Interview With "Thelma" Director/Writer Josh Margolin

[00:00:00] Shopify grows your business no matter how far or big you grow. Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Whether you're selling your fans' next favorite shirt or an exclusive piece of podcast merch, Shopify helps you sell everywhere.

[00:00:20] Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US. Allbirds, Rothies, Brooklinen, and millions of other entrepreneurs of every size across 175 countries. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Because businesses that grow, grow with Shopify.

[00:00:46] Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash income, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash income now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Zeit, deine Stadt in vollen Zügen zu genießen. Heute geht's mit deinen Freunden in deine Lieblingsbar.

[00:01:12] Lass dein Auto zu Hause stehen. Ganz einfach Fahrt buchen und unterwegs die anderen einsammeln. Über die Funktion Zwischenstops. So spart ihr Zeit und Geld. Klick aufs Banner und buche deine Fahrt. Bequem durch deine Stadt. Mit der Uber App. Uber vermittelt Fahrten und ist kein Beförderer.

[00:01:29] You are listening to the Next Best Picture Podcast and this is Emma Sassick's interview with the director and writer for Thelma, Josh Margalin. What's your plan for the day? Ah, the usual. Hello? Grandma! Danny? You sound so strange. I'm in jail. Oh my God. Mail $10,000 to this address. $10,000?

[00:01:56] How did you think this was real? Mom, you thought it was real too. Oh my God. She was very convincing. Well, she was scared, your mother. We were all scared. I wasn't quite as scared, just for the record. They're no use.

[00:02:12] They contact people at random using telephone listings and social networking sites. Like Facebook? Sure, by Facebook. Shouldn't Zuckerberg be able to fix this? What about my money? Am I supposed to just let them have it? I'm going to get it back. I need a ride.

[00:02:32] My mother is at large. Why are we stopping at Mollusk? To get a gun. Do you even know how to use it? How hard can it be? Idiots use them all the time. God. Hi Josh, how are you? Good, Emma, how you doing? I'm doing so good.

[00:02:46] I'm so excited to speak with you about this film. I had an opportunity to catch it at Sundance earlier this year and instantly shot up to some of my favorite films that I've seen so far.

[00:02:59] So it's been such a delight to think back on this film, rewatch it again. And I can just imagine how fun this shoot was for you and the whole cast too. It was a lot of fun. It was, yeah, I think about it a lot.

[00:03:13] It was very, very fun. I miss it. I'm sure maybe you didn't anticipate, you know, maybe you always wanted to do an action film. Maybe you didn't necessarily anticipate doing one with a 90-something year old.

[00:03:27] It definitely, yeah, it wasn't exactly an idea I was sitting on my whole life. It sort of, it emerged when it emerged in the fallout kind of of this incident that inspired the movie. But yeah, I'm really glad that it turned out that way is what I'll say.

[00:03:42] Yes, I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, about that incident that kind of sparked all of this because what we see in the film, honestly, it's super relatable. And not just with those who are, you know, elderly.

[00:03:56] I feel like people are falling for similar scams every single day. Yeah, I feel like it's all getting increasingly insidious in terms of how hard it is to know, you know, what you're dealing with because it's just evolving so quickly.

[00:04:10] The incident that inspired the movie was a scam call very similar to the one portrayed in the movie where someone called my grandma pretending to be me, saying they'd been in a car accident. They did a woman, she was pregnant, you know, pretty much all of those details.

[00:04:24] And my family, my grandma, for whatever reason, really got duped by it that day. And my family also got convinced. And it was just kind of chaos trying to figure out where I was and how to how to, you know, quote unquote, bail me out.

[00:04:36] And then they finally reached me and realized I was asleep. I think, you know, my grandma had been living alone in her 90s for the first time in her entire life. She'd been married to my grandpa for 70 years.

[00:04:47] And she was in this period where she was kind of like relishing her independence a little bit for the first time, but also kind of starting to feel her age in new ways. And so this happened kind of right in the soup of that moment in life.

[00:05:03] And so I think for me, it just got me thinking about her and kind of her strength and her tenacity and her frustration sometimes with sort of where she was at. And this moment got me, you know, thinking, what if she had sent the money?

[00:05:20] What if she had gone out to get it back? Like I wouldn't put that past her for a second. And so it became an excuse to write something that celebrates her grit and her tenacity and also kind of reckons with the things she was reckoning with

[00:05:34] and the things that I feel like I was probably reckoning with or I was reckoning with in my 20s and at various transitional moments in my life. I like to say the movie is not about old age as much as it's about aging,

[00:05:46] because I do think each character has a version of that. You know, Thelma's obviously is the most central and the most extreme in some ways. But I think Daniel in his own way is going through kind of

[00:05:59] a transitional moment of his own and as are the parents kind of caught in between. So it just really got my wheels turning and got me excited to try to write something that celebrates her in that way, because she's always just been such a fixture of my life

[00:06:12] and such an important person to me. So out of something bad or almost really bad came, you know, something that I got excited about and thought could be really interesting. And I hope, yeah, relatable, but also kind of fun and a unique pairing of things

[00:06:27] if they worked together, which was always the question. Oh, it's widely relatable. I mean, I instantly think about my own grandmother. She's my last remaining grandparent who is still with us. And so she's been living on her own for, gosh,

[00:06:44] like 20 some years since my family and I came to the United States. As I watch this, I think about her as she's taking the trip to Walgreens by herself through like crazy intersections in a suburb in Illinois.

[00:06:58] I think about her as she navigates trying to speak with people in English, even though she does not speak English herself. And just how that is like a Tom Cruise Mission Impossible challenge for her. Exactly. Every single day. Exactly.

[00:07:12] That was the whole, that's what got me so excited about writing. It was like finding a way to treat the everyday as an action movie, trying to lean into kind of that fragility and that vulnerability

[00:07:24] and zero in on kind of the bravery of doing things in your everyday life that might seem easy, but can actually be incredibly challenging and can take a lot of courage. It can take a lot of dedication.

[00:07:37] And I feel the same way, like watching my grandma move through the world is impressive and stressful and all of those things all at once, just because she doesn't want to slow down, but her body is not exactly at the place she would hope it would be.

[00:07:51] And so that naturally becomes its own hero's journey in a way, just kind of getting through the day, getting through the city, getting through the things you need to do. And so I'm glad you said that because that really is,

[00:08:04] that alchemy is what got me sort of excited about it and felt like a way in. That's one of those frustrating things about life where you can still be mentally there and sound, but you're not moving as well as you used to.

[00:08:20] And other people aren't looking at you in the same way too. I mean, we see it with this family where you have to call me if you want to go somewhere. You have to wear this band so we know where you are.

[00:08:31] And yes, I'm guilty of that myself. And me too. Telling my grandmother, why are you doing that? No, you have family around here. We can help you. And she's like, but I've been doing it on my own for like 80 some years myself. I don't need you right now.

[00:08:47] It's hard to give that up, I think. Yeah, it feels like a defeat or something to say you can't do this thing that you want. And why now? I've been able to do this my whole life. This is who I am. I'm capable. I'm self-sufficient.

[00:09:02] And I think it's very existentially threatening to be suddenly unable to do things that do feel so elemental to how you live your life. Which I think is just one of the great aspects of this film.

[00:09:16] And in you portraying that bravery and just that strength and really just the drive to still want to do so much for yourself. What would you say was some of the most valuable things that you gained about?

[00:09:31] I mean, you got to work with June Squibb on this film, who is just a legend in her own ways. And is a spry woman who's ready for anything. But I mean, you also got to work with the late Richard Roundtree on this.

[00:09:47] You had so many just fantastic elderly people around you. What were some of those main takeaways that you got from working with them and maybe even hearing their stories about life? Yeah, it was amazing to work with them.

[00:10:29] I felt really, really lucky to work with both of them. June was kind of a... She's the best and she has such a... She is that character in so many ways. Obviously not exactly, but she is someone who like... She doesn't stop. She doesn't stop working.

[00:10:44] She doesn't stop moving. She doesn't stop living her life. And I think watching her do that well into her 90s and to be doing the lead in a movie at that age was really inspiring to see.

[00:10:57] And I think also just set the bar really high for all of us. Like just watching June be such a pro and she never dropped a line. She just was like... I mean, everybody drops lines. Like forget about age. Like that's just the thing. But she really didn't.

[00:11:12] She took preparation so seriously. Which is something I definitely take away from my experience working with her. She knows herself. She knows the time she needs to do the thing right. And she said to me, she's like, I can't memorize lines instantly. And that's not age-related.

[00:11:26] That's just actor tendency. She was like, I know it takes me a minute to get the lines. So I studied them very hard. I do it again and again and again. And I give myself enough time to really know the script backwards and forwards.

[00:11:37] So by the time I'm there, I'm good. And I would see her occasionally in her trailer just like with her glasses on, with the script under... She's just so focused and has such a process. Both really knows herself, I think, and knows her limitations.

[00:11:50] But also those limitations are smaller than you might expect. I really went through the experience of the character all over again, making the movie with June. Which was that me and my producers, Zoe Wirth and Chris Kaye, who've been on this thing from the start.

[00:12:03] And I really do credit with getting it made. They and I were always so concerned about June's well-being and her safety and all of that. And so we were very stressed and we were very thoughtful about how can we make the days as doable as possible.

[00:12:18] And throughout the shoot, she kind of kept surprising us. Where we realized, oh wow, June actually can do this thing. June can drive this scooter. Obviously, there's still going to be a lot of safeguards in place.

[00:12:28] But it was almost like a very meta version of the experience of me and my grandma, the character and his grandma, and then us on set with June. So June was a very, very cool person to work with. And Richard too. I mean, Richard was really, really lovely.

[00:12:46] He was a really warm, kind guy who I think everybody loved being around. He had a cigar tent on the movie where he would just go sit and during his breaks, he would just smoke his cigar and sit in his little tent. And it was amazing.

[00:13:00] His little tent. Yeah, exactly. We were like, we can't do much, but we can do that. That way we can get set up. But he was great. He was another guy who just, I think he was really excited to do this because it was a

[00:13:11] chance to also show something a little different, to show a softer side, to play kind of a more vulnerable character than he had gotten the opportunity to do in the past. And he really brought that warmth to the set and he brought that kindness.

[00:13:23] And I think he made everybody feel good around him. Working with Richard made you feel good about yourself. You were just like, this guy is just so great to be around and such a good spirited energy and just so cool.

[00:13:37] Like he was cool and he was funny and he was warm and a great guy. We didn't know at the time this would be his last movie. There was no real indication that he was ill. And I guess he may not have been at the time.

[00:13:50] I'm not sure of the timeline exactly. But yeah, he passed away about a year after the fact. And I think it happened quickly, but he was able to watch the movie before he passed.

[00:13:58] And so I was really glad to know that he got to see his work in it because I think he's really wonderful in it. That's very sweet. I'm happy that you got to share all of that with him. Me too.

[00:14:07] I was, I was, yeah, it was, I was really happy that he got to see it. Of course, there are so many great comedic moments in this film. The gadgets that you get to you hook them up with the scooter, as you mentioned, like

[00:14:19] getting the walkie talkies with the earpieces. I thought that that was all so immensely creative. But I also do love that you take time to give these characters a sense of reflection. Thelma discusses in a very similar vein, as you said, with your own grandmother losing

[00:14:39] her husband and wishing she had more time on her own and not liking that it took that long for it to come all for, you know, her health to, you know, not be keeping up with her as much.

[00:14:52] Of course, they check in on their friend who they see is, is lonely and is starting to kind of go in incorporating all of that. How do you view aging and how are you and maybe others in your life kind of viewing

[00:15:08] these next phases in life that maybe don't sound as appealing as some of the ones in the past, but hopefully it's all a grand new adventure for you all. I hope so too. I'll say that.

[00:15:20] And I certainly wouldn't claim to be an expert, but in my, in my experience, just, you know, watching my grandma go through it, you know, she's been quote unquote old since I was a kid. Like she was, she's 103 now.

[00:15:31] So she was like in her seventies, sixties, seventies when I was born. You know, I, I've never known her as a person who isn't technically old, but I would also say like the phases of that, that part of her life had many distinct phases and that

[00:15:44] being old isn't a monolith. It's not one thing. It's not, it varies person to person. It varies within that time period for a given person. And to me, it just feels like, and, and, you know, I think it's probably naive to think

[00:15:56] I could strike this myself, but I aspire to try to find some balance between, I think the, the gusto of, of pushing your boundaries and pushing your limits and being like, I can do, I can keep active. I can keep moving.

[00:16:11] I can keep living my life while also trying to find a way to integrate kind of what the Ben character talks about, which is we are in what we were. We are a little more limited now and it's okay to accept help while still hanging on

[00:16:24] to who you are. And I think that's hard thing for, for everybody. It's a hard thing for me going from my twenties to my thirties about like, oh, okay, well,

[00:16:31] here's really who I thought I was going to be and what I thought I was going to be like, and here's kind of who I think I might actually be and how can I get those things to integrate?

[00:16:39] And so I do think, I do think it's about balance. I do think it's way easier to see it in other people than in yourself. So I hope that I'll listen to people when they tell me things if they know me well, but

[00:16:52] yeah, I think that would be that those would be at least the things on my mind. The way I'm thinking about it right now. I'm going to check in with you in 20, 30 years. And if you're a grumpy old man, then I'm going to remind you of this conversation.

[00:17:04] Please do because it could happen. You know, I'm not making any promises. I want, I'm going to do my best. I'll appreciate the reminder. Of course, Josh, I just want to thank you so very much for your time today. I am.

[00:17:16] It was a pleasure to speak with you and thank you again for such a lovely film. I mean, I think a lot of people are really going to enjoy this one. Oh, thank you. Really nice talking to you. Really appreciate it. Hey, everyone.

[00:17:27] Thank you so much for listening to MS ASICs interview with the director and writer for Thelma Josh Margolin here on the next best picture podcast. Thelma is now currently playing in theaters from Magnolia pictures. You have been listening to the next best picture podcast.

[00:17:40] We are proud to be part of the evergreen podcast network and you can subscribe to us anywhere where you subscribe to podcasts. Be sure to leave us a review on Apple podcasts and let us know what you think of the show.

[00:17:49] We really appreciate your feedback and your support, which you can also lend on over at Patreon for one dollar minimum a month. You'll get some exclusive podcast content from us. Thank you all so much for listening. As always, we will see you all next time.

[00:18:45] Hello, this is Gary Choucault welcoming you to check out the French history podcast. Our main show covers the history of France from the first humans until present. If you like Mike Duncan's The History of Rome and wanted a similar program covering the land

[00:19:00] of beauty, culture and love, we are exactly that. We also host world renowned scholars who have delivered guest episodes on their specialties, including 18th century pirates, revolutionary booksellers in 20th century Paris, the special friendship between the Marquis de Lafayette and Thomas Jefferson, and numerous others.

[00:19:22] Learn what you love and listen to the French history podcast today.