Will Microplastics Enter the Human Brain? (ft. Shreya Sharma & Sadhika Tiwari)

[00:00:00] Today on The Big Story, Microplastic was found for the first time in the human system. In human blood, right? When you take a plastic mug and you heat water in it for instance in a microwave, that leads

[00:00:13] to degradation and the water has microplastics in it which when you drink gets injected in your system. How dangerous are those or is it a big problem that we are not even looking at right now? There has been studies that say that microplastics breach this blood-brain barrier.

[00:00:28] The greater source of plastic waste is cigarette butts. I never knew that. People would be able to use plastics as they use it but it would not cause as much harm to the environment as it causes now. The views expressed in this podcast are the speaker's own.

[00:00:45] The Quint neither endorses nor is responsible for them. Hello hello hello welcome to The Big Story. This is the fourth episode of the series and today we are talking about the plastic that you and I are consuming. This was actually supposed to be the first episode right?

[00:01:04] But life plays out. Life plays out differently. This is now the fourth episode. This is the fourth episode of The Big Story and today we are talking about the plastic that you and I are consuming every day and no it's not kukure. It is actually... It's lace.

[00:01:20] Yeah, it's actually lace. New splash. Lace is just potato. But do you know why kukure is... It was said that kukure has plastic. Because it burns. It doesn't burn? Is that how it burns? No, it burns but it burns exactly how plastic burns. How does plastic burn?

[00:01:38] Have I burned plastic? I haven't burned plastic yet. Of course you have. You seem like a person who has burned plastic. In the name of science experiment. And I am like a pyromaniac kind of a person. I have 100%... Yeah, it burns with different kinds of flames.

[00:01:52] Green, I have seen green flames. That's how kukure also burns. People got very alarmed like oh my god kukure has plastic but it doesn't. But what does have plastic is everything else including our bodies which is what we are discussing today.

[00:02:08] So what we are talking about today essentially is microplastics. Okay. And what is microplastics actually? So microplastics are just really really really tiny pieces of plastic. And recently what has come up in the news or what our researchers have found is that

[00:02:27] as plastic degrades it becomes smaller and smaller and now it is entering our bodies and it is now in our blood as well. Yeah, there was a study that said it's the first time in human history that microplastic was found in our bloodstream right? Correct.

[00:02:45] Ever since this study was published which was last year the research interest in microplastics have shot up. Every alternate day you will see people discovering microplastics in different parts of our bodies. Yeah, in something or the other yeah, in tissue, in breast milk.

[00:03:00] Yeah and as much as we are studying of what where all it is in our bodies more and more things are coming up how microplastic is generated like if you recently heard that you know how our single use plastic bottles if you use them again.

[00:03:15] There was a study that said that it has 10, it has like 10 times more. 10 times, 14 times, 40 times, something like that. It has way more. After a point all of these 10 times and 20 times number are the same. Yeah.

[00:03:32] You say 10 times or 40 times, you say it will not feel that much. Yeah I mean because. Which is where we come in because we want to bring out the nuance between the 10 times versus 40 times versus whether this study was done on rats.

[00:03:49] Distinction because as we have discussed many times on the big story all studies are not the same. What has been happening over the past year is you will see a lot of these alarming numbers being like okay it is found here, it is found there.

[00:04:03] Through this episode we tried to figure out is it already an issue and at what point should be really be concerned about it. Any study that we see we don't necessarily need to be alarmed and I think that was the

[00:04:17] reason why we decided to do this episode right? First of all, what happens with microplastics? And is the whole Hala about plastics warranted? How much plastic should we stop using? How much plastics can we use right?

[00:04:34] And we'll take a biopronged approach on this because we have, this is where I introduce our guests. We have a climate journalist and we have a plastic researcher. Do we call them plastic researchers? Researcher just a researcher. Okay we have a researcher.

[00:04:53] By the way she also has a favorite plastic which we talked about last time which I don't, I mean do you have a favorite plastic? I don't have a favorite plastic. I have been conditioned to think plastics are bad.

[00:05:07] People you guys tell us if you have a favorite plastic but without wasting much more time. We do a lot of this right? Why do we speak so much before we introduce our guests Anjali?

[00:05:18] I think we just go with the flow and then we also think he edited that. This part won't be edited. That's why we keep talking. But okay so moving on to our guests. Our first guest today is Shreya Sharma.

[00:05:31] She is a researcher who is currently pursuing a master's in catalysis, chemistry and engineering from Imperial College in London. And she actually wrote a research paper titled Microplastic Profusion in Food and Drinking Water. Are microplastics becoming a macro problem? Oh wow what a nice work on the title.

[00:05:53] And along with her we have Sadhika Tiwari who is an ex-quinty. She used to work with us as a climate journalist and now she's working as a freelance climate journalist. She'll be telling us how these plastics have been such a huge part of our everyday lives.

[00:06:13] What kind of corporations are responsible for it? What can we do about it? Because clearly plastic is a very big part of the climate problem right? And for that we have Sadhika and it'll be a nice chat. Hi Sadhika, hi Shreya. Hello. Hi guys, hi everyone.

[00:06:31] So Shreya how's your research going first of all? It's going fine. I think I'm progressing fine. I'll talk more about my project later on maybe. Is it confidential right now that you can't talk about it?

[00:06:45] I mean research is always confidential but I think it's more related to the topic that we're going to discuss today. So I think I'll bring it later. Oh yeah you're building tension. Yeah suspense. Anjali let us not build any more suspense.

[00:07:00] Yeah before we get into more deeper and more serious conversation let us start very basic. First question to you Shreya, you will never see this coming. What is a microplastic? Oh tough questions already. So we already know about what plastics are.

[00:07:17] I think plastic is a very general term that we use in everyday life. So basically microplastics are tiny plastic beads to be talking in a very general layman terms. They are basically fragments of fibers that become as the result of degradation you can say.

[00:07:34] So there are two types of microplastics that are generally termed. One can be the primary microplastics and the other would be the secondary microplastics. So the primary microplastics include the microplastics that are being produced for commercial product development.

[00:07:50] So they can be found in our cosmetics or fishing nets etc. And the secondary microplastics as I was talking about is the result of the degradation of the larger fragment of plastics that we see.

[00:08:04] The only distinction between like a plastic and microplastic that you're saying is the size right? Like microplastic is like a much smaller form of normal plastic. Yes, how small are we talking? So there are different size range of microplastics.

[00:08:22] In general terms we call everything microplastics but to be very specific if I talk about in a very scientific term. Microplastics come in the range of 1 to almost 5mm range. There are different kind of plastics and what is now the concerning factor is microplastics.

[00:08:42] Yeah, those are less than 5mm in range basically. But like 5mm is something that we can see. Yeah, you can see it definitely. Okay. And why is suddenly there a interest in microplastics and was there always an area of study?

[00:09:01] I think because the plastic produced production has been increasing. Like earlier if I talk about I think only synthetic plastic was something that we knew about. But now people know about both synthetic as well as natural plastic.

[00:09:17] So as the production of plastic is increasing and I think it will double in the next few years. So I think as the production of plastic increasing people are getting to know more about the pollution that plastic is causing.

[00:09:32] And one of the concerning factor that everyone I think knows about not just the scientist around. But I think everyone knows about is the contamination because of microplastics around in the environment.

[00:09:46] I think before we started talking about microplastics the concern majorly that we had with plastic was that it doesn't go anywhere. And so it is having our marine life and the animals around us.

[00:09:59] So a lot of our concern with plastic was restricted to animals before we found out that okay in the form of microplastics it can also enter our bodies and harm us.

[00:10:11] I think that is where the distinction came once we figured out that a form of plastic can harm us. That is when he all became very, say antenna kade hoge. And especially after that study came that microplastic was found for the first time in the human system.

[00:10:27] In human blood. I think that was what in general the world community thora sa attention mein haag hai. Shreya have we been studying microplastics for long? Like how recent is this research?

[00:10:41] I am not sure how recent this is but I am very sure about it that this is a very hot topic in research right now. So if you can quickly explain for our listeners how would something like microplastic enter the human system?

[00:11:06] I think the first thing as I was saying is would be studying about the oceans because that is where our plastics are going altogether.

[00:11:19] But there are also studies now that say that not just the oceans but also the freshwater and even the terrestrial environments that we live in. They also have microplastics.

[00:11:32] So the study now says that almost 80% of the microplastic contamination in the ocean actually is coming from the lands and the rivers as their main roots. So Shreya like you mentioned there are some plastics that are primary in nature as in they are intentionally added to our product.

[00:11:50] So my question is to Sadhika why are these added in the first place? Like what purpose do microplastics serve?

[00:11:57] So for instance if you use a body scrub or a face scrub with microplastics in it you will realise that that tiny tiny crystals that seamlessly roll on your body and it is very difficult to find something that is as tiny and as smooth and can be made of some other material.

[00:12:16] The closest maybe which is why the next most popular scrub that we see is something is like an apricot whatever you crush the seed so the texture to replicate that texture.

[00:12:27] But even then the crystal is the smoothest right? It's tiny and it's and even so for instance what we put in the toothpaste, the tiny square, the strip of sorts almost invisible.

[00:12:40] All of these things are very hard to replicate in other materials or exactly like we say in detergents again to like scrub things and also for aesthetic purposes to look at a small tiny pink dot in like a big bowl of white stuff is just fun to look at right?

[00:13:00] So which is why there is no other replacement you can't replicate that with other material but is it absolutely necessary at least in these areas it's not.

[00:13:10] So did we not know it at the time when these things probably were being formulated that these will become a problem at one point?

[00:13:19] But we don't work as a holistic nobody so for instance if the face wash industry, the cosmetic industry one brand was trying to come up with a scrub a face scrub.

[00:13:30] The conversation in that boardroom I'm sure nobody knew or gave to hoots about in the environment or what potentially how damaging micro plastics can be or where all can they land up.

[00:13:44] In that meeting I'm sure the conversation was around what can give you the best sort of non abrasive comfortable smooth scrubbing experience on the face. You're saying this is a general thing when products are being developed environmental impact and all aren't given as much attention to.

[00:14:01] I would like to believe brands are becoming increasingly a little more conscious because there's a market for it and because you get enough credit and sort of you're appreciated.

[00:14:11] It helps you build a good sort of goodwill in the market with your consumers if you're taking all of these things in consideration but environment if at all has been a thought the environmental impact of most decisions that the consumer sort of industry has taken.

[00:14:28] It's always been an afterthought so what you have to do you do and then you realize Ke chalo now if we have to adjust other things what are the other ways we can do it.

[00:14:37] And here we're talking about products that you have to sell but it's true even for like bigger decisions that we take right.

[00:14:43] Environment is an afterthought not just because you have to pass certain you have to get certain clearances get certain certificates you're like I can't do this we can't do so how do we now make it just enough so it does not count as a as a as a as a violation.

[00:14:59] Correct. Yeah. So that's that's about it. Interesting. So when you talked about the secondary micro plastics right it is it is what is unintentionally used to be larger plastic particles but due to some processes processes physical processes became degraded into micro plastics. Correct.

[00:15:23] So can you tell us what some of these processes are.

[00:15:26] Well plastics can take 100 or thousands of years to decompose that we are already aware of but a biotic factors like wind or waves in the oceans they actually act upon these plastic materials that is how the plastics actually break down into smaller particles as I was talking about different

[00:15:46] sizes of plastics. These basically small particles are actually carried away to different parts of our ecosystem that we're living in.

[00:15:56] It can be through the storms or through the water and off through the winds as I was talking about this is a gradual process so the plastics that were transported to our oceans decades of years ago are now being decomposed into smaller

[00:16:11] particles and reaching us the consequence of what we have done to the environment is what we are seeing right now.

[00:16:17] This is about the gradual process but we have been hearing and there have been a lot of reports that say that there are some processes that are much quicker for example just like heating our food in a plastic container or freezing something in a plastic

[00:16:32] container and then consuming it. So these are some quick processes that also lead to release of micro plastics in our food or anything that we're eating or drinking. Are such processes also responsible for the creation of micro plastics? Yes definitely.

[00:16:49] So all the plastic items that we are using as you were talking about the plastic containers that we use to carry our food specifically the take away food that we get from the restaurants

[00:17:00] and the plastic bottles that we use if we heat the container, plastic container we will never get to know if the plastic particles are actually degrading after a certain temperature and getting mixed with our food. We will never get to know. Because we can't see it.

[00:17:17] Yeah but that is actually happening similarly if you keep water in a plastic bottle for days so if you get a new bottle I think that is where you will get minimum amount of micro plastic.

[00:17:30] Because that bottle is new but as the days pass because of the conditions in the environment the bottle also starts to get degrading.

[00:17:38] We cannot see it from eyes but that is actually happening and that is how micro plastics are being generated in the water and that is how it is getting in our body when we are consuming that water.

[00:17:47] And is it only true for like single use plastics or even you know the more durable kind of plastic does this kind of degradation keep happening in those bottles as well?

[00:17:57] Yes so that can happen in any kind of plastic material that we are using it does not depend on the kind of plastics that are being used to make up the material.

[00:18:08] Like we asked Shreya there are certain processes that are leading to the degradation of plastic that we cannot see and therefore we do not realize.

[00:18:17] So if Sadhika you have a few examples to add of certain processes that lead to degradation but we are not really aware about it. Yes so I feel the worst and the most popular actually where this debate and this was a long standing debate also in the west.

[00:18:33] When you take a plastic mug or a bowl and you heat water in it for instance in a microwave that leads to degradation and the water has micro plastics in it which when you drink gets injected in your system.

[00:18:47] A product a plastic made product which is degrading with time and is releasing micro plastics in the environment suspending it in the particles in dust in the water that you drink in the food that you eat etc etc.

[00:19:02] And that we are completely unaware of the Tupperware for instance that you use you put it in the fridge you microwave it very frequently over time that it has to start happening.

[00:19:12] I have also heard researchers talking about if you hit a plastic ball with a plastic bat just the amount of micro plastic released in the atmosphere because of that impact and the friction it creates that is also something that happens but like we just don't.

[00:19:29] So it's a very slow process of erosion of sorts so if you imagine something made like a rock so a rock if you keep touching it also know every day very gently it is around it's being functional abrasion happens and over a period of time you will realize that the edges will have smoothened out.

[00:19:50] It's probably getting smaller so it's the same with plastics heat exposure to heat exposure to just like a constant physical touch basically just anything that ensures that the thing the article is not in its native environment will lead to erosion.

[00:20:09] So I've read and it's commonly believed that this pollution with plastics in general and even then micro plastics this is an irreversible pollution so what does that mean.

[00:20:22] So it is inside your body it is inside infants who are now being born it's in the air that you breathe it's in the food that you eat it's already happened and it is so tiny that there is it's not it's not like the plastic bag lying on on on the beach right you can't physically go pick it up and then be like Hoga saaf whatever is there is there.

[00:20:45] We can maybe ensure that in the future it doesn't happen but that is also very very difficult because here we're talking about something that is very inadvertent with anything that has to do with plastic and plastic is an intrinsic part of how we live it's woven so deeply in our lifestyles there is you're wearing and in fact I was just on my way here I was just looking it up the greater source of plastic waste is cigarette butts.

[00:21:13] I never knew that. And aren't you supposed to not burn plastic?

[00:21:18] Yeah apparently the plastic fibres the fibres made out of plastic and that's the greatest source of plastic waste in the world like earth as a planet the most plastic waste that we generate it comes from cigarette butts.

[00:21:31] More than your plastic bottles and packaging everything like flip-says are interesting. Shreya as a researcher do you also feel that we are at a point of no return like will plastic never decompose? As a researcher I don't agree.

[00:21:46] Obviously as Sadhika was saying the damage that has already been done we cannot go back but I think as the progress is going on in the research the plastic that we are synthesizing now it comprises of both the synthetic material or the biodegradable material that has started to being synthesized.

[00:22:05] And as the research is progressing I think we are moving towards an era that will be using plastics but plastics will be degradable in a way that microplastics are not being generated.

[00:22:20] Yeah so definitely there is obviously a need to find out what will be the fate of the plastics that we are generating. Shreya I want to ask you one thing. I think the biggest problem with plastics is that they are non-recyclable and non-degradable right?

[00:22:38] They are recyclable but not degradable. They are recyclable yes. Yeah they are recyclable but they don't decompose into the environment right? Yeah that depends on the plastic.

[00:22:48] So could you simply explain to our listeners what makes plastics so non-degradable and so permanent in our system like the chemistry of it? Yeah yeah as I was talking about depends on the plastic material in use.

[00:23:06] So the common plastic that we are talking about or that everyone knows is the polythene or the PET that is a polyethylene terepithelate that is used in our plastic bottles. So that type of polymer is actually made of two carbons attached together. Okay.

[00:23:25] If in the smaller classes you have heard of covalent bonds so basically a carbon is attached to another carbon so there is carbon-carbon linkage as well as there is presence of carbon hydrogen linkage.

[00:23:36] So these type of bonds are actually very stable in nature so it's very hard to break them. So that is why it is very difficult to actually degrade these kind of plastics and also there are different kind of functional groups that makes the plastic material more degradable.

[00:23:53] So if we have that kind of plastic material which have similar functional groups it tends to get degraded more easily in the environment providing the right conditions to the plastic material. However as I was talking about if it has. That PET plastic has these stable bonds right?

[00:24:10] Yes a PET plastic or the normal polythene that we use that we generally take from the grocery stores.

[00:24:16] So I am saying considering we sort of find a way to produce plastic that is not damaging the environment at all that is easy to degrade and somehow we manage to replace or just use plastic saying things which are absolute long term and do not degrade.

[00:24:34] So in this ideal scenario from where we stand right now will we at any point ever have the capacity to just deal with the legacy waste?

[00:24:43] I have to add to this question as well as a researcher Shreya is the scientific community looking to now find a plastic alternative or they are also looking to make the existing plastic degradable and deal with the existing waste as well.

[00:25:00] So it is related to what Sadhika was asking. I will answer Sadhika's question first.

[00:25:07] So as the legacy waste that has already been generated and has persistent into the environment and I believe as a researcher I am being hopeful because of the research that is going on around me.

[00:25:19] As a researcher as we find out answers to the questions on how plastic can be degraded efficiently. I think the plastic that is already present in the environment can be extracted and can be degraded into something that does not harm the environment.

[00:25:38] But definitely the waste or the pollution that has already been created in the environment even if we kind of get a solution to the problem or kind of get a solution to degrading the plastic.

[00:25:51] We are actually not aware of what were the toxic chemicals that were used to make them. So even if we are able to degrade them, we don't know what will be the fate of the degradation. So definitely the legacy that we have already created cannot be undone.

[00:26:08] And then answering Pratik's question I don't think I can tell you if the research is going on more in a particular area. I think it's very balanced because the research community is trying ways to degrade the plastic that is already in the environment.

[00:26:28] Be it by recycling, be it by using different processes like incineration or pyrolysis or using natural degradation to actually degrade the plastics.

[00:26:38] And on the other hand, the researchers are also trying to make a kind of plastic that will degrade in the environment after use provided the right conditions.

[00:26:50] So if I talk about myself, I'm also working in the area currently where I'm trying to synthesize a plastic material that will eventually degrade in the environment and it will not cause any potential harm to the environment as well as the ecosystem it gets degraded in.

[00:27:08] So the research is very balanced I believe. So now that we've gone into a little more of a macro perspective on plastic and talking about the industry and everything, I think let's come back to our little tiny particles which are the microplastics.

[00:27:25] If we move ahead, so till now we've discussed how they get formed and how they enter our environment in general. So if we move ahead in let's call it the journey of microplastics, after it is dumped in the ocean, what happens next Shreya?

[00:27:43] Because it is actually accumulated in the oceans. The organisms that are in the ocean cannot actually make out whether it's food or whether it's something that will cause harm to them. So there are different organisms that actually rely on the oceans or seas for their food.

[00:28:04] They can be normal seabirds, the pelagic fishes or the benthic fishes or the large large kind of sharks or mollusks, different kind of animals that we know and that we know live in the oceans or the seas.

[00:28:19] So basically what happens is microplastics actually accumulate in the sea sediment surface first and there are different kind of phytoplankton that is present in the sea surface.

[00:28:32] So these phytoplankton actually absorb the microplastics. These microplastics are actually present in their bodies and as herbivorous animals eat these plants, the microplastics actually gets transported to their bodies

[00:28:46] and as these are being eaten by different carnivorous animals and ultimately to the human beings. So that is how it is actually reaching the humans.

[00:28:57] I have a small question about plankton. The plankton that we see who is Mr. Krab's rival in SpongeBob, is he the same, is he a phytoplankton or is he a different variety of plankton? I think it's a phytoplankton. That's why it's called the Sahara Pollution.

[00:29:14] Correct because he is tiny, he is called plankton and he is green and he sounded exactly like the character you just heard. So Shreya this is about how it travels up the food chain but if somebody is a vegetarian would you say they are safe from this microplastic?

[00:29:31] And she is talking about me by the way. No, no even vegetarians are not safe. Then she is not talking about me. Because we know that the production of food starts in the soil.

[00:29:45] So the kind of soil or the soil quality is actually very important and we all know that to make or to produce food we grow crops and crops grow in the soil that use fertilizers.

[00:29:58] So there have been studies where microplastics have been observed in soils of different ecosystems, different terrestrial ecosystems. It has been found in both urban areas, industrial areas as well as agricultural soils as well.

[00:30:14] So it's not just that we urban people or we people living in the urban areas are prone to these kinds of microplastics by eating the fruits and vegetables that we get. But also the people living in the rural areas as well. So basically, it's very microplastic in life.

[00:30:34] Now that we've reached a point where microplastic has entered our body. Now I think it's time to talk about once it's inside our body what can it or what cannot not do.

[00:30:45] And so at this point I would like to bring back the study that has started all of this discussion. Is the study that found microplastics in the human blood for the first time.

[00:30:56] So now in this research blood samples of 22 healthy adults were studied and they found that microplastics were present in 17 of these adults blood. So that is 80% of the sample population. So that means 80% out of all of us.

[00:31:13] I mean, I would assume it's like 100% of all of us who have microplastics in our blood. So my question to you Shreya is before this research we knew that the microplastic is in our body. But it has been now found in our blood.

[00:31:30] So how significant is this discovery? So to talk about it I think we humans inhale a lot of foreign particles every day. And this we have been doing since the dawn of Industrial Revolution I believe.

[00:31:46] So basically what's the body's first response is to find a way to expel these foreign particles. So even though we were taking these foreign particles in, the body was trying ways to expel it out.

[00:32:00] So either through excretion or if we take it through our nostrils that is through the environment if we are taking in microplastics. So the large particles of microplastics are being cuffed out.

[00:32:13] So this is a normal tendency of a body to expel or to excrete out these kind of particles that we are inhaling in.

[00:32:20] So after the discovery of finding these microplastics inside the bloodstream it became evident that some of the microplastics are not being expelled out but are actually being accumulated inside our body organs. It can be different tissues or inside the bloodstream transporting to different organs.

[00:32:42] So yeah so that is what was the I think the relevance of the study. So basically we were thinking that it is being expelled out but no it is not being, some of them are actually being accumulated inside the body organs and tissues.

[00:32:56] And do we have any research on what these microplastics might do to our body and different parts where they are found?

[00:33:03] So the research is very scarce right now because we don't have a definite answer to what would be the harm that these kind of accumulated microplastics inside our body organs or tissues can cause.

[00:33:18] But definitely something can be made out as these particles are accumulated inside our body or inside our tissues and organs they cause irritation inside the body as well right. So this leads to a cascade of symptoms that arise in our body.

[00:33:36] So if a foreign particle is inside our body our body tends to as I was saying react to it and try to get rid of it which results in a lot of symptoms that can result into inflammation.

[00:33:49] At this point you are saying this is like a hypothesis that is being proposed but nothing is conclusive right.

[00:33:53] Yeah, yeah for example if I give you just one example if the particles are accumulated inside the lung it can cause lung irritation then it can also lead to dizziness, headache, asthma and if the problem is very persistent and a lot of microplastics are accumulated so it can further lead to cancer as well.

[00:34:12] So for now we can't say for sure that okay this will lead to that but as much as we know about plastic and what's in it this is what we can say if it accumulates to a level this is what it may lead to right.

[00:34:27] So basically we don't know if the plastics that are accumulated are inert that is they are not causing any harm or whether they are actually causing harm to a level that an immune response is being created inside the body and the body is actually reacting to get rid of the microplastics or the foreign particle inside the body which is again causing different kind of symptoms like fibrosis or cancer in long term.

[00:34:57] Shreya I know you are not a medical researcher per se but if you would have any information on what is the knowledge gap that because of which we are not able to conclusively say what's the biggest issue in this field.

[00:35:12] I'll give the answer in a more chemical aspect. I think the main issue with dealing with microplastic is it comes in a variety of shapes and variety of sizes and a variety of composition. So it is very funny we are you know if we are actually studying on one kind of microplastic, the microplastic that is being generated from the same material would actually be different.

[00:35:38] So if I am studying about a microplastic that is being generated say from a pet bottle and that microplastic is spherical in shape the same material will can generate another microplastic that is say rectangle in shape then my study changes.

[00:35:55] So we cannot actually say how certain you know if we know for sure that okay this is how one material is reacting we can find a way to eradicate that material inside from our body ecosystem at all. But if you don't know what the particle would be we cannot future predict know.

[00:36:16] So that is why I think from a chemical perspective it is difficult I believe in the medical arena as well to actually find out a way.

[00:36:24] Yeah but Pratik I also feel we can still maybe identify a couple of larger sources for instance we identified this is the most common source and then maybe do some research on that.

[00:36:35] But I feel a lot of research always in the world of science has been sponsored and pushed by corporate interests and a lot of research is done where the money is at.

[00:36:47] And microplastic is so I mean we all understand we have discussed so much about how pervasive it is. So clearly I don't think there is a lot of money being put into also this research. Because it doesn't satisfy a lot of corporate interest.

[00:37:06] Especially not for long enough right because Shreya had mentioned that it's only now that it's become such a hot topic of research in.

[00:37:13] But increasingly maybe so because like I said I think consumers drive corporates drive research but not as much I mean not directly it's a much oversimplified version.

[00:37:25] But I feel where once consumer interests become more sustainable corporates would also want to sort of come up with things that are more sustainable.

[00:37:33] Since we're talking about knowledge gaps so I was reading a bit and there's one point where scientists are really concerned is if microplastics can jump what is called the blood brain barrier.

[00:37:47] So currently it has been found in our blood but we can't say for sure if it's crossing that barrier and entering our brains which is considered like a much bigger threat.

[00:37:59] So Shreya can you tell us a little bit about what this barrier is and have there been any research. So I'll first tell the listeners about the blood brain barrier.

[00:38:12] This barrier is actually a roadblock to different kind of microorganisms different kind of bacteria fungi viruses that may be circulating inside the bloodstream. How these microplastics are in are transporting through the blood brain barrier is actually a very hot topic and kind of very interesting.

[00:38:32] So there has been studies that say that microplastics breach this blood brain barrier. The scientists have found some kind of evidence in doing the studies with the mice.

[00:38:43] So basically the microplastics as they get accumulated the negatively impact the microglial cells so causing the cells to actually kill themselves due to the presence of these kind of foreign microplastics. There are different neurotoxicities that it can lead to. So it can definitely lead to change in hormones.

[00:39:07] But this you say is in mice currently? Yeah this has been found in the mice so we don't have a as I was saying the research is we cannot say what will happen inside the human body.

[00:39:17] And I think this is also because like the blood brain barrier is not as permeable as the bloodstream right. It's more restrictive which is why it's considered that maybe microplastics are not able to you know cross that barrier.

[00:39:32] But I mean there is one category of plastics that are even smaller than microplastics which is nanoplastics which we haven't Don't say that. Now we have microplastics. I was coming. You have put a new syllabus.

[00:39:49] I mean it's nothing like rocket there's no rocket science about it is just it ma lagra aitana chota microplastics. Or chota nice which is nanoplastic which which I don't know how how much research has been done in this which I am pretty sure Shriya can answer.

[00:40:06] But because it is like even a millionth of a millimeter that's so small so we can expect nanoplastics to sort of cross this barrier right. How how dangerous are those or is it a big problem that we are not even looking at right now.

[00:40:22] So nanoplastics are basically even smaller in size as Anjali was saying so the size can range from one to one thousand nanometers And nanoplastics can be more dangerous or I would say probably they are more dangerous and that is because they are more reactive

[00:40:39] And why they are more reactive is because as we grow as we go smaller in size the surface to volume ratio increases right.

[00:40:48] So as the surface to volume ratio increases the reactivity also increases so as they are more reactive you know they can they can cause more harm

[00:40:59] But I mean is there enough research being done on nanoplastics or because they are so small that they are so hard to detect that we are not able to like really

[00:41:09] No definitely research is being performed and there has been a research I have read that nanoplastics are actually found to be absorbed through the skin.

[00:41:19] So yeah definitely research is ongoing but as I was saying microplastics is such a hot topic and it has actually become a hot topic very recently.

[00:41:29] So yeah I think researchers would take a time to actually shift from microplastics to nanoplastics but because the research has already been going on

[00:41:39] on a kind of particle that is known as nanoparticles. So basically nanoparticles are of same size as the nanoplastics but they are used for different purposes. So the research specifically in the plastic arena or specifically in the material arena is going on concerning the nanoparticles.

[00:41:59] So I think a lot of research that is happening around the nanoparticles can be applied on nanoplastics as well. So yeah something will definitely come up in the next few years.

[00:42:11] Which brings me to one of our last questions before we talk about alternatives obviously. So Shreya and Sadhika is it possible in the world that we are living today for a person to

[00:42:25] I mean I'm pretty sure it can't be zero but really limit their exposure to microplastics. What kind of a lifestyle does a person like that lead? Nothing impossible asambhav. Don't try just not happening just don't. No no I think it can happen but it depends.

[00:42:44] Minimize kar loghe yaar. You have too many tensions in the world. Look at the politics of the country look at the dunya khatam ho rih hai. Kya paani hawa me se microplastics hata hoge?

[00:42:56] So I think talking in a very scientific manner I think there is a science specific science dedicated to this that is social and behavioural sciences.

[00:43:06] And I think if I talk about the consumers in general so their mentality and their decisions play a very important role in actually deciding this.

[00:43:20] And then there comes the role of the management of waste as well as the waste removal. Then there comes the role of industries as well.

[00:43:31] So it's like a very broad field but I think something will come up very soon and I think people are we as consumers are actually aware of these stuff even now. And as the world is moving more towards green technology, green environment I think.

[00:43:53] Soon there will be a time where we can talk about this topic in a more positive manner. So what are some starting points that we can keep? Someone like me can keep in mind if I want to reduce my exposure to plastic.

[00:44:10] Yeah the most basic things I think is just to not eat or drink in anything plastic. That is doable, that's not expensive, that's sustainable as well.

[00:44:20] Just not carry your food in plastic, don't microwave things in plastic, remove all plastic from your kitchen and if you can don't buy things that come packaged in plastic. So containers basically right?

[00:44:33] No, just all sorts of food packaging. So whatever food you eat, even if you are getting a takeaway, if it's hot food being put in a plastic bag, don't. Containers, utensils, food packaged in plastic at any stage in any form.

[00:44:51] And if we have to replace the current plastic that we are using, what are the most viable, sustainable alternatives to plastic that we have?

[00:45:03] I will wait for Shreya to answer that because I literally thought of three things and I found problems with environmental impacts of all three and they're all not very nice. Talking about alternative to plastic in general.

[00:45:19] Yeah so a person actually working in the area would say there are alternatives that are coming and one would be more towards increasing the biodegradability of the plastic material. But definitely there are different kind of materials that can be used.

[00:45:40] For example, silicon is one but it has its own demerits. I think every material has its own demerit so coming from a materials background I would say I would not go into the topic of what can be the alternative to plastics but I would rather talk about

[00:45:59] if you give some more years to researchers I think there will be a time very soon when people would be able to use plastics as they use it but it would not cause as much harm to the environment as it causes now.

[00:46:17] So listeners, Shreya is just asking for some time. Yeah because I think there are different alternatives to plastic and I can list them all but they have their own demerits.

[00:46:30] Exactly, I thought of steel. Steel has severe impacts on the environment. I thought of glass. Glass has its impact. I thought of silicon that has its impact.

[00:46:39] So I think as a consumer if you have to make the switch go for something that you can use for the longest time.

[00:46:48] Go for something that is more natural because it is coming from the nature it will go back to the nature so I would say go for something that is more natural to the environment. So yeah I think switching to more natural sources.

[00:47:02] Even that is slightly more expensive. For instance if there's somebody who is listening to us who is like okay I will take my food in a plastic box. What do I switch it up with?

[00:47:11] So then I think the best would be a steel kadabba or whatever you think you will use for the next 20 years.

[00:47:19] Yeah and maybe something that is recyclable as well. I am very well aware that recycling of material has its own disadvantages and that can be discussed on later in some other podcast but I think recycling is a very good alternative to a very good green future.

[00:47:38] So yeah any material that is recyclable. Okay, let's put the roti on the plate and go to office. Best alternative. I think we found a good optimistic note to end this podcast.

[00:47:50] Just give people like Shreya some time. They are working very hard on a solution and in the part 2 of this episode we shall have Shreya again where she is like yes I finally solved this. We found it. Yes. Thank you. Thank you Sadhika. Thank you for joining us.

[00:48:09] Hi thanks so much guys for actually doing this and I think more people will be aware of micro plastics now and the harm that is causing to the environment.

[00:48:19] I mean I didn't know honestly that it did not take so long to talk about plastic but clearly we can talk about it.

[00:48:27] There's a lot to talk about actually. It's one of those episodes where you listen to the whole thing and then you are like but I have more questions.

[00:48:35] Dude if these guys wouldn't have because clearly Shreya has better things to do like saving the world and making like a recyclable plastic and what not. And we asked for some time but definitely we are going to have her again because I have questions dude.

[00:48:53] Like the first question is let's imagine that we make a world which is free of plastics. Let's also imagine that our old plastic is also running and the new one is also of good quality. Sadhika is laughing in a corner right?

[00:49:09] Yes the word imagine is doing some really heavy lifting here but yeah let's just imagine. The day after that change is made what will happen to the corporations. What will happen to a lot of these other industries that you know use plastics.

[00:49:26] So what will be the more practical aspect of that change because that is like every time somebody talks about change in this aspect

[00:49:34] itna status ko bangeya plastic ki just imagining a change is like very weird for me and I would definitely want to have like a one hour separate conversation with Sadhika about ye change aayaega kyaise. And kyaa kabhi aayaega?

[00:49:47] That is like no I mean it seems the thing is we've like we've also discussed it has become such an inseparable part of our lives that it seems very utopian to imagine a world like that but there is no plastic.

[00:50:03] But I think like Shreya pointed out the as a material it really works and it has some benefits which are very very difficult to replicate in other materials.

[00:50:14] I agree with Shreya with the point that we should be looking at better plastics and not getting rid of all of them. I also was thinking about this when Shreya was explaining the study that we had talked about that isn't like a 22% study.

[00:50:31] Doesn't it raise questions of a low sample size and should this these kind of studies be done on a much much bigger population. Yeah exactly exactly. This study it is so widely discussed because it was the first one of its kind.

[00:50:48] Yeah after that the sample sizes have increased and this was like one study in one part of the world. Since that the number of studies that have happened have taken into account a much bigger sample population.

[00:51:01] And the point is all of them are pointing towards the same thing that there is plastic in our bodies and it is getting the problem is getting worse.

[00:51:10] And I think what we didn't even get to discuss in detail but should be is what I came across a lot while I was reading about microplastics was the problem of nanoplastics. Because they're so tiny that it is very expensive to detect them very expensive to study them.

[00:51:29] So we're not even doing that. Also the blood brain barrier. Yeah. What will happen if that barrier gets surpassed right? Yeah so I mean these are not just our questions. These are also the scientists questions. This is where all the research knowledge gaps exist.

[00:51:49] And definitely I would say that as soon as some study or something comes up and if Shreya sends us her path breaking discoveries we should be having an update on this episode. This is one episode which definitely will have an update sometime in the future right?

[00:52:08] And talking about the learnings that we had from this episode I would say Sadhika's point of trying to cut plastic wherever you can in a more sustainable way.

[00:52:19] That really rings true because for a year or so I have been conscious about the fact that I'm using plastic around me. That is something that is a conversation that can be had because as long as corporations do something. It will get delayed.

[00:52:36] And this is the most we can do. Is it the most we can do or is it the least we can do? This is also a question that we shall discuss in part. There is lesser that we can do but I'm pretty sure.

[00:52:48] There is lesser than we can do. I mean this is the most we can do right? Yes, you can obviously participate in policy discussions. You can let your governments know that this is what you want.

[00:52:59] But more than that at a very personal level this is the most you can do. Collectively of course we can do more but at personal level cutting down plastics recycling plastic reusing it actually more than recycling is considered a better practice.

[00:53:15] Also this is like a personal anecdote that having a plastic free life just smells better. You know because you have that very distinct plastic smell right?

[00:53:27] Whenever you have food in a plastic container or whenever you have like a plastic toy or something, not toy I don't play with toys guys. But whenever you have like a plastic article phone cover etc.

[00:53:41] It has that smell, very plasticky smell but the more I have you know replaced like as you can see this is like a metal bottle and doesn't have that plasticky smell. So if not for the climate for the smell.

[00:53:55] But yeah I think with that we can conclude this episode. Let us conclude this episode. It was a very fun informative chat. It was a very real discussion about something so plastic. Wow! T-shirt line.

[00:54:11] T-shirt yes if you want the big story merchandise spam our comments saying merchandise daaloh. Sure. Okay so what are we talking about in the next episode Anjali? In the next episode we are talking about... Let's talk about education. I think that's a good one.

[00:54:32] Till where are you educated? Till when should you be educated? And when can I say now I can't read more. Yeah so basically in the next episode we are going to talk about education. We won't tell you exactly the topic because the exact topic is very...

[00:54:47] It's very interesting you'll have fun. So stay tuned for it and this was Pratik. And this was Anjali. And you were listening to the big story. The big story is a quint-original podcast executive produced by Shehli Waliya and Ritu Kapoor.

[00:55:03] This episode was hosted, produced and edited by Anjali Palode and Pratik Lidhu. The episode contains theme music from BMG and a special thanks to our guests Sadhika Tiwari and Shreya Sharma.