The future of education with Sumeet Mehta - LEAD

[00:00:00] Pops in a Pod, Pops in a Pod Welcome back to Pops in a Pod. I'm Peter Pops and I'm

[00:00:19] Nadir Pops. Now that we're talking again about an episode which I think we're both really

[00:00:25] excited about, but education and we've got a great guest who is doing a lot in the field of

[00:00:32] education and I think we were both equally excited to get him and kind of get his understanding

[00:00:38] and his perspective on education in India and how that's changed. And yeah, we found out

[00:00:43] a lot about his life so over to you another why don't you tell us who our guest is?

[00:00:49] So our guest for today is Sumit Mehta before I tell you guys who he is. I have the opportunity

[00:00:56] to write one of his first TVCs for his company which is Lead, back then it was called Lead School

[00:01:03] and it was a great great journey and I really loved what he wants to do with education. So

[00:01:10] Sumit is the co-founder and the CEO of Lead. So Lead is a leading education company in India

[00:01:17] which he set up considering how passionate he is about giving excellent education, accessibility

[00:01:25] and of course make it affordable for every child. He's been working for the last 20 years.

[00:01:33] He's been educated from IAM, Ahmedabad and prior to starting Lead, he worked with PNG

[00:01:41] and Zeeleur. So a great great set of experiences that Sumit comes with and he's going to talk to us

[00:01:50] about Lead, his passion for education and of course his parenting. Let's get straight into our chat

[00:01:58] with Sumit. Sumit thank you so much for accepting our invite it's so nice to have you on pops

[00:02:06] in a pod. We've been trying very hard to get you but of course you are a busy man you are doing

[00:02:11] such fantastic work with Lead but thank you for coming here as a professional, as somebody who pushes

[00:02:21] education out there in a very strong form but most importantly thank you for coming and joining us

[00:02:26] as a pair in Sumit. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to this conversation

[00:02:32] we have to start off with asking the most obvious question in Sumit and it's that as parents

[00:02:38] and I'm sure you'll always agree that quality education is always a priority for parents right I mean

[00:02:44] it's all across whether you see it in your classic Bollywood films or even if you see it in

[00:02:50] parents. I mean like everyone's the most common conversation I've noticed among parents is

[00:02:55] oh what's your kid doing in school? What's happening with kids activities and that doesn't stop right

[00:03:01] I think that Evan goes on further to when it's with college but take us back to like the early days

[00:03:07] of Lead right where was like the inception or the initial idea of for the entire company? Sure

[00:03:15] see I think my interest in education actually predates us becoming parents and it goes back

[00:03:22] to my parents because they were teachers so growing up I think I got a very first hand window into

[00:03:29] teaching and I also saw the impact that a teacher can make like I would go with my father to a bank

[00:03:35] or a market to shop somebody or the other would get up come and touch his feet and say sir I was your

[00:03:41] student Patchisal Pahal Abhisal Pahal you know and this is what I remember so I kind of saw that

[00:03:48] a teacher's life impact you know outlasts his classroom and I think it had subconsciously an

[00:03:54] indelible mark on me but then I went to MBA PNG all of that and when I went out of India

[00:04:01] I think the other thing which hit me was when you're out of your country you were able to see your

[00:04:05] country in relief so every time I would come back to India I would be like why have things not changed

[00:04:10] you know schools and my father was working with some schools so I would accompany him and I

[00:04:15] would be like you know this is the same thing that I went through it's been 15 years 20 years world

[00:04:21] has moved but India is still at the same place so I was to tell him as a Q and I think one day he said

[00:04:27] I would not have done it to be something like this so I think that was the I would say when

[00:04:34] when it really the rubber hit the road and I was like okay I think I should pursue this so I left

[00:04:40] PNG left Singapore move back to India to do something in education and we didn't have Zoya and

[00:04:46] till that time it was basically me and Spita who moved back interestingly the day when I made

[00:04:51] the decision three months later we realized that we were expecting Zoya so it kind of all came together

[00:04:57] we moved back to India in 2007 and we had Zoya in 2008 wow that's such a beautiful journey and I must

[00:05:04] add I can totally relate to what you were talking because my mum also taught primary school

[00:05:11] and this was in the Middle East right and we always talk about how teachers like have a certain

[00:05:16] respect in school I remember going out very similar to how you experienced with your father

[00:05:22] I'd got shopping with my mother and out of nowhere in the supermarket that be a child come in

[00:05:28] and just like very shyly wave and ask my mum like who's that child she's like oh and you know

[00:05:33] that pride also in your student that you take so like my mum was very proud and yeah over the years

[00:05:40] I've also seen that so I completely I think that's one of those things that leaves a mark on you

[00:05:45] very subconsciously in the moment you don't realize it but like over a period of time that

[00:05:50] takes a forefront right yeah yeah that's so true and I think they say that the apple doesn't fall

[00:05:58] far from the tree I've seen it in my life I mean when I went for engineering and MBA and then PNG

[00:06:04] I don't think anybody would have predicted that I would move back to education but that's how it

[00:06:09] turned out to be you know Peter's being extremely modest over here Peter has also been teaching for

[00:06:14] a while I have been teaching for a very long time so we also are now in the thick of education

[00:06:20] we obviously don't teach primary kids we teach masters and master programs in various other

[00:06:26] institutes and colleges and what we've noticed is that there is a shift right there is a shift

[00:06:32] you can see that the kids have become smarter they are more oriented towards this whole technological

[00:06:39] standpoint but today lead is over 11 years old you must have definitely come across some very

[00:06:46] interesting insights right from an indication Indian education standpoint especially since you were

[00:06:52] a student share with us what are some of those interesting insights findings and how did you sort

[00:06:57] of put all of that together for lead I have seen it in two paths I mean I see students actually

[00:07:05] moving far ahead of where schools and teachers are unfortunately so if I look at schools and

[00:07:12] teachers I unfortunately see that the more things change the more they remain the same in fact

[00:07:18] if you walk into a school today I mean especially if you go outside of Bombay you would see that

[00:07:25] the classroom has not changed since the time you went to school or I went to school and that's

[00:07:29] unfortunate because if I go to Singapore or US or any other developed country most schools have

[00:07:36] actually moved away from the book Blackboard paradigm India somehow you know has not been able to

[00:07:42] move there so unfortunately schools I think are still stuck in some time cocoon while students

[00:07:50] when I interact with these students their aspirations their awareness their comfort with technology

[00:07:56] that has gone and I think that's partly the reason why you see a sense of students being

[00:08:04] impatient in classrooms because they feel that these are these are anachronistic structures

[00:08:12] that they're forced into what they want from their life is not being given to them in the classrooms

[00:08:17] then they seek it outside and I think that's the push and pull that we are going through in India at

[00:08:24] this point my sense is over the next 5-10 years partly because of the efforts people like us are

[00:08:30] putting it will shift but it hasn't actually shifted at the velocity that we would have wanted

[00:08:36] as a nation I mean that's really what what I'm seeing from schools and teachers and students

[00:08:42] and it's a very interesting point that you bring up submit because like I can talk about my

[00:08:48] son school where you know I remember my childhood experience where we had 60 students and we had

[00:08:55] only 30 computers in the entire school so we had literally access to a computer and it was you

[00:09:01] know literally one of those and I'm sure everyone who's around our age can be vividly remember this

[00:09:08] it was those AC rooms the few AC rooms in our school the computers you had to be like oh my god

[00:09:14] I'm getting to see a computer right it was like this huge deal and when I'm contrasting it now

[00:09:20] and oh my god you've just taken me back like 25 years

[00:09:29] you're removing your shoes yes and if you had went so close it's a range of to remove your socks also

[00:09:36] and then enter oh god all of that all of that yeah but fast forward all these years now my son has

[00:09:43] access to computers on his own at home my wife and I both have computers so he leaves that but in

[00:09:52] school also I mean like he was the other day showing me how to use certain things on Google Chrome

[00:09:57] and I looked at him and I said wait this is the first year he has access like in school to a computer

[00:10:02] but the way he's logging in and all of that and he's so confident with it I feel like that's where

[00:10:09] at this point schools and just generally I assess parents also need to keep up right because

[00:10:14] they're appetite to pick up and move forward with technology and just adapt it so easily

[00:10:21] really is one of those things I mean like think about it right my son is six he's learning computers

[00:10:26] at the same time he's learning ABC and languages right which is totally unprecedented when you

[00:10:33] think about it yeah I think there are two things happening here one is that each of us has experienced

[00:10:40] a change in our economic situation when I was growing up and I'm assuming for you also

[00:10:46] a lower medical class of medicalist families right so we went to schools which were more traditional

[00:10:51] but through our education journey we have shifted orbit so the access that we are able to provide

[00:10:57] to our children is very different from what our parents were able to provide I'm sure when we were

[00:11:03] growing up there were kids in richer families who had access to stuff which was out of reach for

[00:11:09] us it might not be technology it might would have been something else so one thing that has happened

[00:11:14] is that the middle class generation of 20 years back is now upper middle class and there is

[00:11:22] low income families who have risen to take their life so if I and that's why I'm saying if you

[00:11:27] go out of Bombay to a Jalgaon or a Patan Code you know you will see that that is where Vver 20 years

[00:11:36] back so you know that the thing is the future is not equally distributed it is

[00:11:44] it is different in a metro it is different in tier 2 city and it is different in a tier 4 city

[00:11:52] so access to device access to data access to technology is very different that's one but

[00:12:00] I agree with you on the second trend which is that technology has become so pervasive that

[00:12:06] there is a high amount of awareness I mean I might not own a device as a child in Patan Code

[00:12:12] but I actually share my father's phone for one hour a day to see YouTube or to do something

[00:12:18] so I am aware I might not have access full access and my senses as India progresses as per

[00:12:24] capita income increases this is going to diffuse so what is happening in Mumbai might be a precursor

[00:12:31] to what is going to happen in Jalgaon 5 years later and children are ready I mean if you give

[00:12:36] them a device today they will actually take to it like fish to water and that I think is great

[00:12:42] because I see that it basically takes away the sole reliance on a teacher as the

[00:12:53] as the owner of knowledge right and it has huge potential for democratization of education

[00:13:02] as long as we are able to percolate the access to data and device to the last child that hasn't

[00:13:09] happened yet I'm so glad you brought that up because we had this point that we wanted to make

[00:13:16] Bhutan I both being parents my daughter 7 his son is 6 years old so it's almost you know we can

[00:13:23] compare notes we are that stage and both of us realize one thing that parenting and schooling

[00:13:32] is an unavoidable partnership this is this is our takeaway you know two three years in school

[00:13:38] and this is what we feel that this is how it is being a parent yourself and somebody who runs

[00:13:46] and education is set up right what's your take on this I think there is there is the ideal state

[00:13:53] which you stated which is that parents and schools should work in partnership for the benefit of

[00:13:59] the child one thing which I have seen which in my mind is unfortunate but it is prevalent is that

[00:14:08] slowly the relationship between parent and school has become a something like a consumer

[00:14:15] and a provider parents have started feeling that because we pay fee and sometimes exorbitant fee

[00:14:22] we are entitled to certain services from school so teaching and schooling has become a service

[00:14:27] that parents buy from school and therefore that dynamics of relationship has changed when I

[00:14:33] was a child if a teacher scolded me my parent would basically tell me what have you done wrong

[00:14:42] and you should apologize and you should improve today if a teacher scolds a child the parent asked

[00:14:48] why did you scold my child what are you doing and I think that dynamic is unfortunate because

[00:14:54] education while it is a service India has a long tradition where Saraswati is always above Lakshmi

[00:15:03] but somehow today it has become like with Lakshmi I can buy Saraswati it's unfortunate because

[00:15:09] I think what it does is it basically diffuses the that whole mindset to the student also so when

[00:15:16] they are sitting in the class they are judging teachers and you know when you are a student

[00:15:22] you've got to really be acting as a response to absorb what is happening but if you put the filter

[00:15:29] of judgment in the middle it corrupts your learning so that trend between the parent and the school

[00:15:35] and it is its effect on students is something that worries me it used to not be like this 20 years

[00:15:41] back when we were growing up but it has become like this now. Do you think the problem is the

[00:15:45] the commercialization of this sector and as you rightly put it that its education is now become

[00:15:52] a commodity which you can easily buy and not something that is seen as a privilege I mean it's

[00:15:58] it's everyone's right to be educated but I guess not all education institutes are made equal so

[00:16:04] do you feel that okay I'm paying you a certain premium why isn't my kid a genius?

[00:16:09] yeah I think I mean there's a nuance there see I think when the pendulum swings it goes to

[00:16:16] the one extreme before it comes to the middle my sense is that there is some amount of parent

[00:16:24] parent I mean in the balance of power earlier parent had zero power school had full

[00:16:30] that is also not good because then schools have to be held accountable to some extent to do what

[00:16:34] is right for the child but now my sense is the balance of power has shifted at least in elite

[00:16:41] communities where because parents have has the paying power school has invested enormous amount

[00:16:48] of money in buying that land constructing the building high in the teachers they need to generate

[00:16:52] a surplus so then they go out of their way to placate the parents if I go to small towns

[00:17:00] low income families fortunately they are still not corrupted by this mindset but as you go up

[00:17:08] in higher income brackets it is it is clearly you write I mean you can call it commercialization

[00:17:14] of education but yeah that's happening and if you think about it now that I think one thing

[00:17:21] if you recall earlier schools were maybe 20 years back only run by government religious charities

[00:17:29] or philanthropist right so they it was almost like okay I have this money parked and let's run

[00:17:36] I don't want to generate a surplus out of it because you know the DAVs or all of these institutions

[00:17:44] were charity institutions that's where education was now what has happened is that a lot of

[00:17:51] education entrepreneurs have put in investment and they need to generate a return

[00:17:59] and I think that is partly why it has become market driven and consumerist.

[00:18:05] Yeah and I think that's a great point that you brought up right because it's not just

[00:18:09] the parents mindset that has also changed it's also the educations in generally institutions

[00:18:15] that you want I mean like I went to a school that was actually run by a religious association and

[00:18:22] I think so did not it right so the mindset there is very different and at least the institution

[00:18:28] was just basically you had certain group of people whose or a vocation was teaching and spreading

[00:18:35] education right but that mindset completely changes but okay I want to switch conversation a bit

[00:18:43] and you've talked a bit about your background and especially like at least the starting of lead

[00:18:50] how is that kind of gone hand in hand with your parenting journey right because literally you've

[00:18:57] brought up both your children and the company side by side how is that kind of shaped your philosophy

[00:19:05] as a parent. Yeah we joke that we have three kids so yeah an A and lead

[00:19:09] and because I think and lead takes the most of our most of our time and then the other two.

[00:19:17] See I think I would say that both Smita and me being the kind of people we are we are fairly

[00:19:26] intentional in the way we do things and that was the same with parenting also I'll tell you a

[00:19:33] story and you know it might not be relevant but let me just tell you when you got married like

[00:19:38] any Indian family there was a lot of pressure by going to have kids right the next thing that parents

[00:19:41] or relatives start to ask is okay now you're married when are you having kids and we were like

[00:19:46] we already know hurry but they would not stop so one day I had to sit my dad down I had to

[00:19:53] blame that my aim is that when we have kids we should be able to give them the best possible education

[00:20:01] and today the life cycle stage me and Smita are in I don't think we earn enough to be able to do

[00:20:06] that so I need time to get there so that when we have kids we are able to provide what we think is

[00:20:13] the right education so let us get there and he got it he said okay my concern is that you know

[00:20:23] beyond a certain age it isn't healthy to have kids later so we stuck a pact that before we

[00:20:30] have passed this age we'll have kids but till then don't ask us and I'm giving you this example

[00:20:37] because I think we were intentional that we didn't want to just have kids we wanted to have kids

[00:20:43] when we were ready and we were also clear that we want to have two kids because I think our belief

[00:20:49] was that the best gift we could give our child was a sibling so that's the mindset with which

[00:20:54] we got into parenting and I do answer your question I think when we like when we got into lead we

[00:21:01] studied education when we were becoming parents we studied parenting and one thing which we learned

[00:21:07] which has stayed with me was the role of a parent is to get the child ready for life as soon as

[00:21:13] possible and then get out of the way and literally that's that is our parenting philosophy if I

[00:21:20] sum it up in one sentence and what it means really is that we've got to just keep asking that

[00:21:28] what they're going to try if it is a mistake or if they fail is it going to be fatal or

[00:21:35] scarring in which case we have to be playing the role to ensure they are safe but if it is not fatal

[00:21:44] then let them do it and fall and learn because that's the best tip so our decisions are pretty much

[00:21:51] driven by this philosophy it's like flange kaiti how much do you get not healed in or get

[00:21:56] not healed in that's really how I would survive our parenting. It's very interesting that line

[00:22:04] that line was very nice which is prepare the child for life and then move out I just let them take

[00:22:10] the lead and it brings me to this question right from a from a both professional and a personal standpoint

[00:22:20] when it comes to life skills right what are your thoughts for students should they be master

[00:22:27] or should they be jack of all trades I mean you've done you've done you've done your MBA

[00:22:32] now you're an entrepreneur there's so many things both skill-based and management-based what's your

[00:22:38] technique master or jack you know if you ask me I think it's a false binary and the reason I'm saying

[00:22:44] this is that anybody who wants to do really well in life needs to master something because

[00:22:54] you won't be able to get spectacular success if you're not good at something and good at the level

[00:23:02] where you're better than 99 percent of people that's that's how you get success but there are some

[00:23:09] base level skills that you need to survive and do well in life what are those I mean you need

[00:23:15] to have basic thinking skills which means that you should be able to think deeply you should be

[00:23:19] able to connect the dots you should be able to appreciate multiple perspectives you should be

[00:23:23] able to back opinions with evidence and that's basic thinking skills second you need communication

[00:23:29] because I believe that good communication comes on the back of good listening and good thinking

[00:23:36] it doesn't come on the back of good speaking but that has to that's a basic skill that anybody needs

[00:23:42] you need good collaboration skills because I mean if you they say that if you want to go fast

[00:23:47] grow alone but if you want to go far you've got to work in a team so collaboration skills are

[00:23:51] important and then last bit I would say it is not really a skill but just having a wide exposure

[00:23:58] so that you have the foundation of knowledge to basically connect dots when you are in unfamiliar

[00:24:06] situations so I think those four things almost everyone needs and I'm consciously not going into

[00:24:14] content but these are the four skills everybody needs and then from a skill standpoint whatever

[00:24:20] you choose as your vocation you must pick something that you love because then you will

[00:24:26] enjoy the pain that is required to become a master in it so that's why I was saying it's a false

[00:24:32] burn binary you need a few skills that everybody needs and then you need to pick something that you

[00:24:36] love and just persist with a little bit of a master on master that's how you get success

[00:24:42] wow those are golden words and I think I strongly encourage all our listeners parents are not

[00:24:49] because I think that applies to everyone but I think like we go through those phases and it's

[00:24:57] cyclical right where you literally say because I remember about eight or ten years ago it was

[00:25:02] you have to be a master in this you have to be and now you're talking about generalists and

[00:25:06] specialists but I think you summed it up well now just switching things a bit right and

[00:25:12] now that and I actually did an entire episode on this topic which is the national education policy

[00:25:19] and this was again from a parenting perspective we were kind of commenting or going through it

[00:25:24] but now it's been a couple of years you're actually dealing with it on a professional front and seeing

[00:25:31] implementation of that's happening right so what would you say is some of the challenges that are

[00:25:37] still being faced right because at least and I'm not sure about now there but at least in my

[00:25:42] son's school I keep hearing the term and there is like some structural changes that they're looking

[00:25:47] at doing but it's still taking some time to kind of filter down to the school level right so if

[00:25:52] you could share your experience with that what's been so far so let's let's look at it national education

[00:25:58] policy is like it says it is policy it has to be implemented through a certain through three four

[00:26:05] steps so the second step has been now taken which is the National Curriculum Framework

[00:26:11] what it does it basically lays out some principles on how education should be to bring the policy to life

[00:26:19] now this National Curriculum Framework will be developed into salibai books resources

[00:26:28] from our things to be used perspective structural changes in schools in moving from the

[00:26:34] 10 plus 2 system to the 5 plus 3 plus 3 plus 4 system because schools have to make those structural

[00:26:43] changes and then in the content it will need to change from the way subjects are array today

[00:26:50] from class 1 to class 12 there are certain fundamental shifts that the NCF is now recommending

[00:26:56] that will happen and then finally assessments and exams right so this is to my mind gonna take two

[00:27:04] three years for it to percolate down at the school level and I think with the issue of the NCF is a 600

[00:27:14] page document I spent the last weekend going through it summarizing it and just figuring out

[00:27:21] what are the implications for teachers in schools and us as curriculum developers so I think

[00:27:29] it's a fairly comprehensive document it is pointing in the right direction but it will face one big

[00:27:35] challenge and that big challenge is that unless the pyramid of narrow pyramid where everybody starts

[00:27:45] to converge at 12 and they have to pass that filter to get into colleges unless that opens up and

[00:27:51] you have sufficient supply of good colleges so that everybody doesn't think that 15 years of schooling

[00:27:58] is just preparation for that entrance test to get into a good college that's the current mindset

[00:28:02] right all parents most parents I would say think that school is preparation to get into college

[00:28:09] they don't see school as a place where students have to build fundamental foundational skills which

[00:28:16] are going to stay with them for life because it is in school especially in middle school and high

[00:28:21] that they start to form their identity they start to form their social skills and then college

[00:28:29] and post art is pretty much banded you really can't do much one set personalities form but then

[00:28:35] if all the time is spent on preparing for the IIT, J, or NIT or now CUT you really are not going

[00:28:41] to spend the time in developing the whole child that habit change is more cultural I don't think

[00:28:47] any pure NCF will change it a few more movies like terrorism, you know, and stuff might change

[00:28:53] it but it's a mindset that Indian parents carry driven by the reality that ultimately if you want

[00:29:00] to shift orbit in life you've got to get into a good college and they aren't enough good colleges

[00:29:05] in India. And is that why there is a need to train the trainer as well right because when you

[00:29:15] mention about foundational fundamentals for your children and that is what they'll be building their

[00:29:22] life on do you I mean do you also feel that it depends so much heavily on the teachers and the

[00:29:30] trainers as well of those education systems. Of course see I think education is because it is

[00:29:38] multi-dimensional it is not an easy problem to solve a there are multiple stakeholders you know in

[00:29:44] a school only there are the school owner the principal the teacher the parent and these four are

[00:29:48] working on this child and that's how you make this face but so therefore everybody has to converge

[00:29:55] on the same page to say okay this is what we want to do and it's not an easy problem to solve.

[00:30:00] Now structurally we have to get more colleges structurally we've got to change our assessment structure

[00:30:07] structurally we've got to have a better teacher student ratio and then from a capability standpoint

[00:30:13] I agree with you you have to train teachers you also have to sometimes train parents because

[00:30:19] unfortunately what happens is in most cases we parent from our past because we project what happened

[00:30:27] to us and if we liked it we want the same thing to happen to a child but we don't recognize that

[00:30:33] 30 years of pass since her childhood and the context has completely changed so if you parent from

[00:30:39] your past and not from your child's future you're going to make a mistake and that's what happens

[00:30:45] most of the times. I think one thing that I have definitely learned and I'm so glad you brought up

[00:30:51] that there are certain things that happen in your past and you would want to either cause correct

[00:30:55] or stick to the course rate. I think we basic conversations and there are two that I'm quite

[00:31:02] adamant well yeah sure okay adamant would probably be the right one is and I would love to

[00:31:07] forget your perspective on it one is the fact that I'm going to stick to just one kid right for

[00:31:13] whatever reasons it involves emotional, physical of course monetary as well but do you feel you see

[00:31:23] that happening a lot where people are either having one kid or no kids at all right because

[00:31:30] I mean you're in the thick of it you must be getting a lot of insight and I'm so glad that you're

[00:31:34] here because I've been both me and I've been dying to ask this question to someone that what's

[00:31:39] happening like people are not having kids what's going on. I think I agree with you that there are

[00:31:45] I mean I'm seeing and I am hearing a lot more couples who have decided either to have a pet

[00:31:54] instead of a child or just have a child only one child and it is very different from

[00:32:01] you know our parents and even us maybe 15 20 years back I have certain hypothesis on why it is

[00:32:13] happening and to be honest I haven't thought it through completely so I'm going to jam live on

[00:32:17] why I think it is happening. I think one definitely is that because there are a lot more dual income

[00:32:25] families people don't want to take the time out because when you have a child you need to take

[00:32:32] time out to bear the child during its birth and then post birth for at least a year or two and

[00:32:40] when people see that that's an infraction in their career they sometimes postpone it and then

[00:32:46] after a while I think you get used to the idea of being two people who maybe are kind of self-sufficiency

[00:32:55] and you don't feel the need to have a child and sometimes you feel that it surrogates like a pet

[00:33:02] or something and that I see happening but that could be that is one trend. Second I also feel that

[00:33:09] taking responsibility for other human beings can be overwhelming for people.

[00:33:17] You know when we were young our parents I don't think they're critically evaluated as a choice

[00:33:24] they just thought of it as the next milestone after marriage. You get married you have a child

[00:33:31] you raise it then child takes care of it like that was the cycle that people thought.

[00:33:37] Today I think people are a little more conscious and thinking about their individuality their

[00:33:46] individual freedom their individual joy whether they want to do it so they're exercising choice

[00:33:52] and because it is about taking responsibility it can be overwhelming they are choosing not to have it

[00:33:59] and again there is nothing wrong or right because everybody has to make a decision for themselves

[00:34:04] but those are the two reasons or drivers I see them I'm sure they are more but yeah I think that's

[00:34:12] what is happening today. Yeah and I think the two things just to add on to what you're saying right

[00:34:19] is a first of all awareness I think like going back to that example that you said I think like if

[00:34:24] you grew up in an Indian household you knew that like there was a very linear relationship you had

[00:34:30] or linear trajectory right school college get a job get married have kids that's it right we didn't

[00:34:39] know or anything there and you just it's also what you've seen so is awareness that hey hang on

[00:34:44] I don't have to do exactly these in the order that I was told but second is choice and the fact

[00:34:50] that I think you've put it very beautifully right like there is a way that people are expressing

[00:34:56] their choices whether they want to have a pet against having a kid or they want to I don't know

[00:35:03] just have only one kid right and I think exercising that choice is very important but I want to quickly

[00:35:10] also ask you another thing where and you've talked about a bit where you're seeing a

[00:35:16] tease from the NEB perspective but also just from a perspective of technology but other than that

[00:35:23] are you seeing certain trends in education in India because I mean some of the drivers of course

[00:35:31] we are seeing immediate at home right but as someone who has a larger zoomed out vision

[00:35:37] of the entire landscape we'd love to tap into some of that

[00:35:44] so I think if you see India as contrasted to some of the high ranking pizza countries beside the

[00:35:51] international education assessment that they do for OECD countries India was 72 out of 73 countries

[00:35:59] and the last two kids so really bad but that was one the reason why I moved back to India

[00:36:04] to try to fix education I don't know how much I've been successful so far but it's a long journey

[00:36:10] if you compare India with like I said even with Singapore and US you will see that

[00:36:16] there are two things which are very different one is the curricular goals that the that the

[00:36:21] government sets for the country are very different with NEP and NCF I honestly think it's a big

[00:36:29] step forward because now they are going in that direction in terms of saying that we should

[00:36:34] test for competence we should not test for memory we should build skills we should not just

[00:36:40] you know drive understanding of content and they're saying that we should move towards

[00:36:46] multimodal learning and textbooks can't be the anchor of learning right those are the things that

[00:36:51] are now in the NCF which is great but in order to implement it if you go inside the school

[00:36:58] the schools in these countries are much better resourced now one big difference is that

[00:37:05] about 90 to 95 percent of schools in the US or Singapore would be able to drive multimodal

[00:37:12] learning because they have audio visual device in the classroom and they have the teaching

[00:37:17] learning material in addition to textbooks right so when you walk into a classroom there it is very

[00:37:23] different it is designed for multimodal learning because on any topic the teacher can show a video

[00:37:30] the teacher can do an activity and then teacher can read a passage from the book and the students

[00:37:34] can practice questions if you contrast with India most schools in India even today are book and

[00:37:41] blackboard based solutions big base classrooms so you can't have multimodal learning there what I see

[00:37:47] happening is that with increasing awareness with now the push with NCF and NEP India is currently

[00:37:54] at about 15 percent developed countries are at about 90 percent that is the big shift that India

[00:38:00] is going to go through over the next 10 15 years we are most Indian schools will become multimodal

[00:38:07] and then the conditions are created that when you walk into a classroom when it is resourced

[00:38:14] to have multimodal learning that is where technology will be a big role so just to jump in but

[00:38:21] just to like breakdown multimodal learning for all our listeners I could probably use an example

[00:38:26] and you can confirm if that is right where my son is learning Marathi which is now a language that

[00:38:34] is from the first grade himself but unlike me he's learning it through songs so they actually sing and

[00:38:42] watch videos and songs and he finds it on YouTube and shares that with me and that's a way he's

[00:38:47] learning Marathi which shocked me I was like wait he's not saying it like how we were saying uh uh

[00:38:52] EE all of that uh in there so that is an example you would say of multimodal learning

[00:38:58] yeah so song for example if they are especially if they are seeing it on video because then

[00:39:03] they're also connecting the visual with the word is the audio visual component so that's one

[00:39:09] mode of learning audio visual is one mode of learning book is another mode of learning doing an

[00:39:14] activity is a third mode of learning so if you are multiple modes of learning it becomes multimod

[00:39:19] learning uh most schools in India has only one mode which is textbook and that's the contrast you

[00:39:25] know from a single mode to a multimod okay got totally on uh you I interrupted you for saying

[00:39:31] something I was just saying that you know uh the role that technology is going to play in India

[00:39:37] is one equipped schools to be able to deliver multimodal learning second to enable features to

[00:39:42] be able to teach better you know because if teachers don't get the resources uh to to teach

[00:39:50] multi in a multimodal manner they will continue to stick to their habit of teaching from the textbook

[00:39:55] and we don't have either the time or the approach to train the 10 million features that we have

[00:40:02] in India right because class our conception of training is get teachers in a classroom give them

[00:40:09] some training and then next day they will be transformed it doesn't happen like that uh

[00:40:14] human behavior is always a function of the system in which it is living right I give this

[00:40:20] example that the same person who is spitting on the road in India will go to Singapore and

[00:40:24] be very well behaved and follow all the rules because the system there is different system here is

[00:40:30] so you need to change the system in the school so that the multimodal learning is a natural outcome

[00:40:36] and that's where technology can help uh and then for uh making personalize interventions because

[00:40:43] not all students learn at the same velocity and in the same way so how do you remediate students

[00:40:49] in a personalize manner that's where technology will play a role so those are the three roles

[00:40:52] which technology will play to improve education in schools in India

[00:40:56] the schools especially in in the metros and the urban setup are extremely diligent when it comes

[00:41:06] to the teaching methods whatever board it is there's so many boards and and and then there's this

[00:41:13] whole aspect of you know humanity first which is this new thing that I have started noticing

[00:41:19] in in a lot of schools where you know they teach children kindness manners and so on and so

[00:41:25] forth self respect uh how to deal with people which is great which is fantastic right but do you

[00:41:30] I mean I have noticed that whatever the child has learned in school comes back at home tries to

[00:41:36] implement it in front of the family and the family like I guess we any other is of like

[00:41:41] I'm gonna take okay do don't you feel that this strange duality is where we are stuck and how do

[00:41:48] we get out of it yeah I think one I so agree with you that ultimately values

[00:41:56] are best learned or first learned at home and if if the required conditions are not there then

[00:42:03] they don't take root now one of the ways that if families if families accept that they are

[00:42:10] sending their child to a school to learn uh then if a child comes with a new learning uh they

[00:42:17] need to be openness to embrace it but if a if a family believes that they're sending their child

[00:42:23] only to absorb content everything else I think they want they need to stick to what the family

[00:42:29] believes in then you can't really progress much because I don't think content and values are

[00:42:36] two different subjects values have to be taught through the content the content has to be used

[00:42:41] to teach values I mean even when you're learning English uh when you're reading a story you extract

[00:42:46] kindness out of the story you don't only extract reading comprehension from that story uh so

[00:42:52] it goes back to your earlier question of the partnership between parents and schools

[00:42:57] if parents really believe that school is a way to for their child to progress as a whole child

[00:43:06] and not just for the absorption of content then there is hope uh and there are families which do that

[00:43:13] and you know they see the difference in their their children and then there are some families

[00:43:18] unfortunately who don't do that and their children will then basically pass exams but not really

[00:43:25] learn the values and dispositions required and that's unfortunate yeah I mean just to add on

[00:43:32] that's one of the things we always say right like education doesn't always equil to knowledge

[00:43:37] or just being a good human being right you may not have a certain degree or a certain

[00:43:43] education and still be a good human being and I think that's one of the things where realizing

[00:43:48] in schools right where uh just kindness to others and everyone in society that I think is one

[00:43:56] of those things which is you can't really replace that with anything else if you see the national

[00:44:02] curriculum framework uh it actually uh very nicely lays out the knowledge capacities values

[00:44:09] and dispositions they're broken down the curriculum aims to these four things that they want

[00:44:14] schools to be able to develop in their in their children that's why I'm very optimistic and

[00:44:19] hopeful that if you are able to execute the vision that is enshrined in the MCF we really have

[00:44:26] for our children for the future so but before we let you go this is this is a question we

[00:44:32] we asked most of our guests especially if you are a subject matter expert in your case of course

[00:44:39] a question would be if you had to leave with one thought with one thought for parents school

[00:44:48] and policymaker what would that one thing be I think for parents I would I would just say that

[00:44:58] your role in the child's life is to help them discover what their true

[00:45:05] passion or location is and uh not forced your thinking on them because you come from the past

[00:45:14] and the child's future is much larger than what you know from the past so I think that is one

[00:45:20] thing that I would share with parents and Khalil Jibran actually has captured it much better than

[00:45:25] I would say so I would encourage all parents to read that uh worse on on parenting that Khalil Jibran

[00:45:31] wrote for schools I think uh I would just say that they have to find a way to unshackled themselves

[00:45:41] from the acquired habits of the last 60 years and embrace the fact that if they want to prepare

[00:45:47] their children and students for future they first have to embrace change themselves they can't

[00:45:53] expect a different future from the same old ways of teaching that can't happen I in some said

[00:46:00] right you can't expect a different outcome by keeping doing the same thing because that's the

[00:46:05] first sign of insanity uh the policy makers I think they've done a great job with the NEP and NCF

[00:46:12] I would just I would just request everyone to ask everyone to put politics aside and come together

[00:46:18] for the benefit of our kids because we keep talking about this demographic dividend but it's

[00:46:25] only the next 10 years uh in during which it's going to last so there is there needs to be a sense

[00:46:31] of urgency in bringing all these things to life and not leave it in a document but actually see it in class

[00:46:39] thank you so much to me that's a fantastic way of putting it you've you've given us your time on

[00:46:44] this momentous day when India and Pakistan play a historic match and you've promoted our to talk

[00:46:51] to us so that means a lot for us uh here on Pops and the Paw thank you so much you shared some lovely

[00:46:57] lovely insights and uh giving us an insight into your work your personal life so really really appreciate

[00:47:04] and yes hopefully we can end on those thoughts and let's see how people take that

[00:47:13] thank you so much for being here yeah take care goodbye

[00:47:19] and that was to meet Metha co-founder of LEED I cannot believe nada how similar a lot of

[00:47:26] experiences are right i mean like teaching having parents as teachers and i think that's one of the

[00:47:32] reasons we really enjoyed that chat right there were way too many commonalities um

[00:47:39] and what i liked about Sumit is that he is also learning while he's doing his business and

[00:47:46] you get to hear that from his conversations one particular aspect that i really enjoyed listening to

[00:47:54] honestly i wasn't expecting that answer but when we asked him that question whether it's good to be

[00:47:59] a master of one or a jack of all and he said that that binary doesn't work anymore

[00:48:07] and then he went on to give this wonderful explanation as to why that binary doesn't work

[00:48:12] and how you need to have this open understanding of learning everything no matter how old you are

[00:48:20] but you need to have a very strong depth in one thing and i and i love that answer right because

[00:48:25] there's still so much hope even for people like us in in our in our journeys in our work

[00:48:31] that we are constantly seeking to learn new things but get better at what we're already doing

[00:48:35] fantastic i really enjoyed speaking to him and understanding his perspective on education in India

[00:48:42] and as always if you enjoyed listening to this episode why don't you hit subscribe or rate uh

[00:48:50] episode on whatever platform you're listening to apple podcast, Spotify whichever one or you can

[00:48:56] write to us at popcinapod.gemail.com you can also follow us on social media we do some cool stuff

[00:49:04] on on Instagram and put out some interesting content as well and every time there's a new episode

[00:49:08] that comes up it will be the first one to know uh until next week thank you guys for being around

[00:49:14] and if you have any suggestions for us please feel free to write to us on any of these platforms

[00:49:20] and we'll make sure that we read it and act on it so that's me another pop and see you guys soon