Travel with Purpose: Jeff Muntifering on Conservation Travel

[00:00:00] I mean, if you've ever tried a moment to look into the eyes of a cheetah and there's nothing

[00:00:10] more powerful in those big golden eyes looking back at you and the the tear stripes it's just

[00:00:17] kind of it's just screaming sort of help me and and take care of me.

[00:00:22] That moment I just I felt completely inspired to make a difference that kind of became my my calling card.

[00:00:33] From small town America and the Midwestern region of the United States to the majestic

[00:00:40] southwestern plains of Africa in Namibia, it's been a long journey for Jeff

[00:00:45] month of hearing to get where he is today. Jeff is no stranger to answering a call to adventure

[00:00:51] while pursuing sports medicine in college. It was a love at first sight that changed his destiny.

[00:00:56] That love was not found in a person, but in a magical moment with a cheetah that began a lifetime

[00:01:03] career in wildlife conservation. Jeff is very easy to talk to. His roots are thick with his

[00:01:10] salt of the earth demeanor however it is clear his heart belongs to Africa. He has lived there

[00:01:16] now longer than the states and his wife and kids were born there. He is diplomatic and thoughtful

[00:01:21] in his response and you can see why he's a powerful advocate and skilled at having the hard

[00:01:26] conversations necessary for his line of work. I'm going to call this interview a light shiner

[00:01:32] into new ways of thought not just in his conservation efforts but in how we live our lives.

[00:01:39] Who knows, this might just inspire you to answer your own call to adventure.

[00:01:46] Well, welcome to the postcard travel show Jeff. What a privilege and pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:53] Tell me a little bit more about where you're sitting right now.

[00:01:57] I am sitting on the Southwestern coast of an amazing country called Namibia just up from South Africa.

[00:02:07] The western coastline here and it is cold and foggy and probably something you wouldn't picture

[00:02:13] being in the desert but that is where I spend most of my time if I'm not in the actual desert

[00:02:20] which is not far east of here where it's nice and warm and sunny. So we get all sorts of

[00:02:26] worlds here in Namibia. Can you explain what it looks like outside your door, like the terrain?

[00:02:32] Well, it's a pretty incredible view actually. We literally stay here on my family and I sandwiched

[00:02:41] between the sea on one side and sand. There's a sort of stretch of sand dunes almost in our back

[00:02:50] you already hear on the coast and it's a small little beach community sort of about 10 miles

[00:02:56] between two larger cities at Walvis Bay which actually has an airport and Swapit Moon

[00:03:02] which is a cute little tourist destination and then from here it's about a five hour drive up

[00:03:09] to our conservation areas that we spend most of our time working in. The reason I ask is it's

[00:03:16] hard to conceptualize what that would look like if you've never been and especially for someone

[00:03:22] like me in the states which you are well familiar with you can tell by your accent that you're not

[00:03:27] actually a native where are you from Jeff? I grew up in central Minnesota about an hour and a half

[00:03:34] northwest of Minneapolis St. Paul small small town called Sartel right on the Mississippi River which

[00:03:41] I guess isn't so small anymore but yeah. So that's quite a difference so tell me how you got from

[00:03:48] Minnesota to Namibia? Yeah it's a it is a long story but the short of it or the beginning of it

[00:03:56] I shall say came through an experience that I had while I was in college I made the big leap from

[00:04:02] my hometown 50 miles to St. John's Minnesota which is a great small liberal art school

[00:04:09] I was a sports medicine major and during my junior year I had a friend who played football with who

[00:04:16] decided that we should probably go to Africa for a study abroad program and it just so happened

[00:04:22] to St. John's actually had a professor from South Africa who was teaching at St. John's

[00:04:28] at the time and helped set up a program and we rounded up some friends made the trip

[00:04:34] and just as I think often people do just fell in love with Africa. The people, the environment

[00:04:43] and while I was there I was able to experience some time in the bush as we call it

[00:04:48] over here in the African wilderness and wildlife and had a very special moment with

[00:04:55] with a captive cheetah that I'll never forget. I always kind of consider that to be one of my watershed

[00:05:00] moments and if you've ever had a moment to look into the eyes of a cheetah there's nothing more

[00:05:06] powerful those big golden you know eyes looking back at you and the the tear stripes it's just kind

[00:05:13] of it's just screaming sort of help me and and take care of me and that moment I just I felt

[00:05:22] completely inspired to make a difference that kind of became my my calling card and became my new

[00:05:31] purpose was to figure out you know how to get back to Africa to say cheetahs I went back to Minnesota

[00:05:37] after the study abroad program worked in warehouses tap holes and steel to save up enough money

[00:05:43] and at a fortuitous meeting with another ex-pat from the US who had started the Cheetah Conservation

[00:05:49] in a place called Namibia in the early 90s and I had been lucky enough to be working on a wolf

[00:05:55] research program in Minnesota and one of the activities that I happen to have had some experience with

[00:06:03] was doing some dietary analysis so in other words picking through poop to see what they were eating

[00:06:11] and as soon as I mentioned that to Lori in our meeting which happened to be at a at a zoo conference

[00:06:17] her eyes got very big and she said well I have a box of cheetah poop in the US and if you're

[00:06:22] willing to bring that with you to Namibia you are more than welcome to come and join us

[00:06:29] in our efforts to save cheetahs so you know what are not many two years old yeah beggars can't be

[00:06:34] choosers um you never know where a box of cheetah poop is gonna get you but it got me so

[00:06:39] oh wait wait wait you so you actually brought the cheetah who uh with you on the plane

[00:06:47] it was in a box it was delivered to my parents house it was a bunch of small little samples in

[00:06:53] test tubes with formaldehyde yeah if you've ever smelled formaldehyde combined with cat

[00:07:00] excrement it is a pretty horrific smell and I got a lot of dirty looks at the at the airport

[00:07:06] and during the flight but yeah this was before 9-11 when you could bring basically anything on

[00:07:11] the plane that was my invitation so yeah you just you just floated right through security they were

[00:07:20] like oh this man let him go no questions asked but take off your shoes sir exactly it's it's only Cheetah

[00:07:30] of a butthalaria okay so you had this this moment with the cheetah that then like also led you to

[00:07:35] this bigger moment in conservation and so you're 22 years old you decide that this is your life

[00:07:41] path then essentially your call to adventure which we'll get more into because here was journey is

[00:07:47] a big part of of the ethos of your company and so tell me more about how this then grew into

[00:07:57] something bigger well you know I think when when you pursue something like conservation particularly

[00:08:04] at an early age you know you the most important thing and the advice I always give young

[00:08:10] aspiring conservationist is you got to get out there you got to get out in the world you got

[00:08:14] to get some experience get to know people and oftentimes that also involves doing some traveling

[00:08:21] and I think that's kind of the best part of pursuing a career path and conservation is not only do you

[00:08:26] get to I think have a lot of purpose in your life and you know feeling good about your day

[00:08:32] and that what you're doing is making a difference but you get to see some pretty awesome places too

[00:08:37] and you know I realized perhaps a little bit more recently how important the travel dimension was

[00:08:44] in kind of shaping you know my conservation path so while I built up experience working on different

[00:08:53] projects around the world over about a two to three year period you know I was also able to really

[00:09:01] I think enjoy and benefit from the experiences that that travel into remote areas

[00:09:09] into authentic places with communities also can can provide and you know I just happen to then

[00:09:16] settle upon this place called Namibia and that's where you started your family correct exactly

[00:09:24] tell me a little bit more about did you did you meet your wife there or yeah so about three or four

[00:09:32] years after I guess I had more or less settled down in Namibia we had already started doing a lot

[00:09:38] of research conservation work with tourism companies so I'm up in the northwest part of Namibia which

[00:09:45] is a big kind of wild remote area there's a number of of high end tourism lodges take people out

[00:09:52] see the landscapes and the wildlife and they kind of go hand in hand up in that area and I had

[00:10:01] happened to meet a couple women who were working for the company called wilderness safaris that

[00:10:07] we were doing a lot of work with one of them also happened to be sort of just out of college

[00:10:12] and was pursuing a master's degree was looking for a project and I was at the time running semester

[00:10:20] abroad field programs for a company called the Round River Conservation Studies we were bringing in

[00:10:24] American students spending three months you know twice a year working with Saber the Rhino Trust

[00:10:31] who we'd recently partnered with and my wife to be Bessili I was like I said looking for a project

[00:10:37] asked me if I had any openings and I said sure come on up and how one thing led to another and

[00:10:45] she became of course the main reason why I decided to make Namibia home. Way better story than a dating

[00:10:52] app. How wonderful it is to share a passion with your partner like that and then also she contributes

[00:11:01] to your company now full circle safaris and studies correct yeah I mean both of us have a you know

[00:11:08] background in tourism my my facility at Ustash you know spend about seven years working for a

[00:11:14] tourism company whereas I've just sort of now made the shift just a few years ago with with the full

[00:11:20] circle company you know prior to that I had kind of worked together with the tourism industry but

[00:11:26] wearing a conservation at so a bit of a big step but yeah I mean it's it's great we can

[00:11:32] celebrate in the good things and of course have each other as a soundboard when things aren't

[00:11:39] always going right so it's it's a good combination. Definitely we've said the word conservation a lot

[00:11:46] during this interview and I want to kind of clear up what that actually means because it's kind

[00:11:51] of become a buzzword over the last several years and so it sounds nice but I wanted to to get

[00:11:57] a clearer depiction of what does it mean when you're using it and what is especially in the

[00:12:02] context of safaris and zoos. Right I mean conservation I think means different things to different people

[00:12:08] it's not a simple definition really and to me it's it's really more especially I think as I've

[00:12:16] been out I would say sort of doing conservation over the past 20 years now is it really boils

[00:12:22] down to people and you know it's it's it's more of a verb to me to conserve and to make decisions

[00:12:30] that have positive outcomes for the natural world you know the way that we have structured our

[00:12:38] conservation strategies particularly here in Namibia I would say has a perhaps a more unconventional

[00:12:46] focus on also producing benefits for people and doing that very consciously in the hope and

[00:12:54] belief that by finding ways that conservation behaviors enrich people's lives you know we have a

[00:13:02] better chance not only of being successful for the wildlife and wild places that we want to protect

[00:13:07] but also make it more lasting and more sustainable because people are doing it not just because

[00:13:14] they think it's the right thing to do but because they can see and they can feel you know tangible

[00:13:19] benefits by making those decisions. You are an international conservation biologist with the Minnesota

[00:13:25] Zoo Foundation there is some controversy surrounding zoos as in some are against the captivity

[00:13:31] of animals however others disagree and say that to care about the animals you first must have exposure

[00:13:37] can you talk more about this? Yeah sure I think this comes up quite a bit and I think certainly when

[00:13:45] you look at the history of zoos you know what people think the the perception is sort of this animal

[00:13:52] in this like almost prison-like cage with this cement floor kind of getting fed you know scraps

[00:13:59] through the bars and I suppose there may still be a few zoos like that but the vast majority

[00:14:05] and particularly accredited zoos now are far cry from that image and what zoos used to be.

[00:14:12] There are massive incentives for zoos to be incredibly creative with their exhibit design

[00:14:18] making them as natural as possible but I think at least for me and of course from my perspective

[00:14:25] what's been really inspiring is the big shift that zoos are moving to support and to demonstrate more

[00:14:33] direct support for conservation outside of the zoo so you know one can argue that just the zoo being

[00:14:40] there as an education outlet is perhaps doing some conservation but I think contributing you know to

[00:14:50] the protection of the habitat for the species especially which a house at their zoo is becoming

[00:14:56] much more much more common and I think much more mandated by the zoo fraternity particularly I think

[00:15:03] the leaders you know in this sort of community and you know the other thing too Liz is that

[00:15:12] I would be willing to doubt and I mean we already talked about my experience but I would be

[00:15:16] willing to say that the vast majority of conservationists that do conservation in the wild can

[00:15:22] probably go back to a point pivotal point in their career and their trajectory as a conservationist

[00:15:30] to some experience that they had in a captive setting whether it was their local zoo or a captive

[00:15:37] breeding center something that inspired them to get out there and make a difference so you know our

[00:15:44] zoos perfect by any means absolutely not but I think they've done a lot to improve themselves I

[00:15:51] continue to do a lot for conservation I absolutely agree with what you're saying I think anybody that

[00:15:58] I grew up with that was especially passionate about an animal had it was because they had a moment

[00:16:03] just as you described with the cheetah of that this was something that they really cared about I

[00:16:08] remember I I loved to rang a tang as a child and it was because I went to the zoo when I

[00:16:13] saw their rang a tang and I just thought that they were the best animals ever yeah the you know

[00:16:17] the other thing that I could add to is you know I think in 50 years ago when zoos were establishing

[00:16:23] themselves they were capturing animals from the wild and bringing them in but you know that's

[00:16:29] long gone now the vast majority of animals that are in zoos they would never survive in the wild

[00:16:36] anyway there are fourth fifth sixth generation you know of zoo bred animals and I think it's it's

[00:16:43] better to sort of see them as ambassadors for their species and that like you said they they're

[00:16:48] inspiring other people they're teaching people that maybe can't make it to Africa but when you see

[00:16:54] a black rhino at the zoo in the US you know that might inspire you to do something more for that species

[00:17:04] or for conservation even in your backyard what are some of the challenges and rewards of this type of

[00:17:10] well the challenges are many you know it's one of those careers I think where you know you're

[00:17:18] constantly kind of pummeled by doom and gloom right it's hard many days to see the light at the

[00:17:26] end of the tunnel especially with critically endangered species I mean you know with rhino for example

[00:17:32] we deal with the poaching threat on a daily basis you know fortunately we've we've had

[00:17:37] really good success I think in the mbias you know you know these are animals that you

[00:17:41] protected your whole life for you some some of them you've you've helped raise and orphanages

[00:17:48] you know just really heartbreaking the other challenge that I have to say is going back to again

[00:17:54] a lot of our work is with communities and focusing on engaging and empowering local people and

[00:18:01] protecting wildlife and if you think working with wildlife is difficult trying to understand and

[00:18:08] find ways to motivate people is even a bigger challenge this issue of funding making sure that

[00:18:15] you have funding into the future that you can pay your angels you know that you can make sure that

[00:18:21] they have the equipment and the support that they need to do your job you know that's always weighing

[00:18:26] in the back of your head it's not just getting up going to the office punching in punching out you're

[00:18:31] just you're never you're never off you're always on basically but the rewards are equally as as

[00:18:38] numerous too I mean I I try and kind of live by a mantra of going to bed inspired and tired

[00:18:46] you know if I'm not both of those then I didn't quite have a great day so I really like that

[00:18:53] going to bed inspired and tired yeah in conservation you you often have both of those you know you

[00:19:02] want to get back up and and make a difference the next day but boy your body your mind everything

[00:19:09] is pretty exhausted at the end of the day I can tell that like this is something that you're probably

[00:19:14] versus one of your skill sets you know is finding compromises finding these full solutions is finding

[00:19:20] a space where everyone can win instead of lose you have mentioned the rhino several times and I

[00:19:26] want to know more about that tell me a little bit more about that and why the rhino yeah so save the

[00:19:32] rhino trust has always been an inspiration you know since I first was introduced to them you know

[00:19:40] just over 20 years ago save the rhino just celebrated their 40th anniversary last year so I think

[00:19:46] that alone kind of tells you the longevity that you know this organization has had here in

[00:19:52] Namibia and you know and across Africa the longest running rhino conservation organization in

[00:19:57] the world now and I think what's so what's most impressive and at least what I think inspired me

[00:20:04] from from the beginning was that it's almost entirely composed of people from the local community

[00:20:12] and these are essentially local farmers that were you know grew up looking after livestock had

[00:20:20] developed this incredible skill set of being in the bush being in nature and of course tracking wild

[00:20:26] animals and it was part of the the late founding director glyphine uti of save the rhino

[00:20:35] back in the early 80s when she founded the organization to take a very unconventional approach in the

[00:20:41] way that she sought to stop the rapid poaching that was taking place at the time and instead of

[00:20:48] sort of vilifying you know the local people that often got sort of entrapped into poaching by being

[00:20:55] bribe by you know these poaching syndicates you know she started to see them as actually part of

[00:21:01] the solution and that you know these these these local people were just trying to survive and

[00:21:06] by providing them with a more sustainable means of supporting themselves and their families

[00:21:12] through employment and using their skills to look after rhinos instead of killing them

[00:21:17] but that might actually help hold the line against poachers and you know that doesn't sound like

[00:21:23] a really innovative idea now but 40 years ago it sure was you know and they took a lot of flak

[00:21:30] you know they were threatened constantly to be shut down by the government but she persisted and

[00:21:37] you know it became a really big success story and you know I think working for such a pure

[00:21:43] grassroots organization like that was what really drew me in and you know kind of going on from

[00:21:49] our last little discussion too about you know how I've managed to to have impact is you know

[00:21:56] what when I came in to join save the rhino I didn't have any intentions whatsoever to kind of

[00:22:02] you know take over and and lead from the front it was really more about providing sort of a

[00:22:09] adding value I guess is the best way to describe it and providing some some additional support that

[00:22:16] perhaps wasn't wasn't there but on the technical side more of the science side so in 2003 2004

[00:22:25] I accepted a science advisory position you know that became embedded within save their rhino so

[00:22:31] looking after their research looking after their their database and they've established you know the

[00:22:37] longest running database for any black rhino organization in the world again going back many decades

[00:22:44] we know all of our rhinos we identify them by name by the earbarks and the horn shape track

[00:22:51] mothers through all of their all of their offspring some of them seven eight generations long

[00:22:59] and all that information is critical to help better manage the population up in the northwest part

[00:23:04] of the country so it's a great team to be a part of super interesting I your a typical day for you

[00:23:12] is is you do probably go to bed inspired and tired

[00:23:16] so I know that you are a man who likes challenges or at least can handle a challenge as you started your

[00:23:23] company in 2020 at the height of a historic pandemic um so tell me a little bit more about full

[00:23:32] circle studies and safaris. Full circle was something that I had sort of on the back burner for

[00:23:40] many years it's I just didn't have the time and being fully employed by the Minnesota Zoo prior to

[00:23:46] to covid you know I wasn't sure how exactly it would work out either even though I like challenges

[00:23:51] I don't also like to go into something kind of halfway I do it or I don't do it so it sort of was

[00:23:57] just sitting there and you know during covid I like many ended up losing my position and rather than

[00:24:06] you know be too depressed and disappointed I sort of sought as as a good moment to consider

[00:24:14] something new and you know even though I knew tourism was was obviously one of the hardest hit

[00:24:19] industries during the pandemic I also knew that the pandemic was not going to be forever and that

[00:24:26] tourism would come back and it would come back very strong and kind of that that notion combined with

[00:24:35] again some fortuitous connections with this great community of practice called the Transformation

[00:24:42] Tribal Council where I became connected with through a colleague in Nepal you know it's sort of helped

[00:24:49] piece together I guess the outstanding elements that kind of kept me also a bit a bit reluctant

[00:24:57] especially around kind of the nuts and bolts of actually making the jump into tourism as a business

[00:25:02] versus you know tourism as a partner organization that you work with I was able to take a six-month

[00:25:10] course in in Transformation Tribal Design led by the council and that's how I became introduced

[00:25:18] to the hero's journey Joseph Campbell and it all just kind of came together and was a really

[00:25:26] watershed moment for me and it's kind of a no-brainer then to take it forward and create full

[00:25:32] circle the full circle studies catered to current tourism professionals and also aspiring conservation

[00:25:39] students which is unique and you also focus a lot on the younger generation so tell me a little bit

[00:25:46] more about all these unique aspects to full circle studies and Safari so so full circle kind of had

[00:25:56] had two meanings to me one was was you know the kind of literal circle that that the hero's journey

[00:26:03] you know talks about you know having that call to adventure going out having those battles

[00:26:08] something dies within you something's reborn and you come back to your normal world and you know

[00:26:15] are changed and in addition to that kind of theoretical underpinning which I which I think is

[00:26:22] beautiful it's it's a really great way to think about how to optimize your travel experience

[00:26:28] for the good it was also my own kind of personal journey and like I had mentioned earlier that

[00:26:34] journey began during a study abroad program for me in college then went on to lead

[00:26:42] semesters abroad doing actual conservation work for about seven years with another really

[00:26:49] incredible company called Ground River Conservation Studies and these were really deep

[00:26:55] you know deep programs you know we we we literally lived out a tense you know for three months in

[00:27:01] the wilderness working side by side and saved their eye on trust in the desert I mean these

[00:27:06] these are undergrad students 18 19 20 years old very impressionable but also you could just see

[00:27:13] that look of awe you know in their eyes you know every day getting up going out it was it was really

[00:27:20] inspiring and I I wanted you know after having left that sort of space for over a decade I kind of

[00:27:27] felt this longing to come back to it and you know for I saw full circle at least part of it anyway

[00:27:34] being that opportunity to do that and to create perhaps not semester long opportunities because I'm

[00:27:42] still doing my my day job of conservation which keeps me very busy but you know shorter more intense

[00:27:49] you know experiences especially here in Namibia using you know my contacts my network and my

[00:27:55] experience here on the ground over the past two decades to really even provide more meaningful

[00:28:01] and deeper experiences for these for these college students to to go back with and to really feel

[00:28:07] inspired to continue in a in a conservation career as after they graduate just because there

[00:28:14] there's nothing that I can imagine that's more impactful for a college age student than to get out

[00:28:21] into a place remote place in Africa Asia completely outside of their comfort zone completely immersed

[00:28:28] in both the conservation organization that they're partnering with and the communities that

[00:28:32] they're working with at that age it's an absolute unrivaled experience so you know we really

[00:28:39] really try and promote that to these kids absolutely I mean it changed your entire life that's the

[00:28:45] reason that we're sitting here and talking is because of your experience at 22 years old what was

[00:28:50] some of the feedback yeah also you know a lot of speech lists we made up a very conscious sort of 10

[00:28:59] minutes of silence where everybody would kind of go off sit down find a place by themselves look

[00:29:05] off into the desert I mean we literally were kind of at the end of a well lonely you know gravel

[00:29:12] track about a five six hour drive from the nearest camp so you couldn't get like you know anymore

[00:29:21] remote than that at least you know in our within that time period and they just you know have them

[00:29:27] have them be present you know and I think that's one of the great things that I love about being out in

[00:29:32] the desert is that there's there's no distractions even even really from from a nature perspective

[00:29:38] I mean oftentimes you get in the forest and it's all these you know nature noises which is great too

[00:29:43] but in a desert it's you're just there with nature and and maybe the wind but to have that sort

[00:29:49] of silence and that pure moment you know we don't get that chance very often anymore particularly

[00:29:57] down these kids yeah yeah I like to think anyway that it makes them kind of reconsider how important

[00:30:05] those those moments are to have in life and and to try and find ways to make that become a more

[00:30:13] routine part of their life is as I move forward because I do believe that you know you know spending

[00:30:19] time in nature is it's a great medicine and it helps keep us healthy both mind and body and

[00:30:26] and will help make us be better people too absolutely I've heard that 30 minutes in nature boosts

[00:30:32] your immune system like 50 percent and maybe that's a non-adcure step but I I do know that it there

[00:30:38] is something about how much healthier we become when we have those pure moments as you're describing

[00:30:44] and are able to just connect yeah some doctors even for scribe it the good ones at least the good

[00:30:50] ones the good ones the good ones tell me more about what these tours look like well so you know full

[00:30:58] circle kind of has a couple different components of it so the the one side which we've already

[00:31:04] talked about is with the students and what these programs look like are very experiential

[00:31:11] very immersive I think it's more a better use of time anyway to get them to meet and to talk with

[00:31:17] and to have discussions with as many actual conservationists doing work on the ground as possible

[00:31:24] and to facilitate you know deep discussions with them about their challenges and their successes

[00:31:31] you know what they have done differently you know to provide those those moments for those students

[00:31:36] to be in and meeting the farmer for example that just lost 40 goats to a lion to try and understand

[00:31:45] what does that actually feel like you know what does that mean to that farmer and when we talk about

[00:31:51] the looking after high value species like rhino what is what is a ranger have to say about that

[00:31:57] you know what are his lived experiences out there on the ground looking after rhinos and how do

[00:32:04] the local community member who you know might be farming in the area who has to engage with these

[00:32:11] rangers and potential poachers how how do they deal with that and really just trying to equip

[00:32:17] these students with this actual on the ground knowledge and sense of what it's like not just

[00:32:24] for them in their little world of doing conservation and science which typically is what they come

[00:32:29] on a university with but knowing you know how to engage with and how to listen and how to understand

[00:32:37] all these other perspectives that are always a part of these really complex conservation challenge

[00:32:45] and hopefully going away feeling inspired whoops that's a critical part of the student

[00:32:51] dimension of what full circle does i agree wholeheartedly so you have tours for younger generation

[00:32:56] that you also have tours for travel professionals are the tours different so yeah so when I

[00:33:03] when I talk about travel professionals actually what I mean is in order to create more more

[00:33:09] conservation-oriented experiences that I would be promoting through full circle you know I

[00:33:15] would be working with the on-the-ground operators to improve the way that they do their tourism that

[00:33:22] is more conservation-oriented so that's kind of the work that I do with tourism professionals it's

[00:33:28] not so much of a tour per se but then on the other hand I also do you know group tours for adults

[00:33:38] and families and those experience are going to be you know a bit different than with the students

[00:33:44] obviously it's not a it's not a course per se but what I do try and do is you know include in there

[00:33:52] and as much as I can you know some conservation work that will depend on what our clients

[00:33:59] interests are if they're interested in rhinos for example there's no shortage of that

[00:34:04] I had some clients last year who we were able to go out away from the lodge for a night and actually

[00:34:10] have have dinner with one of the rangers from the community who had guided us during the day to

[00:34:17] rhino viewing and he invited us to his home with his wife and we were able to have a local meal just

[00:34:24] with him and his wife in their house and we went and camped at his local campsite nearby so it's

[00:34:32] trying to create those those little experiences that I think are very unique and authentic and that

[00:34:38] I think provide this much more conservation connected experience and to make the

[00:34:46] relationships that guests make during their trip I think a lot more real and keeping them connected

[00:34:52] over time too so if you know my clients want to reach out to one of the rangers that had guided

[00:34:58] them you know it's very easy for me to organize that and to keep them connected well after they

[00:35:03] they return home to complete their heroes journey so Jeff tell me more about these experiences that

[00:35:10] you have featured on our postcard travel website right now that are pretty remarkable I think the

[00:35:16] signature you know safari that you know I would love and I get about as much I think enjoyment out

[00:35:23] of you know setting these up as probably the guest due just because I've been doing it so long is

[00:35:30] is the rhino black rhino and foot safaris and you know these these are very immersive very unique

[00:35:39] experiences that take place out in the northwest so and again you know these rhinos these black rhino

[00:35:47] up in the northwestern part of them maybe are very special for a couple reasons number one

[00:35:52] you know there's only about five and a half thousand black rhinos left in the world so you know

[00:35:57] that alone tells you seeing a black rhino in the wild anywhere is pretty special but the vast

[00:36:04] majority of black rhino that persists across to Africa and pretty much all rhinos having said that

[00:36:10] exists in fence in protectors whether they're parks private reserves and you know it's it's kind

[00:36:18] of just the state of affairs for rhinos as they need that much protection but in the northwest part

[00:36:23] in amivia our black rhinos are completely unfenced and it's the last truly wild rhino

[00:36:30] population left on earth that's pretty unique and in addition to that they're the largest

[00:36:36] to be living outside of protected areas which is even more remarkable when you consider the amount

[00:36:42] of poaching that takes place currently around the world in rhinos we're still losing about a rhino

[00:36:49] not as bad as it was a few years ago but you know still you would you would think that rhinos living

[00:36:55] freely outside of protected areas would be essentially sitting ducks but you know again through

[00:37:00] our community work and particularly our local ranger programs we've been able to hold the line

[00:37:07] against poaching and one of the best ways to experience that is is going on foot with the local

[00:37:15] rangers that are working every day to basically be a part of their daily patrol and what that's

[00:37:23] like is you know you won't experience that you know any any other place both in terms of

[00:37:29] of who you're interacting with and the landscape and you know the landscape itself is out of this

[00:37:36] world i mean picture this as moonscape or you know Mars nothing but these sort of volcanic

[00:37:44] crimson red vessel rocks as far as you can see with some flat top hills way off in the distance a

[00:37:52] few bushes and trees you know if you're lucky and then this prehistoric looking you know

[00:37:58] rhino just slowly sontering you know across these rocks as they've been doing for the tens of

[00:38:05] thousands of years it's a pretty magical experience and to be able to get out of the car with a very

[00:38:13] well-trained and committed local ranger you know these are not militarized army men from somewhere else

[00:38:20] that have been hired to come in and protect these rhinos with guns these are local community members

[00:38:27] that were appointed by their community armed with the GPS and a smart device in their camera

[00:38:33] and binoculars you know to go record the presence and health of these rhino populations and the way

[00:38:40] that we've interacted with the tourism industry is that the tourism helps create the sustainable

[00:38:48] financing mechanism for them to go do their job how big is it right now well so in Africa we have

[00:38:55] two rhinos we have the black and the white rhinos think of it as sort of a black rhino is about

[00:39:00] the size of a of a small sort of hatchback car whereas a white rhino is almost double the size

[00:39:09] sort of a you know a Ford pickup truck for example so pretty big again black rhino bit smaller but

[00:39:16] they're incredibly fast I think that's one of the things you know people are really surprised

[00:39:21] about with with with rhino and even on our rocks and you know rhinos can can move much faster than

[00:39:28] you know we're saying bull for example kid run and particularly when we're on foot

[00:39:34] and it's I always find it interesting when guests want to get closer or ask why you know

[00:39:40] we don't go any closer than a hundred yards and when we talk about the speed of the rhinos they

[00:39:45] quickly nod and say okay though that makes sense there's not a lot of trees to climb in our desert

[00:39:51] either and you know for the most part you know black rhinos are not quite as aggressive as I think they

[00:39:57] they also get declared that you know especially in our open landscape they'll often run away if

[00:40:02] they do get disturbed but you know part of our experience and our goal standard with our with our

[00:40:09] rhino viewing is to be able to watch the rhino be able to provide that opportunity for the

[00:40:15] Rangers to collect the really important monitoring data without the rhino even knowing that we are

[00:40:21] there and we can do that you know rhinos have really good sense of smell and hearing but their eyesight

[00:40:28] isn't really that great and our trackers and Rangers are all trained to be able to approach that rhino

[00:40:33] within a hundred meters or so hundred yards to get their data it takes them about 10 or 15 minutes

[00:40:40] and then after that time period we then need to decide but you know the guests really enjoy it.

[00:40:46] I'm sure this all becomes so normalized to you I mean seeing this so what is it like to see this

[00:40:52] through somebody who's never experiences eyes before and to see that rush of emotion and that

[00:40:59] that I mean I can't imagine going out there with you as this is something so different for my

[00:41:04] normal day to day right and to see this incredible animal so close and just to be an awe of

[00:41:12] its presence what are what are the kind of emotions that that you see or what is what has been the feedback.

[00:41:20] Well I mean I've seen a number of people actually break down and start crying during the experience

[00:41:27] it is really powerful you know every sighting is different unfortunately because these are wild

[00:41:33] animals it's not as you know every sighting is certainly not perfect but generally speaking

[00:41:40] you know what actually is surprising to most people is that the rhino's because the landscape here

[00:41:46] is so vast and so huge that it almost warfs you know the rhino becomes dwarfed in this huge landscape

[00:41:54] which again I think just creates the stealing of being in another world you know in another time

[00:42:02] it really is a timeless a timeless landscape and things haven't changed the ground there was

[00:42:08] laid 130 million years ago when godwana split apart and being out there on foot I mean you can't

[00:42:17] I don't think you can provide much more of a vulnerable experience and humbling experience

[00:42:23] you know and these are all things that I think are critical to creating that transformative

[00:42:28] you know or that the people remember that create that memorable experience that they go back feeling

[00:42:37] changed you know that they were humbled by not just again being able to experience this wild rhino

[00:42:43] in this crazy landscape but but also seeing these local arrangers you know doing this every single

[00:42:51] day sometimes they're out for seven to ten hours driving around looking for fresh tracks sometimes

[00:42:58] you get on a fresh rhino track and you follow it for four or five miles and you find out that it

[00:43:04] maybe got our wind and took off running and you've got to walk all the way back to the car and go

[00:43:09] back and look for another one so you know it's it's really physically challenging but at the same time

[00:43:17] you know it's there's just no other place in the world I think that you can have that kind of an

[00:43:22] experience with that combines both this wild life and wilderness mixed with conservation right in front

[00:43:30] of you I'm right in your face absolutely I was just thinking about everything you just said with

[00:43:37] feeling vulnerable and humble in this this moment and having to be so present and I and really we

[00:43:44] don't have a whole lot of moments like that in our day-to-day society we don't have a whole lot of

[00:43:50] where we're just shoved to being so where we have to we're forced to embrace this genuine moment

[00:43:56] right and if you think that we have so much I so so much entertainment nowadays and so many things

[00:44:03] that are performed and strategically placed in front of our eyes and we get so numb to all

[00:44:09] this this wonder that technology has brought us because there's always something bigger and we're

[00:44:14] always like and we as a we as a consumer just you know want more and there's always something

[00:44:21] it it it it becomes shallow and so to have this experience that's so natural and so genuine and

[00:44:29] so there's nothing there's nothing manipulating it right there is something incredibly magical about

[00:44:35] that I don't know if I'm I'm finding the words but I think you're touching on something that's so

[00:44:40] universal to the human experience that we're really missing yeah I agree 100% and you know what

[00:44:47] what I've seen too that's been really transformative to to the people that experience this is

[00:44:54] following that really I think emotional experience watching the rhinos you know we we create or

[00:45:02] we provide the Rangers an opportunity to then share with the guests all of their work and all

[00:45:08] of their knowledge about the rhinos we we compile all of their monitoring data in little charts and

[00:45:16] presentation tools so following the tracking we we have a a picnic launch under a tree

[00:45:23] never the same treat again it's just wherever we're at wherever we can find some shade

[00:45:29] and that's that's the that's the Rangers time to shine and this is what I think is so important

[00:45:35] about and which is why I talk a little bit about you know going beyond sustainability because

[00:45:42] we shouldn't just be striving I think in my opinion to just be sustainable like I just don't

[00:45:47] think that's enough I think we should be leaving a place and the people that live there better off

[00:45:54] you know somehow because we were there I think that transcends sustainability into more of that kind

[00:46:00] of regenerative dimension and the feedback that the Rangers received from the guests you know

[00:46:08] after sharing all of their knowledge you know I can see in their eyes in their step you know

[00:46:15] the pride and the dignity that this kind of you know an experience gives to them too and I think

[00:46:26] that's really important for guests guests also to understand that them being there

[00:46:31] isn't just giving some money to a tourism company to their business that this is really

[00:46:36] creating a whole bunch of synergies that are having long-term lasting impacts I mean I think we had

[00:46:43] a four year period we're over a million US dollars was put directly back into community bank

[00:46:49] accounts through rhino tracking tourism absolutely I think synergy is the correct word and

[00:46:56] is should be highlighted and I think that's what is the heart of transformational travel is that

[00:47:02] there is there is a consistent synergy of the land of the person not only is the person able to have

[00:47:08] this transformative experience but it's also for everyone that is part of that experience is better

[00:47:16] for it and that's something that we're lacking right now in our in the tourism industry is that giveback

[00:47:25] and so I love that you highlighted all of that and how this all worked together because everything

[00:47:31] in nature needs synergy and to be successful yeah no that's you know finding win-win-win-win's um I mean

[00:47:38] that's that is the cast me out as as we like to say or the rhino's what what does the sound what kind

[00:47:44] of sound is a rhino make they make a lot of sounds yeah probably the most interesting is that they

[00:47:51] kind of make these little squeaks most most gosh I can I can do a great wolf owl and tiger and lion

[00:48:00] but rhino is is not an easy sound to make it's sort of like almost like a like a little whimper

[00:48:09] it's it's it's it's kind of a sad noise actually how interesting I would have never thought that

[00:48:15] okay so the or a rhino's whimper um yeah I would also like to hear before you go your

[00:48:22] wolf's owl if you can please oh the wolf owl it's been a long time that was one of the first things

[00:48:30] that I did with um in Minnesota all right let me let me let me try here ready oh that's great

[00:48:45] that's amazing love it love love it Jeff Munderkeering uh is Jeff what's your message to the world

[00:48:53] before we go my message to the world I think number one is hope um I think hope fundamentally

[00:49:02] keeps us all going it it it inspires us and and we need to find ways as simple as they may be you know

[00:49:11] to inspire hope in us you know every day and conservation especially is there's a lot of doom

[00:49:18] and gloom out there but I think there's also there's also some some really good slivers of hope

[00:49:24] and I think uh you know we need to find those we need to support them and we do we need to make more

[00:49:29] of them yeah a lot of my work now is trying to transfer and share a lot of the the lessons that we've

[00:49:34] learned in northwest anivia uh to other places we're working with colleagues in the Paul uh snow leopard

[00:49:41] scouts work with a colleague in china also with snow leopards and beavers all of which also have

[00:49:48] tourism components I think the more we share the more we create these communities of practice

[00:49:54] that look to again like find these synergies between tourism and conservation um it's it's going

[00:50:00] to go a long way to make to make the world a better place and you know I think lastly we talk about

[00:50:09] this this idea of traveling with heart you know in the tourism world it's ennemonic um I won't go

[00:50:15] through whatever letter means but I think the two big ones are the first one and the last one you

[00:50:19] know the h stands for for humble and the the t stands for thankful or gratitude and you know what

[00:50:27] I would say is that I don't think there should be at all a you're restricted to travel I think you

[00:50:33] if we all kind of lived with a life kind of led by the heart approach being humble practicing gratitude

[00:50:41] you know every day um and everything that that we did I think we would be a lot happier the people

[00:50:46] around us would be a lot happier there'd be more hope yeah we would we would sing songs much more

[00:50:54] I agree we would howl at the moon more on that note I am in much gratitude to you for today

[00:51:04] thank you so much for sharing all of this I I feel transformed and I appreciate that and I hope

[00:51:12] that all of our listeners as well as there anything else you'd like to add before we go

[00:51:16] our ten flaps are always open here in Namibia so as I often tell people when I give talks or on the

[00:51:23] world like come see us come see us in action come experience Namibia and Apollo some of these projects

[00:51:29] firsthand and I have no doubt that that you will be inspired and much more hope for it in your life

[00:51:36] inspired and tired thank you Jeff Montgomery thanks for having me thanks for listening to this

[00:51:41] episode of the postcard travel show if you liked what you heard please follow us on your favorite

[00:51:47] podcast platform rate and review this episode or share with your friends each week we will introduce

[00:51:52] a new travel designer and listen to the incredible stories behind their signature tours I'm your host

[00:51:58] Elizabeth Drollett it's been said that first traveling leaves you speechless then it turns you

[00:52:04] into a storyteller until next time safe travels friends