However, women farmers continue to be disadvantaged when it comes to access to agricultural land ownership, compared to men. This, often, further denies them their rightful recognition as farmers which in turn, inhibits them from accessing the welfare benefits that are entitled to farmers.
Lack of reliable data and poor policy framework are some of the key factors contributing to the disempowerment of women farmers.
In this episode of Land of a Billion, we speak with Shipra Deo, Director of Women's Land Rights at Landesa India and Pranab Ranjan Choudhury, Researcher and Founder Center for Land Governance to understand the various challenges that deny women farmers access to land rights and the hurdles they face while being recognized as a farmer.
About The Guests
Shipra Deo leads Landesa’s work for gender-equal and inclusive land governance in India. She is passionate about the gender dimension of social development and specializes in designing and implementing gender-responsive strategies and programmes including those related to land. In recent years she has done intensive research on inheritance by women and gendered aspects of land laws.
Pranab is a researcher and consultant on natural resources management and governance, with more than 25 years of experience. First as a land use scientist with the Indian Council of Agriculture Research and later as an independent practitioner, he has worked with governments, donors, NGOs, and communities across South Asia, across landscapes, uses, and tenures. He also founded Center for land Governance in 2015.
About The Podcast
What should you expect from this podcast series?
‘Land of a Billion’ brings you expert conversations about the most contentious of the holy roti-kapda-makaan trinity – the makaan over our heads, and the larger ecosystem that governs it.
From administrative tussles to understanding the conflicts on ground, catch these episodes every alternate Friday for a rundown on the latest charcha around land and property rights in India. In case you missed it, you can also catch up on Season 1 of this series here.
Hosted by Bhargavi Zaveri, a researcher interested in land and access to finance, Land of a Billion is a fortnightly podcast series produced in association with the Property Rights Research Consortium.
Don’t forget to catch the next episode, which would be the last in the series, where we’ll have an interesting conversation on the intersection of climate change, agriculture, and property rights with Rachel McMonagle, Landesa's Climate Change and Land Tenure Specialist, and Krutika Ravishankar, Co-founder of Farmers for Forests.
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[00:00:00] We aim to bring you expert conversations about the most contentious of the Holy Roti Kapraha
[00:00:27] The opportunity to bring you to the community, that is the Macan over our heads and the larger ecosystem that governs it.
[00:00:33] This podcast is produced in association with the Property Rights Research Consortium supported by Omidya Network India.
[00:00:40] I am Bargavee, a researcher interested in Land and Access to Finance and your host for this season.
[00:00:50] When it comes to Land Ownership and Access, developing and developed countries do many things differently,
[00:00:58] right from preserving land records to building institutions and forcing property rights, very many differences across countries.
[00:01:06] However, if there is one common feature on property ownership and access that binds all countries like Tolkien with put it as green that rules the mall,
[00:01:15] it is the gender gap in access and ownership of land.
[00:01:20] While there is wide variation across countries in this gender gap, men are more likely to own property than women almost everywhere.
[00:01:28] For example in India and NCA year survey shows that while women constitute 42% of the agricultural labor force, they own less than 2% of its farmland.
[00:01:39] Why does this happen? How is it so consistent across geographies? Has it changed over time and how does this gender gap affect women's social, economic status and their quality of life?
[00:01:50] To break down the social phenomena, underlying this consistent trend, we speak to two guests here today.
[00:01:57] We have with us Shipra Dev, who leads Land ESA's work for gender equal and inclusive land governance in India.
[00:02:04] Shipra specializes in designing and implementing gender responsive strategies and development programs including those related to land.
[00:02:11] Her work in the past two decades has focused on expanding opportunities for rural women and girls, enabling them to have more control over their lives.
[00:02:19] We also have with us, Brennan of Chowthree, who is a researcher and consultant on natural resource management and governance with more than 25 years of experience.
[00:02:27] Brennan has founded the Center for Land Governance in 2015, which is known for its policy and action-oriented research on inclusive land tenure.
[00:02:35] I know the Center for Land Governance as the home of the India land and development conference, a fantastic platform that actually aggregates great research all over the country on issues of land policy.
[00:02:47] Welcome Shipra and Brennan up to the land of a billion partners.
[00:02:50] Thank you, Bargaret. Thank you for having us today.
[00:02:53] Thank you, Bargaret.
[00:02:55] Sure, so you know let's begin with perception. So Shipra, in one of your papers I remember you had described a fantastic experience where you asked a group of agronomists to draw a farmer and most of them drew male figures.
[00:03:08] And this is also true for a lot of us when we picture a farmer more often than not we are thinking of a man.
[00:03:14] This is despite the 2009 census suggesting that actually four out of five women in rural India, working agriculture.
[00:03:21] And you tell us what a shameless perception of men always being equal to farmers.
[00:03:26] Are their social legal factors that are contributed to a perception? What is this identity deprivation that is going on here?
[00:03:33] I will begin with the pre-colonial periods when the land was controlled by communities themselves and everyone in the community both men and women had collective rights over the produce of land.
[00:03:48] So in those times everyone's interests would take a care of and women were co-sharers in every field. So, probably there was absolutely no need to talk of women's independent rights in those settings.
[00:04:01] What happened was that during the colonial times the Britishers were more interested in collecting revenue and land, especially in agricultural land was the major source of revenue to them.
[00:04:14] So, they introduced the idea of individual ownership of land and in this new dispensation it were only men who were given properitory titles to land.
[00:04:26] So women therefore were automatically excluded from their customer issues and they became increasingly dependent on men.
[00:04:35] Several scholars have observed that this shift from community ownership and shared access of natural resources to increasing fragmentation and privatization,
[00:04:46] let's to women being increasingly divorced from access and control over land and resources.
[00:04:51] So, can you what happened was that it was again during the colonial times when the codification of laws became.
[00:04:59] So when laws were codified in India, including inheritance laws and other renew laws, it wasn't just the India's customary practices and legal doctrines that were getting codified,
[00:05:11] but in fact there were rules that were borrowed from British or other laws.
[00:05:17] So even British women in those times hadn't had the laws that spoke of the rights to property,
[00:05:23] so it was highly unlikely for British authorities to concede to women's equal rights to land.
[00:05:30] Thirdly, what happens is fee as a society presume that land belongs to the household and that household heads are men and that everyone's interest in the household are congruent.
[00:05:43] This actually causes women's independent identity to be subhumed in the identity of the household which is considered to be male-headed.
[00:05:54] And at the time of independence also when the land reforms were introduced in India, the popular principle was land to the Taylor and that Taylor was almost always considered a man.
[00:06:06] So as a result, what happens is all these presumptions together are reflected in the policies of colonial times,
[00:06:14] and they have been carried forward into the land reforms which were enacted post-independence in India.
[00:06:20] As a result, most of the modern day policies and laws which govern land today, and these includes policies related to land distribution by the government,
[00:06:33] and the effect of ceiling, for feature of surplus land, fragmentation of agricultural holdings, and most importantly in heritance laws.
[00:06:42] They have all remained largely conservative with respect to rights of women.
[00:06:48] And together this gamut of laws have really ensured that the existing patriarchal holdover land, continuous generation of the generation,
[00:06:59] and remains marginalization in land ownership remains as such.
[00:07:03] So that's what is the social and legal factors which come into play?
[00:07:08] Thanks, Shapra.
[00:07:09] I think it's a very good point to begin with which was land ownership always like this.
[00:07:17] I mean, was it always so skewed in favour of men or have things changed?
[00:07:21] And one thing that strikes me about the narrative that you mentioned about how codification of laws and really, actually recording land rights,
[00:07:31] led to this skewed ownership structure.
[00:07:34] A couple of things, one is when we say that actually India started codifying laws once we had enough tangible of an idea that we are going to get independent soon.
[00:07:47] We actually departed from several practices that were prevalent in India before the codification process started.
[00:07:54] So for example, our constitution looks remarkably different.
[00:07:57] We took into account many social realities and I wonder why we did not take into account a social reality of community ownership that existed prior to codification.
[00:08:07] So that strikes me as important as how we actually been maybe there was some selective recognition of social realities at that time.
[00:08:15] Maybe there was nobody was standing up for this cause at that time.
[00:08:19] And we just ended up continuing with the same sort of practices of land record ownership that the British followed.
[00:08:28] And that contrast strikes me as interesting, that while some social realities were decrygnized in codification others weren't.
[00:08:35] And Pranab you know this right which is that the lack of reliability data on land ownership among women.
[00:08:42] And you know there is a lot of work that has been done on this run but you have explained previously that how different data shows you know this proportion of land ownership by women very differently.
[00:08:52] Who do you tell us how these different data sets come together and does it reflect one true picture or do we see different pictures depending on which scholarship you're reading at any given point of time.
[00:09:03] Thanks for giving me a very important question.
[00:09:06] While the documentation codification definitely widened that gap and made it clearly visible during colonial and postcolonial regimes.
[00:09:14] The thinking around that was already there and in a way around that the whole system of dauri marriage.
[00:09:21] So always something how you control the property, how you control the women, the power and patriarchy was trying to know sustain that.
[00:09:29] I think that same reflection to anywhere I arrived on conscious way or subconscious way is reflected in the land right data.
[00:09:37] I think this data sets are just already gender dimension to segregate but they have never looked at seriously this whole land tenure dynamics looking at how important it is for women to land.
[00:09:52] So what has happened what has been there that has been recorded and if you look at the different data sets.
[00:09:57] So they also the way they define that if I based on this women land ownership particularly based on their own understanding.
[00:10:05] When you talk about land ownership but if you look at the data sets they hardly record land ownership and even if you look at land ownership for example we are talking about the digital interlators for testing program.
[00:10:16] Research that in GR made that also records something which is recorded in the title and as all of you know the ownership and the way India's title has been a different.
[00:10:27] What is there actually there is a land people relationship so as all of you know it is a continuum.
[00:10:33] So somewhere you have a right or a bundle of right to call it you have right to own an alien it you have right to use you have right to manage you have right to access.
[00:10:42] So if you look at this different data sets which record land in the name of men and women they also measure this no differently.
[00:10:52] And as a result of which I do to talk about the daily repeat data that NCL looked at no women farmer side as 2% so it varies widely from 2% to 60% like print x talks about 60% somewhere this little family health census talks about how to survey and if it is the result report is out talk about around 35 to 40% ISGS sometimes talk about 11% agriculture census talks about 14% socio-economic expenses put a different figure.
[00:11:21] And this a crusade survey that Bina agro has been quoting also put a different figure and interestingly if you look at the matter data the way the president are very different for example if you look at India human development survey they measure at individual level not at a house on number.
[00:11:38] And they see that in a every household which are the three individuals running the land and out of them how many are women so in that context they put it as 11% so it is a completely higher like what percentage of women are there in the.
[00:11:54] Three members list that own land top three members list that own land in a family so this is different.
[00:12:01] If you look at agriculture census it look at something called operational holding.
[00:12:05] Operational holding is not exactly the ownership this is something which is the kind of no ownership plus tenant relationship.
[00:12:12] Suppose if you own some land five acres and you are losing in two acres so it becomes seven acres and you lose out three acres.
[00:12:21] So four acres is your operational holding but five acres is the land owner sit there while and you want.
[00:12:27] And interestingly in India the land the operational land holding are at spur the ownership of the head of the household and the gender is at the head of the household.
[00:12:38] If the head of the household is a women they need to take care as it is not a woman.
[00:12:43] It will not take care of them so in that case only where the head of the household is women they are the operational holding as treated as.
[00:12:51] You know we may land and that would figure us no about 14%.
[00:12:55] So similarly the different figures are there but interestingly but it's happening over the year that we have been observing an analogy data with every census.
[00:13:05] We find a one interesting thing that it is increasing every census that every survey though it is very slow but it is increasing.
[00:13:13] We also see a very interesting pattern from north to south we see most of the states in south they have comparatively higher women land owners if they are more.
[00:13:22] So just looking at women land right as said while data are complex between the data and between the geography and between no other variables.
[00:13:30] We see a lot of interesting plants which also explains why in some states or some states are having better land owners.
[00:13:38] And overall we also see that not that trend is increasing.
[00:13:43] So just to summarize while we always say there is lack of reliable data in India but I think India is a country where data is really diversified rich and different sources are there.
[00:13:55] That sources if you go deeper into that provide a interesting landscape to research and analyze and understand what is in the land.
[00:14:03] But at the same time overall it gives a very confusing space and if you look at the standard data that we look to report as dizzy this 14% is too small so that there is a long I think low road to achieve.
[00:14:17] So what I am hearing you saying is that depending on what is being measured the results will be different right and I think that makes.
[00:14:25] In due to sense which is that if you are measuring operational holding or if you are measuring by ownership or if you are measuring just in terms of the just right to use land maybe the results will be different.
[00:14:38] If you are measuring number of women as a percentage of the household the results will be different and depending on what you are measuring the results will be different.
[00:14:46] Hearing you saying in correct me from wrong is that one consistent trend that emerges is that with every census it does seem like women are gaining more access to land this trend is slow but it is happening and that's probably a good sign maybe it varies across state the speed is different across states.
[00:15:05] And there are different reasons for that and and that actually gives us the perfect natural experiment right.
[00:15:10] So for example if we see that some regions are actually making slower progress than others then what is going on in those regions that is slowing down the progress is something that we can see.
[00:15:20] And we will come to the policy interventions are actually expedite or slow down progress when it comes to women's access to land and land ownership but before that I want to ask.
[00:15:31] And to ask she pray actually that we began this conversation with you know the perception of women as farmers or the non perception of women as farmers we think it makes a difference to the reality of women when they're deprived of their identity as farmers and how.
[00:15:45] Yeah absolutely by the way when women are not recognized as farmers they get actually ignored in the entire agriculture ecosystem and their contribution to agriculture becomes just an extension of their unpaid household work.
[00:16:03] Now if you look at the textbooks of pre-primaries school you know and we are teaching the pre-primaries students people who help us and when we are making the picture of a farmer it's almost always a man and it's true for you know other workforce as well.
[00:16:18] You know when we picture a driver, a doctor, a soldier all of them are invariably men.
[00:16:24] Sorry I'm going to say I'm really tempted I can't resist this one the only women farmer that comes to mind you know when you stay this is the poster of mother India and that too you know if you remember that poster it is that of the main plot you know the main actor in that movie I don't know her name.
[00:16:42] But yeah I know this right by they show her dragging a flower in the field and that's such a sad picture but it seems to me that actually that at least in popular culture as well it seems to be the perception that you know ginger man,
[00:16:59] Jack is always somehow linked to men and I can literally just think of one film poster that actually shows a woman as a farmer.
[00:17:06] And you know what happens is you know when we see a farmer as a man portrait everywhere including you know the advertisements that we see for agriculture,
[00:17:16] a link would say for fertilizer and advertisements that we see from banking institutions which are to extend credit to farmers.
[00:17:24] We will always see men and men picture here when we see you know hoardings for agricultural fairs it's all men.
[00:17:34] So what happens is when we grow up and we are conditioned to see men as only farmers it's the same people with the same conditioning.
[00:17:44] Who one day become policy makers and when we design policies with these mindsets we tend to target policies only for men.
[00:17:53] Then women are not included in agricultural training so that's an extension services when extension people they go to the villages to organize meetings with farmers they just conduct meetings with men and they tell their technologies and products to men and women are just left out.
[00:18:10] Similarly agricultural research is also not targeted to women's needs and is not at you and to their perspectives and knowledge.
[00:18:19] What happens is when women do not own land they also are not able to benefit from various agriculture support programs such as credit subsidies, crop insurance and marketing facilities all of these continue to be linked to land ownership.
[00:18:36] If you go to a wholesale Monday today in any city you will see that it's just you know, sales space it's just immense to me it's very difficult for a rural women who is producing in the cultural products to come to that Monday and you know negotiate price with with a male or the and then you know being able to sell I have myself visited these Monday as and if seen how difficult it is for women.
[00:19:03] So just participate in those Monday processes. So if for example, you know there is a policy that helps women farmers sell their produce within the Monday and transparent ways.
[00:19:17] These things will be helpful but you know just because our policy makers tend to see only men as farmers all these needs of women farmers continue to get ignored.
[00:19:28] Now why women do not receive the identity and the dignity and the opportunities they deserve.
[00:19:34] It's also important to see that because of all these blocks they are very often unable to contribute fully to the economy.
[00:19:43] And this results in high costs, both in terms of economic development as well as human development for the nation.
[00:19:50] There is this very often cited data by FAU that if women farmers had equal access to resources credit farming equipment and new technologies.
[00:20:01] Heels could increase by 20 to 30 percent per household and countries could experience an increase in agricultural output.
[00:20:10] I think 2.5 to 4 percent but you know, Vargamy beyond these numbers and these intricate connections.
[00:20:17] I find that land rights for women are critically important because they change the way women are viewing the society.
[00:20:27] And also the way women view themselves. You know these land rights, they really dig down to the root of gender inequality, radically and quitely uprooting it overdunning it.
[00:20:40] And just because land is such a powerful asset with its ownership women get the power to get control of their own lives to a great extent.
[00:20:51] And that's why I think it's really important to work on this one thing if we aim for gender equality.
[00:20:59] I honestly think that you know actually women, I mean be associate professions with different genders right so for example I agree that I do not think of a woman when I when you mentioned the word farmer.
[00:21:10] But then I can think of when you mentioned the word teacher for example or when you mentioned other informal works such as women carrying water where there is no tap water you know women walking for kilometers and carrying water.
[00:21:25] You don't really imagine men being in that position. We imagine women, many people call it romanticizing the idea that women are able to carry you know multiple pots of balanced multiple pots of water on their head, etc.
[00:21:37] But it seems to me that actually we associate genders with different professions associating the male gender irrespective of the reality with farming actually has real consequences and deprivation of the many benefits that the state provides for example.
[00:21:53] Women capacity building when it comes to training because the atmosphere is never designed or that trainings are never designed to especially include women.
[00:22:02] So I wonder is it is this a special case of India or do we see that this is different elsewhere? What has brought up thing about this view find that the practices that the perception is India specific emerging market specific or do you see other countries designing things specially for women farmers.
[00:22:21] Yeah, bargaining. This is quite interesting again because if you look at the farmer you see a sense of a man or think of a man he based coming in but if you look at a agricultural labourer if you look at paddy transplanting if you look at weeding which are the like the more pense taking processes always women photographs come to mind or picture comes to mind.
[00:22:45] I think when you have you must be many of you who could be hearing it must be watching this famous Spanish, the netflix serial money heist and the money heist there is a song.
[00:22:57] The title song is titled song though it is being now celebrated as a renaissance song of freedom.
[00:23:05] There is the title song which is celebrated Italy and now it is going around the world thanks to money heist also earlier ministerial movement.
[00:23:13] They know pattern is that song as a song of liberation but if you go to the history of that song that history of that song is no link to the Italy's paddy cultivating women.
[00:23:25] They are the agricultural labourers who would be doing transplanting and waiting in paddy fields and they would sing this song to support each other and dream of getting liberated one day.
[00:23:37] So that is something I run equal even in the farmer there is a farming hierarchy there is a land-owning farmer there is a tenon farmer there is agriculture labourer.
[00:23:45] So tenon farmers are always poor small farmers though those we call peasants are not珠entry around winter revolution so that image is also there in the literature of the people studying that.
[00:23:56] And also when it talk of agricultural labourer thinking about women.
[00:23:59] This is something which is not only a characteristic of India if you go to neighboring countries I have been working in very closely in other South Asian countries Nepal Bangladesh and there I see I think Pakistan is very different but if you look at Nepal and Bangladesh most of the farmers are with them.
[00:24:15] If you look at farming the more agro-ecological the more organic the more diversified the more sustainable farming is more women are doing that.
[00:24:25] The more mechanized more commercial, more tractors more input the farming is it is more men doing that.
[00:24:33] So in a way if you look at the sustainability climate change resilience if women are farmers I'll just extend you know separaj argument that is not a twenty thirty percent extra yield but a better farming is always buffering.
[00:24:44] Because we talk about some nickel land husbandry but this husbandry is more done by women than men.
[00:24:52] So this is something which also must be recognized again just to connect what separaj is telling see if you look at the way government support farmers.
[00:25:02] So nowadays you must be knowing government is supporting farmer through something called DBT direct benefit transfer where farmers are registered in the state farming portals every state have agricultural farm up portals and where farmers have registered themselves and all the subsidies all the grants all the benefits would go to them through direct benefit transfer process.
[00:25:21] Unfortunately in all these not registration you have to submit land records as a result of which most of the money even if it is feminized farming like a track and some other states we may not doing the farming money goes to the mail.
[00:25:35] So this is in a way put women at a completely disadvantaged position business manager farmer.
[00:25:40] So even if you are putting same labor same effort because you have limited access to support services and credit you know end up becoming a loser.
[00:25:49] So women farmers are also completely neglected and you know putting it a very competitive decision with position globally we see the access to agriculture land.
[00:26:00] Controllable agricultural land is go decided by religious and cultural practices and to a great extent they have been perpetuated when the law and formalization also coming in.
[00:26:12] Much of the debate around land record management is about formalization and the other the lack of it right and what you are suggesting is that actually formalization may end up entrenching existing inequalities even perpetuating them more.
[00:26:27] What are some of the policy measures that you think might actually help women get their fair share of land what do you think and states or government or when local level administrations can do to make sure that they get their fair share of access.
[00:26:43] Just to extend the point no or give you are making land record, making the adding the name in land record.
[00:26:49] So something know all of us we know that one of the measures that is being so much as big success and as best practices or good practices is joint cycling.
[00:26:59] We started with 1980s we are planning commission and suggested that and we are restricted to end by with joint settling be it new government land.
[00:27:09] That is to be a lot of grant or property farmers to buy the land or so to add women.
[00:27:15] So what has happened here you see we are like the case of joint settling in a very sad we found most of the joint settling and 95% where around home state land.
[00:27:25] But here we have a agriculture land joint settling school is so this is something know we have to see how if you are really trying to do policies change and then again another thing is happening when it look at the stamp duty reduction.
[00:27:37] So we have to do a lot of things in the state of taking stamp duty reduction in the favor of women or completely waving the stamp duty because in India the stamp duty is very high I think we have also written a lot about that 7 to 8% so people try to avoid stamp duty by registering land in the women's.
[00:27:52] But it is mostly happening in some urban area.
[00:27:54] So whatever policy change is taking place they are trickleed down to women in certain ecosystems in certain land uses in certain geographies not across.
[00:28:03] But done I think one thing I think no compromise the fact that farming is a profession and farming is not only linked to land ownership but to a land to your continuum.
[00:28:15] For example where you get a crop loan see all the farming entitlement crop loan insurance fertilizer subsidy market linkages everything is linked to crop not to land.
[00:28:27] So the crop could be seasonal could be animal could be in a couple of years most of the cases it is less than a year.
[00:28:33] And when agriculture level are tenant is farming in that land if you can recognize as a farmer in respect to that land owner sit and extend them these advantages of create it.
[00:28:46] So this insurance and everything so there what happens this farmer becomes more competitive and gradually they start earning more one start earning more one just start become successful they are actually degrading the society.
[00:29:01] They also the income also increases and they would be able to buy a flat later.
[00:29:06] So one of the clear low-hanging fruit is that identify farming, project profession not dealing it from land ownership and link all the entitlements of the farmer to the farming profession.
[00:29:19] So when a women is farming let the women irrespective of the land owner sit further the land is there in our name or not you extend the benefit student that is number one I think model landlaging act that committee has brought in can in a big way in help that.
[00:29:33] Second is that extend joint tackling to agriculture land no when he states are trying to do that like luxury book the original to a great extent in Marustro but again it will get limited to mostly housing thing.
[00:29:46] So how we can extend this you know joint tackling to agriculture land just adding the women name in the land record is not enough because that also does not make them fight against the power and patriotic control so access is not equal to control.
[00:30:01] But I would say access is an entry point to control so if you can have little access in the name of no joint tackling adding land record be a joint tackling will be now more per west because if we look at in India's forest right act it talks about joint title and about 40 million hectares of agriculture now forest land is going to be under forest right act.
[00:30:20] So that way most of the tribal women and the other women living close to forest will be able to access that similarly we can extend joint tackling to know other agriculture land so I think these two things if you can really want to help women farm.
[00:30:35] Identifying farming as a profession.
[00:30:37] Dealing it to from land ownership and based on the land tenure like the huge and management of leasing land position.
[00:30:44] Externative all legal rights and then expanding the joint tackling will be the two for easy entry points to make women farm more competitive and better recognized and having their dignity.
[00:30:59] Gauded Shri Pradewano coming here on policy interventions that you think could help this.
[00:31:04] As Pranav mentioned so emphatically about joint tithling it really takes me to the earlier point which I was making about the mindset of policy makers and whenever we talk about joint tithling it really takes me on to the example that I see in the predestate of the predestate has this policy of joint tithling just like several other states.
[00:31:28] But if you go to the policy guidelines I mean the language of the law in which these joint tithlings are issued the language of the law says that if a land is allocated to a man and if the man is married then the name of the wife will also be added to that land allocation.
[00:31:49] Now when I was talking about the mindset of the policy makers this language is just the you know exact depiction of that it really tells us how people even when they are giving joint tithling as a policy they are making a policy on joint tithling.
[00:32:09] They are considering a male to be the primary receiver and a woman just as the appendage to that.
[00:32:18] So I was just you know making that point here but other than this I think even when states have policies related to joint tithling and expansion in land leasing provisions what is more important is recruitment and training of women personals in the revenue departments.
[00:32:38] One is that even the existing revenue officials they need to be trained on the provisions which are there specifically for women and also on the specific issues related to gender.
[00:32:50] And then it is important that the revenue officials working in field comprise of some women officials as well so that the domain itself becomes you know some sort of gender inclusive.
[00:33:04] Then I really think it is important to impart land literacy and awareness to women massively so that they know about their existing rights and can assert them as the dean.
[00:33:18] Secondly I think it is also important for the states to prioritize landless women in the public land distribution efforts whatever they do.
[00:33:29] It is important to enumerate and identify landless women especially from the one the rebel category such as CNS resections and then prioritize land distribution to them.
[00:33:44] And I think it is also important for states to have a gender disaggregated database at all levels and then finally I've been saying that you know gender audit of laws is very important.
[00:33:59] Because in a lot of land laws there are a lot of biases related to women which needs to be addressed and just you know the language you join.
[00:34:12] I think it is just one that I said what happens is when people working in the revenue department read these laws they just get their ideas of you know a male being the main land holder.
[00:34:27] And that's what gets reflected when they do their work in field so I think a group of all these things is really important.
[00:34:38] The recruitment of women in revenue workforce training of existing revenue officials on gender related aspects.
[00:34:48] Let's see your floral women and then prioritizing landless women in land distribution systems I think all of these are really important.
[00:34:57] That's a long wish list but you know I always ask the guests that you know in the spirit of the name of our podcast which is land for billion.
[00:35:07] If you have to pick one core challenge that India needs to focus on and I'm alive you only one because that's the hard part right which one will you prioritize which one will you put your has to be behind.
[00:35:17] To secure land rights for a billion what would that be.
[00:35:20] Is that a very difficult question.
[00:35:26] So what is that I think we need to engage we need to keep you know engaging keep raising this question again and again.
[00:35:34] And trying to put things in the middle for words and they seem I think that is the only if you put one thing I think that engagement is going.
[00:35:42] In that context I see one thing which can really make you know a billion number possible you technology technology has its own limitation technology is always always always.
[00:35:52] I should divide but I see particularly adding women name into the digital in the land record's programs into the India's forest right.
[00:36:02] I have heard records and also to add women name particularly the daughter's name into the land record as for Hindu successors and act these three things can be possible by using technology which is now.
[00:36:14] Possible we know kind of work we are doing around adhars to it kind of work we're doing around health care or cards.
[00:36:21] So there is ways and means to link the records and make it more automated and with India's digitization progress I think we can definitely add a billion women's name not a billion.
[00:36:34] We have to build a billion women's name into land record using technology but as Sifra said this is the entry point it is just enhancing name adding name then it will lead to an honest access then it will lead to an honest control.
[00:36:48] Still long way to go but definitely it can be entry point.
[00:36:51] Shibra one caught challenge I know you have a long wish list but if you had to put you know if you had limited resources as we always all do what could you put those resources in.
[00:37:01] So I think you know one of the first things which I would like to do in land is simplified land laws there really is a huge maze which anyone you know a person like me when we want to go online it becomes really difficult to figure out what applies and but doesn't because every state has a different way.
[00:37:20] Of dealing with land matters so I would really you know think of one thing is you know simplify these land laws so that people are not lost into this huge web and have a clear sort of path.
[00:37:37] Got it great so this is a fantastic conversation thanks Shibra and Prana for being on the land of a billion podcast I hope you enjoyed the conversation as well and I hope our listeners enjoy this too.
[00:37:49] Thank you thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
[00:37:51] Thanks so much.
[00:37:53] Thank you for hosting this conversation today.
[00:37:57] Thanks for tuning into our podcast Land of a billion produced in association with the property rights research consortium don't forget to catch new episodes every alternate Friday where I will bring you a rundown on the latest
[00:38:09] future around land and housing in India. Thanks for listening log on to the quince website and check out our other podcast