In this episode of Flipcast, Varun Duggirala converses with Saloni Shah, Chief Marketing and Digital Officer at L'Oreal India, discussing her journey in the industry and unveiling the drastic transition in the marketing and advertising landscape.
They discuss embracing the latest industry trends, building their audiences, and evaluating the yield from digital marketing efforts. Saloni also delves into how digitization has democratized the beauty industry, streamlining access to consumers and underpinning successful brand narratives.
Additionally, they talk about utilizing artificial intelligence, influencing consumer behavior, prioritizing sustainability, and the evolving skill sets required for marketers in the current era.
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Saloni Shah: I think what will remain imperative is that in terms
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Saloni Shah: of the consumption in terms of gathering the knowledge, it's
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Saloni Shah: largely driven online today. And we will continue to in
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Saloni Shah: times to come, measure the impact that all of the
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Saloni Shah: initiatives that we do in this space have in terms
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Saloni Shah: of business, which is both online and offline.
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Varun Duggirala: Hello and welcome to flip casts the digital marketing podcast
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Varun Duggirala: by flip card ads. I'm your host war gua. On
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Varun Duggirala: this podcast, we speak to industry leaders in the fields
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Varun Duggirala: of marketing and digital advertising. But what do you talk
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Varun Duggirala: to them about? We talk to them about the latest
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Varun Duggirala: trends in the fields of marketing and digital adverts. We
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Varun Duggirala: also tap into how they're building their audiences and driving
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Varun Duggirala: results in the digital marketing medium.
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Varun Duggirala: Our guest today is Saloni Shah. She's a chief marketing
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Varun Duggirala: and digital officer at L'Oreal India. She's been at L'Oreal
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Varun Duggirala: for over a decade, and in her current capacity she
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Varun Duggirala: is leading the transformation roadmap for India, focusing on four
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Varun Duggirala: key areas media, consumer experience, commerce and consumer insights and research.
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Varun Duggirala: Welcome to the show Saloni. Thank you, Varun.
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Varun Duggirala: After my long extended introduction, I want to kind of
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Varun Duggirala: get into the conversation and ask you in your role
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Varun Duggirala: as chief digital and marketing officer, how you seen digital
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Varun Duggirala: play a core part in the overall way in which
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Varun Duggirala: you connect to consumers.
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Saloni Shah: So, you know, for us, the beauty consumer has evolved very,
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Saloni Shah: very rapidly, and luckily, digital and beauty are a perfect match.
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Saloni Shah: Beauty is a category which is very, very visual,
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Saloni Shah: and at the same time it's very shareable on social media.
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Saloni Shah: And I think what digitization essentially has done has it
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Saloni Shah: has created democratisation in India and, you know, also for
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Saloni Shah: the brands in which we play today. When you look
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Saloni Shah: at E-COMMERCE, its services close to 99.9% of the PIN
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Saloni Shah: codes in the country makes more than 20 beauty brands
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Saloni Shah: available to the consumer.
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Saloni Shah: So really, I think digital and digitization has been the
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Saloni Shah: game changer for brands at L'Oreal. Um, it has essentially
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Saloni Shah: created a level playing field for us.
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Varun Duggirala: When you look at your own journey as a marketer
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Varun Duggirala: as a professional, especially over the last, let's say 78 years,
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Varun Duggirala: have you seen your role really change, especially with because
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Varun Duggirala: the landscape has changed so much additional become such a
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Varun Duggirala: core part of things how you see your role change
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Varun Duggirala: and also like, give an outlook of how the landscape
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Varun Duggirala: has changed along with your role really
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Saloni Shah: evolving. So So I keep joking around, you know, around
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Saloni Shah: an office these days that for me, life at L'Oreal
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Saloni Shah: and life in general pretty much has come a full circle. Um,
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Saloni Shah: you know, when I when I started off a decade ago,
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Saloni Shah: we were just two people doing everything linked to media,
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Saloni Shah: and at that 0.1% or less than 1% of digital,
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Saloni Shah: it was barely there, even in terms of thinking, you know,
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Saloni Shah: um and then as I as we went through the years,
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Saloni Shah: I think that started shifting instead of two people. Then
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Saloni Shah: we had a separate media team and a separate, uh,
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Saloni Shah: digital team, and Digital would look at everything that you
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Saloni Shah: are doing online, whereas media would continue to look at
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Saloni Shah: everything that you are doing offline.
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Saloni Shah: And I think the way that has changed is today
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Saloni Shah: The teams that we have are so you know, there
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Saloni Shah: is no media. There is no digital. Digital is a
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Saloni Shah: part of media online and offline. Um, you know, So
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Saloni Shah: they look at everything from whether it's television planning to
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Saloni Shah: planning on digital, to planning on Ecommerce
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Saloni Shah: because the consumer is one, you know, and we cannot
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Saloni Shah: plan an isolation in order to reach out to the consumer,
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Saloni Shah: you know? So I think that's really changed from looking
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Saloni Shah: at online separately, offline separately, ecom separately to looking at
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Saloni Shah: a world where everything is one.
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Saloni Shah: You know, when we when I started off And I'm
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Saloni Shah: sure you've seen that in your journey as well, you
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Saloni Shah: had to make a use case for brands to be
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Saloni Shah: on digital. You know, you had to really sell it internally.
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Saloni Shah: And I think my journey was similar. I started off
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Saloni Shah: in media and then two years into LA I was
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Saloni Shah: working on Ghana and it was really about How is
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Saloni Shah: it that you make a use case to sell a
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Saloni Shah: ₹40 of hair colour online? You know, So from that
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Saloni Shah: to today,
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Saloni Shah: um, you know, But I think it's fully evolved. We
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Saloni Shah: call it digital marketing, but I think it was more
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Saloni Shah: appropriate to call it digital marketing in the past because
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Saloni Shah: today all the marketing that we largely do is digital
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Saloni Shah: in nature, you know? And so when we call it
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Saloni Shah: digital marketing, I think we're still differentiating.
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Saloni Shah: Um, but in essence, I think it's come a full circle,
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Saloni Shah: because when I started off, it was marketing. It was
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Saloni Shah: one word, uh, to a point that we had to
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Saloni Shah: call it different names. Call it online digital et cetera.
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Saloni Shah: I think to to today, uh, where I think I
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Saloni Shah: see the move back on, you know, referring to it as, uh, marketing.
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Saloni Shah: So that's, uh that's how my journey has been.
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Varun Duggirala: And if you can look into
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Varun Duggirala: consumer behaviour, you know, looking at this way in which
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Varun Duggirala: consumers are now tapping into e-commerce to buy products, how
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Varun Duggirala: you see consumer behaviour really change.
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Saloni Shah: So I think I'll start with the consumer first. You know,
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Saloni Shah: for us, I think we see two broad spectrums of
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Saloni Shah: consumers which are very, very polarising.
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Saloni Shah: There are few who are looking for, you know, high value,
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Saloni Shah: high end, high differentiated products. And then there are many
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Saloni Shah: who are looking for value or sometimes extreme value in
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Saloni Shah: the products that they purchase. And I think that has
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Saloni Shah: given us a good standing because as L'Oreal, we operate
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Saloni Shah: in four divisions. So on one side we have the
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Saloni Shah: consumer mass beauty, and the other side of the spectrum,
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Saloni Shah: of course, is luxury.
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Saloni Shah: So it gives us a good spectrum to play in.
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Saloni Shah: So I think that's one shift that we see in
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Saloni Shah: terms of consumers. And I think the second largest shift
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Saloni Shah: is the fact that there are close to 6 59
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Saloni Shah: million smartphones in India today, you know, and everything that
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Saloni Shah: the consumer
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Saloni Shah: is doing is pretty much on that phone from the
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Saloni Shah: content that she's consuming to the way that she is
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Saloni Shah: shopping to how she discovers her products today. And even
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Saloni Shah: now where payment is concerned, you could pretty much spend
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Saloni Shah: an entire week or a month in the country today
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Saloni Shah: with just your phone.
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Saloni Shah: And, you know, with all of this, it has given
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Saloni Shah: us a chance to re look at the way we
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Saloni Shah: reach out to our consumers. Um, and and yes, we
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Saloni Shah: have a digital first mindset and everything we do in
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Saloni Shah: order to beat these shifts.
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Varun Duggirala: And how does this connect to the fact that obviously
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Varun Duggirala: there are single brand stores? You know, your multi brand retail.
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Varun Duggirala: There's also Ecommerce. They all kind of like it's this
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Varun Duggirala: mixture of all these things. How does how do you
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Varun Duggirala: keep
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Varun Duggirala: the conversation consistent across all of
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Saloni Shah: these? So I think it's it's not perfect today, right?
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Saloni Shah: I think times are evolving and we are. There was
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Saloni Shah: a time when we used to only think offline, and
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Saloni Shah: there is a time when the shift happened that we
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Saloni Shah: largely think online, but to think of each other
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Saloni Shah: to think of, you know, delivering the same consumer experience
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Saloni Shah: wherever the consumer goes. I think that is something that
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Saloni Shah: we are bringing in more and more with the help
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Saloni Shah: of data. We're starting with identifying who a consumer is
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Saloni Shah: getting his or her details and then understanding the way
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Saloni Shah: she shops to bring in seamlessness, regardless of the touch
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Saloni Shah: point at which at which she is present.
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Varun Duggirala: Lawyers is an established brand,
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Varun Duggirala: and one of the things when you look at this
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Varun Duggirala: segment physically, it's always been a try and buy kind
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Varun Duggirala: of a market, and people always want to try before
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Varun Duggirala: they end up buying and obviously went through a period
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Varun Duggirala: in time during Covid, where the trying couldn't happen and
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Varun Duggirala: that were left to some shifts. But how do you
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Varun Duggirala: see consumers today? Are they still looking for the trip part?
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Varun Duggirala: Are they comfortable in some areas? How do you see
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Varun Duggirala: that shift?
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Saloni Shah: So I think a basic consumer behaviour does not change
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Saloni Shah: right when they are consuming a category. It's not. The
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Saloni Shah: consumer is thinking. OK, you know, because we're interacting online,
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Saloni Shah: I'll behave differently versus offline. So I think what she
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Saloni Shah: seeks in the category pretty much remains the same.
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Saloni Shah: And I think Covid has accelerated a lot that we do,
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Saloni Shah: you know. But in 2018, L'Oreal acquired a company called
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Saloni Shah: Mo Face, you know, with their A I driven modelling.
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Saloni Shah: What they do deliver is a AR driven experience of
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Saloni Shah: how you could try the different shades of lipstick or
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Saloni Shah: liner or hair colour, for that matter. And I think
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Saloni Shah: we've We've implemented our virtual try ons today,
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Saloni Shah: uh, on flip car in order to exactly bridge this gap, right,
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Saloni Shah: because you know that one beauty is very, very nascent
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Saloni Shah: in the market. Uh, two. You want to try different
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Saloni Shah: shades because ultimately it's not about what a brand endorser
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Saloni Shah: says looks good, but It's about what you believe looks good,
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Saloni Shah: and you want to try and play around to see
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Saloni Shah: what suits your skin. Uh, and so we launched a
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Saloni Shah: virtual try ons on flip cart, and it's not that
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Saloni Shah: it's it's there only for the L'Oreal bouquet of brands.
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Saloni Shah: It's there across the category.
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Saloni Shah: So today, as a consumer, you want to go and
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Saloni Shah: try on different shades and see which brands you prefer
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Saloni Shah: or which you don't. You can pretty much do that
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Saloni Shah: seamlessly on eCommerce just the way you do it offline.
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Saloni Shah: So we are trying more and more to simulate offline
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Saloni Shah: experiences online and, in some cases, online experiences offline. As
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Saloni Shah: we continue to live in this digital world,
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Varun Duggirala: I feel another way. The whole offline to online pieces
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Varun Duggirala: happen is through influencers, because influencers are almost they're playing
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Varun Duggirala: the consumer in the way they they're creating content around products. Um,
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Varun Duggirala: I know that you miss in influencer marketing a fair bit.
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Varun Duggirala: How you seen that change? How? Let's say the brand
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Varun Duggirala: narrative gets built
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Varun Duggirala: also on the other end. How do you see that? Really,
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Varun Duggirala: you know, affecting how you connect to the consumer, how
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Varun Duggirala: you kind of build that drive towards results.
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Saloni Shah: So I think the consumer today is looking for authentic connections.
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Saloni Shah: And the consumer wants to build trust with the brands,
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Saloni Shah: you know, that they want to buy.
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Saloni Shah: They want to understand. What is it that these brands
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Saloni Shah: really stand for? Is it, um, you know, just the
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Saloni Shah: 22nd spot, Uh, that they see on television or another screen,
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Saloni Shah: which is enough to convince them to purchase, um, or
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Saloni Shah: does it take a lot more? And I think, um,
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Saloni Shah: at least in the case of beauty, uh,
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Saloni Shah: it takes a lot more, you know, like we were
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Saloni Shah: discussing earlier for the consumer. It's all about how does
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Saloni Shah: this look on me? And it's not really so much
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Saloni Shah: about How does it look on or rather, Hari, who
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Saloni Shah: are some of our endorsers. And so we do work
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Saloni Shah: with a fairly large influencer army, and the thought really
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Saloni Shah: is that
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Saloni Shah: you do the litmus test of your brands and your
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Saloni Shah: products through these people who are the real voice. Uh,
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Saloni Shah: you know, for the consumer, that's number one. Number two.
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Saloni Shah: advocacy also really works for us, because with the big endorsers,
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Saloni Shah: you talk about your product or brand maybe once or twice.
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Saloni Shah: So that's what you shoot, right?
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Saloni Shah: Uh, but with influencers, you could continue to activate differently.
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Saloni Shah: It's not just about one message that you you share
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Saloni Shah: about the brand, which is, you know, the US P
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Saloni Shah: or the reason to believe in it. But you could
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Saloni Shah: share a lot more in terms of how to in
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Saloni Shah: terms of regime and given again the Nancy that beauty
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Saloni Shah: has in India today. Given that we do want to
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Saloni Shah: build this category by establishing a lot of new gestures,
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Saloni Shah: education becomes,
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Saloni Shah: and I think advocacy also allows us to educate the
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Saloni Shah: market at large. So our dream really war is to
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Saloni Shah: be the beauty advisor to India, you know, and which
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Saloni Shah: is why we look at our content creators as our
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Saloni Shah: army of beauty and beauty advisors online. But that's really
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Saloni Shah: the way we look at it and into your question
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Saloni Shah: on Roi. I think everything that we do at L'Oreal
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Saloni Shah: is backed by data.
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Saloni Shah: So we have our triple ms in place which help
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Saloni Shah: us see the ROI in the midterm to long term.
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Saloni Shah: And then, of course, there is a lot of affiliate
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Saloni Shah: marketing that we do. Why are the influencers? In many cases,
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Saloni Shah: we use advocacy and the content that's created there to
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Saloni Shah: divert traffic online, say on the product detail pages of
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Saloni Shah: flip cart. And then there is an agreement of data
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Saloni Shah: pass back where you understand how that campaign is doing
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Saloni Shah: what is really converting, what isn't.
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Saloni Shah: So that's some of the ways in which we measure
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Saloni Shah: the work that we do on advocacy.
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Varun Duggirala: Explain triple M for for people who might not know
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Varun Duggirala: what that means.
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Saloni Shah: So it's a market mix modelling, which basically gives you
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Saloni Shah: a read of all of the different initiatives that you
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Saloni Shah: take through the year. How does it perform in terms
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Saloni Shah: of your return on investment? So it helps you read
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Saloni Shah: directionally where it is that you should be putting your
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Saloni Shah: marketing dollar.
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Varun Duggirala: You also mentioned the A I tool kind of brought
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Varun Duggirala: in to really bring in trying on digital platforms. Now,
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Varun Duggirala: in the
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Varun Duggirala: especially playing in the digital space and bring in new
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Varun Duggirala: technologies bring innovations really kind of change the way you're
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Varun Duggirala: almost shifting a consumer to experiencing something in a way
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Varun Duggirala: which feels so natural. But they didn't think of um,
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Varun Duggirala: can you dig into any other cases in this space
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Varun Duggirala: that you that you actually use technology to really enhance
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Varun Duggirala: the consumer experience but also, like, even look at how
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Varun Duggirala: you function internally in a way that makes it far
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Varun Duggirala: more interesting?
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Saloni Shah: I think in terms of technology per SE, I think
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Saloni Shah: Mo Face is one of the biggest interventions that we've made.
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Saloni Shah: Um, and it goes far beyond right because it's not
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Saloni Shah: about a one time thing, But it's about ensuring that
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Saloni Shah: the machine has enough, um, weight of data in order
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Saloni Shah: to learn and in order to give the right, uh,
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Saloni Shah: experiences today. Can we say that it's 100% there in
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Saloni Shah: terms of what you would actually try the product, uh, offline.
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Saloni Shah: You get the same sense online. No, it's not fully there. Um,
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Saloni Shah: but it's evolutionary, so I think one in terms of effort.
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Saloni Shah: We put a lot of effort out there,
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Saloni Shah: and I think then, in terms of technology, it's it's
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Saloni Shah: more about managing the back end, because what has also
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Saloni Shah: happened with so much of digitization and so many different
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Saloni Shah: touch points that have been fragmented and then so many
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Saloni Shah: different ecommerce players with whom we work is is the
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Saloni Shah: entire piece on content. You know you need to be
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Saloni Shah: making content on the fly for different platforms, for different needs.
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Saloni Shah: This is the funnel across brands,
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Saloni Shah: and I think what we have also done internally to
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Saloni Shah: manage this is that we've had we have a pin
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Saloni Shah: and dam in place to ensure that all of the
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Saloni Shah: content is lying in one place so that we could
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Saloni Shah: repurpose a lot of what we make and that there
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Saloni Shah: is a single repository for any starting point. You're not
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Saloni Shah: storing it in simple ways, so I think that also
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Saloni Shah: in terms of simplifying the complexities that exist in today's,
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Saloni Shah: you know, fragmented world
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Saloni Shah: helps us from an operational lens. But yeah, that's that.
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Saloni Shah: Those are some of the two things that we are doing.
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Varun Duggirala: I think it's also been testing through to what you
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Varun Duggirala: mean by dam.
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Saloni Shah: So Pim and Dam, basically the two systems that we
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Saloni Shah: use P stands for product information. Master
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Saloni Shah: and Dam is basically a data asset manager. What they
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Saloni Shah: essentially do is Pim is a repository of all of
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Saloni Shah: your product information, so the codes, the ingredients that go
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Saloni Shah: into it. A lot of times when you're optimising for
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Saloni Shah: search and the different copies that you write, all of
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Saloni Shah: that is stored within the PIM
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Saloni Shah: and within the dam, all of the creatives that you use,
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Saloni Shah: whether they're video, whether they're static, all of that is
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Saloni Shah: stored in one place. And then you. It also manages
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Saloni Shah: your IP rights, etcetera. Because you know what content is
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Saloni Shah: expiring when which also becomes important so that you know
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Saloni Shah: you're not sued later on by one of your
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Saloni Shah: loss or advocates. But that's essentially what it's
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Varun Duggirala: almost like managing all the assets in one digital depository. Yes, yes,
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Varun Duggirala: you mentioned two way communication with consumers, right? That's on
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Varun Duggirala: the game changes just to understand the consumer. Had there
00:16:44
Varun Duggirala: been certain aspects of understanding the consumer, almost elements that
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Varun Duggirala: came up about a consumer because of the two way conversation.
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Varun Duggirala: That kind of changed, how you looked at who Maybe
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Varun Duggirala: the actual consumer was has been OK. We never realise
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Varun Duggirala: these would also be consumers or like, this is how
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Varun Duggirala: the consumer thinks would they be Yeah,
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Saloni Shah: absolutely right. So at L'Oreal, we very also actively do
00:17:06
Saloni Shah: a lot of social listening, which feeds back into, you know,
00:17:10
Saloni Shah: our marketing communications brand product, etcetera
00:17:14
Saloni Shah: and, uh, earlier. The age old way of doing marketing
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Saloni Shah: is you look at demo NGO in terms of audiences,
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Saloni Shah: you know, it's a male or a female X to
00:17:22
Saloni Shah: Y age. Um, if you look at affluence and you
00:17:26
Saloni Shah: look at some of the markets in which he or
00:17:28
Saloni Shah: she is present,
00:17:29
Saloni Shah: But I think that's totally changed, right? Because there is
00:17:32
Saloni Shah: so much that the consumers also giving in via digital
00:17:37
Saloni Shah: so much that you try and understand why are the
00:17:39
Saloni Shah: reviews and ratings that are there, for example, on ecommerce
00:17:43
Saloni Shah: and so much of a behaviour?
00:17:45
Saloni Shah: We've really changed the way we look at, uh, you know,
00:17:48
Saloni Shah: the audiences today, uh, you're not looking for a certain
00:17:52
Saloni Shah: cohort specified by demographics and Geographics alone, but you're actually
00:17:56
Saloni Shah: looking at it more basis behaviour. And when you're trying
00:18:00
Saloni Shah: to reach out to the consumer basis behaviour, then you
00:18:02
Saloni Shah: are ensuring that you're not putting them in a very
00:18:05
Saloni Shah: tight box. But you're
00:18:07
Saloni Shah: creating different cohorts and different personas, ensuring that you target
00:18:13
Saloni Shah: different products based on what the consumer is really looking for, uh,
00:18:17
Saloni Shah: ensuring that your communication is then personalised in order to
00:18:21
Saloni Shah: reach out to the cohort. Um, so I think, uh, yeah,
00:18:25
Saloni Shah: I think that's that's the journey between what we used
00:18:28
Saloni Shah: to do in our
00:18:29
Saloni Shah: one way world versus what we do today in a
00:18:32
Saloni Shah: in a two way world.
00:18:33
Varun Duggirala: It's going to continue to be a seesaw or not.
00:18:36
Varun Duggirala: We've also been through almost. I call it three phases
00:18:39
Varun Duggirala: that we had. We had a phase pre covid, which
00:18:41
Varun Duggirala: is still predominantly offline based digital was kind of scaling
00:18:45
Varun Duggirala: up in terms of connecting consumers and moving for purchase
00:18:49
Varun Duggirala: and a period during covid where everything was digital.
00:18:52
Varun Duggirala: And now we're back in a scenario where it's almost
00:18:54
Varun Duggirala: like offline is making this comeback. How has the mix
00:18:57
Varun Duggirala: and how you look at really connecting? Consumers changed in
00:19:02
Varun Duggirala: the newest phase, which we we are in right
00:19:04
Saloni Shah: now, I think we always adapt right to the way
00:19:08
Saloni Shah: the consumer behaviour is changing.
00:19:11
Saloni Shah: Um, when it was offline, the modes of communication, et cetera,
00:19:15
Saloni Shah: was also offline. It's about then, ensuring you have the
00:19:19
Saloni Shah: right PS in store, the right branding, you know the
00:19:24
Saloni Shah: products are placed within
00:19:27
Saloni Shah: right category adjacency, et cetera. to a world that became
00:19:32
Saloni Shah: completely online during Covid. But I think that for us
00:19:35
Saloni Shah: in India was short lived. However, there is a lot
00:19:39
Saloni Shah: of acceleration that happened in terms of understanding
00:19:43
Saloni Shah: the consumer behaviour on digital to the world today, which is,
00:19:48
Saloni Shah: you know, consumers are researching online, comparing prices online but
00:19:53
Saloni Shah: going and buying offline. I think what remains important is
00:19:58
Saloni Shah: what we partly discussed before, you know, to ensure that
00:20:01
Saloni Shah: brands are providing seamless information across on
00:20:07
Saloni Shah: and both offline. It's not that, you know, there is
00:20:11
Saloni Shah: a difference that the consumer feels in the way she
00:20:13
Saloni Shah: experiences the brand. And I think that for us is
00:20:17
Saloni Shah: what is going to change in times to come because
00:20:20
Saloni Shah: you know you, for example, look at pricing. It's completely
00:20:24
Saloni Shah: different on Ecommerce today versus how it is managed in offline.
00:20:28
Saloni Shah: You know, the level of product information
00:20:31
Saloni Shah: that is available offline is just what you see on
00:20:34
Saloni Shah: the back of a pack versus on online today on
00:20:37
Saloni Shah: E commerce. You have so much of in depth A
00:20:39
Saloni Shah: plus content, you know, on the pages for consumers to
00:20:43
Saloni Shah: know and research about your brand. There are ratings and
00:20:46
Saloni Shah: reviews that help guide the consumer in terms of what
00:20:50
Saloni Shah: may work or what may not work. So I think
00:20:53
Saloni Shah: it's a combination
00:20:54
Saloni Shah: that we are also grappling with in terms of understanding.
00:20:57
Saloni Shah: But I think what will remain imperative is that in
00:20:59
Saloni Shah: terms of the consumption in terms of gathering the knowledge,
00:21:03
Saloni Shah: it's largely driven online today and we will continue to
00:21:08
Saloni Shah: in times to come measure the impact that all of
00:21:11
Saloni Shah: the initiatives that we do in this space have in
00:21:13
Saloni Shah: terms of business, which is both online and
00:21:15
Varun Duggirala: offline. It's interesting you mention behaviour as a way to
00:21:18
Varun Duggirala: look at a consumer right
00:21:21
Varun Duggirala: and look at behaviour, especially in today's world, which is
00:21:23
Varun Duggirala: so performance driven when it comes to really selling to consumers.
00:21:27
Varun Duggirala: It's also the old element of brand building. How do
00:21:30
Varun Duggirala: you look at balancing brand building and performance, especially now
00:21:34
Varun Duggirala: that look at behaviour and also the dynamic way in
00:21:37
Varun Duggirala: which you are connecting with the consumer?
00:21:39
Saloni Shah: So I think the perfect balance we still to arrive
00:21:43
Saloni Shah: at right because I think both have their pros and
00:21:46
Saloni Shah: cons that you can measure in the immediate
00:21:50
Saloni Shah: short term effect. So to say, I think when it
00:21:54
Saloni Shah: when it comes to performance. Really? Today, you know the
00:21:58
Saloni Shah: entire data and the intel that the Ecommerce platforms have
00:22:02
Saloni Shah: to offer where you can so minutely and clearly know
00:22:06
Saloni Shah: and differentiate a consumer who is purchasing the category but
00:22:09
Saloni Shah: not purchasing your brand
00:22:11
Saloni Shah: know of consumers who are not purchasing the category at all. Or,
00:22:15
Saloni Shah: for example, consumers who have purchased some of your categories
00:22:20
Saloni Shah: within brand A but not the others, you know, and
00:22:23
Saloni Shah: you can clearly understand these signals on income.
00:22:27
Saloni Shah: And I think, uh, on performance, you're largely then planning
00:22:32
Saloni Shah: basis sufficiency. So you understand how big each of these
00:22:35
Saloni Shah: cohorts are. And then depending on the objective. Because, you know,
00:22:39
Saloni Shah: if you're a challenger brand, uh, then you're not looking
00:22:42
Saloni Shah: so much to grow the category. Uh, but maybe to
00:22:45
Saloni Shah: win from immediate competition. So basis sufficiency. We arrive at, uh,
00:22:49
Saloni Shah: how much is needed to spend
00:22:51
Saloni Shah: also on Ecommerce or D to C because it's the
00:22:54
Saloni Shah: last mile of conversion. A lot of budgeting is then
00:22:58
Saloni Shah: decided basis. How much really is needed in order to
00:23:01
Saloni Shah: build that channel profitably.
00:23:03
Saloni Shah: Um, so I think for performance, it's it's more sufficiency based,
00:23:07
Saloni Shah: and I think then, when it comes to branding, it's
00:23:10
Saloni Shah: really about The entire game is largely about reach and
00:23:15
Saloni Shah: frequency in a way. Because you you you try and
00:23:17
Saloni Shah: identify the cohort size that you need to reach in
00:23:21
Saloni Shah: order to make your eventual conversions happen through the entire
00:23:24
Saloni Shah: brand health funnel,
00:23:25
Saloni Shah: um, and then ensuring that you're speaking to the consumer
00:23:29
Saloni Shah: enough times, uh, and not overdo it and creating sort
00:23:33
Saloni Shah: of avoidance but doing it enough number of times in
00:23:36
Saloni Shah: order for some recall and some residue to be left.
00:23:40
Saloni Shah: So there are a lot of modelling exercises, uh, that
00:23:43
Saloni Shah: we do internally in order to arrive at the perfect combination.
00:23:47
Saloni Shah: And then, of course, uh, you know, we are subscribed
00:23:49
Saloni Shah: to all of the brand health trackers that are there,
00:23:52
Saloni Shah: where you can, on a month on month basis,
00:23:55
Saloni Shah: measure input versus output and also see that impact in
00:23:59
Saloni Shah: the middle to long term. So I think based on
00:24:02
Saloni Shah: some of these methods, we try and understand how much
00:24:06
Saloni Shah: we should be spending on performance versus branding. But what
00:24:11
Saloni Shah: we clearly know about is that it's not either or,
00:24:13
Saloni Shah: you know, it is always a combination, and we will
00:24:18
Saloni Shah: with all of the data and the A I and
00:24:20
Saloni Shah: the ML that exists today. At some point, I at
00:24:23
Saloni Shah: that sweet spot.
00:24:25
Varun Duggirala: I also know that you know, L'Oreal has a strong
00:24:27
Varun Duggirala: focus on sustainability. Um, especially with the amount of consumption happening, there's,
00:24:32
Varun Duggirala: you know, there is a clear focus on saying that.
00:24:35
Varun Duggirala: How do you make this responsible in that sense So
00:24:37
Varun Duggirala: la we can tap into that part and see what
00:24:39
Varun Duggirala: all are you doing to kind of, you know, build
00:24:41
Varun Duggirala: that into how you function.
00:24:43
Saloni Shah: So I think at L'Oreal we really respect the Earth's
00:24:47
Saloni Shah: planetary boundaries. You know that exist and we have a
00:24:52
Saloni Shah: dedicated programme which is called L'Oreal for the future
00:24:57
Saloni Shah: and under which, you know, we are taking up several
00:25:00
Saloni Shah: different sustainability initiatives, some that are in India and some
00:25:04
Saloni Shah: that are global in nature, you know, from saving the
00:25:08
Saloni Shah: oceans to ensuring plastic waste management, which is an initiative,
00:25:13
Saloni Shah: you know, that Ghana has picked up and it's created
00:25:17
Saloni Shah: a recycling for
00:25:18
Saloni Shah: facility in Chennai, where we're recycling close to 2000 tonnes
00:25:23
Saloni Shah: of plastic. So I think on one end, yes, we
00:25:27
Saloni Shah: are trying to drive more and more sustainable sustainability in
00:25:32
Saloni Shah: the work we do. But on the other side, we're
00:25:35
Saloni Shah: also trying to ensure that our products are more sustainable
00:25:38
Saloni Shah: in terms of packaging. We're also trying to
00:25:40
Saloni Shah: wait in terms of ensuring that, you know, when you're
00:25:43
Saloni Shah: using a shampoo, can you really create something that uses
00:25:46
Saloni Shah: less water? So I think we're trying to approach it
00:25:50
Saloni Shah: from a two or three pronged strategy in terms of
00:25:53
Saloni Shah: product packaging and then, you know, try to recycle everything
00:25:57
Saloni Shah: that we put out there on the planet. So, yeah,
00:25:59
Saloni Shah: so that's some of the work that we do around sustainability.
00:26:02
Varun Duggirala: Considering everything that is happening in this space, how do
00:26:05
Varun Duggirala: you keep yourself updated about you know, not just about
00:26:09
Varun Duggirala: trends and everything else that is going on, but really
00:26:12
Varun Duggirala: getting a broader perspective on the entire space as well?
00:26:16
Saloni Shah: I think the best way to to to really stay
00:26:19
Saloni Shah: updated is, uh, via interactions. You know, we are also
00:26:23
Saloni Shah: a very, very people driven organisation. So we believe in
00:26:27
Saloni Shah: networking networking for the right reasons, not not in order
00:26:30
Saloni Shah: to get something done, but networking more to know what's
00:26:34
Saloni Shah: happening and the changes that are happening around.
00:26:36
Saloni Shah: Um so I think the best way, uh, where I
00:26:40
Saloni Shah: ensure I keep myself updated. One is building those connections
00:26:46
Saloni Shah: outside the organisation with partners with with people in the
00:26:50
Saloni Shah: industry to really understand what's coming, what's new? Um, you know,
00:26:55
Saloni Shah: I think that's one way and I think the other
00:26:58
Saloni Shah: one is getting the right people on your team, you know,
00:27:02
Saloni Shah: because
00:27:03
Saloni Shah: it's not possible to know everything at every given point
00:27:05
Saloni Shah: in time. But if you get people who are truly
00:27:08
Saloni Shah: good at what they do, I think they will help
00:27:11
Saloni Shah: upscale the teams. They will help upscale organisations and ensure
00:27:17
Saloni Shah: that you know organisations stay ahead of the curve and
00:27:21
Saloni Shah: not just some people within a specific team. So I
00:27:25
Saloni Shah: think
00:27:26
Saloni Shah: hire the right folks. I think that's that's what That's
00:27:29
Saloni Shah: what has worked for me so
00:27:31
Varun Duggirala: far and looking at how dynamic this entire space has
00:27:33
Varun Duggirala: gotten almost the skill sets required, the upskilling required to
00:27:38
Varun Duggirala: function as a marketer is just like kind of changed, right.
00:27:42
Varun Duggirala: There was a point of time when the skill sets were.
00:27:44
Varun Duggirala: I mean, I wouldn't say finite, but they felt finite
00:27:46
Varun Duggirala: compared to what it is like, right now, Um, if
00:27:49
Varun Duggirala: I if I'm a young marketer young brand today looking
00:27:52
Varun Duggirala: at OK, navigating everything across brand building E-commerce across the board. Um,
00:27:58
Varun Duggirala: what are the skill sets that
00:28:00
Varun Duggirala: someone needs to kind of really, you know, work on
00:28:02
Varun Duggirala: building and what should you upskill themselves towards? So
00:28:07
Saloni Shah: I think there are 22 mantras that I think that work.
00:28:11
Saloni Shah: You know, I think the first one which is which
00:28:14
Saloni Shah: is again a very Loreal mindset,
00:28:16
Saloni Shah: is that we believe to seize what is just starting.
00:28:21
Saloni Shah: I think experimentation becomes very, very key instead of looking
00:28:26
Saloni Shah: at newness from a distance because I think a lot
00:28:29
Saloni Shah: of times in bigger organisations you resist change, you know,
00:28:33
Saloni Shah: which is why indie brands do so well because they
00:28:35
Saloni Shah: don't have the baggage of that legacy. There is no
00:28:39
Saloni Shah: resistance because, you know you're discovering as you
00:28:41
Saloni Shah: along. So I think it's important to seize what is starting,
00:28:45
Saloni Shah: whether it was just offline or only online or now
00:28:48
Saloni Shah: the combination world that we talk of which is online
00:28:51
Saloni Shah: or offline, to continue to keep reinventing, to continue to
00:28:55
Saloni Shah: test and learn and scale what's working, I think, becomes very,
00:28:59
Saloni Shah: very crucial and I think the second mantra, and I
00:29:04
Saloni Shah: think it's a very, very important one. That is a
00:29:07
Saloni Shah: called Think again by Adam Grant, and he talks about,
00:29:11
Saloni Shah: you know, unlearning and relearning. And I think in today's
00:29:16
Saloni Shah: dynamic day and age, it's the key to anything that
00:29:21
Saloni Shah: you do. You know, when when covid hit all of
00:29:23
Saloni Shah: us it was about unlearning what we knew back then
00:29:26
Saloni Shah: and relearning how the consumer behaviour, everything is shaping up
00:29:30
Saloni Shah: and changing so rapidly.
00:29:32
Saloni Shah: And today again, uh, the behaviour post covid seems to
00:29:36
Saloni Shah: have changed right, because while consumers are still digitally more
00:29:39
Saloni Shah: savvy while payments have completely to a large degree, uh,
00:29:43
Saloni Shah: in the big cities changed to digital,
00:29:46
Saloni Shah: um, offline still very much exists, you know, And so
00:29:50
Saloni Shah: to unlearn what we then knew during covid about the
00:29:52
Saloni Shah: consumer to relearn and relocate the same principles that maybe
00:29:56
Saloni Shah: didn't work then but may work today, uh, becomes very,
00:29:59
Saloni Shah: very important. So I think it's it's more about having
00:30:02
Saloni Shah: that mindset, Um, and being very, very, uh, driven to
00:30:06
Saloni Shah: learn to learn all the things that are, uh, new,
00:30:10
Saloni Shah: you know, we don't have to become hardcore experts and
00:30:13
Saloni Shah: everything
00:30:14
Saloni Shah: But, you know, today the buzzword of Gen. It's not
00:30:18
Saloni Shah: that everybody needs to be a coder and understand how
00:30:21
Saloni Shah: it's done. But I think what will be important is
00:30:24
Saloni Shah: understanding the application of what Gen. A. I could do
00:30:27
Saloni Shah: for your businesses, you know? So it's not really about
00:30:29
Saloni Shah: becoming the expert itself, but drawing this is the experience,
00:30:34
Saloni Shah: the application of that expertise, which which I think
00:30:39
Saloni Shah: is something that, uh, we in today's day and age
00:30:43
Saloni Shah: need to keep in mind as marketers,
00:30:45
Varun Duggirala: apart from these attributes, are there specific things you look
00:30:48
Varun Duggirala: at when you're hiring people in your team? Um, I
00:30:51
Varun Duggirala: know that people are always looking out saying, OK, what
00:30:53
Varun Duggirala: do I need to, you know, what are the elements
00:30:57
Varun Duggirala: you look at, what the elements you look at when
00:30:59
Varun Duggirala: you're hiring someone for a team like us. So I
00:31:01
Saloni Shah: think, um,
00:31:04
Saloni Shah: I think one of the key things, um that, you know,
00:31:07
Saloni Shah: I'd I'd love to look for is, um, the inclination
00:31:12
Saloni Shah: the person has towards beauty. Uh, because today, if you
00:31:16
Saloni Shah: yourself aren't consuming so much of the category or you're
00:31:20
Saloni Shah: you're not a fine to it or you're not really
00:31:22
Saloni Shah: passionate about it,
00:31:24
Saloni Shah: then building it, then selling it, then creating stuff around
00:31:27
Saloni Shah: it is is is lip service, you know. So I
00:31:30
Saloni Shah: think the first thing we look for is the fit
00:31:32
Saloni Shah: to beauty, the fit to the culture of the organisation.
00:31:36
Saloni Shah: And really, if you're going to thrive in that environment
00:31:38
Saloni Shah: or not, you know, I think that's that's one element.
00:31:41
Saloni Shah: And I think, um, the second one
00:31:44
Saloni Shah: and I say this more because within the entire marketing
00:31:48
Saloni Shah: digital E-commerce arena of things, specialisation is key. But I
00:31:53
Saloni Shah: think I'm a believer of will over skill. So I
00:31:56
Saloni Shah: think if somebody has the willingness to learn they can
00:32:00
Saloni Shah: learn any skill set. You know they can acquire any
00:32:02
Saloni Shah: skill set at one point of time, Digital belly existed.
00:32:06
Saloni Shah: You know, when I I told you when I started
00:32:08
Saloni Shah: off in L'Oreal it was It was the age old
00:32:12
Saloni Shah: offline media
00:32:13
Saloni Shah: I learned along the way. You know, to a point
00:32:15
Saloni Shah: where it's now largely an Ecommerce driven world. It didn't
00:32:20
Saloni Shah: exist in the days that I came from, but then
00:32:23
Saloni Shah: you continue to learn. So I think it's about the
00:32:27
Saloni Shah: will to learn, because if you really have that And
00:32:30
Saloni Shah: if you're passionate about what you're building and the brands
00:32:32
Saloni Shah: that you stand,
00:32:33
Saloni Shah: you will eventually pick up the skill sets that you
00:32:36
Saloni Shah: need in order to win. So I think these are
00:32:39
Saloni Shah: some of the things that I look for when we're
00:32:41
Saloni Shah: looking at the right people to join us. And
00:32:44
Varun Duggirala: what's also really happened is the landscape has really shifted.
00:32:47
Varun Duggirala: I think, you know, like few platforms like Flipkart, where
00:32:50
Varun Duggirala: the ECOM really kind of came in allowed.
00:32:53
Varun Duggirala: You know, brands really sell online and directly connect to consumers.
00:32:57
Varun Duggirala: You had legacy brands coming in and and selling on
00:32:59
Varun Duggirala: the platform. You also had independent indie brands coming in
00:33:02
Varun Duggirala: which came bought. So look at the entire mix of,
00:33:05
Varun Duggirala: of independent and legacy. How do you see the landscape
00:33:09
Varun Duggirala: really shaping up
00:33:10
Saloni Shah: one like like we were discussing Digital E-commerce has created
00:33:14
Saloni Shah: at a level playing field. You know, access for brands
00:33:17
Saloni Shah: to consumers has become fairly easier. You don't need the
00:33:22
Saloni Shah: full blown shoots that you needed at one point with
00:33:25
Saloni Shah: massive money in order to be on television, where you
00:33:27
Saloni Shah: end up reaching out to everybody, whether or not they
00:33:29
Saloni Shah: were your consumers. I think Digital has really changed that,
00:33:33
Saloni Shah: because in far lesser scale
00:33:35
Saloni Shah: you could actually get significant scale. You could have precision
00:33:39
Saloni Shah: and speak to just the consumers that you need. So, uh,
00:33:45
Saloni Shah: you know, will in the brands continue to exist 100%.
00:33:49
Saloni Shah: I think they challenge the legacy brands more and more
00:33:52
Saloni Shah: on the New Age on the digital first thinking they've
00:33:55
Saloni Shah: really ensured that they speak to the consumer in a
00:33:59
Saloni Shah: way that's more relevant, you know, with so much of digitization,
00:34:03
Saloni Shah: it's a two way street, right? Because on social and
00:34:06
Saloni Shah: on digital, even the consumers can speak with you. And
00:34:10
Saloni Shah: for years we've done marketing and advertising in a way
00:34:13
Saloni Shah: where it's just one way. Speak where the brand is
00:34:15
Saloni Shah: the only one speaking to the consumer. So I think
00:34:17
Saloni Shah: a lot of that has changed. But you know, honestly,
00:34:21
Saloni Shah: regardless of whether you're a legacy brand or you're an
00:34:25
Saloni Shah: indie brand, um, what will remain very, very important
00:34:30
Saloni Shah: in times to come is, uh, you know, winning the
00:34:34
Saloni Shah: share of the consumer's heart and mind. Um, because with
00:34:38
Saloni Shah: a million products available on Ecommerce today, we're digital making
00:34:41
Saloni Shah: so many brands more known to the consumer,
00:34:44
Saloni Shah: there is only as much that the consumer is going
00:34:47
Saloni Shah: to remember. And so I think, the focus on brand building,
00:34:51
Saloni Shah: regardless of the life stage of the brand, or regardless
00:34:54
Saloni Shah: of whether you speak to the consumer online or offline,
00:34:57
Saloni Shah: or whether he or she is buying on eCommerce or otherwise, um,
00:35:02
Saloni Shah: brand building brand awareness to ensure that in today's driven
00:35:06
Saloni Shah: today's performance
00:35:08
Saloni Shah: driven world, you continue to build your love for your brand.
00:35:11
Saloni Shah: I think will remain, um important and will remain key.
00:35:15
Saloni Shah: And it is brands that manage to do this. Um,
00:35:19
Saloni Shah: that will finally take the
00:35:21
Varun Duggirala: cake. I'm pulling this one off as a as a
00:35:23
Varun Duggirala: question that's been on my mind is saying, um, this
00:35:26
Varun Duggirala: podcast is called flip casts. If you had to forecast
00:35:28
Varun Duggirala: for the future, what would you look at as trends
00:35:30
Varun Duggirala: for the future?
00:35:32
Saloni Shah: I think, uh, one trend that I see coming for
00:35:36
Saloni Shah: sure is that the world is going to be omni
00:35:40
Saloni Shah: an Omni channel. Uh, you know, consumer interactions. Consumer journeys
00:35:46
Saloni Shah: are not going to remain linear. Um, the funnel that
00:35:49
Saloni Shah: we've spoken about over all of these years and and
00:35:52
Saloni Shah: put some science basis and some structure basis is going
00:35:55
Saloni Shah: to collapse. You know, it's it's not
00:35:58
Saloni Shah: any longer going to be a world where the first
00:36:01
Saloni Shah: time the consumer experiences your brand is going to be
00:36:04
Saloni Shah: via our 22nd app. It's possible that the consumer experiences
00:36:09
Saloni Shah: it when she's browsing on an Ecommerce site, trying to
00:36:12
Saloni Shah: find something else but stumbling upon something else. And that's
00:36:15
Saloni Shah: how she gets aware about the brand. So I think
00:36:18
Saloni Shah: the first trend that is surely coming in India is
00:36:23
Saloni Shah: going to be that the world is going to be
00:36:25
Saloni Shah: Omni Channel,
00:36:26
Saloni Shah: which makes it very, very complex. And so we will
00:36:28
Saloni Shah: have to simplify the things that we do and the
00:36:31
Saloni Shah: way in which we do things in order to win this,
00:36:35
Saloni Shah: I think the second trend and, you know yes, of course,
00:36:39
Saloni Shah: At one point there was the entire meta was Web
00:36:41
Saloni Shah: 3.0 etcetera, etcetera. But I think, uh, JA I and
00:36:46
Saloni Shah: a IML et cetera, is going to be here to stay.
00:36:50
Saloni Shah: You know, simplifying sometimes a lot of the work that
00:36:53
Saloni Shah: we do,
00:36:54
Saloni Shah: ensuring it helps us bring in a lot of productivity,
00:36:57
Saloni Shah: whether it's internal, whether it's consumer facing,
00:37:00
Saloni Shah: Um So I think how a I impacts businesses in
00:37:04
Saloni Shah: times to come is something that we will watch out for.
00:37:09
Saloni Shah: But I think these are some of the two big
00:37:11
Saloni Shah: trends that I think are going to be coming away soon.
00:37:14
Varun Duggirala: Thank you so much for coming on, Flip Castellon. You've
00:37:17
Varun Duggirala: shared a lot of stuff for all of us. Kind
00:37:19
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00:37:21
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00:37:24
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00:37:25
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