The rise of right-wing nationalism and intense polarisation is defining political debates and electoral outcomes across the world. So, many believe that the outcome of the US and Indian elections will be make or break for global democracy. What does the hard swing towards the right mean for all of us?
Rohit Tripathi, a policy advocate on a wide range of public issues spanning the halls of the US Congress to policymakers in India, speaks to All Indians Matter.
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[00:00:00] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter, I'm Aasha of Engineer. In a world that is swinging
[00:00:04] fast to the right, some elections matter more than others.
[00:00:08] Election season is well underway in the US. Donald Trump has come roaring back with his
[00:00:12] divisive isolationist and often racist rhetoric while Joe Biden struggles to showcase his arguments
[00:00:17] and justify his weak responses to crises like the one in Palestine.
[00:00:22] In India, two is election season and Nandranthra Modi's Hindu nationalism is well entrenched.
[00:00:26] The discourse is sectarian with democracy and the constitution projected as getting in the way
[00:00:30] of a Hindu rastra in which everyone else is a second-class citizen.
[00:00:34] The world over the rise of such right-wing nationalism and intense polarization
[00:00:38] is defining political debates and electoral outcomes. And these are not always based on sound
[00:00:43] information or perspectives, so many believe that the outcome of the US and Indian elections
[00:00:48] will be make or break for global democracy. What does the hard swing towards the right
[00:00:53] for all of us? All Indians Matter
[00:01:01] We have on the show Rohit Draparthi. Rohit is a policy advocate on a wide range of public issues
[00:01:05] spanning the halls of the US Congress to policymakers in India. He has also taught globalization as an
[00:01:10] adjunct faculty at the University of Maryland's Smith School of Business. Rohit's professional
[00:01:15] work spans two decades of emerging technology development and innovation in telecom
[00:01:19] and the broader internet infrastructure space. He enjoys exploring the nexus of business
[00:01:24] and policy through the prism of societal value and the leadership that nurtures it.
[00:01:28] Rohit has been on the show a couple of times before so he's something of an all- Indians matter
[00:01:31] regular. Rohit, welcome again. Thank you so much Ashraf. Thank you so much for that kind
[00:01:36] direction I'm looking forward to the conversation. Me too Rohit. So Rohit is all bad news right?
[00:01:42] We have already. So we already have not sure what oils we can do. We can have conversations about it.
[00:01:53] So we already have right wing nationalist regimes in place in India, Turkey, Italy, Russia
[00:01:58] and such political preferences on the rise in other places too such as France at the UK
[00:02:03] not to mention the US of course. What exactly is going on and why has this happened?
[00:02:08] You know that's a very difficult question to answer and I think there's been a
[00:02:13] a flurry of recent books that have come out as Donald Trump has marched onto the Republican
[00:02:21] nomination and it seems inevitable. Now it's guaranteed that Biden and Trump will you know
[00:02:27] go ahead to head in November. So a lot of the subterranean concerns or not the subterranean
[00:02:34] concerns that were in the general public discourse are now finding their way into publications and
[00:02:43] more forceful analytical arguments. And there are multiple frameworks Ashraf, honestly speaking
[00:02:49] intellectually to look at this shift which has not happened overnight as you know
[00:02:56] the current players are the current leaders of these what were subterranean movements but now
[00:03:04] they're out in the open and quite frankly pretty mainstreamed. The right wing politics that
[00:03:11] dominates and has power access to power today about 15 to 20 years ago it was on the fringes.
[00:03:17] So the progression has not been meteoric but it has been incremental
[00:03:26] but it has been steady and you combine with the I would say the sustained or continuous disconnection
[00:03:35] of liberals from the population that the govern is also been a factor. Now there are also structural
[00:03:45] factors. A lot of these democracies were created a long time ago when the demographics were
[00:03:51] different education levels were different when technology was different I mean it will be
[00:03:59] full-hardy for us to have a discussion around democracy today to not include the effects of
[00:04:03] of technology. So I mean there is no one satisfactory answer why this shift has been towards
[00:04:11] the right you could take a class angle. The middle classes have increased, have grown more
[00:04:17] influential their numbers haven't swelled but their influence has swelled and it seems that
[00:04:26] I've always felt that the middle class angle has been or their lens through which they view
[00:04:31] the world has been primarily my self-interest and everything else is somewhat secondary and
[00:04:38] the political parties and this is more so in India and the other places not perhaps in the United
[00:04:44] States but a lot of the middle class has gravitated towards a pride only political system because
[00:04:53] as you know I sure they've checked out of government institutions whether it be in health care
[00:04:58] they don't get their health care from government hospitals they don't get their education from
[00:05:02] government institutions they don't get their employment from government institutions so what
[00:05:07] is the role of government for them yes there's an infrastructural goal they have that they want
[00:05:13] infrastructure to be good because it's common but other than that what are they deriving from
[00:05:17] what do they want from government you know some of them are you know taxpayers of you know
[00:05:24] rather earnestly pay their taxes and what they are seeking perhaps is just a comfortable identity
[00:05:32] that goes along with their middle class economic lifestyle and I'm from that same class so it's not
[00:05:40] you know that it's something that I'm saying from the outside this is the inside out view of
[00:05:46] what's happening the right wing shift and then obviously the people who have detected this kind
[00:05:52] of susceptibility or behavior within the middle classes have basically then designed an identity
[00:06:00] are designed a politics based on identity that why don't we give you something that you can be proud of
[00:06:08] because we know that you have a certain level of prejudice now the prejudice spectrum is wide
[00:06:14] you know some of the the right wing supporters have little prejudice some have a lot
[00:06:20] the supremacists are on the right complete right of the right and then there are those people who are
[00:06:24] tolerant of the supremacists but they themselves may not be supremacist at an individual level
[00:06:30] so that's that's one factor there that the successful parties have been able to and I would say
[00:06:35] sometimes almost being able to manufacture grievance for this class so that they have a much
[00:06:41] stronger route in their identity that you know you should you should identify yourself as this
[00:06:46] specific entity the specific religion the specific subcast or whatever it is because there are
[00:06:51] grievances now we one could argue that how most of them are real some of them are exaggerated some
[00:06:56] of them are just manufactured and so that's the right wing I would say outside of the US in the US
[00:07:02] it's a little more complicated I would say in the US I think there was definitely a group of
[00:07:09] a bit chunk of the population that was left behind during globalization you can argue why they
[00:07:14] are picking a billionaire to represent them you know one would have imagined that that grievance
[00:07:19] would come through organized labor or something else but what's interesting to understand is that
[00:07:25] the right movement in the US has its genesis in a very staunch anti-government movement that
[00:07:33] started with Ronald Reagan so it's the genesis of that movement and the people who got a
[00:07:38] targeted to it really kind of determined where that movement has ended up now that the disaffected
[00:07:46] are perhaps against their own self-interest and there were just I mean and they're ample example
[00:07:50] that comedians go out of the streets and ask these questions you know they'll say you know why
[00:07:54] you're going to vote for Donald Trump and they're going to say oh because he lowered my insulin
[00:07:58] prices and that was done by Biden so it's just like a complete you know there's a cognitive dissonance
[00:08:03] here but for somehow or the other the Trump campaign and the movement overall has been able to
[00:08:10] identify certain grievances whose relevance to people's lives may be completely questionable
[00:08:17] like immigration a person who is not able to find work in the northeast why is where they hating
[00:08:25] on people who are coming from the southern border I mean like it's just yes there's a national
[00:08:28] security issue etc etc etc so I think in the US to sum it up it's a little more complicated
[00:08:33] why the shift has been to the right there clearly is a disaffected population but they
[00:08:41] don't seem to be going along the direction of their own self-interest so the famous book
[00:08:46] called what's wrong with Kansas Kansas seems to keep voting republican despite the fact that it was
[00:08:50] almost the worst state in all social indicators despite sustained Republican governance so
[00:08:57] it's not a satisfactory answer it's a complicated situation I'm sure but identity is again
[00:09:03] a manufactured identity again is definitely an issue there are supremacist threads very strong
[00:09:08] supremacist threads in all right wing movements across the world and then there's a custom bespoke
[00:09:16] local conditions that are affecting it I think something very similar in India where a lot of
[00:09:21] the people who have actually been left behind are also voting for the right wing supporting the
[00:09:25] right wing and the people who have been that strong anti-government sort of sentiment is
[00:09:31] translating into support for this government we'll come back to that I just want to touch
[00:09:35] upon something that you said now as far as the right wing is concerned in Europe and the US especially
[00:09:41] immigration seems to be the stage in ground so to speak why is that how is that happened because
[00:09:46] we know that immigration is usually good for a country it's good for the economy I think you know
[00:09:51] this is again a tough question I would say that there's a difference between so-called controlled
[00:09:56] merit-based immigration and then there is immigration that's done on humanitarian grounds and
[00:10:01] that's always been a tassel in most so-called developed countries the US and I mean in the US both
[00:10:08] both systems are broken both the undocumented humanitarian immigration system is broken asylum
[00:10:14] system is broken as well as illegal system is broken I mean the number of people who are legally
[00:10:19] here waiting for the green cards and how long of the way it is just insane people are waiting
[00:10:25] for the green cards for 10 15 years their families are going to complete limbo etc that's a legal
[00:10:29] side and then you have the the undocumented side the people who are seeking asylum and so on so
[00:10:34] forth but I think foundationally the tassel has been the terms of engagement with people coming in
[00:10:40] and I think certain societies depending on the government and power or lenient and they had
[00:10:47] lacks humanitarian rules so there was a surge in immigration I mean we can see that and then of
[00:10:53] course Europe is complicated because the Europe has a lot of colonial history and they made
[00:10:59] different deals with their former colonies obviously when when people from those colonies came
[00:11:04] in they were treated as second-class citizens so the assimilation was wasn't there they had to
[00:11:11] subvert their identities and so on so forth so that was a natural tension plus Europe has been
[00:11:16] let's face it I mean a pretty racist society you know it's I just find it remarkable how far the
[00:11:22] UK has come in its tolerance but but the rest of Europe has struggled I would say France especially
[00:11:28] you can see you know it's a very segregated society it's not as mixed as you would have imagined
[00:11:34] like the the UK is so I think the again the tussle is between the kind of immigration you want
[00:11:39] the the right mingers will say yeah let's bring in the engineers and doctors and and let them
[00:11:44] come let them trickle in because that's who we need whereas the left ringers are saying we
[00:11:50] I mean I don't know if they're carried a certain amount of guilt for colonialism or imperialism
[00:11:55] but they're a little more lenient on on the so-called merit argument let's let's bring them in
[00:12:01] and give them a chance to live in a Western democracy and and what they say is that these guys will
[00:12:06] come in people will come in and assimilate in the culture there's no open conversation about let's
[00:12:11] create a new culture so the so and that's where the tension is a lot of people want to sustain their
[00:12:15] culture maintain their culture and a lot of people you know or some people are open to that coming
[00:12:20] in and and richer culture and that's those of that that to me is a fault line and I don't think
[00:12:25] that illegitimate fault line you know you can you can obviously take out the racist part of it
[00:12:30] I mean people have spent centuries building a certain culture I mean the same thing happens you know
[00:12:34] when we make the argument here in India a shruff that you know we want tribal communities to be left
[00:12:38] alone right we don't want to penetrate them so there's a reason for that so every community whether
[00:12:43] tribal urban national does try to protect its culture it's and that's legitimate and I think
[00:12:51] they have somewhat of a right to manage how people from the so-called outside are coming in
[00:12:57] and and joining their community so those tension are the normal I don't find them abnormal but you know
[00:13:03] there are historical threads that they said the racist thread there's a colonial thread
[00:13:07] that the colonial thread automatically imposes a superiority on the host country right
[00:13:12] there'll be a superiority ruled you so when you're coming here make sure you know your place so
[00:13:16] that's the kind of attitude is still there they're never coming in as equals yeah so let me pick
[00:13:21] at an economic thread do you think there is a definite link between the rise of the right and
[00:13:27] tougher economic times so you know it's it's the right to the right in India was not about tougher
[00:13:34] economic times at all right I mean India was doing really well at 2014 so there was no reason
[00:13:38] no economic reason for the India to take a hard right turn right even the US 2016 overall now
[00:13:47] this is the difference I didn't want to point out that the right wing presents economic issues
[00:13:54] in every micro terms like how are you feeling in your household and you and I know that's not how
[00:13:59] the macroeconomy works right you know in physics there is the behavior of subatomic particles
[00:14:06] which is ruled by quantum mechanics and then there is the meta world which is ruled by Newtonian
[00:14:11] mechanics and there's no simple line that you can draw from you know classical physics to
[00:14:19] you know quantum physics same similarly there is no straight line you know that you can draw
[00:14:23] from microeconomic issues of the household to the economic issues of the nation
[00:14:30] for probably not Democrats here the Congress party in India people don't do a good job of
[00:14:36] explaining that complexity and the right wing always harps on the on the simplicity simplistic
[00:14:44] reductions argument that we should know the government like you run your household and that that
[00:14:48] resonates so even if you know Biden says the inflation is down at 3% historically low what people
[00:14:54] are feeling when they go and bite bread and eggs and you know the staples that bothers him or even
[00:15:01] if they see you know 20 percent you know 20 cents a gallon more on the for gas that that bothers
[00:15:06] them and that articulation is just not there and the right wing is able to harp on it now remember
[00:15:12] the right wing in the US is in the opposition right now in India it's in powers the behavior is very
[00:15:17] different it's very different but but the one thing that is common is that if you look at and I
[00:15:23] want to say something important here because the BJP in India has you know whether we like it or not
[00:15:30] done a decent job on executing on some very key close to home schemes and so the support they do
[00:15:41] have within the lower ranks of the economic ladder is not completely legitimate you're talking about
[00:15:48] welfare schemes I think they're well first came to absolutely yeah so and now we could argue that
[00:15:54] hey they were they were drafted in the in the last government in the UPA and so on so forth so you
[00:15:59] can you can lay claim to the BJP not having the imagination to you know bring in newer schemes
[00:16:05] and uplift everybody and so on so forth but the schemes that they have inherited and extended
[00:16:12] and executed they seem to have cleared of thresholds for people a shuffling out they didn't you know
[00:16:18] I mean we can talk about this later in the show inequality is a big factor here right so if
[00:16:24] the Indian upper classes are growing at say 50 percent a year I'm just giving you a throwing out
[00:16:30] number to your right as long as the the lower ranks of the economic ladder are growing at 5 percent
[00:16:38] you clear certain threshold of viability right as long as I'm not negative and you don't create
[00:16:44] you know some kind of malfeasance there like oh my gosh this is like you know we got to fight them
[00:16:49] so the inequality is is is there for us to see but the fact that these guys have been smart
[00:16:56] and this is where the BJP is different than most right wing folks elsewhere because
[00:17:00] they are so attuned to the electorate it doesn't mean that they're the best option for the electorate but
[00:17:07] they know what is their minimum threshold they need to provide to stay in in power so you know
[00:17:14] you got to give operational creditors do and it seems like for the two or three key schemes
[00:17:22] that resonated with people this goes through the micro thing like what's happening in your household
[00:17:26] what's happening with your gas connection those are the very basic things what's happening with your
[00:17:29] basic sanitation and so on so forth you know what's happening with your family health insurance I mean
[00:17:34] things like that now they're I mean as a policy advocate you and I can talk about you know all the
[00:17:39] gaps are in there but the fact that a minimum threshold has been achieved has really cleared
[00:17:45] the electoral bar of acceptability for the BJP so that's something we just cannot and we should not
[00:17:51] deny I mean the cost at which that is coming is totally different but no one's giving
[00:17:56] that macro view right I mean in business we have to think all about scorecard right where you
[00:18:01] look at a company and you look at not just the financial metrics of the company we look at
[00:18:04] non-financial metrics of the company same concept between when he compares shareholder capitalism
[00:18:09] to stakeholder capitalism but the problem is the opposition has just not been successful in
[00:18:14] articulating this there's broader set of metrics of which the the metrics that the BJP
[00:18:20] outperforms on are just a minority but they're relevant so we should not you know discount them
[00:18:25] so BJP is doing a different game I just say they're in power outside of power you know
[00:18:31] you know they have a different role well the last thing I would add is and I think we should probably
[00:18:37] get to it is the is the role of institutions and the control and the capture of institutions
[00:18:42] and that I would say not just governmental institutions but then the media so that is a big big C change
[00:18:48] that has happened in the last 10-15 years and it's that playbook is repeated everywhere from hungry
[00:18:54] to Poland to Russia to India and India to a slightly lesser extent than I mean Russia is an
[00:19:02] crazy example the US is struggling to commit you know to sustain its free press but that's one
[00:19:08] and an institutional control I mean the number of federal judges are sure that Trump had
[00:19:13] appointed in his three years not to mention the three supreme court judges which completely for a
[00:19:17] generation shift the balance and the judiciary they're they're right wing is all been very smart
[00:19:23] about how to use institutions and this is one thing that I will I'll make you aware a sure of
[00:19:28] that in Trump 2.0 they've taken a very different approach here Trump 1.0 was coming in like a horse
[00:19:36] in a China store let's break everything from 2.0 is saying you know what let's capture all
[00:19:43] institutions and then we'll see what we need to do much different approach just the way the campaign
[00:19:47] has been organized a sure of the way they're taking control of the Republican national committee
[00:19:52] they just laid off all the former workers they're putting their people in there so a change is a
[00:19:58] foot but you know the US right wing movement is now starting to look more and more like the other
[00:20:04] right wing movements yeah I know I'm we're going to talk a lot about institutions the media a little
[00:20:08] later in the show I wanted to touch upon this inequality bit a little more no one thing in
[00:20:13] particular that intrigues me is the support of the working class for politicians like Modi or
[00:20:18] essentially flying the flag of the billionaires is strange because once they're in power
[00:20:22] the mega rich get richer national resources begin to flow even more they weigh in inequality rises
[00:20:28] but yet the support for politicians do this is as strong as ever so I mean let's go back to
[00:20:36] the middle class definition that I was giving it's a loose definition it's it's a definition that is
[00:20:42] empirical it's not necessarily you know theoretical my sentiment is that the middle classes worldwide
[00:20:50] especially in India are very risk averse are sure of if they can see that they can get a 5% return
[00:20:56] on something they'll stick with it they won't care if somebody else is getting a you know 50% return
[00:21:02] is that I'm saying and and that's what's I think happening if the BJP is able to give them that 5%
[00:21:09] return they're happy they're taking it and they're like they're okay with it I mean this may not be
[00:21:15] the best analogy but just the Indian middle class was the last demographic participant in the Indian
[00:21:22] freedom movement they joined at the last because they they thought they had the most to lose they
[00:21:28] had a clerical job with the British they had service job with the British you know they're like we
[00:21:34] I mean this revolution thing is it's not for us there was a last people so and that character has
[00:21:39] not left them even now I mean it's and and I think that's that's what that's what you're seeing
[00:21:45] at the lower middle class you know and we're not bringing social identity here yet at all
[00:21:50] we're not bringing the cask piece piece here at all but that's another dimension altogether
[00:21:54] but I just feel going back to the argument I was making earlier that these guys have cleared
[00:22:00] that minimum growth threshold for the lower classes what's amazing to me is the is the lack of ambition
[00:22:11] from you know that beyond where they are and that's that's the the challenge I feel that you know
[00:22:22] and and what's what's what's what's sat to me is that the the Congress party in India and
[00:22:29] progressives I mean let's just say it's just say it's the on India for a second they have not
[00:22:33] articulated a compelling message for the middle class we have a very powerful message for the
[00:22:39] marginalized sections of society no question about it and the marginalized economically marginalized
[00:22:43] socially marginalized marginalized in any any relationship or form so that's in that way they're
[00:22:48] following the classic liberal progressive playboy but where they're lacking is what do you have to
[00:22:56] offer the middle class now you don't have to win them over by you know playing soft and dutva
[00:23:01] or paying playing to their prejudices but you have to give them something aspirational
[00:23:08] of course you know I feel that sometimes the bgb government goes over the top you know they'll
[00:23:12] throw out numbers like ten trillion dollars and by 2050 whatever the number is I mean just there's
[00:23:18] no economic basis to come up with some some of those things but they're aspirational numbers you know
[00:23:22] and I just haven't seen a counter to that that is still positive from the congress party or
[00:23:30] or any other opposition leader so going back to your question why does the lower middle class hard
[00:23:36] working people still vote for the for the bjp or are in their camps in sufficient numbers to
[00:23:42] sustain their power I feel is because they are okay with this so-called trickle down as long
[00:23:48] the trickle down is filling their cup to a certain amount you know and they're basically saying
[00:23:54] that this is my best alternative and it's stable the other thing right I mean the risk of version
[00:24:00] means I want stability if I'm getting half a cup of milk every day but it's guaranteed
[00:24:05] I'll take that half a cup of milk every day you know you know I'm not going to take that chance
[00:24:09] and we're not a society that is that has a habit of or a culture of taking risk and I sure if I
[00:24:17] always tell people that if you know if you want to look at the state of any society look at the bankruptcy
[00:24:22] laws the bankruptcy laws in a lot of societies are indicative of their risk appetite of that society
[00:24:29] but social economic so there's no recourse of taking a risk and the risk not handing out in India
[00:24:36] so therefore you see that people are settling at these these lower levels of existence and
[00:24:40] just sustaining themselves they're surviving I mean Ashraf that's a high
[00:24:46] actually that's also coupled with the high level of populism which doesn't always make a difference
[00:24:50] to people's lives but you know so what do you make of that people like to be part of something
[00:24:58] larger and if hate and grievance are involved like whoa man that's just it grievance sanitizes a lot
[00:25:07] of other things that you know wrong some some people may do and I think that's where the populism is
[00:25:16] so attractive and I think if you are creating populism at the expense of a minority or a group
[00:25:22] that is relatively weak then that bullying effect gets multiplied pretty fast you know and you know
[00:25:30] sadly the only comparison I can give is like you know what happened in Germany we're not there yet
[00:25:35] in India but it's happening across the board I mean finding a tiny minority not even a tiny
[00:25:42] minority finding a minority that is relatively incapable of so-called fighting back or standing up for
[00:25:47] itself and pushing them there is this you know mentality this is I mean and this is this is like
[00:25:55] you know well researched Ashraf that with the power balance between two communities or two entities
[00:26:00] becomes so large abuses inevitable inevitable and you know you see that in prisons especially it's
[00:26:08] so and so forth but this happening at the at the mass level in India right now as as the as a
[00:26:14] power imbalance between and the lack of recourse for injustice between a certain section of
[00:26:21] Hindu society certain section of Hindu society not across the board and everybody else grows the
[00:26:27] abuses are growing and what's interesting is you know I was talking to my dad the other day and
[00:26:35] he was saying that how the right wing has been able to recruit folks from the lower castes to
[00:26:43] their anti social groups and and the trouble is caused by them they're paid for it so populism
[00:26:56] is being funded pretty strategically and the participation in that populism is being diversified
[00:27:04] to showcase as if like the grievances across the board it's not just with one company one part
[00:27:10] of the demographic so they're playing a very smart game but populism is again a populism is
[00:27:18] is the other side of the other side of the populism coin is hatred and and once you the combination
[00:27:23] of religion hatred grievance as I said manufactured or real it's deadly concoction and very difficult
[00:27:30] to disentangle by any political force before proceed you mentioned your dad I just want to let
[00:27:37] listeners know that your dad is professor vacated part here very well known peace activist and who's
[00:27:42] also been a guest on the show of my favorite episodes actually but Roy coming back to the conversation
[00:27:48] do you think artificially induced cultural insecurity drums genuine economic insecurity what I'm
[00:27:54] trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you're eating less or don't have a job but someone
[00:27:58] telling you Hindu Khatre Meha or that America is no longer great seems to be a great driver of
[00:28:03] political choice so my my conjecture here a shreve is that that a slogan like that is targeted to
[00:28:11] a sub segment of the population not for the not for everybody yes and I think it's it's let me
[00:28:19] put this way the messaging is is is not generic so it's very custom you know when say Hindu Khatre
[00:28:28] they're targeting the middle class upper middle classes for the lower classes who are more
[00:28:34] tuned to the economics the messaging is slightly different but you know what's interesting a
[00:28:38] shreve is that that as you go down the economic ladder and this is like a you know it's turn to
[00:28:44] analyze class behavior if you are in a lower rung of the the class system you will try to imitate
[00:28:54] the behavior of the class right above you so that you can feel as a part of that class right so
[00:29:01] that's where it seems like you know in a very crude terms that there's a peer pressure
[00:29:06] to to buy into that narrative right like you know it's fine that people use to say in the US
[00:29:12] that hey I see they become rich you become republican there's some truths to it I mean
[00:29:19] republicans have always been uh stingy on taxes so the more money you have the more you want to
[00:29:24] save and so and so forth but I think that it's important to understand that behavior through
[00:29:31] the prism of class you know why is it that they they behave that way and I said in the beginning
[00:29:37] give the example of that book what's wrong with Kansas which is like multiple in wrong with
[00:29:42] Kansas but one thing that that I feel is that play here is that class imitation or class belonging
[00:29:49] everybody wants to look at riches and they actually are and then they adopt their persona they
[00:29:55] want to act richer they know they're not richer than they actually are but they get at least act
[00:29:59] that way and that has a powerful effect it really does and and that's why they buy into the narrative
[00:30:07] presented by the media which is coming from a certain class background uh certain cultural
[00:30:12] background so I think there is a snowball effect that that happens and then again I shuff I mean
[00:30:18] let's just let's just face it the alternatives have just not made it so people are basically just
[00:30:23] resigning to the default option that's out there there's no knob to turn per se now the the
[00:30:31] opposition would say that hey we were we're being systematically eradicated we're not being given any
[00:30:37] the finances of have dried up uh the media is against just and so forth and I think a lot of those
[00:30:42] complaints are very legitimate there's also you know you know concerns about institutional
[00:30:46] impropriety I mean we just saw what happened with the election commission the way the uh the new
[00:30:52] officers were appointed and so on so forth so there's a lot of that happening as well but if you
[00:30:58] take the view of an ordinary citizen looking at the political choices as I said they just don't see
[00:31:05] that the knob can turn much in either direction so the knob is stuck so you know that's where they are
[00:31:10] uh Roy is also in uh in a country like India especially this political philosophy is marked by an
[00:31:17] effort to decentralize rather to centralize uh I should say uh take power away from the states
[00:31:24] why is that and it's a secret to capitalism isn't it it is and uh so that's one thing that's
[00:31:31] happening in the US so far that the states are very strong and uh in India there's other cultural
[00:31:39] fault lines I mean the north speaks Hindi the linguistic lines are are very stark
[00:31:45] and you you know whether anybody else are sure of that the north south divide politically is getting
[00:31:49] starker by the day and uh yeah I mean a lot of us have in the so-called progressive community
[00:31:57] have talked about India's federalism being the bulwark against uh a hegemonic uh central authority
[00:32:05] but I am concerned about the delimitation exercises about it come up in 2026 if the seats are
[00:32:12] apportioned by population then the south will be significantly disadvantaged uh and their claim
[00:32:20] is that all the gains we've made through human you know my development you know HDI metrics etc etc
[00:32:26] seems to be punishing us for for having less kids right uh and running a more sustainable
[00:32:33] you know uh state of affairs federalism is obviously always a threat to centralize authority if the
[00:32:42] states are not subservient so if every state was run by the BJP I think you'd see a different kind
[00:32:48] of federalism and if now that the fact that half the country is not run by them it's a different kind
[00:32:53] of federalism uh there's a very clear line of uh finances between the center and the state
[00:33:02] which is sad because that gets usurped into the political uh situation and I think you know
[00:33:09] if if the states non BJP states continue to see a disruption of their finances that are due to
[00:33:15] them from the central uh from the central government I think that's going to cause some serious
[00:33:19] problems uh I just I mean I hate to say this but I just feel that the Indian union is under some
[00:33:25] stress I mean it's not it's not in the stress where you know back in the day in the US civil war
[00:33:31] which by the way happened about 80 80 years into the US independence
[00:33:36] and India is approaching that point so it's a very natural uh thing for India as a nation state to
[00:33:45] experience fishers like this it's nothing abnormal you know uh and the US of the war was brutal uh
[00:33:53] you know we all know that uh you know hundreds of thousands people died and it just completely
[00:33:57] remade the country so 75 years three quarters of a century seems like enough time I sure
[00:34:02] for a lot of folks multiple generations to kind of see does the system that do this does the
[00:34:07] system that we have you know serve the people uh uh uh well or not and what's missing so
[00:34:16] made a reformation is underway and I think that the BJP is going to try if they win next next
[00:34:21] this year which you know looks like they will uh and and the way they're producing themselves
[00:34:25] in the Rajasoba to make sure you know confidential amendments are are are quite possible right so not
[00:34:32] is feralism going to be under under threat or it's going to not function as well but I just feel
[00:34:37] that the overall nature of the constitution can be changed and to me that's honestly a bigger
[00:34:43] concern uh because once you change that then you know and I don't know what to say I mean after
[00:34:50] that yeah feralism seems like a small uh small issue but to your point already you know bopies
[00:34:56] of the constitution that will hand it out uh uh uh missing the word secular I think yeah oh I
[00:35:00] wouldn't be surprised I mean that to me that's like priority number one yeah uh for uh for the
[00:35:07] current government uh to get that that word out uh I mean everything they've they've done in the
[00:35:13] last you know especially in the second term they've not hidden their their desire to
[00:35:21] make Hindu identity a big part of Indian identity and uh we saw that and at the Ram Mandir the way
[00:35:29] that that function was conducted who participated who did not participate and so on so forth
[00:35:36] and uh it's it's inevitable I think India is in for some seriously interesting uh turbulent times
[00:35:42] but you have to see optimistic that'll come out of it uh but what will come out of it
[00:35:46] it's going to be a very different republic it seems Ashraf uh then what what is going in as
[00:35:52] yeah yeah absolutely so Roy let me just shift gears a little bit work of movements now we're seeing
[00:35:58] a strong farmer movement in India we're seeing a very strong farmer movement in Europe
[00:36:02] but generally speaking welcome movements around the world on the decline so why do you think this is
[00:36:07] and what do you think its impact will be over the long term so here I would say what's interesting in
[00:36:11] the US is that I think there has been a resurgence of organized labor and uh you saw last year
[00:36:18] in the US and obviously the fact that Biden is a very pro-unian president he was even on the
[00:36:24] picket lines with some of the workers in Michigan uh the labor unions are organizing has found a lot
[00:36:32] of attraction in the Gen Z folks and much on the younger side of the millennials so I think now
[00:36:42] the problem with worker movements are changing because the economy has changed right I mean people
[00:36:46] are not working in factories etc etc so they're working in service side industry it's a service side
[00:36:52] or organized service side organization has been typically a little more challenging than you know
[00:36:57] factory-based industrial organizing has been and uh you know the uh corporate leadership is
[00:37:05] very aware of organizing you know efforts you know you can see it what Amazon does and so
[00:37:11] and so forth so there's a tussle there so the question I think I would ask in addition to
[00:37:17] what you're asking is is there a political arm to that organizing now uh the parties like the
[00:37:25] Democratic Party the Congress Party I mean they they will and then you see this in the uh in
[00:37:30] the farmers movement right Ashraf that the political parties have support from the outside
[00:37:35] right and these movements have themselves not been able to organize themselves politically to win
[00:37:41] anything so I think there's an organizing gap uh this is a this is a technical gap that and you
[00:37:50] know I do a lot of work in non-violence and non-violence action and just methodologically they're big
[00:37:57] strategic gaps in the way these things are approached Ashraf there I mean it's ironic we're in
[00:38:04] the land of Gandhi and we don't know how the Thakur has conducted which is don't we go
[00:38:09] and dis protest protest is the step is a fifth step in Sattagra step number five we're completely
[00:38:15] oblivious of the first four steps and I think in one of the earlier podcasts that we did I think
[00:38:19] I talked about non-violence so I mean methodologically we are off I mean if you want to be harsh to the
[00:38:26] the farmer movement a little bit and I think that the fact that you skipped so many of the earlier
[00:38:31] steps and you don't build that leadership you don't build the program you don't build the support
[00:38:33] among the people and you just show up there showing up is is uh is an act of you know
[00:38:41] I don't know if the desperation is is you want to just register that uh you have an
[00:38:47] emotional response to the current situation but that's not sufficient to win you know it isn't now
[00:38:54] one would argue that hey last time they did this this Sattagra for these many months 700 of
[00:38:59] farmers died and moved the other take it back but they're back at it again you know I mean
[00:39:05] you you you you you you you you you're not seeing the imbatants between the people and power and
[00:39:08] and you a war of attrition will not be won by the protesters as long as they don't have until they
[00:39:16] have wide support within the people and that part has not been done I mean they want sympathy from
[00:39:23] the people but that's not enough they need uh they far more things than they need participation
[00:39:28] from the people and that's that's what nonviolence does I mean if if properly executed that's what Gandhi
[00:39:34] did I mean Gandhi was there were like a hundred and some people walking from Dandhi to uh from
[00:39:39] from Sabamati to Dandhi but everywhere else people are participating they were ready to break the
[00:39:43] salt law and so on and so forth that level of activation has not happened uh and I think I
[00:39:49] I'm going to put that on the organizers who are focused on this one aspect of protesting but not
[00:39:56] on the broader building up of the movement uh nationwide they're trying hard I mean it's not easy
[00:40:01] it's not easy but I think we have a lot of Jolly Aatra I think uh which is similar to what
[00:40:06] you were seeing so it did have an Karnataka uh my personal feeling is that yeah if the Aatra had
[00:40:14] been done before the five states went to the polls it would have had an impact
[00:40:18] the gap was too long and there was no follow-up I know people who were organizing it they tried their
[00:40:23] best to follow up but it's just I just think that it was uh there were a lot of organizing gaps
[00:40:30] organized it doesn't end with the march itself what are the other things you're going to kick off
[00:40:34] and and what time for you're going to kick them off yeah right I mean we'll see yeah yeah so
[00:40:40] institutions I said we come back to them in a while how do compare the takeover of institutions in
[00:40:46] the US and India so interestingly so let's let's break them down um so in India
[00:40:57] the institutional penetration effort started much much I mean long long ago
[00:41:05] the RSS has known for decades that India is affected by its bureaucracy so while they may not have
[00:41:14] won a whole lot of elections at the center level over generations they've they've penetrated
[00:41:20] the lower ranks and sometimes the upper ranks of the bureaucracy so that's one uh but in the shorter
[00:41:27] term what's happened is that and this is now broadening it out from uh from India when when
[00:41:36] right wing politicians gain control or capture power they want to capture power what it but what
[00:41:42] you would call absolutely and they know that uh it's important to eliminate any challenges to their
[00:41:51] power and that's where the anti democratic parts come in so the the security agencies are number one
[00:41:59] the number one capture that they want to do um I mean it's it's it's they have to leave
[00:42:05] a semblance of propriety but in the beginning they're surgical uh you know they have to maintain control
[00:42:12] over the agencies so they'll tell them you know who they need to go after uh and the agency can
[00:42:17] then manufacture the why uh and that's across the board I mean I mean it's there are instances
[00:42:23] of that happening in India there are instances of what happening in and I mean Russia has completely
[00:42:29] gone uh and you know Turkey etc etc I mean that's it's happening everywhere unfortunately
[00:42:36] and I'm sure it's happening rapidly in China uh so that's that's one kind I mean they know there's certain
[00:42:43] specific institutions that uh that have to be captured so I was giving the example when Trump came
[00:42:49] in the first time he wanted to just break everything etc etc now he's realizing that you know what
[00:42:53] I there are some institutions that I can actually use so let me use them right so he always want even
[00:42:58] when he was uh president he wanted the department of justice to pursue certain investigations again
[00:43:03] the security agencies internal control internal security that's where it starts because that's
[00:43:07] how you start discrediting your political opposition that's how you start discrediting you you you
[00:43:12] start you know eliminating political opposition um so that's on the governmental institution side and
[00:43:18] then of course I mean if you're brazen these are controlling the the conduct of elections itself
[00:43:24] I mean here in the US you saw the attempt of election interference in which there are actual cases
[00:43:29] against Trump right now uh and uh you know this time you know people are really concerned election
[00:43:35] you know workers are concerned about their safety and so and so forth so there's already tension
[00:43:39] here uh and India you know there's been a massive you know uh a people in the sense that people
[00:43:46] are very ambivalent about EVMs right and then the sanctity of election and so and so forth
[00:43:50] the way they're conducted the way the rules of uh quote of conduct is applied to different candidates
[00:43:57] you know the leeway given to uh the incumbents whereas the the tight leash on which the opposition
[00:44:03] leaders are and so on so forth so uh that's another example of in my opinion I'm a institutional
[00:44:09] capture these are executive agencies now let's talk about the judiciary which is the bigger problem here
[00:44:16] I feel a chef that the uh the measure of any democracy is is the ease of access to
[00:44:25] recourse that a citizen has an ordinary citizen right if something he or she feels has been done wrong
[00:44:31] to him how does that person respond you know what can we're going to go and who could listen to them
[00:44:38] and who will listen to them in a timely manner and uh but that's just at the individual level but
[00:44:44] then there's you know those things go up the appeal process goes up and then it also goes up
[00:44:48] to the supreme courts of both countries uh in the US uh you know a Senate majority leader
[00:44:55] Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell who was the Republican leader for 17 years just retired
[00:45:00] he announces retirement and why he's an important figure is because he has been absolutely
[00:45:05] instrumental in changing the nature of the US federal judiciary including the supreme court
[00:45:14] where the conservatives their Republicans have a six to three advantage and those things are
[00:45:18] lifetime appointments they do not change anytime soon the Indian Supreme Court is a lot more churn
[00:45:24] in terms of shorter and so forth not in the US Supreme Court so again this is the kind of
[00:45:30] arsonist kind of mentality that we're playing the long game you know the the Republicans are like
[00:45:36] you know I don't care we may win or lose presidential elections we may win or lose
[00:45:41] the House of Representatives we may win or lose the Senate but we will permanently control
[00:45:45] the judiciary so no matter what the executive or the legislative passes or does
[00:45:50] we have a way of blocking it as as you know through the judiciary uh in India it's been a little trickier
[00:45:58] I mean it's been baffling to see how the courts have ruled how they've not responded to cases for
[00:46:08] so long uh the cases that they have responded immediately have been cases that are important
[00:46:14] to the government but the cases that are important to the government's opposition have been deferred
[00:46:20] continuously uh so the I mean as they say right justice delayed is justice denied
[00:46:26] and that's what we are starting to see I mean there are more sinister views of the world that
[00:46:31] the Supreme Court has compromised and this and that I mean I do have a lot of respect for an
[00:46:35] enduress so I'm not gonna go to that extent but I'm just empirically looking from the outside it seems
[00:46:42] that that selectivity does beg the question uh why why are you being so selective I mean why
[00:46:50] it takes so long to talk about article through 70 you know and and so on so far so yeah or they
[00:46:55] continued incarceration of political prisoners and so on and so forth I mean there's a lot that
[00:46:59] came we talked about but I want to ask a fundamental question do you also believe that these elections in
[00:47:05] India and the US are like a last chance for democracy in both these countries and also
[00:47:11] would have a global impact as far as democracy is concerned I think India's last chance has uh
[00:47:19] was 2019 sorry to say and I'm saying that because the probability of the BJ Blue thing in 2024
[00:47:28] is relatively low uh and therefore I just I I foresee India continuing on the current trajectory
[00:47:38] whether that saves democracy it is definitely going to alter democracy in India and that will
[00:47:43] definitely have a global impact because India is look up to looked up to across the world uh it
[00:47:50] is the largest democracy it is an extremely diverse democracy uh it is rooted in a very ancient
[00:48:00] culture uh Indians in the diaspora doing extremely well have become very influential so
[00:48:08] uh whatever happens within India the way India conducts itself domestically uh absolutely has an
[00:48:17] impact on democratic forces and other countries and so on so forth I mean as you know
[00:48:21] India was the beacon of hope for a lot of countries fighting for independence about 67 years ago
[00:48:28] and a lot of them imitated the new leadership they followed them they read them they consulted
[00:48:35] with them and so on so forth uh but now uh you know we'll have to see if that if if
[00:48:42] India is again I mean our Prime Minister wants to compare we compared to Prime Minister Nairu all the
[00:48:46] time so Nairu inspired a different generation and different genre of leadership we'll have to
[00:48:51] see what who are the international leaders coming up who Suci you know Narendra Modi as uh as an
[00:48:58] idol uh we want to see that I mean and let's see what that that throws up regarding the US I think
[00:49:05] for the US this is a much stark or choice because the election is much much closer and and the
[00:49:13] approaches that both Biden and or the philosophies the Biden and Trump are bringing to the table are
[00:49:20] very divergent um the air is ace and given the structural elements here ashraf that this is going
[00:49:27] to be a single four-year term for Trump so whatever he wants to do whatever his people want to do
[00:49:33] whatever the ideological movement behind him wants to do they have four years to do it and that's
[00:49:37] it so that is a small window so given that sense of urgency I think the changes within
[00:49:45] US government at least and then as a result of your democracy can be and probably will be dramatic
[00:49:52] and a lot of the things that these guys have uh have aimed for for example you know I would
[00:49:58] be surprised if they say less we don't need a department of education there's no federal role
[00:50:02] in education that could be completely just in one stroke just wiped out uh and the last time you
[00:50:08] saw their environmental protection agency was also rendered pretty ineffective because they think
[00:50:13] climate change is a hoax so we could see may seriously you know uh serious uh change of course uh
[00:50:21] in US democracy and and what will that what that'll do is two things ashraf number one to whatever
[00:50:27] degree and yes you know the United States is current stand on the Israel-Palestine conflict has
[00:50:33] discredited it significantly even internally and then we didn't get a chance to talk about that but
[00:50:38] Biden has lost a lot of support a lot of support amongst the youth here because of that stand they may
[00:50:45] or may not vote for Trump but the fact that if they sit at home Biden cannot win the election period
[00:50:50] hands down uh so there's the problem there but for whatever reason I mean how bad you know Biden
[00:50:56] may have been the US is still at some level by some people seen as an arbiter of and and somewhat
[00:51:01] somewhat batting on the side of democracy you know they'll say a few things right or at least you
[00:51:05] know the support in Ukraine and so forth I mean that's a complicated issue but if if if if if Trump
[00:51:10] comes in and he redefines and re re remakes US democracy in a in his image in a different way
[00:51:17] then people outside are just losing examples to to imitate right if India goes a certain way
[00:51:23] if the US goes a certain way then what are my best practices I don't know what they are anymore
[00:51:28] you know it seems like uh and you know it actually helps a lot of authoritarian people
[00:51:34] like Trump and Xi and they're like see this is what it is our system is better everybody's moving
[00:51:39] towards a single party strong man system that's the way nature wants it that's Darwinian let's let's
[00:51:46] live with it and that's it and I think you know as long as they're not expansionist
[00:51:49] uh they won't have wars and they'll just completely control people on and their own borders and
[00:51:54] as you say make merry and that's what I think uh could happen so yeah major major stakes for both
[00:52:00] countries next year but this year rather so what does the world look like in which Georgia
[00:52:06] Meloni has the Italian government Modi heads India Trump is US president Rese Paisaghan
[00:52:13] is the Turkish president Vladimir Putin is firmly entrenched in Russia and Marine Le Pen is on the
[00:52:18] rise in France I think you've seen a lot of that already and I think the world is living in silos
[00:52:24] and I think the key element as I said just like a minute ago was as long as as these people are not
[00:52:30] expansionist right uh I think the world will just gravitate towards a new equilibrium right so China
[00:52:39] was interesting before she came along right very self-contained didn't want to go out into the South
[00:52:43] China Sea did not want to bother its neighbors etc etc they were using their economic might to
[00:52:49] create influence in Africa and elsewhere in the world but as soon as she came in the last few years
[00:52:54] he's been a little expansionist been more aggressive towards Taiwan uh created these fake islands
[00:53:00] artificial islands in the South China Sea you know ruffled some as I said militaristic feathers
[00:53:05] the folks that are coming in the right wingers are relatively isolationists which are interesting
[00:53:10] right I mean Trump does not want to be in Ukraine he wants you know he doesn't care about Palestine at all
[00:53:16] he's like you know Netanyahu do whatever you need to do so uh the new right wing is isolationist
[00:53:22] they are that's one thing they've learned from the fascist uh you know movements of the 30s and 40s
[00:53:29] that expansionism is is basically accelerating your demise if you won't have longevity just maintain
[00:53:36] these borders suppress some minorities uh whoever you need to suppress create an artificial
[00:53:42] you know sense of grievance and just rule forever uh and looks like it's it's it's I mean it's working
[00:53:47] China uh it's it's it's uh I don't know how long it can work in in in in Russia after Putin is gone
[00:53:54] and someday you know you know you will be gone you know even if not now in 20 years or whatever
[00:53:59] so I think as long as they don't they don't expand they don't impinge in fringe upon anybody else
[00:54:06] or uh I think the I think you know for better or worse we will we will be in a new equilibrium
[00:54:14] uh Shrevej and Minabin equilibrium that you and I will enjoy perhaps because we will probably find
[00:54:20] our value systems to be a little more out of step with the emerging value system and I think
[00:54:28] it's going to be upon you know people like us to see what kind of I don't want to say resistance
[00:54:33] but how do we bridge the new gaps? I'm I'm a positive optimistic person uh and you know we cannot
[00:54:41] be self-righteous here at Shrevej that our value system is the best but you know we know what the
[00:54:46] core tendence of a humanitarian value system are so it's it's going to be an interesting navigation
[00:54:52] that we will have to undertake uh in the next five years I would say at Shrevej I mean let's
[00:54:57] put a put a data on the calendar you should we should you and I should have a chat in five years and
[00:55:01] what's transpired uh have we really achieved a new equilibrium or some of these forces have
[00:55:07] gone a little out of whack and you know the equilibrium we will achieve Shrevej will be unstable
[00:55:13] because egos will only get inflated as we go along so we'll see yeah let's see if it's five
[00:55:17] years I'm allowed to have this podcast or not but if we if we if it's still there we will
[00:55:24] but so let me tap that sense of optimism that you spoke about uh what's the way out and also
[00:55:29] I mean so what's the solution to this right wing threat I would say and
[00:55:34] what can civil society and even common citizens do at an individual level okay so
[00:55:40] changing the universe happens in both in two directions but top down and bottom up and it can
[00:55:43] happen simultaneously right so there are two parallel efforts that have to be undertaken I feel
[00:55:49] so let's look at the look at the top down top down I think uh the political discourse needs to
[00:55:56] continue to have progressive voices and you know maybe it's another conversation I'll
[00:56:01] show off the difference between progressive and liberal because I think the liberal voices have
[00:56:06] done on this service to the progressive cause in my opinion but I think we need to continue
[00:56:12] to create space for uh progressive political forces because uh they need to become a more effective
[00:56:21] messengers of progressive politics so number one so that's the top down thing that has to happen
[00:56:25] at the national level at the state level even at the local level at the citizens level I think
[00:56:30] what we need to do and this is something I've started to do now uh with some some organizations
[00:56:37] we need to build what I call our non-violence muscle organizing muscle
[00:56:43] children uh young people should understand should know how to organize they don't know how to organize
[00:56:50] uh our generation was lost I mean our parents generation well maybe our grandfather's generation
[00:56:55] grandparents generation Gandhi taught them how to organize and what I'm seeing is that there's a lot
[00:57:00] of progressive angst but it has no channel to uh to deliver that angst it's like we're just shouting
[00:57:07] we're radially outward the energy is getting wasted so uh how do you organize how do you
[00:57:13] effectively conduct non-violent campaigns uh how do you uh methodically research different
[00:57:19] you know opinions how do you develop local leadership how do you develop a plan that allows
[00:57:25] a wider you know population to participate how do you negotiate with your so-called adversaries
[00:57:30] who you want to convert then how do you ultimately protest if you don't get your way at that point
[00:57:35] and then ultimately a shruff how do you reconcile with the people you fought against
[00:57:41] very very important this is the there is a methodology this is our Indian methodology I mean
[00:57:45] this is what frustrates me is I do the in Gandhi's country non-violence is not understood non-violence
[00:57:52] organizing and not understood Gandhi the strategist is completely misunderstood uh or this it's
[00:57:58] said people are just ignorant about it so bottom up learn how to organize and not the labor organization
[00:58:05] not the strike part but there's this Gandhi and non-violent you know nonviolent transformation
[00:58:11] that organization and there's a extremely well-developed analytical framework for that
[00:58:16] I'm gonna be working on that for the next you know hopefully few years uh
[00:58:19] try to spread that as much as possible from the bottom up and top down continue the conversation
[00:58:24] keep challenging the right wing rhetoric not just on the emotive side but I said on the substantive
[00:58:30] side remember the beginning of the conversation I showed if I talked about acknowledge the fact that
[00:58:36] the right wing forces may be doing something right on the execution side of say welfare schemes
[00:58:41] right so when we discredit them completely and we create this contradiction in people's mind
[00:58:48] they're saying okay no I'm getting this stuff but you're saying I'm not getting this stuff of course
[00:58:52] I'm getting this stuff there's credibility gap there so you've got to be credible on the progressive
[00:58:56] side of things as well uh and ultimately I sure if we don't find ways of building bridges
[00:59:03] with who even our adversaries I think we're we're gonna I mean and this is my this is my
[00:59:08] my request even to my right wing friends that I'm here to talk to you to build something together
[00:59:13] you will not be able to go far without us you will constantly be wasting your time and energy
[00:59:19] on terms suppress us so let's build something together I mean as long as we're not compromising
[00:59:24] on our principles on our humanity you know we can have disagreements about so many different
[00:59:28] policies etc etc but it's there's there's nothing to be gained by artis for for for countries
[00:59:36] India and the United States and democracies by having such divisive adversarial politics uh
[00:59:43] and I think hope that people you know realize that so hopefully this political representation
[00:59:49] that uh can emerge us sure of that people can trust that these guys will actually build bridges
[00:59:55] and not create silos uh and divide us into different camps so what here's a question I ask all
[01:00:01] of my guests at the end of the show now I've already asked you this a couple of times in the past
[01:00:04] because you've been in the show so how for we try to answer this differently why do you do this work
[01:00:10] so i'll tell you a short uh i was thinking about that question uh late December
[01:00:16] we very suddenly lost one of my uncles here in Maryland uh was very close to me
[01:00:22] and uh you know i was you know part of the grieving process the shock uh but I just you know
[01:00:29] I just kind of don't on me how ephemeral fleeting our lives really are and it also kind of
[01:00:37] gave me the opportunity to bond with my brother family and uh my aunt and my cousins and you know
[01:00:42] it's grief has a has a powerful role to play and it just kind of made me just re-evaluate a few things
[01:00:50] and i'll tell you that we take ourselves sometimes too seriously and I do what I do because
[01:00:56] I feel that the responsibility we have towards each other and just in general i mean this is taking
[01:01:04] a more biosphereic you know view of the world towards life is significant we have a duty towards
[01:01:10] the biosphere not just humans but everybody and i think that if humans cannot organize themselves
[01:01:16] in a peaceful way then life on earth is doomed so i think we have to i mean i really feel that
[01:01:23] a think about it right i mean the the leader of the world the leader of a nation is effectively
[01:01:28] leader of the entire biosphere you know yeah the animals are not voting the trees are not voting for
[01:01:32] you but guess what everything you do is going to affect them and i have started to believe that if
[01:01:38] we don't develop a notion of leadership that is uh biosphereic then we will not even contextualize
[01:01:46] our petty you know differences in a way and not only that we'll just destroy the ecosystem that
[01:01:51] nurtures us so from from here on out Ashraf i i'm taking a slightly more earthly view of things
[01:01:59] maybe sometime down the road we'll have a chat about what if if nation states are good right now
[01:02:04] or not i mean is that the best we have organizing human beings you've seen i mean the right
[01:02:09] being capture of these nation states can lead to adverse consequences and so forth uh the reason
[01:02:15] I do what I do is because i feel that as as the human species we have a very important responsibility
[01:02:21] towards each other and and our earth and i think given the climate crisis and other things
[01:02:28] we're a tipping point here uh so we don't we don't act then we lose three billion years of evolution
[01:02:34] you know and we won't even be in history the way we lose ourselves so uh it's time to act
[01:02:40] and it's time to play our our our do row uh because we've been given a lot and it's time to give back
[01:02:46] right thanks so much for being on the show uh you're most welcome and i thoroughly enjoyed it
[01:02:51] thank you all for listening please visit all indians matter dot in that say double l i n d i a n s
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