Gerry Tales from Unleash

[00:00:00] Hi, it's your kids.

[00:00:01] Lock the doors.

[00:00:02] You're listening to HR's most dangerous podcast.

[00:00:05] Chad Sowash and Joel Cheeseman are here to punch the recruiting industry right where it hurts.

[00:00:10] Complete with breaking news, brash opinion, and loads of snark.

[00:00:15] Buckle up boys and girls.

[00:00:16] It's time for the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:00:19] Awww yeah.

[00:00:24] What's up everybody?

[00:00:25] We are live from the Daxter booth at Unleash in Las Vegas.

[00:00:28] This is the Chad and Cheese Podcast.

[00:00:30] I'm your co-host Joel Cheeseman.

[00:00:32] Joined as always, Chad Sowash is here.

[00:00:34] And we are just privileged to have Jerry Crispin, co-founder of Career Crossroads,

[00:00:40] industry expert and world of work icon.

[00:00:44] My beard worships his.

[00:00:47] Jerry Crispin, welcome to HR's most dangerous podcast.

[00:00:51] After all this shit he just gave you, he's like, icon.

[00:00:54] He's like, you should have saw all the off-camera stuff that was happening.

[00:00:58] Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here.

[00:00:59] It's been a while.

[00:01:00] You were on the show, I think pre-pandemic.

[00:01:02] I was on the show.

[00:01:03] When we were trying to be a serious podcast.

[00:01:06] No, we did a whole series.

[00:01:07] We did Jerry's series.

[00:01:08] Jerry Tales.

[00:01:08] We did Jerry Tales.

[00:01:10] I got stories.

[00:01:11] I got stories.

[00:01:14] I got stories.

[00:01:15] So Jerry, some of our listeners don't know who you are.

[00:01:17] Who are they?

[00:01:18] Give them, some are too young and weren't around in the industry.

[00:01:23] Give us the Twitter bio about you.

[00:01:26] We'll let you go a little longer because you've around it.

[00:01:28] I bet I don't.

[00:01:28] I just nurture a community of talent acquisition leaders from large companies

[00:01:33] who are committed to helping each other.

[00:01:36] Say more about that.

[00:01:37] You have an organization that does facilitate this.

[00:01:41] I don't have to run.

[00:01:43] So I have somebody who does all the heavy lifting.

[00:01:45] He's the president.

[00:01:48] Chris does a fabulous job in building a platform that helps people who are in

[00:01:53] talent acquisition in leadership roles, engage one another.

[00:01:57] Benchmark, understand what's going on.

[00:01:59] Chris is taking the baton though.

[00:02:01] Let's talk about why you started and then how you grew it up to this point

[00:02:06] where somebody needs to take over.

[00:02:08] That's a great legacy, right?

[00:02:11] And please mention the days where you wrote a book on all the job boards

[00:02:15] that were out there.

[00:02:16] We're going back.

[00:02:17] So let's do it.

[00:02:17] Well, you know, it started with actually Mark and I were helping a group

[00:02:23] of talent acquisition leaders and CHROs who are out of work find jobs.

[00:02:28] It was a group that met every Saturday morning at 7 a.m.

[00:02:32] Every other Saturday morning at 7 a.m.

[00:02:35] They had to be committed.

[00:02:37] They had to be committed.

[00:02:38] They had to share fully what they were interviewing on which some

[00:02:42] were reluctant because it's competitive.

[00:02:44] Somebody's going to call up and say, hey, don't take him.

[00:02:46] Take me.

[00:02:47] So you have this starting this group typically about 30 or 40 people

[00:02:53] in the Princeton area who are doing this and I enjoyed trying to help them.

[00:02:59] You know, it was it was a pay it forward.

[00:03:01] I was working with shaker advertising at the time and many of these

[00:03:04] folks after they got a job obviously are trying to rethink how they

[00:03:08] recruit and it might be that hey, you need new advertising agency.

[00:03:12] So, you know, there's a there's an advantage there as well.

[00:03:15] Right.

[00:03:16] But Mark and I were doing that and then we said, you know, this weird

[00:03:19] shit has happening with this thing called the Internet and and there's

[00:03:24] this OCC.

[00:03:26] What the hell is that?

[00:03:27] And there's this you better say he's career.

[00:03:31] And then there's you know, so you have these these nascent job

[00:03:38] boards starting up and none of the people in the room knew anything

[00:03:41] about them.

[00:03:42] Yeah.

[00:03:42] And so we're we're collecting data on all of that and I'm putting

[00:03:45] it into a little, you know, computer.

[00:03:47] Yep.

[00:03:48] Pentium 286 and manual entry.

[00:03:51] Is that gerbil still alive?

[00:03:53] That was powering that.

[00:03:54] No, no, no.

[00:03:55] I think it's powering my Wi-Fi at home.

[00:03:57] So we're doing we're doing all of that and then somebody sends

[00:04:00] me I start getting involved with Sherman.

[00:04:02] Sherman sends me a note that says hey, you've been elected

[00:04:06] to give a talk at the 1996 Chicago SHRM annual conference and

[00:04:13] your subject is HR and the Internet.

[00:04:17] Hello.

[00:04:18] They told you the topic.

[00:04:19] They basically said we'd like you to do that because no one

[00:04:23] knows anything about it and because no one's ever done a

[00:04:27] topic on HR and the Internet in our annual conference.

[00:04:30] Yeah, so I said shit.

[00:04:32] Why not?

[00:04:33] Okay, I can do that.

[00:04:34] So I put together a deck of all these different kinds of

[00:04:37] things, but then they sent me a note in January that said

[00:04:42] if you have a book will promote it.

[00:04:44] Oh the book and I looked at Mark.

[00:04:47] If you have a book will promote it.

[00:04:49] And Mark and I looked at each other and said, oh, that's

[00:04:52] what we could do together because he was he was a

[00:04:55] contract recruiter.

[00:04:56] I'm working at Shaker.

[00:04:57] We're going a book we have hundreds because we have

[00:05:01] almost all of the job boards that exist right now in our

[00:05:05] computer and we got little notes about them.

[00:05:08] So it was a four page novella that you passed out 160

[00:05:13] pages.

[00:05:13] Oh God, so we we I had a floppy disk.

[00:05:17] We went and learned how to how to do a book.

[00:05:20] Yeah, I mean you had to get a publisher back then.

[00:05:24] No, no, no.

[00:05:24] Oh, no.

[00:05:25] Okay, there was self-publishing back then.

[00:05:27] Oh, we I sent I sent a two page letter to three publishers.

[00:05:32] All of them drove to my New Jersey address with Shaker to

[00:05:37] explain to us how wonderful this idea is of writing a book

[00:05:43] about Internet resources for job seekers and they wanted to

[00:05:46] partner with us and then we learned partner partner and

[00:05:51] partner turned out to be a 40 page document that basically

[00:05:54] They own everything forever and everything I will ever do from

[00:05:59] that point on and I will get 5% of the profits how generous

[00:06:06] I do determined by them after they've decided how much all

[00:06:10] of this cost market.

[00:06:12] I looked at each other.

[00:06:12] We said, what are you kidding me?

[00:06:14] We're going to do this ourselves.

[00:06:15] We're going to have to learn how to how to write a book.

[00:06:17] So we printed out on a floppy disk.

[00:06:20] He went to Chicago to a convention of bookmakers or something.

[00:06:25] So he learned all the list of what to do and we basically

[00:06:28] printed out or had a printer that print out from a floppy

[00:06:34] disk onto 160 pages of the King Coast all this shit.

[00:06:38] We had an artist put up the front on it and we figured

[00:06:41] out how to put the in dishes in the you know, the

[00:06:45] all of the other stuff that you did.

[00:06:46] Yeah, we said what should we charge?

[00:06:49] Oh, let's charge $14.95.

[00:06:52] Why who knows?

[00:06:53] We just don't know who knows.

[00:06:55] So you so 1495 then I call Sherm and I say we got a book.

[00:07:02] It's coming out.

[00:07:03] It's being printed right now and we're going to make

[00:07:06] it in time.

[00:07:06] How many books do you want us to send to the bookstore

[00:07:10] at in Chicago?

[00:07:11] He says 50 50 50 and we had you know coughed up enough

[00:07:17] money to make to make 5,000 copies at a dollar.

[00:07:22] I think it was $1.69 per copy.

[00:07:24] Oh, that's that's good margin is great.

[00:07:27] Mark.

[00:07:27] That's great margin.

[00:07:28] So so we we sent two cases.

[00:07:32] So in 100 books, we sent them to the room.

[00:07:35] We were going to be in we sent them 50.

[00:07:37] So we knew there's 150 anyhow.

[00:07:39] Yeah, we were ready to hawk it like crazy.

[00:07:42] We we go to to Sherm.

[00:07:44] They want me to do two sessions now.

[00:07:47] Thousand people in each session.

[00:07:49] Hello thousand and the and the projector as you can imagine

[00:07:53] was way bigger than this table.

[00:07:55] I mean it was a new one.

[00:07:57] And you have 150 books.

[00:07:59] I had a hundred fifty that's it.

[00:08:02] Scarcity sells.

[00:08:03] Yes, it does.

[00:08:04] Sherm was willing to buy to sell the book even if they

[00:08:08] didn't have it in front of them really they sold 5000

[00:08:12] books in an hour and a half.

[00:08:13] Wow.

[00:08:15] And and you were an author now.

[00:08:17] Yeah, and he and I looked at each other.

[00:08:19] He said, holy shit.

[00:08:22] So we thought we were behind.

[00:08:23] Yeah, in this internet thing over before we got there,

[00:08:27] you know, so so we sell 5000 books at 1495.

[00:08:31] We have to give Sherm half.

[00:08:33] Okay, so we have half that's still good margin.

[00:08:36] I'm fine.

[00:08:36] So good.

[00:08:37] I'm fine.

[00:08:38] We did three editions sold out three editions in the

[00:08:41] first book because you asked him the story you're getting

[00:08:44] it.

[00:08:44] Yeah, in the first book.

[00:08:46] We said listen if you give us your email, I just had

[00:08:50] this spark of an idea.

[00:08:51] If you give us your email, we promise to send you

[00:08:55] an update about this book every month for the

[00:08:57] rest of our lives.

[00:09:00] Hello newsletter.

[00:09:01] That's a hard promise to keep.

[00:09:03] Hello.

[00:09:03] I had in two years.

[00:09:04] We had 50,000 emails.

[00:09:07] Oh my God in 1998 going into 1999 that we sent

[00:09:12] a note in December of 1998 saying we have this new

[00:09:16] thing.

[00:09:17] Our our book new book the 1999 version is coming

[00:09:22] out.

[00:09:22] We have this thing where you can go on our website

[00:09:24] and you can give us 20 bucks because now it's

[00:09:28] 20 bucks.

[00:09:28] Oh yeah, and we'll take that money and you will

[00:09:31] get one of the first copies coming off of the

[00:09:34] press of the new book with now we've got 400

[00:09:39] or you know, I don't know what we had.

[00:09:41] You're like a Beatles fan club by this point.

[00:09:44] We had 5,000 offers in the first couple hours.

[00:09:47] 5,000 grief money coming in and we hadn't paid

[00:09:51] the printer yet.

[00:09:52] So so we've paid for the book.

[00:09:55] We're making money like crazy.

[00:09:57] But think about this for a moment at at this

[00:10:01] is why Mark Maehler kind of burned out kind

[00:10:04] of kind of burned out every every three

[00:10:07] months a truck would come to his driveway with

[00:10:12] money.

[00:10:14] It was pretty much the book.

[00:10:16] Yes, yes.

[00:10:17] And he'd fill his entire garage floor to

[00:10:20] ceiling with cases of books because this

[00:10:23] is what's going to happen with t-shirts.

[00:10:27] And he would go around to every neighborhood

[00:10:30] kid under you know 15 and hire them to come

[00:10:35] and help him.

[00:10:36] He had these printer things that you would

[00:10:38] print out the label.

[00:10:39] Yeah, put the month put the information in

[00:10:42] then you had to print out the damn label

[00:10:43] then get a stick it on the on the envelope.

[00:10:46] Then you had to put that in the book in

[00:10:48] there and then you had to put the stamps

[00:10:49] on and I'm not doing any of this shit.

[00:10:51] So so and then you had to put it put them

[00:10:54] in a car and then take them to the US

[00:10:56] Post Office.

[00:10:57] So we're selling books like crazy.

[00:10:59] I think we sold over eight years and eight

[00:11:02] editions.

[00:11:03] I think we sold north of 300,000 people don't

[00:11:08] appreciate this is before blogs.

[00:11:10] Yeah, this is before podcast.

[00:11:11] Oh God.

[00:11:11] This is before really any this was ever

[00:11:13] available.

[00:11:14] No, it's a book.

[00:11:15] My is paper.

[00:11:17] My CEO at job options Michael Forrest who

[00:11:21] you know he had a vision of we need to

[00:11:24] get in Jerry's book because you had some

[00:11:27] that got a get like badges for some.

[00:11:29] I don't remember what the badges were.

[00:11:31] It's like a top side.

[00:11:32] Top 50.

[00:11:33] So he we have to get in the top 50.

[00:11:35] So we did everything that we could

[00:11:37] Barbara Reese who now works for you was

[00:11:39] my boss.

[00:11:39] She probably did a lot of that stuff.

[00:11:40] Yep.

[00:11:41] And once we got in we ordered hundreds

[00:11:44] of these things.

[00:11:45] We sent them out to all the prospects

[00:11:47] and we had a big sticker that says job

[00:11:49] options top 50 site.

[00:11:51] That was our content marketing strategy.

[00:11:53] That was our direct marketing strategy.

[00:11:55] Your book.

[00:11:56] I love it.

[00:11:57] I will tell you that even to even

[00:11:59] in the last two months I've been on calls

[00:12:03] zoom calls where somebody who is you

[00:12:06] know mature TA leader has been around

[00:12:08] for a long while 20 some odd years will

[00:12:11] smile at something and suddenly pick

[00:12:14] up a book off to the side and show her

[00:12:16] you know her copy from you know 1998

[00:12:19] or 99.

[00:12:20] She had that holstered.

[00:12:21] She was ready.

[00:12:22] She was ready.

[00:12:22] I still have mine.

[00:12:23] I still have mine.

[00:12:24] It started it really informed us of

[00:12:28] what you know what we were looking at.

[00:12:30] Yeah, we'd helped us to better understand

[00:12:32] that what the technology piece was now

[00:12:34] that the one good and smart thing I

[00:12:37] did was I didn't have to become an

[00:12:40] expert in all of the tools and everything

[00:12:42] else that was going on.

[00:12:44] But what I did start doing in 1998

[00:12:47] 9 was going to different folks who

[00:12:50] were emerging in the field like John

[00:12:53] Sullivan like a John Sumter and asking

[00:12:56] them Rothberg a bunch of these

[00:12:58] characters and asking them to write a

[00:13:01] two or three page article about some

[00:13:04] aspect of how you could better write

[00:13:06] a resume with all of those things

[00:13:09] digitally and what you should be

[00:13:11] looking for to do that or what what

[00:13:14] should you be doing if you're if

[00:13:16] you're doing IT versus this or how to

[00:13:18] deal with high volume or whatever

[00:13:20] it might be that seemed to be the

[00:13:22] hot topic at the moment.

[00:13:24] And so we had 30 different articles

[00:13:28] some for the job seeker and some for

[00:13:30] the employer that were tips on what

[00:13:33] to do.

[00:13:33] And in those days there wasn't a manual

[00:13:36] for how to use the internet.

[00:13:38] Now we were coming up with it.

[00:13:39] I mean we were building the plane

[00:13:41] in flight for God's sake.

[00:13:42] Exactly people would fax job descriptions

[00:13:45] to then be typeset into a computer.

[00:13:46] Yes, we had we had we had admin

[00:13:48] that did that all the time not just

[00:13:50] jobs but also resumes.

[00:13:51] So then investors would call us

[00:13:53] and say we want to talk to you

[00:13:55] about something and we'd say and Mark

[00:13:57] would go the internet.

[00:13:58] Here's here's the price sit for one

[00:14:01] hour and you have to give us a check

[00:14:03] on the way in.

[00:14:04] Yeah, and then we were doing some

[00:14:07] stuff for employers from a consulting

[00:14:11] point of view about how they could

[00:14:12] do better with getting their job

[00:14:16] board, you know their career pages.

[00:14:19] So we did that and then we realized

[00:14:21] so I'm to end this in 2003 our

[00:14:24] last book we realized that we were

[00:14:27] obsolete that you know, we now have

[00:14:29] reasonable search engines that

[00:14:33] could tell you something about what

[00:14:35] are the military job boards that

[00:14:37] are the government job boards.

[00:14:38] You know that kind of thing and

[00:14:40] we realized this is this is silly.

[00:14:41] We're not dealing with what I what

[00:14:43] is the gap?

[00:14:44] Yeah, and and it was at that

[00:14:46] moment that we realized that a lot

[00:14:48] of conferences like this one there

[00:14:50] were hundreds of people coming

[00:14:51] and giving talks but in those days

[00:14:55] because the Internet was still

[00:14:57] somewhat mysterious.

[00:14:59] The lawyers and PR people in most

[00:15:01] of these employer companies wouldn't

[00:15:03] let you talk about the real data.

[00:15:06] So every conference had somebody

[00:15:08] getting up saying we solve this.

[00:15:10] We got 10% reduction in whatever

[00:15:12] but no, I can't tell you exactly

[00:15:14] what we did because I'm not

[00:15:16] allowed.

[00:15:17] I mean, I'm exaggerating a little

[00:15:19] bit but it was pretty much like

[00:15:20] that. We said we need a place

[00:15:22] where people can safely talk to

[00:15:23] each other about this.

[00:15:25] This is this is this is stupid.

[00:15:27] You know, there's no nothing

[00:15:28] proprietary about this about how

[00:15:31] to find somebody we should be

[00:15:34] uplifting the you know, whatever

[00:15:36] what we're all doing.

[00:15:39] We don't have to tell people

[00:15:40] what our strategy is as a

[00:15:41] business, you know to dominate

[00:15:44] but we should be sharing how

[00:15:47] we change the way in which we

[00:15:49] share our knowledge about how

[00:15:52] to hire people in a way that

[00:15:55] that everybody benefits the

[00:15:58] employer, the candidate, you

[00:16:00] know, the recruiter, etc.

[00:16:01] So we should be calling out what

[00:16:03] works what doesn't work and

[00:16:05] that was the start of our

[00:16:06] community of of the

[00:16:08] colloquium and and the rest

[00:16:10] of career crossroads.

[00:16:11] So fast forward shift fast

[00:16:12] forward 25 years.

[00:16:14] It's so fun to walk down

[00:16:15] today and it is it is

[00:16:17] but the contrast to me is so

[00:16:19] fun, right? So back then it

[00:16:21] was exciting.

[00:16:22] It was innovative.

[00:16:22] It was fast-moving.

[00:16:24] It was nuts, right?

[00:16:25] Because everybody was

[00:16:26] implementing new shit and we

[00:16:28] were a part of that, right?

[00:16:29] That was so cool.

[00:16:30] But that's still pales in

[00:16:32] comparison to the shit that's

[00:16:33] happening today, right?

[00:16:34] It's I see I see what is

[00:16:36] happening today as a as

[00:16:39] equivalent to the confusion

[00:16:43] and chaos and hype and

[00:16:45] bullshit going on in the

[00:16:46] late 90s about, you know,

[00:16:48] the the internet, you know

[00:16:50] kind of thing and in relation

[00:16:52] to talent acquisition.

[00:16:53] I mean think about the

[00:16:54] millions of dollars that

[00:16:55] Monster spent at the end of

[00:16:56] the 90s for those those

[00:16:59] things just blew up.

[00:17:00] You mean you mean to tell

[00:17:01] me we're spending millions

[00:17:02] of dollars on a Super Bowl

[00:17:03] to tell people about how to

[00:17:04] get a job.

[00:17:05] Yeah, I mean, that's

[00:17:05] incredible.

[00:17:06] Yeah, that we're getting

[00:17:07] that kind of visibility in

[00:17:09] our profession in our

[00:17:10] industry.

[00:17:10] Yeah, one of the best days

[00:17:11] of my life by the way.

[00:17:13] It's Super Bowl.

[00:17:14] Are you being sarcastic?

[00:17:15] Because no did the servers

[00:17:17] go down?

[00:17:17] No, not ours.

[00:17:18] Ours didn't go down but

[00:17:20] sales went through the fucking

[00:17:21] roof.

[00:17:21] Yeah, I can imagine at

[00:17:23] that point all I had to do

[00:17:24] is when I made a call said

[00:17:25] hey, this is Chad from

[00:17:26] Monster.

[00:17:27] That was it.

[00:17:27] I didn't have to explain

[00:17:29] like where do I send the

[00:17:30] blank check exactly.

[00:17:31] Yeah, exactly.

[00:17:32] And now we have the same

[00:17:35] level of hype chaos and

[00:17:37] craziness around how AI

[00:17:39] is going to change the

[00:17:40] rest of the world.

[00:17:41] Yeah, and and fundamentally

[00:17:43] there are there's just

[00:17:45] enough truth in the

[00:17:47] possibilities that

[00:17:50] that it can some of that

[00:17:52] can happen.

[00:17:52] It's just not going to

[00:17:53] happen as fast as everybody

[00:17:55] else thinks.

[00:17:56] I'm gonna tell you a little

[00:17:56] story about you.

[00:17:57] You may or may not remember

[00:17:58] this.

[00:17:59] About a man named Jerry.

[00:18:00] So let's call the first

[00:18:01] wave 1.0 job boards

[00:18:04] or jobs online,

[00:18:05] resumes online.

[00:18:07] Web 2 as you remember

[00:18:08] was the social media

[00:18:09] stuff.

[00:18:10] You had Jobster come in

[00:18:12] and he was vertical search.

[00:18:14] Yeah, to start.

[00:18:15] So that's when I was

[00:18:16] getting my feet wet in

[00:18:18] the media side of it.

[00:18:20] And then around 2010

[00:18:22] you hit a period of like

[00:18:24] big data machine

[00:18:26] learning and I remember

[00:18:29] I remember I was with you

[00:18:30] and John Sumsor

[00:18:32] and I said

[00:18:33] I said wow these new

[00:18:35] companies are really

[00:18:35] exciting.

[00:18:37] And I remember you sort of

[00:18:38] just and I said

[00:18:42] these are really cool

[00:18:42] companies are using mobile

[00:18:44] and they're doing all

[00:18:45] these things.

[00:18:46] And you said yeah,

[00:18:47] there's a wave of new

[00:18:48] companies.

[00:18:49] It's pretty exciting

[00:18:50] and they will wash away

[00:18:51] and a new wave

[00:18:53] of startups will come

[00:18:54] along and the cycle

[00:18:56] will continue on and on.

[00:18:57] I was too young at the

[00:18:58] time to appreciate your

[00:18:59] comments,

[00:19:00] but I'm old enough now

[00:19:01] that I'm on that

[00:19:03] level that a lot of

[00:19:05] this is we've been

[00:19:06] here before will be

[00:19:08] okay.

[00:19:09] There'll be some that

[00:19:09] are left over.

[00:19:10] There'll be a lot of

[00:19:11] consolidation.

[00:19:12] I assume you see the

[00:19:13] same.

[00:19:14] Absolutely.

[00:19:14] I see it here today.

[00:19:17] The last couple days

[00:19:18] there's a lot of

[00:19:19] effort to increase

[00:19:22] efficiency.

[00:19:23] Yeah.

[00:19:25] In terms of what one

[00:19:26] does, it's only going

[00:19:27] to be an increase in

[00:19:28] productivity is for doing

[00:19:29] the right thing and

[00:19:31] that's part of the

[00:19:31] problem.

[00:19:32] If you're making

[00:19:34] something that doesn't

[00:19:34] work really well more

[00:19:36] efficient, you're just

[00:19:37] making something that

[00:19:38] doesn't work really

[00:19:39] well more.

[00:19:41] You know what I mean?

[00:19:42] Well if you're pushing

[00:19:43] people faster to the

[00:19:44] black hole, who gives

[00:19:45] a shit?

[00:19:45] I know.

[00:19:46] I know.

[00:19:47] And there's some of

[00:19:49] that and part of it

[00:19:50] is because

[00:19:52] some of the new

[00:19:53] stuff they don't do

[00:19:54] enough due diligence

[00:19:55] in terms of what

[00:19:56] really works.

[00:19:57] Yeah.

[00:19:58] I had and I won't

[00:19:59] say his name,

[00:20:00] but I had somebody

[00:20:01] that interviewed me

[00:20:03] in the last couple

[00:20:04] days who's the head

[00:20:05] of the company

[00:20:06] who comes in from

[00:20:07] outside of our

[00:20:10] space.

[00:20:11] He so wants to name names right now.

[00:20:12] But he said,

[00:20:15] he said,

[00:20:17] he said,

[00:20:18] what is it that I'm

[00:20:19] not seeing

[00:20:21] that I should be doing

[00:20:22] or looking forward to

[00:20:23] for, you know,

[00:20:25] because he was doing

[00:20:26] a lot of things to

[00:20:27] try to meet with

[00:20:28] clients, meet with

[00:20:29] other people,

[00:20:30] learn more about

[00:20:31] what's going on.

[00:20:31] I said,

[00:20:33] I said the only thing

[00:20:34] I can offer to

[00:20:35] you as someone

[00:20:36] who's never recruited

[00:20:39] and is in a key

[00:20:40] position is stand

[00:20:42] behind a recruiter

[00:20:43] in your best.

[00:20:44] Go to your client,

[00:20:45] best client,

[00:20:46] ask to go just stand

[00:20:48] in the trench

[00:20:49] with a recruiter,

[00:20:50] a good recruiter

[00:20:51] and watch that

[00:20:52] good recruiter

[00:20:53] who's got twenty five,

[00:20:55] twenty six,

[00:20:55] thirty five open

[00:20:57] wrecks.

[00:20:58] Try to find people

[00:21:00] on one side,

[00:21:02] engage them on another

[00:21:04] set up interviews

[00:21:05] on another and so on.

[00:21:07] And look at look at

[00:21:08] how many dashboards

[00:21:09] they have.

[00:21:10] Look at look at how

[00:21:11] their technology

[00:21:12] is either not

[00:21:14] integrated and or

[00:21:16] not working,

[00:21:18] but but not working

[00:21:19] faster.

[00:21:20] Yeah.

[00:21:20] And I said when

[00:21:22] you start when you start

[00:21:23] looking at what people

[00:21:24] each stakeholder has

[00:21:25] to do and go through

[00:21:27] I said and talk to

[00:21:28] some of the candidates

[00:21:29] that are never ever

[00:21:30] ever. I see I said

[00:21:31] ninety percent of

[00:21:33] all of the openings

[00:21:35] that are applied to

[00:21:37] those candidates

[00:21:38] hear nothing.

[00:21:39] There's ten percent

[00:21:41] that they're doing

[00:21:41] some good candidate

[00:21:42] experience.

[00:21:43] God bless.

[00:21:44] But if you get nine out

[00:21:45] of ten telling you

[00:21:46] nothing,

[00:21:48] what do you think

[00:21:48] going to think about?

[00:21:49] What are you going to

[00:21:50] think about

[00:21:52] recruiting as a profession

[00:21:53] and an industry?

[00:21:54] I said I would like

[00:21:55] to leave this industry

[00:21:57] knowing that we are

[00:21:59] liked by the public

[00:22:00] better than politicians

[00:22:02] and and we're

[00:22:03] and we're really struggling

[00:22:05] at the same level

[00:22:06] at this point.

[00:22:07] And it's not like

[00:22:08] politicians are crushing it.

[00:22:09] But my my measure

[00:22:11] is how the stakeholders

[00:22:12] perceive this profession

[00:22:15] and this industry.

[00:22:16] Well, that's not

[00:22:17] whether or not the

[00:22:18] the vendor, you know,

[00:22:19] thinks that you know,

[00:22:20] legacy is important to

[00:22:22] legacy at this time is

[00:22:23] not for me,

[00:22:24] but for us, all of us.

[00:22:26] I take pride in being

[00:22:28] part of this profession.

[00:22:29] You do too.

[00:22:30] You're living with the fact

[00:22:31] that you've spent

[00:22:32] your entire life

[00:22:33] and career doing

[00:22:35] these kinds of things.

[00:22:37] And I would like

[00:22:38] to think that some of those

[00:22:40] people out there

[00:22:42] who are benefiting by that

[00:22:44] by getting a damn job,

[00:22:45] that's a good job,

[00:22:47] appreciate that.

[00:22:48] And and we still have

[00:22:49] a ways to go.

[00:22:50] I need another 75 years.

[00:22:51] But talk about talk about

[00:22:53] I mean that that is

[00:22:54] that is our responsibility

[00:22:55] to be able to ensure

[00:22:56] that we understand

[00:22:57] the business numbers

[00:22:58] so that we can actually

[00:22:59] create great discussion

[00:23:01] points, business cases

[00:23:02] and narratives that

[00:23:03] get us at the big kids

[00:23:05] table, right?

[00:23:05] We have not done

[00:23:07] that successfully.

[00:23:08] There are the 10 percent

[00:23:10] and if we're lucky,

[00:23:11] it's 10 percent who

[00:23:12] are actually doing that today.

[00:23:13] I mean your your

[00:23:15] colloquiums,

[00:23:16] everything that you do

[00:23:17] is really predicated

[00:23:19] on doing more of that.

[00:23:20] That's it.

[00:23:21] That's the only reason

[00:23:21] why I'm still in it.

[00:23:22] I wouldn't be in it

[00:23:23] for any other reason.

[00:23:25] I could have retired

[00:23:26] ten years ago.

[00:23:27] So I saw this only one.

[00:23:29] This is more fun

[00:23:30] than playing golf every week.

[00:23:31] Yeah.

[00:23:31] You know, every day of the week.

[00:23:33] So I have a lot more fun.

[00:23:35] I have a lot more patience

[00:23:36] around it because

[00:23:37] Chris Hoyt is great

[00:23:38] at what he does

[00:23:39] and he does all of the heavy

[00:23:41] lifting, you know,

[00:23:42] in terms of making

[00:23:43] Kirk Crossroads a good business

[00:23:45] that adds value to

[00:23:47] the to our members.

[00:23:48] So that's key.

[00:23:49] But it's it's within

[00:23:50] that community

[00:23:52] that there's a spark

[00:23:53] of what, you know,

[00:23:54] you want in terms

[00:23:55] of people who are stepping up

[00:23:57] and and changing

[00:23:59] things a little bit in kind.

[00:24:00] I think the next few years

[00:24:01] is going to see some

[00:24:03] some bigger changes

[00:24:05] than we have seen

[00:24:07] in a while.

[00:24:08] So I'm kind of optimistic

[00:24:10] even though there's so much

[00:24:11] hype about, you know,

[00:24:12] all of this crap with AI.

[00:24:15] I do think the potential

[00:24:16] is also there as people

[00:24:18] kind of figure out how to

[00:24:20] how to read between the lines

[00:24:21] and change things

[00:24:22] a little bit in kind

[00:24:23] because there is a lot of

[00:24:24] fear uncertainty and doubt

[00:24:26] in the recruiting profession.

[00:24:27] Yeah, without a layoffs

[00:24:28] in the last 12 18 months.

[00:24:30] What's your take on

[00:24:31] the future of recruiting

[00:24:32] like fewer more with fewer?

[00:24:34] Is it like what are company

[00:24:36] and you talk to a ton of companies.

[00:24:37] What are they talking about

[00:24:38] in terms of bringing recruiting back?

[00:24:39] It's definitely going to be more

[00:24:41] with fewer because

[00:24:43] the cost issue is going

[00:24:45] is going to at least for the

[00:24:46] near term, be there.

[00:24:49] And and I think leaders

[00:24:50] of companies are aware of that

[00:24:52] and they want to be able

[00:24:53] to push the lever.

[00:24:54] They're putting their finger

[00:24:55] on the weight of that.

[00:24:57] And I think it's frustrating

[00:24:58] a lot of recruiters

[00:25:00] and recruiting leaders.

[00:25:01] But I don't think it's going to change.

[00:25:03] I think leaders are going to be

[00:25:04] have more requirements

[00:25:06] in terms of fixing

[00:25:08] the shit that's wasting time,

[00:25:09] money and effort.

[00:25:11] And when you have to move

[00:25:12] between different dashboards,

[00:25:14] you're wasting time.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:16] When you you know,

[00:25:16] so when you look at the systems

[00:25:18] that we have in place,

[00:25:21] they've got to become more efficient,

[00:25:23] more automated in a variety of ways

[00:25:25] and weren't definitely not there yet.

[00:25:27] And will so will be behind.

[00:25:29] I think we're going to have to

[00:25:30] focus in on things like

[00:25:32] what can we do at the top of the funnel

[00:25:34] to automate more there

[00:25:36] so that when it gets to a point

[00:25:38] where there's enough good stuff,

[00:25:41] we can use more humans

[00:25:43] or apply more time from humans

[00:25:45] to get that piece of it done.

[00:25:47] Yes.

[00:25:47] We're going to have to use assessments

[00:25:49] that we've been reluctant

[00:25:51] to use in the past because

[00:25:53] assessments are transparency

[00:25:55] and transparency has to be defended.

[00:25:57] Depending on the assessment,

[00:25:59] though, right?

[00:26:00] There's some mumbo jumbo shit out there.

[00:26:02] Let's assume we do the right thing

[00:26:03] and do the right things scientifically

[00:26:06] in making the assessment work,

[00:26:10] be predictive.

[00:26:11] It's going to be face valid,

[00:26:12] it's going to be concurrently valid,

[00:26:14] it's going to be performance driven and predictive.

[00:26:16] But the fact of the matter is

[00:26:18] interviews are never going to be

[00:26:21] a reliable method to make a decision.

[00:26:24] At the very best,

[00:26:26] academics have shown over and over again

[00:26:29] that you get no more than

[00:26:31] a 2 or 3% edge by doing a perfect set of interviews.

[00:26:36] But then when you complicate it by saying,

[00:26:38] oh, how many people have to do an interview?

[00:26:41] Yeah.

[00:26:41] And how reliable are all those people

[00:26:45] in doing the same kind of approach?

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:49] And if they have to do that

[00:26:51] over and over and over again,

[00:26:53] really, it doesn't work.

[00:26:55] It doesn't make sense.

[00:26:56] We need to eliminate interviews,

[00:26:58] especially at top of the funnel,

[00:27:00] from recruiters and hiring managers.

[00:27:03] That interview should be a way to collect

[00:27:05] good data rather than the resume.

[00:27:08] And if we had an AI, auto, whatever,

[00:27:12] that was kind,

[00:27:14] could speak 25 languages or 55 languages,

[00:27:17] could ask the same questions

[00:27:20] of every single candidate.

[00:27:22] And let's say there's 500 candidates.

[00:27:24] It should be able to do that

[00:27:26] with all of those candidates

[00:27:27] in a very short period of time.

[00:27:30] Collect the data that could be used

[00:27:32] in a consistent, reliable fashion

[00:27:35] and tell the candidate,

[00:27:37] listen, this is a fairer process.

[00:27:39] I'm not human,

[00:27:41] but I'm fairer than any human

[00:27:44] at this stage of the game

[00:27:45] because I'm collecting data

[00:27:46] from every single person, including you.

[00:27:49] And since I'm collecting all the data

[00:27:51] from each person the same way,

[00:27:54] it's a fairer way when I decide

[00:27:56] with a human who's going to go forward.

[00:27:59] But I'm going to come back

[00:28:00] and I'm happy to defend

[00:28:02] why you aren't going forward

[00:28:04] and help you think about

[00:28:06] what you could be doing

[00:28:07] to be more competitive in the future

[00:28:09] or what other jobs you should be competing for

[00:28:12] that you would be better off in getting.

[00:28:15] I'm telling you, we could create a fairer process

[00:28:18] if we start tackling some of these problems.

[00:28:21] Is anybody doing that? No.

[00:28:24] I think there are though.

[00:28:25] There are, we're close.

[00:28:26] And it's not the entire swath of requisitions

[00:28:31] that are open, but UPS has talked about,

[00:28:33] we're just talking to Matt,

[00:28:35] and they're getting to higher in 22 minutes.

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:40] We were talking to, you know, at Paradox

[00:28:43] and they were talking about clients

[00:28:44] getting to higher in 13 minutes.

[00:28:46] So this is happening.

[00:28:49] And again,

[00:28:50] At a certain level, high volume.

[00:28:52] Well, not all.

[00:28:53] Some are actually starting

[00:28:54] to actually boost past that

[00:28:56] and that's because they're starting to use

[00:28:57] some of those assessments,

[00:28:58] the performance-based assessments.

[00:29:01] But yeah, I think we're getting there.

[00:29:02] The problem is we have the leaders

[00:29:05] that are up here and they're the cream of the crop.

[00:29:07] They're 2% maybe

[00:29:08] and everybody else scratching their heads saying,

[00:29:11] what do we do?

[00:29:11] Oh no, that's too risky.

[00:29:13] What do you tell those people who are,

[00:29:14] it's too risky?

[00:29:16] I'd say it's time that generation turn over.

[00:29:19] Yeah, go home.

[00:29:20] Go home.

[00:29:21] Fire yourself.

[00:29:22] There's a beach with your name on it.

[00:29:23] There's two issues.

[00:29:25] Leaders who are afraid to take on

[00:29:28] some of the tough issues that we're dealing with,

[00:29:31] they need to be replaced long term.

[00:29:34] And that's not going to happen generationally

[00:29:38] unless we have a new sense of leaders

[00:29:41] at the TA and at the CHRO level

[00:29:46] who are willing to confront them

[00:29:47] with the kind of data

[00:29:49] that demonstrates that their point of view

[00:29:52] is not workable.

[00:29:53] Not workable for the future.

[00:29:55] And that it's going to impact the performance

[00:29:57] of that company probably in the long term

[00:30:01] or certainly in the long term

[00:30:02] and maybe even in the short term.

[00:30:04] And I'm convinced that if I were that young person

[00:30:08] doing that, I would be doing that

[00:30:10] because I knew how I acted

[00:30:12] when I was at Johnson & Johnson and other companies.

[00:30:15] But I also know that I probably would get fired.

[00:30:18] At least once.

[00:30:20] It's worth it then.

[00:30:21] We've talked about efficiency

[00:30:22] and sort of moving fast.

[00:30:25] Curious your thoughts on the state of DEI.

[00:30:30] We've seen a lot of companies fire,

[00:30:33] heads of DEI programs at companies

[00:30:35] but we also see companies

[00:30:37] that are embracing it and benefiting from it.

[00:30:39] What's your take on the state of DEI?

[00:30:41] I wrote an article on that.

[00:30:43] I think part of it is directly related

[00:30:47] to the Supreme Court decision

[00:30:49] that was misinterpreted

[00:30:50] when it focused in on Harvard and UNC

[00:30:54] in terms of affirmative action.

[00:30:56] And the problem is that Harvard and UNC

[00:31:00] were basically trying to have a diverse freshman class.

[00:31:05] So there's nobody in the freshman class.

[00:31:06] You're starting from scratch.

[00:31:08] And if you're starting from scratch,

[00:31:10] you need to have a yardstick

[00:31:11] for what that diversity should look like.

[00:31:14] And if you're starting with zero,

[00:31:16] it should look a little bit like our country.

[00:31:19] So if you put your finger on the weighting of race,

[00:31:23] for example, to about 18%,

[00:31:25] which is a percentage of black folks in the United States,

[00:31:29] you would be fine according to what

[00:31:31] the Supreme Court actually wrote.

[00:31:33] The reason why the Supreme Court acted the way they did

[00:31:36] is because Harvard didn't have that,

[00:31:38] nor did UNC.

[00:31:40] And so the impact was that other underrepresented classes

[00:31:46] were now squeezed because of more weighting

[00:31:50] in one or more of the underrepresented groups.

[00:31:54] And so you need to have an understanding

[00:31:57] of what the underrepresentation is in our society

[00:32:01] and in your company

[00:32:03] in order to build a good strategic plan,

[00:32:06] a yardstick if you will,

[00:32:08] for what we're going to do

[00:32:10] in order to have a more equitable,

[00:32:13] if you will, from an opportunity point of view,

[00:32:16] company in terms of our hiring.

[00:32:18] So I believe that that misunderstanding

[00:32:23] of what the Supreme Court did from my reading

[00:32:27] and from my discussions with some of the lawyers

[00:32:30] who also have been spending time on this

[00:32:33] is that we're going to have to start thinking

[00:32:35] more dramatically about the kind of data

[00:32:39] that exists out there.

[00:32:41] So 4.7 million people started the ninth grade this year.

[00:32:47] 86% of them went into public school.

[00:32:52] About 7, 8% went into private school

[00:32:55] and the rest were in like home school kind of thing.

[00:32:58] On the public school side,

[00:32:59] if we took a random sample of 100,000 of just that group,

[00:33:04] they'd look like America, you know?

[00:33:05] I mean, ninth grade kids, right?

[00:33:08] Yeah, they'd be private charters.

[00:33:11] But now if you took a random sample,

[00:33:13] but obviously they're in different places

[00:33:14] and different types of schools.

[00:33:16] Yeah.

[00:33:16] There are, so I'll give you a quick,

[00:33:18] just a quick sense of this.

[00:33:21] 80, something like 87% of the public school kids

[00:33:25] will graduate from high school.

[00:33:27] 98% of the private school kids

[00:33:29] will graduate from high school.

[00:33:31] Close to 75% of the high school kids are white.

[00:33:34] 45% of the public school kids are white.

[00:33:38] That's an aggregate, U.S.?

[00:33:40] And I'm getting this from the National Association

[00:33:42] of Educational Diversity something,

[00:33:45] something I can give you the source.

[00:33:47] So I spent several hours on this.

[00:33:50] So think about what starts to happen

[00:33:53] from ninth grade on.

[00:33:54] Two thirds of the kids who graduate from high school

[00:33:57] will go to college.

[00:33:59] About two thirds of those who go to college

[00:34:04] will graduate.

[00:34:05] We're down to about 30,000 out of the 100,000 now.

[00:34:09] Okay.

[00:34:09] So first of all, we lost 70,000 people

[00:34:13] who are going to graduate from college after six years.

[00:34:16] That's interesting because obviously

[00:34:19] we're trying to get away from just saying college degree

[00:34:22] in terms of what that potential is,

[00:34:24] but that's another piece of that.

[00:34:25] Right.

[00:34:26] Of the 30,000,

[00:34:28] 2,000 will be engineers.

[00:34:31] Of the 2,000 engineers,

[00:34:32] 480 will be mechanical engineers.

[00:34:36] So of the 100,000 people starting ninth grade,

[00:34:38] there's 480 mechanical engineers.

[00:34:41] And the reason I go this way is because

[00:34:44] you don't hire engineers.

[00:34:45] You hire a mechanical engineer,

[00:34:47] you hire a high-speed packaging engineer,

[00:34:49] whatever it is.

[00:34:50] Right.

[00:34:50] Of the 480 engineers,

[00:34:54] or mechanical engineers,

[00:34:56] 65 are women,

[00:34:58] 28 are Latina,

[00:35:00] Latino,

[00:35:01] 20 are black.

[00:35:03] Now I'm not making judgments on anything

[00:35:04] because there's a lot of choice in here,

[00:35:06] but somewhere along the line

[00:35:08] there's opportunity and there's outcomes.

[00:35:10] Yeah.

[00:35:10] And we as a society,

[00:35:13] but also we as employers,

[00:35:15] need to start looking at where we intervene

[00:35:18] in that sequence from ninth grade

[00:35:21] to college and beyond

[00:35:24] in terms of how we're providing more opportunity

[00:35:27] to increase the pool

[00:35:29] that gives us what we're looking for in the long run.

[00:35:32] And I look at companies like Wegmans,

[00:35:35] for example, that spend an enormous amount of money

[00:35:38] in hiring interns in high school

[00:35:40] who are at risk for graduating

[00:35:43] and give them jobs at Wegmans after school

[00:35:46] and mentors to help them understand

[00:35:48] the importance of graduating.

[00:35:50] And their outcome is significantly changing

[00:35:54] the percentages of at-risk kids

[00:35:56] who graduate from high school

[00:35:58] who then get sponsorship and work and everything else.

[00:36:01] Well, they understand their responsibility

[00:36:02] to the community, right?

[00:36:04] Most companies do not give two shits

[00:36:06] about their responsibility.

[00:36:07] They care about shareholder value

[00:36:09] and they don't care about any of that,

[00:36:10] this shit that we're talking about right now.

[00:36:12] How are we going to get that to change?

[00:36:14] Is it just going to be the only way

[00:36:15] that you can actually compete?

[00:36:17] It's a change in society.

[00:36:19] What is the choice that you're making

[00:36:21] in terms of where you want to work?

[00:36:22] And part of it is we've got a new generation

[00:36:25] of folks who are coming in,

[00:36:27] which I encourage and engage in

[00:36:30] in terms of them say, how important it is for them

[00:36:34] to work for a company that has some connection

[00:36:37] to the community, some willingness to do that,

[00:36:39] and that they personally are willing

[00:36:41] to make commitments like that as well.

[00:36:43] That's kind of how our country got to where it is

[00:36:46] in a positive way,

[00:36:48] and I think we need to refine that as well.

[00:36:51] So I don't think it's something I can do

[00:36:53] or you can do individually,

[00:36:55] but I do think it's something

[00:36:56] we all have to do collectively.

[00:36:58] I know there's a big rant, but what the hell?

[00:37:01] I'll let you out on this one, Jerry.

[00:37:02] We're here at the Unleashed Conference.

[00:37:04] You've been to a ton of conferences.

[00:37:05] Anything at this one stand out to you?

[00:37:07] Any memorable experiences or takeaways?

[00:37:10] There was a professor, I think early on in the first day

[00:37:13] who was talking about AI,

[00:37:16] but was actually doing it

[00:37:18] at the same time he was talking about it.

[00:37:20] And he probably is, I hope they recorded it

[00:37:24] and show that because that would be the one thing

[00:37:27] that I would look at over and over again.

[00:37:30] So there's that.

[00:37:31] I think, as I said, there's an awful lot of efficiency.

[00:37:34] I don't see an awful lot of things

[00:37:36] that are changing the game here.

[00:37:38] I see a lot of things that are trying to make

[00:37:40] whatever it is you think you're doing

[00:37:42] a little bit better.

[00:37:43] And I think it's important to realize

[00:37:46] that those of us who have spent time

[00:37:49] looking at this for hours and hours and hours,

[00:37:51] that there's a lot of people

[00:37:52] who are looking at it for the first time.

[00:37:55] And they're just about to figure it out.

[00:37:59] And so people are coming here

[00:38:03] with different levels of expertise.

[00:38:05] And I think it's great,

[00:38:07] but I do think the quality of the attendees here

[00:38:11] is quite high.

[00:38:12] And hopefully they're taking back

[00:38:14] something that they can use.

[00:38:16] And thanks to you, the level of quality

[00:38:18] in our interviews has gone up on this show.

[00:38:21] That is Jerry Gandalf Crispin, everybody.

[00:38:25] We're live from the Daxter booth

[00:38:27] at the Unleashed Conference in Vegas.

[00:38:29] Jerry, for those who want to connect with you

[00:38:31] or the organization, where do you send them?

[00:38:33] If you Google my name, it can spell Jerry with a G.

[00:38:36] You can find me, Jerry Crispin, C-R-I-S-P-I-N.

[00:38:39] He'll be in the Airstream.

[00:38:43] And how many hats do you own?

[00:38:44] Probably 30 or 40, but I own 10 quality hats.

[00:38:50] So there's only 50 hat makers

[00:38:52] left in the United States for men.

[00:38:55] One is in Cave Creek.

[00:38:57] It's called Watson Hats, and it's in Phoenix.

[00:39:01] And the other one is in Santa Fe.

[00:39:04] And if anybody wants to go buy those hats,

[00:39:06] it's great, but it's not cheap either.

[00:39:08] Yeah, tell them Jerry sent you for the deep discount.

[00:39:12] Discount code Jerry with a G.

[00:39:15] G, that's another one in the can, Chad.

[00:39:17] Thanks, Jerry.

[00:39:18] We out.

[00:39:20] Thank you for listening to what's it called?

[00:39:24] A podcast.

[00:39:25] The Chad, the cheese.

[00:39:27] Brilliant!

[00:39:28] They talk about recruiting.

[00:39:30] They talk about technology.

[00:39:31] But most of all, they talk about nothing.

[00:39:34] Just a lot of shout-outs of people you don't even know.

[00:39:38] And yet you're listening.

[00:39:39] It's incredible.

[00:39:40] And not one word about cheese.

[00:39:43] Not one.

[00:39:44] Cheddar, blue, nacho, pepper jack, Swiss.

[00:39:48] There's so many cheeses and not one word.

[00:39:52] So weird.

[00:39:53] Anywho.

[00:39:54] Be sure to subscribe today on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play,

[00:39:59] or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[00:40:02] That way you won't miss an episode.

[00:40:05] And while you're at it, visit www.chadcheese.com.

[00:40:11] Just don't expect to find any recipes for grilled cheese.

[00:40:16] It's so weird.

[00:40:17] We out.