EP 38: No Shortcuts with Raj K Gopalakrishnan

[00:00:00] Hello and a very warm welcome to our podcast Taking Chances with me Anupama Bhalla and my co-host Soheela Joshi.

[00:00:08] There are no shortcuts in life says our guest on today's podcast. Meet Raj Gopala Krishnan, co-founder and CEO at Kogo Tech Labs, India's only AI travel expert app.

[00:00:20] Raj is a professional with more than three decades of rich experience in media and entertainment, design and content, video technologies, AI and more under his belt.

[00:00:29] Adept at building businesses from the ground up, he has founded six startups and made them successful corporate brands.

[00:00:36] An avid biker and traveling enthusiast, his passion for travel became a huge part of his journey with Kogo.

[00:00:44] In this episode, he talks about his life's pursuits, motivations, leadership mantras and of course Kogo.

[00:00:51] I have a great day every day he says so welcome Raj and thank you for having this chat with us on Taking Chances.

[00:00:58] I know it's been a long pending conversation but finally here we are and as we kickstart season three it's great to have you on board.

[00:01:06] It's a great pleasure for me to be on season three of Taking Chances. Thank you Soheela. Thank you Anu.

[00:01:12] So getting right to the questions I want to begin by asking who is Raj Gopala Krishnan?

[00:01:17] You're a serial start-up with six startups under your belt. You're into content, technology, AI and a lot else.

[00:01:24] So what does it say about you? Your mindset, your motivational triggers, your goals. Who is Raj Gopala Krishnan and what really makes him tick?

[00:01:33] So let's jump right into it. So what makes me tick? What really sort of got me where I am today in terms of six startups?

[00:01:41] I guess I started early enough there was always an entrepreneurial bug. I started in advertising and at that time I realized that it's a very strange thing.

[00:01:50] When you're younger you think you're far more invincible, you're of course far more motivated and driven but it was a different world.

[00:01:58] I started my career in 94. So in 94 there weren't so many opportunities, there wasn't so much to do but I always had this drive to actually try something different.

[00:02:12] And events and event-based communication for corporates was something that was just about coming up at that time.

[00:02:19] And I thought it was a great opportunity, a great medium to actually communicate and do stuff.

[00:02:24] So I had a short stint in advertising and advertising was stagnant because this is pre-OTT time, there was just run-of-the-mill stuff happening.

[00:02:33] So that's how my entrepreneurial journey started and I think inherently whether you work in an organization or you have your own company,

[00:02:44] you are entrepreneurial in nature and I have to give it to my initial mentors and bosses.

[00:02:52] They sort of just let me have the run-of-the-place, even when I was in Mudra or in this draft,

[00:02:58] I actually more or less operated like an entrepreneur within the confines of the organization.

[00:03:05] And then I said okay, let me build an organization and that's where it began.

[00:03:10] And then I built one and then I built another and then I went bankrupt, learned a lot.

[00:03:15] Probably the best thing that happened in my life.

[00:03:18] Like I said, when you're young, you're cocky or you think you're invincible and you make mistake which sometimes, you know,

[00:03:26] turn out to be the best lessons.

[00:03:27] And after that, I decided that I would work till I was 40, retired 20 days before I turned 40 and moved to the hills,

[00:03:35] then traveled a lot, rode around my motorcycle across the world, did carpentry and then it was time again to hit the road from a business point of view and back here.

[00:03:48] Now when it comes to the different things that I have done, events which is essentially entertainment, films, content,

[00:03:57] I was always inclined towards doing stuff in the media space, but I was a computer science student.

[00:04:06] And it all came to fruition when one of the ventures that I had launched was called Yell Out which was pre-TikTok days,

[00:04:14] but it was exactly like TikTok, had a great exit and that really brought about my love for technology and content and travel altogether.

[00:04:23] And seven years later, that same potent mix of travel and lifestyle with content and technology presented itself in the form of Kogo.

[00:04:34] And that's where we are five years after I started Kogo.

[00:04:39] And yeah.

[00:04:40] All right. So that's basically doing one thing after the other after the other and that's a great way to be because Sohila and I keep discussing like a million ideas

[00:04:49] and hopefully some of them will see fruition someday.

[00:04:52] So you know, you briefly said something a while back Raju, you choose but you started, you saw success and some things didn't happen.

[00:05:00] You saw failure and so on and so forth.

[00:05:02] So in your mind is starting early part way to success because you have the time to fail and learn and then get better and better.

[00:05:09] Or one as an entrepreneur, one can start at any time and make something work.

[00:05:13] What is your personal view on that?

[00:05:15] I think one can.

[00:05:17] I mean, see age does reduce your risk taking ability.

[00:05:21] But having said that people who have become entrepreneurs later.

[00:05:25] So there are some realities in life.

[00:05:28] You got to be financially independent.

[00:05:31] When you're younger, it is easier to take a risk and be bootstrapped because you don't have so many other things to consider.

[00:05:41] When you're older, you have many other things in life, responsibilities, you know, things happen.

[00:05:47] You get used to a certain level of luxury and so on.

[00:05:50] So I guess it is as easy or difficult if you have the resources at hand.

[00:05:56] So if you have enough financial backing starting late also is as good as long as you are ready to give up the privilege.

[00:06:06] And I say privilege, the privilege to complain.

[00:06:09] The biggest privilege that you have as an employee is the privilege to complain.

[00:06:15] But as an employer or a business owner, you do not have that privilege.

[00:06:19] Who do you go complaining to if something is wrong? It's your fault.

[00:06:22] If something's not working well, it is your fault.

[00:06:25] If you've not delegated right, it is your fault.

[00:06:27] If your people are not doing a good job, you're probably guiding them wrong.

[00:06:31] If they don't understand what to do, you're probably communicating incorrectly.

[00:06:35] So you have to be ready to give up the privilege of complaining and just get on with it.

[00:06:40] And one of the other things that you need to have as a mindset for an entrepreneur, right?

[00:06:48] Regardless of age. This is very interesting.

[00:06:50] I was watching this podcast in which Sir Michael Cain said something about him, you know,

[00:06:56] being told something by his theater coach early in his career.

[00:07:00] He was trying to enter the stage and a chair was blocking the door

[00:07:04] because the people who were on stage actually got sort of involved in the scene and chucked the chair.

[00:07:09] And his mentor told him, use the difficulty.

[00:07:13] So, you know, if the chair is blocking the door, if it's comedy,

[00:07:17] then trip over the chair and get on to stage.

[00:07:20] If it's drama, then pick up the chair and smash it on the floor.

[00:07:23] But use the difficulty.

[00:07:25] And I thought that was a beautiful piece of advice.

[00:07:29] Use the difficulty and see how you can take an obstacle and make it into a stepping stone.

[00:07:34] Even if you can, you know, convert it to an advantage by 0.05%, it's an advantage.

[00:07:41] It's not an obstacle.

[00:07:42] So as long as you have that mindset that no matter what comes your way,

[00:07:47] try and see how you can use it to your advantage or learn from it.

[00:07:50] I mean, I definitely learned from my failures.

[00:07:53] Like I said, I went bankrupt when I was 30,

[00:07:56] but I was able to retire by the time I was 40 because I learned, OK,

[00:08:00] you know, these are the things that you don't take for granted.

[00:08:04] I mean, there was a great lesson given in business school about Pan Am, right?

[00:08:11] And they said, anytime you get into business and you're at the top of the food chain,

[00:08:17] make sure you say Pan Am, Pan Am, Pan Am,

[00:08:19] because Pan Am was the largest airline in the world

[00:08:22] and in a span of eight years it just shut down.

[00:08:25] And something in contemporary times, a very similar example was Nokia.

[00:08:31] Nokia shut down in two and a half years, right?

[00:08:35] They went from, I think it was, if my memory serves me right,

[00:08:40] it was 72% market share globally to nothing.

[00:08:44] There is no Nokia phone anymore, right?

[00:08:47] So you have to definitely learn from your mistakes

[00:08:51] and make sure that these obstacles that you have are turned into advantages.

[00:08:56] So age doesn't really matter if you're comfortable

[00:09:00] and if you know that this mindset for three things,

[00:09:03] give up your privilege of complaining, be able to turn, you know,

[00:09:06] use the difficulty to your advantage.

[00:09:08] And of course, learn from your mistakes.

[00:09:10] Everybody says that, but I mean, I've actually been there done that.

[00:09:15] So yeah, expensive mistake, but nevertheless.

[00:09:18] In fact, all successful entrepreneurs and even on our show, you know,

[00:09:22] when we've spoken to them, they talk a lot about failures.

[00:09:25] I mean, right down to, you know, a lot of some of them have, you know,

[00:09:28] also faced bankruptcy and losses, but they've always been able to,

[00:09:32] you know, talk about how they've used that to reach the next goal.

[00:09:36] And I think I agree with you.

[00:09:38] I want to talk a little bit more about entrepreneurship because, you know,

[00:09:42] India is a young country and we're seeing a lot of entrepreneurship being spoken

[00:09:47] about not only with metro, you know, younger kids, but even, you know,

[00:09:51] in smaller towns and tier one, tier two cities, with Shark Tank coming up.

[00:09:55] If you see a lot of young India is participating in entrepreneurship.

[00:09:59] So I want to know considering that you had so many startups,

[00:10:03] tell us a little bit about funding because I think that's really a piece

[00:10:08] which really is so important to know is should one get funding?

[00:10:12] How to get funding?

[00:10:13] What are the challenges that, you know, an entrepreneur will face

[00:10:16] when it just comes to, you know, starting out and making sure that they are there for a,

[00:10:20] you know, long haul and are able to fund themselves correctly so that they can survive?

[00:10:26] You know, this is, there is, this is a question everybody asks.

[00:10:30] Everybody wants this question answered.

[00:10:32] It's agonizingly difficult question to answer.

[00:10:35] So let me try and make some very simple points.

[00:10:38] Firstly, there is no art or science of raising funds, right?

[00:10:43] You go to different VCs or different strategic investors.

[00:10:47] Everybody says there is, there is a template, you know, problem statement.

[00:10:52] What is the solution?

[00:10:54] What is the TAM?

[00:10:55] What is the SOM?

[00:10:56] What is your pricing?

[00:10:58] What kind of penetration?

[00:10:59] You know, there's a template that you follow because people like to put things,

[00:11:03] you know, and understand that okay, you have 10 minutes to tell us this.

[00:11:07] But the problem largely is that funding is difficult, right?

[00:11:12] Because at the end of the day, you are as objective as a fund manager or anybody might be.

[00:11:19] You are talking to someone who is human and a lot of funding depends on how his previous day went

[00:11:26] or on what side of the bed he or she got off on that day or how much they like you as a person.

[00:11:33] And in most cases, while the idea may be maybe about say, I would say the idea is about 35%

[00:11:41] but it's the ability of the that they're really betting on.

[00:11:45] I think 65% is okay, you're saying that you will move mountains.

[00:11:52] Does he have the ability to move mountains?

[00:11:54] Is it a great idea to move mountains?

[00:11:56] Maybe, maybe not.

[00:11:57] But if anybody can do it, then this guy can do it.

[00:12:01] So that's really, I think where the trick is in being able to obviously having said that

[00:12:07] if the idea is no good, the idea per se has to have some merit.

[00:12:13] If the idea does not have merit, you can be the absolute go get a trailblazer, whatever,

[00:12:21] but you will not get funded.

[00:12:23] There are exceptions, but eventually they fail, right?

[00:12:27] So there has to be some inherent merit in the idea and the ability of the entrepreneur

[00:12:32] to actually go and execute on that idea.

[00:12:36] Now, if people who are at the other end who are funding feel that the person has the ability to do it,

[00:12:42] then you will definitely be able to raise money.

[00:12:45] Like I'll tell you a funny anecdote about how we actually raised our first check for Kogo.

[00:12:51] So we got funded back of napkin before we actually even formed the company, right?

[00:12:56] So my co-founder and me went to one of our first angel investors and said,

[00:13:02] you know, this Japanese American collaboration called Kogo because it sounded Japanese, right?

[00:13:07] And they want to do some work in AI in India and this is the concept and blah, blah, blah.

[00:13:12] And we showed one JPEG that we made and we said, you know, we want you to invest.

[00:13:17] Now look at the perception, right?

[00:13:19] My apologies if that investor ever hears this.

[00:13:22] He turned around and said, yeah, yeah, gore bina kya kya suchte ya amazing ya these guys know

[00:13:28] and the valley and these jabs.

[00:13:30] I mean, it's amazing what they think of and we got his commitment and when he said yes,

[00:13:35] I'm interested.

[00:13:36] I would like to invest.

[00:13:37] We said, well, Kogo stands for Koucher Gopala Krishnan because my co-founder is Pravir Koucher

[00:13:43] and I'm Raj Gopala Krishnan.

[00:13:44] And this is our idea.

[00:13:46] And he said, no, but but but that's the whole thing.

[00:13:50] So there is perception, there is ability.

[00:13:52] And of course he believed in our ability, but it's also where the idea is coming from.

[00:13:57] You will find a lot of great ideas, young guys in India with great ideas, great ability to execute,

[00:14:06] but they don't get the funds because of perception of where we are.

[00:14:12] Another interesting thing happened a few years ago before we were raising a large round.

[00:14:18] We were talking to another VC and the VC said, you know, but how did you guys manage to do this?

[00:14:25] We said, I mean, we've done it.

[00:14:27] No, but how?

[00:14:29] It's not like you're from Harvard or Stanford.

[00:14:32] So and it's not like your engineer from MIT or Brown or any of these places.

[00:14:37] And we just started laughing and we said, you know what, our engineers are from Ballyya,

[00:14:43] from Muzaffarpur, from Ranchi, from, you know, some remote corner of Kerala.

[00:14:50] They went to government schools wearing chappals and went to a polytechnic and didn't go to IIT,

[00:14:55] but they are hungry as hell.

[00:14:57] And because we come from a point of being deprived in the most basic of needs,

[00:15:04] we can think more innovatively.

[00:15:07] Yes, there is something to be said about ability.

[00:15:10] These boys and girls are very clever.

[00:15:12] They may not speak great English, but boy, can they speak any other computer programming language

[00:15:19] that exists right now.

[00:15:21] And, you know, we've got a great team.

[00:15:23] So funding is tricky.

[00:15:25] Funding is tricky.

[00:15:27] You may be very lucky.

[00:15:28] We've been lucky all the way, right?

[00:15:30] Because we had experience.

[00:15:32] We were able to express ourselves.

[00:15:34] You know, you tell a good story.

[00:15:36] Everybody loves a good story.

[00:15:37] And of course, your track record and ability speaks for itself.

[00:15:41] But when you're younger, if you're able to show the zeal and the zest that you have

[00:15:47] for actually delivering on the idea that you have presented,

[00:15:52] yeah, the chances of getting funding are definitely higher.

[00:15:56] But like I said, no art of science to it.

[00:15:58] Okay.

[00:15:59] So that's interesting.

[00:16:00] I mean, because you said luck couple of times, you know,

[00:16:02] you know this, so I guess you believe that there has some little element of luck does play

[00:16:07] along with all the other...

[00:16:09] Not a little element.

[00:16:10] I would say luck has a major role to play.

[00:16:13] Okay, right.

[00:16:14] I would say luck has a major role to play because all things being equal.

[00:16:19] If you have shit luck, you're not getting any money.

[00:16:23] True.

[00:16:24] As simple as that.

[00:16:26] Okay.

[00:16:27] Don't talk a little bit about Kogo.

[00:16:30] You know, help us understand what gap did you see in the market?

[00:16:34] How did it come about?

[00:16:36] And what are your ambitions for Kogo?

[00:16:38] So we've had a very interesting journey, right?

[00:16:40] So Praveer and my co-founder and me,

[00:16:42] we were actually, we've known each other for years.

[00:16:45] Between us, we've done almost about 350 or 400,000 kilometers on our motorcycles

[00:16:51] traveling around the place.

[00:16:53] And we were actually coming back from Spiti and we were trying to look for this place.

[00:16:57] And I've been going for the last 22 years to Spiti.

[00:17:01] We set up a primary school there.

[00:17:04] We've done a lot of...

[00:17:05] We set up a community radio project there, a YAKONSEVANCE project and stuff like that.

[00:17:10] So I know that place like the back of my hand.

[00:17:13] And we were coming back and we were looking for this one particular MAGGI guy.

[00:17:17] This is pre-Utteretunnel days, okay?

[00:17:19] One MAGGI guy.

[00:17:21] And for some reason, we just couldn't find the chap.

[00:17:25] And Praveer made an agist remark about me not being able to find stuff

[00:17:31] with any of us about it anymore.

[00:17:35] Not being able to find stuff anymore, absolutely.

[00:17:38] And so it started over in altercation and that night, we were discussing

[00:17:43] what if there was an invisible companion who could automatically start writing our stories every time we travelled.

[00:17:52] Because people would call us all the time,

[00:17:53] yar vaha pe kaisa hai hai, how is this place?

[00:17:56] What kind of roads are there?

[00:17:57] Is there a nice place to stay?

[00:17:58] And we said okay, let's build an AI companion for travel.

[00:18:03] And that AI companion for travel will automatically start writing your story every time you travel.

[00:18:08] And that really began our journey with Kogo.

[00:18:12] Now, you have to understand we started and we actually espoused this concept called narrative intelligence.

[00:18:19] Narrative intelligence is the precursor to generative AI.

[00:18:23] So it would actually take your root live and actually keep writing the story which is, you know,

[00:18:29] pre-generative AI but we used to call it narrative intelligence.

[00:18:33] And that's what we really started with.

[00:18:35] And then we said okay, now that people know where to go because stories are being told by the community,

[00:18:42] we should now also complete the loop and make everything bookable and create the ultimate AI expert.

[00:18:50] As we started creating the ultimate AI expert, we created the entire ecosystem,

[00:18:55] put a million hotels on it.

[00:18:57] Today, you can book a million hotels, you know, global flights, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:19:02] The entire travel ecosystem built on top of an AI storytelling platform.

[00:19:09] So people could actually sort of see what people where people were traveling,

[00:19:13] inspire people to get onto the road and so on and so on.

[00:19:15] And we said there should be now a companion which is the ultimate AI expert.

[00:19:20] As we were building the ultimate AI expert, we realized that the base tools or what you call as an AI operating system did not exist.

[00:19:32] So in order to make the car, we had to first invent the wheel.

[00:19:37] Right?

[00:19:38] So we went ahead and created an AI operating system and that AI operating system created the AI travel expert.

[00:19:47] And today, we're at the cusp of launching our AI operating system.

[00:19:52] Travel has become a very small part of our business and we're actually our technology can create an expert of almost any kind.

[00:20:01] You want a legal expert, you want a sales expert, a customer service expert.

[00:20:07] So we are able to create autonomous AI agents that can understand human intent.

[00:20:14] So that's the big change.

[00:20:16] Right?

[00:20:17] What's the difference between what a chat GPT does or anybody else does and what we do, right?

[00:20:22] Chat GPT is an LLM.

[00:20:24] It's a large language model.

[00:20:26] It's Generative AI, but Generative AI cannot perform tasks.

[00:20:30] The next evolution of AI from LLM is LAM, which is a large action model.

[00:20:37] What LAM basically means that the operating system can understand what you mean,

[00:20:43] can understand your intent and get the job done.

[00:20:47] So it can actually complete tasks.

[00:20:49] So you can now talk to the Kogo AI expert and say, hey, I want to book a hotel in Bombay

[00:20:56] and they'll say, okay, when you're going to Mumbai, I'm going to Mumbai morning.

[00:20:59] Great.

[00:21:00] Where do you want it?

[00:21:01] I want it near the airport.

[00:21:03] Conversationally, you can book flights.

[00:21:06] You can book hotels.

[00:21:07] You can book a test ride.

[00:21:10] You can do research.

[00:21:12] In fact, one of the recent deployments that are happening with...

[00:21:16] By the way, I don't know when you'll be releasing this podcast.

[00:21:19] I think we will be out of stealth mode on the OS front by that time, which is early April.

[00:21:25] But one of the...

[00:21:27] So we also have AI paralegal, right?

[00:21:30] And this big law firm came to us and said, okay, let's test out what the skills

[00:21:35] of this AI paralegal are.

[00:21:37] I put two interns and one junior lawyer to do deep research and give me case precedence

[00:21:43] and all of that on the trend of the Supreme Court of India in awarding custody

[00:21:50] of a 15-year-old child to the father.

[00:21:52] It took them four days.

[00:21:54] The Kogo AI paralegal answered it in seven seconds

[00:21:57] and gave a detailed report with markup, with cases, with everything.

[00:22:02] So our platform today is a completely sourced...

[00:22:07] Obviously, it doesn't hallucinate because it's not Generative AI.

[00:22:11] It has guardrails.

[00:22:13] It is a trusted, reliable AI expert in any field.

[00:22:18] And today enterprises can deploy an AI expert to do any kind of mundane task,

[00:22:26] any kind of complex workflow and our governing philosophy

[00:22:31] while we are deploying all of this is unlocking human potential.

[00:22:35] In fact, Praveen was speaking at a business world event the other day

[00:22:39] and there was a lot of talk about it.

[00:22:41] We truly believe that AI and Kogo's platform can help restore work-life balance.

[00:22:47] I mean, it's been a topic for 30 years.

[00:22:49] People are slaving away.

[00:22:51] If you can have an autonomous AI assistant that would be able to take 60-70%

[00:22:57] of your mundane repetitive task workload

[00:23:01] so that you're left to do more strategic, more creative thinking

[00:23:05] and better decision-making and then go home to your family.

[00:23:08] So it is our mission to make sure that people earn double the amount of money

[00:23:14] in half the amount of time and who knows maybe we will be the people

[00:23:18] who help usher in the three and a half or four day week.

[00:23:21] So that's where Kogo is today.

[00:23:23] So it's been an interesting journey.

[00:23:25] We started with narrative intelligence and we continue to build tools

[00:23:30] to take that narrative intelligence and make it into an expert

[00:23:34] that can now autonomously do any task.

[00:23:37] Raj, we've spoken about all the stuff that you've done

[00:23:40] and we've spoken about funding and you also spoke about something

[00:23:43] that you started which ran its course

[00:23:45] and how something didn't work out for you

[00:23:47] and you were bankrupt and 30 and so on.

[00:23:50] So when you start something or take on something new

[00:23:53] what tells you that it's time to let it go?

[00:23:55] You may be letting it go because it's not working

[00:23:58] or you may be letting it go because it's not doing well.

[00:24:01] So is there a time where you start something and say,

[00:24:04] okay this is not working or it's not going where I want it to go

[00:24:07] so just go away.

[00:24:09] What makes you think that and what makes you take that action?

[00:24:12] Okay.

[00:24:13] So the time, I can only draw from my personal experience, right?

[00:24:18] The time that I went bankrupt, right?

[00:24:20] I took a decision at that time and my business partner

[00:24:23] at that time was very keen that,

[00:24:25] yeah we have a great reputation in the market,

[00:24:28] things didn't work out, something has happened.

[00:24:31] There was a certain inflection point which caused us,

[00:24:36] we'd spread ourselves to him,

[00:24:38] we'd grown very big, very fast, costs were high

[00:24:42] and at that time he did say that,

[00:24:45] we have a good thing going,

[00:24:46] we have great equity in the market,

[00:24:48] we built such a great brand, we should continue.

[00:24:51] Let's pick up debt and let's continue, right?

[00:24:55] And at that time I said,

[00:24:56] no dude, I think it's time to let go, okay?

[00:24:59] So you have to go with your gut, it's time to let go

[00:25:03] and we actually as heartbreaking as it was,

[00:25:08] we let it go.

[00:25:09] At the same time, there are too many good

[00:25:13] entrepreneurs and good ventures which did not succeed

[00:25:18] because the entrepreneur gave up too early,

[00:25:22] or didn't have, whatever, there are just,

[00:25:25] I mean as entrepreneurs there's just so many

[00:25:28] rations that we don't even realize.

[00:25:30] I mean, I am thinking of them as I'm talking to you right now,

[00:25:33] that we don't even realize, they're just internalized,

[00:25:36] there's family, there's food, there's financial security,

[00:25:39] there's mobility, there's, there is this,

[00:25:42] but at least for both Ravi and me, my previous partners,

[00:25:45] an overwhelming sense of moral responsibility, right?

[00:25:50] Because like for example, we have about what?

[00:25:54] 60, 70 people who work in Google, right?

[00:25:57] Average family size is three.

[00:26:00] So if I screw up, I jeopardize putting food

[00:26:03] on the table for 180 people.

[00:26:05] That is a great responsibility that you need to fulfill, right?

[00:26:10] So there are multiple things that go on in an entrepreneur's mind

[00:26:14] that you need to pay people on time, you need to do this,

[00:26:17] you need to do that.

[00:26:18] So it's very difficult to take that call here.

[00:26:22] And the most tricky of them all is attachment.

[00:26:26] It's my baby, I have put in blood, sweat and tears

[00:26:30] little bit more.

[00:26:31] So that can take you over the brink or also there are many people

[00:26:36] who sort of crossed over and said, okay, I will go forward,

[00:26:40] I will persevere and then have become big successes.

[00:26:43] It's very tricky here.

[00:26:45] It's each one's personal ability to deal with the pressure,

[00:26:48] environmental factors in terms of, of course, everything's a function of money, right?

[00:26:52] There has to be money in the system.

[00:26:54] Forget for personal fulfillment, but there has to be money in the system.

[00:26:58] It's a business after all for people, for resources to run it, etc.

[00:27:03] So yeah, each one has to figure out on their own.

[00:27:07] Yeah, I guess it's such a personal journey that you, I mean,

[00:27:11] you never know how it will pan out.

[00:27:13] You never know.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:15] So Raj, moving forward, a couple of things that we want to chat with you is on leadership.

[00:27:21] And I think as more and more we've seen the young force entering into the workplace,

[00:27:27] the way we were led, you know, Anu and I is very different from now how we are leading.

[00:27:32] So what your certain thoughts on how do you motivate, you know,

[00:27:36] the new generation which comes into the organization,

[00:27:39] and especially you are in the tech business where it's literally,

[00:27:43] I mean, it's run by the young in that sense.

[00:27:46] So how do you motivate them?

[00:27:48] And how do you ensure that they really buy into what your organization

[00:27:52] and business stands for?

[00:27:53] It boils down to leading from the front, right?

[00:27:58] Praveel me.

[00:27:59] We finish work.

[00:28:00] We go back to our respective homes, spend some time with the family.

[00:28:04] And before we go to sleep, we study every night for about two hours.

[00:28:10] And then before calling it a night, we exchange notes for about 10 to 15 minutes.

[00:28:15] And next day in the morning, we are in office before everybody else.

[00:28:21] Chalk out what they need to do.

[00:28:23] Tell them about new stuff that's happening in the world.

[00:28:26] Encourage them to read, to study, to learn more.

[00:28:30] And at the same time, we also very clearly have communicated

[00:28:35] what our vision and mission for the company is.

[00:28:39] Everybody says, you know, we want to be a unicorn.

[00:28:44] We don't say we want to be a unicorn.

[00:28:46] We say hell yes, we want to be a unicorn.

[00:28:49] And hell yes, we are going to be a unicorn.

[00:28:52] Why?

[00:28:53] And what is the path to it?

[00:28:55] It's all very well to say that I'll be the greatest thing in the world

[00:28:59] and I'll do all of this.

[00:29:00] But you've got to show them the path to it.

[00:29:03] You've got to show them that this is how we will get there.

[00:29:06] You do thin slicing of goals.

[00:29:08] You say this is various things that you need to achieve at this time

[00:29:12] at all points in time.

[00:29:14] And I speak, I think I speak for Praveel also.

[00:29:17] The entire concept of leadership is not to say that

[00:29:21] Achha ye ye kaam hai karo.

[00:29:22] Our concept of leadership is to, if somebody starts turning up at 8 o'clock in the morning,

[00:29:27] then we will start turning up at 7.

[00:29:29] If they start turning up at 7, then we will turn up at 6.

[00:29:32] But at all points in time, we've got to do more.

[00:29:36] We've got to show more.

[00:29:38] We've got to exhibit and lead and say that this is how you build

[00:29:44] a global fricking business.

[00:29:47] There is no shortcut.

[00:29:49] And on the other hand, we're extremely fun workplace.

[00:29:53] In fact, one of our investors came to our office

[00:29:56] and as soon as he entered, he was like, oh wow.

[00:30:00] We're not like a corporate workplace where we'll put a pool table

[00:30:05] and a foothold table.

[00:30:06] Guys are playing cricket in office while music is playing

[00:30:09] and they're coding and guys are writing on the wall

[00:30:12] and there's all sorts of shit happening.

[00:30:14] It's mayhem, but there's a method in the madness.

[00:30:18] People have to have a lot of fun.

[00:30:21] We don't do, you know, like all companies do off-sites.

[00:30:25] We do off-sites too.

[00:30:26] But we don't take people to an off-site

[00:30:29] and force them to play team building games.

[00:30:33] We let people do their own thing.

[00:30:35] There's enough time that they spend together.

[00:30:37] And that by itself, when you don't force things down people's throat,

[00:30:41] that by itself motivates and builds the team.

[00:30:43] And yes, there are 60 people.

[00:30:46] All 60 cannot wipe together.

[00:30:48] There'll be eight people who are one group, another seven.

[00:30:51] Let them be and let them have a great time here.

[00:30:53] So yes, groups get formed.

[00:30:55] They have a good time.

[00:30:56] One thing we do not tolerate absolutely intolerant about

[00:31:00] is any kind of politicking in office

[00:31:04] and I'm very proud to say that we've really kept a lid on that.

[00:31:09] And I think another very, I don't want to jinx it, Dutchwood.

[00:31:14] Since 2018 to now, including people who have left

[00:31:18] and who we have let go, 10 people.

[00:31:21] That is how low our attrition is.

[00:31:25] People have been with us from the beginning.

[00:31:28] They continue to be there.

[00:31:30] They're highly motivated.

[00:31:32] And finally, we're anal about some things, right?

[00:31:36] There has to be discipline for work.

[00:31:38] But not discipline at work.

[00:31:41] Not that it's straight jacketed and do your own thing.

[00:31:44] Like our office in Bangalore is in a rework facility.

[00:31:50] Somebody wants to sit by the poolside and work.

[00:31:52] I mean, we have this large office

[00:31:54] and it's generally only me and one other person sitting there

[00:31:57] because somebody is next to the coffee shop.

[00:31:59] Somebody is sitting in the stairs.

[00:32:01] We don't care.

[00:32:02] The work has to get done.

[00:32:04] Everybody has things that they have to deliver.

[00:32:06] We give them that freedom.

[00:32:08] We also have a very flexible leave system, right?

[00:32:12] We've never refused anybody leave.

[00:32:14] Sometimes they overshoot it

[00:32:16] and they're responsible enough to be working on Sundays

[00:32:19] and holidays.

[00:32:20] I mean, they really work hard.

[00:32:22] I am so proud of my team.

[00:32:24] They're all rock stars

[00:32:26] and we have a great time working with them.

[00:32:28] The common thing,

[00:32:30] common motivator for all of us in our organization is food.

[00:32:34] We all love food.

[00:32:37] So there are always tons of stuff ordered.

[00:32:40] Sometimes we get kebab, sometimes samosas.

[00:32:43] So something else and something else.

[00:32:45] Food, music and the passion for technology

[00:32:49] is keeping all of us together.

[00:32:51] That sounds like a real cool vibe.

[00:32:53] I also want to talk a little bit more about leadership

[00:32:57] because it's so important for leaders to display

[00:33:00] like you're saying certain skills and empathy.

[00:33:03] So what is it that leaders of today need to upskill?

[00:33:07] Because we usually talk about upskilling and reskilling

[00:33:10] and it's always spoken about at skip levels,

[00:33:13] you know, at levels which are not necessarily the top ones.

[00:33:16] So I want to just understand from you

[00:33:18] what are the skills that leaders,

[00:33:21] you know, head functions,

[00:33:23] head businesses, CEO level,

[00:33:25] what are some of the skills

[00:33:27] that they need to upskill themselves on?

[00:33:29] Different people have different styles of leadership.

[00:33:34] I believe that upskilling

[00:33:37] and knowing what each person does,

[00:33:40] especially when you're in an executive role

[00:33:43] or as the CEO of a company,

[00:33:45] I can perform the function of my CFO.

[00:33:48] I can perform and understand

[00:33:51] the function of my engineering head.

[00:33:53] I can perform the function of my logistics head.

[00:33:57] I can do all those things if they are not there.

[00:34:00] Right?

[00:34:01] What I'm trying to say is that I make it my business

[00:34:04] to learn every skill that needs to be there in my company

[00:34:09] so that when I ask somebody to do something,

[00:34:13] they cannot turn around and say

[00:34:15] that this is not possible.

[00:34:17] I would be able to turn around and say this is the way.

[00:34:19] So if I'm getting bullshitted,

[00:34:21] then I would be able to tell them don't bullshit me,

[00:34:24] do it and if they do not know how to do it,

[00:34:26] I can say these are the possible ways that you can do it.

[00:34:29] So I think till recently, till Jenae, I came around,

[00:34:33] I think it was for a tech business,

[00:34:36] it is important to understand how code works.

[00:34:39] It's important to understand technology.

[00:34:42] It is important to understand finance.

[00:34:45] It is important to understand derivatives.

[00:34:48] It's important to understand investment instruments.

[00:34:52] It is important to understand that HR is something

[00:34:56] that you learn as you go by,

[00:34:58] but it's also important to understand HR best practices

[00:35:01] and so on and so forth.

[00:35:03] So I think you have to upskill in,

[00:35:05] as a CEO, you have to upskill in every department.

[00:35:09] Yes, you are better at certain things.

[00:35:11] It's not Jack of all trades master of none.

[00:35:14] It's actually Jack of all trades and master of some.

[00:35:17] So you have to be very good at at least two or three

[00:35:21] things and definitely know everything about every function.

[00:35:26] So just taking off from what you said Raj,

[00:35:29] we've got a lot of insight into how you see

[00:35:32] and do things professionally.

[00:35:34] So if you were to write a book,

[00:35:36] what would be your success habits?

[00:35:38] What would be the top five things that you personally as Raj,

[00:35:41] implement and think about and follow to be successful?

[00:35:45] I would think the first thing that comes to my mind is

[00:35:49] obsession. You have to be obsessive about whatever that you do,

[00:35:54] whether it is running the company,

[00:35:56] leading your team, learning new things.

[00:35:59] So you have to be obsessive one.

[00:36:01] Second is you have to be so curious about everything.

[00:36:07] You have to be so curious.

[00:36:09] I mean there is so much to learn.

[00:36:12] There is so much to do.

[00:36:13] It's amazing.

[00:36:14] I mean and today especially right when we were growing up,

[00:36:17] we didn't have so much access to information.

[00:36:19] Now there is so much information and I really revel in being a sponge

[00:36:25] in terms of reading stuff and I'm not a person who's active on social media.

[00:36:31] I mean, I don't know if you've seen my profile.

[00:36:33] I don't post personal stuff.

[00:36:35] I don't do anything on social media but everything that is fun

[00:36:40] and everything that is learning,

[00:36:42] I absorb and I really, really I would say being a sponge,

[00:36:46] being obsessive and having a lot of fun.

[00:36:50] There has to be a lot of play along with work.

[00:36:54] These three things, if I didn't enjoy what I was doing,

[00:36:57] I would not do it.

[00:36:59] You have to make sure that you really enjoy what you're doing

[00:37:03] because otherwise then it's just another job.

[00:37:06] So I have a blast doing what I'm doing.

[00:37:09] I'm challenged every day.

[00:37:11] I learn new stuff every day and then I go and read a book where

[00:37:17] the mailman in rural Wisconsin is saving the world from weapons of mass destruction

[00:37:23] by a terrorist based out of a hole somewhere in Guatemala.

[00:37:28] So you have to have space in your head for all of that.

[00:37:32] So I would say yes, obsessive, be a sponge and have tons of fun.

[00:37:37] These three things.

[00:37:38] And what about missed opportunities, Raj?

[00:37:40] You've done so much but something you felt that you could have done better

[00:37:44] or something you felt, oops, I didn't pick up that opportunity when it came about.

[00:37:48] Do you have such regrets?

[00:37:50] I have a small personal regret, no professional regrets.

[00:37:54] That personal regret is I didn't get enough time for music.

[00:37:59] So I used to play and I well, you know,

[00:38:03] but yeah, I still managed to sing in the shower and play an instrument when I'm, you know,

[00:38:09] had a tipple or two.

[00:38:11] But that's that apart professionally.

[00:38:14] I think everything, yeah, you do, you do feel that, you know,

[00:38:18] you could have done something a little differently and it would have been a little better.

[00:38:25] But I have absolutely, I mean out of six companies, one bankruptcy,

[00:38:31] four successful exits, one running well.

[00:38:34] I have nothing to complain about.

[00:38:36] It's a good life.

[00:38:37] It's a great life in fact.

[00:38:39] That's the other thing.

[00:38:40] I mean, yeah, I have a great day every day.

[00:38:43] So and then I meet people like you and, you know, we have a good chat

[00:38:46] and I'm also reminiscing my last 27, 28 years of my career and, you know, it's good.

[00:38:55] Life is great.

[00:38:56] So no regrets.

[00:38:58] Oh yeah.

[00:38:59] So Rajya, this is a question that we ask almost.

[00:39:01] I mean, we've asked all our guests and it's all about, you know, having a template in life.

[00:39:07] You know, when you look, you know, I mean just forward, what is it that you see that you want in your life?

[00:39:14] How would it look?

[00:39:15] I mean, the best of your life, just if you can tell us what you see.

[00:39:20] At the cost of sounding, I wanted to retire at 40.

[00:39:24] I retired.

[00:39:25] I wanted to live in the hills.

[00:39:26] I live in the hills.

[00:39:27] I wanted to ride around.

[00:39:31] I ride around.

[00:39:32] I wanted to do carpentry.

[00:39:34] I started doing carpentry.

[00:39:36] I've run successful businesses.

[00:39:39] I have run them well.

[00:39:40] I'm running one now.

[00:39:41] I have a great life partner.

[00:39:45] I have a great business partner.

[00:39:48] I have such good health and I mean, I've got everything that dreams are made of.

[00:39:55] So I really don't, I don't have any dreams except that no matter what I do, I should excel at it.

[00:40:04] I should do it well.

[00:40:06] And when people talk about any of the stuff, any of the companies that I founded or I've done, they say,

[00:40:13] this man did it.

[00:40:15] So definitely there is always greed for legacy in what you do.

[00:40:22] On personal front, I just wish that everybody in my friends, family and my colleagues have great health.

[00:40:31] Money will always follow.

[00:40:33] Money comes.

[00:40:34] You have great health.

[00:40:35] You have a good work ethic.

[00:40:37] Everything is good.

[00:40:38] So I'm living the dream life though.

[00:40:40] I don't have a problem.

[00:40:42] My wife looks the same for the next 30 years.

[00:40:45] I'll still be sitting here in in Lovedale in my estate enjoying the views, working on technology, writing my motorcycle.

[00:40:53] I think you're the first speaker who said, hey, I'm living my dream life.

[00:40:57] There's nothing to complain about.

[00:41:00] I mean, there's it's all good.

[00:41:02] It's great.

[00:41:04] But there is one thing.

[00:41:07] There's always one.

[00:41:10] There is one thing that I would love to do.

[00:41:14] But it's just something that today, Kogo is at a stage where we've created something very unique that about say 14, 15 or 20 companies globally have done so.

[00:41:25] And we actually are, you know, the nerdy Star Trek star wars Marvel fans, you know, the one thing that I would really love is actually to be in robotics.

[00:41:39] To actually have a fully to have something to do with a fully functional humanoid robot that could actually make people's lives easier.

[00:41:50] That is something that I would love to do.

[00:41:53] There are things cooking somewhere in the background, and I think the one goal or the one streak that defines my partner and me is that we're audacious.

[00:42:06] We love being audacious.

[00:42:08] People tell us, what the hell are you talking about?

[00:42:11] I mean, when you're not here to do easy things and nobody created great legacy by not being audacious in thought.

[00:42:19] So that's that's the that's the one thing that well, given time, I think we'll achieve that as well.

[00:42:26] But yeah, otherwise, personally, everything is great.

[00:42:30] That's what blah blah blah.

[00:42:31] So what brings us to the end of our main questions, Raj?

[00:42:35] We have a quick rapid fire. So we, you know, we need your quick picks on just anything that we asked you about.

[00:42:41] So we'll start off with the fact that obviously we are talking AI here and you've spoken at length about it as well.

[00:42:47] And you talk about robotics, that's something in the back of your mind.

[00:42:50] So do you see AI as something that will ever have common sense?

[00:42:54] Yes.

[00:42:55] And what makes you say that?

[00:42:57] Well, common sense is different from general intelligence, you know, common sense is is is uncommon because

[00:43:05] it requires you to be logical.

[00:43:08] That's what common sense is, right?

[00:43:10] Which is which is what most people aren't.

[00:43:13] So common sense is something that would definitely be there in AI.

[00:43:17] Will it have EQ?

[00:43:19] Will it be?

[00:43:20] Will it have emotional intelligence?

[00:43:22] Difficult to say.

[00:43:24] Will it have will we achieve AGI very quickly?

[00:43:28] Not so quickly, but common sense.

[00:43:31] Yes.

[00:43:32] Absolutely.

[00:43:33] Your quick take on self-help books.

[00:43:36] Yaar naa mai likhunga, naa mai padunga.

[00:43:39] Oh no.

[00:43:41] It's just as simple as that.

[00:43:43] I do believe that, no, sometimes you do need to reach out for help and I think self-help,

[00:43:52] no, I don't believe in self-help books.

[00:43:55] I think they are multiple templates.

[00:43:59] You're better off just talking to somebody.

[00:44:02] Self-help books are just templates that make authors rich, very clever books.

[00:44:07] In fact, I do think that beyond the point, I mean, my wife is a counsellor and mental health therapist, right?

[00:44:15] But I still believe that people should reach out to people for help, right?

[00:44:22] Self-help books are, oh God, I should say this on record.

[00:44:26] I think self-help books pretty on the weak and the vulnerable.

[00:44:31] Yaar, they do.

[00:44:32] I mean, I can write, I genuinely can go today and write five self-help books on different topics.

[00:44:41] You're intelligent enough.

[00:44:42] You can figure out that this is what people are looking for.

[00:44:48] This is what they need and you can write stuff and if you promote it well and you do a proper marketing exercise

[00:44:55] and you do some influencer marketing and you put two faces to it, you'll have people buying it.

[00:45:00] Because this is the reality that people want to succeed.

[00:45:06] So one fine morning when you wake up Raj, I know you said life's going great.

[00:45:11] If you would hop onto your bike, where would you want to go and why?

[00:45:15] I've not gone down South America.

[00:45:20] I would love to do that.

[00:45:21] Just new cultures, new places.

[00:45:23] I always try and not go back.

[00:45:27] I mean, Spiti is a different issue that's more a spiritual connection for us.

[00:45:31] We try and not go back to the same place or places again because just too much to see

[00:45:37] and there's just too many people to meet and there's just too many cultures to absorb

[00:45:42] and there's just too much food to eat.

[00:45:45] So I've not been down the South American coast and that's what I would do.

[00:45:50] What does authenticity mean to you?

[00:45:53] Oh God, I think authenticity is to have a moral compass and as long as you have a moral compass,

[00:46:01] as long as you believe that everything is an equation, right?

[00:46:05] Don't shaft your people.

[00:46:07] Don't shaft your clients.

[00:46:08] Don't shaft your customers.

[00:46:09] Don't shaft your friends.

[00:46:10] I think that's what being authentic is.

[00:46:13] Have a high moral compass.

[00:46:14] Good things happen to good people.

[00:46:16] That's what I believe in.

[00:46:18] And you spoke about Marvel movies and other science fiction stuff.

[00:46:23] So which is your best science fiction movie and why?

[00:46:26] There are too many.

[00:46:27] You're asking me to, this is a very unfair question.

[00:46:30] You don't want to be unfair.

[00:46:33] I love each one for its own merit, starting from the original Star Trek series

[00:46:39] and what, you know, I mean it's sci-fi and fantasy.

[00:46:43] I love the fact that creators are able to think of concepts where,

[00:46:48] whether it's Lord of the Rings, whether it's Star Trek, whether it is,

[00:46:52] of course, Lee Pace's badly cast in it but I love foundations.

[00:46:57] I love the book series.

[00:46:59] Okay, you look at all of these, the fact that they wrote the entire grammar and culture

[00:47:05] and all of that of the Klingons and they, of the Romulans

[00:47:11] and they wrote and created the lexicology of high Valerian in Game of Thrones

[00:47:18] or they did the entire Tolkien, wrote the entire script from Middle Earth

[00:47:25] and all of that.

[00:47:26] So it's just, they're all good.

[00:47:29] They're all good.

[00:47:30] It's amazing.

[00:47:31] It takes you into such an imaginative world.

[00:47:35] It's fantasy and it's all of it.

[00:47:37] I mean, you think of Star Trek, right?

[00:47:39] I was in my teens when we first saw the series.

[00:47:41] You look at Star Trek, it's amazing.

[00:47:43] Everything that was in Star Trek, everything that Asimov has written about

[00:47:48] is true today and we would have never thought we would have seen it in our lifetimes, right?

[00:47:53] But everything is true.

[00:47:55] It all exists except meeting extraterrestrial life forms

[00:47:59] which I think in our life will happen.

[00:48:02] Have you seen that recent series on Netflix, Three Body Problem?

[00:48:08] I just started watching it.

[00:48:10] It's brilliant, I finished it yesterday.

[00:48:12] So you just talked about aliens so that's what it's about.

[00:48:15] Yeah, yeah, I know.

[00:48:16] Time should also be there.

[00:48:19] From studies...

[00:48:20] You and I are addicted to Netflix.

[00:48:23] Yeah, yeah, we watch too much.

[00:48:25] Yeah, we watch too much.

[00:48:26] This tells us.

[00:48:28] Our screen time is horrid.

[00:48:30] Anyway, House of Dragon is 21st of June or 17th of June, something like that.

[00:48:35] Yeah, that's right.

[00:48:36] So great Raj, thank you so much.

[00:48:38] That was really interesting and a lot of very good insights.

[00:48:41] Thank you for making time as well.

[00:48:44] My pleasure.

[00:48:45] I just thought I was having a good chat.

[00:48:47] It was a very good chat.

[00:48:49] Thank you.

[00:48:50] Take care.

[00:48:51] Bye-bye Raj.

[00:48:52] Thank you.

[00:48:53] Bye.

[00:48:55] We hope this podcast encourages you to follow your dreams.

[00:48:58] We will be back soon with more chance takers.

[00:49:01] Till then have a good time and like and share this podcast.

[00:49:06] Thank you.