S2 E9. Mithun Sacheti on building CaratLane and solving for trust

[00:00:00] When the website went live, you're a government, right?

[00:00:03] You switch that button on and you're there.

[00:00:05] And you go three months without a transaction.

[00:00:08] That is a very painful phase as well also at that point.

[00:00:12] And then we got this first transaction in the nightmare of trying to fulfill the transaction.

[00:00:16] HDFC says no, why should anybody want to buy from it?

[00:00:20] Japan for such a high value?

[00:00:22] I said no, he can buy in the local shop over here itself.

[00:00:26] So we will not open the payment gateway for this.

[00:00:44] This here's theme for the podcast is compounding and few other industries value compounding like the jewelry business.

[00:00:50] Think about some of the biggest global brands we created centuries ago.

[00:00:54] Tiffany is 1837, Cartier, 1847, Chophard, Swarovski, 1895.

[00:01:01] In India, we've always been patrons of jewelry.

[00:01:04] Jewelry plays many roles. It's an emotion, it's an investment,

[00:01:08] something you inherit, something that you flaunt.

[00:01:10] Our guest today is at the intersection of this compounding journey and this multi-emotion

[00:01:14] evoking product.

[00:01:15] Methon such a thing has been in the golden eye of the media storm for the past few months.

[00:01:20] And for very good reasons why won't he be built out,

[00:01:23] carried lane and that build out is one for the ages all the way from taking a small 74

[00:01:29] lakh loan to start the company to becoming one of the largest omnichannel jewelers in the country.

[00:01:34] 200 plus stores now tracking 3000 crores in top line and valued last from what everyone's

[00:01:42] right in the press at 17,000 crores. Methon welcome to the broom partcast.

[00:01:47] Thank you, Cartier. Thank you for having me over here.

[00:01:49] So I'm breaking up the podcast into three parts with one. We'll talk of the origins of

[00:01:55] character in the early days. Basically the story tell from the entrepreneur.

[00:01:59] Second is more around in the occasion how did he scale the business and how did the

[00:02:04] tata's get involved because that's kind of unique in this journey. And last is focusing on

[00:02:11] the theme which is compounding and compounding not just in terms of value and wealth and numbers

[00:02:17] but also organisations and culture and how does that, what is that legacy that you're leaving

[00:02:23] behind for the business even even if you move out of the business.

[00:02:27] So in the intro we briefly spoke about how gems jewelry are generational businesses.

[00:02:33] And I mean it's could be obvious for a lot of people but I would love for your take on what

[00:02:40] you think makes these kind of business a generational and in fact there's a phrase that is

[00:02:45] at a feature or is it a bug? So what do you think that is in your view?

[00:02:49] You know the nature of jewelry comes from two parts. One is the raw material itself which

[00:02:55] is a commodity. The underlying is a commodity to this whole thing. The commodity in small

[00:03:01] values was extremely malleable and when safe, etc., the best way to flaunt anything really

[00:03:07] was to wear it and that's how it really began on that. If one goes back to the other thing

[00:03:14] with the commodity was that is tradable anywhere in everywhere. And so the recognition of this

[00:03:20] or flaunt value of this is very high. The ability to trade this was extremely high. So

[00:03:25] there was nothing that was really very different from anything else that you want to flaunt in

[00:03:31] life now as well. So something ages back and if you reach a chance, it comes across beautifully

[00:03:39] in that. Where a chance of success that 25% of your wealth, whatever you define as wealth,

[00:03:45] must be in the form of gold because that's your bet against your own kingdom. And he actually

[00:03:53] possibly established that so deep in Indian psyche and particularly South Indian psyche.

[00:04:00] Because they obviously have longest legacy while they covered big parts of India,

[00:04:06] that legacy is I mean stayed a lot in South India and I guess partly because we had only seven

[00:04:12] wars in South India and we had 35 in North. So if you were to think about the role it played in India

[00:04:20] that every time there was strife or anything else, the only thing that people could walk or move

[00:04:25] with was their gold. So not only and if you walk in somewhere else, if you take that gold out

[00:04:30] and imagine a person who's ravaged and walks without that and one who walks with this, this

[00:04:37] sort of automatically solves for it. And I think as time has gone by and listening to my grandfather

[00:04:43] and Grand uncle's and different people. The role of the commodity has now just shifted

[00:04:50] and the role of the adornment has increased. And so that's the change really that has happened.

[00:04:56] But in India I think that deep rooted behavior of this has come because of that.

[00:05:03] It's finally global average of jewelry to GDP as 0.3 and Indian average is 2.1.

[00:05:09] And it just tells you that we follow this. We just don't know why and in that quest for

[00:05:16] figuring this out I realized that this is why it happened. It was Chanakya who really made it

[00:05:20] really, really grow across. So I think you've kind of I guess delved into it just to understand

[00:05:27] personally why this journey is so important to you I guess. But when you left your family business

[00:05:33] after spending 80 years there to launch character lane because the story posts that because you

[00:05:38] been in startup world and the story has been told 14, 15 years in the character in journey.

[00:05:45] What would be great for the audience to hear especially young entrepreneurs on the business

[00:05:49] in waiting is what gave you the conviction at that point to launch character lane and not do this as

[00:05:55] potentially a line extension of the Jaypo James brand. And also maybe touch upon the beginnings

[00:06:01] of the compounding theme. How important was it for you to have spend those 80 years and how does

[00:06:07] that help in compounding this journey? And so this is another thing that we found when we spoke

[00:06:12] in it in at 0, that for example. He says the business is 13 years old, I think but we've been

[00:06:17] doing this for 24 years, 25 years, 29 or something like some crazy number and he said like

[00:06:23] Nicky has been trading and giving me profits to fund the business and we were doing this for our

[00:06:29] living and then zero that was born out of our need for that. So you know, analogies from

[00:06:34] your side from the Jaypo James journey and then how character lane began? Oh I think there could

[00:06:40] be no character lane if there was no Jaypo James so or the time that I spent over there.

[00:06:44] And Nicky's perfectly right in what he says because what happens in your life before you start an

[00:06:50] entrepreneurial journey is what shapes your thinking at that point. Correct. And for me my mom and dad

[00:06:56] were so involved in the business and two very different manners that would hammer home all the time

[00:07:02] the whole concept of cash flow and savings. He was a rich man but nobody possibly realized that

[00:07:09] because he was a very wealthy man and you know he never showed his riches and so he managed to keep

[00:07:14] his wealth at all times. Mom was the extremely hardworking I mean she was the dominant force behind

[00:07:22] the business because of the visibility we got of design etc at home there were people who would

[00:07:27] work on design with her would be working from home many times as well on weekends etc.

[00:07:32] We would really get to see what this business was all about so unknowingly all of this was

[00:07:37] hearing transferred. When I finished of last couple of years of college I was really stressed out

[00:07:43] because I felt that there is no way you can compete with the effort my mom puts puts in at work.

[00:07:48] It's impossible. Women when they decide to take something on it's the singular focus on solving

[00:07:54] something and I think it's just it's I honestly feel men can't have that it's just not weird we're far

[00:08:01] more distracted and they are far more focused on doing things as well also. I guess they

[00:08:07] raised children more than men raised children right so I think God's just given them that trait.

[00:08:11] Yeah I think she was just so good at it they would make us nervous at all times saying how

[00:08:15] we're going to be able to deliver or take this forward and do what she's done all these years as well.

[00:08:20] Whatever I mean that nervousness was there went to California's,

[00:08:25] Geology, Geology Manufacturing before that couple of years worked in the jewelry space for

[00:08:29] somebody else trying to learn the trait as well came back joined the family business very soon

[00:08:35] realized there's no space for me because the 2000s were footstooled three people already there

[00:08:40] disguised unemployed so I quickly ran and figured out where else could I build this out of and we

[00:08:45] had a property in Chennai and Chennai was a great market anyways also it comes a jewelry.

[00:08:50] So I thought I'll just move there there's you know you don't think too much at 21.

[00:08:55] Yeah there's a golf course and there is you know there's enough surfing over there and I'll

[00:09:00] figure out life out after that. Great. And so it happened that way when you walk into a new place

[00:09:07] the fact that you don't know anybody and you have to build a business from scratch.

[00:09:12] And you know for someone like me who is building something and to be able to even transact with a guy

[00:09:17] like let's say Amarnaath we know in common or his family Shweta was a big achievement in itself

[00:09:24] also to reach that space. Yeah it took me seven years of attending to every single person

[00:09:31] and manufacturing right there so I was small manufacturing created what I wanted to sell

[00:09:35] customize it to that market and took my skill sets of America because the one thing that

[00:09:40] America taught me in education was that I could speak the vocabulary that everybody else around

[00:09:45] me could not speak so that differentiated what we were doing as well also. They exposure it gave me

[00:09:50] to all the Cartier, the Tiffany and Mancliffe etc and what that meant for India is something I could

[00:09:55] understand. So I think those 80 years taught me massive I mean a great understanding of design

[00:10:02] as well as manufacturing. The absence of that we would have been a take business.

[00:10:08] Right it would have been like a tech entrepreneur trying to build a jewel repus. Correct and you know

[00:10:12] that's the difference really between us and many other players in our space as well also on that

[00:10:17] part. Well ultimately we're an enable of a tech, like we're an enable of a market. Absolutely but

[00:10:24] that's not the main product. A brand has an ethos and I realized that we were really into

[00:10:31] high end jewelry and we were catering to an audience where that brand would not work if we had

[00:10:39] too many people walking in and trying to buy the same thing or trying to buy different things across

[00:10:45] because in a design led brand you need to know which market you're really going after. And it was

[00:10:49] very clear that that just was not what jeopardy M's could do at all. The question did come up

[00:10:54] quite a few times from the family why not do it right here itself. Is a successful business

[00:11:00] there's no reason to leave this and start something new. But it was successful from the point of

[00:11:06] where the world was at that point. It would not be successful from the where the world at least I

[00:11:11] saw it be 10 years ahead as well also. You know all the guys, Xeca Pralad and everybody were

[00:11:16] really their prime at that point talking about bottom of the pyramid and all kinds of things

[00:11:21] and what did it mean for the jewelry business? Yeah and if it did mean something for prosperity

[00:11:25] and jewelry business and time has told us that you can't isolate not a sunset industry. Never

[00:11:30] will be in India. It was very important to build a merchandise line for the next generation of

[00:11:36] customers. Jepel James like all other jewelry stores was designed for the mother. It was not designed

[00:11:42] for the daughter. The mothers would bring the daughter in and we were never a destination where

[00:11:47] the daughter brought the mother. Yeah and so we really had to think of ourselves all over again

[00:11:53] in a new avatar and try and create that. In a world where she would build herself or where in

[00:11:58] a world where she was hanging out because the holding is not going to look very different

[00:12:03] whichever brand you put frankly you take all the brands in India. You replace their brand name and put

[00:12:08] another brand and they all look the same as Varan Jury. We have nobody's created any differentiation.

[00:12:12] It's quite true. Yeah one actress is an ambassador this year and this brand

[00:12:16] in two years later she's an ambassador in another brand. Yeah. It doesn't change much as well. So that

[00:12:22] distinction, a new audience, a new product for her in a new space which is the internet.

[00:12:29] It would be a lot easier to do it in a brand new slate as opposed to building it in the existing

[00:12:34] family business. Very, very sound thinking now coming to ups and downs I know you've spoken

[00:12:40] a lot about how sort of you were surprised despite pitching in nobody giving you capital

[00:12:47] you know getting a coal mail from Lee. I mean he was good at doing that back then I guess.

[00:12:51] You know what? And but going back to maybe more fundamental challenges. Was it only

[00:12:57] capital where the other challenges in the business? Well I'll tell you why capital as well also

[00:13:04] we came in early. We were possibly a couple of years early on this journey.

[00:13:09] Happens to the best of us. Yeah, right. So when you're a couple of years early your sting power needs

[00:13:15] sting power only increases with capital. So at that point that became the need that we identified.

[00:13:19] We need to solve for as well also. The 74 lakhs invested by the family was not going to take

[00:13:25] you that far in life in 26 lakhs by gopal was not going to take us that far ahead in life.

[00:13:29] We were also so capital became one constraint and if we didn't get that at the right time frankly

[00:13:34] survival would have been difficult. When we were not able to sell you know in the beginning

[00:13:40] and nobody was buying people are browsing but not buying and conversion rates were like 0.01.

[00:13:46] It makes no business sense to actually be in business so that part. Every voice

[00:13:52] that you would hear and people who are very sage and you know they're saying it for the good of us.

[00:13:57] They're not saying it from any other thing. Would tell you this is not a category that's not an online

[00:14:02] category as well. Those things were great advice because Omni would not have happened had it not been

[00:14:07] that advice either also. But the pressure that it puts on you that I would literally go to a

[00:14:13] tie event and I would be embarrassed to say what I'm doing. I remember Omni Raj was the head and I

[00:14:19] was going to a tie event and I could not even introduce myself saying what I'm doing and I left like

[00:14:25] 20 minutes into the event because I felt this is to solve very big established people and you know

[00:14:30] so self doubt creeps in in a very large manner at the start of a business and I think it's very

[00:14:35] normal you have to get over it and you have to get back to what you're talking about.

[00:14:38] Longering that is the first step. Yeah so that was one when the website went live

[00:14:44] you're a government right you switch that button on in your there and you go three months without

[00:14:49] a transaction that is a very painful phase as well also at that point and then we got this first

[00:14:56] transaction and the nightmare of trying to fulfill the transaction. HDRC says no why should anybody want

[00:15:01] to buy from it Japan for such a high value. I said no he can buy in local shop over here it's

[00:15:08] helpful so we will not open the payment gateway for this this could be a potential fraud as well.

[00:15:13] So you get that transaction through we had to give a higher amount of money as deposit to them

[00:15:18] saying there's a fraud will take care of it. Do you speak to a customer you can figure out

[00:15:21] you know whether you want to go through and they had I think a 10,000 rupees or a 50,000

[00:15:26] rupees lock and it's not about that no transaction allowed on this. Blue Dart for Korea why would

[00:15:32] anybody want to buy jewelry online? To try and convince all those guys and you know when you

[00:15:37] it doesn't happen in one day and so a few weeks later I keep thinking to yourself am I like taking

[00:15:42] something on which is just in some amount of money. Yeah which you know infrastructure is just

[00:15:49] not there and we have to create we had to create payment gateways for high value we had to create

[00:15:54] Korea services for jewelry as well. I felt like that formula one car which is driving in the rain

[00:16:00] and the guy at the back was going to come he's going to have a great time you know. So that was another one.

[00:16:07] You know one of the hardest moments is when the government comes on your door and they really

[00:16:14] make it life difficult because and there was FDI regulation change that in e-commerce FDI

[00:16:24] and we had all the raise money. Yeah, to re-constitute the business like every other

[00:16:28] company. Exactly. You know that when you do that, you're going to struggle with this whole

[00:16:35] thing as well. Also on that luckily we were a single brand manufacturing business so at least

[00:16:40] we were not that far off but the guy did come knocking on the door and you had months and months of

[00:16:45] this. Yeah, interpretations, opinions, risks, yeah. Your business is not established and you're

[00:16:52] going through this at the same time as well. It adds another layer of crazy stress on this one thing.

[00:16:58] You know that it's just painful to go through something like that. The 2016

[00:17:05] something I haven't told anybody yet, Titan and as agreed on the deal in January. Okay. And

[00:17:12] at the last moment they boarded into approval and we had announced a transaction to a team at

[00:17:19] 325 because 330 was the stock exchange announcement going to go out as well. Because they have to

[00:17:24] publicly accept everything. And 325 we are supposed to announce press in our office. Oh wow.

[00:17:29] Yeah, you're set it up. We're set it up because this was a big deal for us as well. And I announced that

[00:17:35] and to the team and we're celebrating in the 7 year anniversary and everything else like that and

[00:17:40] great all of that stuff. You're a call at 328 saying that sorry it's not going through

[00:17:46] you know a certain member in the board is not agreed to it on that part. And it was like a death blow

[00:17:54] at that point because you'd work 6 months towards it and my relationship with Titans are very

[00:17:57] deep long one. Yeah, really built it. Yeah, very carefully. And I just did not know what hit me

[00:18:05] because I've just announced this to my four people who work at Carret Lane. Yeah. And luckily

[00:18:12] it happened in 3 minutes. This whole thing and only 1 person had tweeted about it and we

[00:18:17] nobody follows him. So we could pull that back, you know, and do that. But it was just like as if

[00:18:25] you know my stomach was in my mouth and I don't know what and you know because you'd build your

[00:18:30] dreams of the last 6 months of where you're going to take a business. Everything else around it.

[00:18:34] And even though the business at that point was 100 and maybe 40 crores in revenue or something like

[00:18:39] that it was like a death blow. That was the worst day on that whole space as well also.

[00:18:45] Well, like the real big brother brought it up how did this get reversed 14 year one man was

[00:18:50] here for Titan then, Subbu who also felt the same thing because he worked on it on the other side.

[00:18:57] The champion on that side always feels correct. He felt the same thing. He felt it so much

[00:19:02] that he felt like I don't even know whether what to continue this thing and you remember we've met

[00:19:05] Cyrus, Mr. before that we've signed off with him. We've signed off with everybody.

[00:19:09] Leave Excel, fly to India to meet Cyrus and closes the deal and everything and turns out a person who

[00:19:15] you know one of the members that's a beauty of Titan also that they're so consensus driven that

[00:19:20] you know they wanted everybody aligned as well also. And a month later Subbu called me and said that

[00:19:26] look, let's pick up, let's figure out why what happened and I still don't see why we should not do

[00:19:32] this as well also. And he was kind enough to shave with me who had the objection on that part.

[00:19:39] I won't take his name of course and Baskar Bart is the MD of the type.

[00:19:45] Baskar is the greatest matchmaker I call him in life as well. So because he can really think all

[00:19:51] these things through how to solve for it, do all of that and he was the MD then of Titan now.

[00:19:55] Of course he's the board member of Tala Suns even this transaction was because of him.

[00:20:01] So he went and spoke to gentleman saying tell me the reason management feels this is the way to do it.

[00:20:07] Tata's feel this is the way to do it. There must be some reason that you have.

[00:20:10] Certainly it's not the business because that decision is ours and if you take that decision away from us

[00:20:14] we don't know. If you ever concern on value or anything else like that then tell us about

[00:20:20] whatever he had his concerns and said that. Since I knew the name of this person and I discovered

[00:20:24] one day that he was speaking in Chennai. But all he was a chief guest at a function in Chennai

[00:20:29] I was a nice in called Ritz. I think something in the right way.

[00:20:33] And I was reticented speaking in those days going anywhere it blew then.

[00:20:37] I said I want to speak over here and she makes me the keynote speaker at that and I go there

[00:20:42] and I possibly had my entire heart and emotion out in that one conversation

[00:20:47] and I could feel it that it went well because I had the audience literally give me a standing

[00:20:51] ovation and this man then walked up to me and said oh what a beautiful business you built

[00:20:56] you might know me I mean you might know I'm the chairman of Titan etc. I said oh great so

[00:21:02] I'd love to have an audience with you and that audience basically clinched that whole

[00:21:06] things and why is great business and sort of do that. Making these areas believe is like

[00:21:11] so different I think isn't it a thrill in the entrepreneurial journey? It is and

[00:21:16] actually when they believe in after that is really the journey you don't think about it as

[00:21:20] that point. You don't it don't yeah and you shouldn't either also that thrill when they actually

[00:21:24] can work it is a nice chuckle in the mind. So quick shift like you're moving away from

[00:21:30] the family business to wanting to build a tech lead business originally that's what you thought.

[00:21:36] How did you meet Shreinvasa Gopal and how are you different from each other? What makes

[00:21:41] that co-founder chemistry click and it held up for very there yeah yeah yeah so Shreinvasa

[00:21:48] Gopal and for many people might not know what is one of the key members instrumental in taking

[00:21:55] Siffie to the Nashtak at that point. Okay we knew the story from the 90s right?

[00:22:00] Yeah obviously you know it's more Ram Raj and you know so he but my all of them were in the

[00:22:07] court team. Okay obviously I had a lot of respect for him for what he'd done. He was a client of

[00:22:13] minor jeopardy. The nature of jeopardy I'm so said you'd meet fabulous people and

[00:22:19] the life of a salesman in a business like that is that you get to know every single person.

[00:22:24] The families, their stories yeah so I spent a lot of time talking to him and I'd seen him go

[00:22:28] through his fundraise with he moved on and then build a company called Lister Technologies. Okay

[00:22:33] Little did I know I thought all tech is same you know it's like all construction companies same

[00:22:38] it's like how Tata's believed that TCS can build websites you know so same exact way it goes

[00:22:44] as well or other web businesses. I think I kept pushing him you know really I have this idea

[00:22:51] can you listen to me about it every time it comes by jewelry will like oh my god I'll send it

[00:22:56] this guy again you know say it was a it was an it was an a believe up. One day at a friend of his

[00:23:02] who came from America and I convinced him to buy a $60,000 diamond back then without seeing a diamond

[00:23:09] basis of a certificate. When that happened that without seeing a diamond you can buy a diamond.

[00:23:15] Gopal was in a diamond buy it was a gold buy so you know he didn't have a relation to that product.

[00:23:20] He realized that oh this is possible somebody just did a $60,000 transaction with this. That was the

[00:23:27] aha moment for him and he said okay let's try this out and I needed him because

[00:23:34] to the extent I'm an extremely in those there are an extremely poor computer user and my 14

[00:23:38] year journey I've never used a computer also. I'm that bad you know for me everything's the phone.

[00:23:46] So he was convinced that this is possible and but he also has cleared that he runs a business

[00:23:54] he's busy with that he's raised money and he had then he'd bought back I say when just by

[00:23:59] then I think and so but he was still he's not operating he's not getting involved with it.

[00:24:04] So what I got was that half an hour every Tuesday you come for coffee with me and that's

[00:24:10] my relationship with Gopal. 20 years older is the chairman of the company all the way through

[00:24:16] we were you know 1434th sort of partnership in that business but what fabulous advice ability to

[00:24:26] my learning to what kind of talent how do you attract talent how does one sort of build on that

[00:24:33] I learned a lot of what he knew on that in his early. He got mentorship, organization leadership

[00:24:39] and of course just a sounding board. Travels human being you know so I really enjoyed that piece with

[00:24:44] them and I think I think it's a very peculiar relationship jewelry customer to the jewelry

[00:24:50] but I haven't heard you want here that kind of a co-founder relationship but what we have seen

[00:24:56] through years of like both formal research I've seen some from my alma mater at Boaton

[00:25:02] and some by just looking at our datasets. It's that deep element of trust and respect for each

[00:25:09] others important if you want a long standing relationship. Gofounders is not easy to put a

[00:25:14] like a title to it but it doesn't most of them don't last very long for that reason right?

[00:25:19] So it's always someone from your past. In a way, Kathig he was a angel investor and a mentor at

[00:25:25] the same time but the impact he had on me it would be wrong to not call him a go founder. God that's

[00:25:32] how I see it. Another important influence at least our team dug up in research and you can correct

[00:25:37] me if I'm wrong seems to be the late Mr. Junjan Valla and you mentioned and I think in an interview

[00:25:43] that for the first time you met him you couldn't hold his attention for more than a minute or a half

[00:25:48] of a minute what was that about like he didn't believe in the business and then how again

[00:25:52] same thing how do you convert him to then becoming a mentor to you? You know maybe a glimpse of

[00:25:57] you know someone the startup world doesn't see much you seem to have so would love to hear

[00:26:03] the audience have that. RJ was you know personality. You have that I encountered him

[00:26:09] if you have absolutely massively opinionated about what he believed in it and there was an unbelievable

[00:26:15] line he would tell me and then he repeated that one day to me as well I'll come to the line later.

[00:26:21] So he was sitting and I go to his office and before I could say anything and I think

[00:26:26] we had some some people in Chennai who related to him friends of mine as well as

[00:26:32] Baskar who was trying to stitch this deal together and he obviously were very close to

[00:26:37] Rakesh and so he's been a big believer in Titan. I think he's been a bigger believer in Titan and

[00:26:42] Tata's so yeah because when they were not willing to put more money and he put more money in as

[00:26:49] at a point and he really stuck by them for further time that he did as well. So and so

[00:26:56] Baskar wasn't an opinion as well. And so that meeting was set up and I was went over there and

[00:27:01] he said this is all nonsense you guys don't know take VC money and then you're all thinking

[00:27:07] making losses and all of these things and what does it need to make loss in selling jewelry on

[00:27:11] that part right and doing that part? So the I said you're right it's a mistake I made for years

[00:27:17] and when I said that I think was a little bit of a this thing as well. What's your gross value?

[00:27:22] He says 17% he said you know what is Titan's gross margin? I said yeah about 22%. You

[00:27:27] think you can ever cross 17 to 22% when you can do that that's when you'll make a business that's 30%

[00:27:33] more gross margin than you make as well. So whatever the gap was at that point. Yeah sure that

[00:27:38] I said no but I want to tell you harm trying to build it and why what method is this? As I was trying to

[00:27:42] build it it was after market hours because not meet in market hours as well. He dosed off in that

[00:27:47] conversation and I just couldn't hold his attention because he dosed off as well also. So

[00:27:58] when 30 you know like a minute or two later he sort of woke up in everything and asked him

[00:28:03] can I take a cigarette? So he said yeah give me a cigarette and I've dread somewhere also that you

[00:28:09] smoke with someone and you drink with someone and you become sort of you know something like that

[00:28:15] I said take the cigarette he takes it he also takes one he lights it when he lights it he can't sleep.

[00:28:23] He's awake and then I narrate what I'm trying to build how I think it's for the mother

[00:28:27] and this is for the daughter and this is the natural extension we're a feeder brand into what

[00:28:30] they want to build all of that stuff etc and he heard me through the whole thing and he's to see

[00:28:37] the thought is right but this loss making business doesn't make sense. Then in the end he said you

[00:28:42] haven't you cigarette? I said no I don't smoke. See till that story a few times you know so he says

[00:28:48] they're gonna come you know when I say that it's a great story and then you know as the deal happened

[00:28:56] from he saw the changes and his words and gross margin stayed with me all throughout

[00:29:03] that's 17% when I left care at late now or leave care at late now where are 34%?

[00:29:09] Oh so we are you know dramatically different and since you brought that up how like maybe one to

[00:29:16] quick pointers how does it climb that much when Spanish can't hold it at most? You must choose

[00:29:21] the right segments to be interesting. Ultimately there's a poor definition of jewelry business of

[00:29:27] what is the customer's life cycle? We are way clear that we are in this life cycle of the

[00:29:33] customer from his first anniversary to the 15th anniversary and every occasion that happens in

[00:29:39] that is a share of wallet for us so we go after that share of wallet in that business. So let me give

[00:29:45] you an example for kid in the but it's heard of the fourth year most people have a child of fifth year

[00:29:52] at birth Nazarya becomes a very important thing the black person speaks as well.

[00:29:57] Same time you're gifting to other people because your birds are fed the flock together you're

[00:30:00] going to give that same thing to other people who are because once children are born people start

[00:30:04] to hang out with those who still are born and that bachelor hood sort of and that couple hoods

[00:30:10] sort of thing goes away a little bit but that's heard but they pepapic becomes extremely relevant in

[00:30:17] a family and so we went to Cartoon Network, Tidal with Pepapic and sort of made that a brand

[00:30:23] today we do I think 80 crores of Pepapic in a year and at the seventh birthday we have Dorim on

[00:30:31] and Powerpuff girls but I've realized 0 to 5 is people release pens for kids that 7 to 10 again

[00:30:36] is like a lava restaurant. At the tenth birthday is where we realize you get into read and we

[00:30:42] had to become relevant for the child as well so we got into Harry Potter because almost the way

[00:30:48] people would say about lot of the rings that you know, um, a big chunk of the English-speaking

[00:30:53] population has read about the largest chunk of English-speaking population. I think Harry Potter's

[00:30:57] the next thing where it's like that so we got into that and that became the big thing for us.

[00:31:02] So that's a kid's life cycle management. Same thing goes for universities and birthdays of everybody.

[00:31:07] So he starts solving saying when is the milestone that you're going to buy something big

[00:31:11] which is the small ones how do you make bite size available? So if I now know that Cartoon

[00:31:16] where you are in this life journey, I have to take you from here to the next level as well.

[00:31:20] When I become that relevant to you you don't mind if I make more market. So your approach life

[00:31:26] very differently on that and you do your own business, you're not worried about what others are

[00:31:29] doing but if it all of other jewelry, they say okay this category what is market share,

[00:31:34] what can I take away? That category doesn't lend into your thesis of how to make the same

[00:31:39] customer come again and again then you're just building new cack for new customers at all times.

[00:31:44] It makes no sense whatsoever. I remember Irina once telling me that you know she's also amazing

[00:31:50] because amazing she is. Yeah so I was building a TV campaign and I sent it across to her and

[00:31:56] I said what do you think about this? I was at an then I met her the elevation conference.

[00:32:01] She said it's an also target number of customers at that year I think I was looking at two

[00:32:05] like customers. She said do you really want to go after 140 crore or 100 crore Indians to get

[00:32:12] two like customers on that? Do you think that's extremely inefficient on that? I made so much sense

[00:32:19] and you realize at that point that this you know throwing in the dark, I mean,

[00:32:24] darts in the dark or needle in a haystack all of these kind of methods will never build a great business.

[00:32:30] It's around 2015 that she told me that 1415. Yeah. I took that so strongly that statement

[00:32:37] she made to me that even at 2005 or 3000 crores, which will be this year we still don't have a TV

[00:32:43] campaign. We just never needed that and we set ourselves a goals and only after a million customers

[00:32:50] transacting for year happens on that year then we'll even consider this part because just to

[00:32:56] accelerate and we'll have enough money that we can now aim for you know the 10x growth after that.

[00:33:01] Yeah, so I think we often get these things in conversation and we just have to figure out what it means

[00:33:09] for us. It's like I mean in the same vein because we start talking a lot about the business

[00:33:15] the use of landscape was at first guest on this season and you know he also

[00:33:21] started the same way people will buy you know I wear online and what he realized is people

[00:33:27] in like others coming to their home to just do an eye check and they needed it the ways how do you

[00:33:32] know you have to otherwise you have to pull them to a store I could just no no my power right

[00:33:36] to be able to order online slightly different problem than let's say buying jewelry which is

[00:33:42] about trust and quality and stuff. So I know you he's gone doubled down and tripled down on on

[00:33:48] the store model somewhere along the line that happened in your cases well right and now you have

[00:33:53] like 200 stores and the thought of partnership obviously helps as well but again what are the

[00:33:58] one or two first insights that led you to that inevitability. We built the store very early

[00:34:04] even before him okay yeah 2011 is where we looked at the first store and was it in China?

[00:34:11] In Delhi, in GK1 market was a disaster of a store. Yeah yeah I've read a little bit about it

[00:34:16] in Delhi. It was a disaster yeah we got the format wrong. The second thing is that

[00:34:22] see doubling down is not going to do with number of stores it's got a number of customers right

[00:34:27] at my price point I think we both have the same journey you you realize there's a tactile need

[00:34:35] in the product and the tactile need cannot be satisfied unless and until you have you know you

[00:34:41] have physical locations. What we are doing both of us to that extent and I think it's always

[00:34:48] great to see what he's doing because there's something for us to learn at all times and before

[00:34:52] that we spend a lot of time with Bobby Parker the model on which Lens got unscoiled as well

[00:34:58] and the time spent with Neil etc we realized that tried home model which they had done over there

[00:35:02] we tried building that in India as well also extremely inefficient when the infrastructure is not there

[00:35:07] you as well happens a credit card you can swipe on it and you can reverse back and all of that stuff

[00:35:12] is very easy. So nightmare with the OTPs etc in India to do that part to treat all this as a return

[00:35:18] is not a feasible structure at all while the OTP is great I'm not complaining about that piece

[00:35:24] but I'm saying that the infrastructure is just not there to do this reverse logistics just doesn't

[00:35:29] exist in India at all right it is even today and extreme so it's a poor experience in a

[00:35:36] general commodity just imagine what it'll be in jewelry. So we almost do all reverse logistics ourselves

[00:35:43] in like top 30 cities or something like that. Yeah so you have your own employees too.

[00:35:48] I'm not sure I mean not really employees but are controlled and far beyond that let's just do this for us.

[00:35:55] So stores became it just became so easy and understanding for us and the way if the path we took

[00:36:03] was so we didn't want to raise more capital we were very clear about that part but raising more

[00:36:08] capital is a very expensive thing for us it's just too much dilution and then who are we working for

[00:36:13] that became the question always in the mind of the family as well also. So that constraint help

[00:36:18] because what did I ended up doing was that we went in clusters of cities and I really like Uber's

[00:36:24] model the capture the city moved to the next city and I thought we'll copy that and sort of build that.

[00:36:29] So 20 stores in Bangalore, 20 stores in Delhi we came to Chennai very late even though we were from

[00:36:35] Chennai we had one store in the office and we sort of live with that for a long time. Okay.

[00:36:40] Then we went to Hyderabad sort of did you know 15 stores there, then 10 stores in Bombay

[00:36:47] this is last city actually for us to come even today we don't have a store in South Bombay.

[00:36:51] Because when you put that constraint in your mind or saying that if it doesn't make sense financially

[00:36:57] we'll find another city to go to you'll go somewhere else in build a better quality business as well also.

[00:37:01] I'm just sure. And it's okay it's a very large country there is no need to be in Bombay

[00:37:06] absolutely and Bombay doesn't make sense for you and also we realize that the voting population

[00:37:11] of South Bombay is 8 lakhs. I get there in Lokhandwala so if I don't come to South Bombay

[00:37:17] it's not going to make South much as well also. Fair point now very well thought through. So

[00:37:21] you touched upon one point just for my curiosity and I'm sure the audience would love to here

[00:37:27] was it just that one round you raised from Tiger or you raised two rounds from we raised four rounds

[00:37:31] in Tiger all from Tiger. We had an opportunity to raise with Axel at that point as well also

[00:37:37] and they ended up investing in close to them after that okay so but we declined that because

[00:37:43] Lee in those days was doing a lot of work with Axel. That's right and so he sent me a cross to Axel

[00:37:48] do that it was 6 million five he said I'll put six then he called me and said why do you

[00:37:54] meet Axel if they can put one let them put one otherwise anyways I'm that put six and

[00:38:00] I went over to some of the people they had worked with because we were gopals advice always was

[00:38:07] that talk to people who they work with to understand what kind of partners are they for Lee fixel

[00:38:13] we went to America. Oh is it? Yeah we went then because there was no website of Tiger Global Management

[00:38:19] this man has reached out to us through LinkedIn and we have never heard of him before so

[00:38:24] he said let's just go touch and come and so he went to New York that time we met Chase and everybody

[00:38:30] we delivered some of my card reverse diligence. It always I mean you should talk to

[00:38:35] yeah and so I spoke to some founders and they said that look they're nice guys but if you

[00:38:41] have Lee fixel coming the next man is going to come from him. Yeah it's not going to come from these guys

[00:38:45] so why do you even need a guy sitting in Bangalore when you can work with a guy sitting in New York

[00:38:49] on that and one point in that conversation they said that Bangalore might be a better place to build

[00:38:55] from I think that was a deal break of me. Yeah and then how much capital got raised

[00:39:01] by in total? All put together 320 crores and then 99 crores later I think put in as well also so

[00:39:09] 420 crores are total investment in the business. Thanks and the last part

[00:39:15] of maybe that the Tata story is you talked about when somebody I mean at least principally when

[00:39:22] I look at if I'm buying something at a latest stage when the business mature. However I mean my

[00:39:29] compounding rate might reduce but I still dream about 5x 10x. Is that the dream you've left with

[00:39:36] Tata to manage that Titan from here on and is that come simply by expanding this

[00:39:45] this promise of the product and just the target market 200s of thousands or millions of

[00:39:51] more people because of the prosperity that this country is going to have. Or is it something more?

[00:39:57] What are they seeing? What did you see? I think Caritlin shareholding of Titan and the family

[00:40:03] was a perfect blend of the steadiness that they provided to the business and the agility that we brought

[00:40:10] in as entrepreneurs into that space and you know so it's sort of grew really, really well.

[00:40:17] I think when it became clear to them that they don't want to do an IPO is when they decided

[00:40:22] no then we better buy now than buy later and their logic for not doing an IPO was they don't want

[00:40:27] to have more listed entities in the group as stated by the chairman he wanted to

[00:40:32] to mention that one who can solidate the group as well. So in that context whether I take today

[00:40:40] or a validating 5 years from now whichever day it is I have to sort of deal with that problem

[00:40:45] of the management change and take over etc and so that was the view that they had.

[00:40:49] I said that relation to the so good like if I want to do something today I have no doubt

[00:40:53] that if it makes sense to their water partner they told me that already and done that right.

[00:40:58] So I mean so there was never the family was very clear we'll never spoil our relations with

[00:41:03] which we are doing and if this is what's written that journey is still here then it's still here.

[00:41:08] We were on a last year we grew 82%. Yes I'm coming to the compounding questions

[00:41:13] yeah I want to understand how that that sort of magical growth kicks in solid

[00:41:19] yeah there's any even on a much higher base but so you you obviously believed clearly that

[00:41:25] this is another this 10 20 X left in this journey. Oh easily yeah two years back I put out a dream

[00:41:30] saying that I think we have the opportunity to reverse largest direct to consumer jewelry business.

[00:41:35] Wow and India has a birthright when in jewelry the same way India had the birthright in

[00:41:43] software services because everything we cut here everything we do here we merchandise from here as well also

[00:41:49] but we don't capture the gross margin here because the brand is not the brand is not with us it goes

[00:41:53] out so with patient capital we have the opportunity to build this because it's a very slow journey

[00:41:58] it's not a fast journey going out there in the world and sort of building that out.

[00:42:03] And I think that dream everybody bought into but what that dream will cost the business as

[00:42:09] the way you know what world it costs whenever they have to sort of change this. In their eyes

[00:42:14] I was an individual it was not two corporations if this all this is two corporations like

[00:42:19] it go and I mean that has then I think it would not be a problem but as an individual and the

[00:42:25] power that it means for an individual nobody says about the power but I could feel that as well

[00:42:30] also right I mean those things happen. I'm just but I still think with the right if they don't touch

[00:42:38] the team or do anything a 40% cake of the next 10 years is not a problem. There case that comes

[00:42:46] up to the price if you were to do DCF and anybody can do that and figure this out is that they

[00:42:51] were under it in 23% for the next 5 years and that arise at the 17000 crore and a net present

[00:42:58] values in our years. Under so or 17800 which is the price.

[00:43:01] Under so awesome. So coming to some questions around the theme for the day which was like

[00:43:07] you know compounding you've already touched upon all those elements and it's very visible in

[00:43:13] you know the value that got created from the time you partner with them to now.

[00:43:18] In that journey I was wanted to touch upon a few things so value wise it's grown 30X so some of

[00:43:25] that could be this arbitrage on the fact that the bought you cheap and now they're recognizing

[00:43:30] the full value in 70 years did the Raboff effects of a data that I wish have a lot to do with it

[00:43:36] was or the other way around it sort of carefully and accelerate irrespective of whether

[00:43:44] it would have been under a Tata umbrella or not. I think the reason I'm asking that hard

[00:43:49] question is we find lot of businesses are reaching this 10 year points and are facing this

[00:43:55] question about what they wanted to post that because like we also discussed before we kicked off

[00:44:01] the podcast is after 10 years the financial investors who started and funded the journey are on

[00:44:08] their way out any which way. Most of them don't want to stick around. So the founders faced with

[00:44:13] the choice on whether you want to build for posterity or for 10 more years and the right partners

[00:44:20] might not be financial investors. Sometimes it could be a public offering sometimes it could be a

[00:44:24] strategic so we're trying to encourage more founders to be more open about this and say and I'm

[00:44:31] going to use the currently in story extensively have already started using it. See this is

[00:44:35] possible if I'm the right partner I'm not saying every marriage is going to end well but I'm

[00:44:39] saying you find the right partner you can be 25 30% shareholder and continue building immense

[00:44:45] well for the next 5 8 10 years if the if the partners the right one why you believing that the

[00:44:51] we see will be nice and not the strategic so maybe touch upon a little bit of all of that and

[00:44:56] how this compounding magically happened timing is a lot of things in life as well of course and

[00:45:02] we got a strategic on board when we had proven which is the growth strategy. What strategic

[00:45:08] scant do is they cannot invent, they cannot discover how to do this because they're so into

[00:45:14] their quarters that it's impossible for them what they can do really well stay with you for very

[00:45:21] long durations when compounding begins we had figured the formula to compounding at that point

[00:45:28] we had figured out omnis a right way to go by solving few stores in Bangalore and that's what

[00:45:33] gave us a confidence to do it. Now once you've figured that out what do you really need

[00:45:37] you need a capital for only two things brand as well as for working capital. When you get a

[00:45:46] strategic on board these are the two things you get. You get you know in all kind of business

[00:45:51] you get basically brand and the second thing that you get is I mean working capital because

[00:45:57] them being on the capital you don't need to ask them for money. You can just go back and say

[00:46:02] this is my shareholder and you're able to solve for that. That's some ridiculously good price.

[00:46:06] Yeah and so the only thing we asked for was the brand beyond that we would meet four times

[00:46:14] of your six times a year for board meetings and that's about it. We didn't want to take anything.

[00:46:20] The brand drop off in the initial version negligible on that part but when we distribution

[00:46:26] began we do believe that it had a much positive run on that whole thing and I think even more

[00:46:33] important was the board meeting conversations which are always about when you lose money what

[00:46:38] you're losing it for. We almost never had that question asked of us when we lost money what did

[00:46:43] you lose it for. What was your hypothesis to lose this money for and what did you learn from it?

[00:46:49] Because if you don't learn from that you're going to lose that money once again and I think

[00:46:53] Bankat who's the MD of Titan did a great job in asking that question to us for those two years

[00:46:57] that was there on the move. Now MD then CEO of jewelry business and I think that really helped us.

[00:47:04] So unexpected bounty was that part of it. Undying support in terms of letting us be and do whatever

[00:47:12] it was still we became profitable etc. was what we got from them as well also.

[00:47:17] On the ground our life was difficult because obviously the Tanish franchise is etc.

[00:47:22] Tanish teams never took the car at least when they were warm to us at all and sort of we live

[00:47:27] with that and that's fine. My neighbouring jeweler also was not nice to me so it's not something

[00:47:32] that one has to expect as well also. So I was absolutely okay with that piece. Initially you

[00:47:38] crib about it but then you have to someday sit back and realize that listen I'm getting so much

[00:47:42] yeah can't be cribbing about the two things I don't get. I know

[00:47:46] entrepreneurs have dreams and crazy targets but did you think this would compound this quickly

[00:47:54] in the as it did in the last seven eight years despite pandemic despite you know offline slowing down

[00:48:02] and weaving that into maybe maybe it's a part of your answer maybe it's not but for me I was

[00:48:07] thinking you know that lesson that you got from Darkest Engine Valor on margin structures

[00:48:12] and profitability that you learned from the strategics. I'm sure that played a very big role

[00:48:17] and did but did it anchor you for how you built for those seven years and was that the game

[00:48:21] change because this quantum is just mind boggling right and how much value got created itself.

[00:48:26] The minute you start looking at your business from cash flow perspective and not PNL perspective

[00:48:32] you realize how much cash you're going to take or rather how much cash will you have for your

[00:48:36] growth. So if you look at character in its journey formula discovered in 2015 properly done

[00:48:42] now the question is about expanding the formula. Merchandise's role is very clear now

[00:48:48] zero two I mean sorry year one to year 15 of customer please figure out every single

[00:48:53] life stage you buy is jewelry for solve the best merchandise offering for that perfect.

[00:48:59] So Merchandise is clear marketing knows this is the audience we are going after these are

[00:49:03] the distribution channels we are going after as well also so there was just that much amount of

[00:49:08] clarity on it. The missing clarity was a rocket added which is cash flow. What we would have

[00:49:13] ended up doing at it not been for him in 2017 I remember that conversation is that we had

[00:49:18] opened hundreds of and then what do you do you have no money? So you go asking for money then I'll

[00:49:23] be left with 5 7 8 10 percent equity plus all the risk of all of that working all hundred

[00:49:28] of that working as well also so this much cash will come at end to the year. So how much

[00:49:35] how many stores can I open? Next year this much more cash will come so how many stores can I open?

[00:49:41] As time went by you increase your compounding because you are generating more cash and so

[00:49:46] that's how you create a cash generating machine on this whole thing and so it just became as simple as that

[00:49:52] if the tan is not a challenge then compounding should be like human growth itself also.

[00:49:58] That your speed increases as you keep moving more and more towards your teenagers it should be

[00:50:05] no different than that. If you go to watch the McDawel Indian Derby that happens in Bombay.

[00:50:12] From here yeah it's a 2400 meter race. Yeah in the 2400 meter race there is a horse that is

[00:50:19] always winning the first 1200 meters that horse bolts out but he's exhausted by his 1200

[00:50:25] but the one who really wins the Derby gains most number of lengths as he hits the 2000 to

[00:50:30] 2400 meter marker. That's what makes the Derby exciting also but that really is the horse you

[00:50:35] want to back as well also. Great energy two elements of you know people culture compounding culture

[00:50:43] and the one thing that binds us which I didn't know we hadn't met all these years strangely

[00:50:49] is it's almost like the inversions of our lives right so I'm a Chennai Bond not born but

[00:50:56] brought up their 15 years straighter. It's a share where strangely now you teach as you said

[00:51:01] that's fantastic to hear. Then wanted around try to find my place and where I would eventually be

[00:51:07] and I'm an immigrant now in Mumbai and you've done the opposite. So there is a little bit of I think

[00:51:13] charm of both these cities running in our veins in Blackright. Also the it's a biased question

[00:51:20] I'm obviously positively thrilled in bias that there are some Chennai stories to be told

[00:51:25] right in this series which we didn't have last year. The other one which is not yet released

[00:51:30] is a friend from Arunay's cream. Of course yeah so I interviewed the Derby actually

[00:51:38] oh not Satyan and also fantastic story. Longest of this series 53 years so he started in 70

[00:51:48] and you talk about pacing nothing he said nothing happened for the first 20 years relatively speaking

[00:51:54] you should listen to that one yeah does there's a bringing around which city you're in

[00:52:01] and what is that city is culture did that make a difference at all I'm just curious because there's

[00:52:06] always debate on which is the best start-up city and did it influence a second thing which you

[00:52:11] also mentioned as long as Titan doesn't touch the theme and I love them to continue compounding

[00:52:19] we can beat their projections right and we can grow at 40% as a team. How do you instill that

[00:52:25] that culture? Again lessons it's a generic question but what are your idiosyncrasies that you've

[00:52:31] instilled in character image long past your tenure there? No frankly I never thought about

[00:52:36] and I've you know my co-founder of niche is a better person to speak about the word culture and

[00:52:40] I've never thought about I just said that you do what you do and everybody else does that right I mean

[00:52:45] it's what you speak is what everybody else does. I think one of the things that we are

[00:52:51] we at least had for a very long part we said we are extremely agile we don't actually have

[00:52:59] MRM itself we have a WRM and so even at this scale or whatever it is the WRM is the most important

[00:53:06] so on a weekly basis we are where we are and we course correct according to that we don't believe

[00:53:11] too much in the long run none of us have that sort of foresight in businesses. We can have that

[00:53:18] foresight in what consumer behavior is but we can't really have that in numbers in businesses

[00:53:22] and etc all all that stuff. So this is on the business side of things etc we will we keep our

[00:53:27] agility together by not thinking about it too long term as well also you know it's a very unique

[00:53:33] place character in till about a year back nobody got a promotion. In 10 years there was no concept

[00:53:40] of a promotion your role changed you got more responsibility on that and that more responsibility

[00:53:51] meant you got more money but they were not titles as well and whatever you came in as you can

[00:53:55] write what you want right your role was the only asker always told everybody so if this is your role

[00:54:00] then define your title as your role it doesn't matter whether you call this a vice president or

[00:54:05] president or anything else somewhere in the beginning we started some guys said you need to have

[00:54:09] a structure and do this thing now once again we are doing the now I'm telling you it's colossal chaos

[00:54:15] once you start doing this thing as well also. Now I agree with you but it's so difficult I don't

[00:54:18] know how you maintain this and you said you want to write see your right see you I have no problem

[00:54:22] so what would people write on the cards itself? Well why do you even need a card? LinkedIn became

[00:54:27] the place right where you write what you are. I'm not sure what you're writing like. Define what you do

[00:54:32] and write that very clearly across over there and if you are responsible for growing the business

[00:54:38] in a certain place as well if you are responsible the entire Omni network right I'm responsible for

[00:54:43] the Omni network as well also it's a sentence of five words that gives the explanation the vice

[00:54:48] president of caratlin has no meaning as a vice president in Titan there is no comparison of the two

[00:54:53] things. And look at all the people who come to our offices you know from banks I give you an

[00:54:59] example right now this wealth managers have been really artists there are some 45 wealth managers in

[00:55:04] one particular bank who are all vice presidents reaching for one client itself also it makes no sense

[00:55:10] so I think titles are the biggest you know hogwash of confusing people and trying to do this

[00:55:17] the there's another concept of holocracy where it is about the role that you do and I think that

[00:55:23] role makes you understand really what your job is and who else is required along with it as well.

[00:55:29] Correct. I think if you did holocracy and now we do okay as very well as well also if the two things

[00:55:34] are tied in really well together I think that works much better than having titles across so we never

[00:55:39] had those problems at all that people are saying oh look at this guy at the end of the year is getting

[00:55:43] this and I'm not getting that now we of course this year have all all those problems as well because

[00:55:48] you know we have to design our business now to start fitting into the Titan culture as well.

[00:55:52] That's the way they know how to manage it so and they possibly know how to manage that

[00:55:57] and I do see those things come in the way of building a vision I'm a non believer in it but

[00:56:03] everybody else believes in it and you go you know the buyer is right to run it the way he wants to

[00:56:07] run it as well also but I think for us not having those those problems was the because you could see

[00:56:15] who is doing more work and there was no problem with that part of it because the title didn't

[00:56:20] define that the job role always defined that part and then if he felt somebody was underpaid for

[00:56:26] the role that he was performing on anything there's always he's so available to sort of boost that

[00:56:31] and make that happen as well also. Fascinating, no idea that you had such a culture and

[00:56:35] it's very, very right to see anything even beyond 40, 50, 100 people. We succumb to those people who

[00:56:42] come from companies where they have seen this sort of structure and say oh I'm not growing and

[00:56:47] those two people might be leaving and we can't solve for them and then we want to put a

[00:56:51] a change it for the 98 other people who are actually willing to live with it and create a 98

[00:56:55] people problem as opposed to you know which was otherwise a two people problem it's helpful.

[00:57:01] But problem that we didn't I mean I was bullheaded about this one thing itself also and I thought it

[00:57:06] worked really well those who are obsessed with the two felt that it does not work as well also

[00:57:11] the result of the company shows that it worked really well we had very clearly if you looked at

[00:57:16] our attention as well of leadership etc all of that stuff. No that's inbuilt I mean you can't

[00:57:21] compound this way with that with that Trishan period yeah so and I think if I had to rebuild again

[00:57:27] and that's one thing I keep telling everybody I would do this whole esophies for every single person

[00:57:34] and whatever be the quantum but for every sense of ownership of not just for my employees but

[00:57:40] also all the stuff like colleague sorry but also for my franchises we shortchanger

[00:57:46] franchising partners on this part of it since you brought that up you said if I would do it again

[00:57:52] I'm going to use that as a cue for our finale question what are you going to be doing

[00:57:57] and it is all such a speculation around you know of course it takes time like everyone say

[00:58:03] you should take six months on the beach as you say but you know seeing your energy seeing how

[00:58:09] you've started building young so that's an advantage you're almost you've finished the

[00:58:13] sinning that with a lot more firepower to go what what is going to keep you busy for the short term

[00:58:20] if not for the long term what's what's on the term already building a bunch of stuff you know

[00:58:23] so a couple years back I created a problem all these years I sold a lot of jewelry yeah

[00:58:30] but all the jewelry that I sold there is one side of the house that also believes a dead in

[00:58:34] investment and they believe it's not fungible so I'm trying to solve that through a business

[00:58:39] call orow in which we are trying to make jewelry fungible without going to a pawnbroker

[00:58:48] so that's the model that we're building out and that's fairly interesting what we're trying to do

[00:58:51] there is a run finance thing is it it's around a line of credit understood yeah so we are

[00:58:57] solve for storage and fungibility on that one product I have I knew I had to at some point learn

[00:59:03] investing in a better manner than whatever archaestop he was more on the public markets

[00:59:08] and him and me had a dream to set up a fund together and that sadly it stayed as a dream so far

[00:59:14] but I partnered with Yash Kela and you know we sort of I'm a sponsor in the fund and I get to

[00:59:21] learn that's how I call it is my school where I get to learn everything so the fun side is that

[00:59:27] but I have no doubt that something else will come up and it's just going to take time to do it

[00:59:32] because orow itself has another three co-founders three fabulous boys who sort of built

[00:59:37] Jeannie out of Chennai yeah you didn't answer that so since I'm we don't Chennai

[00:59:43] clear that the recipe life is going to be in Chennai as well it's my chosen home and

[00:59:49] did play a role in how you think a lot just yeah it leaves you alone it allows you to

[00:59:56] flourish in this space it is I think cultures are very important part of anything you know of a human

[01:00:04] life many cities I worry you know for many of the modern cities of India there is no culture actually

[01:00:11] and many of the modern businesses of India also lack culture just as much we talk about

[01:00:16] business culture we forget human culture and the the number of times we heard the word toxic

[01:00:22] in these workplaces we almost never hear it in Chennai and we might not realize a value

[01:00:29] all of this right now but there is massive value of these different doubly so if you're building

[01:00:35] long term company businesses yeah the only one thing I hope is the next business whatever I built

[01:00:39] I never have to sell it website on that note we'll just move to a quick set of rapid fire questions

[01:00:46] sure and just a phrase or a word whatever comes to your mind one thing in didn't should know about

[01:00:51] jewelry or gold but they don't scale up the business which is your favorite piece of jewelry from history

[01:00:59] one that makes you like jaw drop the call in in diamond where is it by the way it is diamonds it's

[01:01:04] me it's so name how do you describe the power of compounding in one line slip easily it's a beautiful

[01:01:11] way to put it money for you is scoring life and one fun fact that you know many people might not know about

[01:01:21] you I want to be a stand up comedian oh awesome okay it's coming off the tribunal show

[01:01:28] I hope you'll meet that goal of yours we need more good stand up comedians yeah so hopefully

[01:01:37] wish you well on that journey thanks once again thanks method you've been a fantastic

[01:01:40] sporting surges we've gone like you know over and are seamlessly and I think I wouldn't have

[01:01:50] felt a sense of completion once I knew of your story mid course while recording this podcast

[01:01:54] if I didn't have you in as a part of the series so thanks for making it work and thank you so much