#1114 - Cosmologist Bernard Carr Explores the Mysteries of the Universe with Sadhguru

[00:00:01] Welcome to the Podcast, Sadhguru Of Mystics and Mistakes

[00:01:02] Because I said something in a language that you don't understand, I think I should explain a bit.

[00:01:10] I'll make it simple.

[00:01:14] It's a chant talking about how cycles of time can either crush us or trap us, or if we write them, it can liberate us.

[00:01:29] Only one who is risen above the duality of one's existence, only one who is in yoga,

[00:01:38] which means one who has known the union of one's existence with everything else, only he will rise above the time.

[00:01:46] And only one who rises above the time has mastery over life.

[00:02:00] You, sir?

[00:02:04] Well, I think the topic that is being given tonight is the discussion of making space and time for consciousness.

[00:02:16] And so one of the questions is, how does one escape time?

[00:02:25] Can one escape time?

[00:02:27] And you refer to cycles of time, which relates to the question of whether time is linear or time is cyclic, which is a great philosophical, a talk of great philosophical interest.

[00:02:43] And in fact, that is something which I would like to talk to you about.

[00:02:51] And it's a question which arises both in the context of cosmology, which is my professional discipline.

[00:03:00] When we look at the universe, it's full of cyclic processes.

[00:03:04] And even the universe itself could be a cyclic process.

[00:03:10] We don't actually know whether the universe is going to expand forever.

[00:03:15] I think everybody knows that the universe started with a big bang 14 billion years ago and has expanded.

[00:03:21] And one of the big questions is, will the expansion of the universe eventually stop so that the universe can re-collapse?

[00:03:33] Or a big crunch, as it's called.

[00:03:35] And then maybe when it forms a big crunch, it expands again.

[00:03:41] So you have a vision of a cyclic universe.

[00:03:46] Now, at the moment, most cosmologists would say we don't live in a cyclic universe because the universe is accelerating because of what's called the dark energy.

[00:03:58] We don't know what the dark energy is.

[00:04:00] It's meant to be some sort of cosmological constant.

[00:04:04] But it makes the universe accelerate rather than re-collapse.

[00:04:09] So most cosmologists, they say, well, the future of the universe is it will expand forever and it will get more or more dispersed.

[00:04:17] Eventually, we won't even be able to see the other galaxies.

[00:04:21] They'll be so far away.

[00:04:24] But that's interesting because if you read most of the religious texts,

[00:04:30] especially, I think, from the Eastern tradition, the Hindu and the Buddhist texts,

[00:04:34] there the indication is that the universe is going to re-collapse

[00:04:39] and that you will actually have cycles of the universe.

[00:04:44] And I have to confess personally, I've always favored a cyclic universe

[00:04:50] because everything in the world we know of has cycles.

[00:04:56] And my understanding, of course, you said,

[00:05:00] can you understand and know these texts much better than me?

[00:05:02] But my understanding is that if you read these religious texts,

[00:05:06] they talk about the cycles of the universe.

[00:05:11] And I know Buddha, for example, would talk about the great countenance of time for these cycles.

[00:05:19] And to me, that's fascinating because it's one example where there's a patch between conventional cosmology

[00:05:27] and the understanding of cosmology which comes from these ancient insights.

[00:05:37] Well, I'm betting that actually the ancient insights will turn out to be correct.

[00:05:43] But we don't know from a scientific point of view.

[00:05:47] And one of the reasons I say that is because I'm fascinated,

[00:05:51] I think I mentioned this on Thursday, that if you read the Vasuti Magya,

[00:05:58] Buddha would claim to get insights, clairvoyant insights into the nature of the physical universe.

[00:06:06] So there are descriptions of what we might call the solar system, the galaxy system,

[00:06:16] the classes of galaxies, the whole universe, which Buddha claimed to get through clairvoyance

[00:06:22] in his deep meditative state.

[00:06:27] And indeed, he would even assess his disciples by how far they could penetrate.

[00:06:36] And for example, a good disciple might be able to probe interstellar space.

[00:06:45] And of course, most cosmologists would not take that seriously at all.

[00:06:52] They would say, how could this be?

[00:06:53] How could somebody just sitting there in the deep tron find out things about the physical universe?

[00:07:01] However, for me, because I'm open to the concept of clairvoyance,

[00:07:08] which most of my physics colleagues aren't,

[00:07:11] I do not see why you should not expect someone who is very evolved mystically

[00:07:17] to have insights into the physical universe.

[00:07:20] And for example, one of the problems is when you're translating these ancient texts,

[00:07:26] of course, you've got to translate them into the terms, into modern terminology like galaxy.

[00:07:33] Even these words, if I can intervene in the question,

[00:07:36] because these words that somebody is saying,

[00:07:40] Buddha received in clairvoyance in a state of trance,

[00:07:44] these are wrong words. That's not if we look at it. I'll correct it later.

[00:07:48] But I'm just saying because you mentioned, when it gets translated, it gets misinterpreted.

[00:07:52] Yes, that would be the counter-argument.

[00:07:57] I'm talking about the Brahmand Hinduism.

[00:08:00] That would be the counter-argument.

[00:08:05] People are just using wisdom of hindsight to translate these words.

[00:08:10] But one other thing you can do is a specific calculation.

[00:08:12] You can calculate what is the timescale of the calpa, the grade cycle.

[00:08:19] It's defined in terms of the cycle, which I can't even pronounce.

[00:08:26] But you can work out the incorrespondence to a timescale of the grade or something.

[00:08:29] But it turns out that the time of the cycle is something like 20 billion years.

[00:08:36] And that's remarkably close. I mean, if the universe is going to re-collapse,

[00:08:40] it will re-collapse on that sort of timescale, probably.

[00:08:45] And modern cosmologists have only discovered this in the last 50 years using their telescopes.

[00:08:52] And so it's remarkable that Buddha and maybe other mystics were able to get this information

[00:08:59] in whatever it was like on the B.C. many, many years ago.

[00:09:04] So it's like we have this in a space station.

[00:09:07] So we're spending through science, we're spending billions of dollars to get this information.

[00:09:12] Whereas one's getting it from these mystical insights for free.

[00:09:20] It's not free. It's not free. It costs life.

[00:09:25] It costs life.

[00:09:29] It's not free.

[00:09:30] It costs life, it's not free.

[00:09:32] I see.

[00:09:36] Dollars come from somewhere else.

[00:09:38] Life goes waste looking at these things.

[00:09:43] To me, this is an important point about the link between science and spirituality.

[00:09:49] One thinks of them as being posed.

[00:09:50] And I think that's the truth.

[00:09:51] From my perspective, they're both studying the physical universe and they can both be applied

[00:10:00] to studying the physical universe from an outer perspective and from the inner perspective.

[00:10:07] And I think ultimately there is agreement.

[00:10:10] Well, if it's the same truth, if it's the same universe they're looking at, there has to be

[00:10:14] agreement.

[00:10:15] There has to be concordance.

[00:10:17] And I think that's remarkable.

[00:10:21] So I know there's been a tradition of inner science in philosophy for many years, thousands

[00:10:29] of years.

[00:10:30] But in Western philosophy, the focus is all on outer science.

[00:10:34] And I think part of this union between science and spirituality will be the realization that

[00:10:40] inner science and outer science must merge.

[00:10:50] Of course, my having this conversation with...

[00:10:56] So you're on the top, sir, I'm on it.

[00:11:01] And by the way, whoever prepared this laptop, it's beautiful.

[00:11:06] I mean, I don't know if it was done specially for this conversation, but all these equations,

[00:11:10] they make me feel at home.

[00:11:22] But the only thing I would like to say is we're talking about the physical universe,

[00:11:26] because I am professionally a cosmologist.

[00:11:28] So I can talk about cosmology without getting into trouble.

[00:11:32] And so when we talk about cycles and the time scale of cycles, that's conventional cosmology.

[00:11:39] And so if there are any physicists in the room...

[00:11:42] You can be.

[00:11:44] However, I know this conversation, I hope this conversation is going to veer into other domains

[00:11:49] where one is going beyond the physical universe.

[00:11:52] Because I think one of the lessons one gets from...

[00:11:57] Well, let's think of insights.

[00:11:59] Is that there are other levels of reality beyond the material.

[00:12:05] I think I refer to this as the domain of post-materialist science.

[00:12:10] And so, although I was saying that Buddha had insights into the nature of the physical universe,

[00:12:17] he of course also had insights, as I know, as Guru does,

[00:12:22] into those domains that go beyond the physical.

[00:12:26] And I was talking about...

[00:12:28] Originally, if I was talking about cycles of time,

[00:12:31] and I was talking about, so far, cycles of time within the physical cosmology.

[00:12:36] But there are also cycles of time that go beyond physics,

[00:12:40] and I know we'll get on to that later.

[00:12:42] But I should maybe ask you to react.

[00:12:45] Because today, modern science, the methodology is to come up with a concept,

[00:13:07] make a theory, build a mathematical backbone,

[00:13:10] and then look for elements of proof which could confirm those things.

[00:13:15] I believe that's a methodology.

[00:13:20] The methodology of mysticism or mysticism or yogic way of looking at things,

[00:13:28] is to turn inward and look at what we are made of.

[00:13:35] This is coming from the fundamental...

[00:13:40] In science, you would say an assumption.

[00:13:43] In my experience, I say from the fundamental knowing,

[00:13:46] the way I am made is not different from the way the universe is made.

[00:13:52] I am just a tiny bit, but still,

[00:13:56] you can sit here with these little eyes,

[00:13:59] you can look up and look at a galaxy.

[00:14:02] This is because this is made the same way,

[00:14:05] and we are able to reflect that.

[00:14:10] There are some studies people say that they have looked at the vision

[00:14:15] and mindscapes of some insects or something,

[00:14:19] some experiments have been made,

[00:14:21] where they are saying their vision and their thing doesn't go beyond their survival requirements.

[00:14:27] So, this capability we have,

[00:14:29] because we are able to reflect the entire universe within us, if you wish.

[00:14:34] In fact, everything that we are seeing is only a reflection.

[00:14:38] Right now, these people seem to be here,

[00:14:40] but we are only seeing them the way they are reflecting in the firmament of our minds.

[00:14:45] That is simply no other way to see it.

[00:14:48] So, having said that,

[00:14:50] the fundamental instruments of perception is just this.

[00:14:54] How we keep it?

[00:14:57] Different people can see different things based on how sharp they keep themselves.

[00:15:01] When I say see, I am not only talking about visual apparatus.

[00:15:04] We see through the five senses and more.

[00:15:09] So, in this context, the way we see this is because…

[00:15:16] because your cosmology inevitably your…

[00:15:20] the other day the boss didn't allow you to speak about time .

[00:15:26] Because he said, no, it's time .

[00:15:31] But you had spoken about space,

[00:15:35] which I see personally as a consequence of time.

[00:15:44] Let's… let me just articulate in simple words,

[00:15:49] what is the way we see the universe and see if… how many overlaps are there?

[00:15:57] And if there are things that don't overlap, we can examine why they don't overlap.

[00:16:04] It's like this.

[00:16:07] In the… in the yogic principle, the universe was like this.

[00:16:13] This is usually represented as an arborist, a snake, a cobra running into each other,

[00:16:19] mouth and tail included and a hood rising here.

[00:16:25] So, this is not the European arborist, I know.

[00:16:28] They make it a circle.

[00:16:30] But this is how it was.

[00:16:32] So, we call this anant.

[00:16:36] That means it's infinite.

[00:16:39] It's…

[00:16:39] Infinite.

[00:16:40] Infinite, yes.

[00:16:41] Infinite, I'm sorry.

[00:16:42] We're Indian, you know.

[00:16:45] You invented the concept.

[00:16:51] No, I'm… I want to tell you it's not a concept.

[00:16:55] This infinite or infinity was like this.

[00:16:59] The nature of infinity, I don't have to tell you but for everyone.

[00:17:05] If you make infinity plus ten, it's still infinity.

[00:17:10] Infinity minus million, still infinity.

[00:17:13] So, your mathematics don't work.

[00:17:17] You do plus, minus, multiply, divide, nothing.

[00:17:22] So, it was like this.

[00:17:24] You could do nothing with it.

[00:17:25] Then it unfolded and became like this.

[00:17:29] Then we call this Shunya.

[00:17:33] Shunya means emptiness.

[00:17:36] It became empty.

[00:17:38] What is… what was infinite became empty.

[00:17:41] This is very important to understand this.

[00:17:44] What was that which is infinite?

[00:17:46] Was it not empty?

[00:17:47] We could not even call it empty or full at that time because it's infinite.

[00:17:53] There's no plus minus to it, no multiplication… multiplication and division to it.

[00:17:58] So, it was this way, it uncoiled itself to become nothing.

[00:18:04] Nothing means we must put a hyphen between no and thing.

[00:18:08] It is a no thing.

[00:18:11] But it has a presence now.

[00:18:14] This presence, I'm assuming, maybe this presence is what the modern scientists are calling as dark energy or dark force or whatever.

[00:18:24] But it's very appropriate because we call this Shunya or Kala.

[00:18:33] The word Kala means empty.

[00:18:36] The word Kala means darkness.

[00:18:39] The word Kala means time.

[00:18:41] The word Kala means space.

[00:18:44] All these four things became somewhat manifest because it became a Kala.

[00:18:51] So, this is here as… as emptiness.

[00:18:55] But we call this infinite space.

[00:19:04] You must mark my words, it's infinite… infinite space, not time.

[00:19:11] Because there is no distinction.

[00:19:15] It is time which is unfolding to become space.

[00:19:20] So, once it became Kala like this, you can see it as emptiness.

[00:19:26] You can see it as time.

[00:19:28] You can see it as space.

[00:19:30] You can see it as the manifest… first manifestation of that which doesn't have a form.

[00:19:36] Anything that doesn't have a form is also called Kala.

[00:19:39] So, what was infinite space became zero.

[00:19:47] Now, plus one is plus one.

[00:19:50] Minus one is minus one.

[00:19:52] Suddenly, there is… there is no physicality yet, but there is a mathematical foundation for its physicality.

[00:20:00] Now, once it became empty like this, this… the word Shunya is… in terms of written word,

[00:20:09] for the first time it's seen about 400 BCE.

[00:20:15] There's a… there are documents where clearly the word Shunya and the… there's… the mark of a zero is there.

[00:20:24] It traveled to Arabia in early… you know, the next part of how we count time today.

[00:20:31] Because those divisions are not there in our minds.

[00:20:34] Because we have to communicate with the English-speaking world, we… we have also come that the cutoff date is somewhere 2000 years ago.

[00:20:44] Otherwise, we don't have those cutoffs in our minds.

[00:20:47] So, I'm… I'm just saying, A… what are you calling it now? ADE? ADE?

[00:20:52] It's not ADE anymore. What are they calling it? AC?

[00:20:55] CE.

[00:20:56] CE.

[00:20:57] It's called CE now, Common Era or something. Yeah. So, in the Common Era, in the first, second century,

[00:21:06] or maybe by third, fourth century, it traveled to Arabia. Because Indian traders were maintaining trade routes from India,

[00:21:16] from… right from the bottom of India, that is southernmost parts of India, right up to Damascus, Jerusalem, Aleppo.

[00:21:23] Even today, Aleppo city is supposed to be 8500 years old. And that city was built by taxing the Indian traders.

[00:21:31] So, the live transaction was a daily business. People were traveling quite a lot.

[00:21:38] So, it traveled to Arabia, where they called it cipher. The word cipher again meant empty.

[00:21:45] This cipher came to Europe. In Latin, they called it Zephyrium. That went to Venice, Venice,

[00:21:53] where it was the hub of many things happening in Europe. And there, they called it zero. And the English called it cipher.

[00:22:01] These days, nobody is using that word cipher. When we were growing up, it was common to use the word cipher in English language.

[00:22:07] But I don't know in… It's a code. It's a secret code. Oh, is it?

[00:22:12] The word cipher is the… Zero. Yeah.

[00:22:15] It's connected with coding, but this is a different comment. Yeah. We used to use the word cipher as a zero.

[00:22:21] When say, it was used in a derogatory way, oh, he's a cipher . Once he's nothing kind of thing.

[00:22:29] So, this aspect, once it became nothingness, but it was a firmament of tremendous existence, but without physical form.

[00:22:44] Then we go into a more, hmm, what to say, a dialectical way of expressing this, where we say, we're calling this khala as a being.

[00:22:56] A large, formless… Not large, infinite, formless being. Infinite cannot have a form, of course. So, it's a being. And he breathes. He was inhaling.

[00:23:08] Inhaling is a long process, maybe running into millions or billions of years. There are calculations for that. I'm not the mathematician for that.

[00:23:15] And when he exhaled, when he exhaled, it's not that he has nostrils, he exhales from everywhere. If you… He did not have nostrils.

[00:23:25] Actually, even our skin is res… You know, it's not only perspiring, it's also respiring, you know? So, we are breathing through our…

[00:23:32] Every pore in the skin like that when he breathes, that created a certain amount of energy. That we call as shakti. Shakti came out of him.

[00:23:41] When energy came out of him, then this… This firmament of nothingness, which is a powerful force, it started reverberating initially, then caused ripples.

[00:23:53] Those ripples led to cyclical moments. So, with these cyclical moments, the first physical forms came out. And it all over burst forth.

[00:24:04] As these cycles became more and more complicated, from whatever we call as electrons, protons, atoms, planetary systems, universes, all these evolved because of cyclical moments.

[00:24:19] Fundamentally, we see physicality as a consequence of cyclical moments. Our very birth is because of the cyclical moments in our mother's bodies, otherwise we wouldn't be born.

[00:24:32] That is a yogic doomsday you would like to know, sir. So, studying these cycles, feeling these cycles in our own bodies and studying these cycles,

[00:24:43] things were figured out because we were more interested in how to transform life here and how to make a human being go beyond these cycles.

[00:24:53] As I said earlier, the cycles of time are such they can crush you. Why in their childhood they were like this and now they become like this, lot of people. Time has crushed them.

[00:25:09] People think it's their experiences of life, this and that. No, that is only an excuse. It's actually time which has crushed them.

[00:25:17] Or the same time could trap people. They're okay but they're bored and they don't know what to do with themselves.

[00:25:23] Do we crush them in the sense that they don't?

[00:25:26] No, that will anyway happen but when they're alive they feel crushed by time. The cycles of time just crushes them day in and day out.

[00:25:37] Many people wish the sun doesn't come up tomorrow morning but it comes up and they have to go to work. It crushes them.

[00:25:46] You know in United States they have, thank God it's Friday. It means they don't have to wake up tomorrow morning .

[00:25:58] TGIF. Yes .

[00:26:01] We used to have the TGIF celebration . So, this… we want to break these cycles. So, any cycle naturally has a centripetal force and a centrifugal force.

[00:26:19] If you get caught up in the centripetal, you get crushed. If you ride the centrifugal, then you're released. A tangent is formed.

[00:26:29] So, to attain to this tangent is the goal of life in the East. We call this mukti, nirvana, moksha, whatever.

[00:26:39] Essentially, we want to ride the physical cycles in such a way we are liberated from the physical cycles.

[00:26:47] Now, is this all conceptual? Is it simply a story? This is not a story. Like you said, I'm more conversant with the texts.

[00:27:00] I'm… I kept myself very consciously illiterate, very consciously uneducated because if you cloud your mind with a lot of information, you won't see things as they are.

[00:27:13] Because some pieces of information may so impress you, you will get identified with it. Once you get identified with it, you will not see it.

[00:27:24] How did people see these things? How did people come up with these things? This is always a question.

[00:27:29] Well, how did the modern scientists see something? Today, everybody is talking about Hubble and whatever the other one, John… what? John Space?

[00:27:37] James Webb Space. James Webb Space, whatever. What is the… what are these instruments?

[00:27:44] These instruments are just extensions of our own senses. Only because we have ice. Only because we have ice, the telescope means something.

[00:27:54] Otherwise, it's a… what is a telescope for a man who has no ice? Simply nothing, all right? It's just a pipe.

[00:28:02] With a few mirrors and maybe lances or whatever it is, it's just a pipe. It's a metal pipe. We can use it for something, but you can't use it because inside they have blocked it with so many things.

[00:28:11] Quite expensive.

[00:28:13] Expensive pipe. I agree with that. So, I am saying only because we have ice, we are making instruments which will extend our ice.

[00:28:23] So, this extension was done in so many different ways. One of the things that we did was that we created energetic forms which would make us look very, very far.

[00:28:37] Today, unfortunately, it is all being misunderstood and misrepresented. But there were instruments with which we could look very far. We could open windows into the cosmos.

[00:28:49] These we called as our deities. These are not gods. There is no concept of god in the East.

[00:28:57] Are you talking about modern telescopes or ancient?

[00:29:01] Both. There were no… there were no ancient telescopes. This is…

[00:29:05] Are they metaphorical?

[00:29:06] Yes, they… they saw things by creating energetic forms. You have definitely heard of… because he was in your neighborhood, Ramanujam.

[00:29:16] Yes.

[00:29:16] So, when people asked him… some… the three thousand nine hundred mathematical formulations he came out with, which is still being debated and discussed and people are trying to understand what he wrote.

[00:29:29] When people asked him… he was dying of tuberculosis. He sat on his deathbed and simply poured out mathematics.

[00:29:37] When people asked him, how does this come? He said, my Devi, which means my goddess, bleeds mathematics.

[00:29:47] Ramanujam was at my college, Trinity.

[00:29:49] Yes.

[00:29:49] Ramanujam was at my college, Trinity.

[00:29:50] Ramanujam was at my time, so I had a message.

[00:29:53] And to me that is a fascinating example of how one can get information about the universe, not just through the intellect, but through inspiration.

[00:30:03] As you say, he…

[00:30:05] No, no, no, sir. If I want… if I should correct that, sir, I'm sorry I'm intervening on this.

[00:30:09] You never get information through your intellect. You get information through your senses and there in the… in the intellect you mess it up .

[00:30:22] I mean to say you match it with the old information and try to make sense out of it.

[00:30:27] I… I wouldn't… I wouldn't like to admit that we always mess it up, but I think…

[00:30:32] No, no, I'm saying we're trying to make sense out of it.

[00:30:35] No, no, no. I'm saying we're trying to make sense out of it.

[00:30:35] But normally what we think is sensible right now is actually blocking us because what we think is smart, we can't leave.

[00:30:43] What we think is stupid, we can leave easily.

[00:30:48] So, you've made so many interesting points, Sadhguru, that…

[00:30:53] Well, I'm not sure I can remember them all, but can I react to something?

[00:30:57] I will remind you.

[00:31:03] First of all, I'm glad you mentioned Ramanujan and mathematics because one of the fascinating things about physics is that ultimately the language of physics is mathematics.

[00:31:16] You can see a few equations behind.

[00:31:20] And… and that is showing that our understanding, because mathematics is a creation of the mind.

[00:31:30] And there's a furious circularity because mathematics underlies physics, physics underlies our understanding of the universe.

[00:31:41] The universe produces life and brains, and then the brains produce the minds which produce the mathematics.

[00:31:52] So you've got this curious cycle, the fact that the universe is comprehensible.

[00:31:59] I mean, you were sort of decrying, in a certain sense, intellect, but intellect is part of the process involved in mathematics.

[00:32:07] It's an incomplete process, because it's just the left-hand side of the brain trying to sort of understand things.

[00:32:14] And to me that's always fascinating, why mathematics is actually able to describe the universe.

[00:32:22] It's a miracle. We talked about miracles quite a lot, but it seems such a miracle that human beings, with their limited brains, are able to understand so much of the universe.

[00:32:36] I mean, we've only been around, well, 10,000 years or whatever it is, and yet we already claim we can almost understand the universe.

[00:32:46] Physicists claim they can almost understand the universe completely.

[00:32:49] Now, I suspect that claim will turn out to be wrong, but at least it is a miracle that we can understand so much.

[00:32:56] So that's why I sort of reacted to the argument that intellect messes things up.

[00:33:01] I agree it's often wrong, and in fact I suspect most things turn out to be wrong in the end in physics.

[00:33:07] But one shouldn't worry too much about what's right and wrong.

[00:33:11] I think what's interesting is the path.

[00:33:14] I think most theories of physics end up being wrong.

[00:33:17] But that doesn't mean it isn't useful, because it's the path which is important, rather than the final paradigm, which is always going to change.

[00:33:26] But I remember there's a statement that mathematics is the language of God.

[00:33:32] I don't know if this is a statement in the philosophy.

[00:33:37] Mathematics is the language of God, as he sometimes said.

[00:33:41] On the other hand, I know that Rumi said that the language of God is science.

[00:33:48] And that maybe is more consistent than what he's saying.

[00:33:51] So that's the first point I wanted to make, the importance of mathematics, although ultimately it can't view everything.

[00:34:00] I still think it's important.

[00:34:01] And that's why I loved your reference to Ramanujan, who was a spokesman for mathematics,

[00:34:07] which came, I think from his days, from his angels, rather than just through his intellect.

[00:34:15] Now, I loved the moment when you took your infinity and it turned into zero.

[00:34:24] Because as people will know, I spoke about the cosmic Euronberus in my talk on Thursday.

[00:34:31] And I love the cosmic Euronberus because it encapsulates all the triumph of physics coming to understand the universe.

[00:34:40] But of course, the most interesting aspect of the Euronberus is where the head meets the tail.

[00:34:47] And I said, well, the head corresponds to the universe.

[00:34:53] We know how big the universe is, 10 to the 20 centimetres.

[00:34:57] And the tail corresponds to the plank scale, 10 to the minus 33 centimetres.

[00:35:03] Well, those are only the biggest and smallest scales as we understand it.

[00:35:09] Really, what those scales represent.

[00:35:13] It's infinity and zero.

[00:35:17] The larger scale is infinity and the smaller scale is zero.

[00:35:21] And of course, we reduce them to finite amounts so we can understand them.

[00:35:26] But to me, the real, really interesting point about the Euronberus, top of the Euronberus,

[00:35:33] is that is where infinity meets zero.

[00:35:38] Now, the symbol of the Euronberus is like a zero, Euronberus.

[00:35:44] But the symbol which Sadhguru used is, of course, the symbol of infinity.

[00:35:51] And I came across your representation of that on the website somewhere.

[00:35:56] It's a beautiful image.

[00:35:56] In fact, I think I even showed it briefly at the beginning of my talk.

[00:36:00] But I'm not sure if it was intended.

[00:36:02] But to me, that was a fascinating thought because it shows that, in some sense, infinity is zero.

[00:36:09] And that's how the universe began because, from a physicist point of view, the universe begun in a vacuum.

[00:36:19] We don't know exactly what happened at the beginning of the universe.

[00:36:22] But in some sense, there was just pure energy.

[00:36:25] There was no mountain, no fall, no structure.

[00:36:28] So it just started out of a vacuum.

[00:36:33] And the vacuum, I suppose, corresponds to zero.

[00:36:36] But it also corresponds to infinity.

[00:36:39] Because, from my perspective at least, at the top of the Euronberus,

[00:36:44] that may be the end of physics as we understand it.

[00:36:48] But actually, from my perspective, that is where mind and spirit come in.

[00:36:55] And so that, from my perspective, if we want to have an extension of physics,

[00:37:01] it's there at the top of the Euronberus that we're going to somehow find mind and spirit.

[00:37:08] And maybe, from a cosmological perspective, that is where the universe has come from.

[00:37:16] Because if you believe that mind, in some sense, was prior to matter, you will find it there.

[00:37:22] At the top of the Euronberus, precisely where your zero and your infinity meet.

[00:37:29] Now, and then you refer to all the different cycles of time.

[00:37:34] The other thing about the Euronberus is that there are all those different levels of structure.

[00:37:40] You remember I talked about the biological time, the human beings, the planetary time, the stellar time, galactic time.

[00:37:48] So the physical world is full of all these cycles.

[00:37:53] And so when the material world was created in the Big Bang,

[00:38:00] it led, through a process of evolution, to all these different levels of structure,

[00:38:05] which had all the different cycles, all the different time scales,

[00:38:09] which of course range over a huge range.

[00:38:13] I mean, that cosmic Euronberus was expressed in terms of space, in terms of time, spaces, the scales of things.

[00:38:21] It could equally well have been expressed in terms of the time scales of things.

[00:38:26] Because every length scale goes with a time scale.

[00:38:29] You mentioned space and time are intimately connected.

[00:38:32] And so you could also put time scales around that diagram.

[00:38:36] Every level of structure has a time scale associated with it.

[00:38:40] And so that is a manifestation of the physical world, that there are all these cycles.

[00:38:47] And we as human beings, of course, we experience a limited range of these cycles.

[00:38:52] And I was impressed, almost depressed, when you said how it's the cycles which can overwhelm us.

[00:39:03] The experience of these cycles can be almost depressing, because you feel that it's just in everyday life, constantly.

[00:39:11] I always, I hate shopping.

[00:39:13] And having to go shopping every day, especially when my wife is away, and having to everyday shop and then cook every day and then wash every day,

[00:39:25] it's a bit overwhelming. So I speak to my...

[00:39:32] And... but that's part of this part of cycles.

[00:39:38] And what... but Paul...

[00:39:39] Sir, I must tell you in common what's happening. Is it okay? Hello?

[00:39:48] Yes.

[00:39:48] Sir, I must tell you in yoga, these cycles are referred to as samsara.

[00:39:53] Yes.

[00:39:54] But in common society, in the language, the word samsara means family .

[00:40:05] Well, I can... I don't have any children, but I can imagine that's...

[00:40:11] I can imagine that's all.

[00:40:14] Suppose you went to your lab and you found a new universe, it doesn't matter, you still have to come home .

[00:40:25] But it's... and yet, of course, and across from Buddhism, I understand the concept of samsara and... and the constant cycle of birth and rebirth and how one needs to escape from that.

[00:40:38] And so my understanding is that although there are all these cycles in the physical world, that there is an escape from all those cycles, which I understand.

[00:40:49] That there are all those cycles in the physical world, that there are all those cycles in the physical world.

[00:40:57] And I have to say personally, I've never had it. I'm not a very spiritually evolved person and I know I'm not going to become enlightened.

[00:41:06] Why? Why do you say that?

[00:41:07] Well, I... I... I... I... because I need more...

[00:41:09] You... you're... you're trying to destroy my work .

[00:41:14] Because my work is to make sure that everybody... it doesn't matter who you are, what you are, the possibility is always there.

[00:41:22] Will you invest in the possibility or not? That's left to individuals.

[00:41:26] But if you say, it's not possible, then you're trying to destroy my work. Don't do that.

[00:41:33] Well... well, if by becoming enlightened I can justify your work, I will strive to...

[00:41:45] All I... all I... all I mean is that I... I don't personally feel I've been very successful. I mean, I meditate on this.

[00:41:52] But... but... and I know... but I have many spiritual friends .

[00:42:01] I like to think that their spirituality rubs off all these...

[00:42:08] No, sir. This is a... a wrong sense of the term spirituality spreading around in the world.

[00:42:17] To be spiritual, you need not be going to a temple, church or mosque.

[00:42:21] You need not be praying, you need not be meditating, nothing.

[00:42:25] It is just that... if you're sincere enough... I'm using the word sincere because...

[00:42:31] If you're sincere enough, you know you don't know a damn thing.

[00:42:37] That means you're always... your intelligence is always seeking.

[00:42:41] If you keep yourself that way, you're spiritual. So I'm not given up on you .

[00:42:50] I feel I will be more spiritual after this conversation.

[00:42:58] And so... one thing I would like to talk about... because actually I would like to... to get some information from you if I can.

[00:43:09] Because... although I'm a theorist and I'm speculating about the nature of time and cultures...

[00:43:15] I have this feeling you probably know all the answers, or at least some of the answers.

[00:43:19] So I would like to ask how some of my ideas relate to your insights.

[00:43:25] And it's to do with the nature of time and indeed the nature of space.

[00:43:32] In my talk on Thursday, I was trying to explain that if you want to expand physics to accommodate consciousness...

[00:43:45] By which I mean mind and spirit.

[00:43:48] Because consciousness is everywhere in matter, mind and spirit.

[00:43:52] But you have to expand your concept of space and your concept of time.

[00:43:59] Now, I already spoke on Thursday about in what sense I felt you had to expand your concept of space.

[00:44:08] But just to recap, just in case there were some people not there...

[00:44:11] My argument was that most mental and many spiritual experiences do require a space.

[00:44:21] And I was referring to dream space, out-of-body space, the space of a near-death experience, the space of ghosts...

[00:44:34] ...even of some mystical experiences. Not all mystical experiences, because some go beyond space and time.

[00:44:41] And what I argued was that you need some higher dimensional space, because it's not just physical space.

[00:44:49] It goes beyond physical space.

[00:44:52] And then what I said was this higher dimensional space, it corresponds to a higher dimensional reality...

[00:44:59] ...which reconciles all our experiences in the world. Not just in the physical world, but of all the worlds.

[00:45:08] And so that was my claim.

[00:45:10] And then the point I made was that even physics itself claims that there are higher dimensions.

[00:45:16] Because you should have a three dimensional space.

[00:45:18] Einstein said that there's four dimensional space.

[00:45:21] Space and time being merged, which of course agrees with what you were saying earlier.

[00:45:27] And space and time are basically the same.

[00:45:30] And then I explained how they introduced the fifth dimensions, explain electromagnetism.

[00:45:36] And then how they introduced six more dimensions in order to...

[00:45:41] ...in superstring theory, in order to describe all the physical interactions.

[00:45:46] So then you had a ten dimensional world.

[00:45:49] And then finally I said with M-theory, we had the idea there was another dimension.

[00:45:53] So you have an eleven dimensional space.

[00:45:57] And Sadhguru made the fascinating remark, which was new to me, that actually eleven dimensions is precisely what arises in some of the traditions.

[00:46:05] Maybe we can come back to that.

[00:46:06] But then the real...

[00:46:08] The key point I wanted to make was that in one particular version of M-theory, the physical

[00:46:14] meaning is a slice in a higher dimensional space.

[00:46:18] The slice is called the brain, B-R-A-N-E, and the higher dimensional space, the five dimensional

[00:46:25] space is called the buck.

[00:46:28] And so physics gives you a higher dimensional space, which in the material world is the slice.

[00:46:35] And so your experience, your mental and spiritual experience gives you a higher dimensional space.

[00:46:41] So the main point I made on Thursday is why can't we identify these two spaces?

[00:46:47] This is not a view that many of my physics colleagues will share, because they don't want to be associated with this system.

[00:46:55] But that's my personal view.

[00:46:57] I don't want you to give the impression that I am...

[00:47:00] This is the mainstream physics view.

[00:47:03] I'll get into trouble with my physics colleagues.

[00:47:06] But it's...

[00:47:07] Mike.

[00:47:09] But that was talking about space.

[00:47:12] But what I didn't talk about...

[00:47:16] Because I'll find Chairman...

[00:47:20] I didn't talk about time.

[00:47:23] So...

[00:47:23] Can I speak for about five minutes about time?

[00:47:27] And then I'm going to ask...

[00:47:29] Saiguro...

[00:47:30] That's a lot of time, sir.

[00:47:34] You see, what is fascinating about consciousness is that it involves the passage of time.

[00:47:43] When you say I am conscious, one can argue about what you mean by conscious.

[00:47:47] There's a distinction between the contents of consciousness, which is what I'm normally referring to when I talk about space, the consciousness.

[00:47:55] But the experience of consciousness...

[00:47:57] This must change.

[00:47:58] You should not say space like this.

[00:48:00] Ah...

[00:48:01] How do you know that?

[00:48:06] Okay.

[00:48:07] So, conscious...

[00:48:12] And hopefully time like this.

[00:48:15] Which means the chairman can't stop him.

[00:48:23] Anyway...

[00:48:23] The point is this...

[00:48:26] What you've got to realize...

[00:48:28] Einstein, with his theory of special relativism...

[00:48:31] He'd run it up space and time.

[00:48:33] He'd realize that the world is four dimensional, with the fourth dimension being time.

[00:48:39] And so, you as a human being, your body is like a world line in this...

[00:48:45] Can you imagine space and time in two dimensions?

[00:48:48] I hope I can use my hands.

[00:48:50] But you imagine space and time in two dimensions to make it simpler.

[00:48:54] You are like a lion.

[00:48:57] Your world line in this...

[00:48:59] Four dimensional space is represented as two dimensional space.

[00:49:04] But in Einstein's picture, it's called the Bloch universe.

[00:49:09] Past, present and future coexist.

[00:49:13] There is no time.

[00:49:15] But in your conscious experience...

[00:49:18] You think of yourself as moving through time.

[00:49:21] So, if you imagine your world line is a brain...

[00:49:25] You sort of think in your consciousness...

[00:49:27] It's like a little bee which is traveling along that wire.

[00:49:30] That's your experience.

[00:49:32] So, right now it's ten to five, but it will be five o'clock in ten minutes...

[00:49:36] And it was quarter to five, five minutes ago.

[00:49:39] But the point is that...

[00:49:41] That does not happen in relativity theory.

[00:49:44] In relativity theory, there is no passage of time.

[00:49:49] And this is well understood.

[00:49:51] And this is why many physicists and philosophers say...

[00:49:55] It is an illusion.

[00:49:57] The passage of time is an illusion.

[00:50:00] And yet we will experience it.

[00:50:04] Now, what I'm saying is...

[00:50:06] That mind, the experience of consciousness...

[00:50:09] Is not actually part of our current future of physics.

[00:50:13] It's not part of relativity.

[00:50:16] And the passage...

[00:50:18] It's the lowest passage of time really in quantum theory.

[00:50:23] Time has a different stage in quantum theory.

[00:50:26] So, how do you explain this?

[00:50:28] Well, the way various physicists...

[00:50:31] Well, various philosophers have explained it, including myself...

[00:50:34] Is you have to say there is an extra dimension.

[00:50:37] Which is an extra dimension of time.

[00:50:39] Which corresponds...

[00:50:41] If you are up to mental time, as opposed to physical time.

[00:50:46] So, this is why I say...

[00:50:48] Current physics, meaning relativity theory and quantum theory...

[00:50:51] Cannot explain the experience of consciousness.

[00:50:55] But the final theory of physics, which is going to reconcile relativity and quantum theory...

[00:51:01] That has to explain consciousness.

[00:51:02] And it has to include this extra dimension.

[00:51:05] Because what I'm saying is...

[00:51:06] Mental time is an extra dimension.

[00:51:10] Sounds okay?

[00:51:11] Everyone's convinced?

[00:51:13] Good.

[00:51:15] But there's another feature of consciousness which is really crucial.

[00:51:19] And this is to do with what I call the specious present.

[00:51:24] This is the minimum timescale of experience.

[00:51:29] You see...

[00:51:31] When we're normal human beings, we only...

[00:51:34] There's a minimum time that we can experience.

[00:51:37] Which is something like a 10%...

[00:51:40] You imagine my finger...

[00:51:42] With the light.

[00:51:43] If I move this light around in a circle, you'll see that light going round.

[00:51:48] Okay?

[00:51:49] But if it goes round too fast...

[00:51:51] If it goes round more than 10 times a second, you won't see it as motion.

[00:51:55] You'll see a continuous light.

[00:51:57] Okay?

[00:51:58] So, there is no time on a timescale less than a tenth of a second.

[00:52:02] Which is basically the specious present.

[00:52:05] On the other hand, if this little light moves around too slowly,

[00:52:10] you won't see it moving either.

[00:52:12] That's to do with the timescale of memory.

[00:52:14] So, our experience of time only extends over a really short range of times.

[00:52:22] From something like a tenth of a second, maybe.

[00:52:25] A thousand seconds.

[00:52:27] That's what we mean by human consciousness.

[00:52:31] So, this concept of the specious present is a very old concept.

[00:52:36] It actually goes back to William James.

[00:52:37] It goes back more than a hundred years.

[00:52:40] But even many philosophers don't talk about it.

[00:52:42] So, consciousness comes with a specious present.

[00:52:46] And our specious present is actually...

[00:52:48] I'll say a tenth of a second.

[00:52:52] Now, we as humans are very arrogant.

[00:52:55] We assume that that is the only level of consciousness in the universe.

[00:53:02] Well...

[00:53:02] Not human, sir. Physician.

[00:53:04] It was...

[00:53:05] It was...

[00:53:07] Okay, absolutely.

[00:53:09] Well, I suppose...

[00:53:10] Exactly.

[00:53:12] When I say...

[00:53:14] humans are arrogant, I don't mean all humans.

[00:53:16] I mean certain.

[00:53:17] Especially most of my scientific part,

[00:53:19] we're assuming that we are...

[00:53:24] Obviously not...

[00:53:25] No.

[00:53:29] The question is, therefore...

[00:53:32] This specious present...

[00:53:36] I said it's a tenth of a second.

[00:53:37] But actually it can change.

[00:53:38] And we all know it can change in certain circumstances.

[00:53:42] I expect you've had the experience...

[00:53:45] You're in a crisis situation.

[00:53:48] Say you're falling off a mountain.

[00:53:50] I don't know if anyone's fallen off a mountain.

[00:53:53] But...

[00:53:53] Time seems to slow down.

[00:53:56] Or maybe you're in a car accident.

[00:53:58] And the outside world, everything seems to be in slow motion.

[00:54:00] That's because your specious present...

[00:54:02] Has sort of...

[00:54:03] Has sort of shrunk.

[00:54:05] And so that happens.

[00:54:07] You can have another experience.

[00:54:09] For example...

[00:54:10] Where your specious present expands.

[00:54:12] I know in the case some of you was in a...

[00:54:14] Very ill...

[00:54:15] Was lying in bed.

[00:54:16] And saw this flashing light at the window.

[00:54:20] And couldn't work out what it was.

[00:54:22] But it turned out this flashing light...

[00:54:25] Was arising in the setting of the sun.

[00:54:27] But their specious present had expanded.

[00:54:29] So that it seemed...

[00:54:31] To be a flashing...

[00:54:33] A flashing light.

[00:54:35] It's a question of a relationship between your mental time and physical time.

[00:54:40] Now of course most...

[00:54:43] Most...

[00:54:43] Neuroscientists will probably think that can be explained...

[00:54:47] Because there must be some sort of plot in time...

[00:54:49] Inside the brain.

[00:54:51] Sir, one second.

[00:54:53] Yes.

[00:54:53] Because there's a lot of things.

[00:54:54] If each one of those things if we unpack together...

[00:54:57] Absolutely.

[00:54:57] It will be good.

[00:54:58] Because you're saying so many things.

[00:54:59] We will...

[00:55:00] By the time we come back...

[00:55:02] No, I can...

[00:55:02] So are you.

[00:55:03] So are you.

[00:55:03] Sorry.

[00:55:13] Yes.

[00:55:13] Because...

[00:55:17] The important thing is...

[00:55:19] I think Einstein is committing incest.

[00:55:22] When he says, we will marry time and space.

[00:55:25] I don't know whether he said it or not.

[00:55:26] You said.

[00:55:30] Because what we are seeing as space, in my experience, is a consequence of time.

[00:55:36] Time has given birth to space.

[00:55:40] Time has given birth to space.

[00:55:41] And our sense of time is essentially because of cyclical moments.

[00:55:45] Otherwise we don't know time.

[00:55:47] Right now people are sitting here.

[00:55:50] Well, if this goes for an hour and a half to...

[00:55:53] They're okay.

[00:55:54] It doesn't matter what great truth you talk.

[00:55:57] If it becomes four hours, they will slowly slip out.

[00:56:00] Because...

[00:56:01] Not the clock.

[00:56:02] Their bladder keeps time.

[00:56:04] Their backside keeps time.

[00:56:06] Their lower back keeps time.

[00:56:09] Hello?

[00:56:10] Yes.

[00:56:11] Suppose they didn't have a body.

[00:56:13] We took away their bodies.

[00:56:15] Then if we sat here for two million years, they have no problem.

[00:56:21] So, we have become...

[00:56:23] We as physical beings are a consequence of time,

[00:56:27] which is essentially cyclical moments of physical material.

[00:56:32] We are a consequence of that.

[00:56:34] If we rise above our physicality, there is no sense of time in us.

[00:56:38] This is what unfortunately the Western observers are saying is trance.

[00:56:45] Somebody has risen above his physical state.

[00:56:49] Now, he sits here.

[00:56:51] You think he's sitting here whatever number of days,

[00:56:55] but he...

[00:56:56] In his experience, he's sitting for a few moments.

[00:56:59] It's a living experience for me in my life.

[00:57:02] And there are any number of people who've gone into deeper processes

[00:57:05] where if you make them sit in a certain state, they don't know any sense of time.

[00:57:10] Time just like that.

[00:57:11] So, how much impact?

[00:57:14] When I said you can either get crushed by time, or you can be trapped by time,

[00:57:20] or you can be liberated by riding the time,

[00:57:23] how deeply you're identified with your physicality,

[00:57:27] that's how much power time has over you.

[00:57:30] If you're not so physically identified,

[00:57:33] now you are a scientist, you're...

[00:57:35] Lot happening up there.

[00:57:38] Now you go into your laboratory or wherever you go,

[00:57:41] you don't know when to eat.

[00:57:43] There are some people, their stomach tells them all the time,

[00:57:47] when to eat, when to go to the bathroom, when they should go again.

[00:57:52] In the office, you will see many of them in eight hours of work,

[00:57:56] are going to the bathroom four to five times,

[00:57:58] and going to eat and drink another five times.

[00:58:02] Because completely ruled by the body.

[00:58:04] If suddenly you became more interested in something else,

[00:58:08] you don't know when to eat, when to pee, when not to do.

[00:58:11] Because bodily influence on you, the power of the body is gone.

[00:58:15] Once the power of the body is gone on you,

[00:58:17] the power of time is gone on you.

[00:58:20] So, if you're completely free from that,

[00:58:22] you are beyond time process.

[00:58:25] But how do we come to this?

[00:58:28] We look at human body as a construct like this.

[00:58:32] There is a physical body,

[00:58:34] which is an accumulation of the food that we have eaten.

[00:58:37] This is the hardware that we built.

[00:58:40] There is a software which you're calling as a mental space, is it?

[00:58:43] I'm sorry, mental space.

[00:58:45] It's a mental body, we call that also as body.

[00:58:48] We're calling everything body.

[00:58:50] All the five aspects we call it as body,

[00:58:52] because body means you can observe, you can learn.

[00:58:57] Space is a vague thing.

[00:59:00] So, there is a mental body.

[00:59:02] There is memory and information and intelligence right across.

[00:59:06] So, the mental body, this is the software.

[00:59:09] Hardware, software together can do nothing unless it's plugged into power.

[00:59:14] So, the third layer, we call this as the pranamaya kosha or the energy body.

[00:59:18] So, it's plugged in and these things are functioning.

[00:59:21] Most human beings live their life between physical, mental bodies.

[00:59:28] Very rarely there may be little bit of experience in the pranic body or the energy body.

[00:59:34] The next dimension of the body is called vijyanamaya kosha.

[00:59:40] Vijyana literally means is, jhyana means to know.

[00:59:46] Vijyana means it is a combination of two words, vishesh jhyana.

[00:59:51] That means an extraordinary knowledge.

[00:59:56] Extraordinary knowledge means anything that we don't perceive through our sense perception,

[01:00:01] but we perceived it.

[01:00:03] Then we call this vishesh jhyana or vijyan.

[01:00:06] Today in India, the word science has been described as vijyan.

[01:00:12] Right now in school subjects, it's called vijnan.

[01:00:16] Because we are saying this is extraordinary knowledge.

[01:00:19] Because you… what your eyes could not see, your telescope saw.

[01:00:23] So, we are saying you are having extraordinary knowledge.

[01:00:26] Because beyond the sense perception, you extended it somehow.

[01:00:29] It doesn't matter how.

[01:00:31] How you extended it, somehow using a physical mechanism or using your own power of extending your eyes,

[01:00:38] somehow or the other you saw something that your eyes cannot see.

[01:00:42] So, we call this vijyan.

[01:00:44] So, general science is called vijyan in India now.

[01:00:48] So, this vijyanamaya kosha, per lack of English words, some people describe it as the etheric body.

[01:00:58] What this means is, it's a transitional body.

[01:01:01] Between physicality and non-physicality, there's a transition.

[01:01:05] So, now, from what you are saying, because I'm not much of a scientist by any standards.

[01:01:11] So, what I perceive is, science is little bit putting its tentacles or its… what do you call this?

[01:01:20] The cockroach's two things.

[01:01:22] Antenna.

[01:01:24] Antenna.

[01:01:24] Antenna.

[01:01:25] You're putting your antenna into vijyanamaya kosha, but not able to enter.

[01:01:30] The fifth layer of the body, we call it as bliss body, not because there's a bubble of bliss inside,

[01:01:37] simply because we do not know what is its nature.

[01:01:41] Because it's not physical at all, we cannot define by any word or describe it by any description.

[01:01:48] So, we say bliss body because this is child's language.

[01:01:53] It is like, your child sees a speaker, let's say, a speaker like this and you say boom, boom.

[01:02:01] So, in that language we are talking.

[01:02:03] When we touch it, our experience becomes so bliss… blissful.

[01:02:07] So, we are saying this is bliss body.

[01:02:09] We are not saying that is the nature of that.

[01:02:12] We are saying when we touch it, we eat something and it's sweet.

[01:02:17] Because sweet is our experience.

[01:02:19] That is not the nature of what it is.

[01:02:21] This is our experience.

[01:02:22] So, we call it bliss body.

[01:02:24] Right now, please, I am not trying to be countering something.

[01:02:29] I am just trying to define my understanding of this.

[01:02:33] From what you are saying, I see that you are nibbling at vijyanamaya kosha.

[01:02:40] But to cross it, if you don't come out of the…

[01:02:45] The other day I called it a dungeon, today I will remain into foundations.

[01:02:49] The foundations of logic you must cross.

[01:02:53] Because logic can function only with two.

[01:02:57] This and that.

[01:02:59] Without that you cannot.

[01:03:00] Now, these two things have gone till here.

[01:03:03] It needs to become like this.

[01:03:04] So, somebody married time and space.

[01:03:07] That needs to happen within us.

[01:03:09] You can… this marriage of time and space or merger of time and space can only happen

[01:03:16] if you transcend your physical nature.

[01:03:18] Otherwise, it will not go there.

[01:03:22] Thank you.

[01:03:23] I would like to respond because I think I can connect with what you are saying.

[01:03:28] And I am quite happy to say that I am…

[01:03:30] I am quite happy to accept that I am nibbling.

[01:03:33] But I quite enjoy it.

[01:03:35] No, I am not talking about you personally.

[01:03:37] I am saying…

[01:03:37] No, I understand.

[01:03:38] Because generally through logic you are trying to nibble at something which doesn't fit into

[01:03:44] logical space.

[01:03:45] I entirely accept that one reaches a point beyond logic, beyond mathematics.

[01:03:51] But nevertheless, I would argue that you can extend the logic and the mathematics beyond the physical domain.

[01:04:02] Because I was making a distinction between physical time and another level of time which is not physical,

[01:04:10] but nevertheless subject to logic and subject to mathematics.

[01:04:14] So I think what I am saying is that there is an intermediate regime between the material domain,

[01:04:20] which most physicists think about, and that domain which goes beyond logic and mathematics altogether.

[01:04:27] So I think what I am talking about, what I am nibbling at if you like, is that intermediate domain.

[01:04:34] So I don't think that is in contradiction with what you are saying.

[01:04:38] But I mean just to…

[01:04:40] I was talking before about how your experience of the specious present can change.

[01:04:46] But that was all in the circumstances where the specious present was presumably related to what was going on in the physical body.

[01:04:55] But the point I wanted to make was that you may have a psychic or a mystical experience where your experience of time is very different indeed.

[01:05:07] So for example, you might have a near-death experience in which your whole life is seen in an instant.

[01:05:17] Okay?

[01:05:18] Rather than just as a…

[01:05:19] Wow.

[01:05:19] For a hundred years it is just seen in one moment.

[01:05:22] Because in some sense your specious presence in that state of mind has expanded to be a whole life.

[01:05:30] And my understanding is, from the literature not from experience, is that in various mystical states,

[01:05:38] it is like you can be expanding, changing your specious present, like a dial on a radio, so that you experience the world at a different level of consciousness.

[01:05:50] And that different level of consciousness corresponding to a different specious present.

[01:05:57] And so, I mean, the point I was going to make was that it's very arrogant to assume that the only level of consciousness in the universe is human being.

[01:06:07] I don't myself see why there shouldn't be a hierarchy of level of consciousness on timescales much larger and much smaller than this human being.

[01:06:17] I don't see why, for example, why there shouldn't be a planetary level of consciousness with a much longer species present, maybe a day.

[01:06:27] Why there shouldn't be a solar level of consciousness, which might be a hundred years.

[01:06:34] Why there couldn't be a galactic level of consciousness and why there couldn't be a cosmic level of consciousness.

[01:06:40] So, I would say within this perspective, this is why I'm putting the emphasis on species present.

[01:06:46] I don't see why there cannot be a hierarchy of levels of consciousness associated with different, if you like, forms of embodiment, but also…

[01:06:56] If I can ask a question, because you are using the term, what is, mind, time related to the mind, right?

[01:07:05] Yes, yes.

[01:07:06] What is the… what is the word?

[01:07:08] What is the word?

[01:07:10] I am saying, the time… we experience time only because of our relationship with our body, not with our mind.

[01:07:19] In our mind, we can make one hour into ten hours, ten hours into one hour, we can.

[01:07:23] Because on a certain given day, if you are very joyful, the day passes like ten minutes.

[01:07:28] If you are depressed, the day passes like a eon. So, this is a mental thing.

[01:07:32] Mind, how we see mind is… there is something called as sat-chit-ananda.

[01:07:40] You have heard that, right? Have you? Sat-chit-ananda.

[01:07:44] No, I don't know the term.

[01:07:46] Okay. Sat means… Sat means truth or reality.

[01:07:50] Chit means… we are referring to chit as mind. Ananda means blissfulness.

[01:07:58] So, sat is reality which… which is there. But we can only look at the reality through the lie of our mind.

[01:08:08] Sat is half there, half not there. It's a half a reality. It's… part of it is true, part of it is not true.

[01:08:18] Chit is a complete lie. You can make anything out of it. You can look at this and see a dinosaur there genuinely.

[01:08:27] People do that.

[01:08:28] So, see a…

[01:08:29] You can see a dinosaur or an elephant standing there right now, though it is not there.

[01:08:33] Yeah. You can see an elephant standing there, though it is not there.

[01:08:37] You can look at this person and think, oh, she's evil. You can look at that person and think, oh, she's beautiful.

[01:08:43] You can look at that person and think something else. This is all lies made up in our mind.

[01:08:49] We can make up whatever we want. This is the beautiful thing about our mind. We can even make an absolute lie into reality. A total lie.

[01:09:00] Something that never existed, we can make it into a reality of our own. This is a phenomena that we have a kaleidoscope.

[01:09:08] We can make whatever. With little information, we can make so many things out of it. But that's not an instrument to explore.

[01:09:15] Kaleidoscope you can enjoy, but you cannot make that into an instrument of exploration. Body is more reliable. Body never lies to you. Hello?

[01:09:27] But there are different levels of body. I mean… Yes. Yes.

[01:09:32] Physical body, mental body, I mean… Yes. I'm right now saying the physical body never lies. It's telling you the truth, isn't it?

[01:09:41] You… You want us to stop? Mental body, physical body, I'm asking. So I'm saying when you get hungry, you get hungry.

[01:09:52] This… But mind can tell you, no, you're not hungry. Mind can tell you, when you don't need food, mind can tell you, you need to eat.

[01:10:00] But body tells you truth about everything. When it's cold, it's cold. When it's hot, it's hot. Everything is the way it is.

[01:10:07] But mind can make it whichever way you want. What is pleasant for one person is unpleasant for somebody.

[01:10:13] What is unpleasant is pleasant because mind makes up all these things. This is… The mind as we see it right now,

[01:10:20] we're just essentially talking about one aspect which is the intellect, which is what today in modern societies we have strived to develop.

[01:10:28] Because it produces results for us. In daily life, it improves our life in so many ways. What does improvement in life mean?

[01:10:37] Essentially, it means we get to handle our survival process more and more efficiently. That's all improvement is.

[01:10:43] This is why though compared to how… let's say how our grandparents lived and how we are living today,

[01:10:51] probably every one of us have ten to twenty times… twenty times more than what they had.

[01:10:56] We are not any more joyful or any more liberated than them. Though people claim. It is not.

[01:11:02] When you look at the people on the street, their faces, they are driving their dream cars.

[01:11:07] When you look at their faces, you know they are no better. People who walked or bicycled were also like that in the past.

[01:11:14] I am not saying we are more miserable. But we cannot claim because of these comforts, we have become more joyful.

[01:11:20] We have become more comfortable, more convenient life, more possibilities in the physical world, all that accepted.

[01:11:27] But this doesn't change the experience because it's the mind which can create whatever you want.

[01:11:33] Some people who manage their mind well, they see a good picture on their kaleidoscope.

[01:11:38] Some people who don't know how to manage that, they see a bad picture all the time.

[01:11:42] But that's got nothing to do with the reality. So when we are using an instrument like this to explore

[01:11:48] the fundamental reality of our existence, it will give us a bad picture. Telescope is a good thing. Kaleidoscope, no.

[01:11:56] So, that's… Can I ask you a question? Because you are talking about you see the dinosaur or the elephants.

[01:12:03] I didn't, I'm just…

[01:12:07] Would you regard our theories of… for physics, our theories of the world as being like the dinosaurs?

[01:12:16] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. See the theories of the world, I'm not saying they're all wrong.

[01:12:24] I… That's why I said they're pointing in the right direction. But even if you point in the right direction, let's say right now our vision,

[01:12:33] like a… some other like a fly or a grasshopper or a mosquito is only ten feet. Let's say both of us can see only ten feet.

[01:12:41] We can think, okay, if these two rows of people are sitting there, maybe twenty rows are there. Maybe there are more people.

[01:12:48] And we start looking. But still our eyesight improves. We're not going to see them.

[01:13:02] So, it's extremely important now. I… In my perception, science has never pointed in the right direction.

[01:13:09] In the last twenty-five, thirty years, they're beginning to point in the right direction.

[01:13:14] When they're pointing in the right direction, developing instruments to see further is very vital now for emancipation of humanity from being stuck in their own cycles.

[01:13:27] But you see, when you're talking about eyes, there is the… there are the physical eyes.

[01:13:34] But what interests me is that, for example, if one has an out-of-the-body experience, one floats around…

[01:13:41] Who is that?

[01:13:42] …but one's not… one's not actually seeing anything through one's physical eyes.

[01:13:47] So, it's as though there… there's a different level of embodiment, a different level of eye, a different sort of light with which one is exploring the world.

[01:13:57] So, are you… are you making this remark just in the context of physical…

[01:14:02] No. In… in every context, I'm saying.

[01:14:04] Suppose… suppose it's true that somebody slipped out of their body and floated around.

[01:14:09] I can show you some examples which are stark, unbelievably stark, which will be shocking for most people.

[01:14:17] Leaving that… let's say somebody here slipped out… she's a good candidate .

[01:14:23] She slipped out of her body and went around.

[01:14:27] But to see physical light, you need these eyes.

[01:14:32] You can't… I can't see physical light with my hands.

[01:14:35] You need these two eyes to see physical light.

[01:14:39] Because this whole problem of light…

[01:14:44] This is… this has come because what is metaphorical is being taken literally by a whole lot of people.

[01:14:51] I think it's Patanjali who made the mistake, maybe even before him somebody must have,

[01:14:57] where he said, if you bring yourself, distance yourself from your psychological and physiological process,

[01:15:06] a new light will arise within you.

[01:15:10] When he says light, he is not talking about this physical light which is traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

[01:15:19] He is talking about a new clarity has come.

[01:15:22] You see things totally differently because things are crystal clear to you.

[01:15:26] But to see this light, you need these two.

[01:15:30] Without these two, you don't see this light.

[01:15:33] Right.

[01:15:34] But… but this lady, she is…

[01:15:37] Not this one, that one, that one.

[01:15:39] Sorry, I got the wrong name.

[01:15:40] Yeah.

[01:15:45] Is it true to say, she is using a different source of eyes and a different source of light?

[01:15:51] We cannot call it eyes.

[01:15:54] Because when somebody is beyond the body, they're not seeing a damn thing.

[01:16:02] But…

[01:16:02] Does… does not mean there is no experience.

[01:16:05] Experience is coming because of inclinations.

[01:16:10] Inherent inclinations, which we call as karmic vasanas.

[01:16:14] That means because you have a certain volume of information, in… even in your subtlest form,

[01:16:19] you have a certain volume of information.

[01:16:22] Information, if there is no intent, it clear… creates an inclination.

[01:16:27] Suppose you sit here, you have no intent as to what you should do right now.

[01:16:34] Now you go by your inclinations.

[01:16:37] Some people will pluck the flower like this, some people will drink something,

[01:16:41] some people will smoke something, some people will simply sit here and dream something.

[01:16:45] This is an inclination.

[01:16:47] If you don't have an intent, naturally your memory creates an inclination.

[01:16:52] We call this inclination as vasana.

[01:16:55] Vasana means… literally means smell.

[01:16:58] Why we're calling it vasana is because in the animal world, it is a smell which plays a big role.

[01:17:06] Even in human life, smell plays a massive role, but people are not noticing it simply because of their cerebral activity.

[01:17:13] A whole lot of research has gone into it now, various types of research.

[01:17:18] People are saying, for these scientists saying, okay, they are saying you might have chosen a husband or a wife or a partner in your life because of an unconscious sense of smell you have about that person.

[01:17:37] Smelly people, I'm sorry .

[01:17:39] So, can I ask you Sadhguru about what we would call psychic phenomena because I know in the discussion with Siv… think… think… think… think…

[01:17:57] Well, let's… let me separate these two things because you use these words together. Psychic experiences, mystical experiences and spiritual experiences. They're three different things.

[01:18:07] Yes, yes.

[01:18:08] I accept that they're different, but sometimes it's hard to distinguish. There's a grey area between them. I mean… for example…

[01:18:20] I'm interested in the phenomena of levitation, for example. And the famous case of Saint Teresa of Avila who would levitate.

[01:18:31] Now, that in itself would not be a mystical experience because a psychical researcher would say, oh, she's levitating, we must measure how high she goes and how far she moves.

[01:18:42] And… and so, I accept that is not a mystical phenomena itself. But… Saint Teresa herself was having a mystical experience.

[01:18:52] So, for her she was in ecstatic state. So, there it was a…

[01:18:56] Now, why is being ecstatic mystical? Why… why is being ecstatic mystical?

[01:19:01] Well, I… I had no experience of mystical experiences.

[01:19:04] Yeah. So, let me come to that. See, right now, recently some journalist is asking me,

[01:19:09] Sadhguru, if there's one achievement in your life, what is it? I said, tears.

[01:19:15] What do you mean by tears? I said, every day, millions of people, if they close their eyes, tears of ecstasy are washing their cheeks.

[01:19:23] This is the only achievement I have. Rest is all circus. Rest is circus only in the world.

[01:19:30] You have to do circus to get people attracted to that process. So, being ecstatic happens.

[01:19:38] If you stop creating unpleasantness within you, when I say unpleasantness, you sit here and think,

[01:19:45] Oh, what is she doing? She's writing down. What's she… will she get it right?

[01:19:48] I don't think she'll get it right . This is a genuine opinion .

[01:19:54] Does she understand what I'm talking? Is he okay? Is that this, this, this?

[01:19:58] I'm saying these thousand things are there. It's not even conscious. These things are multiplying into millions as you grow up.

[01:20:07] Now, all this muck which you think is your thought process and your emotions and your opinions,

[01:20:13] especially you're in a university full of opinions . Okay?

[01:20:20] With all these opinions, you can't see nothing clearly. To just keep down all the opinions that you have,

[01:20:30] it takes a lot of work. People are around me for twenty, thirty years, same people.

[01:20:37] I don't have a single opinion about them. Only when it comes to work, I have to do something with them.

[01:20:43] Then I have an opinion whether they can do this or not do this. But when I just look at them,

[01:20:49] I just look at them as they are now. I don't care how they were ten years ago.

[01:20:53] I don't care how they were yesterday. When I look at them now, I see them as they are,

[01:20:59] because this is very important for what I do. Otherwise, Oh, this one is possible.

[01:21:04] This is a enlightenment candidate. This is no good. That is a good one. This has good genetics.

[01:21:09] That has bad genetics. This is all rubbish. It's got nothing to do. All these things have got something to do with their bodies and minds.

[01:21:17] I have no business with their body or their mind for that matter. So they may think loving their guru is a great thing.

[01:21:25] I think nothing about it. Because love is a simple emotion. Even a dog can do it very well, better than you. Hello?

[01:21:33] We are making a big deal out of it and exporting it to heaven and saying God is love.

[01:21:39] This is because people have grown up bereft of love. I'll tell you a simple... Can I tell you a little situation?

[01:21:46] I was to speak in Tel Aviv. Unfortunately, there is a situation there a few years ago and I'm flying out of Atlanta.

[01:21:55] I'm to land there around 1130 in the morning and speak at 630 in the evening.

[01:22:00] But some delays in the flights and I end up landing there at six o'clock in the evening.

[01:22:05] In this forty years, I have not been late to a single event. So I don't want to... You know, it's a commitment that I have that I don't go late.

[01:22:14] So I quickly change in the airport and rushing to the event. And I'm famished because I'm flying an American airline.

[01:22:24] There's nothing edible. There's nothing edible on that plane.

[01:22:30] No, not even that. They have... They throw some dog pots at you. Whatever. Nothing edible for me.

[01:22:41] So these... Whatever these grawnuts, they give you only in the domestic. In the international, it's only dog pot in some bread and something, something.

[01:22:49] It's just... Not for me. So I'm super hungry. But you know, I have to be there on time, I rush.

[01:22:57] And then I find to my amazement, it never happens to me, I'm speaking at a fine restaurant. This is coherence .

[01:23:11] Then I walk in and people are already there, they're greeting me. One man comes up and says, Sholong.

[01:23:17] I ask him, what does it mean? He says, this is the highest way of greeting.

[01:23:23] I said, it's all right, that's your opinion, but what does it mean?

[01:23:27] He says, no, no, no, this is the highest way of greeting. I said, all right, what does the word mean?

[01:23:32] Then he says, it means peace. I said, why is peace the highest way of greeting?

[01:23:38] Unless you're born in Middle East. In South India, somebody comes up to me in the morning and says, peace .

[01:23:46] I'll say, what's wrong with you? So I'm saying, anything that you deprive yourself of, slowly rises to heaven.

[01:23:57] You've not seen peace in your life, peace becomes God. You've not seen love in your life, love becomes God.

[01:24:05] You've not seen blissfulness in your life, bliss becomes God. No, these are all simple human emotions.

[01:24:11] So if… what's her name? I'm sorry. The saint, whoever?

[01:24:17] Oh, Saint Teresa. Saint Teresa. If she walked around blissfully, I'm glad for her.

[01:24:24] Today, I can show you, if not millions, at least hundreds and thousands of people who are blissed out, at least for parts of the day.

[01:24:35] I'm blissed out all the time . So, for me, to simply close my eyes and come to tears is just two moments, I'll be there.

[01:24:48] There are many, many people like that here and everywhere. So, it's wonderful if that woman walked like that.

[01:24:54] It's a fantastic thing because that's how a human being should be. You shouldn't make a saint out of her.

[01:25:00] She is a wonderful human being and every human being should be that way.

[01:25:04] They must walk the streets like this. When they see the flowers in the tree, they must… tears must come.

[01:25:09] When they see the clouds, tears must come. When they see a child, tears must come.

[01:25:13] When they close their eyes, tears must come. Tears of love and ecstasy, not tears of misery and pain.

[01:25:21] So, right now, it becomes such a rarity in a given society. Now you suddenly think she's got God going in her.

[01:25:30] No, she doesn't need God. Human beings are capable of experiencing these things.

[01:25:35] I'm saying these are all experiences that human beings have. Almost every human being at some point, in a moment of love or joy or something, tears have come to them.

[01:25:46] It's just that it's not common. If she made it a part of her life, fantastic.

[01:25:51] But in eastern societies, there are any number of saints like that who always lived like that.

[01:25:57] I'm not trying to bring her down. All I'm saying is, I'm trying to…

[01:26:01] You're going to get down, you'll be from the levitation.

[01:26:04] Levitation, I am not talking about it. I'll leave that. Because that's a question of breathing in hydrogen .

[01:26:09] Not oxygen . I'm saying I don't want to bring her down. My work is to raise the humanity, not bring down somebody from the heaven.

[01:26:21] So, unfortunately, in those societies, because everybody else is in such a mess, if one human being rises, you think she fell from the top.

[01:26:32] No, she rose, wonderful for her . But I'm saying there's nothing mystical about that.

[01:26:44] I mean, that's a question. We can say that is… that is clearly a spiritual experience, let's say.

[01:26:49] Oh, spiritual is fine. I mean… Yes. No, because we are trying to make some… draw some distinctions between psychic, spiritual and mystical.

[01:26:57] So, her experience, we can put it clearly in the category of a spiritual experience.

[01:27:02] That is fine, because that… that's a question of semantics and…

[01:27:06] No, no, these are not semantics. These are clear distinctions in experience. See, when you look at it from outside intellectually, it amounts to semantics.

[01:27:15] In terms of experience, what happens in my body is physical, what happens in my mind is mental, what happens in my emotions is emotional,

[01:27:24] what happens in my spirit is spiritual, is distinctly there. Nobody can question that.

[01:27:29] Because somebody is questioning it from outside, because they can't see it.

[01:27:34] If somebody is shedding tears out of love, we can sit here and think, oh, maybe some pain.

[01:27:40] This is our conclusion. But they may be blissed out with love and tears may be coming out, possible.

[01:27:49] So, semantic issue comes because we are outside observers to human subjectivity. That'll never work.

[01:27:58] Whether she was having a spiritual or a mystical experience, you know, I… I know to your knowledge because I… I…

[01:28:07] I was saying she did not have a mystical experience because people observed that she is in tears of ecstasy.

[01:28:13] That is a spiritual experience. She might have had mystical experiences which she cannot show to people. How will she show?

[01:28:22] But… but the… the question I was… I was going to ask was, I was interested in the status of psychic phenomena,

[01:28:31] because why I am interested in psychical phenomena is because I see them as making a link between matter and spirituality,

[01:28:41] between science and spirituality, because…

[01:28:44] No, sir, can I… can I do this? Because this is there, you know, in between.

[01:28:48] Yes.

[01:28:49] They have broke it for some reason. They didn't want the tail and head to come together .

[01:28:54] Whoever made it. Anyway, see, psychic phenomena is extension of the mind.

[01:29:05] We can extend our body if you want. Right now we can do a simple experiment, sir. Shall we do?

[01:29:11] Please sit… little spine erect. What we will do is put our hands together like this,

[01:29:17] and we will vigorously rub these two hands together with eyes closed for let's say thirty to… thirty seconds, all right? Like this.

[01:29:40] Thirty seconds is a long time .

[01:29:44] Now keeping your eyes closed, just separate them by three to four inches.

[01:30:01] Something happening between two… your two hands. Something little bit.

[01:30:05] Yes.

[01:30:05] Whatever that is. Let's not try to define it, describe it. It's an extension of the body.

[01:30:10] You can extend the body like this. Right now you have heard of phantom legs and things, somebody loses a leg or a hand.

[01:30:19] Even though the physical leg is gone, still… they're still experiencing it because in extended body,

[01:30:25] as there is a physical body, there's an energetic body which can stay intact if the loss of body is very sudden like that.

[01:30:33] There are tantrics. We should not go here. I'm entering dangerous territory in a university. Why should I commit suicide like this? Let me leave the tantrics alone. Hmm?

[01:30:47] So, there are people who can leave their body here and go and do something and again come back. It's called parakhaya pravesh.

[01:30:56] That means you enter something else. This is extension of the body, which is psychic. Extension of the body and mind to do something is a psychic process.

[01:31:07] What you're talking about the saint… How is she referred to? I'm sorry. Saint… Saint Teresa.

[01:31:16] That is a spiritual experience, what we… people are seeing. Whether she's having a mystical experience or… or not, nobody will know.

[01:31:23] She might have, she might not have. But she's definitely… if she's all blitzed out, she's having a spiritual experience. I'm just trying to define that.

[01:31:37] But what… the point I'm making is that from the point of view of extending science, these phenomena are interesting because that…

[01:31:50] you can study these phenomena using the sort of techniques that a scientist would use.

[01:31:57] You know, you can test for telepathy in the laboratory, you can test for psychokinesis, whether you…

[01:32:03] See, because it's all psychic phenomena – telepathy, telekinesis, whatever other things that people are talking about,

[01:32:10] this is all psychic phenomena which I am personally not interested in because that will not in any way rise a human being beyond their limitations.

[01:32:19] It will only make them little more competent. It's like, if I… I'm using a bad example again,

[01:32:26] if I have to kill somebody, I must go there and do something to them. But if I have a gun from here, I can shoot them.

[01:32:33] This is psychic phenomena. From here, I can do things. I don't have to go there and do things.

[01:32:39] So, a gun is more efficient than a knife. In UK, it's still they use knives, that's why I'm saying .

[01:32:45] There are a few guns, but maybe…

[01:32:48] So, I'm saying psychic phenomena is like this, you're extending your psychological and physical forces to do certain things and come back.

[01:32:58] But this will only at the most give you a little advantage in the world. You will not rise anywhere.

[01:33:06] I accept that. But the reason I'm emphasizing this is because in the attempt to expand science…

[01:33:13] Yes. That's my interest.

[01:33:14] This is… and it's nothing to do with helping somebody become enlightened. But nevertheless, I'm saying it's helpful. It's of interest to me.

[01:33:24] Yes. Because that's how I can expand science to accommodate these phenomena. It's… if you like, it's part of the way of going towards it, unifying science and spirituality. So, even…

[01:33:38] No, you… I'm saying you don't have to accommodate this. Let's dismiss all the things that I'm saying.

[01:33:44] Right now, in my opinion, science is looking in the right direction. They have to extend their look.

[01:33:52] I'm asking, can you build a telescope which will see something which is not physical in nature? That's what you need to do.

[01:34:03] And… the answer is not with a physical…

[01:34:05] No, with mathematics, I'll come to that. So, we… because we're talking about time, which I see as the most basic entity from infinite to zero is manifestation of time.

[01:34:23] So, it's an infinite space because it's a mix of time and space. It's… it's always been like that.

[01:34:31] It's time is the fundamental firmament. Space is happening on top of it.

[01:34:35] Now, beyond this time, which we refer to as a cyclical process because time as we know it, as we experience it right now, exists only because of cyclical movement.

[01:34:50] Planet turns a day. Moon goes around a month. Planet goes around the sun a year. This is our experience of time.

[01:34:58] And similar cycles are happening in our own bodies and various phenomena in the world. But a time which is not cyclical, which is just a stillness, we call this Mahakala.

[01:35:11] That means the greater time. There is a particular deity enshrined in central India, which used to be the center of time for many millennia,

[01:35:24] before the British came to India and they shifted it to green, which mean time. This was the mean time in the world.

[01:35:33] Because the maritime travelers from Asia, because that's where it started, so it was all… this was considered the line of time.

[01:35:42] This is where the time started. So, there they established a particular deity which is called Mahakala.

[01:35:48] So, let me not go into those things. But essentially, things were done so that people can experience something beyond their limitations of their body.

[01:35:58] Because if you do not cross the limitations of your body, you will not cross the cycles of time in any way. Do what you want.

[01:36:08] As long as this body is there, you are within the manifestation of the cycle of time. So, right now, you are looking the right way.

[01:36:16] If you can only build a telescope somehow, or the telescope need not necessarily be a physical pipe.

[01:36:23] If even these… all these numbers can go there and read something or see something which is non-physical in nature, absolutely non-physical in nature, then science will see what is there.

[01:36:38] Otherwise, we are looking in the direction, but no ice.

[01:36:45] And so, the question is how can physics do that? I mean, for example, people are interested…

[01:36:52] I think we should drop the word physics, because I'm talking about crossing the physical.

[01:36:57] Well, I mean, even the word… when I talk about expanding physics to accommodate these phenomena, it is not clear that that is the right word,

[01:37:07] because most physicists will not want to call it physics. They will say it's philosophy or something. But… and so I'm quite happy…

[01:37:16] In fact, I tend to use another word. I tend to use the word hyperphysical.

[01:37:20] This is quite good science, systematic way of…

[01:37:23] Yeah, but you see within physics itself, there's the whole question of what is physics?

[01:37:29] Among physicists, it's a big issue now. What do we regard as physics? Because some of the ideas I was talking about yesterday, like M-theory and these higher dimensions,

[01:37:41] we still haven't got any instruments that actually detect these extra dimensions. So people will say… I mean, physicists will say…

[01:37:49] Some physicists will say, this isn't physics, this is just mathematics. Or it's even… it's just philosophy.

[01:37:56] Now, what is interesting to me is that what we mean by science has constantly evolved.

[01:38:04] So in the old days, you used to think that science was to do with experiments.

[01:38:10] But if you're an astronomer, you can't do… you can't do experiments with stars and galaxies.

[01:38:15] In some sense, the universe does the experiments for you, because you've got billions of stars and billions of galaxies.

[01:38:22] So people would say, well, you've only got one universe. So therefore, how can cosmology be a part of science?

[01:38:43] But now we accept it is part of… it is part of science, it is part of physics, because we understand the theory which explains the universe.

[01:38:52] But in… on what basis do we come to this conclusion there's only one universe?

[01:38:57] Well, exactly. Now that leads into the next… you've foreseen my next point, which is that now people talk about the multiverse.

[01:39:13] The multiverse is just in the mind, because we cannot see the other universes. And I get into a lot of… I've written a book about the multiverse, the universe or multiverse.

[01:39:21] And one gets into arguments with other physicists. They say, this isn't physics, because you can't see the other universe.

[01:39:29] And a crucial thing about science is, it has to be something you can see. You've got to get evidence.

[01:39:35] But there are lots of things in science and in physics in particular you can never see, but we still accept as physics.

[01:39:42] You can never see inside a black hole, but everyone… most physicists accept that's part of physics.

[01:39:49] You can never see a quark, which is the subatomic part which makes up neutrons and protons.

[01:39:55] But everybody agrees that this is part of physics. So in physics now we're used to the idea that there are things which we cannot see and directly get evidence for.

[01:40:06] But it's regarded as physics because it's part of this mathematical framework, because at least part of the theory can be tested.

[01:40:17] Now, so one of the counterargument you mentioned, the multiverse, even though you can't see these other universes,

[01:40:25] you can argue it's still part of physics because they're predicted by theories of physics, which can be tested indirectly.

[01:40:34] But what I'm saying is that there's a whole controversy going on even within physics about what physics is.

[01:40:42] And in some sense our paradigms of physics now are essentially just mental models.

[01:40:49] Because the concept of reality when you talk about higher dimensions of quantum theory,

[01:40:55] quantum theory has got obviously experimental tests, but these higher dimensions don't yet have experimental tests.

[01:41:04] And so really it is a creation of mind. If you say psychic in a sense it is psychic, it's a creation of mind.

[01:41:11] Because at the moment we don't have the eyes, if you like, which to actually perceive.

[01:41:19] See, going back to this Saint Teresa, suppose out of her blissfulness, she told all the…

[01:41:26] Where was she in which part of…

[01:41:27] She knew?

[01:41:28] You okay?

[01:41:28] She came from Europe.

[01:41:29] Europe.

[01:41:32] Suppose…

[01:41:33] Akila, it is a way.

[01:41:34] If she told the Europeans, make this world your home out of her.

[01:41:42] If she has tears of blissfulness, I'm sure she's feeling like that.

[01:41:47] And she said, make this world your home.

[01:41:50] Then the Europeans thought, then we should make our home so big it should cover the whole world, which they tried.

[01:41:59] Now that's a disaster. So, physics means studying the phenomena of the physical world.

[01:42:07] If it reaches the edge of physicality, we must leave there and come up with a new science, isn't it?

[01:42:16] Come up with a new…

[01:42:18] New science, whatever you want to call it, I'll leave that…

[01:42:20] …listening to you.

[01:42:22] That is the point I'm making, that you…

[01:42:24] You're changing your view of what science is to accommodate these things.

[01:42:29] And indeed, you're changing your view of what physics is to accommodate these things.

[01:42:34] And that is part of the challenge.

[01:42:36] And that is why the more conventional scientific community is reacting against that.

[01:42:41] I mean, some of them are reacting against things like higher evictions, which are relatively respectable,

[01:42:46] in the sense that famous scientists work on them.

[01:42:49] So, even more are they reacting against this idea that you can extend science to accommodate a multiverse and psychic experience or whatever.

[01:43:00] But I'm just saying that that is part of the… part of the process of linking science and spirituality

[01:43:07] is changing what you mean by the nature of science.

[01:43:12] But the nature of science has always changed historically.

[01:43:16] And… and if ever science and spirituality does merge in some sense,

[01:43:21] it will mean that scientists must become more spiritual.

[01:43:26] No, I wouldn't say that.

[01:43:27] Okay.

[01:43:27] What I would say is right now, this whole fallacy of science and spirituality,

[01:43:33] what is it that we call as science?

[01:43:35] If something is a systematic approach to know something,

[01:43:40] and if you see it also, it's the same way.

[01:43:42] If I see it also, it's the same way.

[01:43:44] And ten other people see it, it's still the same way.

[01:43:47] That means it's not just a purely subjective experience.

[01:43:50] Then we say it is science, right?

[01:43:53] Am I correct?

[01:43:55] That's the old version of science.

[01:43:57] All right.

[01:43:58] We'll go by the old version .

[01:44:01] Because both of us are in that state .

[01:44:05] So now, what we call as spirituality is also a system that if I elucidate,

[01:44:14] this is the way, if you do this, this and this, this will happen to you.

[01:44:19] If it, out of this hundred odd people, even if fifty people can experience it,

[01:44:25] in my opinion, it is science.

[01:44:30] Because I clearly walk out few steps and they take those steps and they come to such an experience.

[01:44:36] I should tell you this.

[01:44:38] Sometime ago, a very… a man who is super exposed to all kinds of spiritual stuff around the world,

[01:44:45] he said he's been with JK, I don't know if you've heard of JK, J. Krishnamurti.

[01:44:49] Yes.

[01:44:50] He was with JK for a long time till he passed away in Oj… Oh… Ojha… Ohai.

[01:44:55] And then he was with Rajanish, he was with Ma… what's her name?

[01:45:01] Anandamai Ma.

[01:45:03] And he was with some European teachers and he was with the Yuji Krishnamurti,

[01:45:07] who was another guy from Bangalore, all this.

[01:45:10] And then he came and stayed in our yoga center for two weeks.

[01:45:14] After two weeks, he said, can I meet Sadmaru?

[01:45:16] I did not know he was there.

[01:45:17] Then I said, okay.

[01:45:19] Then one afternoon I just met him.

[01:45:21] He said, Sadhguru, like this, I have been all these places.

[01:45:24] I said, so you're a failed candidate everywhere and you come here now.

[01:45:30] What do I do with you?

[01:45:31] He said, no, no, no, Sadhguru, I have to say this.

[01:45:33] I have not come here for anything.

[01:45:35] He was already like seventy-nine something when I met him.

[01:45:38] He said, no, I'm not looking for anything.

[01:45:41] I'm…

[01:45:42] Each one of them have contributed.

[01:45:43] I've read you and I've seen you and all that.

[01:45:46] I just wanted to see you.

[01:45:47] That's it.

[01:45:48] All I want to say is, I've been to all those places, experienced so many things.

[01:45:53] Each one of them enhanced my life in some way.

[01:45:56] But you are the only one who has a spiritual factory.

[01:46:00] I said, what do you mean?

[01:46:02] I said, every week I'm just seeing people come, ordinary people come there.

[01:46:06] When they're leaving after three and a half days, they're all bursting with joy and screaming

[01:46:11] and dancing around and going.

[01:46:12] One batch after another, one batch after another, they're coming and going the same way.

[01:46:16] This is a spiritual factory.

[01:46:18] Then I thought this is a great idea because a factory means turning things out more efficiently

[01:46:23] than handmade stuff.

[01:46:26] I… you see, I called out people and I know they won't go with that.

[01:46:30] I said, we should call this Isha spiritual factory because the efficiency,

[01:46:36] with which you are functioning, it is a spiritual factory.

[01:46:40] We have a rollout.

[01:46:43] Whoever comes this way when they come out, at least reasonably they'll come out that way.

[01:46:47] All right?

[01:46:49] So, when we are able to turn out the same thing or bring a whole lot of people to similar

[01:46:55] or if not same, similar experiences repeatedly, again and again and again, not in a few years,

[01:47:02] not in two hundred years like science, for thousands of years we are able to do that.

[01:47:07] Why is that not science?

[01:47:11] I'm saying if… if this is… this is not infinity, this is supposed to be and.

[01:47:18] And…

[01:47:18] You should remove and.

[01:47:20] Science and science.

[01:47:23] If you turn it up through ninety degrees, it… it looks like and.

[01:47:29] But you see, the… one of the interesting points was that science is normally assumed to be

[01:47:38] taking the third-person perspective of the world.

[01:47:41] When you talked about how…

[01:47:43] No, this… this is why I told this example.

[01:47:46] This guy was taking a third-person view and he saw this is a spiritual factory.

[01:47:52] People are rolling out in the same level of experience .

[01:47:56] But… but the point is experience… when you're talking about a science of mind, you're talking about experience, not experiment.

[01:48:06] I think this… you're saying the same thing.

[01:48:08] No, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:48:09] See, I mean, don't translate an experience just to the mind.

[01:48:12] Today, Bala is trying to study that experience chemically, all right?

[01:48:17] The blood chemistry and whatever other things.

[01:48:19] I don't want to get into that because I don't care how long is your telemetter.

[01:48:25] I… but all those things matter to today's science, it's fine.

[01:48:29] Now they are saying the endocannabinoids are up by whatever percentage.

[01:48:33] It is much more than what happens in sexual orgasm just sitting here.

[01:48:38] Why is this not science?

[01:48:40] It's measurable.

[01:48:43] I'm… I'm agreeing.

[01:48:44] I'm saying that you should have a science of experience.

[01:48:47] So, I think I'll agree with you on that.

[01:48:50] No, experience is not scientific.

[01:48:52] Experience is very subjective human.

[01:48:54] But you can measure it not at the level of experience, at the level of what's happening in the body, you're able to measure it.

[01:49:02] What's happening in your chemistry, you can measure it.

[01:49:05] Because all human experience has a chemical basis to it.

[01:49:10] But that's reducing everything to materialistic, so…

[01:49:14] Ah, no, no.

[01:49:15] See, right now, only because both of us have a body here, we are able to house a mind on this.

[01:49:22] Hello?

[01:49:23] Correct?

[01:49:24] Yeah.

[01:49:24] We're housing a mind on this.

[01:49:26] Because we have a mind on this, we are housing ideas on it.

[01:49:29] Because we have a mind like this, we are housing mathematics on it.

[01:49:33] You can't house all this stuff if you didn't have a body.

[01:49:37] So, there's nothing wrong with the body.

[01:49:38] Body is the foundation.

[01:49:40] Without this, what can we do?

[01:49:44] I can ask you a very specific question, Sadhguru.

[01:49:48] I'm fascinated in the question of whether consciousness, because consciousness was the theme of this wonderful meeting.

[01:49:56] I'm interested in the question of whether consciousness is actually generated by the brain, or whether consciousness is actually merely filtered through the brain.

[01:50:08] In other words, whether consciousness is a little c, is just a manifestation of consciousness, a big c.

[01:50:15] And I'm interested to know where you stand on that, because you're obviously emphasizing the fact that our experience of the world is related to what happens in the body.

[01:50:26] But that doesn't prove that the consciousness is generated by the body. It merely says the consciousness is housed in the body.

[01:50:34] So, how do you stand on that?

[01:50:36] Let me put this like this.

[01:50:38] We were talking about kala.

[01:50:40] We're talking about time and space as kala.

[01:50:43] We're talking about mahakala, which is time but not cyclical in nature.

[01:50:49] Let's say that is consciousness.

[01:50:52] That is a stillness, which is all-pervading and which is powerful.

[01:50:58] Today, maybe they're calling it dark energy, whatever it is. I don't know how they see that.

[01:51:03] I don't know if there's any scientific way of sensing dark energy.

[01:51:07] I have no idea about that, so let me not comment.

[01:51:10] But calling it dark, we agree, because we call this also dark, because we're calling it kala.

[01:51:15] Kala means also darkness, because space is dark.

[01:51:20] Light is just a small happening.

[01:51:21] When something burns, it emanates light.

[01:51:24] And you can't see light, you can only see its reflection.

[01:51:28] See, right now there is light passing here, you can't see it.

[01:51:32] Only if it's… my hand stops it, then you can see it.

[01:51:35] Otherwise, you can't see it.

[01:51:36] So, we are not… in exploration, we are not concerned about light.

[01:51:40] That's why first thing we do is close our eyes.

[01:51:42] Because light is a huge deception.

[01:51:45] Light is giving your wrong perspective of everything.

[01:51:49] So, the moment you depend on light, you become physical.

[01:51:52] You become only physical with the opaque stuff.

[01:51:56] I'm saying you can see the hand, you can't even see the air that you breathe.

[01:52:01] Because you can't see anything vital here, if you depend on light.

[01:52:06] So, first thing is to close our eyes, because the senses are deceiving you.

[01:52:12] When we said Maya, we did not say…

[01:52:15] Because today philosophers are going about saying nothing exists, it is only there because you are looking at it.

[01:52:21] Recently some boy, young boy asked me a question.

[01:52:24] I think that video is out somewhere today.

[01:52:26] This boy is asking, because,

[01:52:27] Rajguru, is universe there before me or is it just my projection?

[01:52:32] I said, you are a young man.

[01:52:34] Before you came, I was here and the universe was there .

[01:52:40] All right?

[01:52:41] Don't imagine such things.

[01:52:43] You came and projected the universe for me.

[01:52:45] All right?

[01:52:46] I'm saying this is simplistic understanding of whatever profound sciences somebody has exp… experience.

[01:52:53] It's all because of those three scientists got the Nobel Prize.

[01:52:55] Everybody thinks that now they know, universe does not exist.

[01:52:59] If universe does not exist, what the hell are you doing here?

[01:53:03] It is… it is just that it doesn't exist the way you see it.

[01:53:08] This is Maya.

[01:53:09] Maya means illusion.

[01:53:10] Illusion means that not necessarily that it does not exist.

[01:53:15] It is not the way you think it is.

[01:53:18] It's not the way you are perceiving it for the sake of your survival.

[01:53:21] It is a completely different phenomenon.

[01:53:24] But you see it this way because this is how you can survive.

[01:53:28] Otherwise, you cannot survive, having said that.

[01:53:31] So, let us assume this non-cyclical time which is the basis of space is consciousness.

[01:53:43] Well, when we are children all of us would have blown a soap bubble.

[01:53:47] What are you doing or you are looking through the telescope, sir?

[01:53:51] It depends on the age, but I mean…

[01:53:54] I accept ourselves.

[01:53:57] Yeah, so bubbles.

[01:53:58] Suppose you are… you blew…

[01:54:02] You blew this big bubble.

[01:54:04] I blew that big bubble.

[01:54:06] Now I say, see, that's my bubble.

[01:54:08] The big bubble is my bubble.

[01:54:09] This is your bubble.

[01:54:10] This is my bubble.

[01:54:12] It went poop.

[01:54:14] Then I don't say this is my air, this is your air.

[01:54:18] It's the same air, both of us captured.

[01:54:20] You captured this much, I captured that much.

[01:54:22] So, right now the whole yogic system is focused on how much can you capture.

[01:54:28] If you capture more of that that you are calling as consciousness,

[01:54:31] which is a memoryless, intentless intelligence,

[01:54:36] with which if you give it a little memory, it finds expression as many, many forms.

[01:54:41] So, you and me are one type of forms that… which found expression because we gathered memory.

[01:54:47] This memory we call as karma.

[01:54:50] As long as your karma is there, you can blow a bubble because you got soap.

[01:54:55] Even though there is air, pfft, pfft, you can't blow a bubble.

[01:54:58] You need soap.

[01:55:00] So, soap is this karmic information.

[01:55:02] Without information, you can't blow the bubble.

[01:55:05] Now, if you have… if your soap is very thick, you can't blow a big bubble.

[01:55:10] It'll be small but heavy.

[01:55:11] It doesn't fly.

[01:55:12] It just goes down and bursts on the… you know?

[01:55:15] You've seen both.

[01:55:16] You blow a lot of soap, it just gets heavy, goes and lands there.

[01:55:20] You blow it really nicely, light and slowly, it becomes this big.

[01:55:25] Now, it floats away because its wall is so thin.

[01:55:29] So, if you become like this, this whatever this sister… what is this? Teresa?

[01:55:35] Saint… Saint Teresa, I'm so sorry.

[01:55:37] Saint Teresa blew a bubble which is floating away.

[01:55:42] Others see and think, oh, she descended from the heaven.

[01:55:45] No, she's floating because she's blown a big bubble of herself.

[01:55:50] Now, the bigger the bubble, the easier to burst it.

[01:55:55] And that is called Nirvana Mukti Moksha because at some point we want to burst it.

[01:56:01] Why would I want to burst my own life bubble?

[01:56:03] That is because you read the memory that is written in this and you saw it through and through.

[01:56:11] Because you just have amnesia of even… you don't even remember how you were in your mother's womb, do you?

[01:56:19] No, you don't remember.

[01:56:21] You only remember a few things here and there and you pick up a few pleasant things and say,

[01:56:26] my life is fantastic.

[01:56:29] If you actually look at it, whole of your life is generally grind.

[01:56:33] Like he said, you have to go shopping, you have to cook, you have to wash.

[01:56:36] It's a grind, all right?

[01:56:37] Here and there, moments of joy, excitement, this and that happened.

[01:56:42] You are just trying to remember that and paint a beautiful picture of your life.

[01:56:47] It's wonderful.

[01:56:48] Psychologically, it's a good thing to do.

[01:56:49] But it's not a way to explore the reality of one's existence.

[01:56:55] See, you wanting to live a good life is one thing.

[01:56:58] You want to know the basis of the life itself is another thing.

[01:57:01] This aspiration may not be there in everybody and it's perfectly fine.

[01:57:06] Somebody just wants to live a good life, all they want is pleasant chemistry.

[01:57:09] We can teach them a simple way how you… to make your chemistry pleasant.

[01:57:14] Most people would be satisfied with that because generally that's all.

[01:57:19] They go to temples, mosques, church, wherever… what is their prayer?

[01:57:22] What is the prayer on the planet?

[01:57:23] Dear God, give me this, give me that, save me, protect me, make me healthy.

[01:57:27] Give me little more than my neighbor.

[01:57:32] Yes, what else?

[01:57:34] This is all the prayer on the planet is.

[01:57:37] So, otherwise, no, no, no, not like that, I go there to thank.

[01:57:40] Thank what?

[01:57:41] For what you got last time so that he doesn't forget you next Christmas.

[01:57:46] This happened.

[01:57:47] Let me tell you a little joke, so it's getting serious.

[01:57:52] Two boys, brothers went to grandmother's place for Christmas.

[01:58:00] So, they are required to pray before they go to bed.

[01:58:03] The elder boy sat down, kneeled down rather, and started praying.

[01:58:07] He wanted a puppy for the Christmas.

[01:58:10] So, he's praying, dear Lord, let me have a puppy and what breed and everything.

[01:58:16] The younger boy, who is wiser, screamed loudly, dear Lord, I need a bicycle!

[01:58:22] Dear Lord, I need a bicycle!

[01:58:24] So, this older boy says, what nonsense, why are you screaming, God can hear?

[01:58:29] He said, I don't care whether God hears or not, I want grandma to hear .

[01:58:43] Can I ask you another question which is… let's follow up.

[01:58:48] See, if it is not asking too much, if I give you a very simple… generally in science you call it a theory, I call it my experience.

[01:58:58] If I give you a simple line, can you build mathematics for it? Because that could be the telescope.

[01:59:07] Well, my question was going to be this. We started off talking about the cycles of the universe.

[01:59:16] And there was something which intrigued me. In one of your films or one of the interviews, I've heard you talking about the fact that there were a certain number of cycles.

[01:59:29] 84.

[01:59:30] 84, exactly. And so I was intrigued about this, not 42 which is the answer to everything in wisdom, but 84…

[01:59:38] What is 42? I didn't know.

[01:59:40] Which is twice, 84 or twice 42.

[01:59:42] Oh, okay, okay.

[01:59:43] But I'm fascinated, where does the figure 84 come from and why 84?

[01:59:51] Well, you already heard that video, so I will leave that part.

[01:59:55] No, they did and I'm…

[01:59:56] Okay .

[02:00:00] See, there is a continuous talk about Big Bang.

[02:00:04] I was talking to one of the scientists who's written a book on endless universe.

[02:00:11] Yes, Endless Universe, that's the title of the book.

[02:00:13] Yes.

[02:00:15] So, I met him in Daos and I was… he was setting up a computer simulation of how it could have been.

[02:00:24] When I looked at that computer simulation, this is a form every day we work with.

[02:00:29] We call this Linga.

[02:00:31] The word Linga comes from the word Lina.

[02:00:35] Lina means the form.

[02:00:38] We call it the form.

[02:00:40] The…

[02:00:41] Form, form.

[02:00:41] Form.

[02:00:42] What do you say?

[02:00:44] Form.

[02:00:46] Form.

[02:00:46] Form.

[02:00:48] Form.

[02:00:50] F.

[02:00:51] My English accent.

[02:00:56] Okay.

[02:00:57] The form.

[02:01:03] Yeah .

[02:01:04] So, we call it the…

[02:01:12] Why it's called the form is because it was the first form.

[02:01:17] So, when he breathed out and when energy played upon his body and little particles of creation,

[02:01:27] it started forming cycles and creating, making Mahakala a great time into a simple time process of atomic time, then he rolled.

[02:01:39] When he rolled, it rose like that.

[02:01:43] That form I am seeing on his computer.

[02:01:47] This is a form we always work… you know, people worship and work with in so many ways.

[02:01:52] I see this guy had it on his computer.

[02:01:55] I said, how did you get this?

[02:01:56] He said, he's been working on simulating the big bang.

[02:02:00] Then I asked him a simple question.

[02:02:03] Is it possible there could have been many bangs?

[02:02:08] He…

[02:02:09] Did like that and then he said, possible.

[02:02:13] Then I said, if there are many bangs…

[02:02:15] See, if you have an automobile, if you take off the manifold, you will see the engine will go bang, bang, bang, bang.

[02:02:24] If you throttle up, it'll roar.

[02:02:26] So, I said, if there were a series of bangs, could it have been a roar?

[02:02:33] He said, why not?

[02:02:34] Possibly.

[02:02:36] I said, we've always been saying it's a roar.

[02:02:38] So, we called the first form as the rudra.

[02:02:42] Rudra means the one who roars.

[02:02:45] He roared.

[02:02:46] Like this, then we evolved many forms to describe this.

[02:02:50] This was Kala, this was Mahakala, this was Kala, this was Rudra.

[02:02:55] There's a first form and then the many forms, how they came, there are various aspects to it.

[02:03:03] These things are not today.

[02:03:05] These things have been spoken millennia ago.

[02:03:09] How do they know all this?

[02:03:10] The simple thing is like this.

[02:03:12] If you look into this piece of creation, the whole creation is present in a footprint form.

[02:03:21] By looking at my footprint…

[02:03:23] Suppose I walk through the garden.

[02:03:24] By looking at my footprint, you can measure my weight, my height, my gait.

[02:03:32] You can even guess how smart am I.

[02:03:36] Depending on how I navigate through spaces, you can see how smart you are.

[02:03:41] In this country, everybody is, you know, elogizing this all the time.

[02:03:46] The native Americans could read the footprint and they could read the tracks.

[02:03:51] How many people?

[02:03:52] What is happening?

[02:03:53] This, that, that… lot of detail into it.

[02:03:55] Because the footprint leaves a whole lot of things.

[02:03:59] So, in many ways, various aspects of this creation, you will never be able to see this through physical approach or even mental approach,

[02:04:13] because mind we see it as a physical projection.

[02:04:15] Mind is a little subtler projection of the… of the body.

[02:04:19] So, these things cannot be seen, but the footprint can be seen.

[02:04:25] With the footprint, you can know most of the things.

[02:04:28] Only thing you cannot know is, what is my nature, you cannot know.

[02:04:33] But you can figure out… if I walk through, let's say, a difficult terrain, you can easily figure out how smart I am.

[02:04:42] You can figure out what is my thinking.

[02:04:45] People do this.

[02:04:46] Looking at the animal footprints, I do this myself.

[02:04:50] Looking at the footprint, I know where it is going.

[02:04:52] Is it hungry?

[02:04:53] Is it not hungry?

[02:04:54] Is it hunting?

[02:04:55] Is it just walking around?

[02:04:56] I…

[02:04:57] I've survived in the jungles because I see these things very clearly.

[02:05:01] So, looking at the footprint of creation, if you have lot of these numbers, which…

[02:05:06] I don't have no numbers in my head.

[02:05:08] Only number I have is this one.

[02:05:12] Or sometimes it becomes like this.

[02:05:14] I don't have any other numbers.

[02:05:16] Because of that, I don't bother about that.

[02:05:19] But if you have all these numbers, if I show you the footprint, can you build a mathematical ladder to that?

[02:05:25] If you build that, we can say scientists are seeing something that their eyes or their telescopes cannot see.

[02:05:35] Yes.

[02:05:35] But can I ask a follow-up question?

[02:05:38] Because one of the reasons cosmologists like myself like to invoke psychic universes is because of the apparently miraculous fine-tunings of the physical constants which are required for life to arise.

[02:05:53] This is what's called the anthropic principle.

[02:05:57] That there are unexplained coincidences between the constants of physics which are required for observes to arise in the universe.

[02:06:06] And one of the explanations of this is that you have many cycles of the universe, expansion and re-collapse, and every time you have a balance, you change the constants.

[02:06:16] And so the idea is that many of these cycles are just empty, no mind, no consciousness.

[02:06:23] And every now and then the constants have the right values for consciousness to arise.

[02:06:29] And so one reason you invoke cycles of the universe is that that means occasionally you are going to be in a universe, well you have to be in one of the cycles which is suitable for life.

[02:06:42] So this is one example of the multiverse.

[02:06:45] Does that tie in at all with the…

[02:06:47] Yes, very much.

[02:07:11] …that they are having before?

[02:07:13] Competence comes only when you care for something.

[02:07:15] Otherwise, you don't acquire those competences.

[02:07:18] So these 84, out of these 84, many have dissolved.

[02:07:25] Their bare, vague footprint is there, but they have dissolved.

[02:07:29] But the footprint is there in this.

[02:07:32] Twenty-one of them have a little larger footprint.

[02:07:35] Out of these 21, ten are almost non-physical.

[02:07:40] Non-physical, let's say.

[02:07:42] The remaining 11 are somewhat mildly physical.

[02:07:47] But the last four are reasonably physical.

[02:07:53] So, we see this number 21 as an important process, whatever we want to do, we do it in 21 minutes, in 21 ways and all this,

[02:08:03] because these 21 still have a footprint.

[02:08:06] If you want to rise beyond your physicality, absolutely.

[02:08:11] You have to rise beyond all the 21.

[02:08:14] But you don't have to bother about those things, because if you rise above the physical nature, not just in terms of physical body,

[02:08:20] but even the information is physical.

[02:08:24] All information that you carry, which makes you you, whether dead or alive, it still makes you you, that one, we want to rise beyond that.

[02:08:33] So that imprint carries all this.

[02:08:36] And out of the 84, 21 are still manifest in different levels of, for lack of words, I'm saying transience.

[02:08:45] From almost non-existent.

[02:08:47] Others below 21, they're completely gone.

[02:08:50] But their footprint is still there.

[02:08:54] They don't have any influence or impact.

[02:08:56] Their qualities are not imprinted in us.

[02:08:58] But these 21 qualities are there in us.

[02:09:01] How many more will happen?

[02:09:05] 112 will happen.

[02:09:07] 112?

[02:09:08] 112.

[02:09:10] Each one of them may take whatever they… they've calculated is yojanas, have to… how long it'll take, that's not… my number game is not my game.

[02:09:18] So, 112 times it'll happen.

[02:09:21] After that, it will manifest in a way that it's non-physical and becomes a perpetual universe.

[02:09:27] A non-physical universe will manifest itself, that it doesn't need physical matter but exists.

[02:09:35] And even individual existence may happen, we don't know.

[02:09:39] It may happen or one massive happening may happen, but a proper manifestation of universe without physicality.

[02:09:48] When that happens, that is the final one.

[02:09:51] This is seen as a thing, but I know science will not ever go with that.

[02:09:56] So, let us leave those things.

[02:09:58] All I am saying is, this simple thing that I am talking about, if I give you the footprints as to how this has evolved,

[02:10:05] if you can create a mathematical backbone to it, I think it'll make sense to lots of people and you will be seeing further,

[02:10:12] not with physical eyes, but mathematically you will be seeing much further than where you are seeing right now.

[02:10:19] That's fascinating because that is not one of the standard modern cosmological theories, you see.

[02:10:23] So, but what you are saying is that you got these cycles which at some stage evolve beyond the straightforward physical.

[02:10:31] See, the beautiful thing is, they are clearly defining this.

[02:10:35] It is all… see, because the Indian cosmology is built and personified in a certain way.

[02:10:43] Most people, Indian origin people will know this.

[02:10:47] There is a coiled up snake upon which a god is lying down.

[02:10:52] That call… that snake is called Shesha.

[02:10:57] Shesha means when we are learning mathematics in Indian languages, the reminder… what do you call it?

[02:11:03] Shesha.

[02:11:04] Shesha.

[02:11:05] Remainder is called Shesha.

[02:11:06] Shesha.

[02:11:06] What is remaining is Shesha.

[02:11:08] Even in our common language, we use that.

[02:11:09] Shesha means something left over.

[02:11:12] So, this… this snake is the Shesha upon which once again creation begins.

[02:11:20] So, this Shesha left over, the leftovers are there from last twenty-one universes.

[02:11:28] But the imprint of the leftover is diminishing as you go backwards and increasing as you come forwards.

[02:11:35] But the last four are significant.

[02:11:39] And so, was consciousness in only some of these…

[02:11:43] No, no, no.

[02:11:44] All of them were conscious, fully manifest universes.

[02:11:47] But they ran out of time.

[02:11:49] That what was Kala became Mahakala, but it left footprints.

[02:11:56] In some footprints they're very strong, we can see exact nature of what they are.

[02:12:01] Some footprints are very weak that we can barely see that they are there.

[02:12:06] And is this evolution towards, after 112 cycles, a non-physical state, does that correspond to a sort of evolution of consciousness?

[02:12:21] In a way, it is like consciousness graduating, that without physical form it can manifest itself.

[02:12:33] That's a… that's a very positive note of maybe which…

[02:12:39] I know we've come to the end about two hours, but that's a…

[02:12:42] That's a really interesting thought, but especially that you made it mathematical.

[02:12:49] Thank you, sir. You came all the way. Thank you very much, sir. Fantastic.

[02:13:13] Anyway, thank you.

[02:13:13] Do you… do you physics hug or no?

[02:13:15] Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[02:13:18] The English one, sir.

[02:13:21] Thank you.

[02:13:26] Thank you so much, I've heard of… I've learnt a lot.

[02:13:30] About physics as well as about… about the future of the physical universe. Thank you.

[02:13:36] Thank you, sir.

[02:14:09] You're crossing your physical dimension.

[02:14:12] OK.

[02:14:13] I want to say that when I was invited by Bala to this meeting, at first I thought, oh, it's such a long way to go.

[02:14:24] You know, just to give a short talk and I'm not going to be very interested in any way what I'm going to say.

[02:14:29] But I have to say that having come here and attended this meeting, it really has been wonderful.

[02:14:36] I've… I've… I've enjoyed, of course, interacting with everybody.

[02:14:39] Everyone has been so kind and hospitable.

[02:14:43] And I've just really so enjoyed coming… coming to this meeting and talking to you all.

[02:14:50] And, of course, hearing other people because, to me, the other talks were more interesting than mine.

[02:14:54] And, of course, most of all, I've appreciated meeting…

[02:14:59] Thank you, Sadhguru.

[02:15:00] …so I've… obviously, I've never met before, though, of course, I've heard of you.

[02:15:08] And I hope… I hope we meet again and I hope one day maybe I can even visit in Bangalore.

[02:15:15] I want the mathematical structure.

[02:15:17] OK.

[02:15:18] I'll… I'll bring it with me.

[02:15:22] So, well, thank you… thank you to everybody.

[02:15:25] Thank you to the… obviously, the organizers of the meeting, but thank you, Sadhguru, so much for…

[02:15:30] Thank you very much.

[02:15:32] …and letting me share in this dialogue.

[02:15:35] It's a… it's absolutely fantastic for us to… because I've spoken to many, many people.

[02:15:41] I don't know if you've heard of Bob… Bob Bishop?

[02:15:47] Yeah, I heard…

[02:15:47] Henry Markeram.

[02:15:51] We have spent a lot of time and at that time it was progressing in one way, but it got derailed because of his illness and whatever.

[02:15:59] But I've spoken to many others, everybody is a closed door.

[02:16:02] It's fantastic to speak to an accomplished scientist who is absolutely open to every kind of crazy thing that I can say .

[02:16:11] Because what is crazy is whatever people don't understand is always crazy, unfortunately.

[02:16:18] So I constantly live in a world where nobody understands a damn thing of what I'm doing.

[02:16:25] So, thank you very much.

[02:16:26] A lot of the things I work on are crazy as well, even with the things I work on with the conventional physics, you know, black holes, time machines, wormholes and things like that.

[02:16:38] But there's nothing wrong with being crazy. Whatever the final truth is, it's got to be crazy and the question is whether it's crazy enough.

[02:16:46] And can I just say, thank you, that one thing… you said so many impressive things over the last few days.

[02:16:51] But one thing which really impressed me, which I didn't know about, was when you said in 40 years you've never once been late.

[02:17:02] I'm on time? You're on time. I myself, I am renowned for being late.

[02:17:10] That's why Bala is controlling you. I've even been called, I've been called the late Professor Carr.

[02:17:20] I tend to be late arriving and when I give talks I tend to be late ending and things.

[02:17:26] So, I have learnt from you, thank you for setting me that good example, I will try to emulate me for the next 40 years.

[02:17:37] Always arriving on time.

[02:17:39] Can I say one thing? Yes.

[02:17:41] So, to find you it was a group of physicists got together from all over U.S.

[02:17:48] Of course, Sephadev is our co-director, she's a physics person.

[02:17:52] Her husband and whole lot of people found you.

[02:17:55] What, did they use a microscope or a telescope?

[02:17:59] They said you are the right person to converse with Sephadev.

[02:18:03] Well, thank you.

[02:18:04] Thank you for that.