] When I was a recruiter, nothing frustrated me more. And what was the most annoying thing of it is

[00:13:59] they were never qualified. Like I looked at their profile, I'm like, why the hell are you even reaching out to me? Why are you applying for this job? I see nothing in your history that says that

[00:14:10] you're qualified. Am I the only one that feels like that as a recruiter? Maybe it's unpopular,

[00:14:15] but who is giving people advice to go directly to the recruiters or the hiring managers?

[00:14:21] What you should be doing instead is building a brand ahead of the game and connecting

[00:14:26] with the people. So when you do need to leverage, we have a relationship, but cold emailing for

[00:14:32] applying for jobs. Am I wrong to be pissed off or not pissed off annoyed by it?

[00:14:39] So I think there's two things that we should maybe reflect on. And that is on LinkedIn as a platform.

[00:14:47] Yeah.

[00:14:48] You have the option as a recruiter to show anyone looking at the job who posted the job.

[00:14:56] Yeah.

[00:14:56] So if it says Shelly Billinghurst posted this job, so thereby encouraging people to reach out,

[00:15:02] right? Now that is completely appropriate if you are

[00:15:07] searching for say a vice president of IT. Yeah. If you are trying to find some very,

[00:15:17] very niche narrow skill like a PhD in biology and specifics in cellular breakdown prior to cancer treatment, right?

[00:15:29] Of course, you're going to put your name out there because there's only going to be 10

[00:15:33] people that apply.

[00:15:35] But that's not the case if you are recruiting jobs that would bring you 600 or 700 applicants.

[00:15:42] So we need to dial back and look at like, how did we get here?

[00:15:45] And where did this idea come from that it's somehow good advice to apply for the job on

[00:15:51] the applicant tracking system and then reach out to people directly. So I think your frustration

[00:15:57] is felt by many recruiters. I don't think anybody would disagree that the fact is I've got 350 people to review in the applicant

[00:16:06] tracking system. And then I'm also got to worry about people messaging me directly on LinkedIn.

[00:16:12] So, Shelley, are you saying that we actually review resumes on our applicant tracking system?

[00:16:17] I thought it was a robot. That's the message we're getting as well, right?

[00:16:22] Maybe it's a robot, but I think good recruiters will generally

[00:16:27] use some filters, which is not robots. It's filters. Like there's knockout questions in your

[00:16:33] applicant tracking system, right? Even people that choose not to answer the questions,

[00:16:38] I know recruiters will still generally look at the application, right? So we do have our work cut out for us.

[00:16:46] I think that's part of what has morphed into this.

[00:16:50] And quite honestly, this video that went viral

[00:16:54] from Marta Peruto is the fact that she had

[00:17:00] this light bulb moment that says, wait a minute,

[00:17:04] she noticed as she's applying for jobs, that

[00:17:07] there's 100 other applicants. Okay, so I get the desperation. If you know you're one of

[00:17:13] 300 or one of 700 people, you've got to do something differently. Like you mentioned,

[00:17:20] search as a job seeker getting super creative about how you show up. Sending somebody an

[00:17:28] in mail, it's like the amount of effort you put into something will typically be reciprocated.

[00:17:35] Yes. Sending out 50 in mails. What do you expect for a response? Really? What is your

[00:17:43] expectation?

[00:17:48] That's exactly the question, though, is like, I don't mind if they apply for the job and be like, send me a message, hey,

[00:17:51] heads up, I applied for this job, keep an eye on my resume.

[00:17:53] And that's completely different than, hey, let's meet for coffee

[00:17:56] and talk about the job. I'm looking at your resume, you're

[00:17:58] not qualified. So no, I don't have 15 30 minutes to waste

[00:18:04] talking about this

[00:18:05] unless, and I'm saying this as a corporate recruiter,

[00:18:08] if you're in staffing or anything like that,

[00:18:09] it makes potentially a lot of sense,

[00:18:11] but there's many factors, right?

[00:18:13] Are they qualified?

[00:18:15] Are they in the right location?

[00:18:17] Could they be a potential candidate for other roles?

[00:18:20] Like those are all things that we look at.

[00:18:22] But when you're applying for a job,

[00:18:24] I'll give you this advice.

[00:18:25] If you are qualified, the recruiter will find you.

[00:18:28] I guarantee you that they will find you in those applicants.

[00:18:32] But to your point, you have to stand out.

[00:18:35] So if you are going to reach out to people

[00:18:38] and have a really creative message

[00:18:40] or something that is just so different,

[00:18:43] because this lady, to your point, she really did something

[00:18:47] clever in the way she approached it. She's based in Madrid. She's a product marketing manager

[00:18:53] and she called her video Meet Martha the Movie. A couple of things that she highlighted like she

[00:18:58] speaks fluently in six languages. She talked about commendations from employers,

[00:19:05] culture, how about we just watch it

[00:19:06] actually. I'm going to play it right now.

[00:19:08] Then you can me your impression on it.

[00:19:10] Hi, I'm Marita.

[00:19:12] I recently got data from my job as a product

[00:19:15] marketing manager.

[00:19:19] I was in love with my job doing marketing

[00:19:21] in a company built for freelancers.

[00:19:24] But all of a sudden...

[00:19:30] I did a lot of thinking.

[00:19:33] Traveling.

[00:19:35] And of course, applying.

[00:19:38] I was applying to so many jobs that had hundreds of applicants

[00:19:41] and wasn't even getting an interview.

[00:19:43] All I wanted was to meet face-to-face.

[00:19:47] And then I realized I needed to be marketing a new product.

[00:19:55] There had to be a better way to grab people's attention and stand up from the crowd.

[00:20:01] I hope you've enjoyed the free version of Martha. If you'd like to see more, you'll have to go to the website.

[00:20:10] So Shelley, it's a video, so please everyone go check out the video. But it basically stops

[00:20:14] cold and be like free version ended. If you want to book an interview, click here. Just

[00:20:19] brilliant because literally anyone with an iPhone can create the same quality as she just did.

[00:20:26] Her video did go viral on LinkedIn.

[00:20:28] There was millions of views.

[00:20:30] Exactly.

[00:20:31] And widespread admiration for what she had done.

[00:20:34] Good on her.

[00:20:35] Here's the interesting thing

[00:20:37] when she has the light bulb moment

[00:20:39] is she realizes that what she is great at doing

[00:20:42] is marketing products.

[00:20:44] So she took her skills and expertise

[00:20:47] and made herself the product.

[00:20:49] Like, you really would expect that from a product marketer.

[00:20:53] And I think as recruiters,

[00:20:55] when we find ourselves laid off and looking for work,

[00:20:58] guess what?

[00:20:59] We expect more from you as well.

[00:21:02] You should come with a portfolio.

[00:21:04] You should come with data,

[00:21:05] analytics, testimonials from hiring managers to show up with a resume that is

[00:21:11] just a chronological representation of the companies that you worked for and

[00:21:15] you expect that's going to land you an interview? No. You are held to a higher

[00:21:20] standard. This is a beautiful example. So So well done, Marta. Well done.

[00:21:26] Yes, we are big fans. Shelly, how about we jump into the tip of the week?

[00:21:33] You bet tip of the week is brought to you by Plum. Plum knows that when people flourish,

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[00:22:03] So my tip of the week this week, Serge, is about being

[00:22:07] resourceful. That is finding ideas from other sources. So I wanted to share this

[00:22:14] with our audience because this subscription is free and we will include

[00:22:19] it in the show notes. You can get your hands on lists of layoffs, as

[00:22:26] well as strict to return to office mandates as a source of

[00:22:31] where to target for potential candidates. What is available

[00:22:35] now is the fact that when organizations are laying off

[00:22:41] more than a certain number of people. And again, I think in Canada, something like more than 10.

[00:22:48] Yeah.

[00:22:49] They must provide a heads up to the government to say,

[00:22:54] how many they're laying off, potentially the reason why,

[00:22:58] and when they plan to do it.

[00:23:01] So some larger organizations are required to give as much as 90 days notice

[00:23:06] if they intend to lay off thousands of people or hundreds of people. So as a recruiter, would you

[00:23:13] not want to have a layoff tracker? It's public information and it's free and certainly no

[00:23:21] employee should be in the dark either about layoffs coming up.

[00:23:25] But as recruiters, here's a resource

[00:23:27] you need to have at your fingertips.

[00:23:30] The other is this tracker also provides those organizations

[00:23:36] that have mandated very strict return to office policies

[00:23:40] such as five day in office mandates

[00:23:42] from the likes of Boeing and UPS, four-day requirements

[00:23:46] from Qualcomm or not allowing Friday's work-from-home days like Deutsche Bank. We know that according to

[00:23:55] all the research that we can get our hands on, Conference Board of Canada is a wonderful resource

[00:23:59] that tells us when workers are asked about what part of their total experience would cause

[00:24:05] them to look for another job.

[00:24:08] We know these mandates of return to office will cause people to start looking.

[00:24:15] Well, Jesus, if you've got a list of who's done this, it's like gold.

[00:24:20] So my tip of the week is this.

[00:24:22] Look in our show notes and you will see a connection

[00:24:25] to a free resource for layoffs and returned office mandates. And so happy recruiting.

[00:24:32] What is it called, Shelley? It is called talentedgeweekly.com.

[00:24:40] Yes. So what's cool about it is actually, you know, before it happens, I've been leveraging

[00:24:47] layoffs.fyi for five years, but that's always after the fact, right? And it's public. So that's

[00:24:54] another resource that you can leverage. But what I like about this, what it's actually before it

[00:24:58] really hits the public. This is a good time to get ahead of other recruiters that are as hungry as you are. So yes,

[00:25:05] good tip. Definitely check that out. And I do like to return to office mandates because that's

[00:25:10] another thing. I'm like, I'm just going to drive to their parking lot at their office and go put

[00:25:16] flyers in all of their windows that, hey, I'm hiring remotely. That would definitely work.

[00:25:22] That would definitely work. Perfect. Now let's jump into our recruitment insights brought to you by our friends at

[00:25:30] Mitova.

[00:25:32] Shelley, are you tired of the same old outsourcing woes?

[00:25:36] Well say hello to near-shoring. It's like outsourcing but closer and it won't make you

[00:25:41] pull your hair out.

[00:25:43] Picture this. Top notch IT talent from Latin American.

[00:25:46] Many Latin American IT professionals

[00:25:49] have strong English language skills

[00:25:51] and even live in the same time zone.

[00:25:53] So no more midnight conference calls.

[00:25:55] Hallelujah.

[00:25:57] Plus, Latin America's growing tech ecosystem,

[00:26:00] strong educational institutions,

[00:26:02] and a pool of skilled IT professionals make

[00:26:05] it the perfect region for recruiting talent.

[00:26:08] I have the perfect company that does this.

[00:26:11] The company's name is Mitova.

[00:26:13] They have local experts who handle everything from recruiting to HR support.

[00:26:18] So why settle for the same old outsourcing blues when you can have the near-shoring party

[00:26:24] with Mitova? same old outsourcing blues when you can have the near-shoring party with

[00:26:25] Mitova.

[00:26:26] Look them up at Mitova.com and let's get the Fiesta started.

[00:26:31] We've got a lot going on this week, so let's breeze through it as quickly as we

[00:26:37] can.

[00:26:38] So I came across an article from an author called Aki Ito and what she did is

[00:26:43] she experimented using bots to apply for jobs.

[00:26:47] And she looked at the, I think the four biggest, so she leveraged Senera, one salting AI, massive

[00:26:56] and lazy apply.

[00:26:57] And her experience was quite different with all of them.

[00:27:00] Let me give you a little bit of a breakdown. So the first one she tried was

[00:27:06] Cenera. So Cenera is $80 a month, which is the most expensive. And it will allow you to apply for

[00:27:13] 420 openings. So basically spent around half an hour is putting your resume completing your profile.

[00:27:21] And then Cenera came up with maybe a dozen jobs. As she was going through

[00:27:26] it, she got a message the next week being like, oh, by the way, the service is shutting down, so

[00:27:32] per $80 is down the tube, doesn't work. So now she went to one salting and this one was a lot

[00:27:38] cheaper, it's $20 in mine, but it ended up being pretty glitchy and didn't exactly work the way she

[00:27:46] wanted.

[00:27:47] So now she tried lazy apply.

[00:27:50] So they didn't have a monthly subscription offer.

[00:27:52] They had you had to purchase a lifetime plan of $129.

[00:27:57] So the 129 gave you the ability to submit to a maximum of 750 applications per day.

[00:28:05] Now you can actually get a more expensive plan

[00:28:07] that you can apply to more job.

[00:28:10] Unlike the other bots, Lazy apply

[00:28:13] in just jobs from all the external job boards.

[00:28:16] So LinkedIn, Indeed, it recruiters,

[00:28:19] she had to tie her profile to it

[00:28:21] and then she just said it loose.

[00:28:24] What was different about this one?

[00:28:25] Alazy applied to all the applying in real time.

[00:28:28] It's basically a bot that's applying.

[00:28:30] It feels like someone just like is taking over

[00:28:33] your computer is applying to all of these jobs.

[00:28:36] It's a couple of the things that happened.

[00:28:38] So we've talked about AI hallucinating a little bit

[00:28:41] and just making up things.

[00:28:42] Well, I guess what it did.

[00:28:44] So in one application, the bot indicated that I speak

[00:28:48] conversational level Spanish, which she definitely does not.

[00:28:52] And another, it reported that I was an African American,

[00:28:57] even though I had specified my lazy apply profile that I am Asian.

[00:29:02] And as she's going through it, some of the things really started being not right.

[00:29:07] She noticed that Lazy Apply wasn't using the updated resume I had given. Instead, it was attaching

[00:29:13] a document I didn't recognize title. Aki Ito, cover letter resume, links were insider.pdf.

[00:29:20] That's strange, I thought. And then when she opened the PDF, it was dated October 24, 2020,

[00:29:27] and it read, Dear Mr. Carlson,

[00:29:29] I'm writing to apply for the Analytical Features Edition position at Insider.

[00:29:34] Instead of sending out the updated resume I provided,

[00:29:37] Lazy Apply was submitting an all-covered letter it had found buried

[00:29:42] in the depths of my LinkedIn account from when I had applied to

[00:29:46] Business Insider three years ago. So in a single-spirt 27 employers ranging from a website that I never

[00:29:54] heard of and then the Boston Globe received an application from me that I talked about how much

[00:29:59] I wanted to work for one of their competitors. Lazy Apply was living up to his name.

[00:30:06] Couple of interesting thing as we dig in deeper,

[00:30:09] she got a 6% response rate on these jobs.

[00:30:13] That of these thousands applicants,

[00:30:15] she probably got like 60 callbacks,

[00:30:17] but the harm has been done, in my opinion.

[00:30:21] It shows that, yeah, 27 companies got a cover letter of you applying

[00:30:28] to another job. Like, how good is that for your brand?

[00:30:31] Shelley, what's your whole take here? Yeah. So when I saw this as well, I was like, as

[00:30:40] a recruiter, I can tell you back in the day, when cover letters were maybe a thing,

[00:30:46] they're coming back in style because now they're easy to do with chat, Chippity.

[00:30:51] I can't begin to tell you like nine times out of 10, I may be exaggerating a little.

[00:30:56] The candidate forgot to change the address and name of the company in the cover letter,

[00:31:01] which is very damaging.

[00:31:03] Like really, if you can't get the name right, attention to detail is not your thing. And it is a lather rinse repeat

[00:31:11] exercise if you want to cover letter. I'm only going to write one and send it out with

[00:31:14] all of them. What really scared me was the fact that it went into her history and her

[00:31:22] back catalog for lack of a better word, but it was like it took over her

[00:31:27] computer and just started sending them out. I don't know in what world sending out 750 applications

[00:31:36] is manageable for anyone. No, it's not. So 6% getting callbacks, that is really good.

[00:31:45] So 6% getting callbacks, that is really good.

[00:31:48] When you consider you're just randomly applying. The fact is though, you get back what you put out.

[00:31:53] I agree and I think going back to example of Marta

[00:31:57] that we just talked about is she's very targeted,

[00:32:00] decided to create a strategy to make her a preferred candidate

[00:32:04] and it works.

[00:32:05] The spamming of jobs is not helping anyone.

[00:32:09] It's actually affecting the market dramatically.

[00:32:12] It is creating so much noise that recruiters who are understaffed right now

[00:32:17] are getting 1000 of applicants.

[00:32:19] And what's real?

[00:32:19] What's not like, how can you even be qualified for 750 jobs in your local market or even remotely?

[00:32:29] I don't even know how that is possible.

[00:32:32] Like if I go on LinkedIn right now,

[00:32:34] or indeed, and I type in our local,

[00:32:37] there's maybe 10 jobs that I'm fully qualified

[00:32:40] and I should apply for.

[00:32:42] How am I applying to 750 jobs?

[00:32:44] Just seems ridiculous.

[00:32:46] And it's going to get worse, Shelley.

[00:32:49] We are very close to robots interviewing robots.

[00:32:52] And I think this will help drive it.

[00:32:54] But on that note, digging into a candid experience even more, I want to talk about

[00:33:00] rejection emails and you can cross something that was really interesting.

[00:33:04] So once again, I'm a fan of some of the big five accounting firms. about rejection emails and you came across something that was really interesting.

[00:33:05] So once again, I'm a fan of some of the big five accounting firms.

[00:33:10] Ernst & Young apparently remembers me.

[00:33:14] I was test driving a few years ago with their application process just as part of our research for the show.

[00:33:20] But it remembered me because it sent me a rejection email that was really interesting.

[00:33:28] And it made me think of a few things.

[00:33:29] First of all, it said, Hi, Shelley wanted to follow up on my last emails about applying

[00:33:35] to Ernst & Young and keeping your CV specific to those applications.

[00:33:40] So it's a rejection email, but they go on to explain about why the application was rejected.

[00:33:49] And I think what I use to apply, as I usually do when I'm test driving, is I have an award-winning

[00:33:56] chili recipe, and I upload that rather than my resume.

[00:34:00] Interesting.

[00:34:01] To see how it handles that. And not that they looked at my chili recipe or not, but at any rate, it made me think about

[00:34:10] the fact that they crafted a response that said, your resume was nowhere close without

[00:34:17] coming right out and saying that you're completely unqualified.

[00:34:21] Well, I sent them a chili recipe.

[00:34:23] So it's got some intelligence

[00:34:26] here. But what was interesting was it gave me coaching tips about why my application was rejected.

[00:34:34] It said, read the email we just sent you very carefully because we will always advise you on

[00:34:39] the reasons why you've not been successful. Secondly, think about what you applied for. And this is all in a single email.

[00:34:46] It's EY branded, it's lovely.

[00:34:49] Then recommending that I review my resume.

[00:34:53] Like it says, we're not expecting you

[00:34:56] to rewrite your resume for every application,

[00:34:59] but maybe have a few people take a look at it for you

[00:35:01] and give you some feedback.

[00:35:03] And then lastly, don't be put off by this. Just because it's no for now, it does not mean no forever. A really

[00:35:10] nice message from Ernst & Young, but it also made me think, first of all, they understand

[00:35:19] that they have a pool of people that know their brand. They have a pool of people that took the time

[00:35:25] to fill in their application.

[00:35:27] And it's got to be two years ago,

[00:35:30] Serge, that I put in any sort of application

[00:35:34] or test drove their application process.

[00:35:36] And yet I stay in their system, right?

[00:35:40] So it just made me think they must be utilizing

[00:35:44] some technology.

[00:35:45] And I think as TA leaders, we have this opportunity.

[00:35:48] When recruiters are rejecting resumes or the systems rejecting it

[00:35:52] or the robots rejecting it, whatever, there's always a reason.

[00:35:56] Right? And the reason code could be this person is no indication

[00:36:02] of legally able to work in the country.

[00:36:04] And it says right through the application process,

[00:36:06] we need to know if you have a work permit.

[00:36:09] So that would garner a disposition reason code

[00:36:13] or disposition reason code

[00:36:15] is it doesn't meet minimum qualifications.

[00:36:18] So this is all data that you as a TA leader can look at

[00:36:22] and say, we've got a trend happening here.

[00:36:25] And part of that trend could be that we're attracting people

[00:36:29] that have no previous experience in accounting, for example.

[00:36:35] And so then it becomes the roadmap for what TA needs to do.

[00:36:40] TA needs to understand we need to change our messaging if we've got hundreds of applicants

[00:36:47] applying to us from certain countries.

[00:36:50] There must be a perception in that country that we will sponsor work permits.

[00:36:55] Hey, you know what?

[00:36:57] Now you know what to do, right?

[00:36:58] But all of this is really juicy data about how to improve your candidate experience. That was a long-winded

[00:37:07] answer to your question.

[00:37:09] I know I love it and you know when you sent that article it really hit me because I had

[00:37:13] just read Bradley Clark, friend of the show, and her a reg test, Rott Tex, and also the

[00:37:21] talent acquisition lead at article, the furniture company base in Vancouver.

[00:37:26] And credit to Bradley because he's been really working hard and creating a standard for how his

[00:37:34] recruiters reject candidates. And there's a couple of things that came out that I thought

[00:37:38] was really interesting. So his goal is, when sure applicants don't go into a black hole,

[00:37:44] we've had times in our talent acquisition departments that candidates have gone into

[00:37:48] black holes.

[00:37:49] Either with the transition of ATS or recruiter leaving, there's something that's happened,

[00:37:54] and you get to put the steps in place to make sure that no candidate goes into a black hole.

[00:37:59] A lot of times it takes a long time, and really what he's put in place is a way to get to

[00:38:04] message really quickly out to candidates so they know where they stand and to your point

[00:38:09] last week, no is an answer, right?

[00:38:12] I think that's what he's trying to do.

[00:38:14] There's one thing that he called out that I think is really interesting.

[00:38:17] So in his post, he said, we've recently seen a trend of non-local candidates applying.

[00:38:22] Yes, there is a possibility for non-local applicants

[00:38:25] to be hired. However, for this to happen, they would need to be better than local candidates.

[00:38:30] Hiring locally is faster for them to start easier to interview and less risky for business.

[00:38:36] I get it. Of course, you want to hire people that are close to your office in the same city

[00:38:42] or where the case is. You crafted a really good message to people

[00:38:46] that are non-local.

[00:38:47] What I found interesting is reading the comments

[00:38:50] on his post.

[00:38:52] Some of it, I'm like,

[00:38:53] tell me that you've never recruited when you post this.

[00:38:56] So whether the comments is,

[00:38:58] can I ask what value rejecting a candidate based on locale

[00:39:02] brings in why mentioned rejection email.

[00:39:07] Why not mention it, right? If you're going to hire locally, it makes a lot of sense.

[00:39:10] Then there's another one that just drove me insane.

[00:39:13] It's screaming bias.

[00:39:16] How is this creating any bias?

[00:39:18] If you're a recruiter and getting hundreds of non qualified

[00:39:23] applicants from all different parts of the world.

[00:39:26] And your job is try to fill the job as quickly as possible.

[00:39:30] Guess what? There's nothing wrong with filtering those candidates out.

[00:39:35] He does clearly state like if there is not a better local candidate, yeah, they're going to go through the steps.

[00:39:40] But we have all seen what those steps are. They take a

[00:39:45] long time. As we mentioned before, notice periods in different countries can be two months,

[00:39:51] can be three months, can be six months. You have to move to come to this location. Like

[00:39:57] it doesn't make any sense. So saying it's bias saying that is just complete bullshit.

[00:40:02] That might be bias on my end, but I'm with Bradley.

[00:40:05] Hire local if you can, if you can't, then you do what you got to do.

[00:40:10] I think your point is well taken surge because this is, tell me you've never recruited without

[00:40:16] telling me you've never recruited. You would never say that. I think my first year of being a recruiter

[00:40:22] is when you are looking, you need to look at who's within

[00:40:27] your local market first. In fact, why wouldn't you? Because once you expand it, I think an

[00:40:34] ethical employer needs to consider relocation. So even if you look at the ground rules of posting on Indeed, if you are going to specifically

[00:40:46] advertise a job, say province-wide, or advertise a job where it's not driving distance, you

[00:40:55] must indicate on your job posting that relocation is provided or something to indicate that

[00:41:02] relocation allowance is considered.

[00:41:05] But you can't just simply splatter advertising this job across Canada and

[00:41:11] not have any sort of expectation.

[00:41:14] In fact, it's our responsibility as recruiters.

[00:41:17] You should not even be entertaining anyone until you've exhausted your local

[00:41:22] market.

[00:41:23] I would also point to our federal government mandates this.

[00:41:28] If you're going to consider somebody from out of Canada,

[00:41:32] you need to first of all demonstrate

[00:41:34] in a very long complicated process

[00:41:38] called the labor market impact assessment.

[00:41:41] You need to undertake and you need to prove

[00:41:43] to the federal government that

[00:41:45] there is nobody here locally that is qualified.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:49] It's you're right.

[00:41:50] My hair was on fire as well when I'm reading this and I'm thinking, do you just come

[00:41:53] in office stupid?

[00:41:54] Like you really are like you're coming across as obviously never had to work in recruitment.

[00:42:00] Like maybe was it his choice of words, local or non low?

[00:42:04] No, I don't think any of this is biased or offensive.

[00:42:07] In fact, it's just the opposite.

[00:42:10] It's just the opposite.

[00:42:11] We're treating these candidates with respect

[00:42:15] in dignity and being like,

[00:42:16] this is exactly why we're not moving you forward.

[00:42:20] If the case is that the person is moving to the country

[00:42:24] on that day and is specified that, well, that's a different story because you are 100% right.

[00:42:28] Anyone that's listening that has done the labor market impact assessment process will tell you you do those when you really need to do those.

[00:42:38] I think there's exception, right?

[00:42:39] If you're hiring software developers or things that you're going to hire remotely. That's a different job, right?

[00:42:45] That's a different situation.

[00:42:48] If you're hiring people to come in the office, you got to cover your ass.

[00:42:50] So that's my take on it.

[00:42:52] Shelly, another fantastic episode next week.

[00:42:57] We will be back.

[00:42:58] We'll be back from Montreal and I'll have all the highlights of the Montreal

[00:43:02] Toronto game.

[00:43:03] And you can tell me about your fantastic dinner with

[00:43:07] very handsome rich French men that you're going to find in a store while you're shopping.

[00:43:13] That's wishful thinking but thank you for putting that out to the universe, Serge.

[00:43:17] I appreciate that it comes from your heart that you would just see me enjoying a lovely dinner with

[00:43:23] your heart that you would just see me enjoying a lovely dinner with the

[00:43:29] lovely join us at the Barbie barn and getting some wings and ribs if you're cool with that.

[00:43:30] Yeah, you guys go ahead.

[00:43:32] You guys go ahead.

[00:43:33] All right, Shelley, thank you everyone for listening.

[00:43:36] Merci.

[00:43:38] Or why do you love news about LinkedIn, indeed, Google and just about every other

[00:43:44] recruitment tech company out there.

[00:43:45] Hell yeah, I'm Chad. I'm cheese. We're the Chad and Cheese Podcast. All the latest recruiting news and

[00:43:52] insights are on our show. Dripping in snark and attitude. Subscribe today wherever you listen to

[00:43:59] your podcasts. We out.