Swallowing the Sun: A Conversation with Lakshmi Puri

Join us on 'Chasing Creativity' for an enlightening dialogue with Lakshmi Puri, former assistant secretary-general at the United Nations and author of 'Swallowing the Sun.' Explore the intersections of leadership and the power of storytelling as Lakshmi shares her insights and experiences from her distinguished career. From the corridors of the UN to the pages of her book, discover the wisdom and inspiration behind her remarkable journey.

[00:00.000 --> 00:11.000] Before we begin, I wanted to give a huge shout out to Amazon Music for partnering with me on this episode of Chasing Creativity, but more on this later. Let's get right into today's episode. [00:23.000 --> 00:29.000] Hello and welcome to the latest edition of Chasing Creativity. This is Kiran Manral. I'm chatting with Lakshmi Puri. [00:30.000 --> 00:40.000] Who has been India's ambassador, who has been at the United Nations for over 15 years and who's also been a leader at UN Women, most recently for seven years. [00:40.000 --> 00:45.000] This is all before she wrote her debut novels, following the sun and we're going to be chatting about that. [00:45.000 --> 00:50.000] Welcome to Chasing Creativity Lakshmi Ji. I'm so honored to have you here with me on the podcast. [00:50.000 --> 00:56.000] Entirely my honor and privilege and pleasure. Good to see you again. [00:56.000 --> 01:09.000] Likewise, and congratulations on the book. It's a wonderful book. I have not reached the end yet, but I've been fascinated and I think honestly I've been rationing it out somehow subconsciously because I don't want it to end. [01:09.000 --> 01:19.000] I've been enjoying reading it so much. So it's been like, today I've got to read 50 pages, today I would read 100, so many pages and okay let's delay the end for a bit. [01:19.000 --> 01:28.000] I know this book has been a long time in the making. It has been years and years that you started it when you were an ambassador in Budapest. [01:28.000 --> 01:38.000] And that was 20 years ago, two decades ago. But you are ageless and as glorious as always from the time I've been following you on Twitter for years and years. [01:39.000 --> 01:53.000] But tell me when you started this book and it is a book that is so firmly set in the pre-independence era and it has so many layers to it and you're writing it from a space that was distant from home. [01:53.000 --> 01:59.000] How did the book come to you and how was the genesis of this entire plot? [01:59.000 --> 02:09.000] So this following the sun was in its germ very much within me for many years and if not decades. [02:09.000 --> 02:23.000] It is something that I wanted to do as a tribute to my parents, but also as a tribute to an era to our independence movement, [02:23.000 --> 02:47.000] to the young people who were engaged in that independence movement and also I wanted it as a way of my reliving the world that I vicariously lived all the time when my parents were alive and heard their stories. [02:48.000 --> 03:07.000] So it was, you know, all of that. And then of course, as it happened, the story of my mother's journey of empowerment, her and her sisters was something that I wanted to tell because as a feminist, [03:08.000 --> 03:21.000] as a UN women leader and activist, so all of that came together. But of course, that was when I actually started writing. [03:22.000 --> 03:44.000] The immediate kind of trigger was this treasure trove of 148 love letters that I chanced upon when we were clearing up our previous house and moving to Budapest. [03:45.000 --> 04:04.000] My husband was moving to London, so we were clearing up. And then we found this tin trunk with nearly, you know, at that time it was say about 75 year old letters, very frail, but still legible. [04:05.000 --> 04:19.000] So handwritten, most of them, a few type written and most of them my father's letters to my mother and her very brief and very matter of fact letters to him. [04:19.000 --> 04:31.000] So that was another trigger point, you know, it just shook me up and said, you have to write about the love story and here is ready material. [04:32.000 --> 04:41.000] Because there was so much in those letters, so much of the socio-economic history of the times. [04:41.000 --> 04:59.000] How young people interacted with each other, their friendships, their rivalries, their emotions, their ideas about themselves, about society, about India, what was happening in the political sphere. [05:00.000 --> 05:21.000] So there was this ready-made material for me as well. So I started writing and then the rest is, and then I resumed in 2020 when I had come back after 18 years being in Geneva and New York, nine years each. [05:21.000 --> 05:35.000] I came back and then COVID hit in 2020. I was always telling myself, okay, now I have no excuse of being busy. I have no excuse for postponing this project. [05:35.000 --> 06:00.000] So, and then the COVID came and that was, I think, the turning point in my being able to really collect all those memories to collect all the material that was spinning within me in terms of characters, plots, [06:00.000 --> 06:17.000] looking in all of that. And then within one year, I was able to finish my novel. At that time, I think the first cut was, I think, one of the reviewers talked about the author's cut. [06:17.000 --> 06:30.000] So the original draft was 270,000 words and some 52 chapters. So then that was that. [06:31.000 --> 06:45.000] I see a very strong, of course, given your work and given your career at the UN Women. I see this very strong feminist influence throughout the book, whether it starts from the 13th century poetess, [06:45.000 --> 07:02.000] that you take, then you take even the mother, for instance, she's a gentle woman who is subsuming herself to the need for the male child. But in our own way, she's also very supportive of her daughters and their lives and their needs and, you know, that they should grow wings. [07:02.000 --> 07:13.000] The protagonist themselves, Malthia and her sister, then you have even the Mad Queen who is such a strong character. So all your women characters are so fascinating. [07:13.000 --> 07:22.000] And I love the fact that each one comes with their own back story. So tell me a bit about how you decided to develop these characters. [07:23.000 --> 07:50.000] So some characters were in their very rudimentary, I would say, way familiar to me. They were familiar to me in terms of my mother's mother, Ai, who has been depicted there and never met her, because I was born to my mother when she was 45 and her mother died very young when she was in her 20s. [07:51.000 --> 08:09.000] So that part is true of the story. So Ai's death and all of that. So, and who she was, I had heard about her. But of course, the detailing, the characterization is, you know, something that I imagined. [08:09.000 --> 08:18.000] So there are many characters like that. Malthia is a total invention. Many of the other characters are surlised, a total invention. [08:18.000 --> 08:30.000] You know, one had heard stories about people, you know, that my mother used to tell us that in so-and-so's friends house, this is what happened. [08:31.000 --> 08:49.000] Or, you know, so those stories were bubbling around somewhere, and you catch threads of those and then you put together. And then of course, they also come to you as epiphany as you know, very well as a writer, that many of these things, you've never encountered in your life. [08:50.000 --> 09:06.000] But they just come to you as epiphany. What if I take her here? And what if I mold her in this way? You know, the excitement of that, the excitement of creating characters is very much there. [09:06.000 --> 09:18.000] And yes, you are right. Both Maasai, Sarla, these are amazing characters in their, both in their triumph and their tragedy. [09:18.000 --> 09:29.000] I may be mistaken, but I hope, I'm sure I'm not. This is the only novel in Indian writing in English that is so focused in this era set in Maharashtra. [09:30.000 --> 09:38.000] And your detailing is exquisite. Of course, it is the background and it is the lived experience of all those who have come before you. [09:38.000 --> 09:45.000] But I'm sure there's immense amount of research that has gone into it. I mean, even the scene has been seen as innocuous as them getting off at Victoria terminus. [09:45.000 --> 09:53.000] And the people they encounter and how they are traveling in that day and age and who's going by the Tonga and who's going by whatever. [09:53.000 --> 09:56.000] What was your research process like? [09:56.000 --> 10:11.000] You see, because I'm a student of history, I wanted to situate my stories against the backdrop, the grand backdrop of the freedom struggle. [10:11.000 --> 10:31.000] But also the coming of age of this generation of young people, Western educated, but still wanting to reclaim their heritage of the civilizational heritage and the cultural heritage and the literary heritage and contribute to that. [10:32.000 --> 10:54.000] So, I had my characters play a part in some, some not major things, but at least some interaction or some kind of connection with major and minor events of the freedom movement. [10:54.000 --> 10:56.000] And what do I mean by that? [10:56.000 --> 11:13.000] So, let us take in the first instance, how did I think about and what research did I do on the play, the patriotic play that they enacted in Elphinston College, Satyate Gulab. [11:14.000 --> 11:27.000] So, I had met Mama Varaykar in my life. I just want to share that with you. I eat a great admirer of his and his plays were both patriotic, but also social reform. [11:27.000 --> 11:53.000] He was very, you know, there's a very famous play of his called Bhumi Kanya Sita, for example, where he takes Sita's tide in this whole, you know, story of Ram and Sita and her having to be put through to Agniparek Shah and then going back to, you know, becoming the Bhumi Kanya that goes back to Mother Earth from where she came. [11:53.000 --> 12:02.000] So, I was a great admirer, so I said, let me look at his plays. So, I looked at some of his plays and I found Satyate Gulab. [12:02.000 --> 12:12.000] So, I read the whole play, I translated parts of the play which I have reproduced in the book. [12:13.000 --> 12:30.000] And that also was in a way a reflection of the socio-cultural, even economic because it talks about the hero is representing a landless labor and small farmers in course. [12:31.000 --> 12:41.000] So, you know, you get an idea of what were the issues for people at that time and so you use a play within the novel. [12:41.000 --> 12:59.000] So, you do research on that. And also how the elite at that time, the Indian elite within the British Raj, how did they feel conflicted as between, you know, working with [12:59.000 --> 13:14.000] the rulers, the British rulers and representing or supporting or in a way uplifting the poor and those were disadvantaged. [13:14.000 --> 13:23.000] So, you know, there were so many layers in that play that I really loved. So, I brought that in. So, those are. [13:23.000 --> 13:31.000] Then the characters also participate in, say, the Simon Commission protest. [13:31.000 --> 13:47.000] As it happens, my research indicated that use of merrily was both in Elphinstone College and the government college where Malthi and Guru went to at the same time. [13:47.000 --> 13:56.000] So, that was her independence. And so, I said, okay, so then let's, you know, get them engaged and then that's what happened. [13:56.000 --> 14:16.000] They participate. They, you know, the Simon, then I describe how the protest first they go to the docks and then there is the protest and then they are lucky charge and, you know, they feel very validated not just as bystanders and witnesses to history [14:16.000 --> 14:25.000] but being part of history. That is something that, again, I picked up and based on the research, he came upon that. [14:25.000 --> 14:36.000] So, and then there were, you know, when I arranged for meetings between my characters and some of the historical figures like Annie Basin, Dido Krishnamurti, [14:37.000 --> 14:52.000] of course, I had to do research about them. Were they in Bombay at that time? What were they doing? Yes, yes, that particular year because, you know, there is a very, very specific timeline that I am following. [14:52.000 --> 15:10.000] So, I looked up whether Dido Krishnamurti was actually in India at that time because he was, he had gone to, he had had this self-realization which I refer to, Ohio, I think he was, and then he came back. [15:10.000 --> 15:21.000] So, and that there was this tension between him and Annie Basin, which was palpable, you know, so I read all that and then put it into the story. [15:21.000 --> 15:39.000] Similarly, the fact that Annie Basin was instrumental in the opening of Mahila Maha Vidyala, she was very much part of the Banaras Hindu University project along with Madam Mohan Malaya. [15:40.000 --> 16:03.000] So, this, I did some research, both on Banaras Hindu University, and then again, serendipity, I discovered that she was, she was in 1929 when my heroine, Malaya, is ready to give up law and go and teach in Banaras, [16:04.000 --> 16:14.000] she is there inaugurating Mahila Maha Vidyala, you know. So, these coincidences of history, positive coincidences of history happen. [16:14.000 --> 16:26.000] And so, I said, wow, and then as I describe, I describe an epiphany that Malaya has that she must, that Annie is calling her and that she must go to Banaras. [16:27.000 --> 16:47.000] So, you know, those kind of links between what story you are trying to tell, where you are taking your characters and the historical figures, events and literature of the time, personalities of the time, the meeting between her and Mahatma Gandhi. [16:48.000 --> 17:01.000] I made sure that in that year, Mahatma Gandhi was in Lebanon Road, staying at Janhir Patis Ghestaus, and he was going to be addressing the Santa Cruz gathering. [17:01.000 --> 17:08.000] So, you know, some of these things, so that it is authentic and not completely made up. [17:08.000 --> 17:19.000] You spoke about the book being two 70,000 words when you started the first draft, and you obviously have cut it down quite a bit. [17:19.000 --> 17:31.000] So, what was the process like? Because, you know, killing your darlings is a difficult thing for any writer, and to kill such a big chunk of your work must have been quite a process. [17:31.000 --> 17:42.000] So, that is what actually took another one and a half years, and I did it all by myself, because I said, I am not going to allow any editor. [17:42.000 --> 18:00.000] And I must say, David also left it to me to decide how I want to cut it, what, you know, David Dawidar, whom I would very much like to thank for giving me this opportunity and discovering me and the worth of the novel. [18:00.000 --> 18:17.000] He left it very much to me what I wanted to cut. Of course, some places he pointed out, maybe this could be done way with, but overall, I think I tried to then exercise, as you said, with a heavy heart. [18:18.000 --> 18:32.000] The, the excision process was painful, but I also realized, you see, my, if I just divert a little into my style, a lot of it was dialogue. [18:32.000 --> 18:37.000] This is one of those novels where there is a lot of dialogue, almost like a play. [18:38.000 --> 19:03.000] So, the easiest way was to reduce words was to cut the dialogues and convert a lot of them into description of, you know, show and tell, but, I mean, show, show and, and also, it was about some episodes cutting down those episodes. [19:03.000 --> 19:11.000] Some characters I excised as well, but I think in retrospect, we could do without that. [19:11.000 --> 19:32.000] And if and when, and I hope it is not a question of if, when we do have a web series, hopefully we'll be able to use some of that material back, which is quite rich, I would say, for dramatization of the book. [19:34.000 --> 19:55.000] So, yes, it was difficult to kill your darlings, but I was told that this is part of being a novelist that you have to learn to both create your characters be creative, but also destroyer, Shiva, and Vishnu and Brahma. [19:56.000 --> 19:58.000] That's a wonderful, wonderful analogy. [19:58.000 --> 20:05.000] So, I do hope you retain that author's cut with you for the dramatization and when it does happen. [20:05.000 --> 20:13.000] And what is your process, right? Did you have like fixed hours you sat at the desk every day and wrote, because this was a lockdown when you did the bulk of your writing. [20:13.000 --> 20:15.000] So, did that help in any way? [20:16.000 --> 20:29.000] It did, it did, because after my exercise regime, which is very fixed and I'm obsessive about, I would spend eight to ten hours every day writing. [20:29.000 --> 20:41.000] I had a nice leather couch in the corner of my gym room and I would sit there and work on that text. [20:42.000 --> 20:55.000] Sometimes I would change local depending on the weather, I would sit outside, but yes, it was like a dharma that I had to do a certain number of hours. [20:55.000 --> 21:02.000] Sometimes I would say, I'm not getting anywhere with this. [21:03.000 --> 21:14.000] So, then I would leave for about half an hour and then come back to it and then write nevertheless and then, you know, recogitate about it and then come back. [21:14.000 --> 21:28.000] So, I think that happens to all writers and then of course, sometimes I would get up at night, suddenly some idea would come about some character or some twist in the plot. [21:29.000 --> 21:36.000] You know, how do I create some kind of mystery, you know, taking a cue from your genre. [21:36.000 --> 21:45.000] So, you know, suddenly some idea would come at two o'clock at night and then I would get up and then my husband would look for me. [21:45.000 --> 21:56.000] Are you okay sitting in the gym room, you know, trying to capture whether it was a dream or whether it's an idea. [21:56.000 --> 22:03.000] I didn't, I could not say. So, I was transcribing that idea. [22:03.000 --> 22:05.000] I love describing that. Yes. [22:05.000 --> 22:15.000] I call these vampire ideas, you know, they come to you in the middle of the night, but sometimes they don't work at all, but they seem so wonderful in the night that you're compelled to put it down. [22:16.000 --> 22:33.000] And I'm faithful to the vampires, I must say. I always listen to them. I put them down and whether I eventually kept it or not is another matter, but I did include them, elaborate upon them. [22:33.000 --> 22:42.000] And then, you know, if I had second thoughts too bad, then I, you know, excised them. [22:43.000 --> 22:44.000] What are you working on now? [22:44.000 --> 22:51.000] I'm working on basically taking this book forward and taking it to the people and to the readers. [22:51.000 --> 23:05.000] You know, I realized that in the social media age, it is as important to communicate about the book as it is to write the book in the first place. [23:06.000 --> 23:19.000] So, that's what I'm doing these days and looking forward to a series. I've already done a number of interviews, TV, magazine, and look forward to many more. [23:19.000 --> 23:29.000] And also part of my book is going to be launched at the Jaipur Literature Festival on 4th February at 1 p.m. [23:29.000 --> 23:36.000] So, I hope all your viewers who will be attending the JLF will come for that event. [23:36.000 --> 23:44.000] And then, I'm also participating in other literature festivals in Thiruvananthapuram, the Bhubaneswar. [23:44.000 --> 23:52.000] So, all the other festivals as well after that. But my first launch is at JLF. [23:52.000 --> 24:03.000] And then, you know, there will be city launches that I will be doing Delhi, Bombay, Pune, all those cities, Bangalore. [24:03.000 --> 24:16.000] But, you know, one thing you said, if I may just also come back to, you said that it is very uniquely also reflecting the cultural, [24:16.000 --> 24:23.000] and literary, Renaissance, and theatre, and the songs of the times. But it is a very pan-India novel. [24:23.000 --> 24:33.000] It begins in Ratnagiri. It covers a lot of Madhya Pradesh in what I call Vashali and Guna. [24:33.000 --> 24:42.000] So, it's Madhya Pradesh, Bombay, then it goes to Benares. There are some six, seven chapters. [24:42.000 --> 24:48.000] I really like the chapters on Benares, love writing them and reading them. [24:48.000 --> 24:58.000] And then, similar chapters also, I really like at the cusp of independence and then Delhi. [24:58.000 --> 25:03.000] So, it's a very pan-India, you know, locale and setting. [25:04.000 --> 25:11.000] And in that sense, a pan-India novel with a Maharashtra flavor or heart, if you will. [25:11.000 --> 25:19.000] Absolutely. And this is the book, Swallowing the Sun. It's a lovely book. I exhort everyone to please read it. [25:19.000 --> 25:26.000] And thank you so much Lakshmi Ji for your time. It has been wonderful talking to you. It has been wonderful reading this book. [25:26.000 --> 25:32.000] Look forward to reading your next now soon. Don't take so long on it. [25:32.000 --> 25:33.000] Thank you. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe2.sonicengage.com/releases/20240207164437' directory

Swallowing the Sun: A Conversation with Lakshmi Puri

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