Why Most People Should NOT Get a Dog | Canine Expert Shirin Dhabhar

[00:00:00] I think in 30 years, the one change that I always say is I've seen, 30 years ago when a person had a dog, we called them a dog owner. Now you can't even say that. That's like a taboo word. You have to say pet parent and that's the whole shift in itself. You know, it's nice that we call them family and all of that. But sometimes we take the anthropomorphic angle a little too far. You know, we say furry babies and all of that and say what you like, my baby, my John, my darling. We say that.

[00:00:28] But I always say when it comes to working with them or understanding with them, see them for what they are, a whole different species. Because otherwise you're not doing them any favors. You're doing yourself a favor. So that's I would say the biggest change that we've really seen over the years. So who are the people who should definitely not get dogs? Lots of people. I know I'm one of them. Admittedly, it is a big thing. It's the other guys.

[00:00:54] First step is everybody in the house should want a dog. If one person wants and three don't want, rethink the whole thing because that will create a rift in the house. Two is, you know, a lot of people say, I have so much money and I have such a big house, so I'll go get a dog. That's not what your dog needs. Your dog needs your time. So if you don't have time, then don't get a dog because that's, I think, the worst thing you can do.

[00:01:17] So get a dog when you have the time for the dog. They need your time to play with them. They need your time to spend just with them. You need to spend time taking them to the vet if they're sick. Exercise them. There's so much you need to do with them because eventually they become like family. We are a tech podcast. Are there things changing in the world of technology? Huge. Yes. Yes. We have lots of stuff. Lots of these gadgets which help you when you leave your dog alone.

[00:01:43] You can now talk to your dog through these gadgets and you have these little collars which allow you to speak and your dog can hear you. And then you have these cameras where now you can watch what your dog's doing. Everybody today has left their dog alone at home with a camera watching to see what the dog's up to. You have all of that. Then you have food dispensers that are automated. They can release food at various intervals. Your dog feels entertained.

[00:02:06] So she put out this post called Bark GPT and it was like, you know, it was just kind of an argument and counter-argument that, you know, your dog will tell you all the breeds that are there but will not be able to tell you this thing. It was an April Fool joke. Correct. So I suddenly thought, wow, I mean, there's something going on here. And I said, no, no, no. Yeah. But many people wrote to me and said, where can I buy it? I think I should have just been clever, sold it for a lot of money, sold some rubbish and said, you're taking the money and ran.

[00:02:35] Sharan, tell us a few fun things that you've experienced in the last 30 years when it comes to human beings and dogs. Oh my God. Human beings are, I don't know what to say. I better not say much about it. I would say animals are way higher and not just putting dogs and putting all animals above human beings. But we've had some funny requests. We get a lot of funny people. I had this lady once and she had a very, very sweet golden retriever, very sweet dog, clever dog.

[00:03:05] And she came to me, you know, we did a bit of training. And then one day she said, you know, we were talking. I said, your dog's so clever. He can do literally anything. So she paused and she looked at me and then she said, you can teach him anything. I said, well, reasonably. She said, can you teach my dog to push my mother-in-law off the balcony? Oh my God. And they must have stayed like on the 20th floor or something. And, you know, I've never been asked that. So for a moment I said, well, how would I train that? Yes, that's an interesting thought.

[00:03:34] Because it's pretty doable, right? You have to teach the dog to jump, to push, whatever. And then for a moment I paused and I said, well, maybe I don't want to do that.

[00:04:14] Shake paw. Good boy. Now high five. Excellent job. You are such a good helper. Welcome to another episode of Three Techies Banter. I'm going to give you a little bit of a background about our guest today before we kind of formally introduce her. So 30 years back when she started on this journey, she was told that women cannot train dogs. Cut to today.

[00:04:40] She is the only one in Asia and one of nine in the world who has been accredited by the Kennel Club of England. So she's like right up there, just one of very, very few, a top of her profession. She's been a trainer to some of the best canine professions in the world. She's got her own institute. She's done splendid work in the field of assist dogs and canine behavior.

[00:05:09] She was involved in search and rescue in the Bhuj earthquake along with dogs that she trained or took along. She's been the recipient of the president of India's first ladies award. And so she's I think she's kind of been the pioneer in her field across genders. I think it'd be very wrong and unfair to say that she was the first only woman to do it. I think she was probably the first individual who did this. And yet she remains completely grounded.

[00:05:38] Her love for dogs, canines, pets, animals is very, very evident. And she's almost always very, very accessible and reachable. We are very, very delighted and privileged to have Shirin Dhabhar on our show. Welcome. Welcome, Shirin. That's such a lovely introduction. Thank you. I was so impressed.

[00:06:00] I was just going to say that, you know, this episode had to happen because the amount of love Samiran has for his dogs. We are constantly, I mean, I don't know how many times he's worn his dog father t-shirts. Yeah, yeah. Even I've seen it. Things like that. So, yes, this had to happen. Yes. For our listeners, because we've spoken about pet and tech. And tech for pets and all of that. So, absolute pleasure having you here. Thank you.

[00:06:32] And I know Samiran talked about 30 years ago, but what got you into this is what I want to know, Shirin. So, sometimes I always say to people, we don't choose our professions, they choose us. And I think in my case, that's what happened. I've always loved animals, grown up in a home with pets and dogs. So, it was very natural for me to want to gravitate into a field where I could work with them and, you know, learn and enjoy and do all of that.

[00:06:57] So, when the opportunity arose for me about 30 years ago, I went to England. I studied for four years and that's when I came back. I mean, little did I know that it didn't exist here or anything. I just started doing it because it was what I liked to do. And that's how it started. Whenever I felt that, you know, there's a need for something, I just did it. That's how it really came about. So, 30 years back, cut to now, today, there is so much more awareness about it.

[00:07:24] There's so much more acceptance and there's so many more young people who are deciding not to have children but are deciding to have pets. What have you seen as a change and where do you think young dog parents struggle the most? Well, they struggle a lot with a lot of things. I think in 30 years, the one change that I always say is I've seen 30 years ago when a person had a dog, we called them a dog owner.

[00:07:53] Now, you can't even say that. That's like a taboo word. You have to say pet parent and that's the whole shift in itself. You know, it's nice that we call them family and all of that. But sometimes we take the anthropomorphic angle a little too far. You know, we say furry babies and all of that and say what you like. My baby, my John, my darling. We say that. But I always say when it comes to working with them or understanding with them, see them for what they are, a whole different species. Because otherwise, you're not doing them any favors.

[00:08:23] You're doing yourself a favor. So that's, I would say, the biggest change that we've really seen over the years. Yes. And do you still feel that people are, so I remember having a conversation and somebody told me, look, they are dogs at the end of the day and they belong to the wolf family. And you have to understand how they eat, drink, behave, etc. And you can't expect them to work on your circadian rhythm.

[00:08:49] Their rhythm is very different from the human rhythm. But I don't know if that's... They do have their own circadian rhythm as well. Correct. That's what. So I was told that, you know, most people tend to make them follow the human circadian rhythm. That's where we have mistakes. Which is, it is all wrong. That's where it's a mistake. So just want to get a sense of what you think people should know about dogs as pets. So the first thing, like I said, is it's not your human baby.

[00:09:17] I'm sorry to break a lot of hearts for that. But that's what it is. And honestly, if you were to ask the dogs, they'd be horrified if they thought that we were their parents. Right. Look at the dogs. Some of them are so good looking. And then look at the humans they live with. The dog's going to say, you, I can't be yours. I'm so handsome. And look at you all. You're not even good looking. But jokes apart, I mean, just see them for what they are dogs. They have different needs. They have different thoughts. They have different behaviors. And that's all.

[00:09:46] It doesn't take a lot to just understand them for themselves. And that bridges the gap. When that communication gap is there, where we keep seeing them as human and human and understand them as human, that's where the misunderstandings arise. And then problems, fear issues, aggression issues. Oh, he bites me. Oh, he doesn't listen to me when I call him. Because it comes from that lack of communication. So, isn't it one of the things we have seen with our dogs? You know, whatever our dog is held at just in our house.

[00:10:16] We have friends visiting. The friends, kids, they're all happy playing. Yeah. And they say, mommy, mommy, daddy, daddy, I want a dog. You know, and then off they go. Yeah. You know what? At least we have started saying that. See, listen, if you want a dog, if you, you want a dog, then you come to my house, stay for one week, take care of my dog. And then you will have. Excellent. Yes. You will have earned the right to have a dog. Because it's not your parents, right? But so I wanted to understand, you know, who are the people who should never get dogs?

[00:10:45] You know, because, you know, this thing is like, unfortunately with COVID, you know, this has become like a emotional crutch also, right? Yes. You have adopted, you have picked up strays, you bought and all of that. Yeah. But then you have abandonment issues. Correct. And of course, it doesn't help that you have movies like Betho In and All and the, you know, Orange Pug, you know, it just becomes a fashion of the time, you know. So who are the people who should definitely not get dogs? Lots of people. I know I'm one of them. Admitting it is a big thing.

[00:11:15] It is. First step is everybody in the house should want a dog. If one person wants and three don't want, rethink the whole thing. Because that will create a rift in the house. Two is, you know, a lot of people say, I have so much money and I have such a big house, so I'll go get a dog. That's not what your dog needs. Your dog needs your time. So if you don't have time, then don't get a dog. Because that's, I think, the worst thing you can do. So get a dog when you have the time for the dog. They need your time to play with them.

[00:11:44] They need your time to spend just with them. You need to spend time taking them to the vet if they're sick. Exercise them. There's so much you need to do with them because eventually they become like family. And if you don't have that time, so somebody says, I go to work at 8 in the morning, come back at 8 at night. Well, then maybe don't really go getting a dog. Or if you want a dog, go get a 7, 8-year-old dog who's happy to just, you know, be at home, doesn't need so much exercise.

[00:12:09] And I think that's a good thing because shelters are full of, you know, geriatric dogs that are just looking for a good home, a warm meal. And leave me alone. I don't need too much exercise. So I think that's a nice win-win. But I've known people who work like 12 hours a day and then go get a puppy. And puppies are like a handful. How do you have time for that dog then, right? So if you don't have time, then think again.

[00:12:34] So I think the follow-up question to this then is that the other thing that we constantly see is this breed selection. You know, that, of course, it is everybody wants the biggest and whatever dog, you know, or whatever you read about. Or then you take a small, whatever is it. But, I mean, it's a known fact that most of these breeds are not suited for India. And even if they are, then, you know, there have to be some precondition. You have to do a lot more to make them.

[00:13:04] So, I mean, so how do people choose if they choose? How do they make that choice? So I think it's not just about dogs in our country. Everything in our countries, we love the foreign things. We love the foreign food and we love the foreign brands for clothes. It's all that. And it's not just India. We see it in all countries. Other countries also like to have foreign breeds in their country. So one thought process is that. Two is what's influenced your thoughts to get a dog. If when you were young, you watched, say, 101 Dalmatians and then you fell in love.

[00:13:34] Then when you're 30 years old and you can have a dog, you're still going to want that Dalmatian only. Then nothing is going to change your mind because that's the dog of your dreams. Or that's the dog you've thought of or, you know, dwelt on or all of that. So then nobody gets to change their mind. And most people just have a thought process. This is the look I want. This is the kind of dog I want. This is what I've seen my neighbor has. And I think I like that.

[00:13:57] And so that's how that's I think that's what influences people a lot about what breed they will choose for themselves. So what is this whole craze about getting huskies and all of these crazy? Huskies are so good looking. You can't deny that. They're gorgeous dogs. I think everybody wants a husky because they're so good looking. But here's the thing. It's not just about the looks or any of that. It's just what the dog was bred to do.

[00:14:24] If you can't give that to the dog, then he's not going to be a very happy dog. There's a difference in a dog that's surviving and a thriving dog. So I would say a husky would survive in Bombay. Where do they get to do what they were bred to do? That's in their DNA. That's in their genetics. And if you don't give them that, then they just feel incomplete. So that's an important thing. So where people get huskies, I mean, why they get it is because you can't deny it's a gorgeous looking dog.

[00:14:53] So which are the best dogs for, let's say, a city like Bombay if one had to choose a dog to? So like I say, it's not about the city. It's what you living in the city can give your dog. So I know people who live here who take that dog every day to the race course and give the dog the exercise it needs. Then they play with their dog and they spend time with the dog. God, they can keep any breed literally that they want because they're putting in that time and effort. So that's really what I think matters.

[00:15:20] But if you don't have that and your dog's going to get two walks a day on just a concrete pavement, sleep all day in an AC room, eat some fancy meals or whatever, then maybe we need to rethink what kind of dog. Another whole, I think the thought process is keeping Indian breeds and Indy breeds and all of that. Here's what I'm not comfortable with. If you were going to get a Rottweiler or you were getting a German Shepherd, you do so much homework and you'd research it and you'd say, I need to be prepared for this, this, this. They're clever dogs. They're working dogs.

[00:15:50] And then when we get Indy dogs, we just take them for granted. Just say, I've rescued you from the road. So be very grateful and live happily in my home with nothing much. And that's not fair because they're clever dogs. They're probably cleverer than your Rottweilers and your German Shepherds. So if you just keep them at home and say, now be there and don't need to think and you don't need to do anything. I think that's unfair to them. Just to treat them as be grateful for everything. So we're not going to put in much effort for you.

[00:16:18] That's where a lot of problems arise because they're, like I said, they need mental stimulation. They need mental challenges. And when they don't catch that, then they tend to be maybe naughty or destructive and can create trouble for you. Another thing that I see a lot of dog parents worry about is the food that has to be given to dogs. Oh my God, that's a huge thing. Today, even with human beings, right? It's just so much of change. Yeah.

[00:16:45] So what, you know, are there do's and don'ts when it comes to food for dogs? The first do I just say is one, common sense. That's it. Just end it at that. That's lacking, Shirin. I mean, what to do now? Yeah. So that's the issue, right? Common sense is missing. And every dog is an individual. Just like say you and me. Maybe what works for you won't work for me necessarily. Just do what's good for your dog. Keep some common sense. Avoid the harmful stuff. Don't overdo anything.

[00:17:15] And do what works for your dog. That's it. Some, for a lot of people, packaged dog food works really well. And they say, my dog thrives on that. This is what I can do. And for some people, they go to the extent of cooking two hours a day for their dog. That's what they can do. And their dog will eat quail eggs and their dog will drink camels. I mean, food that I've never seen in my life. I know dogs that eat kangaroo meat. And duck and all of that. And I'm like, wow, very good for you.

[00:17:42] And then there are some people who, and in India, a lot of vegetarian people. Yeah. So they want to feed vegetarian to their dog. So it's such a wide choice today that you can have. So I just say, find a good balanced diet. Keep some common sense. If it's working well for your dog and say your vet approves, and maybe it's given you a couple of supplements to supplement it if it's not fully balanced. Just go with that.

[00:18:09] Looking at your dog, you should be able to tell whether that's working for your dog or not. That's an interesting one. Because I don't think that's something that people really think of. People go into so many details and try this and that. There are pet nutritionists and all. And I was given all kinds of numbers and all that. You know, they will give you, put a diet and they will do this. And then they are making their own food that they will ship to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is all that. It's a huge industry today. When I started 30 years ago, we just had home cooked food. Food. And that was that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:40] And talking about the industry, one is to own a pet. The other is to take care of the pet. Yes. Is there enough and more support for pets in India today? It's, I think, too much support. So much so that it's actually crippled us. Okay. Explain that a little more. So let me put it to you this way. Okay. If you ever go to the villages of India and you see a villager living with his dog there. Have you ever seen that? Have you ever seen anything like that? You must have. Right.

[00:19:10] Does that dog stay in his home? No, he's outside. He's outside. What does that dog eat? Whatever. Whatever, right? Whatever he could get his. Correct. I mean, he's given as such. Right. Does it include gluten? Does it include lactose? Probably yes. Okay. Does the dog have a fancy collar and leash? No. No, he doesn't. Does the dog have fancy dog toys? No.

[00:19:35] So basically saying this dog doesn't eat imported fancy dog food, sleeps just outside, eats whatever he can get. Does he come when called? Yes. Do you see the villager working down the road and his dogs next to him? Right. At the most, they might have a thread attached to their neck. Correct. When they pass other villages, do you see this dog lunging at other dogs? No. No, not at all. No. Right? I've seen villagers who when they call their dog, the dog comes from three fields away. Correct. Right?

[00:20:01] So basically we're saying the villager living in the village with no access to trainers or behaviorists or YouTube or books has managed pretty well, you might say. Is his dog ever fat? No. Never. Actually lean. Lean. Now, let's put it this way. Let's take the city pet parent. Right? What does their dog eat? A fancy nutritionist curated dog diet. Right? Where does the dog sleep? Oh, in a plush. In a plush designer dog bed. Right?

[00:20:30] Does the dog have designer shampoos? Yes, very much so. How much access does the pet parent in the city have to trainers and behaviorists and YouTube videos and dog books? All of it. All of it. So you have constant access to knowledge. Right. Are the city dogs overweight? Yes. Do they come when called? Mostly. But they're like very moody, I think. They won't listen to you. So tell me then, where did we go wrong? We have everything at our beck and call in the city. Yet we've got it wrong. And the villager in the village has nothing.

[00:20:59] And has still got it right. How did that happen? Natural conditions. And left the dog to be the dog. That's your answer. I mean, all of this. And you know, yeah, I mean, obviously we have over-engineered it to take the dog out of the dog. Sometimes just keeping it simple and letting them be dogs is the answer to everything. It's as simple as that. Sometimes excess information and knowledge and access to things actually can worsen things.

[00:21:29] Now today, everybody I talk to, I don't eat gluten. And I don't eat this. And I don't eat sugar. And I'm like, what do you eat? I mean, there's nothing left. What do you eat? But that's true for the children also. I know parents who are monitoring everything. Oh, my child does not have sugar. Oh, my child should not. But the kid needs sugar. So that's the thing. Too much information can actually sometimes hurt us. I feel.

[00:21:55] So Shirin, the other thing, I think one thing that's kind of made the news a lot of late is this whole issue of strays and people who are unregulated, regulated. Strays are biting. You know, they are attacking. And of course, there have been some very extreme measures of strays being taken off the road, displaced from their natural surrounding that they are familiar with, put somewhere else. So, I mean, what's the fact behind this?

[00:22:24] Because obviously the one who is bitten is saying, oh, all dogs bite. Correct. And obviously, of course, the animal activists were saying, obviously, this is wrong. But I think the truth must be somewhere in between. That's the problem. The truth is in the middle. Neither of the two sides want to come to the middle to take a look at it. That's where the problem lies. The two need to come to an agreement. Both the sides. There are two extremist sides. Two extremist point of views.

[00:22:50] And till somebody actually comes to the middle ground to understand what's happening, that till then the animal will pay the price. It's a man-animal conflict created, in my opinion, by human beings. But the animal pays the price between the two at the end of the day. That's what it is. So, somebody needs to, I think, come to a middle agreement, balance things out and then take it forward. But the two never see eye to eye. So, it's just always just…

[00:23:17] But what's the issue in that? I mean, in this sense, because if you hear, they say that there are, I mean, some 35 million, whatever, some million dogs. But then people say, oh, it's being double counted. But, you know, out of them, some of them are regulated. Like the welfare of… Nobody's ever counted and you can't count them. There's no way you can do that. So, most people that give you numbers, it's just a very good guess. Because, I mean, it is obviously a very… It is dangerous at some level.

[00:23:46] But then it is also like suddenly, you know, there are very… Unfortunately to address these, there are very extreme measures taken either. Either they're just taken off the road and whatever. And euthanasia and whatever. And that's also not going to work. That's also not going to work. Just removing them all is not going to work. Nature abhors a vacuum. You create that vacuum, it'll fill it again. And may fill it with something even worse. So, it's better to leave them where they are. And find a way to co-exist with them in a more, I think, humane way.

[00:24:15] I'm not saying dogs don't bite. I'm not saying people don't get injured. We see some horrific videos out there. But there can be a better way around it. You know, we just have to find that solution. And to do that, I think people have to agree to want to find that. Everybody's just sitting on their high horse. From a tech perspective, since we are a tech podcast, are there things changing in the world of technology? Yes. Yes. We have lots of stuff. Lots of these gadgets which help you when you leave your dog alone.

[00:24:45] You can now talk to your dog through these gadgets. And you have these little collars which allow you to speak and your dog can hear you. And then you have these cameras where now you can watch what your dog's doing. Everybody today has left their dog alone at home with a camera watching to see what the dog's up to. You have all of that. Then you have food dispensers that are automated. They can release food at various intervals. Your dog feels entertained. So there's a lot of advancement. And I'd say China's really done a lot of work in this thing.

[00:25:14] A lot of these gadgets, I'd say, come from China. And then there is the complete rubbish. Sorry to say. You know where people say, oh, this tool will read your dog's mind. Good God. I mean, the day a tool, a gadget can read a woman's mind, then we'll see what can be done with the dog. Right? Find me a gadget first that can understand a woman. Yeah, that's not happening. And neither are you reading. Then it's just very generalized. No, your dog feels sorry. Oh, your dog feels happy.

[00:25:44] And sometimes I've looked at the dog and said, no, he's aggressive. And the gadget's saying, your dog is very happy. He's wagging his tail. So very generic. And I think if I tell people you wanted to entertain yourself and you want to waste money, go ahead and do it. But don't take it for like the gospel truth about your dog. You cannot do that. Dogs communicate in so many subtle ways. And I don't think AI will ever learn to pick that up. Can AI be taught to pick that up? Yes. But you need a very good behaviorist to teach AI.

[00:26:14] So AI has to be taught again by a human being to do that. So that kind of brings me to that. You know, even I got confused when you put out that post on that BARK GPT. I said, okay, is Shrin retiring? Has she done something? And I went right to the end. And I said, go on. You were one of the few who went to the end. A lot of people, interestingly, just stopped at the first slide, made up their mind. And that shows you, again, the world of human beings' common sense, right?

[00:26:43] It was clearly written, scroll to the end. And people saw the first slide and presumed, that's that. And then there were people who went all the way to the end and still thought, that's that. So which again made me wonder, really, in this world. Yeah, I said, Shrin is starting something. So she put out this post called BAK GPT. And it was like, you know, it was just kind of an argument and counter-argument that, you know,

[00:27:09] your dog will tell you all the breeds that are there, but will not be able to tell you this thing. It was an April Fool joke. Correct. So I suddenly thought, wow, I mean, there's something is going on here. And I said, no, no, no. Yeah. But many people wrote to me and said, where can I buy it? I think I should have just been clever, sold it for a lot of money, sold some rubbish and said, you're taking the money and run. So I, of course, I mean, he's ready to mention.

[00:27:35] I said, when I showed it to Salonia, she said, it must be some, I think somebody else has posted something for Shrin. It must be some stupid thing. She just threw it away. I said, no, no, it was that. She said, no, it can't be. I mean, what is this nonsense? But I think that is also a genuine problem. Right. I mean, like you said, I mean, there is so much information out there. I just like, I guess doctors have this huge problem. Everybody comes to this and, you know, these are the five medicines I want.

[00:28:05] Yeah. So I'm sure you have the same issue. Yes, we have the same issue. And I must say, AI is a terrible dog trainer. Sorry to say that. Go to chat GPT and ask how to train a dog. It will give you all the steps. But God knows where you'll end up with them. So it's interesting. Because I think every limited experience, it's so different. I mean, how do you even, I mean, because how do you respond in the moment? Right. Yeah. There is a list of them. If it doesn't follow that template, you don't reach step two, what do you do? Yeah.

[00:28:35] So like I always say when we train, we say, what if the dog doesn't do that? Then what? Sure, AI must learn to understand all the possible variables for that. Then what if that doesn't happen? Then what if that doesn't? I think by then the computer will just lose its mind, misfire and die. So, yeah. So the other interesting thing that I read was that a lot of people are watching training videos. Yes. Which are created in the West. Yes.

[00:29:05] And are applying them to India. Yes. Whether the environment is totally different. And there's not enough videos for dog trainers in India. Yeah. Things like that. What do you think of that? Where do you think we're going wrong with that? Because a lot of what happens there doesn't apply to us. Yeah. One of the main things in our country is the culture. A foreign trainer cannot understand the Indian culture or the Indian way of thinking or our

[00:29:32] system or our religions that dictate to us, all of that. So when you kind of follow that, you leave behind a lot of things. Then you're just taking like a copy paste model. If you're lucky, it'll work for you. If you've not got it correct, it's not going to work for you. It's as simple as that. And why are there not enough training videos out for India? So in my opinion, this is what I say. The good dog trainers are the ones constantly doing the work.

[00:30:00] They don't have time to write the books and do the videos and all of that. The ones who are good at it are actually doing the work and they don't have time for that. It almost feels to me that the canine behaviorist should be the doctor for the humans and not for the dog. Yeah, that's what it is. I mean, yeah. I was just watching this movie called Eat, Pray, Bark. And it's all about that.

[00:30:29] The humans have to change, not the dogs. It's always that. The first thing they do is leave the dogs out in the open and all of that. So it's quite fascinating. What about toys and dogs? It's another obsession that I see. Huge industry. Huge. I remember when I was buying a toy for Yumi. I called Samiran and I said, what should I buy? Because I have no clue what I'm... He's like, wait, wait, wait. Let me ask the trainer what you need to buy. But I don't know if a lot of people do that.

[00:30:58] And therefore, I don't know what goes to the dog and whether that's the right thing that should go to the dog. So I'm going to be honest. When we all go to a pet shop, including me, we buy the toys that appeal to us. Correct. Not to our dogs. So even me, I'm the same. Oh, it's so pretty. Let's just buy it. I don't think whether she'd want to play. I liked it. It looked cute to me. I'm taking it home. Then I gave it to my dog and she's like, I never asked for this. I don't want it. And she walks off. So we don't think about them. But when we choose toys for them,

[00:31:26] we must look at their breed and choose accordingly. Because their breed is genetically prone to playing certain games. So for example, say Labradors love mental challenges. They love to use their noses. They have excellent visual memory. So you buy a toy that works with that, can bring out that shine in them. German Shepherds love to chase. So toys that help them with the chase behavior. So we choose based on breed. That helps a lot. When we just generically pick anything,

[00:31:54] then you're just going to be lucky whether your dog likes it or doesn't like it. And then it's just, I would say money down the drain. The other thing that we also, maybe is because we are now in apartment living or very close proximity. The aggression in dogs. I mean, like to your village example, you don't find inherently aggressive dogs in villages. Not really. Not really. But in cities you've had, I mean, in fact, I know of a case somewhere, so that the,

[00:32:25] I think one of them had a German Shepherd and the lift opened and there was another dog. This guy chased him and bit him. Correct. And then that guy died and then that guy filed a case. Yeah. It's anything. So this is just dog between the human. Yeah. So there is a lot more of that also happening. So is it because of closed confined spaces? Is there lack of training? I don't think dogs are allowed to be dogs here. So it's frustrating to them. They're not allowed to put forward their natural behaviors. We keep telling them

[00:32:54] no for this and no for that and then they're just very frustrated. We don't stop to really understand them. Some dogs are maybe just fearful but a training book said, no, get over the fear and make him do this. So we do it and not think about the consequences of what he felt after doing that. So there's a lot of all of that and I think then just the dog just manifests the aggression eventually saying, you know, this is the only way I can deal with how things are going. Maybe the owner is also like that. Well, true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:33:24] We do say the dog mirrors the owner a lot in behavior and we do see that a lot. Yeah. So at least Zaroni says that about my dog. She says she gets very bored very easily just like you. Yeah, it's very true. Yeah, we do. We sometimes see cranky dogs and typically if I look close enough or I ask, there will be somebody at home who's cranky. Sometimes you see edgy dogs. There's somebody at home who's got it.

[00:33:54] So very likely you see dogs throwing temper tantrums and there's likely a family member doing that. Exuberant dogs have exuberant energy at home. So it's kind of they mirror our energy, right? And they pick up our behaviorisms as such. Sharin, tell us a few fun things that you've experienced in the last 30 years when it comes to human beings and dogs. Oh my God, human beings are, I don't know what to say. I better not say much about it.

[00:34:24] I would say animals are way higher and not just putting dogs and putting all animals above human beings. Of course, we don't think we're the superior species and we're nowhere there. But we've had some funny requests. We get a lot of funny people. I had this lady once and she had a very sweet golden retriever, a very sweet dog, clever dog. And she came to me, you know, we did a bit of training and then one day she said, you know, we were talking, I said, your dog's so clever, he can do literally anything. So she paused and she looked at me and then she said,

[00:34:54] you can teach him anything. I said, well, reasonably. She said, can you teach my dog to push my mother-in-law off the balcony? Oh my God. And they must have stayed like on the 20th floor or something. And, you know, I'd never been asked that. So for a moment I said, well, how would I train that? Yes, that's an interesting thought because it's pretty doable, right? You have to teach the dog to jump, to push, whatever. And then for a moment I paused and I said, maybe I don't want to do that.

[00:35:24] So, yeah, we get requests like that. Yeah. Then you could make a movie. Oh, yeah. Then we regularly will get people, like a husband will come with the dog and, you know, and the wife will say, he loves the dog more than he loves me. And the husband will say, of course I do. She gives me love, you don't. And therein starts one nice little family battle and I'm just sitting there saying, I don't know what to do. I'm just a dog trainer over here. What do you think they'll ask? And I'm like, oh,

[00:35:55] I don't know. Do you think she loves the dog more than she loves me? And the wife also will say, of course you do and you've never loved me enough and it goes down a whole different road. So we do see a lot of this, you know, the dog creating a wedge in marriages sometimes. And many years ago, I had this lady client and she had got a dog from Calcutta to her place and somebody had given her the dog and all that. So the dog had done one long train journey

[00:36:24] and come to Bombay and she said, now the dog has to eat something. So she calls up the owner in Calcutta and says, what does the dog like to eat? So that person says the dog only eats biryani. So at nine in the night, she sat to make a biryani for the dog. Husband's still waiting for his dinner. He had to wait because the biryani was first made for the dog. So she did that. It took about like 45 minutes to cook a fresh biryani for the dog and then she puts it down. The dog rejected it. So she panicked. Husband's still hungry. And then she calls up

[00:36:54] that lady in Calcutta and she said, but she didn't eat this biryani. So then they discussed what the recipe lacked. So then at 10 in the night, she made a whole new biryani. Wow. Husband still is hungry. He's been pushed to the side. And this dog had two biryanis made, still didn't eat it. And this woman is frothing all over the place and wondering what to do. I think eventually dog didn't eat and the husband had to eat that biryani that was made for the dog.

[00:37:22] But you can sometimes imagine that I think people take this a bit too far. I mean, she should have just fed the husband also. I mean, that's a little too extreme. But honestly, when I talk to people and you know, a lot of people say it is a joke if I ask people, who do you love more? Your dog or your spouse? And everyone will be, my dog. And I'm like, oh, this world's heading in a weird direction I think right now. But everybody says, my dog gives me love, my spouse doesn't give. So I mean, I think first we need

[00:37:52] to repair our own relationships before we bring dogs into our complicated lives. I think we bring them in the hope that they will repair our relationships. Yeah. Like they bring children into the world to repair the relationship. It's just that. We have lots of funny stories all the time. How fun is that? So the other one, I mean, I think this is very city specific and maybe Lule can talk about Mumbai. This is one of the other things I think people I mean, since we kind of went through it is, you know,

[00:38:22] this whole thing about emergency care for pets. Yes. It's kind of a, so we have the traditional vets when they are available. But I think one of the things that when something happens, the biggest panic is what do you do? And where do you go? Where do you go between that 6, 7 in the evening to the next day morning or over the weekend? Yeah. So I think in, I think we have some places. What do you suggest people? I mean, just have a better relationship with the vet or I mean, what do we do? I mean,

[00:38:52] I know the data are there. Yeah. So having a better relationship with the vet is always a good thing. But some of the vets may not pick up your phone at night, right? They may miss a call or whatever. Then what? So it's always good to find out where you stay. What are the emergency 24-7 places? Just always good to know what's the closest. And my then suggestion would be make a relationship with that place as well. So at least when you go there, there is something on the car. They are familiar with your dog at least or whatever. And that, you know,

[00:39:21] treatment can maybe move a little bit faster. But the best thing is I tell people find out who's in your area, who's a 24-7, you know, have access to all of that so you can in an emergency go there. Sometimes even your own vet may not have that emergency equipment. Getting to the hospital, or a clinic that is equipped probably makes better sense. Better sense. Yeah. So I think it's good now we have it. 30 years ago, we never had all this. If something went wrong at night,

[00:39:51] that was that. No, no. It's absolutely. In fact, on a more morbid note, I mean, I know it's even the on the passing of end that's the same. We keep on saying it's happened with some friends and of course is that there has to be some facility for that also which is sadly lacking. At least we still care that it is there but beyond that, what do you do when your pet passes away is a big issue. It is. Also because at that point the person is suffering so much.

[00:40:21] There is grief, you're confused and then to have to run around and do paperwork or to find out where to go, what to do can really take a toll. So I think there needs to be maybe a system or something in place where it's just streamlined for you. Somebody comes, helps you out, takes care of all the basic stuff so you can just be with your pet and grieve in private. I think that system needs to be worked on. The main issue that we also face is that none of the parks

[00:40:50] in Mumbai allow pets. I mean, barring I think PDP, whatever, 8 in the morning and before. And I remember that place in front of your house used to allow they have stopped. And in fact, there was one little park that was open right near our house and I went and first checked pets are allowed. They said no, humans are allowed between 7 and 11 and 6 and 9. And then the park is shut. I'm so, you know, actually, so the front desk, where do you even go? That's the thing, yeah. It's like, basically you have to go and live in a village. I mean,

[00:41:19] that is the only option. Yeah, yeah. So a city makes it very hard to keep a pet happy maybe. It's very, very difficult. Yeah. And even when you have these dog parks, people will tell you they're full of ticks or there are lots of dogs and they're aggressive. So don't take your pet there. So really, I mean, unless you have a good building compound where you can have your dog run and play and be free and all that, it can be very difficult. And so, let's say somebody came to you and said,

[00:41:49] what are the five things I must take, check on before I adopt a pet? What would those five must-haves be? So first thing is make sure everybody at home wants the pet, right? Everybody should be aligned with that thought process and everybody should want. Otherwise, it's going to be one person doing everything, somebody else not involved and then there's that disparity that would happen. Two is, do you have time for the dog? You have to have time and if you don't, then choose your breed

[00:42:19] accordingly, choose the age accordingly and find a dog that will settle into your lifestyle. Three is, how much can you give to your dog? At the end of the day, what can you do? What can you not do? Of course, support systems help. People say, you know, I am there as much as I can but I do need a dog walker so it's a support system. That's all fine. Next is, make the effort to understand that you're living with another species. Make that little time to educate yourself, to get to know

[00:42:48] your dog better, to try to give them a good quality of life. I would say, do all of these things. And then just, it's really that simple. And then like I said, I would say the main thing is common sense. Just a good dose of common sense is all you really need. On the topic of dog walkers, you have dog walkers who are with one dog but there are most of the time some eight, ten dogs with the dog walkers and there's all kinds of chaos going on. What's the... Well,

[00:43:18] if you listen to it from both sides, the dog walker's perspective is if he had to take eight dogs separately for half an hour walks, he's going to be exhausted twice a day. I mean, that's too much walking, time, effort and at the end of the day, what is he making out of it? So if the dogs get along and he thinks taking eight together makes more sense to him for that half an hour, it's more value for money as such from his perspective. Do the dogs all enjoy that? Maybe some might, maybe some are just

[00:43:47] being dragged along and not being given their individual time on a walk. Again, it's up to the pet parent. Some want to cut corners and some say, okay, you'll just charge so little for this eight to get, at least my dog's getting out. So then we turn that blind eye to that little bit that we don't want to see. We say, at least the dog's going out and we leave it at that. I just genuinely feel if we paid them better, we didn't treat them the way we do. A lot of people bargain on their prices and they just say, well, you know, uneducated people

[00:44:17] do this, all of that. So then they have no choice but to do what they're doing. It's just, I don't think they make a lot of money. They're not wealthy as such. So I think maybe we should up the whole field of dog walking, pay them a nice handsome salary and then they will probably do better work as well. It's just, they have to manage with what we bargain them down to as a salary. So I think it starts with a pet parent saying, you know, I'm happy to value you for what you are,

[00:44:46] pay you what you honestly would deserve and then we'd get the quality as well. So what's your, I mean, has this whole field of assist or assistance dogs really picked up in? It's picking up a lot nowadays. Yeah. A lot of people want it for wrong reasons. So a lot of people who travel on a flight want to quickly say, just certify my dog as an assist dog so that my dog can come with me in the cabin or I can bypass this or bypass that.

[00:45:16] That's all wrong when we don't do that. But then there are genuine people who say, I struggle with this issue. I need emotional support where we go through the whole rigorous process of the training of the dog, making sure the dog does the job well and all of that. And then actually does the work he's meant to do. But within that, just curious, Rose, you have to, but they are like specialized for special requirements. I mean, it's not a generic. No,

[00:45:45] so it's very specific what the dog would have to do. Whether it's an epileptic seizure alert dog, whether it's an emotional support dog, whether it's a dog helping somebody who's wheelchair bound and has to do physical tasks for them. It's very specific to what the dog would do. Do you treat them that one or two specific skills that they are like? They might need to learn more than one or two, but it's very specific to that person. To that person, definitely. And so does the dog get trained for that person? Yes. Yes. It's only,

[00:46:15] it's very customized to that person and dog. They work as a team eventually. Okay. Yeah. I guess the responding and all, it's not a generic thing. I think the clues and all of that. It can be generic. Yeah. It's done one-on-one work this time. Yeah. Wow. I'm always amazed when I speak about pets. I'm like, there's so much to learn and there is so much to be learned. And the best learning comes from them, not us. Correct. So I shouldn't be

[00:46:44] sitting here, a dog should be sitting here. If we could understand them, we might have had them. Yeah. If I just saw Project Hail Mary, if we could translate what the dogs were saying on laptops, maybe we would probably. From the dogs, yeah. Maybe we wouldn't like to hear what they have to say about us though. Well, that's true of us about ourselves also. That's absolutely fine. I mean, the amount of abuse we are doing to the animal kingdom. That's true. We should be prepared

[00:47:14] to hear about them not liking us as much as we think we're lovable. I mean, I guess, Zuthi, at the end of the day, again, I think I'm going to come back to this whole thing about getting a pet obviously is now becoming like either a status symbol or some people are also building entire zoos and all for them. Correct. So I know at least in Bombay, I know it's not a great process,

[00:47:43] but at least the BMC gives a license. Yeah. I mean, I literally feel that you need to be licensed to keep a dog. I mean, not the other way around. Absolutely. Because across the spectrum, I think pet owners somehow do bigger disservice to other pet owners than the general population does, you know. True. And the reason I say that is just like silly things like this. It is the most irritating thing. I said, why are you doing this making everybody else's

[00:48:13] life miserable? Because you know, every dog is not allowed to walk now. Correct. Yes. I mean, I don't think there is an answer to that, but it seems to be. I think that's more us and our cultural problems, right? We don't want to pick up the dirt. Yeah. In Western it's stupid that everybody else is walking around and there are enough number of disposable places and bags. In just even the more educated parts of Bombay will have more dog poop on the pavement. Correct. Yeah. And that's what I mean because

[00:48:43] we think it is somebody else's who's lower down. I've had people when we put it up on say social media, I've had one man argue with me. He said, that's the job of the municipal worker. And I say, no, it's your dog. He says, no, but if you do that, then he won't have a job. So by not cleaning up after my dog, I've made sure he has a job. It's terrible the way we think. I think it's just unnecessarily irresponsible, but I mean it's very difficult to fix that. Yeah.

[00:49:13] Anyway, I think in my case, the constant thing I hear is that everybody wants to be reborn as my dog. I have said that. Even I want to be reborn as my dog, but then where will I go? Then I have to be reborn as my dog and then it'll make up a real cyclical problem. But then who will take your place? Exactly. Otherwise, then the whole issue will be wasted. No, but I think I'm sure we also do a lot of things wrong, but I mean the dog seems to be happy.

[00:49:43] That's all that matters at the end of the day. Good, good, good. Super. Shirin, thank you so much for coming here and having this conversation with us. And I'm sure if we went breed by breed, you would have insights for us. But we hope we get a chance to do that sometime soon. Anytime. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me here. Pleasure. Thank you. Thank you very much.