Shelley Billinghurst is one of Canada's leading recruitment experts. She's owned and retained a search company whose clients were primarily small- and medium-sized businesses, led the corporate recruiting for two of the world's largest energy extraction companies, owns a boutique recruitment advertising agency, and is the co-host of The Recruitment Flex, Canada's leading podcast about the world of recruitment.
In today's episode, we'll talk about how the country in which Shelley lives, Canada, shares a lot of cultural and business traits as its neighbor to the south, the United States, yet in other ways is more similar to the social democracies common in Europe. Recruiting professionals and talent acquisition technology in Canada follows suit: it is neither the same nor entirely different from what you find in the United States or Europe but, instead, a hybrid of the two.
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[00:00:09] Welcome to the Inside Job Boards and Recruitment Marketplaces podcast. I'm Stephen Rothberg, the founder of College of Crudder Job Search site. At College of Crudder, we believe that every student and recent grad deserves a great career. And I'm Peter Zolman, founding principal of the aim group,
[00:00:26] the leading global business intelligence service for marketplaces and classified advertising companies. We consult with recruitment marketplaces companies and publish aim group recruitment intelligence and a free weekly digest. We also host the annual global recbos conference.
[00:00:44] This is the podcast for you to learn more about how to create, manage and work with general, niche and aggregator job boards and recruitment marketplaces. Hey Peter, good day, hey. Good day, hey. What are you Canadian or something? Well I am. I am dual and I think that
[00:01:05] given who our guest is today that makes like half of the people on the call Canadian. Does that worry you? It doesn't worry me at all. I'm thinking Canada is a good option.
[00:01:17] When I lived in Buffalo, I often used to say the best thing about Buffalo is Toronto. And the best thing about going to Toronto is you could get on the QEW Queen Elizabeth way and drive
[00:01:32] 160 kilometers per hour, which is roughly 100 US and get past like your standing still. And there were always one or two Mounties with people pulled over but they were only pulling over the people who are doing more than, you know,
[00:01:51] 100 miles an hour US. So it didn't really matter. I love Toronto. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful city. And I always thought that the best things about Buffalo were the wings and Stefan Diggs but that's another, that's a Friday night podcast, I think, right?
[00:02:08] Well I used to eat at the place that invented fried chicken wings and you know, every once in a while, the anchor bar, Franken Theresa. I can't remember their last name. Anyway, we've got a guest from Canada. So we, we ought to get to her A and
[00:02:28] God, I can't believe this is all this. I can see her winsing because she should over to use Steven. And she's, she's just going to go get herself a double double after the call. So all these, I presume right for sure for sure, sorry.
[00:02:50] So today's guest. Today's guest is wondering why she took time out from her day to be with us and I think it's because we promised her the winning lot of 649 numbers which is another Canadian reference.
[00:03:04] We're joined here today by Shelley billing hers to the CEO of higher value. And she's also the cohost of one of the best and most entertaining podcasts in our space, the recruitment flex.
[00:03:17] Shelley welcome to the inside job boards and recruitment marketplaces podcast. Well thank you gentlemen. That was quite a bit of torture to endure all the cheesy cheesy outdated Canadian stereotypes.
[00:03:32] But I thought it's your show. I mean, you know, this is probably the 20th episode of the podcast that we have recorded. You are the first one to honestly describe it as torture. So thank you.
[00:03:50] So thank you so much. And that's a cheesy and what else is she say. All true. All true. All true. You're in counter. So we didn't make it. We haven't made a single stampede reference yet. Okay. All right. And now.
[00:04:09] Okay. Well, so we're actually going to talk about recruitment, recruitment marketplaces, job boards, higher value. Higher value higher with an age. I are E. How clever is that, except it makes me think somebody somewhere found had the fear of God put in a higher value.
[00:04:29] But you'll note by the way, Steven did not describe yours as the second most entertaining podcast in the recruitment field. And I take issue with that. But I will do so later.
[00:04:41] Tell us about recruitment flex podcast. Tell us about higher value and how you got into doing this whole podcast thing. You bet. So after 21 years in both corporate recruitment and executive search, I thought there's a hole in the marketplace here.
[00:05:02] So I started my own company, higher value in 2014 with the intention of helping companies that higher between 500 and 10,000 people with everything to do with talent acquisition, including Where's the process broken? What technology are using? What's in your text stack? And how have you organized your talent acquisition team?
[00:05:27] So that's been my life's work. I love it. I absolutely love working with organizations and helping them figure it out so that they can recruit better.
[00:05:43] So that's the story about higher value. And my friend, long time friend, I was actually originally a customer back in the workapolis days. My account manager was this guy named Serge Boudreau.
[00:05:58] So just after the pandemic hit, we were kind of lamenting that there was really nobody in the Canadian market that was talking about the profession of talent acquisition.
[00:06:10] And every time him and I have ever spoken or talked on the phone or just even exchange emails, we always end up talking about talent acquisition. So he said it was his idea. He said,
[00:06:22] We should start a podcast and I'm like, how hard could it be? Famous last words. It is a lot of work but it is our joy. We have number one in Canada for HR podcasts. We started around April of 2020. I can't even listen to those first few episodes.
[00:06:45] So, but you know what? We stayed true to our format which is one nugget of information that talent acquisition person can take back to their asking and apply it to their everyday job.
[00:07:00] So that's where we've come and since then it's just been, it is open up a world of meeting other people that in the pre April 2020 world never would have happened.
[00:07:15] Like even yourselves, like the how well I've gotten to know other influencers and professionals in the industry. Wow, I know it's because of being part of this commitment to the community to elevate talent acquisition.
[00:07:31] Well, if you're talking about influencers and professionals, you clearly must be talking about Stephen because well I'm neither. Let's talk about what you see as the most important trends in recruitment advertising.
[00:07:49] And for recruitment marketplaces, slash job boards and I make a distinction Stephen does not. What do you see as the most important trends coming in the next six months a year and even now?
[00:08:04] So, you know I'll talk first about the Canadian marketplace and you know Canadian culture is the business culture. I mean, you know whether we're talking talent acquisition or the business culture.
[00:08:16] It's very much very risk adverse if I may. Organizations will always wait to see what other people are doing and what ends up happening is what I've seen in my 20 plus years is you see one particular vendor become just dominant in the market.
[00:08:39] And so, you know, through the years of course, you know it was workapolis and then LinkedIn for a little while and then indeed came on this scene in 2012 then you know so we've had a few regional.
[00:08:53] Job boards kind of pop up but again they tend to be more regional. So what I mean by that is zipper cutter for example, they tend to do really well in certain parts of Canada in other parts it's a colossal failure job seekers just they've just they're just not using them.
[00:09:16] Not for lack of advertising I'll tell you that they've really taken their foot off the gas as far as advertising in certainly in the western part of Canada, but I think in the east they they are starting to have some success and some results.
[00:09:32] Then we've got job boards that seem to be really entrenched in a specific province and the example I'd point to is job bill echo so job bill echo pretty much dominates the Quebec market which and you know what let them have it.
[00:09:48] Because I'll tell you doing business according to the laws of the province of Quebec is very different than anywhere else in Canada.
[00:09:56] So it makes sense that they would kind of have their own kind of niche job board and then we have Atlanta Canada another kind of phenomenon is their undying loyalty to career beacon it's like it's almost like the the whole thought of maybe being.
[00:10:17] Disloyal somehow are unpatriotic if you don't advertise your jobs on career beacon, you know it's like well how how could you even. There's a thing not to do this.
[00:10:32] So I think it still holds true at the moment there's no doubt that indeed is owns the lion share in Canada this smaller little niche job boards they pop up and then they kind of fade away.
[00:10:48] They try and get a foothold and just maybe not understanding what it takes to get job secret traffic. We'll be back right after this break. Do you love news about LinkedIn indeed Google and just about every other recruitment tech company out there? Hell yeah I'm Chad I'm cheese.
[00:11:13] We're the Chad and cheese podcast all the latest recruiting news and insights are on our show dripping in snark and attitude subscribe today wherever you listen to your podcasts. We out welcome back to the inside job boards and recruitment market places podcast.
[00:11:36] For the listeners that aren't familiar with the Canadian market or you know sort of how that the US and Canada interact I was really glad that you talked about how Canadians tend to be a little bit more conservative.
[00:11:53] Not conservative in a political sense actually more progressive and liberal than typical Americans are but more conservative and just sort of sitting back and waiting for to see how things are going to shake out like less entrepreneurial less risk taking than the US.
[00:12:11] And one of the things that I'm struck by when listening to the recruitment flex and I listened to every episode so you're going to have to write me a check it's a point.
[00:12:19] But the is is it's a really wonderful sharing of knowledge and wisdom by you and search about not just the Canadian market but just generally and so one of the things that you do really well is talk about how it's different right.
[00:12:37] This is what happens in Canada this is what happens in the US you know during the summer when when you went to the UK and I think you went to Germany and stuff like that like comparing and contrasting.
[00:12:48] So for the benefit of the listeners of this podcast maybe you can spend a minute or two talking about what you see this as the differences between.
[00:12:58] The job board market in Canada the US Europe are their products that are different employers use them differently do candidates use them differently. That's interesting observation and so I will just you know for the sake of enforcing exactly what you're saying.
[00:13:22] I know that American employers are willing to try new things Canadian employers are not. They want tried and true they you know if someone else is doing it then it's okay and then you know then the line landslide will always happen.
[00:13:41] I was actually really surprised yes I was at rec fast at nebworth surrounded by thousands of recruiters mostly from Europe and the UK. What I found though Steven honestly was that their struggles are the same.
[00:14:00] There are certain pockets and countries where technology is embraced and innovation is embraced not willing to hey let's give something a try let's pilot this let's see how it works.
[00:14:13] So I really didn't see what I what I kind of expected was that there would be I thought Europe was like light years ahead of Canada but they really aren't.
[00:14:24] What I did find is that Canada and US is certainly well ahead of Australia as far as the number of job boards job seekers demand for ease of use was much less in Australia I believe and you probably have spoken to our lovely counterparts at tap pod.
[00:14:49] I'm going to say that in terms of technology in recruitment what is a big thing here in Canada and the US is the part of the recruitment process around background verification that's really not an thing.
[00:15:07] And so it's kind of an up and coming technology whereas here it's kind of table stakes that was probably a couple of the things I noticed.
[00:15:16] We found that in some European countries there are still great resistance to the use of ATSs there are countries where in ATS is barely considered.
[00:15:30] So we're going to say that by some of the major multinational international employers so it varies from time to time there's a question about the hot topic in the states right now and by the way you mentioned America but of course Canada is also America.
[00:15:47] We're referring to the states when we talk about America. Big issue in the states right now is pay transparency any action on that at all in Canada or.
[00:16:03] Oh gosh no yeah so Peter you know there hasn't been a day that's gone by since July that I have not continuously had this conversation around pay transparency.
[00:16:17] It is it's started provincially because each province in Canada has the ability to have obviously provincial labor laws so it actually started with Canada's smallest province, Prince Edward Island.
[00:16:32] They passed a long July that requires employers to post in their job ads they must post what the pay ranges now followed close behind that is Canada's most populated province Ontario.
[00:16:46] They had publicly stated that by the end by by the middle of the year they weren't specific on the month that they would also have similar legislation coming through. And so it the train is coming the train has left the station it is absolutely rolling across Canada.
[00:17:04] It's just going to take more time what I can tell you with complete certainty is there is not a single politician on any whether you're in the raining party or the opposing party that is going to say oh no I don't agree with pay transparency or it's but be political suicide.
[00:17:24] So this is coming.
[00:17:27] So pay transparency it's not it's not so simple you know for small to medium enterprise it's pretty straightforward it's a yes or no I've had some companies say fine I'm going to take my toys and go home I'm not going to post my job ads.
[00:17:43] Okay let me know how that works out for you. Good luck with that. Yeah to know so there have been those who have just you know.
[00:17:53] Their resistance to change you know no matter what it is they will resist change what about pay for performance job advertising how is that. What is the state of that in Canada? Well as I said you know. True to Canadian fashion we're risk adverse we don't understand it.
[00:18:16] We just got our head around paper click and what does paper click mean. And now we're going to move to a new model as you know indeed has announced a paper applicant model.
[00:18:30] And so is that that is what you're referring to correct that and pay for higher paper apply paper all all of the above as opposed to the old fashion subscription model where you pay. For a monthly.
[00:18:48] Ad placement or a package yes so you know what I see is a lot of these smaller I call them pop up shops in terms of job boards that they're still stuck on that duration based flat fee post your job for 30 days going to cost you X.
[00:19:09] Versus performance and so I think organizations who are still maybe trying to get their head around the fact that they even have to pay to post a job ad. There's still this perception that it should be all free.
[00:19:23] And so as they begin to realize if you really want to compete for job seekers you really need to pay attention to this and you need to be where the job seekers are. It will come much slower I would say you know in terms of market acceptance.
[00:19:39] Where usually about 18 months behind the United States of America. Note the United States of America there. And if you want if you want free job ads by the way there's still Craigslist. Except in Vancouver. Toronto and perhaps they charge in Montreal as well, but I don't think so.
[00:20:02] And even in Vancouver it's. Seven dollars Canadian which is what about 340 US or something like that. Sorry couldn't resist sorry. When when I lived in Buffalo I remember when it was.
[00:20:16] Two to one and I also remember when it was at par so it varied widely while I was there. I would like to ask you guys a question sure and that is you know when it comes to. The niche job boards of the smaller job boards.
[00:20:35] What advice do you give to organization or to start up? You know there's there's a ton of provincial innovation grants that entrepreneurs can can do but what is the one thing that you would tell them.
[00:20:50] As a piece of advice if you're going to do this where where should they focus their efforts first. You know if I was starting up a job board in 2022 or 2023. We're recording in 2022 the episode will probably go live in 2023.
[00:21:09] I first of all would probably have my sanity checked. The market is in virtually every area of the world highly highly saturated. There are really no niches and certainly no general opportunities where there isn't already an established competitor doing things pretty decently. Now, are they doing a great?
[00:21:33] Are there is an insurmountable? No but in my mind if you're going to be starting a business that's going to be going into direct competition with an existing business. You have to offer substantially better value than the existing player. And substantially better value is not a cheaper price.
[00:21:51] It has to work a lot better. At the end of the day I have never heard an employer say that I'm not going to use XYZ Job Board or recruitment marketplace because it's too expensive. The price they charge is too much. It's always about what they get.
[00:22:07] How many people apply? How many people they interview? How many people they hire? No add is ever too expensive if you're hiring a bunch of people off of it. So the performance has to be really good.
[00:22:19] Years ago with job boards, there was a chicken egg, chicken and egg problem. If you didn't have enough postings, you didn't have candidates. If you didn't have candidates, you didn't have postings. Now with programmatic, with feeds of jobs that you can get from organizations like Aspen Tech Labs.
[00:22:37] So even if you aren't equipped to do programmatic costs per click, you can still get a feed of jobs. You can get a feed of jobs for free. Maybe make a little bit money on it, maybe pay a little bit of money on it.
[00:22:48] And you don't then have to go to your customers, your potential customers, and ask them to run postings for you for free. That is the kiss of death.
[00:22:58] Don't go to a customer that you want to be able to sell to six months from now or two years from now and say, I'm going to give it to you for free because they will never pay you.
[00:23:09] And so you're just taking your best customers and making them into your worst. Peter, what are your thoughts? I have two quick thoughts on that. Unlike Stephen. Number one, your friend Matt, your friend Matt Crummery,
[00:23:25] our writer Matt Crummery has actually identified a niche that he is thinking about, I hope building it into a job board. I can't mention it because that would be totally unfair,
[00:23:38] but it will be fascinating to see if he can make that niche or in the US a niche work. And second of all, well, I travel internationally, speak internationally. In Europe and in Canadiya, I have to say niche in the states you say niche.
[00:23:55] Otherwise people don't know what you're talking about. The other thing is that my one piece of advice would be if you're starting a job board, buy it off the shelf, don't build it yourself.
[00:24:10] And that's a podcast that's a podcast that's Stephen and I have agreed to do soon because we have strong, we both have very strong feelings about that. We've run long, but it's been really fun. So we're going to wrap up here any last words, Shelley,
[00:24:29] and then we'll ask you how to people find your ending. Shelley, any last words? Dying. Thank you so much. I honestly love being able to spend some time with you. Thank you so much for inviting me on the show.
[00:24:49] And yes, if you want to find me, the recruitment flex, we've got a website, but we're really active on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn, Shelley billing her. I know there's a few of them, but you narrow that down to Canada and I'm pretty easy to find.
[00:25:06] It's Shelley with the EY. The correct way. Yes. Shelley, niches and niches are both fun to talk about. Canada is fun to talk about on that note. Thank you again, and I hope we get to connect again soon. Thank you. Cheers, Shelley. Inside job boards and recruitment marketplaces
[00:25:30] is a co-production of Evergreen podcast, college recruiter and the aim route. Please subscribe for free on your favorite app. Review it. Five stars are always nice. And recommended to a couple of people you know who want to learn more about job boards and recruitment marketplaces.
[00:25:47] Special thanks to our producer and engineer Ian Douglas. I'm your host, Peter's Olman of the aim route, the leading global consultancy in the field of Marketplaces and classified advertising. Find out more about our reports on recruitment marketplaces, job boards and class divides,
[00:26:06] including our new recruitment marketplaces annual at aim route.com slash reports. I'm your host, Stephen Rothberg of Job Search Site College recruiter. Each year we help more than 12 million candidates find great new jobs. Our customers are primarily fortunate in 1000 companies, government agencies,
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