Cancel Culture and Respectful Disagreement

[00:00:00] Yo Chad, what if I told you there's a platform that could completely revolutionize your hiring

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[00:01:18] Let's wrap this shit up.

[00:01:20] I'm hungry.

[00:01:21] Listen up kids.

[00:01:23] That is your hiring process today by jumping over to thiswayglobal.com and checking out

[00:01:28] AI for Jobs where you can learn more about how to leverage AI for your recruiting instead

[00:01:34] of just writing poems and grocery lists.

[00:01:37] That is thiswayglobal.com.

[00:01:41] We out.

[00:01:42] Hide your kids, lock the doors.

[00:01:46] You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast.

[00:01:49] Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where

[00:01:53] it hurts.

[00:01:54] Complete with breaking news, brash opinion and loads of snark.

[00:01:58] Buckle up boys and girls.

[00:02:00] It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:02:03] Oh yeah, it's Caitlin Clark's favorite podcast, AKA the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:02:14] I'm your cohost, Joel Cheeseman.

[00:02:15] And joined as always, the Lisa Leslie to my and my Chad Sowash is in the house as

[00:02:21] we welcome Justin Jones Fosu, founder and CEO of Work Meaningful.

[00:02:29] And I put the pause in there because the company's literally work period, meaningful

[00:02:32] period, which may be my first question, but Justin, welcome to the podcast.

[00:02:37] Thank you.

[00:02:38] I'm excited.

[00:02:39] You look excited.

[00:02:40] It doesn't quite work in a domain, does it?

[00:02:44] It's horrible.

[00:02:48] It could work.

[00:02:49] You just get meaningful.com and the sub domain is work.

[00:02:52] So yeah, it could be the other way though.

[00:02:56] It does not work even when I speak, right?

[00:02:58] People do introductions.

[00:02:59] They're like work period, meaningful period.

[00:03:02] I'm like, no, no, that's not.

[00:03:03] So we just cut out the periods and introductions.

[00:03:06] Fair enough.

[00:03:07] Fair enough.

[00:03:08] A lot of our listeners don't know you and what you're doing.

[00:03:12] As I found out in the green room, you wore pants for this, which is a good start.

[00:03:16] But let our listeners know who is Justin, what makes him tick and a little bit about

[00:03:21] the organization.

[00:03:22] Yeah.

[00:03:23] So to the pants part, like some of these times, just to be frank with you all,

[00:03:27] I don't wear pants.

[00:03:28] Free and frank.

[00:03:29] Yeah.

[00:03:30] I wear underwear and a shirt and then hopefully I don't have to get up.

[00:03:35] So just...

[00:03:36] Okay.

[00:03:37] Let's dive in.

[00:03:39] So briefs, boxer briefs, boxers.

[00:03:40] Boxer briefs?

[00:03:41] I don't know how people do boxers because you just flapping around and I don't know

[00:03:45] how people just do briefs.

[00:03:47] It's just too tight.

[00:03:48] So the boxer briefs are that nice merger for me.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:52] And when they came up with the boxer brief, that was the blessed day.

[00:03:56] Fairly recent, yeah.

[00:03:57] Yes.

[00:03:58] That was gold.

[00:03:59] So that's the foray into Justin.

[00:04:02] And so I am now, I actually just got married the last week and so I'm really excited.

[00:04:09] What?

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:11] Congratulations.

[00:04:12] Yeah.

[00:04:13] Just got married.

[00:04:14] Thank you.

[00:04:15] Just came back from my honeymoon and so...

[00:04:16] Where'd you go?

[00:04:17] I went to Asheville, one of my favorite cities in the States.

[00:04:19] Asheville is sweet.

[00:04:20] Yeah.

[00:04:21] Loved the mountains.

[00:04:22] And so we had a great time.

[00:04:23] Omni Grove Park Inn and all that good stuff.

[00:04:25] So married now, I have four kids now.

[00:04:27] I had two before.

[00:04:29] I have joined with two and so we have seven, eight, 12 and 12.

[00:04:33] So I always wanted a big family.

[00:04:34] Didn't know it was going to happen that way.

[00:04:36] That's winning.

[00:04:37] Yes.

[00:04:38] Very much so.

[00:04:39] And I'm the founder and CEO of Work Meaningful where we research the intersection of employee

[00:04:44] experience and inclusion.

[00:04:45] And so I've written three books and I just have a really good time.

[00:04:48] I just love being a dad.

[00:04:49] Like this is one of the best things I've ever done.

[00:04:50] It's just being a dad and trying to show up imperfectly for my kids.

[00:04:54] How does that help you in the work?

[00:04:56] That's the big key.

[00:04:57] Oh, big time.

[00:04:58] I use so many examples of how I fail at being a dad.

[00:05:02] That's like a daily basis, right?

[00:05:06] Yeah.

[00:05:07] Oh, I feel you.

[00:05:08] So many leadership examples, right?

[00:05:10] And they've taught me a lot about even we're talking about respectful disagreement.

[00:05:14] I've disrespectfully disagreed quite a bit with my kids and it's taught me a lot

[00:05:19] about how to apologize, how to say sorry and how to come back.

[00:05:23] Patience, man.

[00:05:24] Being married, I mean, my wife makes me more patient.

[00:05:28] There's no question.

[00:05:29] But nothing makes me more patient than my kids.

[00:05:32] So do I.

[00:05:33] He may not admit it, but I bring out his patience gene as well.

[00:05:37] Yeah, that's just another level of patience.

[00:05:39] I know.

[00:05:40] I'm still working on it.

[00:05:41] I'm still working.

[00:05:42] I'm getting better, Joel.

[00:05:43] I'm getting better.

[00:05:44] So don't leave me.

[00:05:45] Don't leave me.

[00:05:46] So that being said, adding two more kids, I mean, there's more patience.

[00:05:52] And that, I would assume, also helps you not just with stories, but just with you and your

[00:05:59] whole personal journey.

[00:06:00] So talk about that.

[00:06:01] How did you get to where you are today?

[00:06:04] Not just the kids, not just the family, but getting to where you are from a professional

[00:06:09] standpoint, having your own company, writing books.

[00:06:12] How did you get here?

[00:06:13] Man, I think the catalyst and seeds for me with my mom, right?

[00:06:18] I get it from my mom and I literally single mom, two rambunctious little boys.

[00:06:24] My mom just shows such great perseverance and resilience.

[00:06:28] We are initially on welfare.

[00:06:29] We had a stand of being unhoused.

[00:06:31] So my parents divorced at four.

[00:06:33] Her life's completely changed and I went to live with my mom.

[00:06:36] But even through our economic challenges, I remember my mom would take us to go to

[00:06:39] events that we didn't know a lot about, right?

[00:06:42] And so we volunteered because we didn't have any money.

[00:06:45] Not only did she do that, but she would take us to stuff we disagreed with.

[00:06:48] And I'm sitting there like, why are we here?

[00:06:51] We don't even agree with that.

[00:06:52] But what she was doing, and I later asked her for my last book, I was like, mom,

[00:06:58] where did you get this whole mindset from?

[00:07:00] And I realized she shared she was one of the first black female air traffic

[00:07:03] controllers in the Air Force.

[00:07:05] And there were some times where she'd be stationed in Japan for two years.

[00:07:08] And there were some soldiers who never left base during that same two year

[00:07:11] time frame.

[00:07:12] And she was like, Justin, I don't want you and your brother to be like that,

[00:07:14] to never leave your home base to experience the beauty of people and

[00:07:17] cultures around you.

[00:07:18] And so that was kind of like the underpinning foundation of who I became.

[00:07:22] And then through a lot of different things from bullying to zits and

[00:07:27] other things, I had to learn how to be comfortable with who I am and

[00:07:30] not care as much of what people thought of me.

[00:07:33] And that moved me into going into business, getting my MBA,

[00:07:37] working for three, four, ten, five hundred companies.

[00:07:39] And then realizing I hated corporate politics.

[00:07:42] And I was like, wait a minute, I saw these people came in from the outside.

[00:07:45] I could do that.

[00:07:46] And so 17 years ago, I started the company.

[00:07:49] And we've just grown to learn and now we do consulting, speaking,

[00:07:54] e-learning, books.

[00:07:55] And so for me, it's just been a heart desire just to help people.

[00:07:58] I know it sounds cheesy and corny, which I am both, but not the Chad kind.

[00:08:03] But I'm just very cheesy in the sense of, I really do love helping people.

[00:08:07] When I was upperclassmen in college,

[00:08:10] I was putting on free workshops to help underclassmen get internships.

[00:08:13] And it just really became a passion for

[00:08:15] me just to help people in that aha moment to come off.

[00:08:17] So that's where it started.

[00:08:19] Were you an Air Force brat?

[00:08:20] Was she in or did she have you after?

[00:08:22] Yeah, she had me after.

[00:08:24] I do remember we did have one stint of being in Alaska.

[00:08:27] The only reason I remember that is because we had the good boat and

[00:08:28] bad boat.

[00:08:31] But I was like under four, so yeah.

[00:08:32] Okay, yeah, the reason why I ask is the military for

[00:08:35] a lot of time and the amount of diversity is almost shocking.

[00:08:40] I mean, you were literally plucked out of your life and

[00:08:42] put into an uncomfortable situation every single day.

[00:08:47] And you learn that you progressed so much faster as a human being when

[00:08:53] you were surrounded by a bunch of people who weren't like you.

[00:08:56] And so yeah, I could definitely see where mom could be incredibly

[00:09:02] helpful in pushing her kids to do the exact same thing.

[00:09:05] That's one of the things that I always tell my kids is like frequently

[00:09:08] experience something that is uncomfortable.

[00:09:10] You are moving, you are learning and that's really the only way to live.

[00:09:15] My gosh, you said it hit the head on a nail.

[00:09:17] I mean, one of the things that we came up with called the circles of

[00:09:19] grace challenge to do just that because we want to help people to

[00:09:23] put this into practice.

[00:09:24] And so for me, it became something every six months I would go to events,

[00:09:28] experiences or engage with people either I didn't know a lot about and

[00:09:31] that I disagree with.

[00:09:33] And so I've kind of put that as a system into my own life because I

[00:09:36] started noticing that was conforming to my circles of comfort and I was

[00:09:40] not leaving home base, right?

[00:09:41] And so I put that in for myself.

[00:09:42] Now we offer it to other people.

[00:09:44] So Justin, you mentioned being cheesy, which I will say there's nothing

[00:09:47] wrong with as the cheese portion of this podcast.

[00:09:50] So let's get to why we're here today.

[00:09:52] We're talking about disagreeing, doing it respectfully, cancel culture

[00:09:57] and whatnot.

[00:09:58] You can say it better than I can, but you reached out to us very

[00:10:01] eloquently about podcasts we had with Tor and Ellis and had some thoughts

[00:10:05] around that.

[00:10:05] So why don't you set the table for us and then we'll get into the

[00:10:08] conversation.

[00:10:09] Yeah.

[00:10:10] So for me, I love the concept and you all really talk through

[00:10:14] driving around equality and progress in the workplace.

[00:10:16] And all of the times I find it's been difficult around these

[00:10:21] conversations to disagree with people, right?

[00:10:23] Especially when you are uncomfortable or unsure of what you're saying.

[00:10:27] And so one of those examples came from me several years ago on LinkedIn.

[00:10:31] And I remember, you know, as one of my six month challenges, right.

[00:10:35] I challenged myself to be a better advocate for women in the workplace.

[00:10:38] And so I was reading books and Harvard Business Review and women in

[00:10:41] the workplace and all these kinds of things.

[00:10:43] And so I put up a post on my LinkedIn to really more so educate myself, but

[00:10:50] also the other men in my community about how we can be better advocates

[00:10:53] for women in the workplace.

[00:10:54] And so I typed a post and I even put a link to leanin.org

[00:10:59] hashtag sale Sandberg.

[00:11:00] And I was just like, Hey, how can men be better advocates for women in

[00:11:04] the workplace?

[00:11:05] And I got plethora of great suggestions from women about mentorship meetings,

[00:11:10] how we take up space, all these kinds of things.

[00:11:12] But there was one woman who posted on that, on my question to not ask

[00:11:16] women that question.

[00:11:17] And initially I was dumbfounded.

[00:11:19] I was like, wait a minute, why, why can't we ask women that question?

[00:11:22] Right.

[00:11:22] And so, and so I was like, wait a minute, do you mean that we

[00:11:25] shouldn't ask women that question in a similar space to how some people say

[00:11:29] you shouldn't ask black people how you can be better for them in the

[00:11:31] workplace.

[00:11:32] Right.

[00:11:32] And I was trying to connect myself, just in case y'all can't tell I'm

[00:11:36] black.

[00:11:37] And I remembered, I remembered in asking, I was just, just trying

[00:11:43] to get clarity, right?

[00:11:44] And she was like, yes, exactly.

[00:11:45] You shouldn't ask those who are oppressed, you shouldn't ask their

[00:11:49] oppressors.

[00:11:49] Right.

[00:11:50] And so, and that's where I had a difference of opinion.

[00:11:53] And I remember, you know, even before thinking about writing this book, I

[00:11:56] typed in LinkedIn and I have the screenshot of all, right?

[00:11:59] Like I respectfully disagree because one, I am open as a black person to

[00:12:04] sharing.

[00:12:04] And I've been that person with my friends and other people that wanted to

[00:12:08] hear one example of a black experience or what my thoughts were.

[00:12:11] Right.

[00:12:12] And so I'm open to it.

[00:12:13] And there was many other women who were already open to it because they

[00:12:16] posted the comments.

[00:12:18] But what I learned from that interaction, because I was scared, y'all,

[00:12:21] I'm going to be honest.

[00:12:21] I was like, I don't want to get canceled.

[00:12:24] I don't want to feel like I'm mansplaining.

[00:12:26] I don't, I mean all these things.

[00:12:27] So I literally, even before I replied to her post, I checked in with some

[00:12:31] of my female allies.

[00:12:31] I was like, Hey, is this appropriate?

[00:12:34] How does this sound?

[00:12:34] How does this come off?

[00:12:35] And I posted and shared it and we had an interesting dialogue that still

[00:12:39] remains on my LinkedIn where I was just sharing like, Hey, I appreciate

[00:12:44] your comments.

[00:12:45] I understand that everybody is not required to respond.

[00:12:49] And that's where I think I could have added that, that little piece of

[00:12:52] nobody has to respond if you don't want to.

[00:12:54] But for those who want to feel free to, and that's, that's one of those

[00:12:58] moments where I was leaning into the fears that many of my audience face,

[00:13:02] because they don't want to say the wrong thing.

[00:13:03] They don't want to appear ignorant or stupid or, and so instead they

[00:13:07] just won't say anything.

[00:13:08] And I had to be vulnerable to put myself out there.

[00:13:10] And so I'm grateful cause it ended well, but they don't always end well.

[00:13:15] Not so it's interesting because I don't mind looking stupid.

[00:13:20] Okay.

[00:13:20] He's really good at it.

[00:13:21] It's the only way that I can learn.

[00:13:23] Right.

[00:13:24] And then you've got guys who are like, Oh, I don't want to get canceled.

[00:13:27] To me, that's, that's an excuse.

[00:13:28] Okay.

[00:13:29] It's an excuse to not be uncomfortable.

[00:13:31] I don't mind being uncomfortable because I need to be able to

[00:13:34] understand what I don't know.

[00:13:36] And if I ask somebody something or like, you shouldn't say that.

[00:13:39] Well, that's, that's one person's opinion.

[00:13:41] Right?

[00:13:42] We say stuff on this show all the time.

[00:13:44] We get a ton of people that say that they enjoy it.

[00:13:46] And then maybe a few that say that they don't, that's okay.

[00:13:48] Right?

[00:13:49] So my big question to you is it feels like there are a lot of, let's say men

[00:13:57] and a lot of white men who you hear say, well, I don't want to get canceled.

[00:14:00] How do you break through that and say, look, if you're coming to it, you

[00:14:05] know, with, with the right intent, you might, it might sound dumb.

[00:14:09] You might sound ignorant, whatever.

[00:14:10] The only way that you're going to get past that is to ask the question.

[00:14:14] Right?

[00:14:14] How do we get past that fear?

[00:14:16] How do we get past that kind of like, you know, they, they feel

[00:14:19] like they're going to get shamed.

[00:14:20] How do we get past that just so that we can have the conversation?

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:24] That's a great question, Chad.

[00:14:25] And let me just kudos to you because you are far more advanced than a lot

[00:14:29] of people and that's sad to say in our society, you're far more advanced

[00:14:35] in the whole aspect of you're not afraid to look stupid.

[00:14:38] Like I'm the same way our society doesn't condition that.

[00:14:41] Our society, I love Carol Deweck's work on mindset.

[00:14:44] Right?

[00:14:45] And one of the things she talks about is that these two mindsets we generally

[00:14:48] operate by growth and fixed and fixed are the type of people that they don't

[00:14:52] want to look bad, especially compared to other people, they don't

[00:14:54] want to come off as ignorant.

[00:14:55] They want to be, you know, you seen as all knowing to some degree.

[00:14:58] And that's why you have people who will lie about stuff like seeing

[00:15:01] a movie that they've never seen just because they don't want to

[00:15:04] appear like they don't, they're in the outs of what people are talking about.

[00:15:07] But the growth mindset people she talks about are is that failure is just

[00:15:11] another data point of learning and that if ignorance is actually just

[00:15:14] means you don't know something yet.

[00:15:16] And one of the things that, you know, as we talk about the process,

[00:15:20] I encourage people to do it or normally two things.

[00:15:22] Number one is to remember and think back a time where they were

[00:15:25] ignorant in something didn't know it and they leaned into it and

[00:15:29] how they've grown for it.

[00:15:30] So first recognizing success.

[00:15:31] That's what motivational theory tells us all day long.

[00:15:33] Number two is to engage in things that will help them to

[00:15:38] grow into the growth mindset.

[00:15:40] So there's two things that I do in that one is I talked about earlier,

[00:15:43] the circles of grace challenge where I'm consistently putting myself

[00:15:46] in positions of learning where I don't know where I'm unsure,

[00:15:50] unfamiliar.

[00:15:51] And then number two, I do this thing called a birthday challenge and

[00:15:53] a birthday challenges every year.

[00:15:55] I challenge myself to do one thing that I've never done before.

[00:15:57] And so I often talk about that.

[00:15:58] Like I went skiing for the first time when I was 30 at this little

[00:16:01] place you all haven't heard of called Vale.

[00:16:03] And I remember when I was there skiing, I was so embarrassed because

[00:16:08] I'm like in my thirties and I'm struggling up like the magic

[00:16:10] carpet and these little kids were like four or five, like,

[00:16:14] and I'm just like, do I belong here?

[00:16:15] Like I'm sitting here saying I'm stupid.

[00:16:18] Right.

[00:16:18] But I kept going back not to veil cause that was really expensive.

[00:16:22] Um, but I kept going back to North Carolina and I took my kids with me.

[00:16:26] Right.

[00:16:26] And it's that consistency is I got better.

[00:16:29] So those are some of the things we think of a process that people

[00:16:33] have to get used to that feeling of uncomfortability.

[00:16:36] And it's usually not in high stakes situations that the comfort starts.

[00:16:41] And then they start, then we challenge people to start translating

[00:16:44] that to things that may be a little bit more uncomfortable or could be

[00:16:48] compromising with their career because that's really what some people are

[00:16:51] thinking about there's some things in their careers that they're really

[00:16:54] scared of like, am I going to be able to provide for my family?

[00:16:56] So for some people it's a real true genuine fear.

[00:16:59] When was that conversation Justin, uh, with the fear of mansplaining?

[00:17:03] Was that a few years ago?

[00:17:05] Or is that recently?

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:06] That was around 2022.

[00:17:09] Okay.

[00:17:10] Um, yeah, 2021, 2022 I know it's post COVID.

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:13] I think that might've been the height of sort of a fear.

[00:17:16] There was a fairly famous survey in 2021 that found out that 74% of

[00:17:21] people were afraid to talk about social issues, uh, and 70% around

[00:17:25] COVID and being sort of anti-vax or like, there was a real fear to do that.

[00:17:30] So I'm curious, what is your opinion on the current state of this issue?

[00:17:35] Uh, I feel like we've, the pendulum has swung all the way one way and

[00:17:39] it's starting to come back the other way, but I'm curious about your opinion.

[00:17:42] Yeah.

[00:17:42] I think to some degree it's right sizing.

[00:17:45] Uh, there was a big fear of saying the wrong thing, feeling bad

[00:17:49] about things, a sense of shame.

[00:17:50] Even our approach to DEI is not shame based, right?

[00:17:53] It's a learning based approach.

[00:17:54] Growth based is things that we can consistently learn, but in the same

[00:17:57] token, I think people are now because it was so far up here, people are

[00:18:02] now trying to swing it all the way back.

[00:18:03] I can say anything I want to, and I don't care what anybody thinks.

[00:18:06] And, and I can, you know, and I think that's also, um, not productive

[00:18:11] and healthy, and that's why for me, like, I don't mind conflict.

[00:18:15] I don't even mind disagreement because we're just going to disagree.

[00:18:18] I mean, Joel, you and I, you already disagree with Chad and I about here.

[00:18:22] And so one of the things that's important in this, this discussion is

[00:18:26] how do I still respect people even in the midst of saying what's true to me?

[00:18:30] And then there's a way that we really dug in deep to understand how I can

[00:18:35] still honor the humanity of people, even if I vehemently disagree with

[00:18:38] their ideology and it's tough.

[00:18:40] It's not easy, but it is possible.

[00:18:43] Okay.

[00:18:43] Listener, how can you help your employees become more productive?

[00:18:48] I have answers.

[00:18:49] How about automating manual and repetitive tasks, giving meaning to data,

[00:18:54] then allowing that data to actually drive decisions.

[00:18:58] And how about matching people to your jobs quicker?

[00:19:01] Well, wait, the Chad and cheese has a new LLM.

[00:19:06] No cheeseman.

[00:19:07] I'm talking about text kernel.

[00:19:09] Ah, okay.

[00:19:10] That makes more sense.

[00:19:12] What I'm hearing is the groundbreaking concept of wait for it.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:17] Simplicity.

[00:19:19] Seriously though.

[00:19:20] Seriously.

[00:19:21] Text kernel cuts through the complexities like a tortilla chip

[00:19:25] through some hot nacho cheese.

[00:19:27] Really?

[00:19:28] Not to references already.

[00:19:29] Anyways, text kernel brings efficiency and productivity to your operations.

[00:19:34] Text kernel seamlessly unifies your tools and data to drive

[00:19:39] efficiencies and success.

[00:19:42] Text kernel is creating new opportunities for your recruitment journey.

[00:19:47] Kind of like adding guac to my barbacoa burrito.

[00:19:50] Oh my God.

[00:19:51] How about extracting meaningful insights from data?

[00:19:55] I mean, that's something swiftly matching people with jobs,

[00:19:58] automating repetitive tasks.

[00:20:01] Who knew such advanced concepts were even possible in the land of human

[00:20:07] resources?

[00:20:09] We did, Chad.

[00:20:10] We did.

[00:20:11] Dude, wrap it up.

[00:20:12] I'm a little hungry.

[00:20:14] Imagine that.

[00:20:15] Okay, listener, get ready to use today's tech to drive efficiencies and

[00:20:19] productivity.

[00:20:20] Visit textkernel.com.

[00:20:22] That's T-E-X-T-K-E-R-N-E-L.com.

[00:20:30] Nachos.

[00:20:34] The bedrock of this is communication, right?

[00:20:37] And being able to demonstrate that you care.

[00:20:40] It's well intended, but there's something that you call the double

[00:20:44] Dutch communication.

[00:20:45] Can you explain that?

[00:20:47] Because I think we all go through it in our lives and we have to fight it.

[00:20:52] So can you explain that a little bit?

[00:20:53] Yeah, so double Dutch comes from jumping rope.

[00:20:56] And so for those who jump rope when they were little or yesterday,

[00:20:59] because we're all still little, the single rope is like one rope that's

[00:21:03] twirling.

[00:21:03] And then double Dutch are two ropes that's twirling and somebody's

[00:21:06] waiting to jump in like, all right, let's go.

[00:21:08] Come on, let's go.

[00:21:09] And they're waiting to jump in, finding that right moment.

[00:21:12] And that's often how we communicate is that we're often waiting to jump in,

[00:21:16] right?

[00:21:17] We're waiting to jump in and say what we believe, what our thoughts are,

[00:21:20] why we disagree with that, why we think that's stupid.

[00:21:22] Where did you come up with that?

[00:21:23] And instead of waiting to jump in, right?

[00:21:28] What if we waited and we listened and we asked more questions and we

[00:21:33] filled in the gaps with curiosity instead of conclusions.

[00:21:35] Those are that moment where instead of jumping in, we take a step back to

[00:21:40] fully understand.

[00:21:41] And let's be very clear.

[00:21:42] Oftentimes, I think the best of people, right?

[00:21:44] I think the majority of people, they're not narcissists.

[00:21:47] They're not all about themselves or selfish.

[00:21:49] What I find often is that people are just simply trying to find

[00:21:53] connections with people.

[00:21:54] So if I said, Hey, Joel, like I've been, I went to this favorite

[00:21:58] seafood restaurant and Joel's like, yeah, that's great.

[00:22:00] Right?

[00:22:00] Now, normally what we do instead of saying, Oh, what made the

[00:22:03] seafood restaurant great for you?

[00:22:05] We say, but have you been to this one?

[00:22:08] And it's that desire to form connections.

[00:22:10] So we call it the power of three, like a very practical way to do it,

[00:22:14] where you listen at least to the third level of the conversation.

[00:22:17] And this is especially true with people that we disagree with.

[00:22:20] And it works really well even with kids.

[00:22:22] I practice on my own where I'm like, you know, Lydia's like,

[00:22:25] you know, my daughter, Lydia, she's like, well, at research, you

[00:22:28] know, Mary Beth through the ball at the window.

[00:22:30] And I'll be honest with you.

[00:22:31] I don't really care that Mary Beth through the ball at the window,

[00:22:34] but I do care about my daughter.

[00:22:36] And so I'm like, okay, so what happened after she threw the ball

[00:22:38] at the window?

[00:22:39] Right.

[00:22:39] And so now we're listening to the level, at least the level three

[00:22:43] where it gives us an opportunity to better understand someone rather

[00:22:47] than taking the exit on them with our own conclusions and our own biases.

[00:22:51] Talk about taking the exit real quick.

[00:22:52] What does, what does that mean?

[00:22:54] Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question.

[00:22:55] So taking the exit is what our brains do, right?

[00:22:58] Cause I'm a big studier of how our brains work and all these things.

[00:23:01] And our brains are wired to conserve energy for things that

[00:23:05] thinks it doesn't know.

[00:23:07] And so when we get second, third hand information, we start categorizing

[00:23:10] for future use, right?

[00:23:11] And so if you constantly saw a person wearing a red shirt that was doing

[00:23:14] something really bad or something like that, that you're, you know,

[00:23:17] you see somebody with a red shirt, your brain goes back to, oh,

[00:23:20] remember those instances where you remember that person and that's

[00:23:22] what our brains do.

[00:23:23] It's the same way.

[00:23:24] If you're driving Monday through Friday, you take exit.

[00:23:26] And then one day you're supposed to go straight because you have

[00:23:28] an appointment or something.

[00:23:29] You still take the exit.

[00:23:30] You take the exit, right?

[00:23:31] And it's because your brain is like, it's on auto mode.

[00:23:34] It's like it's on autopilot trying to conserve energy.

[00:23:37] And that's why intentionality is such an important aspect of driving

[00:23:44] towards some really dope humans.

[00:23:46] And so that's, that's what taking, taking the exit and not taking the

[00:23:49] exit means is, is to actually be intentional to go forward and learn

[00:23:53] about people, to hear their stories as we engage.

[00:23:56] Were you surprised to see so many of these issues politicized as they,

[00:24:01] as they were and continue to be and thoughts on election year.

[00:24:04] Is this, are these issues going to come to the forefront even more

[00:24:07] than they were a few years ago?

[00:24:09] I wasn't surprised to see these be politicized.

[00:24:14] Let me put it this way.

[00:24:15] There are good politicians.

[00:24:18] Um, I haven't met many of them and, um, they are oftentimes it's

[00:24:25] just your catering to your base.

[00:24:27] Right.

[00:24:27] And so I, I, I've been meetings with politicians and they would say,

[00:24:31] I actually agree with what this person just said, but I can't go

[00:24:34] before my base and say that.

[00:24:35] So they'll go and say, well, I disagree with that bill.

[00:24:38] I think it's the most stupid thing ever.

[00:24:39] And so once you've kind of peeled behind the curtain, you

[00:24:42] realize really what's happening, that it's more about a show

[00:24:45] for their supporters, their base.

[00:24:48] So I'm not surprised that it's been politicized because anything

[00:24:50] that can be politicized and give people a bump, people take advantage of.

[00:24:54] It's a great way to get viewers as well.

[00:24:56] If you're a media agglomerate, that's politicized.

[00:24:59] So I'm curious.

[00:25:00] It didn't surprise me obviously when the right went full on against

[00:25:04] sort of the movement, uh, the Hannity's that didn't surprise me.

[00:25:08] What, what surprised me a little bit today is you're seeing more and

[00:25:11] more, uh, pundits from the left speaking critically about this.

[00:25:15] Uh, professor Galloway, which Chad and I both listened to pivot.

[00:25:19] He's talking about DEI being, uh, not about color or sex, but about poverty.

[00:25:25] You know, the haves and the have nots.

[00:25:26] So changing the narrative there, uh, James Carville, a very popular, uh,

[00:25:30] democratic pun that worked for work for Clinton recently said an interview

[00:25:34] that he was concerned about there being too many preachy females that would scare

[00:25:39] off the electorate from, from voting for Biden.

[00:25:42] So curious about your thoughts on the left sort of speaking out

[00:25:45] on this movement as well, which personally surprises me, but I'd

[00:25:48] love to get your take on that.

[00:25:50] I am so thankful.

[00:25:52] Like I may not agree with everything as someone, once someone says, but it's,

[00:25:56] this conversation is so nuanced.

[00:25:58] I mean, literally for a decade are we've been speaking out against a lot of the

[00:26:02] things that have been happening in DEI.

[00:26:04] Cause for us, DEI just simply means difference, right?

[00:26:07] Diversity and inclusion is different.

[00:26:08] It's all of us are part of it.

[00:26:10] That's why I love when people say, I don't, I don't like diversity.

[00:26:12] I'm like, you don't like yourself because you are part of diversity.

[00:26:14] Cause diversity simply means like difference in race, gender identity,

[00:26:18] uh, socioeconomic status, geography, country, I mean, all of

[00:26:22] these things.

[00:26:22] And so from the last decade, I've been cautioning members within the

[00:26:27] DEI community about how we've been approaching it.

[00:26:30] One to move away from shame because shame is going to turn into resentment.

[00:26:34] Um, and then two to move away from a deficit approach of like,

[00:26:38] oh, it's 2024 and you still struggle with cause guess what y'all?

[00:26:41] I still struggle with some stuff.

[00:26:42] There's still issues I have and biases I have, but more from an

[00:26:46] abundance approach of helping people to meet right where they are and

[00:26:49] then helping them grow.

[00:26:50] Because if you keep telling me, if you have a partner at home and you know,

[00:26:52] your spouse, somebody says every time you come home, they tell you about

[00:26:55] all the stuff you didn't do.

[00:26:56] It's going to get tiring coming home.

[00:26:58] But if they're encouraging and they say, Hey, I want to say appreciate,

[00:27:01] you know, appreciate what you did last week or you did the coffee yard

[00:27:04] da da da, and they're building relational capital to then be able to ask,

[00:27:08] Hey, what, what do you think about this?

[00:27:09] Right.

[00:27:10] Is that that's, I feel is one of many approaches that just

[00:27:14] hasn't been executed well.

[00:27:15] And that's, that's been our approach for the last decade.

[00:27:17] Justin, you, you said in one of your talks, quote, stand up for the needs

[00:27:22] of others, even when it has absolutely nothing to do with yours.

[00:27:28] Right?

[00:27:28] So here's the thing that's counter to what we've been taught after

[00:27:32] the last 40 years of rugged individualism, right?

[00:27:35] We wanted to push away from socialism and that community effort, right?

[00:27:39] And that kind of thing where we have to focus on ourselves and our family.

[00:27:42] So it's like we've been programmed in an entirely different way, but yet

[00:27:47] when you say these types of things, it makes sense, but it

[00:27:50] goes against our programming.

[00:27:51] So how do we get beyond that programming that we've had for decades?

[00:27:57] Decades, decades, centuries and tomorrow start to care about the

[00:28:05] person to our left and to our right.

[00:28:07] I know now it wasn't centuries Joel, when we grew up,

[00:28:10] we were more community focused.

[00:28:12] Which was not centuries ago, by the way.

[00:28:13] No, yes.

[00:28:15] My hair reflects that, but yeah.

[00:28:18] Don't say that.

[00:28:19] So, but, but today, you know, it's, it's had this compounding factor

[00:28:24] where it all sounds great and everybody shakes their head, but the words don't

[00:28:29] actually match the outcomes and or the performance of your neighbors or the

[00:28:34] people that you work right next to.

[00:28:36] How do we get past that?

[00:28:37] In order to get past it, we have to understand why it's occurring.

[00:28:40] And one of the things that has occurred is, um, there's this theory

[00:28:43] called social isolation theory.

[00:28:44] And as we are isolated socially and confining ourselves to our circles of

[00:28:49] comfort, one of the things that ends up happening is, you know, we've heard

[00:28:51] it echo chamber, all the things people around us.

[00:28:54] So when with cancel culture, it's easy for me to just cancel you out

[00:28:58] to say, well, if you don't agree with me, I'll, I'll, I'll be

[00:29:00] befriend you, I'll take you off, unlink you, all these kinds of things.

[00:29:04] And so we're not getting our hearing from people who are different.

[00:29:08] And so it sounds very simple, but it actually really, really is, but it's

[00:29:12] hard is to be intentional with hearing the stories of people in our communities.

[00:29:17] People in our workplaces and even our family members.

[00:29:20] I learned so much by sitting down and asking my mom and dad about their

[00:29:24] stories.

[00:29:25] That's how I heard it found out about the whole air force thing.

[00:29:27] Well, my mom was intentional doing.

[00:29:29] I never gotten those stories before.

[00:29:31] And so you think about the programming that we have, we're so programmed

[00:29:36] to be about ourselves, right.

[00:29:38] At times.

[00:29:39] And that's why one of the lines that's so important to us is that

[00:29:43] seek to be more interested than interesting.

[00:29:45] So I challenge myself when I go to events where I encounter my

[00:29:49] neighbors and things, it can be so easy to start talking about, well,

[00:29:52] you know, I do this and I do that.

[00:29:53] And yeah, I've been here and I have this degree, but I want to be

[00:29:56] more impressed by who they are rather than impressed them by who I am.

[00:29:59] Now that's taken work.

[00:30:00] That's taking like great therapists that I still have and a lot of, you

[00:30:04] know, hard work in that area.

[00:30:05] But those are the things that began the catalyst of change.

[00:30:09] Me doing the circles of grace challenge, which used to be six months

[00:30:12] challenge has been so helpful as I went into experiences of people I

[00:30:16] disagreed with and I didn't know a lot about, but you know what I did?

[00:30:20] It helped me to find the gray in the conversation.

[00:30:23] It helped me to see how I could separate two concepts from an

[00:30:27] individual and their ideology.

[00:30:29] And those are the things I think it takes moments to do now.

[00:30:32] Let me be very clear.

[00:30:34] And the work we do, it's not about a quick fix.

[00:30:37] And we're very intentional about it.

[00:30:38] It's not just, Hey, do these five things and you'll be great.

[00:30:40] No, it doesn't work out.

[00:30:41] That's not life.

[00:30:42] That's not real life, but it takes consistent effort.

[00:30:46] And over time you start noticing progress and you start seeing improvement.

[00:30:49] And so that for me is a direct correlation to the challenges of our

[00:30:53] decades of choosing to be intentional, to hear stories.

[00:30:57] And that's, that's why the circles of grace challenge is very important.

[00:30:59] That's why the power of three is very important.

[00:31:02] That's why I encourage people to go out and hear the stories of their

[00:31:05] neighbors and just like, Hey, welcome.

[00:31:07] I'm glad you're in the community.

[00:31:08] I realized I never talked to you.

[00:31:10] I'd love just to hear more about you and start learning that.

[00:31:13] And I tell people blame the bald guy, right?

[00:31:15] You can blame me and say, Hey, you got this challenge from this book or

[00:31:17] this, this talk to be able to do that.

[00:31:20] And the more we hear people's stories, the more we're able to learn.

[00:31:24] And what we're seeing is a greater sense of empathy is created as we

[00:31:27] hear people's stories and we start like, Oh my gosh, he struggled with that.

[00:31:32] I can talk to him or I had better understanding of why that came to play.

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[00:32:27] Yeah, I love that take is I think it's so ironic that don't communicate for fear

[00:32:32] of getting canceled or disagreeing, but it's that same silence that divides us.

[00:32:38] Look, it's the married couple that doesn't talk that is on the road to

[00:32:41] divorce, right?

[00:32:42] It's communicating that breaks the ice on all this stuff and gets us to

[00:32:47] someplace of healing, not to get on my pedestal too much.

[00:32:50] I'm curious pivoting from that corporations and employees took very

[00:32:55] different sort of stances in this period.

[00:32:58] Some companies were freewheeling with the political discourse, say what you

[00:33:02] want, you can social media do whatever.

[00:33:05] And then you had some companies go the opposite way and say, look, we're

[00:33:08] here to make money.

[00:33:09] We're not here to draw, you know, drive political change.

[00:33:12] We're here to, you know, appease shareholders and the bottom line.

[00:33:17] What's your take on corporate responsibility around this issue,

[00:33:21] whether it's communication or controlling cancel culture or fighting it.

[00:33:25] What do corporations have a responsibility in your mind?

[00:33:28] Yeah, corporate corporations definitely have responsibility, but we have to

[00:33:31] ask who the responsibility is too.

[00:33:34] All right.

[00:33:34] And so one of the things is they definitely have a

[00:33:37] responsibility to their employees.

[00:33:40] And one of the things that's been very big for us is as a former HR

[00:33:46] worker and professional, we used to tell people stuff like leave work

[00:33:49] at work and home at home.

[00:33:51] Right.

[00:33:51] But that doesn't work.

[00:33:52] People are bringing work with them to home and home to work.

[00:33:55] And so why not create the best possible examples for people to learn?

[00:34:01] Now, first you have to assess where your organization is.

[00:34:03] If your organization hasn't been tackling issues, hasn't been diving

[00:34:06] into these things and it's really new to it, you don't start off with

[00:34:10] we're going to create a big statement.

[00:34:11] No, no, no.

[00:34:12] You start asking, all right, what does that next level of change look like

[00:34:16] for us?

[00:34:16] We call it the tortoise principle.

[00:34:17] If you see right above me, it's a big wooden tortoise because we

[00:34:21] realized that a lot of people are hairs, even corporations in our society.

[00:34:25] So something happens and they immediately dart out and like, I'm going to change.

[00:34:28] Right.

[00:34:29] But then there's no long lasting sustainable change.

[00:34:31] And we tell our clients and other people we work with to take

[00:34:34] the tortoise approach.

[00:34:35] Now we got the tortoise wrong.

[00:34:37] The tortoise wasn't slow, which we wrongly called the tortoise.

[00:34:40] The tortoise was strategic.

[00:34:42] We only call the tortoise slow compared to the hair, but we see how

[00:34:46] the race ended up, you know, the tortoise ended up winning.

[00:34:49] And that's what we are encountering with organizations is our responsibility

[00:34:52] one to prepare our employees.

[00:34:54] So great organizations I've seen do this well is that they've modeled

[00:34:57] this behavior with their leaders.

[00:34:59] They've shown how you have this kind of discourse at work and still

[00:35:03] be very respectful and hear different perspectives and understand and honor

[00:35:07] other people in their, in their viewpoints.

[00:35:09] And I've seen some that have stayed silent and the, guess what?

[00:35:11] The conversations are still happening and they're happening at the lunch

[00:35:16] table. They're happening during break.

[00:35:18] They're happening when people are going out for walks and sometimes

[00:35:21] other people are hearing about it.

[00:35:22] So I think that the first responsibility for corporations are to their employees.

[00:35:26] Now, what you decide to do or what issues you lean into as companies,

[00:35:31] that's really going to be a strategic decision.

[00:35:33] There is not a broad stripe of that.

[00:35:36] You should care about this issue because there's so many different

[00:35:39] issues that we can care about.

[00:35:41] Even for me, like when we talk about allyship, there's a difference

[00:35:44] between allyship and advocacy.

[00:35:46] Allyship means I agree and I'm standing with you.

[00:35:48] Advocacy means I stand for your right to be you, right?

[00:35:53] That's the way I define the two.

[00:35:54] I'm not going to be an, I'm not going to be an ally for something I don't

[00:35:57] agree with, but I can be an advocate for who you are and what you stand for.

[00:36:00] So anyway, I come back to this place of that's the corporate responsibility.

[00:36:04] It's one to their employees and two that they have to strategically decide

[00:36:08] on what matters to them as an organization.

[00:36:10] And there's no right way to do it.

[00:36:14] There's no, there's no rule book to this.

[00:36:16] So let's go, let's go to the harder portion of this.

[00:36:19] When you can get face to face with somebody, you can, it's easier

[00:36:22] to find the gray because people aren't, I mean, when you start talking

[00:36:25] about keyboard warriors, which I'm going to get into now and trolls.

[00:36:30] Yeah.

[00:36:30] Right.

[00:36:30] And it's hard and it's tiring at times for somebody who doesn't

[00:36:36] want to look to the gray.

[00:36:37] They just want to stay in what they know.

[00:36:40] And they're looking for every reason not to agree with you, even though

[00:36:44] you're trying to find the gray with them.

[00:36:46] Yeah.

[00:36:46] Many cases unfollow or block or what have you, right?

[00:36:51] Because it just seems like social media is so expansive and there

[00:36:55] are so many voices out there.

[00:36:57] Um, what do you say, what should somebody do to be able to, to

[00:37:01] protect their own psyche during this whole process in looking for the gray,

[00:37:06] but yet looking for people who want to get into the gray with them as

[00:37:10] opposed to just start a fucking fight.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:13] First of all, online is really hard.

[00:37:15] And it is.

[00:37:15] There's a lot of research that shows just the communication online.

[00:37:18] People will read into it, what they want to, um, even text messages, right?

[00:37:22] You know, you send partner text message, you look great today.

[00:37:24] They're like, well, I didn't look great yesterday.

[00:37:25] Like, so, so just even the, the inflection of our voices.

[00:37:30] I love the key and peel skit, which I'm sure you've all seen where

[00:37:33] they're texting each other in one's way.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] So anyway, if you haven't, can peel YouTube, a disagreement

[00:37:42] text or whatever.

[00:37:44] That is good.

[00:37:44] That's the classic one.

[00:37:46] But that's why, you know, I often tell people like online is the most difficult

[00:37:52] place to actually have respectful disagreement because of how people

[00:37:56] read into it, but I have to come to it with this understanding who is the

[00:38:00] only person that you and I can control.

[00:38:01] Me.

[00:38:02] Our kids.

[00:38:03] And so one of the, and I'm joking, that doesn't work.

[00:38:08] You do that.

[00:38:10] I've tried it many years and I've still been a failure at that.

[00:38:13] But one of the things I found is that I can only control myself.

[00:38:17] I can't control what do people do, how they respond.

[00:38:20] Um, trolls going to be trolls.

[00:38:22] Right.

[00:38:22] And so I give two different examples of that one very personal one, a story

[00:38:26] that, um, I heard and prepare for this book.

[00:38:29] Um, I, some people have trolled me on my diversity videos online.

[00:38:33] Right.

[00:38:33] And I'm probably the most empathetic DNI person, right?

[00:38:38] Just how I approach it.

[00:38:39] I give people the benefit of the doubt and I can tell they didn't watch

[00:38:42] my video, right?

[00:38:44] And they're like, I don't think we need DNI, you know, to put it on YouTube.

[00:38:47] And I was like, I was like, thank you so much for your perspective.

[00:38:50] Why don't you think we need DNI?

[00:38:52] And I was like, Oh yeah.

[00:38:52] Cause I thought that I was like, wow, you're a great example of why diversity

[00:38:56] is important because you have a difference of opinion and I, and even

[00:38:59] if I disagree with you, I want to say thank you for sharing your

[00:39:01] opinion crickets.

[00:39:02] Yeah.

[00:39:02] Right.

[00:39:03] And that's normally when I get trolls that are going after that,

[00:39:06] I love them with kindness.

[00:39:07] Right.

[00:39:08] I'm like, I'm trying to understand I'm practicing the stuff I teach.

[00:39:11] But the second thing is the seed planting aspect of this.

[00:39:15] All right.

[00:39:16] One of my former colleagues, he used to be a former skinhead, very

[00:39:20] misogynistic, racist views, other things.

[00:39:22] I was really curious about his catalyst moment out of this,

[00:39:25] uh, out of the movement.

[00:39:26] And he, he was like Justin, he was like, Oh, I loved when

[00:39:30] people used to call me names.

[00:39:31] He's like that used to fuel me.

[00:39:32] Right?

[00:39:33] He was like the thing that were the catalyst of seeds of change

[00:39:36] were the very same people that I demeaned that still chose to show me

[00:39:40] respect.

[00:39:41] And he's like, they'll never know because like those were chance

[00:39:43] encounters, but they took time to hear my story or how did I get here?

[00:39:46] Right.

[00:39:47] And I'm like, Oh my gosh, even in those moments where we might be

[00:39:51] face to face with somebody who could be a troll or who's not willing

[00:39:54] to engage in the gray that we still have the power to choose how

[00:39:58] we show up and how we choose to respect them.

[00:40:00] It's our choice.

[00:40:01] Respect does not have to be earned.

[00:40:02] I hate that statement as our society, right?

[00:40:05] Why?

[00:40:05] Like forgiveness, like it's just a distance cousin, right?

[00:40:08] Respect is a choice that we can give now to the point about boundaries.

[00:40:12] We have to be honest with ourselves.

[00:40:14] There are times where it's like, Hey, I can't have that conversation ever.

[00:40:17] And there's sometimes I can't have that conversation right now.

[00:40:20] And there's many times when it was big situation happening in

[00:40:22] society and my friends would reach out to me like, Hey, Justin,

[00:40:24] how to respond?

[00:40:25] I was like, Hey, y'all give me a month because I just can't,

[00:40:27] I'm going to be honest.

[00:40:29] I'm going to respond from a place of pain and not a place of help.

[00:40:33] And I need time to process.

[00:40:35] And so we, boundary setting is not some clear cut rule book about when,

[00:40:41] when's the right time to do it and when it's not the right time, but you

[00:40:44] have to check in with yourself.

[00:40:45] And I have, I asked myself these two questions.

[00:40:47] If I respond in this place or if I engage in this place, am I going to

[00:40:51] respond or engage out of a place of hurt and pain, or am I going to

[00:40:56] respond and engage out of a place of help and moving the conversation forward?

[00:41:01] If I'm honest with myself and it's hurt and pain, cause I'm feeling it.

[00:41:04] I choose not to engage in that moment.

[00:41:06] And so that's boundary setting is very important to this work because we,

[00:41:10] we can't give ourselves fully to everybody, but I often, especially

[00:41:14] the trolls, I often ask to actually have a conversation with them.

[00:41:17] I really want to get on.

[00:41:19] I want to get like, Hey, are you willing to get on, you know,

[00:41:21] one of the face chat things where you don't have to have my

[00:41:22] number or anything like that.

[00:41:24] But I just, so that we can actually have a conversation and I never,

[00:41:27] nobody ever picks me up on that offer.

[00:41:29] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Well, we, we appreciate this conversation.

[00:41:32] Uh, that is Justin Jones, Fosu founder and CEO at work.

[00:41:37] Meaningful Justin for our listeners who want to connect with you, maybe

[00:41:40] by the book when it's coming out, uh, where can they connect?

[00:41:43] Yeah, they can connect on LinkedIn, Justin Jones, Fosu or go to

[00:41:46] howtorespectfullydisagree.com where we have a lot more information

[00:41:49] bonuses and all that kind of stuff there.

[00:41:51] Other than that, um, just connect with me online.

[00:41:54] And if you try to troll me, I may ask you to get on a phone conversation.

[00:41:58] Troll away, baby troll away.

[00:42:01] And he might not be wearing pants by the way.

[00:42:05] Or if it's like me, there's no underwear at all.

[00:42:09] That's another one in the can everybody.

[00:42:11] We out.

[00:42:12] We out.

[00:42:13] Thank you for listening to what's it called?

[00:42:17] A podcast.

[00:42:18] The chat, the cheese.

[00:42:20] Brilliant.

[00:42:21] They talk about recruiting.

[00:42:23] They talk about technology, but most of all they talk about nothing.

[00:42:27] Just a lot of shout outs of people.

[00:42:30] You don't even know.

[00:42:31] And yet you're listening.

[00:42:32] It's incredible.

[00:42:33] And not one word about cheese, but one cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper

[00:42:40] Jack, Swiss, so many cheeses and not one word.

[00:42:45] So weird.

[00:42:46] Anywho, be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google play,

[00:42:52] or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[00:42:56] That way you won't miss an episode.

[00:42:58] And while you're at it, visit www.chatcheese.com.

[00:43:04] Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese.

[00:43:09] It's so weird.

[00:43:10] We out.

[00:43:12] You've got questions.

[00:43:13] We've got answers.

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