Art, Anonymity, and Authenticity ft. Udit Bhamri

[00:00:07] Hi everyone. Today we have a very interesting guest in our studio. He's here for various reasons, one of them being that he really does have a pulse on popular culture across countries,

[00:00:20] India and abroad. He is a great supporter of our podcast and he is himself a person who has a background in advertising, in digital media and his greatest passion in life which has earned him

[00:00:35] a fair bit of fame in fact is that he is an art aficionado since the age of eight and therefore he is an art curator purely by interest and passion as a hobby. So we have Udit Bhanbri in

[00:00:52] the studio today. Udit, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. I think my biggest passion these days is not your auntie. So thank you. I am honored to be here.

[00:01:04] Oh yeah. It means so much to have you because I know how elusive you are. Sometimes I'm in full disclosure Udit is a friend, a dear friend and when I call him out of 18 times when I call him

[00:01:15] there's just that one time that I might get lucky because I listen to you every week for half an hour. I don't need to talk to you anymore. He says that we haven't spoken and Udit,

[00:01:26] we haven't spoken. I've been calling you since months because I listened to your podcast and felt we've already spoken. It's true. That's lovely. I should say the tapes of my podcast to people I don't want to speak to now. That's a plan. That's clever. Yeah. So anyway, Udit,

[00:01:42] there's so many things one can talk about with you. Right? So I think Kiran can start with the first question because I know him so well. Maybe you can set the ball in motion.

[00:01:51] Okay. Was it when I heard that you'd agreed to come on the podcast, I did what everyone does. I tried to Google you up. There's nothing available there except for a little bit seer in there and

[00:02:02] I know that you're in very passionate about popular culture, about people's behaviour and there's art. That's a very eclectic mix with it. He actually curated something called Call Me By Your Name and that's a lovely book and a lovely movie. So tell us about this. How

[00:02:17] did art, curation, how does this come in your life and from the age of eight? I used to paint and like most kids I think in India at least at that time there was very little

[00:02:28] avenues to kind of explore that creativity and understand it. So I would go to Jahangirath Gallery in the 90s which was the only gallery in India as such and it wasn't what it was today. It

[00:02:41] was a very different kind of space where artists used to actually come and meet and I was the biggest fan of MF Hussain who I think of every single day even though he's passed away

[00:02:52] like 10 years ago. He's someone who's been an idol and I would go in the hope of running into him and then ended up just meeting many other artists. As an 8-10 year old? Yeah but you know with Hussain it's interesting because the 8-10 year old sounds

[00:03:09] shocking now but he looked like a sadhu, like he looked like a wizard. Like he was not wearing he was quirky. He was quirky. He had a big beard and white hair and he always looked the same age

[00:03:20] and he walked barefoot and he was in the news always for the wrong reasons. Even back then what were the wrong reasons? I mean getting thrown out of Willingdon Club for not wearing

[00:03:29] shoes. I see. Did you like that? That happened later. No no it happened earlier. There was but it kind of catapulted into something much more major at a later point because they wanted to use that

[00:03:43] to drive home other agendas. But yeah I think just an observer of society, observer why is this person so quirky? I think instead of art that observation of people and why they do the

[00:03:56] things was more intriguing to me than the art itself. And then it just happened to be where a lot of these other like what we call the progressives, Tayyab, Ram Kumar, Gaitonde all these artists that were Hussain's peers ended up having

[00:04:10] interactions with me at different points and just became something you know I mean it's not a status symbol at all at that point. There was no market because there was nothing. So it was

[00:04:20] just actually an 8 year old talking to a 70 year old and that was the age gap which just became something. How can you not be passionate about it when the people your pure group

[00:04:32] are 70 year old you know artists who are today the biggest names in Indian art. Art they respond to you are very curious because not many 8 year olds and 10 year olds would go up to them and

[00:04:42] try to talk to them about their work. So see it was different because there was no agenda so they would love to talk about their work. There was actually no market the only person

[00:04:51] that people pursued for an agenda was Hussain because Hussain was the only name. Yeah he was already a legend right. I mean total legend so I mean even my conversation with him was very different

[00:05:01] I remember going to him and telling him I don't want to know you when you're MF everybody knows you like Amitabh Bachchan and you know the who's who knew him as MF Hussain I was like I want

[00:05:11] to know you when you're Makbool you know the boy that actually started painting and that was this kind of interesting he was it was a move him also right. It was very strategic also

[00:05:21] to some degree you know it's like it's the marketing genius in me if I may say so myself which is like how I hook Hussain. I was smart. Yeah fully very cunning but it worked and I mean

[00:05:33] but the I mean the essence of it was there was an authenticity or just absolute adulation and love but you knew how to kind of you know get them get him in a way you know but

[00:05:45] Hussain for the longest time knew exactly what was going on with with me and with everybody else so in fact when I asked him for a drawing of his grandfather when I was eight

[00:05:55] he actually gave it to me when I was 28 years old not 28 sorry 24 years old. Okay actually putting him through the test of friendship. Absolutely. But listen the garden of time. The garden of time

[00:06:08] I was going to say that which is the Met Gala theme unlike people who buy art today because it's fashionable to buy art it's like buying a working bag you can you know boast

[00:06:18] about owning this work or that work with it as we know it's a different story it's he's really interested in art. But the Birkin bag and the Birkin bag actually has so much artistic value

[00:06:30] today which I never thought there was always a joke. Yeah but there was always this joke in the art circle so let's say there's the art world and there's society and there's people

[00:06:40] that can afford this kind of art and while you need them and there's a symbiotic kind of relationship it's also a love hate kind of relationship you're dying to make fun of the people

[00:06:52] who are also you know indulging in this because you have you hear weird things like I want to match the art with the color of my sofa. China's are the worst. I want flowers. Yeah. No so I'm

[00:07:02] saying like the Birkin it always used to be like you know there was a thing there are things that become things in the art world where the serious people would be like it's scoffeted

[00:07:11] it's almost like scoffeted but it's almost becomes a cliche where you say something like I rather buy a painting that like women would say this like I rather buy a painting than buy shoes

[00:07:19] and bags and that makes her either or either or because like oh I don't want shoes and bags I don't want jewelry I want to buy a painting I'm so hot cake that's you know that was a

[00:07:31] thing. I'm so silly now that's actually changed because Sardubbies and you know a lot of option houses internationally are selling limited edition bags and bags are making it to museums fashion is making it to museums fashion is you know lines are blurring actually in some ways

[00:07:46] where fashion and art are kind of merging with each other so I mean you know what we've scoffed at at one point is and you know it's like art is an investment the bag is an investment or art works

[00:07:59] because it's intellectual but the bag doesn't because there's no intellectual thinking to it or art works and is justified to spend top dollar on because it will appreciate the bag won't but those lines are all blurring and I think it's happened maybe post COVID no about Birkin

[00:08:15] since she brought up what is your personal take on the aesthetic of a Birkin forget its perceived value its market value and the entire marketing and see you're also a marketing name of sorts right

[00:08:28] I think it's marketing genius I mean obviously it's marketing genius we know that like they've managed to get everybody to want the bag without thinking about it by treating a very limited

[00:08:37] supply and making women desperate to get onto the list yeah I don't have an opinion on the bag from those I know who've carried it um I believe it's very heavy uh the big ones and I mean

[00:08:48] coming from your barbie episode they can't stand straight uh you know when you send their bodies are built in a way where they can barely hold themselves up that's so I believe the Birkin

[00:08:58] you always have some sort of a tilt I'm not sure that's great for your posture the Birkin and then I know a very big art collector who actually doesn't ever when she goes and shops for bags

[00:09:10] she doesn't actually carry the bag herself she makes her husband hold it so I asked her once I said why are you making your husband hold it she's saying he's going to have to carry it at a party

[00:09:18] right like I don't have to carry the bag it has to look good on him not me are you serious what an emancipated man yeah I don't know many husbands would be happy carrying the wise bag for

[00:09:27] like a lot you can say do you hold it for a minute but just carrying it is something wow I mean if I ask my husband to hold my bag for even a minute he acts like you know you're taking no my whole

[00:09:37] state if I have to take my lipstick out I mean if they carry if they carry a trophy they can carry the bag also well I guess yeah quite right okay I was curious about fashion as an investment

[00:09:51] you're speaking about bags as an investment art of course is an investment and now the Medgala coming up fashion has sort of crossed over into art so fashion as an investment how do

[00:10:01] you see that how do you proceed so I'm not I mean I don't have I'm clearly you can see I'm not the most fashionable person in the room but you're very that in your quiet quiet fashion quietly

[00:10:12] fashionable you know what is it called quiet luxury we could pull this off if there was no cameras but unfortunately I bet you simply go to laura piano in shop over there no no no uh it's too hot in Bombay most of the time it's not muscly

[00:10:31] yeah exactly uh yeah Peruvian Kashmir so yeah not laura piano kind of situation happening but talking about fashion and uh investment I think again like going back to the Birkin in terms of

[00:10:46] you know being a fashion item I think there are certain things I don't know if I don't know like honestly I really don't know if fashion is an investment I don't know there are people like

[00:10:56] like for example we heard uh you know I heard the other day Sonam Kapoor wanted to buy back her old looks that were lent to her because she wants to she said it was for sentimental reasons

[00:11:08] but I think she wants to also kind of have a look which makes sense I mean Audrey Hepburn has certain looks so right you know the great actresses and models of yeah you know uh yes like

[00:11:19] intellectual property right and I see merit in that I see merit in that I see merit in the fact that I mean I don't know about Sonam Kapoor but I mean and Audrey Hepburn dress or a Madeleine

[00:11:30] Mando dress yeah would be worth a lot I mean Amusey wanted uh there was a time where Andy Warhol made costumes uh so you had the soup cans which were pop culture uh reference campbell

[00:11:41] soup cans but the I think there are three dresses uh friend of mine has one of them in New York and then there's one really made of cans it's not made of cans it's just the print of

[00:11:51] can I see it's like a sleeveless kind of dress it's a shift it's a simple shift right um I don't know what shift is like a midi yeah yeah exactly yeah with sleeveless and it's a really simple dress

[00:12:04] and they framed it and kept it up uh I think the Met has won um when they had the pop culture pop art uh Met Gala yeah uh it was put up at that point so those are obviously very very valuable

[00:12:18] but I think it's more like costumes as investments rather than just dresses I don't know if like regular people buying fancy dresses is going to appreciate overtime I wanted to go back to

[00:12:29] our original question or what are the kinders uh why are people so I mean art as investment one can understand but is there a certain degree of pretentiousness uh involved in talking about

[00:12:41] art in art circles and wanting to be included there because it's it's considered high brawl and what are the kind of conversations one hear that these art parties um I don't want to sound judgmental

[00:12:52] but I am judgmental so we want you to sound judgmental yeah of course there's a huge amount of pretence around art and uh you know needing to have it and I think there's a lot of

[00:13:03] conversations that come where people come and say I mean I'm very also sentimental about this because I was very close to Hussein so when someone comes and says we don't like Hussein I'm like you

[00:13:11] can't afford Hussein you know let's let's let's face it like okay or you don't want to have because you know you're carrying this burkett in your living in a 30 000 square foot so maybe

[00:13:20] you can afford it but your priorities are different so um you hear that a lot like I don't want dead artists I don't want Hussein uh Hussein so boring it's my grandparents art um there's lots of competition you know there's lots of like poking needles into other collectors

[00:13:37] uh woody dolls yeah uh there's a lot of that happening so someone once came to me and they were like oh you like this artist like you know she's our grandmother's agent next thing you know I

[00:13:46] heard there was a topmost bidder in the auction uh who went up to two craws bidding for their artists work and never told me about it I just found out incidentally so uh there is a lot

[00:13:57] of competition there's people who you know obviously people come and ask me many very often who should we buy uh or what should we buy next and there's been people who come and

[00:14:07] you know it becomes a little bit of a club and someone will come and be like you have it I have it let's just buy a few more and then tell others before they get on the band wagon because

[00:14:15] let's keep this like a closely guarded secret so do you normally tell people no because you can buy it while it's cheaper and then you make it famous so then it'll become so you tell

[00:14:25] friends do you tell friends what they should buy I mean I tell them but I mean my new mantra is if I tell you I have to bill you so uh because you know I was alluding to you not telling me I know

[00:14:38] three years now but it's okay but I also believe that I mean you need time to buy this stuff you know you can't like a lot of people like a lot of things people like want to buy into everything

[00:14:51] quickly so suddenly you've made all your money in the last two years and COVID in the share market and you've bought a Ravi Varma and you want to believe like you've been this great cultured person

[00:15:00] for the last you know come down from a legacy of people who've you know got this work but you don't and it's okay people do that with jewelry people do that with you know uh costumes

[00:15:10] with art it's okay but you can't buy time and you can't buy everything in one year you know I mean these things you're building something over a period okay you know you may

[00:15:21] not have come from a family which appreciated art or you may not have bought it yourself at a time when it had no market for example you can start now but don't expect to build the whole collection

[00:15:32] this year you know build it over a period of time because you will grow as a person there's no way you're going to like what you bought everything in the same year so you buy it over a period of

[00:15:42] time I think because something very interesting we were chatting about before we started recording and you mentioned that we don't have a culture of building artists and the artists who were big

[00:15:55] 20 years ago nobody remembers them now what do you think we should do I mean I that really struck me as something I hadn't and why is it the way it is so I was talking about my

[00:16:05] physiotherapist to her oh yeah that's so interesting and you know I take it from granted that everybody knows who sent right like if you don't know any other artist of course you know who sent

[00:16:17] and because he was a hoarding you know film hoarding painter it's because he used to have tea on the streets it's because he walked barefoot it's because he never had a story by himself

[00:16:27] and he was I mean he did a film with Madhuri Dixit Madhuri Dixit was the top actress at that time so every single person in the country who was looking up and what looking forward to

[00:16:36] Madhuri's next film after Hamaab Ke Haikon happened to be Gajgamin which was Hussain's film so it's not only like strategic and smart and all of that but he was also a way to like how do I bring my art

[00:16:46] from a white cube space like a gallery and take it to the thing it was actually called culture of the streets uh the I think the production label of Hussain's was called culture of the

[00:16:55] streets going back to his own roots uh and things like that so I just assumed everybody knows who Hussain is and 10 years after I mean I'm like taking it for granted everyone knows who he is and

[00:17:08] my physio came home the other day and he was standing in front of the Hussain and he said you know in front of many paintings and he said are these valuables so I mean I didn't know what to

[00:17:20] see I was a little shy about this so I said I mean I just said I mean that's a Hussain exactly so I said this I mean that's a Hussain so he said what's that so I was heartbroken I mean I

[00:17:40] was any where my leg is broken but I was heartbroken so I was like uh you don't know who's said and then at some point I realized I was shaming him for not knowing who's saying so I should

[00:17:51] like sound down because it's not very culture of the streets for you know if I'm shaming somebody for not knowing the artist so anyway he went back home he came back he said you know I'm so sorry

[00:18:02] I'm standing in front of an original Hussain and I didn't even know the value of this greatness so um I said it's okay I mean you know I'm glad you know it now but I realized that he was 15

[00:18:15] when Hussain passed so if you're not really interested in art and they're not teaching us this in schools we all know who Van Gogh is because they have you know we know who Da Vinci

[00:18:25] we learn that in our schools but we won't learn about our own artists and the only road in our country I think from what I know is Amrita Shergill Maal yes there is no but if you go to Italy

[00:18:35] there's a Leonardo Da Vinci airport you go to Malaga there's a Picasso airport you know so they've celebrated culture all their lives but a lot of musicians and writers roads across india and

[00:18:48] after them but not painters when thinking road is called Chitraka Durandar Maal again I know this because my gps says in the Indian accent take right at Chitraka Durandar Maal she's penetrated my subconscious mind I didn't even know I know this thank god it's not called

[00:19:03] shaper Ali because this is your google prison shaper Ali road yeah we were talking earlier today about fashion and met Gala and Udit and I were trying to get the right pronunciation for shaper Ali

[00:19:15] yeah Sri in India is not not Siri in India is Sri in India I think you get it right okay so then moving on you know stepping outside of the world of art now moving towards

[00:19:33] your favorite popular culture icons of our time and when I say our time I mean of right now of the last few years because you see popular culture by virtue of social media now

[00:19:46] has expanded into our consciousness it's a it inhabits a much faster space in across populations and demographics than it did before social media so talk a little bit about that because advertising has given you insight into the human side into human mind and human psychology

[00:20:05] that would be interesting to know what you think of it because earlier today you were saying that I most easily recognize icons of the 90s but then I know that you are quite clued in about

[00:20:18] my clued in is to the extent of what my instagram algorithm that's enough that's why only my instagram algorithm self i'm watching killer whales and that's my popular culture but otherwise javid shows up a lot okay so let me tell what do you think about her you know

[00:20:34] I didn't I have to say I was very judgmental in words you know her and I thought she's another rakhi saavan then you know things like that but what's interesting is she's become cool to like

[00:20:48] that's why you like her that's why I like okay that's why I started liking okay then you start realizing that you know like for example ori right there's something silly about it it's not

[00:20:59] cool to like it's not cool to like ori but you have to accept the fact that he's a marketing genius oh he is no doubt about right so with urfi also the thing is you know I think it's like

[00:21:11] you are so used to all you know there's so much propaganda of what is fashion or there's so much propaganda of who is famous or what an airport look is that you're I bought into that propaganda

[00:21:23] of what it is but if you really look at the alternative voices which people call walk and sometimes it's too walk but when you listen to that alternate voice even in your own head you

[00:21:35] realize that someone like urfi is actually gaining popularity for being authentic and in a world where we are not authentic and she's creative right like there's there's something now you realize that actually she's doing what hussein did right because she's making copies of

[00:21:53] chaperrelly dresses and what are the lungs for example you know which chaperrelly made she's made with lace and with something else but hands to cup her breast exactly so everybody knows that aesthetic because of urfi not because of chaperrelly you say that urfi is an artist of

[00:22:14] sorts you know in terms of performance using her body as a canvas she's become I think I think you know absolutely in terms of there's a lot of it's a lot of it is like derivative

[00:22:28] which is fine I think because I mean every there's no big designers are doing that exactly everything is there yeah big designers are doing it on a global scale they're popping global designers I mean chenelle started the quilted bag now so many other designers do it

[00:22:44] or we saw that famous Indian designer we were talking about form home not quilted so when I was there I was like it's this and it's like it's really expensive mattress I was like what is it chenelle just because it's quilted

[00:22:59] we were about mattress shopping individually but we'd be change notes on that also right so yeah moving back to urfi the fact that she you know art was fashion was supposed to be traditionally a turf of the elite it's an indulgence only the elite can enjoy and now

[00:23:17] urfi is not elite at all and you know I don't even know what kind of tailor she's going to to create I think she's stitching them herself I think she's doing it right it's very difficult

[00:23:28] to stitch some of those things together I mean now I'm sure you know like everything else that gains popularity people start joining the bandwagon but from what I understand earlier when these airport looks one thing and celebrities see there's something authentic because

[00:23:40] celebrities we believe call the paparazzi and say come we are leaving somewhere right this girl is not even going anywhere she's just landing up at the airport and going back home and calling a few

[00:23:50] people who listen but there's something sweet about it you know she doesn't like she's not pretending to travel first class from some you know some gate of the airport where everybody's called to see

[00:24:00] where they are going and how they are going and pretend like they're not interested but it's been hard to live with that kind of ridicule she's put up with a lot of ridicule even from

[00:24:08] people like you and us but I have to say I have to say there are very famous designers the top designers in this country like Abu Jani Sandeep Khosla who like kudos to them because actually

[00:24:21] they've taken her in a music video and they've recognized her from these little moments and yes we know that there's always you know you're always leveraging and it's always symbiotic there's always something they are also getting out of it which is fine because they're getting

[00:24:36] you know a certain recognition from her audience but it's not easy to you know take an outlier you know take them under your wing make them into a certain which absolutely they have sort of

[00:24:49] changed their profile in a sense they have legitimized this little instagram game that she was you know doing just to get some eyeballs well that's also very dangerous because what she was doing was street style and individualistic style the moment she gets tied up with the

[00:25:04] designer of the level of Abu Jani Sandeep Khosla where does her individuality go? Absolutely I agree with that like Alia Bhatt look at what Alia Bhatt is wearing at the Met Gala right we were talking

[00:25:15] about it before this podcast she she's shown up in a saree by Sabesh Hachi right and as lovely as a saree either as lovely as she's looking you can clearly see like you said earlier today

[00:25:28] that it looks like it wasn't her idea to wear this but I think with somebody like Orfi because she is quite her own person I doubt that somebody will be able to you know straight

[00:25:39] jacket her and put her in something you never know see like going back again like we were talking about the lines of blood like there are commission works by artists you know you might go to a certain

[00:25:47] artist and say I want to have a blue work to match my blue sofa and the artists will do it they will do it they will a lot of them will do it not all of them I mean a lot of them

[00:25:56] airport artists airport artists even the bigger artists even the bigger artists but that's because of the genius of Rajiv Sethi I think who's the architect of the airport which one Bombay airport yeah he's actually I'm not talking about Mumbai airport I think there's

[00:26:14] some very interesting artworks there yeah but Delhi airport I see that there was some very big ticket names from the art world who then they've just filled up walls after walls with

[00:26:23] their work and it's all the same work is just bigger in size now and Rajiv and volume and that sort of makes it look like a commission project that was considered not essentially

[00:26:36] because of being part of a possible yeah but that's also a thing like it looks like a commercial decision if I may say so nothing wrong with that either yeah yeah it could be but there's also

[00:26:49] this whole take off you know again people wanting to make art public so that's something that you know where you know why should someone who's totally not in you these people are not going to go to an

[00:27:01] art gallery or a museum so make the airport into a museum but I love what they've done with Bombay airport when I when they fly it lands and you walk past all those paintings every single

[00:27:12] time I enjoy them yeah when somebody like an Ulfi if she is going to be working or collaborating with designers of the level of Abu Jani Sandeep Osla she's going to be intimidated

[00:27:25] is she going to start wearing what they say and how does that reflect on what she comes up with later you know I think Ulfi like any artist and I'm using artists in a broader term not

[00:27:39] painters or you know I'm using it as a as a person she's very clever because she's taken the model of various whether it's her fashion it's derivative from certain fashion designers we already discussed that I think her entire persona is what Lady Gaga did with the

[00:28:00] monsters and the fans I think they were called monsters little monsters or something they were called so I think but if you look at Lady Gaga she became so known for her radical fashion

[00:28:11] and of course a lot of fashion designers took her on board when she signed the national anthem for America she was not dressed you know in meatloaf yeah so it was she had no radical makeup

[00:28:25] and you know things like that there was a fashion designer that you know styled her and and dressed her up but some and she's become a lot more sober in the in the recent times

[00:28:37] compared to how she had started and I think that's just evolution I think also it's it comes but she would have not got that kind she wouldn't have sustained if bigger figures had not kind of

[00:28:48] taken her up in my opinion you can't because then it's a trend that's an interesting perspective I mean she was invited to the Met Gala I think Lady Gaga so isn't I didn't know that maybe they

[00:28:58] found her too shallow shallow you know that song you can sing thanks thanks just so that tell us what it is like to be a fly on the wall at some of these parties the art parties

[00:29:12] and the art week the art week okay so I have a friend I think you know who she is but she always says that these parties are not as glamorous as people think they are because she's like

[00:29:24] a sub-cardi-cupry my other parties are much more fashionable they're fancy bags and don't people have this notion that art is you know quite kind of glamorous it's not and I can you

[00:29:36] hear funny conversations you hear a lot of who should I buy who have bought guess who I have on my wall I'm very discreet I'm very private you know but look at my wallpaper on my phone yeah yeah

[00:29:48] like look at what I bought in auction what did you think of that work that sold for 10 crores I mean who do you think could have bought it yeah yeah yeah it's like a way of like

[00:29:58] segueing into you know because let's face it to a great degree I think art is also like any other retail therapy it's filling some void in all our lives so I think that that is also needed to be

[00:30:12] projected like everything else it's needed to be projected but do you think all of them are feeling void so they're just filling walls yeah I think it's definitely voids the fact that

[00:30:23] they have so many walls that they have to fill also some void only but my dad had a very interesting take on that he used to say that are you going to this say Sabha Wala's exhibition or

[00:30:33] something and I would say no no it's too far and then I can't afford it then I'll feel really bad and it does happen to me when you see a beautiful painting you want to badly only feel so stirred

[00:30:41] and so upset and you're like I don't know if I want to spend that kind of money and I could genuinely not afford it so it wasn't even like I don't want to spend this money I

[00:30:49] didn't have the money to spend and he told me I don't understand what is enjoying art got to do with ownership lovely very important what is enjoying anything got to do with ownership

[00:30:59] I have another friend who once came and told me that you know a lot of people come to me and tell me he's the next MF Hussain or he's the next Subodh Gupta and she says so when they become

[00:31:11] Hussain or Subodh Gupta come to me I have a lot of money you can't eat a mango raw which is so excellent I love it so there's lots of this kind of conversation it's fun there's obviously serious conversation that happens as well you don't know but yeah and

[00:31:26] that's usually it happens like while saying bye in the driveway like you know little bit okay by the way the cerebral leg you know just you want to eat them with a good good it's like my gossip about somebody at the end he's a sweet person yeah exactly

[00:31:39] but you know she's gone through so much in life so it's that little boilerplate disclaimer absolute not every artist is going to become a big ticket artist but how much of becoming

[00:31:50] a big ticket artist also has to do with the right people backing you and not merely your talent so I'm asking you two questions you can take your time to answer so the serious answer to that

[00:31:59] is an artist should not be making work thinking they're gonna make it big that's not the reason artists make work you can become any other profession thinking that in 10 years time

[00:32:10] I'll become this there's a hope to do it but actually the hope of an artist I think the most serious answer if you're a serious artist is you don't care about the audience the audience can

[00:32:19] come in 200 years I mean van go never sold a single word right or sold a new one but how do you pay of bills there's a practical you know there's a struggle and that struggle comes in the work

[00:32:27] that's the serious answer the lighter answers they become graphic designers so you know they design a set or they you know like any other job there's a side hustle I mean there's so many

[00:32:39] struggling models that have served at McDonald's and mop the floor and I mean that's just you know when you want to be something that's that's where you kind of kind of go with it it's not so much

[00:32:50] about second which was which was that how much going beyond your talent how much of where you reach as an artist your market value as an artist has to do with the right people backing

[00:33:01] you in the right people endorsing you and not merely a function of your talent most of it is so I mean in today's day and age most of it is that hasn't that always been there

[00:33:12] you had patron of the arts from centuries I mean somebody picks up a good artist even the classical and the Renaissance era you had patrons all the time you have patrons but at the end of the

[00:33:23] day the patrons support the art here it's it's not the artist is not relying on the paper so right from back in the day when Michael Angelo and Da Vinci were painting the church was

[00:33:34] a patron so you know you need you need opportunity and you need a stage to kind of showcase and when you have that it's amazing but do you paint for that reason no did they become famous for that

[00:33:45] reason no but they got a platform where someone noticed it and maybe I don't know how famous I think from what I know is they were very well respected because artists were respected I think

[00:33:57] at that point of time the fame and the money came only much later I don't think it came his work stands out he didn't he didn't reach this level of fame because he marketed himself

[00:34:10] we are talking about today people resorting to you know being seen at the right parties hobgobbing with the right curators in galleries and marketing themselves a lot of it is curator speak a lot of it is and I'm not saying every artist but there's a lot of

[00:34:25] conversation that seems to be based on certain narratives or certain kind of like you know there are artists who say we never made like you know in the 60s and 70s they were making female female artists who making female forms because that's what they related to but they

[00:34:41] were not feminists now that narrative has changed she's a feminist painter you know she's like no I'm just a painter I'm not a feminist you know my my conversation is not trying to

[00:34:54] make a point on feminism but it fits a curatorial language that is about feminism and therefore it works and therefore it's you know uplifted the same thing happens with queer art the same thing

[00:35:04] happens with black art these are hashtags you know black lives matter and love is love and you know the whole me too movement and these three groups you see that in a lot of shows so it's

[00:35:16] like it's a chicken and egg story where it's like is the art reflecting society or society reflecting the art and how much does curatorial gatekeeping work in this that's a better gatekeeping to have because at least it's coming from a place which is intellectual and it's coming

[00:35:31] from a place where people have studied and they're experts the gatekeeping I'm worried about is the one that happens in the fancy skyscrapers of Bombay that gatekeeping is more worrying because they'll buy some upcoming artists like I said you don't believe in the older artists so

[00:35:45] they've dismissed those artists and some you know new artists you know considered the so you know you have this great this is like the share market tip-hat-tip-hat yeah exactly you know when we were both together in and everybody's clever in a bull run you know in a

[00:36:01] in a like no one's gone wrong um and and these same skyscrapers like the conversations we hear on the 25th and 50th and 80th floor these days is uh you know the voodoo pinholes that we were

[00:36:14] talking about they don't stop at actual uh pinning these dolls it stops at pinning the painting so you'll see someone trying to scratch a painting yeah yeah I've seen it oh really I've

[00:36:23] seen people like oh my god but is this you know is this normal and they'll use that as an excuse to try yeah yeah there's there's things which is um you know a lot of people are like oh but do

[00:36:33] you think that works real like it's it's like I would I would that's so it's slandering you know so someone has I'm not saying it's a lot of times even way back in the day someone

[00:36:44] had invited me home knowing I'm a big fan of of art and I think they knew that they had a fake work on their wall and they just thought that oh you know you come and let's see I mean you know if you can

[00:36:55] pull it all humbug it can be pulled it off like it's a oh was it testing you whether you could this I'm not like actually an expert where they were really testing me I think they just

[00:37:05] thought that they can get some friends kid to come and say haha nice so the friend thinks it's and they'll also get the confidence to show it more often if they say that somebody who's been into

[00:37:15] this who's so passionate about art couldn't tell but you know it's similar to again I personally am really against work it's not just am I neutral about it but it's similar to some woman saying

[00:37:27] I think she carries a fake bucket this whole thing of envy it's envy that guys art is fake so I think it comes it really does stem from that and I mean some of it might be because see if you're

[00:37:40] not informed and you're buying old old material in in today's day and age there's a chance if you've not done proper research yeah you could follow the wrong hands like you know I mean it's

[00:37:51] supposed to fake market like I mean there's a lot in the news that guy remember who some head of a company he bought fake artwork 18 craws or something I thought yeah I believe there was

[00:38:05] something that happened from some middle man in Rajasthan yeah it always comes from the Havilis because no one can track the Havilis that's right you can say all the old work has come

[00:38:14] from Havilis that you don't have to track it no one knows who these royal families are I mean every family Rajasthan's a royal family yeah anyone can come and say and even a flat is a Havilis so

[00:38:25] so I mean if you found a painting in a flat in Jaipur then it's come from the royal family so I mean you know I'm not dissing everybody in general in that sense but yeah there is a lot of a lot of

[00:38:39] like one big alarm bell that goes off as it comes from the royal family of XYZ that you know if it becomes a little bit like a little bit of a warning sign that there's

[00:38:51] something amiss because chances are you were a big collector like was this royal family buying five of the top artists in the country today in the 50s and 60s unlikely so I mean slightly also

[00:39:07] but like it's chances are it will not happen what do you think of wealthy Indians and I find this very interesting it makes for great entertainment it's really a great aesthetic easy on the eye

[00:39:19] Indians who are now actually partaking in the international fashion scene and you know wearing big labels walking the the Khan or the red the red carpet which is not always red at the Metcala

[00:39:37] what do you think about that I think it's great I think India's having a moment I think again I think this whole Ambani culture of international celebrities coming to India

[00:39:50] you know just I mean Rihanna or Zendaya I mean you know one would think they don't need it but I mean look at the number of followers and if everything is based on followers look at the

[00:39:59] number of followers overnight that have added Zendaya on Instagram right like and what that does for her brand endorsements and things like that so I think it works again I really believe that it works both ways and you know while we might still have a fixation that going

[00:40:14] abroad is the ultimate litmus test to international fame but I mean I don't know because when Deepika Padukone walks on the Oscar to present her things are very big deal but there's still Aladdin music going on in the background so they've exoticized her even when she's come in

[00:40:29] her amazing Louis Vuitton dress looking like anyone else over there but they still she's still the exotic mystic beauty from India who's come with the flying carpet music coming at the background I think it's again it's like not knowing where to place I was telling in our last

[00:40:43] podcast we were talking about how when whenever I buy foundation for my skin from outside of India they always suggest a wrong color for me because they don't understand where to place this

[00:40:55] skin tone they know black they know white okay and for a yellow or whatever brown mixed skin tone I always come back with a foundation that makes me look like I've sat in the sand for

[00:41:07] days and probably got on sand book so it's like not knowing where to place so somebody sitting with the music the department with the background musical score wouldn't know what to play with her

[00:41:20] you know it's like having a half an eclectic guest at your home and not knowing whether you should play you know Pandit Ravi Shankar's music or you should play play something more contemporary so I think it's interesting because I mean there's something happening in the world

[00:41:34] where India is being recognized and a lot of foreigners are being recognized so in fact the Venice Biennale the current Venice Biennale as we speak is entirely titled foreigners everywhere and this time you have more Indian representation even in the painting and art and tapestry field

[00:41:51] on a global platform like it's never been seen before when you are representing at the Venice Biennale you have to be invited right the curator who's appointed for the Biennale at that point of

[00:42:01] time has to think of what fits their curatorial note so if the curatorial note or the curatorial title is foreigners everywhere they're looking for um society you know representation for people that have been neglected over time so it could have been women it could have been queer

[00:42:21] groups it could have been black artists it could be various people so there's a certain what I'm saying is it's good because the new narrative is so local if you may say like there's

[00:42:32] such a um it's not about India going abroad as much I think anymore as much as it's just everyone is learning to accept or needing to accept everybody from all quarters so I don't

[00:42:44] think it's an India story I think India fits that narrative of you know places that have not been recognized suddenly being recognized on a global platform it works for designers it works for

[00:42:55] curators it works for a new narrative more than that okay for example now the ambani wedding right I was shortly before that I was watching a video where a guy on instagram a real where a guy is

[00:43:07] going around asking people in the US what is the capital of India and everybody's clueless and he says I'm going to give you 60 dollars cash as a cash prize if you figure it guess it

[00:43:19] nobody can finally one guy says some techie type guys in New Delhi now was he Indian no he probably worked with an Indian he was a techie yeah that's all he was he was he was an Indian yeah and now

[00:43:31] I was in California and my taxi driver was talking to me about the Cucas had a really big wedding didn't you recently wow so this is not just like let's also recognize a foreign country I think

[00:43:44] that our outing right our international outing has become not so much about us trying to be there it's just that we have it and after the ambani wedding especially an NMACC opening a lot of people

[00:43:59] have suddenly opened their eyes to well India is no longer a country where there are only slums people who had never visited India there's a Taj Mahal or there's a slums right there was no

[00:44:08] in there was no other India for them and it didn't shoot the narrative to but think about it you know your question earlier was about Indians abroad but the way people are looking at us abroad and not

[00:44:18] for the content we're putting but because Zendaya came you know that's why that that I see that's what it is because everyone then America is following Zendaya so suddenly but that is how

[00:44:30] they saw images of that right like the ambani wedding exactly the reach there was because Rihanna was here it was whether it's the best performance or the worst performance or whether she was told

[00:44:40] or not told is a different thing but the reason they know about it is because Rihanna was here no but the reason see Rihanna has come and performed in India very often and not Rihanna

[00:44:49] many international artists have come and performed in India before this why has India not received the kind of spotlight or limelight that it received now in the past one to two years it's

[00:44:58] because of the scale at which it's eye-watering the scale at which wealth is being you know showcase people for people they can't get over it they can't wrap their minds around it otherwise people will know about India they're enough people who come and perform in concerts

[00:45:14] and so I think that's amazing I think it's really cool because I'm really tired to bone about people thinking India is just slums and in there no sense of style and passion

[00:45:23] I think that's all really changing you know we did have a time when there was so much wealth in India we had the Maharajas we had the Maranis who were like the doyens of fashion internationally

[00:45:33] sure you had Gayatri Teviya mother before in Brazil so there was fashion there was that so I think maybe there was a lull in the perception of Indians being wealthy and yeah between the independence to now I think the same thing is coming back again but we were

[00:45:51] at one point I'm considered fashionable it is but I think we were saying Kiran because the thing is at that time the royal family and the royal costumes were making it that's what I'm saying

[00:46:02] the Cartier Association but the content of India was making it global now Indians are merging with what their fashion is you know the person is becoming more famous than what that's I'm

[00:46:13] saying what is the legacy of a future generation like what are we living with it feeling like we are actually always in costume it literally feels like that like Hiramandi yeah exactly as somebody who observes people and who has an interest in you know

[00:46:29] anthropology and how do you see this current generation placing themselves globally given that everything is now one global universe I think everything is one global universe because of a platform like Instagram right so you don't even have to be invited or ask you can create your

[00:46:52] own content so you're already global you know and it's interesting Andy Warhol had said I'm gonna paraphrase but he said something about 15 seconds of fame you know and now people will eventually I think start begging for 15 minutes or 15 seconds of anonymity right because nobody is anonymous

[00:47:10] I mean you said I mean I'm very happy if you said you tried to google me and couldn't find much I mean mission accomplished because I believe it or not have removed cover stories from Facebook and not

[00:47:20] because of something to hide but I just don't want to be as much out there it's it's you know without being asked you know without trying you're out there so you have to really try for that kind

[00:47:32] of anonymity today and I think how they place themselves I don't know what will come in the future I think a lot of people will want to be quieter I think it's cyclical I think it's like

[00:47:44] where you know there's people in the current world who really believe that their professions their careers they're famous they have followers they have iPhones coming into their houses because they have a certain number of followers they really believe this is the new age but I read somewhere

[00:48:03] the last stage before being tacky has been trendy so who sent you that you sent it yes clearly I need it's a famous quote yeah it was actually a Karl Lagerfeld quote that said

[00:48:15] trendy is the last stage before tacky I think that is a very big take home for everybody trying to stay on trend the younger generation especially I know I'm never going to stay on trends yeah

[00:48:26] I'm so not trendy myself I mean everyone's tacky now so if you want to keep up with the Joanie you're all trendy last season