Getting Inclusive AF with Rolondo Talbott

[00:00:00] You're listening to inclusive AF with Jackie Clayton and Katie Van Horn.

[00:00:07] Hi, Jackie.

[00:00:09] Hi, Katie.

[00:00:11] How are you doing?

[00:00:13] You know, we're recording this on a Monday.

[00:00:16] I couldn't be better on Super Bowl Monday because Taylor won.

[00:00:22] Taylor won the Super Bowl.

[00:00:24] Taylor was the biggest winner. guest with us today that would like to have a great conversation with. We're going to have a great conversation with. So, Rolando Talbot, I'm going to turn it over to you to introduce yourself and share a little bit about who you are. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for having me here. I'm a big fan of listening to you all for a while and I do appreciate, I've done these types of things

[00:01:41] before and it's always very sort of hoity-to? And like, why is it that I'm the only person here? And then why is it that there isn't this sense of representation, although I didn't know that's what it was at the time, but just like, why was this not sitting well in my soul?

[00:03:01] Like what was this?

[00:03:03] How did it happen both historically and systemically?

[00:03:06] And so when I leading the diversity, equity and inclusion efforts of the organization. And that's really my focus is how to create these spaces of inclusivity, of belonging, bring voices to the table. I often say, and it's not my quote, but I love saying it is,

[00:04:21] you know, if you're not at the table,

[00:04:23] then you're on the menu.

[00:04:24] And so it's really, how do we put the lens on black women? How do we put the lens on black neurodiverse individuals? How do we put the lens on different pockets of the community that don't often get that spotlight shown on them and doing that across all dimensions of identity?

[00:05:40] So really interested into that right now,

[00:05:42] I'm a technologist by background.

[00:05:45] So really looking at the intersection of DEI and technology. and like, okay, trying to map out where we're gonna go and, you know, visit and things like that. And then I've got a 10 year old son who's amazing. He's testing for his black belt in Taekwondo in a couple of weeks. I'm just really super excited about that. And yeah, and other than that, you know, just trying to live life the best way I can. Just trying to get through it day by day.

[00:07:01] Day by day.

[00:07:02] You know, I love that every time we have a guest on,

[00:07:04] it just makes me feel like I'm the laziest human

[00:07:06] on the planet because all know, it was like, oh, this is the family legacy. I think it was a little bit different for me, as I kind of mentioned in my position being a young officer, you know, it wasn't the easiest time being in the military

[00:08:21] in my particular generation.

[00:08:23] And so when I look back at my, you know,

[00:08:24] not that it was easy for. It wasn't like during or before and you hear about that. And sometimes that happens and sometimes it doesn't. So I was really curious about that. And I'm glad that you brought up and this is now I'm jumping all the way in the other oftentimes we're forced to have to relive that trauma to help inform others of that trauma. Because you're not in it, you don't know. You don't know me having to recount my entire lineage to prove, you know, my blackness during this month is trauma.

[00:11:00] It's causing trauma.

[00:11:01] I'm going to do it with a smile, but you're never going to know that, right?

[00:11:04] And so it's how do we stop that? in each new location kind of from scratch, like, okay, here's the list of things I do. Here's the list of things I don't do. Here's the list of things we're not gonna do. Like those are all, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you the ironic piece about that is that at least in my history, I don't know that I've ever really lasted that long

[00:12:21] to get through that arc, right?

[00:12:22] Because I think you, for me, it was very,

[00:12:25] as I started getting more into this work about what this means or, you know, hey, I'm inclusive, you know, I make sure everybody's invited to the meetings. And it's like, that's not what that means, right? And so I think a lot of what I'm very interested, especially in entering new organizations is one, is what's the propensity for change? Like, are they really, really about this change?

[00:13:40] Or is it just like, where is it coming from?

[00:13:42] And, you know, there's different ways to sort of learn

[00:13:45] where the truth lies.

[00:13:47] But then it's also, it's kind of it's that decision matrix, right? It's like, do I continue in this work or is it or have I hit my guard rails and you're not really interested in continuing this journey with me and I got to move on. So that's usually how I'm saying out. Yeah, I love what you just said about just defining what does diversity, equity, inclusion

[00:15:00] mean, because I think there's also the of resistance to that, whether it's the naming of just DEI in general

[00:16:21] and it feeling sticky and icky as it is now

[00:16:25] to just doing the work and just, how are we funded?

[00:16:28] Where are we putting our money? But it's like what is inequitable right now? Where do people not feel like they belong? They don't take all of the other initials. Like let's just look at another initial today. Let's see where we're at and putting all those things together. But you're right. It's like people are all over the place. It's a very different place in their journey. And I haven't met one organization that had a propensity for change.

[00:17:44] I mean like even like we're going to change the corporate font. you are no longer recognizable to yourself. This is who you say you are. So let's put your money where your mouth is. And so it's usually when I'm trying to approach things from that sort of perspective, that oftentimes for some leaders, there's this aha moment and it's like, oh, okay, you're not trying to whatever, put a bunch of women in leadership positions

[00:19:01] because it looks right.

[00:19:02] It's like, no, this is actually,

[00:19:04] here's the case study, here's the data,

[00:19:06] here's how we're going to work together, how we're going to actually. No, absolutely. And I guess going back to the books, totally forgot to mention the books, but that was kind of the reason why I started writing the books.

[00:21:41] I actually have two books I'm working on a third,

[00:21:43] but the first book was more about just,

[00:21:46] I come from a multicultural, we need something for her age. We need something for that area to understand here's what we go through that may seem very subtle, but again, causes trauma and how do we change that?

[00:23:02] And so I wrote a book specifically around microaggressions

[00:23:05] for sort of that generation as well. like not want anybody to see it. And they didn't have those kids books. And then there was another one for my son. My son was born and he just is unique looking and was just compare themselves to other people. But the fact of the matter is, is that especially if you're not teaching these things in schools, people like conveniently forget

[00:24:22] that the whole reason why we started seeing

[00:24:24] a more black history in schools was in like all of us that are DEI practitioners have to go in with the mindset that I don't know everything and I want to keep learning from you. I want to learn and learn as much as I can to take that attitude because it's not like teaching someone how to use Excel, right? Where it's like, okay, this is a pivot table and this is a this and now you're done and

[00:25:42] you can get your certification.

[00:25:43] It's not like that.

[00:25:44] It's very nuanced. to be where I can, but you're absolutely right. That's what it's going to take to combat this trend of reeling all this stuff back. And it's just funny you bring up desegregation, because it wasn't that long ago. I work with you. Was it? And so it's like when you think about that,

[00:27:00] it's like, oh, OK, this is just bringing back

[00:27:04] all the things that were there not that long ago.

[00:27:07] And we're just repeating this history. that are inequitable or taking away our rights. It's like, how do we stand up there as well? I think that's a piece that, you know, all I'm thinking about right now is, you know, you both said this, like the education piece in schools right now. We know that there is such a challenge to even sharing history

[00:28:20] and what actually has happened and, you know,

[00:28:22] this being Black History Month and as kids learn about slavery

[00:28:25] and the trauma that Black children go through during, local folks in charge, what's important to us. And I think that's just such a critical piece and we'll start saying it now because I think we're at that point where everyone needs to be registering to vote, so go vote, go register to vote, I should say at this point, go register to vote. But when you think about, you know, a person going into an organization

[00:29:42] that maybe doesn't have the 20 years of experience

[00:29:45] that you have doing this work,

[00:29:47] what are the things that you're in, because not every size is going to fit your particular organization. And then I think there's also a certain level of humility that one has to have. I think, forget who said it earlier, but it's like sometimes we don't know what we don't know. And it's sort of recognizing that there's, nobody's expecting you to be the sort of the expert

[00:31:02] in all of this, but we do expect you to be the expert

[00:31:05] in figuring out how to get this done. diversity within it, and you're in the DEI space, I'm questioning what exactly are we doing here, right? How exactly are we positioning this organization to come in and help? And so that's really, you know, how I start, you know, helping these organizations start to put together those foundations if I'm not in that particular position, but simply helping

[00:32:21] out.

[00:32:22] Well, and along with that, it's do the research of the people that are we're seeing now is people are done being only. Like I'm just not, you know, I always say I volunteer as tribute, but it's like, what have you done up to this point? Because some people are like, I see, and I appreciate you asking me, but I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna be tokenized or be your only one. So dig deeper. I love that, I love that.

[00:33:42] I'm looking at, Katie's talking to her dogs.

[00:33:45] Did you hear?

[00:33:47] No, I just can read lips really good. than it is when simply saying, if you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu. But that is where, at least in the work that I do, that's where I sort of leverage the privilege that I have within the organizations to reach back out to those thought leaders, to those idea generators, and bring them along with me on that journey. So if I'm privileged enough to be part of those conversations,

[00:35:01] I'm reaching back out to those groups to say,

[00:35:04] what do you all think about these type of things? that has to be built up. It's a ton of educational work as to what are some of those, again, historical traumas of being the only or the one of one, but it's understanding and it's helping, you know, in my case, executives understand the privilege that they have to sit in those rooms and sit at that table and then bringing those voices along.

[00:36:21] And then I just, I really just, you know,

[00:36:23] I model that behavior for them a lot of times.

[00:36:25] So it's like, hey, no, I'm going to bring in this individual because they've got a really great idea on how to communicate better with our hourly workers. And then that's how we and then leveraging really our employee resource groups to be that catalyst to be that sort of entity is really something that I'm really proud of in the work that I've done over the past couple of years is again, bring that group with me.

[00:37:43] Hey, you're coming along with me. We're not just going to

[00:37:45] leverage you when it's Black trust, but it's also, I think, the key, and Jackie and I talk about this all the time, listening. You know, you're going out to folks and saying, is this working? Are you getting the messages that we're trying to share with you? Are you getting what you need from us? And then listening to the responses and taking action from there.

[00:39:00] Because I think that's a, so, and I have been guilty of this.

[00:39:05] I am willing to admit it that at. Like, you know, I want to work overnight to get to know them and to hear from and it's just stuff like that, where it's like, really, like, that's,

[00:40:21] that's okay.

[00:40:23] To your point, revolutionary.

[00:40:26] This is where we're starting. Nobody thought of working just how are we feeling? Like, I know what it's like to lose somebody in their service, how are you all doing? And it's things like that, that again, it's not like it's part of a strategy of mine, but it's like, that's just what empathetic human beings do. And I'm gonna then bring your story of experiencing loss

[00:41:42] when you were in the service to our executives, we can talk about, you know,

[00:41:43] what are ways that we can support our veterans?

[00:41:45] It's small stuff like that,

[00:41:47] but somebody's got to check it out, make sure that you're listening, but then do something with it after you have, you know, you're absolutely right. It's this communities that we often overlook, and they don't feel that safety, they don't, and then it's critical, we end up missing these

[00:43:01] critical, critical voices. I'm neurodiverse. I've learned so much from that, you know, and it's, as a DEI practitioner, it's almost

[00:44:24] embarrassing sometimes because it and it's very humbling just, you know, it's like, I need to understand, you know,

[00:45:42] those outside of my privilege.

[00:45:43] I need to understand single parents.

[00:45:45] I need to understand all need to make sure that everyone has what they need just to, like you said, survive and get the basics of work done. It's just it's fascinating. I'll take it one step forward. When I was working in higher education, we were it was in the middle of the pandemic. What again was an eye opening moment was that sort of technological equity, right? It's like who has their own laptops versus who doesn't which

[00:47:01] are our students have the access. Power was another thing that I just was like, like,

[00:47:06] we don't we have students that had unreliable power. I mean, and it's still happening. My husband works for the Waco Independent School District. Somebody stole another kid's laptop. When you're without a laptop, you have to pay $200 to get a lap to replace it. And so people are stealing people's laptops. And if you're not on TV, you can't prove that somebody stole your laptop.

[00:48:21] And, but so what are you supposed to do?

[00:48:24] Like, I don't like, so I just don't have to go to education

[00:48:27] or I'm in this space of sort of, I'm calling it empathetic diversity, equity, and inclusion because I think what I'm seeing

[00:49:41] is this frustration in my industry

[00:49:44] and it's very recognizable and understandable frustration I was talking about Marvel, but anyway. But you notice, we didn't show up that way, right? We went through something that made us come out the other side as these champions of the EI. And I think we forget that sometimes. We forget where we came from. And so I guess that's my big takeaway, is I always try to humble myself and remember that origin story.

[00:51:01] And also remember, along with that grace and empathy,

[00:51:04] that there may be other people out there

[00:51:06] that are just like, those are the wins and kind of latching on to those and saying, Oh, I love that. How can we work together to take this forward? You know, those, those are the moments that I try to hold on to and, and, and

[00:52:22] kind of, you know, at least fill my cup. So going to this work the choice, to have the ability to learn, to have the ability to say, this is what I need, this is what would make me feel safe, all of those pieces, because I think that's, we talk about trauma-informed work, like the just listening and actually saying,

[00:53:40] what can I do to make this better,

[00:53:42] to make this safe, to make this okay for you,

[00:53:45] and how do we actually do that in real life?