Delhi's Air Pollution is Back But is There Any Hope Without Draconian Measures?

[00:00:00] Today I would be discussing something that is absolutely topical and will remain so in

[00:00:24] the coming 3 months at least.

[00:00:26] The subject is air pollution which no doubt has been discussed threadbare for the last

[00:00:32] so many years.

[00:00:34] We blame it on burning agricultural residue called Parali, we attribute it to construction

[00:00:40] activity on atmospheric conditions, on vehicular pollution, on garbage burning, on unpaved roads

[00:00:48] but as we grapple with the options they do not seem to be very promising.

[00:00:56] Can any of us really think of going away?

[00:00:59] Can we all have air purifiers in the rooms?

[00:01:03] Can we surround ourselves with greenery or just stay indoors all the time?

[00:01:09] Life has to go on.

[00:01:11] And to discuss this I have with me 3 very knowledgeable and experienced guests.

[00:01:17] The first guest is Dr. Chandra Bhushan widely read for his frequent op-eds in the times

[00:01:22] of India on so many environmental issues including air pollution.

[00:01:27] Then I will talk to Professor Mukesh Khare from IIT Delhi, a national and international

[00:01:33] expert on pollution.

[00:01:35] Finally, I was fortunate to have Mr. Nautial, the member secretary of the newly set up

[00:01:41] Air Quality Management Commission, a single point of reference and possessing enforcement

[00:01:47] authority to vote to oversee the abatement of pollution in the national capital region.

[00:01:55] Let's start.

[00:01:56] You are tuned into Over to Shailaja, a podcast where we will talk about diverse experiences

[00:02:07] from my long career as a civil servant and the different roles I have played for over

[00:02:12] 50 years.

[00:02:14] But the podcast is not about my career or my achievements.

[00:02:19] I bring you stories rooted in real life which remain and are even more relevant

[00:02:25] today.

[00:02:26] I am your host Shailaja Chandra and this is my podcast Over to Shailaja.

[00:02:40] Of the world's 30 most polluted cities, 21 happened to be in India.

[00:02:46] Six Indian cities are among the top 10 polluters in the world.

[00:02:51] Delhi and the neighbouring cities of Faridabad, Ghaziabad, Gurugram and Noida all have

[00:02:57] very high levels of air pollution.

[00:03:01] Every winter we have doctors warning us about the risk of getting severe health problems even

[00:03:06] to the point of suggesting that we just stay indoors.

[00:03:11] The possibility of Delhi ever having the kind of winters we saw some 30-40 years ago now

[00:03:16] seems remote.

[00:03:19] In my growing years and in fact even until the early 90s, one looked forward to clear

[00:03:24] blue skies and sunny days throughout December, January and February.

[00:03:30] Delhi was landlocked even then and the contours of surrounding Haryana and Uttar Pradesh have

[00:03:36] not changed.

[00:03:38] But starting from the mid-90s, the emission from vehicles grew, diesel buses spewed smoke

[00:03:44] everywhere and suddenly Delhi skyline changed with frantic construction activity seen as

[00:03:50] a sign of great development and progress.

[00:03:54] The pollution became unbearable as power stations belched smoke day and night and diesel buses

[00:04:01] spewed smoke throughout the city.

[00:04:04] In 1998 and thereon the Supreme Court became very active.

[00:04:09] It directed the Delhi government to phase out all diesel buses at the rate of 200 every

[00:04:15] month and use electrostatic precipitators in the power plants.

[00:04:22] Then came a directive to move over to compress natural gas, something nobody had heard about

[00:04:27] in all public transport which meant thousands of buses, three-wheelers and taxis were expected

[00:04:34] to be converted in a certain given time frame.

[00:04:38] The government of Delhi took it very lightly year after year.

[00:04:43] By 2002 the Supreme Court came down heavily on the government and even threatened

[00:04:48] to jail all key officers.

[00:04:52] It was my luck that I had just then taken over as Chief Secretary of Delhi when the Transport

[00:04:57] Commissioner told me that we would both have to go to jail as nothing had been done in

[00:05:02] the previous years.

[00:05:04] It was my job to see that all the measures fell into place and the requirements were

[00:05:10] certainly not small while the resistance was huge.

[00:05:15] The DTC buses had to get the CNG cascades filled and erected on the top of the buses even

[00:05:23] as so many diesel run buses had to be phased out every month.

[00:05:28] A slew of central government, Delhi government as well as private land holders had to be

[00:05:33] persuaded and then forced to permit the digging to be undertaken to lay CNG pipelines

[00:05:39] underground.

[00:05:41] This went on throughout the night across the length and breadth of the city.

[00:05:46] While the Indaprastha Gas Limited Corporation was at the helm of affairs as far as laying

[00:05:51] the pipelines was concerned, there was much more coordination which had to be done by

[00:05:55] the Delhi government.

[00:05:57] Bus bodies had to be got manufactured and assembled at 36 different places in the

[00:06:02] country and there were mishaps almost every day when one bus or the other caught fire

[00:06:08] or there was some other problem.

[00:06:11] Public resentment was huge and at times people had to commute using trucks as public transport

[00:06:17] went off the roads.

[00:06:20] But at the end of what seemed to be a nightmare, there was a perceptible improvement in air

[00:06:26] quality something that was particularly noticed by visitors to the city.

[00:06:32] CNG was certainly a success story and it was the combined effort of everyone but

[00:06:39] certainly because the Supreme Court would take, would just showed zero tolerance for

[00:06:45] any excuses.

[00:06:47] I was fortunate to be awarded on behalf of the government of Delhi the International

[00:06:53] Clean Cities Award at Palm Springs USA and indeed for all of us it was a proud moment.

[00:07:01] But this is not a story of my success.

[00:07:05] It is to bring out the ingredients that made it possible and without question the unflinching

[00:07:12] directions from the Supreme Court left no loopholes for political manipulation and manoeuvring

[00:07:19] or official apathy.

[00:07:30] In the last few years despite so many initiatives we have not seen anything that has made

[00:07:35] such a colossal difference and that includes so much work which was started on the graded

[00:07:42] response action plan called GRAP, the National Clean Air Program, the winter action plan of

[00:07:49] the Delhi government, the NDMA's guidelines but not even the Delhi government's ban on

[00:07:56] odd and even cars made a difference.

[00:07:59] It just went up in smoke.

[00:08:01] The experts I spoke to are agreed that without draconian measures there is no hope

[00:08:07] for the city or for the surrounding areas.

[00:08:11] Delhi also has thousands of clusters of small scale industries and air quality in areas like

[00:08:17] Anan Parbat, Narayana, Okla and Bazeerpur industrial areas remains critical almost always

[00:08:24] because of the toxic content in the air.

[00:08:28] Many of the polluting industrial activities also take place inside households and just

[00:08:33] how much air pollution can come down can be judged from the improvement of air quality

[00:08:39] during the 74 day clampdown on all non-essential activities from last March to June 2020.

[00:08:47] In Delhi the air quality improved dramatically and we even attained the label of satisfactory

[00:08:53] something the capital city is never able to attain.

[00:08:57] Whether any improvement is at all possible is the subject of my podcast and to discuss

[00:09:03] that I have three guests all of whom have the gravitas to be talking on air pollution.

[00:09:10] The first is Dr. Chandra Bhushan, the CEO of an organization called I-Forest and better

[00:09:16] known as a columnist on environmental issues because he writes frequently in the times

[00:09:22] of India.

[00:09:23] He was honoured with the Ozone Award by UN Environment for his contribution to climate

[00:09:29] change mitigation.

[00:09:30] He is also an expert member on the climate change for the basic group of countries comprising

[00:09:35] Brazil, South Africa, India and China.

[00:09:39] My second guest is emeritus professor Dr. Mukesh Khare who has been a professor at

[00:09:44] IIT Delhi since 2007 and has a specialization in vehicular pollution modeling and indoor

[00:09:52] air pollution.

[00:09:54] He does not mince his words.

[00:09:57] My third guest is the member secretary of the new commission on air quality management

[00:10:02] set up by an active parliament only in April this year.

[00:10:06] The commission has to focus on the abatement of air pollution in Delhi and the national

[00:10:11] capital region.

[00:10:13] That is new and we have to wait and watch what it can achieve.

[00:10:18] Let me now start with my two experts and listen to the plans of the new air quality

[00:10:23] commission.

[00:10:25] Dr. Chandrabhushan, I start with you.

[00:10:28] Dr. Bhushan, you wrote in Times of India very recently that focusing on automobiles and

[00:10:35] their fuel is very small compared to the whole pollution caused by coal and biomass

[00:10:42] burning.

[00:10:43] Which segments use those two?

[00:10:46] Coal and biomass the most.

[00:10:48] If you made policy what would you do about it knowing that it is a human problem?

[00:10:53] Well if you look at air pollution then air pollution is directly linked with what we burn

[00:11:02] ultimately.

[00:11:03] There are two sources one is dust which comes out of land and building and construction

[00:11:10] site.

[00:11:11] Second is air pollution which comes from burning of material.

[00:11:14] In India we burn about 2 billion tons of material to meet our energy need or we

[00:11:21] just burn those materials to get rid of those materials.

[00:11:25] For example we burn about a billion tons of coal.

[00:11:29] So 50% of what we burn in India is coal.

[00:11:33] We burn also about 500 million tons of biomass as cooking fuel and then we burn about 100

[00:11:38] million tons of agricultural residues in fields which farmers burn them to get rid of those

[00:11:43] agri residues.

[00:11:46] So about 80 to 85% of what we burn in India is actually coal and biomass.

[00:11:53] A thumb rule analysis you find that about 80 to 85% at least 80 to 85% of your air pollution

[00:12:02] is coming from burning coal and biomass and only about 12 to 15% is coming from burning

[00:12:09] petroleum products.

[00:12:10] Entire focus in India so far is to tackle that 10% problem which is petrol, diesel and

[00:12:17] CNG being burned in automobile whereas 80 to 85% of the problem which is coal and biomass

[00:12:24] we are not addressing.

[00:12:26] Of course coal and biomass are difficult issues.

[00:12:29] We will have to work with poor to provide them with alternate cooking fuel.

[00:12:34] So coal based thermal power plant provides us electricity, we will have to install more

[00:12:38] renewable energy but the bottom line is this without addressing coal and biomass no country

[00:12:45] in the world has solved air pollution.

[00:12:47] What do you do about the fact that you cannot close the power plants?

[00:12:51] You can put precipitators yes.

[00:12:53] You can't give alternate fuel because briquettes and all will take ages to be made and

[00:12:58] provided.

[00:12:59] Most people do have gas connections now unlike in the earlier days but you are right

[00:13:03] the chula burning and all that and even garbage burning in the periphery of Delhi it goes on

[00:13:09] is a reality.

[00:13:10] But in a way I asked you if you were in the policy chair what would you say because to

[00:13:17] say that we must work with the poor and all yes we know that but what how?

[00:13:23] So I think I will not give false hope to people that we can solve air pollution

[00:13:29] in two weeks or two years.

[00:13:31] I think that is the biggest mistake we have done.

[00:13:34] I think it is important to tell people where the problem is and how that problem can be

[00:13:38] solved and how much time it is going to take.

[00:13:40] And therefore in my op-ed I have clearly said that this transition is going to be a difficult

[00:13:45] transition.

[00:13:46] There are no easy answer for air pollution as our politicians are trying to make.

[00:13:52] Mr. K.G. Rewal is putting up smoke tar that's not going to solve problem or

[00:13:57] Mr. Gadkari is saying electric vehicles are going to solve our air pollution problem

[00:14:00] that's not going to happen.

[00:14:02] So as a policy maker the first thing I am going to tell people is to let them know what the

[00:14:07] reality is and the reality is our energy basket is our air pollution basket.

[00:14:11] If we are not able we will not be able to change our energy system we will not be

[00:14:17] able to solve air pollution.

[00:14:18] Thank you for telling this so upfront in such an upfront way on the podcast because

[00:14:24] we all sort of grumble all the time but we really don't know that there is no

[00:14:29] real future in the next one or two years probably not even in four or five years.

[00:14:34] I want to come to my next question which is really rooted in the here and the now of households

[00:14:40] and people who live in office I mean work in offices and day-to-day life.

[00:14:45] The advice that you should go in for air purifiers humidifiers you should put lots

[00:14:50] and lots of house plants these are all are they gimmicks or do they have any kind

[00:14:55] of real effect to which is worth investing in?

[00:14:59] Well air purifiers do work but you need to have a closed environment.

[00:15:08] Air purifiers will not work if your windows and doors are open so they do work.

[00:15:14] Let me the simple answer is this air purifiers do work.

[00:15:18] It depends on what kind of air purifiers you have but they are quite capable of

[00:15:25] capturing particulates matter and some volatile organic compounds and molds and other things.

[00:15:30] They will be able to reduce it but the problem is this that the amount of pollution

[00:15:38] that is there is very high. Daily on an average are PM 2.5 annual levels are about four times

[00:15:47] the standard so there is a limit till which air purifiers can also reduce that pollution.

[00:15:54] I am not going to be a hypocrite and say you know what don't use air purifier because we need to first clean the environment

[00:16:00] and I have air purifier. I have seen it working during extreme air pollution season.

[00:16:10] They do bring down pollution level inside your room.

[00:16:14] As far as humidity fire is concerned you don't need it in a climate in Delhi.

[00:16:20] Unless and until you have a heated house where the moisture level goes down significantly.

[00:16:27] So humidity fire is not for our kind of climate it is largely for western climate.

[00:16:32] As far as plants are concerned of course whether air pollution or not it is always

[00:16:37] environmentally as well as aesthetically nice to have plants and to live with plants

[00:16:44] allow a biodiversity to grow around you but the impact of plants on pollution level is not very well established.

[00:16:52] Nevertheless irrespective of whether it is going to significantly reduce air pollution or not

[00:17:00] I will always encourage people to have plants around them.

[00:17:03] Okay but that brings me to yet another question which is related in one way.

[00:17:08] It's a simple question but it's a debate that families constantly have to face

[00:17:13] to walk or not to walk is the question. Some say walking is a must and as long as one is surrounded by greenery

[00:17:20] and away from the traffic the air quality index may be not as harmful as the next station which is showing something horrendous.

[00:17:30] Actually it isn't at that level for you because you're in a park or you're in a secluded part of a residential colony

[00:17:38] and therefore the severe and hazardous warnings don't really apply that much to you

[00:17:44] because you're privileged and are able to find a quiet spot with a park and greenery and all that.

[00:17:50] Is that got any truth in it or should these warnings of severe and hazardous really mean that we lock ourselves up?

[00:17:58] No I think one thing that we all have become accustomed to is mask which is extremely good

[00:18:05] because you can now, when the pollution level is high you can put on your mask and walk.

[00:18:11] It will have lower impact on your lungs. It will be able to filter significant amount of at least coarse particles that we have in Delhi.

[00:18:21] So my first answer is even if the pollution level is high you can put on your mask and do your physical exercise.

[00:18:29] I think it is good for you. You don't have to be so much scared of air pollution and remain inside and create many other health issues that comes out of it.

[00:18:41] As far as large green areas is concerned you will have a little bit lower pollution level simply because you have large spaces where there are trees.

[00:18:54] As I said it is not conclusively established that trees do reduce pollution level but because it's such a large and green and lush area away from traffic you will have a little lower pollution than what you will have on the road.

[00:19:09] So of course, you know, large green spaces is always good in a city.

[00:19:14] Despite this I think cities like Delhi should have as much green spaces as possible. It will provide spaces for people to be away from noise and road and vehicles which itself is fantastic.

[00:19:30] So do go, do walk, do put on mask and then we all will work together to reduce pollution over the next couple of years.

[00:19:40] Thank you so much Dr. Chandra Bhushan. So let's hope it's not two weeks or two years or 20 years I don't know but let's try and live better.

[00:19:49] I now come to Dr. Mukesh Khare. Professor Khare, for long years we have heard that pollution in Delhi will reduce because something entirely new is being tried this year or next, I mean was tried last year.

[00:20:09] But with all the talk of reduced diesel consumption, bans on dirty fuel, great expectations that electric vehicles will perform a miracle, one year's less talk of controlling the three biggest polluters.

[00:20:23] The continued use of biomass and coal and household and household, the dust coming from unpaved roads in addition, the construction activity.

[00:20:33] Can you tell my listeners in broad terms where the truth lies? The PM 2.5 levels in Delhi are said to be three times the national standard so one does not understand how getting after automobiles and leaving other sectors in a way we don't hear that much about them.

[00:20:51] What would be your answer to the listeners?

[00:20:54] The truth lies in the fact that the user of the petroleum product which is vehicles and which are one of the major users, the number of these vehicles are increasing exponentially.

[00:21:07] Now if you see in Delhi there are about 12 million registered vehicles plus the floating weight-teller population from surrounding area which also runs into the millions.

[00:21:17] That is one of the contribution to pollution road from one of the major users of petroleum that the vehicles become a major source of pollution.

[00:21:24] So it is a number which is increasing especially for PM 2.5 which contributes about 25% to the overall pollution of the Delhi.

[00:21:34] If you see the other sources, for example road dust which contributes 35% around 25 industrial cluster around Delhi which is 15-20%, biomass burning 5-7%, household pollution which contributes ultrafine particles which is 5-10%,

[00:21:52] construction industry which is 2-3% and crematorium which is 1-2%. If you add all these other sources it becomes much higher than the contribution from the vehicles.

[00:22:03] So I think that the target to control the sources must be much, much more to these additional sources rather than blaming the vehicle population only.

[00:22:18] Right. A related question professor is Parali burning. Every year in winter we hear about these farm fires and within this biomass segment we hear that the biggest polluters are in Punjab and Haryana

[00:22:32] who burn crop residues to prepare for the next sowing season. But some experts question this and what they say is that residue burning or Parali burning is responsible yes for winter pollution

[00:22:46] but then in that case Gurgaon, Faridabad, Noida would have been far more affected than Delhi because they are closer in some sense and this is not apparent.

[00:22:56] So is Parali as responsible as made out? How is Delhi more affected than other cities in NCR?

[00:23:04] How would I feel that Parali burning is certainly responsible but it is an episodic pollution. It is not entirely responsible for increasing the, especially PM 2.5 concentration in all these cities including Delhi, Gurgaon, Faridabad and Noida

[00:23:23] because all these cities are more than 300 kilometers especially from Punjab which is a major area of Parali burning.

[00:23:31] Now here if you see the additional local sources of PM 2.5 and if you compare the number of sources in Delhi with Gurgaon, Faridabad and Noida it is far more higher than that.

[00:23:46] So end effect of the Parali burning emissions is becomes more or less similar in all these cities which is not like we cannot say that Delhi is more or Gurgaon is less or Faridabad is more.

[00:24:00] Overall effect of Parali burning becomes more or less similar because of their distance. However due to difference in number of local sources among these cities the PM 2.5 concentration becomes very high during the winter period.

[00:24:15] Sorry to interrupt you but you have used this term local sources. What do you mean exactly when you?

[00:24:20] Yes, local sources in these cities is mainly the road dust, biomass burning and household pollution, vehicular pollution, the resuspension of the road.

[00:24:36] These are some of the local sources which are much higher in number as well as in concentration with respect to the PM 2.5.

[00:24:45] Overall the Parali burning contribution to PM 2.5 is merely around 10-15% and that too for a very short period.

[00:24:53] I come to my third question professor. It is that in a situation where we know enforcement is weak and it's often delayed and as you too have observed it poses difficulties because it involves citizens

[00:25:07] and really people who are you know eking out a livelihood how do you really deal with them and just close everything down.

[00:25:14] Yet it is the 40 to 60 day period in a year but long enough to cause and exacerbate severe respiratory problems.

[00:25:23] Whatever action has been promised and is being sound which just sounds too slow and long drawn out every time you hear of somebody you know having an asthmatic attack,

[00:25:33] some children are you know laid up elderly people are laid up.

[00:25:36] Do you see the possibility of sufficient improvement in the foreseeable future or is it just going to be from year to year we will face this winter pollution and talk of you know solutions like you need to relocate and things like that.

[00:25:51] What is your advice given your enormous width of knowledge?

[00:25:55] In my experience of working with the you know government agencies including the pollution control board ministries in Delhi and neighboring states.

[00:26:07] I feel that there is always be a possibility of reduction in the pollution but as far as our system is concerned the present working framework of regulators

[00:26:18] whether it is central pollution control board or commission for air quality management or daily pollution control committee or any other state board.

[00:26:26] It seems to be very difficult to bring down the air pollution levels in any city not only in Delhi but any city of India.

[00:26:33] The reason is that we always believe in ad hoc approach and decisions that too during the critical period when the pollution becomes when air quality index reaches severe, severe or very poor

[00:26:47] then we start taking decision. What is the use of that in that period because pollution has already happened.

[00:26:52] Rest of the year the regulators and state and policy makers they say title. I am sorry to say that.

[00:26:58] Right so what during 1960s you know I heard a speech from the government sometimes in IIT Delhi when he visited you know the late Prime Minister Pandey Jawahala Leru as the LG said during his speech

[00:27:13] that he said very clearly that if you want to control the Delhi and its you know ecosystem the expansion of the city and its population must somehow be regulated strictly.

[00:27:25] That was in 1960s when late Prime Minister Jawahala Leru knew it and he said it.

[00:27:30] So the only way out I feel if I connect his statement and now to control the air pollution is to take stirred in strict actions completely stop influx of population

[00:27:41] instead decentralize the whole ecosystem of Delhi to neighboring NCR states no further permission for new vehicles or number of vehicles by ownership must be controlled quality of road and footpath must be improved using the polymers so that they can be strengthened

[00:27:59] and decongestion at every hotspot of the city. I think these are some of the very strict and stern action unless we take I don't think so the future is good it will always be agree that's what my feeling is.

[00:28:14] Thank you professor you have done some really solid plain speaking and I suppose it needed to be said because we are always you know going round in circles and waffling but some of these measures you know are

[00:28:27] I don't know whether one can stop influx of population because constitutionally anyone and citizen can settle anywhere but you are right that it is not even.

[00:28:36] We can always do it in some or other way. Yes and in any case this is it's all unorganized what happens is the unorganized there are no roads there is no drainage with the result the pollution is bound to you know go up and that is the root cause

[00:28:53] but anyway thank you so much for agreeing to talk to me and for being so upfront. Thank you. You're welcome.

[00:29:01] I now start with Mr. Nautial the member secretary of the commission for air quality management. Good morning Mr. Nautial it is really a pleasure to have you.

[00:29:19] I know that the air quality management commission was set up last April that is April 21 and there have been great expectations that this would be able to overcome the kind of shortcomings that were being faced for years together.

[00:29:37] The commission was set up by this act of parliament and the hopes are that the air quality may improve because finally a body like the commission which has direct authority would be able to clamp down on polluters and enforce the regulations which were largely ignored.

[00:29:54] I know that your mandate runs across the whole of the National Capital the NCR the National Capital Region Territories and that really includes parts of the whole of Delhi and of course parts of Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Haryana and even parts of Punjab.

[00:30:11] So you have a huge canvas to work on. I would like to ask you to please tell my listeners a little about how AQMC is different from the Central Pollution Control Board or the State Pollution Control Boards in terms of possessing direct authority to act. Please go ahead.

[00:30:33] The commission for air quality management plays an overarching and consultative process with all the stakeholders in tapping various issues concerning air pollution in the NCR.

[00:30:48] And to this end we have targeted all sectors like ducts from the roads and construction activities, vehicle pollution, industrial pollution, biomass burning, solid waste burning etc.

[00:31:01] The commission has also been working on policy framework and plans through regular interactions with the same government bodies and agencies concerned including issuing statutory directions for preventive and corrective measures towards tackling air quality issues around the NCR.

[00:31:17] Right, right. So you are really depending on a number of institutions besides what the commission directly has knowledge of and the authority to act on.

[00:31:27] My second question is that we did hear just a few weeks ago that heavy fines were imposed by the AQMC against those who caused pollution by ignoring the regulations on construction and demolition waste.

[00:31:43] Could you tell listeners something about AQMC's strategy in pinning down such polluters?

[00:31:48] Definitely. All the projects in Delhi NCR in more than 500 square meters area are now required to register themselves on a dedicated web portal.

[00:31:58] To self-certify various compliances related to the construction and demolition waste management rules that have been notified by the Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change

[00:32:09] and various environmental safeguards associated with the building and construction projects.

[00:32:16] So this would include remote surveillance through video sensing, efficient means for transportation of materials in covered vehicles to obey dust pollution, use of dust screens and guards at the construction sites, frequent use of water mist and dust separatants.

[00:32:33] I want to interrupt you because everyone would be very interested in knowing Mr. Nautial. Suppose a guy does not do it, how do you get to know?

[00:32:43] While the focus is on self-certification, the enforcement agencies through the central pollution control board, the DPCC and the various agencies concerned have been issued statutory directions to conduct regular and incognito inspections at the project sites that you are referring to.

[00:33:01] And those violating the norms shall be liable with suitable and heavy environmental compensation charges and penalties to act as a determinant. So this has started showing some good results.

[00:33:14] My question was specific to the fines that you had imposed recently two-three weeks ago. What were those people doing? What kind of pollution were they indulging in?

[00:33:26] For instance, the screen guards which are supposed to be put along to guard against the dust emanating from the sites, they are not available. The water sprinkling and dust-supprescent sprinkling which is required to be done in and around the project site for proper storage and handling of materials, that was not being adhered to.

[00:33:50] Anti-small guns either not in adequate numbers or not working efficiently found at the sites and things like that, unlike movement of material, transportation material in open trucks.

[00:34:03] The general feeling is that the biomass burning which goes on among poor people, the kind of household industries that go on which create a lot of both water pollution of course but also air pollution because of burning.

[00:34:17] How are you going to reach out to these people on the periphery of Delhi and people say that it's not even that much the fault of Parali burning as much as this kind of peripheral burning which goes on, which is direct and is very very noxious.

[00:34:47] So, action plans for control of such incidences as open biomass burning, open solid waste burning and including the agricultural stubble burning that has attracted the attention of the commission.

[00:35:05] And we have issued directions in that regard as well and as in the case of construction and demolition activities, we've also directed for setting up of dust management cells by the road construction maintenance and repairing agencies.

[00:35:21] Besides, there are some other preventive measures like paving of pathways, green central verges and open areas along the roads, carrying out regular maintenance of roads to facilitate that also have been directed by the commission to be taken up.

[00:35:38] The framework was developed by the commission and the states in the NCR and Punjab have developed detailed action plans for their respective states for prevention control of patti stubble burning including various in-situ and X-situ measures.

[00:35:52] And efficient monitoring and enforcement are equally important as I said to guard against the incidences of biomass burning, open burning of solid waste to control air pollution from such sources.

[00:36:04] Thank you Mr. Nautial as member secretary of the commission. I want to really wish on half of the public that I hope you will succeed in your endeavor.

[00:36:14] Things have not happened in the last so many decades, so people have become cynical but the fact that efforts are being made is very heartening and I do hope that you are able to get work from all these the municipal corporations and from these PWD and I hope the commission will be able to put some of the

[00:36:33] sense of realism among these people because people are suffering. Thank you, it is very nice of you to have come.

[00:36:42] As we come to the end of this podcast let me recount my three takeaways.

[00:36:49] Number one, my two environment experts have talked about influx of population into Delhi and the cities surrounding us.

[00:36:59] They would like to see some limits on growth. Of Delhi's population of 20 million plus, almost 7 million live in unauthorized colonies and another about 2 million in the slums.

[00:37:12] And every poor family will necessarily burn coal, biomass and garbage whether it is for domestic needs or low income generation.

[00:37:23] The constitution of India gives the right to every citizen to move and live anywhere. All governments not just in North India but even in other states have never placed what the constitution refers to as reasonable restrictions on movement.

[00:37:39] One expert on my panel today is very clear that without an embargo on haphazard settlements, the containment of pollution would be impossible.

[00:37:50] Number two, there is no hope that air pollution will magically disappear this winter or in the forthcoming years.

[00:37:58] For that, everything has to be done in a systematic way without ad hoc knee jerk reactions only when things go horribly wrong.

[00:38:08] That includes the need to recycle the agricultural residue to reduce the number of vehicles on the road by introducing a congestion tax and restricting the purchase of additional cars through enhanced registration fees.

[00:38:22] That would mean confronting the car lobby which will not be easy.

[00:38:28] Number three, the new commission for managing air quality appears to be confident of reducing construction and demolition waste pollution, dust and other polluting activities through better oversight, supervision and enforcement.

[00:38:44] Certainly putting restrictions on construction and buildings would go a long way in reducing the dust that surrounds us.

[00:38:52] Only time will tell whether the commission will be able to do what so many bodies have promised but have failed to achieve.

[00:39:00] To be fair, none of them enjoy the direct authority that the commission has been given.

[00:39:06] But the question remains, can one or should one nab the poor when they cook and try to keep themselves warm?

[00:39:16] And with that, I come to the end of my eighth and final episode of Over to Shailaja and thank you enormously for listening.

[00:39:33] I hope you have enjoyed my podcasts on a wide range of here and now subjects.

[00:39:40] All my guests were handpicked for their knowledge and experience and have given rare insights on subjects which ought to matter to every thinking citizen.

[00:39:51] India's population pursuing parallel careers for women, managing sudden hospitalization, India's performance at the Olympics,

[00:40:01] why harnessing solar rooftop energy eludes India, the truth about the medical system called Ayurveda,

[00:40:09] the sad specter of child marriages, can our cities ever overcome winter pollution have been my topics.

[00:40:18] And in every conversation my guests told listeners something new, something important,

[00:40:24] something which has not been written about at one place so comprehensively.

[00:40:31] With that, this is Over to Shailaja saying goodbye. Namaste.