The CATK Interview: Zach Nunn

[00:00:00] We've been about this work diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, shared through the voices of a white woman and a black man. We bring lived experiences.

[00:00:12] We have pursued D&I progress for most of our professional lives. We use Crazy and The King to cover news, tips from colleagues and hosts, incredible guest listeners.

[00:00:24] We count on Julie and I to transparently drive the conversation. We thank you for rocking with us. Check it, Julie kick off the show.

[00:00:37] It is happening. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Crazy and The King.

[00:00:42] Hey, I know you've heard that phrase. Angry.

[00:00:47] I could probably pick anyone that I want, but because we are having a special conversation today. I know that you've heard the phrase angry black man.

[00:01:04] Yeah. When you when you heard that phrase like this is well before you rocking with Torrin Crazy and The King. So this is pre.

[00:01:15] 2018. When you heard the phrase, Jay, what did you think? And I really want you to just try to go back even if it causes you to pause be silent for a moment.

[00:01:30] Be honest. I really want you to think when you heard phrases like angry black woman, angry black man because they never said angry white woman.

[00:01:40] They've never said angry white man. It's always been angry black man, angry black woman occasionally maybe. But that typically is the phrase.

[00:01:50] What did you think prior to doing all of this work in diversity and inclusion? And how are you?

[00:01:57] Yeah, it's a great question because the way I think about angry black man actually changed dramatically after you and I became friends because we had very different conversations than I've ever had in my life about it.

[00:02:12] But that being said, I mean, I feel like when I heard it as a kid, it was just sort of probably something I heard pretty regularly as a kid.

[00:02:22] So it was just a common descriptor that I don't know if I took it as good or bad, but it certainly probably created something in me that started to set that bias as a child that I had to work through.

[00:02:37] But I think the other thing is that when I think about it as kind of my first adult reactions, it was always about someone who was asking for what I had.

[00:02:49] Just normal things, normal things like Malcolm X is an angry black man. Dr. King was an angry black man.

[00:02:57] Reverend Sharpton's an angry black man. It was always in it for me at least my first reaction and this really is like truly you're getting it firsthand for me is that it was always directed at activist class black men as a way to demean them.

[00:03:14] And I didn't realize that or understand that until I was probably in my 20s that that's that was done with purposeful action.

[00:03:23] Yeah, so let me ask you, you know, and I know I cut you off. I apologize to a degree, but you said something and I want to I want to see if we can get in that conversation just a little bit.

[00:03:35] You said you didn't recognize it first you started as a child and I know what you I think I know what you mean when you say as a child, you know, a mid level teen, older teen 181920 where you really recognizing what's happening.

[00:03:51] Actually, it was happening before that.

[00:03:53] I mean, as a kid, I grew up in a very racist part of the country still is a very racist part of the country. And so to I don't remember ever hearing like the n word as as a kid but it was derogatory.

[00:04:07] Interesting.

[00:04:08] Yeah, very, very derogatory. So yeah, I'm talking I may my brain it was like seven eight nine.

[00:04:14] Okay, got it. Got it. Thank you for that. All right, cool. So then you say that you began to when you really paid attention to the phraseology and and maybe even silently uttered it yourself.

[00:04:29] It was typically towards those that were more of the activists. And so I think I heard you say it was really in your 20s that you began to sort of wrestle with that understanding and really how it meant you use the word to

[00:04:43] mean I would like to throw in a word to diminish if that's okay with you, you would use it to devalue you to diminish to to distract individuals.

[00:04:55] If you will from what was being said and so for you now does it sit. How does it sit now when you hear that phrase does it cause you to pause when you say if you hear it from someone or you read it somewhere.

[00:05:11] Do you take a moment to say wait a minute. Let me evaluate who they are attaching it to why they are attaching it and sort of process it differently. What do you sort of take yourself mentally through.

[00:05:26] Yeah, so there's two times that actually kind of stand out to me in this moment. The first one is not long after you and I met and you told me a story about something that you said on stage that caused you some pain.

[00:05:39] And Chad and I actually stopped and we talked about it. And I'm like, I can get away with less saying less things than he can. You can get away with saying less things I think sometimes then I can as as as I'm a you know an angry psycho woman you're angry black man

[00:05:58] then check and get away with right there's like I can see clearly sort of that distinguishing now in a way that I couldn't until I knew someone who was a black man who had sort of a sort of has a platform.

[00:06:12] Yeah, that like what that conversation caused me to do was always to think about how you have to say things differently than I have to and I have to say them differently than you do.

[00:06:25] And that's one of the things I have learned a lot from you. The other time is not an angry black man but an angry black woman when we had when we had. Oh my God, when we had Michael's wife on Melissa, the man that that

[00:06:42] died a couple of years ago now the disabled black man why is my brain blanking on the last name. Michael and Melissa and I was talking to someone who worked at the hospital and they started degrading her diminishing her account of what happened as an angry black woman.

[00:07:02] And I was like hit me immediately and I was fucking furious I'm like, I can see what's happening. I can see you know the words that you're using are meant to lessen my opinion of her or the validity of her claim.

[00:07:20] And you are doing it on purpose. And that was like, oh this crazy aha moment for me of going like no, no that's I can see it.

[00:07:31] And now it's in someone it's happening someone to someone that I know and and and you're doing it to her in front of me that was like that has set with me the whole time.

[00:07:43] Yeah, I want I'm looking away from the camera. I'm literally trying to I see the last name it begins with an H and for whatever reason I cannot think of Michael's last name right now and it's really blowing my mind because it was such a great example just to disregard in which they

[00:08:02] the way that they devalued the wife go ahead say it.

[00:08:06] Nixon.

[00:08:07] Nixon that's it I know begin with a H thank you.

[00:08:10] Michael Hixon, you know and the way that they devalued his wife the family did not listen to her just the agony in the voicemail I remember I wish I could Google real quick.

[00:08:22] The episode in which we talked about them I want to see actually I got to do that you know what I have to do that just so I can.

[00:08:31] I think that that was like episode July 8 of 2020 episode 21.

[00:08:38] I believe that was 21.

[00:08:40] So the reason I bring that up is because we're going to have a conversation today with Zachary none from Living corporate and I wanted to have this conversation.

[00:08:51] And thank you again for just your honesty and your transparency your slight moment of vulnerability vulnerability.

[00:09:00] Your revelation if you will because I think it's extremely important for people to understand.

[00:09:06] Why certain personas persons why we show up the way that we show up unapologetic unwavering relentless if you will.

[00:09:22] Determined in how we present the information how we challenge individuals to live and wrestle as my good friend Dr. Cornel West says wrestle with what it means to be human.

[00:09:36] Zachary none challenges you to wrestle with what it means to be human in the corporate corridor and he does it in a way again that is listen I'm not I'm not trying to be mean spirited.

[00:09:48] I'm not trying to be bombastic in and toxic in the bowling the China shop.

[00:09:56] I'm just simply saying here is this is the these are the facts and I want you to see the facts for what they are one thing that I like about Zach is he's not an individual who was going to spend a great deal of time in inordinate amount of time.

[00:10:14] Trying to go back and forth negatively.

[00:10:19] And you and I talked about this there are some people that we have considered bringing on our show and we've said you know well I know yeah we just decided maybe not now perhaps another time but maybe not now because that's not the energy in which we want to be captured.

[00:10:41] In recorded in history on our show Zach has a voice that we want to be recorded historically on our show and so I think it's going to be important for people to receive him differently than.

[00:10:58] Then they made with that whole angry black man so let's take a quick break and let's get to Mrs. Acton.

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[00:11:48] So you know I in our prep torn for this conversation with Zach CEO and founder of Living Corporate.

[00:11:55] We were talking to Zach about you know what really started as a monthly singular podcast and now it's turned into this multimedia network called Living Corporate.

[00:12:05] And you know how important it was for Zach to sort of think beyond just corporate diversity equity inclusion programs as they are and sort of bring us into a larger conversation.

[00:12:21] Yeah absolutely and I mean when we when we had Zach it was it was beautiful for him to really paint a colorful picture around the broadness of D&I and D&I related content.

[00:12:35] And it's not that that content had to sit only in one place or business unit inside of the organization but the broader collective of contribution you know how we would raise and provide that content for the larger audience.

[00:12:52] And so if we can let's just pick up where Zach really reinforced the need for this broader curation of content.

[00:13:00] You know so it torn as we were prepping for this call with Zachary Nunn CEO and co-founder of Living Corporate a new media platform.

[00:13:11] You know Zach really told us he thinks corporate diversity equity inclusion programs are a scam and we're going to get to that in our conversation but you know what we really wanted to know is how does this monthly singular podcast turn into this multimedia network.

[00:13:27] And why was it so important that Zach take this conversation in this direction.

[00:13:33] Yeah it was it was a really good conversation I mean we talked about online trolling we talked about you know some of the things that he's said around respectability politics and the workplace but really we have to start with why Living Corporate is here.

[00:13:48] And for Zach it was just about they're not being any content. They're not being enough content. They're not being enough individuals that are contributing to the curation of that content and I think third and most importantly where this content was coming from.

[00:14:04] Zach really really felt like we should have a broader range of voices contributing to the conversation and so that's where we actually pick up in this episode of Crazy and the King.

[00:14:16] I just want to make sure that listeners heard what Zach said in that response and in such he didn't he didn't lay the responsibility of curating that content on a particular department like learning and development or a particular role like a chief diversity officer.

[00:14:38] He put it on a broader audience of individuals and you know really what he is asking each of you to do encouraging each of you to do instructing each of you even though it was a post response.

[00:14:54] We got to shift our relationship with power we have to demand something different of those that are responsible for feeding including developing and inspiring us inside of our workplaces which is in part why we have Living Corporate.

[00:15:09] Go ahead Jay.

[00:15:11] Yeah I mean I think just even more bluntly is that all of this is about keeping white people comfortable in power certainly but also comfortable with their power and not making us have those uncomfortable conversations because then we may not choose to participate.

[00:15:31] What would we do if if a white person chose not to participate.

[00:15:35] And a quote that you had Zach in that voyage Dallas I really loved is the reality is anytime you explicitly push to advocate for black and brown people you'll face some adversity.

[00:15:49] We've had external pressures to broaden our platform to center white men in our work and stray away from certain terms in language like white supremacy racism and white fragility.

[00:16:02] You go on to say I honestly take that as a sign that we're on track because we're genuinely looking to include all perspectives you've had white folks on but we always want to center on the most marginalized.

[00:16:15] And my question in that is you know what's the backlash been from you know your your employer your sponsors listeners who are sort of lurking or trolling when you had that really frank conversation of we are we are staying centered on the population and the group that we are most interested in raising up.

[00:16:40] Yeah, thank you for the question so the backlash comes in a few different ways.

[00:16:46] One of course on YouTube.

[00:16:48] Every first of all we don't even like promote our content on YouTube like that we use YouTube just like for SEO purposes but every now and then like a bunch of trolls will find a YouTube video and then start just comment bombing.

[00:17:01] Disliking whatever the case is living corporate as a podcast on Apple podcast suffered a few trolls.

[00:17:12] But I'll say this is like we've been really fortunate and not getting super attacked.

[00:17:20] Like again like I can point to like a handful of videos and a handful episodes where we've gotten.

[00:17:25] I can you know maybe like seven or eight emails like you know but again like compared to other platforms not that crazy.

[00:17:30] And then I think the other piece is when it comes to like our sponsors.

[00:17:33] We're really selective and thoughtful in like who we choose to work with because we're very explicit and intentional about what our brand is and what we're doing.

[00:17:43] So we don't get backlash like from our from any sponsors.

[00:17:47] That's also though why we don't do a lot of like dynamically entered ads we don't do we don't work like that like any brand that we work with they know we're here to center and amplify black and brown voices that does not mean we're here to necessarily demonize any other group.

[00:18:01] We are going to speak historically factually quite objectively.

[00:18:05] Again factually about the landscape that within which we exist and that if that happens to hurt your feelings.

[00:18:13] Well maybe you take the opportunity to learn and grow right but I'll say I'll say for us is that we've been really fortunate like if I was to compare I would say like if I was going to play like all of our inner engagement right I would only say maybe like 15% of it is racist trolls.

[00:18:29] And I think that's pretty great when I look at other platforms and spaces where you know it's my behalf and then you and then you become the space where like the majority of your content is clapping back at racist trolls and like.

[00:18:43] I respect people on LinkedIn who do that like who take the time to write content to shut racist down and all that kind of stuff.

[00:18:49] I feel like that's kind of like throwing a tennis ball against the wall.

[00:18:52] I don't know if you're really ever going to win that match.

[00:18:54] I'm not interested in doing that I'm interested in creating content that centers them finds black and brown people.

[00:18:59] And so I'm never going to fall into the trap of like oh they wrote this about me or I don't like there's probably like 30 comments on a we had an interview with our cyber route and Regina Jackson who created race to dinner.

[00:19:14] And there's probably like 100 comments on there that are all like race I'm not about to be on YouTube dog arguing with y'all back and forth and commenting and trying to justify my position.

[00:19:24] We had we've had all you know I'm not doing that like y'all have a blast with that.

[00:19:28] Thank you for giving our engagement numbers up.

[00:19:30] I'm gonna stay on my mission.

[00:19:32] I'm staying on our purpose and I'm going to continue with that and our sponsors appreciate that and I appreciate that as do we and you know when when Julie said a moment ago white fragility it leads to a clip.

[00:19:44] You know that I captured earlier in the year or shall I say late in the year you actually did an interview.

[00:19:49] You did an interview with some folks over at blind and one of the hosts in this right here.

[00:19:58] I'm saying blind and I'm saying the host Jack Kelly and his co-host Rick Chen but I say their names not in a way of being punitive but amplifying or showcasing real time that white fragility that you mentioned.

[00:20:14] So in this clip.

[00:20:17] Jack is answering a question that you had your question to him was do you really believe that do you really believe that something is being taken away from you so before you respond let's let listeners hear the clip.

[00:20:35] So what are you alluding to with the first thing you're saying that you think they're like you saying you think they're like black people have like some type of privilege they give more scholarships than white people.

[00:20:44] Absolutely.

[00:20:46] That's not that's not factual.

[00:20:48] So you should you should like you should like you should you should study because that's not true.

[00:20:51] Well think about it because every every every company right you need a certain you know there's trying to have diversity in the workforce and if you have if you may have two people of similar skills.

[00:21:05] Oftentimes the higher person who is kind of who fits the bill that they say hey we have to give that person a job it just happens.

[00:21:14] I see that for the last you know twenty something years with my own eyeballs.

[00:21:19] But like what but what but what data says that's not accurate though.

[00:21:23] I see it all the time.

[00:21:25] But Jack that's not that's that's factually not true.

[00:21:32] So so so Zach what do you think about that like I know you meant what you said but maybe you even have a different 90 day perspective since that was you know 60 days.

[00:21:44] 60 90 days ago maybe there's even more that you would have wanted to say to him he didn't provide you with data.

[00:21:51] What struck me the most is that he says twice three times I've seen it happen and then he said over the last 10 or 20 years.

[00:22:01] Like I was like floored that this guy really thinks that jobs are being given to black and brown people in other marginalized underestimated communities.

[00:22:15] More than they're being given to white men.

[00:22:19] I was just floored by that and he was serious he was genuine and serious.

[00:22:23] Yeah so it was it was wild because.

[00:22:29] So OK so let me so let me keep it a thousand thousand first of all I got mad love for Rick and blind.

[00:22:37] So while he was if y'all hear the whole episode it was it was strange and I think I said something like this is actually really interesting to engage in this in real time but I was also hitting up Rick on the side and I was like hey man your host is wild.

[00:22:51] Like I was really confused.

[00:22:54] And what I was thinking about in real time Torn was like and well it was just it was like man like these white folks are really really threatened by non white people like and it was scary.

[00:23:11] And I think I said this later in the conversation because I say you should read more I told him you should you should pick up something you did you sure like you absolutely did.

[00:23:20] Because because it was scary to me because like man this is a grown man like torn like I think he's older than me and you dog like he's grown.

[00:23:28] So it was scary like you've been living life long enough and your advising executives and you've been doing recruiting you he said himself I've been recruited for 20 plus years whatever he said.

[00:23:38] I'm like bro like you by the merit of your own experience.

[00:23:42] You should have a more informed position.

[00:23:44] So it was scary.

[00:23:46] It was sad and it made me mad because it was like well damn like this is kind of the example of what I mean like there are people out here who really are dedicated to making themselves victims that people dedicated to using their anecdotal experiences which is again through the lens of their own biases

[00:24:04] to then make broad statements about whole groups of people that have been oppressed and I think the last thing I'll say is it hurt me because it's like it's like dog like later in that conversation.

[00:24:18] He kept talking and I kept just saying hey let's look at let's just look at the data trends like let's look at the data and then like in real time if y'all like one of if y'all listen to the whole episode you in real time.

[00:24:29] He made some kind about what about these poor white guys who are losing jobs to women and what happens to them.

[00:24:37] And I said first of all white men are not white men are overly represented in executive position so I don't care about what happens to white men but to if that white man was to like lose a job out to a woman he'll just end up getting another job somewhere else he'll be fine and he

[00:24:54] because he had a little goofy example and then he backdoor and said well yeah I mean with the guy I'm talking about he'll just getting another executive.

[00:25:02] I was like well so what are you talking about Jack like where do we actually have a conversation about at this point right and so it just becomes like this huge exercise and just ego insecurity and weakness.

[00:25:15] I don't want to say fragility because fragility intimates some level of like care that needs to be taken or some level of life something precious.

[00:25:23] There's nothing precious about white people constantly having to stamp down black progress black voice black black anything black and brown in the name of your power sustain that is not there's nothing precious about that that is sick.

[00:25:42] It is destructive.

[00:25:44] It's oppressive.

[00:25:46] Right it's wrong.

[00:25:48] And so like you know and I know people have taken issue with like even the term white fragility like if anyone is fragile.

[00:25:54] It's oppressed people because we've been beat down and yet we have to continue to stand back up and and and deliver in spite of we have to continue to grow and be successful in spite of we are the ones who should who should be treated with some fragility because of the the the other

[00:26:12] oppression that we have faced historically and the and the micro macro aggressions we continue to experience right anyway you asked me one simple question torn I went off.

[00:26:21] No I appreciate it but I appreciate it.

[00:26:24] Yeah, I mean I just I love the way that you just sort of couch that because it is I mean I'm sitting here as a white woman watching this cringy as fuck conversation that this this white man is bringing to the table and it is weakness.

[00:26:42] It is there's no other way to say it it is just pure and simple weakness especially when you know so calmly and much to much power to you on the ability to stay calm there.

[00:26:54] Is that you kept saying the data doesn't support it the days of data doesn't support it and he just sort of could not live outside of his own bias that example of like well I've seen it I've seen it I've seen it.

[00:27:05] Todd that that was hopefully he watched it himself and has had some sort of epiphany about how he represented himself to the rest of the world.

[00:27:16] You know and I just want to kind of go back to some of the things that we're talking about kind of in the beginning is you know during the introduction.

[00:27:27] Part of that introduction was that you're just not sold on DEI be efforts in the workplace.

[00:27:35] Talk to us more about that and about respectability politics in the workplace and you know where do we go from here yeah.

[00:27:44] Yeah, I'm not so so here's the thing like when you really examine the cons like concepts around inclusion and equity they all go back to power.

[00:27:54] Everything goes back to power right so like if you really want to create an environment where people are included and are treated equitably and are have a sense of belonging then give those groups of people power so that they can help shape the work environment that is beneficial and helpful to them.

[00:28:17] Folks don't do that because.

[00:28:21] They don't.

[00:28:24] See black brown queer disabled women any intersection of all the all the different dimensions that I just named as worthy of quote unquote ruling of worthy of leadership right they don't and so because there's a refusal.

[00:28:46] Because I would say resistance but at this point I think we can see now it's it's it's more than resistance it's refusal to really empower and put and and seed.

[00:28:57] Power from to these people then like we end up just kind of having a bunch of dog and pony shows like we end up having like a bunch of.

[00:29:07] Performative theater that looks good right that's why even like shoot I was talking with living corporate living corporate we have a job board we just launched it in July, this is going somewhere I promise.

[00:29:20] And organizations want to work with our job board and they quickly go yeah we have some great entry level positions that we can put on your job board and I pause and I say that's interesting because I sent you my my information deck about my audiences and you know if you look at my information deck I have a standard information deck I send out to everybody.

[00:29:37] One of the slides is who's our core audience and part of our audiences gen Z years part of our audiences gen millennials gen Xers and then young baby boomers, and then I talk about it's black, it's black and brown here the cities.

[00:29:54] So for you to look at that information and then say for you to default still or without even asking who our population is to default and say we got some great entry level positions we have some great college positions it's like.

[00:30:06] We are in like we're just we're honestly conditioned to see black and brown to see non white straight men as inferior and so.

[00:30:17] So that's part of like just how D I or the I be or ID or whatever however you want to however you want to act you know make the acronym up.

[00:30:29] There's limits there because there's a genuine resistance and refusal to seed power so that's the first thing and then when it comes to respectability politics I think.

[00:30:39] You know, because whiteness is seen at kind of going back to what I said earlier, like whiteness is seen as the deep is the default.

[00:30:48] And it is also the ideal.

[00:30:50] It is the it's the it is the North Star to be so what happens is you have black and brown folks were conditioned and this has been a store historically for our own survival to quote unquote code switch to put on a different personality persona voice to better assimilate into these majority white spaces I think the obvious.

[00:31:17] The obvious fact though that destroys all of that that destroys all of the whole goal of coaching is that white people know that you're not white.

[00:31:29] Okay, so I'm going to show up I'm six to 285 pounds.

[00:31:35] I am black.

[00:31:37] It does not matter how I conjugate my verbs it does not matter the tone in which I take in my speech pattern.

[00:31:45] It doesn't matter what pop culture I decide to reference it does not matter the humorous phrases I may take on.

[00:31:54] It doesn't matter how much I follow.

[00:31:56] Nask it doesn't matter.

[00:31:58] You're not going to do enough to outpace the fact that they see your different skin or the fact that they know that you're not a man or that you're like there, you can't you cannot outperform racism you cannot outperform your pigmentation.

[00:32:15] And so the trick we've but a lot of us, we've we've deluded ourselves even now in 2022 that if we dress a certain way if we speak a certain way if we walk a certain way.

[00:32:29] Then white people will suddenly treat us like we're not not white and we'll be able to ascend and I can tell you going back to what you said about my conversation with Jack.

[00:32:42] The data shows that respectability politics are not beneficial to black people as a whole right.

[00:32:48] We have fewer black CEOs fewer black board members now than we ever had before in the past like 4050 years like our numbers are not growing and increasing right like they're not more house is not churning out black CEOs every year they're not you don't see a bunch of black CEOs coming out of how like these are some of the the mechas of black people.

[00:33:12] We don't see a bunch of respectability right these these space spellmen we do not see these are the places where black white organizations flock to to get black talent and yet.

[00:33:24] And yet, even with that, we don't see booms of black representation and and even mid level manager positions like let's not even talk about C suite let's just talk about like director up like executive up we don't see a bunch of us.

[00:33:42] I'm on the go my goal is to be as free as possible in these spaces that do not want me to be free I'm going to show up as authentically me as I possibly can every single day I'm going to say what I want to say.

[00:33:57] I'm going to say it with respect because I expect respect back.

[00:34:01] I'm going to serve others.

[00:34:03] I'm going to be gracious.

[00:34:04] I'm going to be kind and I'm going to be me, but I'm not going and I'm not going to swallow who I am in the name of being accepted or thinking that that's going to be some type of camouflage it isn't it's not possible.

[00:34:17] You know you mentioned pop culture just a few moments ago as well as you know the not menacing of words and you actually you have some things to say so I'm I'm going to assume that.

[00:34:30] A few months back you saw the social post of one of the rap stars and the political mouthpieces wearing shirts that said white lives matter.

[00:34:41] And you know it's one of those things where I don't comment I don't really share those things because I just don't want to give them my attention I don't want to amplify it I just I like to stay away from that.

[00:34:52] But the part that I do want you to comment on is the Coonerary you've often talked about the Coonerary that takes place in some people.

[00:35:00] Zach may hear that as being offensive, but the reason I'm bringing that up is because more often than not.

[00:35:09] White people will look at black people and assume that we are doing D&I only for the favor or advantage of other black people that we are doing this work because we are protecting our own that we will support all of our own in a monolithic type way what I see.

[00:35:28] In you in me and then certainly a number of others is that we for the bullshit.

[00:35:34] And so you you will call out that Coonerary why is it important for you personally to hold all audiences accountable.

[00:35:47] Hey, because you're absolutely right I'm gonna call out when I see it because it's destructive it's harmful drone right so like I'm a call I try to call things down the middle.

[00:35:57] And I'll say it's it's there's a certain additional level of harm that happens when you have it when you have white supremacy dressed up like white supremacy and blackface.

[00:36:12] You know like it's interesting we actually had Caitlin Rosenthal on this was years ago like this is like maybe two years ago.

[00:36:21] Dr. Caitlin Rosenthal is the author of this.

[00:36:25] This book called accounting for slavery and it's a study of organizational management.

[00:36:32] Or rather how slavery shadow slavery helped to shape and create a lot of the organizational management structures that we that we look at today it's very very riveting work.

[00:36:46] I would recommend everybody check it out it's incredible but the point of it what you talked about was is that.

[00:36:52] The whole idea of white folks delegating other black folks sometimes black folks who are maybe older or who are maybe.

[00:37:02] I may be had a disability like a physical disability or too tired to week to work or could not work in the conditions almost say they're weak but they were to they could not fulfill the the the field hand duties they would be overseers they will be overseers under the chief overseer right.

[00:37:21] And.

[00:37:23] I am sensitive to the idea of black folks oppressing or creating other oppressive barriers for other black and brown folks I'm sensitive to.

[00:37:34] I'm sensitive to that because it's an there's a it's insidious and it's.

[00:37:38] There's a there's a layer of harm that black folks who decide to be cunish can take on torn because they can their camouflage they are camouflaged with other black folks at least or other black and brown people at least for a season because they look like the people that they are oppressing.

[00:37:56] And so it's important that they get called out.

[00:38:00] And not they don't and not that they get called out in a silo but they have to be named because all skin folk are not careful.

[00:38:09] And if you don't name those people who are being harm harmful then like you have all sorts of damage and chaos that could be created over time because they could be quietly usurping genuine efforts to really create equity at work.

[00:38:25] But you think this person on your side meanwhile they're running back to Massa.

[00:38:29] Tell him talking about you or or they just kind of throw little wrenches in what you're doing asking you well what does that really mean and why don't we try this and try that and it it dilutes the message it it it just it's harmful.

[00:38:42] And so it's important that those people held accountable within the context of this larger white supremacist system I've yet to ever call out like a black diversity inclusion leader or brown diversity inclusion leader.

[00:38:55] Without naming the system that they're participating in and really calling out that CEO right next to him because I only moving like that because they're empowered to move.

[00:39:04] Interesting. You know what what he's saying Jay what I'm hearing if I if I could synthesize that is those folks that are in blackface undergirding white supremacy and institutional systems that oppress other people that pulling that ladder.

[00:39:25] They are the ones that are pulling that ladder up making it harder for other individuals to receive the development that they are so deserving of the inspiration that they are so deserving of the resource that they absolutely are deserving of those individuals are they are.

[00:39:43] They are they are the chaos in the system and he is absolutely right we need to underscore them and so let me go back and just make a brief edit to my piece I said.

[00:39:53] The rap star in the political mouthpiece that would be Kanye and Candace Owens yes that would be those two individuals that are dangerous and.

[00:40:05] You know they're the ones that are pulling the ladder up so Jay take it away.

[00:40:08] Yeah incredible incredible conversation I've enjoyed it immensely if you're interested in connecting with Zach learning more about living corporate you can go to their website living dash corporate dot com.

[00:40:25] Zach's on Twitter at Rev none and you and wisdom Zach where else can our listeners connect with you and your team over at living corporate.

[00:40:34] You know what just Google living corporate you know I mean like y'all got a bunch of links every day that y'all got to get out there.

[00:40:41] Just just check out living corporate.

[00:40:45] All right.

[00:40:47] Wow what a conversation you can only say wow when we have somebody who who is able to like talk about the corporate community talk about the social community talk about pop culture if you will love how he could weave in a little bit of

[00:41:04] his opinion around politics.

[00:41:06] Zach we really appreciate you for joining us here on Crazy in the King.

[00:41:11] The Jim Stroud podcast explores the discoveries and trends forming the future of our lives brain to brain communication robot bosses microchip implants for workers and artificial intelligence replacing human workers are all happening now if you want to know what's happening next subscribe now to the Jim Stroud.

[00:41:41] Your voice segment is where we amplify women that are making moves and first up Jay I think you like the folks at power to fly.

[00:41:50] I do I do so power to fly co founders Melania Barry and Catherine Zaleski to fast track economic equity by upskilling and connecting underrepresented talent to roles in highly visible sectors love it.

[00:42:06] And we have Dr Sheila Robinson she is a celebrated publisher bestselling author on leadership inspiring speaker and talent innovation specialist.

[00:42:18] Her company is diversity women media has been recognized nationally as a leading multi platform enterprise with program offerings that advances all dimensions of diversity and inclusion.

[00:42:33] And to wrap up this episode Julia Guerin manager of education partner program at HubSpot and Kim Diaz director of talent and outreach at Pixar these two names came from the untapped 100 DEI be leaders for 2022.

[00:42:51] As always you can check out the full list at untapped dot IO untapped dot IO some incredible names on that list.

[00:43:00] And if you missed our episode with Tariq Myers you can kind of scroll back.

[00:43:06] I know it dropped at some point in early October go catch the replay and while you're there make sure you sign up for our newsletter crazy in the king dot com we close reminding each and every one of you to share the pop with your digital tribe and find your voice be a better human let's create better culture teams and workplaces for now.

[00:43:27] Jay and I are in that holiday spirit.

[00:43:31] And we're ghosts.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

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