Interviews With "Fellow Travelers" Costume Designer Joseph La Corte & Production Designer Anastasia Masaro

[00:00:00] , You are listening to the Next Best Picture Podcast, and these are Dan Baer's interviews

[00:00:05] with the costume designer for fellow travelers, Joseph Lacord, and the show's production designer,

[00:00:13] Anastasia Massaro. Mr. Fuller, we believe we have reason to ask you a series of questions.

[00:00:19] What reason? We're not at liberty to say. Please have a seat. Have you ever attended

[00:00:27] meetings affiliated with the Communist Party? No. Our country is under threat from Soviet

[00:00:32] spies, but there's another risk to national security. What is your marital status? Single,

[00:00:39] but there is a special lady in the picture. Hulk, it's stunning.

[00:00:44] Have you ever had inappropriate physical contact with another man? No. Such a damn good liar.

[00:00:54] Do you like it this way? All this pretending. You're everything to me. If I was everything,

[00:01:00] you wouldn't be going where you're going. You should be careful. Everybody lies about something.

[00:01:07] We must beware of these communists and queers. These people are dangerous to this country.

[00:01:13] I look out at that city and think about what it denies us. We lie about who we sleep with.

[00:01:18] Not who we sleep with, it's who we love. Welcome everyone to the Next Best Picture

[00:01:23] Podcast, where we are talking with Joseph Lacord, the costume designer for fellow travelers.

[00:01:29] Joseph, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:34] Excited to be here. Of course. I'm glad to hear it. Very excited to talk to you about

[00:01:39] your work on this project because it's such a big project. There are lots of characters and

[00:01:47] we're following them across decades. There are lots of time jumps, not just between the

[00:01:54] episodes, but sometimes within, where we have to catch up with the characters,

[00:02:01] so to speak, through their appearances, through their costumes. I'm wondering, how did you

[00:02:09] approach telling the story of these characters that the audience doesn't get to see

[00:02:14] through their clothes? Right. Well, yes, it was quite an undertaking. The one thing we

[00:02:21] tried to do is obviously stay as authentic as possible to each period because before the actor

[00:02:26] even opens their mouth, you've already seen them in a close. You've made an assumption.

[00:02:30] You've made an opinion. Oh, we're now in the 50s. Oh, now we're in the... So it was super

[00:02:35] important to make sure we were crystal clear about that. Our editor obviously did a

[00:02:41] brilliant job and the writing was... Ron did such a good job with the scripts that

[00:02:46] it just was so clear every time we jumped even just reading it. You could tell how it's going

[00:02:53] to look, what it's going to... And then our directors were also incredible. How they chose

[00:02:58] a shot to start the next section in of a different decade helped as well. So it was a

[00:03:04] team effort, but yeah, it was a lot of pressure, but we did okay. I'd say you did

[00:03:10] a little bit better than okay. I'm wondering because there's a lot of... I don't think that

[00:03:20] this series is color coded, but there definitely are, I think, throughout, there's certain

[00:03:28] colors or color schemes that do become associated with these characters. And I'm wondering how much

[00:03:35] you collaborated with the other design teams on these color choices.

[00:03:42] Yeah, so there were so many meetings. Obviously, Anastasia Marzano, the production designer and I

[00:03:49] spent countless times in each other's office. Hey, I'm thinking about this fabric, what

[00:03:53] color is your wall going to be? So she'd hold up her... So there was lots of those

[00:03:57] conversations. There was also lots of conversations with the hair and makeup head

[00:04:02] departments. So choice of lip color, choice of blush and eye shadow. So there was lots of those

[00:04:08] conversations as well. And also with Ron who created the show and each director for each

[00:04:13] episode, there were lots of conversations how we wanted that character in that moment to

[00:04:17] present. There was a bit of color handling on my part, like for the 50s, because

[00:04:25] as the story develops, you get the unfurling of what's happening to the gay and lesbian

[00:04:31] people of the 50s. So I always wanted there to be like a brooding stormy feeling in Washington,

[00:04:36] like something's coming. So that is definitely, with the exception of Alison who,

[00:04:43] you know, in the 50s is sort of naive and doesn't really know what's about to happen

[00:04:46] to her. So she's the one pop of color here and there. And Lucy sort of becomes the

[00:04:53] the pop of color often throughout the series. Even I was going to ask you specifically

[00:05:00] about the, I'm assuming Chanel that she wears to the AIDS ward in the last episodes, because

[00:05:10] it felt like such a perfect character choice. Like that is what she would wear to

[00:05:16] to meet her husband's lover. 100%.

[00:05:24] Alison and I, actually that's the one costume out of all of them that Alison and I talk the most

[00:05:30] about just getting make sure we got it right. Because this is the moment, you know, we also

[00:05:36] know for all of these characters, we looked because we are based, most of the show is

[00:05:41] based on historical accurate events. But you know some of the characters are fictional. So

[00:05:45] we had to look inside what would their contemporaries wear. So for Alison's contemporary

[00:05:50] through the decade, it would be Lee Roswell and Jackie Kennedy. So we look to them for like

[00:05:56] inspiration. But in this moment when she's meeting Tim, she also knows I'm flying to

[00:06:02] San Francisco. I know I'm about to separate from my husband. I know I'm about to meet

[00:06:07] this man again because she's met him once but you know, I better look the best damn,

[00:06:13] you know, she had to it was like armor for her to look. Yeah. I look this good and

[00:06:18] you're losing this and this you've taken my husband but I'm, you know, it's a bit of a

[00:06:23] power play. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And she comes in there with that, that suit and that hair

[00:06:32] and you go, Oh, this is an important. Yeah. And she doesn't even know like, what

[00:06:44] she's stepping into, even when she steps into the hospital. I mean, you know, she said to the guy,

[00:06:48] do I need the gloves? Like, she's like, what this is gonna make me feel good. I feel

[00:06:52] protected in this. I also look good in this. So it was a lot of that conversation.

[00:06:56] Yeah. And the fact that she is in pure white in this location, it did read like,

[00:07:05] she almost looked like a particularly fashionable nurse, which I kind of liked.

[00:07:13] Oh, yeah, that word, word B, I think B8, I think, I'm hoping to get the wrong. It was very

[00:07:21] color. You know, as the show says, it's the only hospital of its kind during that time that

[00:07:27] really tried to make it feel homey and but and this everything was colorful in the hospital. So

[00:07:32] it cheered people up. So her being in white helped make her stand out and also look awkward.

[00:07:38] Yes, very much so. And so different from the earlier scenes like you were mentioning in the

[00:07:44] 50s when she's in that beautiful aquamarine dress, which you know, she does stand out and

[00:07:51] is this sort of symbol of femininity and innocence in this very masculine sort of

[00:07:58] world of almost spy like subterfuge. Correct. Actually, and honestly, that dress is the very

[00:08:06] first thing I sketched for the show. I put the script down and I started that right away because

[00:08:11] I was like, she was Ron did such an amazing job of literally the people when I read this,

[00:08:16] I could see them clearly. And when I turned in my first pass at sketches of what I felt the

[00:08:21] show should look like, I would say 85% of it made it to camera. So it was a win for me.

[00:08:27] It was a win for all but it's just a testament to how good his writing was.

[00:08:32] That's incredible to hear, first of all. And it leads to another question that I was going to ask,

[00:08:37] which is I think that one of the fun things about designing a period piece like this is

[00:08:44] that you get to go into the archives a little bit and you can both source actual vintage stuff

[00:08:52] and also design something that you think just kind of fits. Maybe it doesn't look exactly

[00:08:57] like something that people were wearing, but it fits in the time period and you can play a little.

[00:09:02] So I was wondering how much of this did you actually end up sourcing from vintage or from

[00:09:09] old designs versus how much you designed yourself? Well, we obviously with four decades,

[00:09:15] the amount of research was never ending and constant up until we even got into the last

[00:09:20] block of shooting this series six months and we're still because there's just never enough

[00:09:25] time, especially in television. You go so fast. We were constantly looking at old patterns and old

[00:09:31] news reels back in the day to show newsreels between movies. And so we look at old newsreels

[00:09:38] for political stuff and just everything because some of the historical characters are actually

[00:09:43] documented very well, but that sort of helped inform what the fictional characters would look

[00:09:49] like as well. And then you enhance it to fit that actor and that character all except I would say

[00:09:56] 80-85% of Allison's clothes were all built. All of Hawk's clothes through the 50s were definitely

[00:10:05] built and some of the 80s were built, some of the 70s were built. So we really built a lot

[00:10:12] of stuff. The only person we specifically didn't do anything special except for building underwear

[00:10:17] was for Tim, Jonathan Bailey's character. Oh wow. Because he came from Staten Island so he had

[00:10:24] nothing but one suitcase and if you notice like his color palette is the same clothes just cobbled

[00:10:29] together in different configurations to make it look like because that's what he had. He had

[00:10:34] one suitcase of clothes. He's not successful. He doesn't have anything. You know we had to

[00:10:39] we wanted clothes. I wanted to get clothes that were vintage and had a life already lived in

[00:10:44] them and really worn down in all the right places to show that he's you know struggling

[00:10:49] and finding his place in the world. And so there was a lot of times we would have you

[00:10:54] know just one shirt and you know during some of the sex you'd hear a rip and you'd be like oh no

[00:10:59] but we doctor it back together to make sure we could do another take. But hence

[00:11:04] we had to make 12 pairs of stunt underwear to make sure that

[00:11:08] uh we just we just we literally sourced and got real vintage underwear and then just copied them.

[00:11:15] Oh wow. And Tim and t-shirts and uh all that and ties for the tie-up scene. I can't imagine

[00:11:23] that going into this project or anything else that you've worked on that that has been

[00:11:27] the first thought on your mind well we have to have lots of backup underwear in case

[00:11:31] we have to. Well once you're reading the whole series like oh again oh again oh oh tie that oh

[00:11:39] socks okay yeah it's fantastic. You were talking about a lot of the research that you did

[00:11:45] and one of the things that I really loved seeing in the the 1950s sections of this film was

[00:11:52] that underground club the cozy cozy cozy corner and we get to see the legendary

[00:12:00] Stormy DeLovery perform there and I'm you know obviously they're vintage pictures of them in the

[00:12:08] their performance outfits but I'm wondering how much how much else you were able to find about

[00:12:14] like what the costumes for other drag performers looked like during this time because yeah so

[00:12:20] interesting you asked that question. One thing I stumbled across and if you haven't seen this

[00:12:25] you need to go see this is a documentary called P.S. Burn This Letter Please. I haven't seen it.

[00:12:32] So I'll try to make it super quick it's about a guy who lived in New York and was friends

[00:12:36] with uh New Jersey rather and was friends with all the New York City drag queens in the 50s

[00:12:41] he moved to LA to become a radio personality which he did but all the time the drag queens

[00:12:46] wrote him letters and at the end of one of the one of the particular drag queens always

[00:12:51] signed her letter P.S. Burn This Letter Please because if it ever got out you know it could be

[00:12:55] dangerous for that girl uh fast forward many decades later the man's passed and they auction

[00:13:01] off his storage unit and inside his storage unit is the box of letters from all the drag

[00:13:06] queens hence the documentary was made right in the documentary there are photos and home videos

[00:13:14] and amazing amazing research of what it sort of looked like back in the day and you know I

[00:13:20] talked with Noah Ricketts who plays Rick and like I think there's a good vibe here of like you know

[00:13:25] it's you know guys weren't perfect makeup artists back then like they are it's like

[00:13:30] Drag Race is now taking up the world but back then it was you know all done in secret

[00:13:35] so there was a little more androgyny to the makeup like you know it was good but it wasn't

[00:13:38] great and for Stormé yes there was actual photos of what existed of what he was you know

[00:13:46] they were filmed in at the time or pictured in and for Noah we took inspiration from like

[00:13:52] Billie Holiday and Eartha Kidd and Josephine Baker who he would have looked to for his

[00:13:58] inspiration as well and because he lived in a tiny room above the cozy corner it was what he

[00:14:04] could thrift in a store what he could make himself which was handy with a sewing machine

[00:14:09] so there yeah that's where a lot of uh it came from but yes if you dig there are really

[00:14:15] really great uh research out there about Drag Queens back in the day and because of Drag Race

[00:14:20] and all that people are starting to unearth more and more and more uh about it yeah and it's very

[00:14:27] both fun and in a way educational to see these kind of things and though it's not something

[00:14:34] a world that we get to see very often I mean I know that Drag Queens currently are you know

[00:14:40] have their challenges right now especially but what they went through back in the day was

[00:14:46] something that you know the current reigning drag society doesn't know about so it was really

[00:14:51] educational in that way for them to see we've talked about a few characters now you know

[00:14:57] specifically throughout this and I'm wondering what character was your favorite to design for

[00:15:05] oh I don't know that I can pick just why don't they try to pick a favorite child

[00:15:10] I mean but everyone has their favorite child they don't say but they know

[00:15:16] honestly oh I don't I honestly everyone was really just quite amazing and I and I it's a

[00:15:23] rarity that you can say that like nowadays like every actor was just incredible everyone

[00:15:28] was trusting and in every you know the minute we filmed we we filmed this very

[00:15:33] elaborate uh screen test for the studio Dan Minahan the genius uh we filmed it like an

[00:15:39] old Hollywood screen test with the old Hollywood clapboard and all the lights and then it was put

[00:15:45] to music and sent to the studio when we all saw the cut from just the screen test we all knew

[00:15:51] this was going to be something special and we didn't know it would blow like it has but we're

[00:15:57] grateful uh but so we all just like went every actor every set person craft person

[00:16:03] hair maker everyone just went all in to make sure it was the best it could be

[00:16:07] um back to your question which is my favorite I don't really have a favorite but I will tell you

[00:16:12] the person that cracked me up the most was Will Brill who plays Roy Cohen oh yeah every fitting

[00:16:19] with him it was just a laugh fest uh he just he's just such a calm in every you know he

[00:16:27] put everything on and start turning into character and it was just wonderful and you know I really

[00:16:32] had a great time with Allison uh you know she was a bit of a challenge only because

[00:16:37] she was only in certain days of certain weeks so she flew in and out all the time

[00:16:42] so she would land at like five o'clock in the afternoon and shoot the next day so that

[00:16:46] there were three things ready for her to fit to make one of them had to work and so there

[00:16:50] was a lot of that but I mean we really did have an amazing cast and there was no one

[00:16:55] favorite honestly I know that you had said that that you would work with Allison and you

[00:17:00] would talk with her at least about the about that uh look in the in the hospital in the 80s

[00:17:06] were there any of the other actors that you really collaborated with on any specific looks

[00:17:12] yeah everybody because the first the first thing I do after I sort of get a sign off from the

[00:17:19] you know the director and the showrunner that yeah this is the direction we want to go is I

[00:17:23] send my sketches out to the actors and with the introduction for those who I haven't worked

[00:17:27] before and I'm like hey this is the the direction we're going we'd love to schedule a meeting to chat

[00:17:32] and figure out what you have in your head because listen it's my designs but if they don't feel

[00:17:37] comfortable in it then that's going to hinder their performance and there's nothing worse

[00:17:41] and sometimes you can actually see an actor in a show or a tv or movie that you can tell

[00:17:46] there's something not right there and it's nice and it can be the costume so you know

[00:17:51] and so I'm not one of those people like this is what you're wearing end of story that's

[00:17:55] that doesn't do me any good and I always tell the actors after a fitting I'm like I want you to be

[00:18:02] so comfortable when you leave this room that you never can think about your clothes again

[00:18:05] because you have enough to worry about acting and being in a moment then does this look good

[00:18:09] is this fitting light is this too tight we get all that worked out now and then you don't

[00:18:13] have to worry about it it's very smart um I know we're coming up on the end of our time

[00:18:19] oh no it's so fast I know but another question that I just love to ask

[00:18:25] our customers whenever I get the chance is what character was the most difficult for you to

[00:18:31] costume I probably would say that was going to be Frankie uh that Noah Ricketts played only

[00:18:38] because the amount of research and conversation between everyone including Ron including there

[00:18:45] was a there was a look of Frankie's that we all were like on board with right at the beginning

[00:18:50] and we did that look and then two weeks out we're like nice this isn't it this isn't it so

[00:18:55] it went back to the drawing board to get it right uh and so we finally found it but uh yeah

[00:19:00] so that was a challenge it just just because it was such an important moment to get right in

[00:19:05] the show not only just because it's the dry queen but but their relationship and what Marcus

[00:19:11] is actually seeing in this person and how they're dressed and how he deals with the emotion of how

[00:19:16] you know so there was a lot of conversation about that so that would be I'd say the biggest

[00:19:21] challenge but it was still fun and you know Noah's amazing so he would gain for anything

[00:19:27] that's really good to hear the other one that I like to ask is you know when you have

[00:19:31] all these different periods that you're designing for even if they was only just for

[00:19:36] one episode what was your favorite time period to design for in this particular project

[00:19:44] coming up on five minute news I'm Anthony Davis you might think it's partisan because maybe it's

[00:19:51] critical of one side or the other but it's not just the truth and I think that's also

[00:19:56] something that's kind of unusual for Americans listening to the radio or to podcasts because

[00:20:03] the news landscape in the states has been so partisan for so many decades so five minute

[00:20:09] news is verified truthful independent unbiased and essential world news daily oh wow um well

[00:20:21] I want to say I it's rare that you get a chance to do four of the most influential

[00:20:26] periods in fashion and one piece but I have a I have a soft spot for anything in the

[00:20:34] the 40s and the 50s so I would say the 50s just because there was so much of it too in our show

[00:20:39] and so many different walks of life in in styles from poor to rich to drag queens to

[00:20:48] laborers to politicians so yeah it was it was great the 50s were great for me

[00:20:53] well it's an incredible range of costumes and it everyone looks great and it tells the story

[00:20:59] I don't know what more you could want to see a series like this oh thank you that's so kind

[00:21:05] Joseph Lacorte thank you so much for joining us again thank you very much and if you uh take

[00:21:11] care have you ever been in love with another male I have loved you my whole life

[00:21:16] my great consuming love Mr. Fuller answer the question hello everyone welcome to the next best

[00:21:30] picture podcaster we are talking with Anastasia Mazzaro the production designer for fellow

[00:21:36] travelers Anastasia thank you so much for joining us today hello thank you for having me

[00:21:42] you know fellow travelers is a really kind of ambitious project it covers four decades from

[00:21:49] the 50s to the 1980s and it covers spaces that are both real like these government buildings

[00:21:58] places on fire island pines and imagined spaces as well so I'm curious where did you begin

[00:22:05] your work on this project we started off well I started off I'm going to say the easier things

[00:22:11] which were not all that easy but the government buildings the state department I couldn't see

[00:22:16] any I couldn't find any images inside the state department we even called Washington we

[00:22:20] tried everything could not find any so that actually gave us a lot of leeway because it

[00:22:24] was an imagined space at that point I we found images of like the lobby so that could be

[00:22:29] anything and then um with the senate that was a little bit easier because

[00:22:33] still there and we could we could see images and through the past of how different rooms

[00:22:38] changed like the hearing rooms so we started off with that and then we started talking about

[00:22:44] what we wanted it was with like Ron Niswanner the showrunner and Dan Minahan

[00:22:50] interesting conversations about the spaces for Hawk and for Tim and even for Mary and what

[00:22:55] was interesting for that was that we kind of were developing the character as we were scouting

[00:23:01] because we'd be like okay how about this exterior and I'd be like okay if we do this exterior this

[00:23:06] says this about this person and they're like oh but this is really warm and friendly is that

[00:23:10] what we want to say about this person and they're like oh interesting and then when we

[00:23:15] landed on Hawk for example his exterior his was his was like you know what do we do

[00:23:20] with this man he's an enigma and I'm like I liked that building that we chose because I

[00:23:25] said when I look at it I have no idea what's going on inside it could be anything in there

[00:23:30] and the other option for that building was just something just more traditional more just a warmer

[00:23:38] space and so when I said that to Ron he was like okay wait a second I like that then he

[00:23:42] talked about it with Dan the things that we didn't build from scratch those were the ones

[00:23:47] that were a little bit more difficult because it's it's actually harder to work with things

[00:23:51] that already exist rather than building from scratch sure so we started a lot with like

[00:23:56] what existed what was there you know what was actual and then we went to okay so now what do

[00:24:03] we have what do we have to work with for the locations and then what do we have free

[00:24:08] rain over like the cozy corner what can I do anything with I'm so glad you brought up the

[00:24:12] cozy corner because that is one of my favorite spaces in the series I think it looks just

[00:24:18] really gorgeous and there were these sort of underground clubs that existed around this time

[00:24:26] so like did you base it on any one space in particular well the cozy corner actually existed

[00:24:34] I couldn't find what it looked like I found the location it was on top of a shop and the

[00:24:40] description that I found for it was that it looked like it was about to burn down at any

[00:24:44] any minute and then it finally did oh gosh so it wasn't the grand space that I pitched

[00:24:51] but the reason I pitched that space was because like I wanted it to be like this kind of I wanted

[00:24:58] Tim to be ostrich when he walked in right you walk in and you're like wow I wanted it to be a

[00:25:03] reclaimed space also not all of the scripts were written but enough of them were that I

[00:25:10] could see how many scenes were happening in this location in the set and how many entries

[00:25:16] and exits we needed to have and it needed to have it needed to move it needed to have some

[00:25:22] geography that we could do many things and you wouldn't get bored of looking at this space or

[00:25:28] run out of camera angles so that's why I did the different levels and the size which

[00:25:34] it's actually not as big as you as you might think that it is but um it was it was spacious

[00:25:39] so that's where that came from when I pitched it to Ron I'm like what are you thinking

[00:25:42] and he let me go for it and Dan was like let's go for it so I was kind of nervous when I walked

[00:25:47] in that day to see what would happen when Ron turned around he had tears in his eyes

[00:25:52] and he's like this is the best that I've ever been I'm like oh my god thank you like

[00:25:55] he likes it oh my gosh I just I don't want to present a space where then you then run you

[00:26:01] know run out of angles and a DP and director are looking at me like now what and that what

[00:26:07] that gave enough it gave it gave a ton so that's where I was going with that one as well

[00:26:12] yeah and it's especially fun to sort of contrast that space with the other gay bar

[00:26:20] esque spaces throughout the series they each have a different feel that is so tied to

[00:26:27] the immunity that they're in when you were doing your research for these did you

[00:26:34] did you look at more specific places that you've had in mind or were you just looking

[00:26:40] at general snapshots of a particular time I was looking at snapshots of a particular time

[00:26:48] but Dan and Ron specifically Dan had a lot of great stories about his time in New York City

[00:26:55] and that era and the bars so he had shot me some a couple of images one of them was in

[00:27:00] London actually it was more about the feeling as opposed to the specific look of the places so we

[00:27:07] went with that which like you know it was a what are we aiming for with this one and then

[00:27:12] of course I did some you know I did research on what specific ones look like like I'm gonna

[00:27:18] I forget the name of Julia Julian's in New York City oh Julius Julius in New York City so

[00:27:25] in the bar with the motorcycles in it towards like later I have a little homage if you can see it

[00:27:33] with the light fixture which some people will catch some people won't so I you know I put

[00:27:38] in things like that or the elephant walk bar that we did I couldn't get pictures of what the

[00:27:43] elephant walk bar looked like exactly but I did do research on there was the twin peaks bar

[00:27:48] that also had windows large windows on a corner which was a big deal at that time it was like

[00:27:56] one of the first bars that you could actually see inside and so they had a lot of Tiffany

[00:28:00] lights and so that's where my little homage to that came from so there's like a little

[00:28:04] bit of picking of little homages that I hope will remind some people and they can go oh yeah

[00:28:11] that but I wasn't trying to make anything look exactly like anything it was just

[00:28:15] creating that feeling it's something that's really fascinating to me when talking with

[00:28:20] designers specifically for period projects is how do you find the balance between creating

[00:28:28] something that is perfectly period accurate versus you know letting your creative juices

[00:28:36] sort of run free and creating the artistic expression of what this place could look like

[00:28:43] well I mean the creative juices of what it could look like unless we're going from scratch and it's

[00:28:47] some fantasy thing it's always going to be based on some sort of reality and the way I design is

[00:28:52] I don't necessarily always go with what do I want it to look like but how do I want what do

[00:28:56] I want it to feel like so when I'm doing period which I've done several times before

[00:29:02] the trick with period is to not just do 50s no period like no decade had only that decade

[00:29:07] in it so you got to bring layers from previous decades and so that helps with developing

[00:29:13] stories because a set with no story in it is just is just a room it's like the difference

[00:29:17] between going to like Ikea and buying everything for your house from Ikea that day or picking

[00:29:22] things on your travels picking things that you love with your friends bringing in memories that

[00:29:26] that becomes the big difference so doing like doing period it actually is a little bit easier

[00:29:32] because I get more decades from which to glean some stories or to come up with some stories

[00:29:37] and that sounds like a lot of fun which it is that's the fun part of creating sets is developing

[00:29:43] the stories that the audience doesn't necessarily pick up on right away but they're there like I

[00:29:49] never I never put something in there that wasn't meant that wasn't meant to be there for a

[00:29:54] reason particularly enjoyed this there are all these florals on the wallpapers especially the

[00:30:02] kind of pattern on Tim's bedding in his apartment or the boarding house room in the 50s

[00:30:10] this feels like just from the feel and look of that fabric I could tell exactly what kind of

[00:30:18] state he was living in it just that was like an older lady's you know rooming house it's all

[00:30:26] stuff and he's brought his little bits and pieces like what's his books and his like

[00:30:31] his little university mascot and his letters and his you know his photographs that's it that's

[00:30:37] his everything else is from the landlady yeah and you can tell looking at the space what's

[00:30:43] what's his versus what was there it's very cool that I also one of the things that you

[00:30:49] notice watching is this a lot of the spaces that hawk is uh calls home they have all these

[00:30:58] blues and they also have these sort of light I'll call them light or small florals

[00:31:07] especially in the homes of the of senator smith and then when we get to the the drag queens

[00:31:14] apartment her name is escaping me right now yes frankie's apartment there are also these

[00:31:18] florals but they're like much larger and more exuberant on the wall yes the ones that are

[00:31:26] decadent well the that blue wallpaper in there that was there was like hand application of gold

[00:31:32] on that wallpaper it's far more luxurious as opposed to as opposed to frankie's or even

[00:31:38] mary's hawk doesn't have any florals he has glass he collects veneet like italian glass

[00:31:44] and a lot of his art was you know aspirational it was about how he want he wanted he wants to

[00:31:49] move to italy right he wants to get out so they were it was like cool and you know not

[00:31:54] in your face but his personality was there he's like let's keep it together

[00:31:59] whereas frankie's was not frankie's was all emotion all over that was a really fun set

[00:32:05] I was just gonna ask like what was your your favorite space to design the two the three

[00:32:11] favorite spaces were frankie's cozy corner and tim's apartment in san francisco I have

[00:32:16] so many questions about him's apartment in san francisco which was also a build from scratch

[00:32:22] and that one I mean the layout came from the script and how how the character how I saw the

[00:32:29] characters moving in there and then from talking with Dan and Destiny with how they wanted how

[00:32:33] they saw the actors moving it had a little bit of a vibe like the that doorway from the

[00:32:38] kitchen to the bathroom my aunt in Italy had this great apartment and she had this doorway

[00:32:44] in the kitchen that actually walked into the dining room but it it had this glow this light

[00:32:48] so that's where that door came from because it was always like that that apartment just had the

[00:32:53] best flow and the best glow so that's where that came from and so that apartment had to do a

[00:32:59] bunch of things but in a small amount of space because it couldn't be this elaborate thing so

[00:33:03] the the the kitchen was uh was designed so that it looked like you know it had been

[00:33:08] put in in like the late 70s early 80s kind of kind of thing right it was just

[00:33:13] it was adding on and then Tim sensitive sweet emotional romantic Tim he had collected all this

[00:33:20] stuff from his whole life and his time with Hawk and his time with his friends and so

[00:33:25] all of that stuff all of those bits are all over that apartment yeah there are some things

[00:33:31] you know like that are really noticeable like the bet middler poster but then I I was

[00:33:37] man that was damn in a hand I can imagine and then there are other things like there's a

[00:33:43] there's a particular shot where he is you know sitting you can see his bookshelf behind him

[00:33:49] and I immediately wanted to pause and look at what books he had on that shelf because I

[00:33:56] could tell like it felt it really felt lived it like he has been there for a while and he's

[00:34:04] accrued like you said he's accrued all this stuff I'm wondering what kind of like you know sort of

[00:34:09] Easter egg kind of stuff that you had hidden on the set because that was difficult as well

[00:34:14] because we shot it like early on and so we had to grab stories from later so that was a lot

[00:34:20] of conversation with Ron about what he wanted to see in there and and and things from sets

[00:34:25] that we from from episodes we hadn't even shot yet so it was a lot of conversation

[00:34:30] with Ron about okay what's happening what do you think that we what do you think you want to see

[00:34:35] in here I'm missing I'd be like Ron I'm missing some information here and then we'd have a talk

[00:34:40] about that and he'd bring up a story that bookshelf the most the most emotional and I

[00:34:46] think important part of that bookshelf were all the the cards of of lost friends all these

[00:34:51] funeral cards for the friends that he had lost along the you know throughout the years which was

[00:34:57] a horrible reminder of that era and how many lives were needlessly lost how many lives were

[00:35:03] affected so that was that was the most emotional part I think of that bookshelf and of the

[00:35:09] apartment probably for me and then it was just making it making sure it looked lived in you

[00:35:13] know like making sure it looked not like it I didn't want it to look like a location it's

[00:35:18] always when somebody says you know oh you built that Dan was like no no you have to

[00:35:23] you have to talk to people because people are thinking that they were all locations and I'm

[00:35:26] like we we built a lot like that senate was a bill the whole state department was a bill

[00:35:33] we built uh seven weeks straight wow for seven weeks the carpenters worked all through every

[00:35:39] weekend for seven or eight weeks straight seven weeks well I mean you you've done a lot of

[00:35:44] many different types of projects before how does that timeline compare to other projects

[00:35:49] you've worked on the timeline was brutal for the volume of sets and the time we had so I

[00:35:56] was told the two largest sets are going to be at the end of the first block lies they were in

[00:36:01] the first five days oh no yeah they were in the first five days the state department and the

[00:36:06] senate were in the first five days that kind of killed us and then uh what was supposed

[00:36:12] to come up next the cozy corner and I think the hearing room in the next week and I'm like

[00:36:15] we're dying like that's like we're dying and it was really really busy it was just end of

[00:36:21] summer or middle of the summer Toronto was booming there wasn't a lot of crew I'm like we've got to

[00:36:27] move those two sets because we will like they're dying so that that was the hardest was the

[00:36:32] amount of time we had I had I had 11 weeks prep not even my construction crew like just

[00:36:38] me from the day I started was 11 weeks to camera oh wow so you didn't you had only uh

[00:36:43] like maybe uh three weeks to a month to to really do the research and get everything down

[00:36:48] paper I had days as soon as I found out that I have the job I think I started like five days

[00:36:54] later so as soon as I find out that I have a job I start doing the research because once I'm

[00:36:59] at work like on the job I'm in meetings like all day long there was no designing there's

[00:37:06] this image of the production center sitting there drawing nice pictures I don't do that

[00:37:10] at work I do that after hours I do that on weekends because at work I'm just being asked

[00:37:16] questions all day long that I need to have answers for so I like to come to work with a

[00:37:22] whole bulk of research so that I'm not having to do all of that work after I've already started

[00:37:28] with all these people asking me questions so I had a pile of images already gathered

[00:37:33] and within those five days and by the time Dan and Ron got there the entire my entire

[00:37:39] art department walls were covered with all the research and really incredible that you were able

[00:37:44] to create so many spaces in such a time that it's very impressive I know we're coming up on the

[00:37:50] end of our time together but I could not let this interview go without asking about this

[00:37:58] cheap-looking paperweight like keepsake that kicks off the story because a lot of it like

[00:38:06] iterate there was the oval I can imagine the sound there is also different colors of the

[00:38:12] resin because it needed to yellow over time was was that something that you like had you found

[00:38:18] one of these like from you made that completely just based on okay and I'm assuming that was a

[00:38:25] period photo of the buildings in there yeah was that a specific thing in the script though

[00:38:33] what the picture was of and what it was doing or was it more up to you to decide

[00:38:38] I remember there it was obviously for sure in the script and then we pitched Ron a couple of

[00:38:43] different ideas actually I remember it wasn't even the image that was like that was hard to

[00:38:50] choose it was just the shape that was you know do we go over the round and size well

[00:38:54] yeah the size and because it comes up a couple times throughout the the series we see it in

[00:38:59] several locations and it's not the sort of thing that you would think Hawk would have had

[00:39:05] in his apartment and yet he doesn't want to be all that you know emotional but it

[00:39:14] but he it's he's in there there's a heart in there there is and I think that's one of the

[00:39:20] things that you put across in in these sets too thank you so much Anastasia for joining us

[00:39:28] today it's been wonderful talking with you thank you you as well hey everyone thank you

[00:39:32] so much for listening to Dan Baer's interviews with the costume designer for fellow travelers

[00:39:37] Joseph LaCorte and the show's production designer Anastasia Massaro here on the

[00:39:43] Next Best Picture podcast fellow travelers is now available to stream on Paramount Plus with

[00:39:50] Showtime and is up for your consideration for this year's Emmy Awards for best costume design

[00:39:56] best production design and outstanding limited series you have been listening to the Next Best

[00:40:03] Picture podcast we are proud to be part of the Evergreen Podcast Network and you can subscribe

[00:40:08] to us anywhere where you subscribe to podcasts be sure to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts

[00:40:13] and let us know what you think of the show we really appreciate your feedback and your support

[00:40:18] which you can also lend on over at Patreon for one dollar minimum a month you will get some

[00:40:24] exclusive podcast content from us thank you all so much for listening as always and we will see you all next time

[00:41:15] you've watched them in unforgettable adventures love affairs and tragedies

[00:41:22] now it's time to hear their own remarkable stories from the makers of Death of a Rockstar

[00:41:29] and Death of a Sportstar this is Death of a Filmstar

[00:41:36] starring Heath Ledger Marilyn Monroe Chadwick Boseman Robin Williams Carrie Fisher

[00:41:45] and Bruce Lee search for Death of a Filmstar in your podcast app you've seen them tell stories

[00:41:53] now it's time to tell theirs