Packaged Foods - The Good, Bad and Ugly with Sudip Putatunda

[00:00:00] Pops in a pod, Pops in a pod.

[00:01:03] The Good, Bad and Ugly with Sudip Putatunda, Pops in a pod. The Good, Bad and Ugly with Sudip Putatunda, Pops in a pod. The Good, Bad and Ugly with Sudip Putatunda, Pops in a pod.

[00:01:53] Have a deeper understanding, a deeper conversation. We've called somebody who is an authority in this space and he is actually a food scientist. So we figured, hey, why not let's get someone who has a scientist in his title?

[00:02:11] Yeah, I mean, let's be honest. And we mentioned this in the past on episodes where as parents you're subjected to so much information online,

[00:02:21] you can't really tell what is right, what is wrong. I mean, that's we're talking about our own health and then when it comes to our own kids' health,

[00:02:29] you're doing 2x or 5x the amount of research, right? So Nadir and I thought it would be great to get someone who has a far more objective view on it but also a parent himself. So Nadir, why don't you tell us more about our guests?

[00:02:45] So today on the podcast we have invited Sudip Putatunda. He is a food scientist and a serial entrepreneur and he's been in the food industry for well over 15 years and continues to do so.

[00:02:58] He's done his education out and out in food technology and currently also pursues a PhD, although not in food. He's been associated with a lot of big global international brands like Heinz, GSK, Kellogg's, ITC, PepsiCo, Unilever and of course, Scatberries as well and a few other big names.

[00:03:22] So we figured, hey, why not let's just call somebody who has been in the food industry who studied food all his life and also, as Pida mentioned, Sudip happens to be a father to an almost 2 year old as well. So yeah, let's hear it from Sudip.

[00:03:37] Hi Sudip, this is Take 2 of us discussing this topic. So first of all, thanks so much for taking time out to speak to us again. Most welcome, Peter. I really enjoyed the first time. So I'm happy to have conversations with you guys as many times as you want.

[00:03:57] Yeah, and the first time was like it had ambience and stuff like that. Today just like back to our boring homes doing the same thing again, Take 2.

[00:04:08] No, no, last time I think it was good because we could all also see how the audience was reacting by the looks they were giving us and also I think that was a good way to know what really interests people.

[00:04:25] It's like, you know, second time around we can focus on those things. Yeah, and I think to just dive straight into the conversation that we had where a lot of people were actually not seen the video.

[00:04:39] So I think probably because Nathir and I work in the advertising marketing and media sphere, we actually did see the video. It went viral and I think we're talking about like three weeks into this.

[00:04:52] Yeah, but again, what was your initial reaction when you came across the video? Right? Like, was it surprise? I don't know, tell us. I'm not going to kind of guide you through this.

[00:05:07] So basically, I mean just to say there was this brand that is a morning beverage drink typically promoted as healthy for and targeted at children.

[00:05:21] But what happened was that something that we in the industry know or knew for ages came out which is that the amount of sugar content in these products are quite high.

[00:05:33] And it's quite high given the regular serving, but people end up having more than one serving just to make it taste here and so on.

[00:05:41] And as people are becoming more and more conscious of childhood diabetes and sugar intake and things like that, when this information came out, it got viral as Rita said, and a lot of people were shocked.

[00:05:58] Of course, then the brand went ahead and tried to stop this through legal action and that just made it even worse. And then everybody was like, this must be a cover up. So my reaction was at two levels.

[00:06:13] One was like a bit, I mean, I must be honest, a bit of an eye roll because being from the industry, like we knew about this for the longest time,

[00:06:22] that there are a lot of products that have a higher than ideal sugar content or even, for example, salt content is a big problem.

[00:06:33] And it's not just beverages, cereals, other products which we typically think are kind of healthy or you know, kind of breakfast products or a lot of health bars, for example, that have a lot of sugar.

[00:06:46] This isn't directed necessarily at kids, but people who kind of are looking at health and they think, okay, let me have this health bar about default for that too.

[00:06:58] So for me it was a bit of okay, I suppose it's good that this is causing information to go out there making people aware. But I was also a bit like, why don't people already know this? Why is this coming as such a show?

[00:07:13] I understand because you've been in the industry for so long. So for you, as you said, and I really liked where you said that it was an eye roll because your goes under the guide, doing the same thing.

[00:07:25] And I'm sure from your perspective, it must be coming from the background of that. Okay, this guy doesn't know how the industry works or the composition of ingredients and things going in a package food.

[00:07:41] But we were just recently going through basic research online and the American Heart Association recommends that children should consume less than 60 spoons or say roughly about 24 grams of added sugar per day.

[00:07:58] So when we talk about package food, it is obviously very important on the whole serve aspect as well.

[00:08:08] So since you brought up salt as well, so sugar, salt, is it like a major component when it comes to taste and that is why there is such a high content of sugar and salt because it contributes to the whole taste aspect of things.

[00:08:24] And the nutrients obviously do reach us through whatever means is possible. Can you help us explain that?

[00:08:31] Yeah, so sugar and salt are the most common taste enhancers and so when at home we cook anything. Typically, you know, you want it a little bit sweeter or you want a bit of pinch of salt.

[00:08:43] And what happens is that with both these products, the more you have, the more your palate kind of gets used to it. So it kind of becomes this thing where you want progressively sweeter and saltier things.

[00:08:57] And so when you have different manufacturers that are kind of making the same food, there is this natural temptation to add more and more of it with, you know, as a competitive edge because these ingredients are quite cheap.

[00:09:10] And therefore, you know, just adding a bit more or even if not adding more like whenever you want to reduce it, you know that okay, if I reduce the amount of salt, it will probably not taste as good.

[00:09:21] So therefore there's a tendency towards having more of this as far as the six, the 24 grams and the 40 spoons. I first of all, to put that in context one normal beverage that we were talking about ahead would have 6 to 8 grams of sugar.

[00:09:37] So already with like the first beverage of the day, more than 30% of the days added sugar is gone right so you add one candy in the day and you're already crossed 100%. So it's not easy to stick to these targets.

[00:09:53] I do have a strongly feel that we shouldn't be looking at this in isolation 24 grams can be too much for somebody who is sedentary also and 24 grams could be like very much manageable for somebody who is active, like, you know,

[00:10:12] if some child is playing all day or doing gymnastics or whatever it is, they could probably go up to 30 40 grams of sugar and they probably even needed to be able to maintain that kind of exercise.

[00:10:22] So I wouldn't just look at it in isolation. I think lifestyle plays a big role. You brought up a very interesting point, Sudeep and I want to hold your thought on that just for a second.

[00:10:33] Since you worked across the industry, right? I mean, you talked about sugar, you talked about salt, carbs is anyway bad and really like seen as the bad thing, right?

[00:10:45] But if you could just like when we take the lens of kids, what would you say are some of the products that we buy every day but not realize that you know, the nutritional value is not really how it is.

[00:11:00] And maybe what is packaged on the packages healthy is not necessarily healthy. So as I gave you the example, I mean, health bars, I think a lot of them are mass marketed. They're these, they're basically candy bars that are being marketed as ant bars, honestly speaking.

[00:11:22] And then there's this new trend of let's say sugar replacement products, you know that use either artificial or other kind of things where again people buy it assuming that okay, this has got to be healthier but they're not fully aware of what it might be doing to let's say a gut flora and you know, other things.

[00:11:46] But I think the biggest worry that I have, or what I suggest to people is that to be aware of just generally synthetic flavors and colors and preservatives and so on and so forth.

[00:12:01] Because as I mentioned earlier, you know, like sugar and carbs for example, if you have a healthy lifestyle that kind of offsets it. But these are certain ingredients which even a healthy lifestyle doesn't offset. You know, something is castinogenic or something has got a correlation.

[00:12:18] Like for example, since we're talking about kids, they're synthetic colors which are known to have a direct correlation with ADHD with children.

[00:12:26] Okay, they're synthetic colors which are known to have other kind of this I mean some of them are just neurotoxins but in India we have such low regulation that all kinds of things happen.

[00:12:37] And in this regard, you know, actually what we call the organized sector, you know, the large companies are not as big culprits as the unorganized sector because when you go to your local sharevala or whatever it is, you know, they are not even following the basic law.

[00:12:57] So because they are just, they don't know any better. And so I don't want the message of what I'm saying to be let's trust or distrust all big companies and quote unquote process foods.

[00:13:08] You know, I would recommend for example, by milk by tetrapac. Now that looks very processed, but it's probably less adulterated than your local, you know, do the walla who's probably, you know, got all kinds of antibiotics and things in his cow.

[00:13:24] So, you know, it's you just need to be aware of what you're having there's no clear cut or you know, don't buy processed food only by this. You need to have overall and try to stick to as much as possible.

[00:13:36] I brought up a great point and now there is going to smile when I say this, but I not too long ago discovered that I have an intolerance to milk.

[00:13:49] And can you imagine for like 30 odd years of my life I've been having milk and milk products, but they're actually doing me more harm than good.

[00:13:59] So one of the things when I found that out, the doctor told me that I also need to get my son checked. So can you imagine my son who six doesn't consume milk and is fine.

[00:14:12] But since you talked about milk, I mean, honestly, milk is easily one of the most adulterated products that we have right for kids and day on day we're giving them this and forcing them to have it.

[00:14:26] So, yeah, it's really crazy when I think about it that like, what's the causes and maybe at some point when I'm thinking about it is all these years I was drinking milk. What exactly it was that caused this right but yeah, that's the situation currently.

[00:14:45] No, see, in general the Indian population has a much higher level of lactose intolerance than many other parts of the world. We don't know this. And a lot of us are surprised because you know the cow and milk is such an integral part of our culture.

[00:15:01] But Indian genetics just isn't well, we're supposed to words consumption of milk. But as far as, let's say you're not particularly lactose intolerant that still be exceedingly careful. Not just of milk but even you know milk derivatives that we have.

[00:15:20] You might have noticed that some if you make a paneer at home. It never tastes as good as when you have paneer outside I mean I would invite anybody to make paneer at home.

[00:15:30] And it's just not going to be as chewy or you know it won't give you the same mouthfeel. But the paneer at home is not adulterated. There's a reason why the shop paneer tastes the way it does.

[00:15:40] I happen to know the kind of crazy things that they put in there to give it that taste. And the local, I mean it's incredible and the more premium the paneer the worse it tastes. But there's a reason for that because it's lesser less of adulteration.

[00:15:55] So just these are things to keep in mind. So in some cases it makes sense to go with the branded process food guys because at least they have an incentive to protect their brand compared to the local shop.

[00:16:08] But in some cases you need to go with the more natural alternatives. Unfortunately I don't have a clear answer to avoid this avoid that you just have to apply. Yeah, I mean another thing also is labels right?

[00:16:20] I mean one of the things I remember reading a few years ago was sometimes just flip over the label because now it's become more stringent in India right? Because you need to say how much each product contains according to the percentage value and all.

[00:16:41] But I know you're smiling and our listeners can't kind of see this but every person is also taking creative liberty in it right? So I think like, I don't know now that do you read labels on the products that you buy?

[00:16:55] I do and this is a habit actually that has that I have developed after I became a parent. Before that nobody cared right? Like before that I didn't even know how much sugar goes in a can of coke.

[00:17:12] I would guzzle down two bottles or two cans and I wouldn't care about it right? But now I'm very, very particular. I mean particular to the extent that like oh my God, four grams of sugar no chance I'm going to have this right?

[00:17:23] But it's only four grams but the mind doesn't like tell you that oh but you know what you can have at least 24 to 30 gram because you work out you do this you do that or whatever it is right?

[00:17:34] So I mean after having this conversation at least my mind has been put to ease that it's okay you just need to know exactly how to balance you can't go crazy having you know sugar every day on whatever.

[00:17:44] But I wanted to ask Sudeep this because thanks to Sudeep he's ruined paneer for me but I will go with the trope. Wait hang on I will go with that trope. I've been eating paneer all my life nothing happened to me I'm almost 40 so what ever right?

[00:18:00] So I want to do that because everyone keeps doing it for me you shouldn't it's okay if you give sugar to your kids nothing happened to you right? That's a different conversation.

[00:18:09] But your regular food right Sudeep everyday food staple food like rice, roti, bread we spoken about milk but just food generally that you're eating even how do we say this natural juice or freshly cold pressed juice

[00:18:27] that's sugar water right in a way so why don't you help us understand the component of sugar in these so-called homemade daily foods as well. So okay so let me just let me what so sugar and carbohydrate is effectively the same thing.

[00:18:46] So I just want to say we've got three food types effectively you've got fats you've got proteins and then you have these carbohydrates. I'm not talking about fats and proteins but a very simple carbohydrate is effectively a sugar and as the carbohydrate gets more complicated

[00:19:02] typically in colloquial since we call them carbohydrates and then as they become even more complicated they become tougher and tougher for us to digest

[00:19:10] and that is when we refer to them as dietary fiber right so it causes sort of I mean it becomes fiber in the food which is indigestible and so on.

[00:19:19] So it's a spectrum now what fruit juice has a lot of fructose in it which is a form of sugar the sugar that we call sugar coat and coat is sucrose.

[00:19:31] Which we get from sugar cane and other similar sources simpler forms the simplest form is glucose which we have with blue conaline.

[00:19:38] The reason that's popular as the you know giving you energy is because it is the simplest so you have it and it instantly hits your blood and you get that kind of sugar cake or that sort of what I want to call it.

[00:19:50] But as what we don't understand is that simple carbs effectively does the same as sugar.

[00:19:58] So what happens is if we have a bowl of sugar we think OK this is terrible but in college we used to use when we did glycemic index not to make too technical but that's the way sugar affects your body is the speed at which it affects your blood sugar is called its glycemic index.

[00:20:15] And telling you simply and the speed at the glycemic index is what causes the insulin spike which in turn is what is detrimental to health. And believe it or not white bread has the same glycemic index as sugar interchangeable.

[00:20:29] Right. So we look at pure sugar and we say well this is terrible and then we'll have four slices of white bread with our Rajma and think OK this was healthy. So when we talk about fructose or I mean all of these things are almost interchangeable.

[00:20:45] I know people who are like OK I don't have refined sugar but I have jaggery and honey. Now jaggery and honey is slightly better than sugar but it's still 95 percent sugar you know.

[00:20:54] So it's not that much better so you just need to educate yourself a bit on the topic. But again it's a big part of its lifestyle.

[00:21:05] There's no point in you know like you can have that bit of fruit juice or whatever else as long as you don't go crazy with it as long as you're living a

[00:21:14] like an active lifestyle. And we were taught this in like I don't remember third standard or fourth standard.

[00:21:20] Have a balanced diet right so have your more complicated carbs like your green leaves and vegetable have your protein whether it's dial or you know if you're non vegetarian then your fish or your meat and have your fats like good fats and things like that.

[00:21:37] As long as you have a balanced diet I wouldn't make sugar out to be like this you know this devilish ingredient. It's a part of a natural diet.

[00:21:47] What I'll just finish with this thought the problem actually isn't sugar as much as it is the refinement and the ease and availability of sugar all the time in so much of the food that we eat. We were never meant to eat so much sugar.

[00:22:03] We evolved from basically from apes. So if you think of the food they have there is a bit of sugar that will come from the oddberry or the fruit that they have but they have a lot more natural vegetable food.

[00:22:18] Occasionally they'll catch a rabbit and have a bit of meat or something and that's where we came from right so that is effectively what our diet should be. It should be unrefined and it should be balanced and we should also learn from the monkeys and move a lot.

[00:22:32] That's just great advice. I know you've brought that up earlier as well that sugar alternatives.

[00:22:38] You spoke about jaggery and sugar being like natural source of sugar but people sort of turn towards certain sugar less or sugar free or however you want to call it product which comes from this plant called Stevia.

[00:22:57] What is that real sugar? Is that a good alternative or does that also have certain chemicals that you shouldn't be pumping in your body? What's the scene over there?

[00:23:08] It's easy to tell people don't have sugar. I have a terrible sweet tooth and so there is always going to be a demand for sugar replacements. Things that sweeten food but don't give you the pain, so then spike or the calories.

[00:23:22] Traditionally the most common one was Aspartame while you were growing up but then it got a bit of a bad rep. I can talk about that if you want to keep that. So then people started looking for more quote-unquote natural sugar replacements.

[00:23:38] Stevia is in that sense natural. It comes from a plant and it's hundreds of times sweeter than natural sugar is. So by putting a tiny quantity of the Stevia extract you can mimic the same degree of sweetness. So to that extent it works.

[00:23:59] The problem is that it is still an organic food and in the sense that it comes from a plant. Recently there have been some bits that are suggesting that doesn't impact your gut flora very well. Some studies have been suggesting that.

[00:24:18] The big problem here isn't that whether Stevia is good or bad it's such a new introduction to our diet that we don't yet know the long-term impact of it.

[00:24:29] Now it comes from a plant, it looks, feels nice and the technical term believe it or not in the industry but even by like compliance like by the FDA or FSS, FSS says grass which is generally regarded as safe.

[00:24:43] Now generally regarded as safe to me is not the most assuring kind of title you can give a food like this but it's a bit like I think this works. So I wouldn't use that as a standard for kids at least.

[00:24:58] I would like definitely regarded as safe which unfortunately these replacements aren't so far.

[00:25:05] I want to kind of round this conversation that we've had because at some point someone tuned in to this episode so far is like is sugar bad or are these guys deeming sugar or I think that's one of the things that I wanted to balance this equation and come back to the point you made earlier.

[00:25:28] At some point we have this entire thing of one size fits all right and just to draw a parallel a simple example I can give off coffee is every six months I read a different thing about coffee and it's always polarizing.

[00:25:46] So to kind of maintain some sort of balance as someone from you know who has a far more research background has a far more better understanding of this.

[00:25:58] What would you say to you know all the parents just like you who are kind of tuned into this and saying you know you cannot say I cannot give my kids sugar at all I think that's let's be honest that's not possible at all.

[00:26:11] So how would you kind of maintain the balance what would you kind of say to them.

[00:26:15] No so on the topic of coffee I worked in a coffee plant as a research scientist for a year so I can see with some authority that I don't know if coffee is bad but I don't think it's doing much good to you.

[00:26:31] So I would I would keep the coffee on the low. It has an ingredient called acrylamide which comes from the process of roasting and burning which is a known carcinogen cell.

[00:26:42] I don't want to feed people out and the biggest proof that I'm not treating people I have coffee all the time.

[00:26:48] So my my long story short is you can drive yourself crazy with you know all of this and probably walking down the streets of Bombay for the day will his ass back for health as anything else given up pollution standards right so you still have to live.

[00:27:03] So my I would just like to say that just have a balanced approach this nothing is the worst thing ever and you know sugar is not in moderation is another food group as I said and just have a balanced life as far as your diet is concerned as well as the general you know your lifestyle just be active and that's a much better

[00:27:28] way of looking at life is having a good balanced diet with a balanced active lifestyle and then you don't need to worry about whether it's 20 grams or 28 grams you know your body can deal with that.

[00:27:40] I have a feeling Sudeep is going to do extremely well with unsolicited non parental advice that keeps getting thrown at him. You should not be giving all of that to your kids like shut up I'm a food scientist you have no idea what you're talking about.

[00:27:56] Just enjoy life. But on that stress is probably a bigger killer than anything else you know so just have a good life don't just keep it balanced I think that would be the bottom line.

[00:28:10] Well you did bring up coffee so I have a feeling that's a whole new can of worms or the new can of coffee that you opened up. That's another episode waiting to happen I'm pretty sure. Yes.

[00:28:23] Thanks so much Sudeep I think we've enjoyed this equally as much the second time around but yeah we definitely I think are going to pick your brain on more stuff like this and I don't think it's going to be only when something like this pops up in the news.

[00:28:40] So thanks so much for sharing with us everything and taking time out again to speak to us. Thank you so much for having me thank you.

[00:28:51] Now that was second time lucky and you know I think we really covered most of the points that we did the first time when we recorded live with Sudeep but listening back also right it was still as fresh and I think as effective as the first time when we spoke to him.

[00:29:09] I mean there's so much more that we know now right about sugar, salt even coffee.

[00:29:18] You know I never thought I'll ever say this but I actually enjoyed hearing more about sugar than actually tasting it so that is how the conversation probably went because it was so informative right.

[00:29:28] So much knowledge that you can learn in like 20 in 20 minutes and it can literally change your life if you follow certain things that Sudeep said.

[00:29:37] And I really liked what he said that you know it's very sad that everyone's going out there and making sugar out to be this bad guy when it's not a bad guy it is an essential component that you probably need in your diet.

[00:29:51] You just need to learn how to balance it out and I like that I appreciate that that he's honest he came out and said listen it's okay everything has sugar in it or salt or whatever it is and it's not a bad guy you need to control your portion intake and yeah I think that's great advice.

[00:30:05] I think that's really good advice.

[00:30:07] I completely agree with you and I think it's not just for kids but parents alike right so that's it for this episode do let us know what you think how do you manage no sugar intake or do you have no rules let us know or do you have no rules for your kids let us know as always we're at popsinapod.com

[00:30:34] Or you can follow us on Instagram and yeah if you have a great topic to discuss or if you would like to suggest some guests please feel free to drop us a message and we'll surely get back to you and who knows one day your suggestion or your recommendation of a person can end up as a guest on popsinapod.

[00:30:52] So yeah go ahead and check out our other episodes and see if you have some ideas for us. Alright then we'll see you on the next episode. Cheers. See you guys.