73 years after his murder, Gandhi lives on as India’s conscience. Why does he still matter – especially to the young?
Find out in Episode 6 of the All Indians Matter special series on Gandhi’s assassination.
[00:00:03] Ideabrew Studios presents, All Indians Matter, In-Depth
[00:00:08] There is an indefinable mysterious power that pervades everything.
[00:00:14] I feel it though I do not see it.
[00:00:17] It is this unseen power which makes itself felt and yet defies all proof
[00:00:24] because it is so unlike all that I perceive through my senses.
[00:00:30] It transcends the senses but it is possible to reason out the existence of God
[00:00:37] to a limited extent.
[00:00:39] Even in ordinary affairs we know that people do not know who rules or why and how he rules
[00:00:48] and yet they know that there is a power that certainly rules.
[00:00:54] Hello and welcome to All Indians Matter.
[00:00:56] I am Ashraf Engineer and this is the final episode of our 6 part conversation
[00:01:01] on Mahatma Gandhi's killing with Tushar Gandhi, great grandson of the Mahatma
[00:01:05] and president of the Mahatma Gandhi Foundation.
[00:01:07] He is also the author of the book, Let's Kill Gandhi, a chronicle of Gandhi's last days,
[00:01:12] the conspiracy, murder investigations and trial.
[00:01:15] In part 5 we spoke about the myths and theories designed to confuse people
[00:01:20] about the assassination.
[00:01:22] In this episode we will talk about why Gandhi matters even today, especially for the youth.
[00:01:29] Tushar, why is the truth about Gandhi's killing important today?
[00:01:35] Ashraf I believe that truth is timeless.
[00:01:38] There is no use by date for truth and that's why it is very important
[00:01:43] that when you know the truth you must tell that truth to people
[00:01:48] because people who forget the truth or abandon the truth
[00:01:52] or are ignorant of the truth are bound to commit the mistakes of the past
[00:01:57] which finally end up damaging the collective goodness of all the people.
[00:02:04] And so I believe very strongly that since I have equipped myself with the truth
[00:02:09] it becomes my duty to tell it as I know it to people
[00:02:15] that's where this entire knowledge is also continuously evolving.
[00:02:19] While we recorded this I told you that another truth was revealed to me just two days back
[00:02:25] and fortunately because the reprint of my book has not still gone into print
[00:02:30] I was able to incorporate that into the book so the readers would get that
[00:02:34] because the other side is continuously cooking up theories to spread misinformation
[00:02:41] and so it's equally important that the people who know the truth
[00:02:45] and who are honest enough to not decorate the truth or spice it up for effect
[00:02:52] must also tell it with equal conviction and strength.
[00:02:57] Why is it particularly important to tell this truth to those who still believe in Godse's philosophy?
[00:03:04] Because Bapu's martyrdom was the only thing that set them back
[00:03:08] and maybe if we can tell the truth with equal conviction
[00:03:13] we will be able to shake this nation out of the insanity of hate which we see it being gripped with
[00:03:21] where love jihad becomes a national importance where Gaurakshya becomes
[00:03:28] not only a religious action but a patriotic action
[00:03:32] and implying by it hatred for a particular community, hatred for the Muslims
[00:03:38] I think the truth is the only cure for this deep-seated malice that is gripping our nation
[00:03:45] Did you and your family try to meet with Godse's family and if yes what happened?
[00:03:50] This still confounds me Asha. This why we went and met Gopal Godse
[00:03:55] is beyond my comprehension even now
[00:03:58] but I was a kid at that time and I had no say in what my family decided
[00:04:03] This was in the early 70s, I was hardly about 10 or maybe 11 years old at that time
[00:04:09] My grandmother Sushila Ben came back from South Africa
[00:04:14] and she was staying with us and one day she told my father that she wished to go and meet Gopal Godse
[00:04:22] Gopal Godse had been released from his life and wasn't meant by that
[00:04:25] Gopal Godse is Nathuram's brother and a co-et cuased in the Gandhi murder case
[00:04:30] who had been sentenced to life imprisonment
[00:04:33] and in India at that time life imprisonment meant 14 years minus remissions and good behaviour and all that
[00:04:40] So Gopal had been released in the late 60s and he was just settling down into normal life with his family in Pune
[00:04:49] and my grandmother expressed the desire to go and meet them
[00:04:53] The only reason why I think my grandmother wanted to do that was to convey to them that the family of their victim
[00:05:01] held no hard feelings against them, held no anger against them or any desire for revenge against them
[00:05:09] and so my father obliged his mother and we drove, the whole family drove down to Pune
[00:05:14] Generally our ritual used to be that when we went to Pune the first stop was Agakan Palace
[00:05:20] to go to Ba and Mahadev's Akash Samadhi's, the memorials to Kasturba and Mahadev Desaibapu's secretary
[00:05:29] who had died during the imprisonment in Agakan Palace
[00:05:33] and pay our respects to the two memorials and then go about whatever else we had to do
[00:05:38] and this time also we did the same thing but this time after the visit to the Agakan Palace
[00:05:43] we went to the Godse residence and we met Gopal Godse and his wife Sindhu Tai
[00:05:48] and pleasantries were exchanged and a few civilized, little civilized dialogue was carried out
[00:05:56] and we left and that was the end of it and I just couldn't understand why we were doing that
[00:06:03] because I didn't see any remorse on the part of Gopal or his family about the act they had committed
[00:06:10] I did not hear any expressions of regret about what they had done
[00:06:15] or even sympathy from them for the family, for the grief that they had subjected the family to
[00:06:22] and while growing up I just couldn't understand what was the reason that we had to do that
[00:06:27] Now that I am hopefully wise, I believe that the intention was to let them know that we held no anger for them
[00:06:36] but now that I am wise, I also want to make it clear that I wasn't party to that family decision
[00:06:42] I still hold anger against them
[00:06:44] My book is a result of that anger that I have bottled up inside me
[00:06:49] I thought by writing the book and by sharing this information like this with people
[00:06:55] I would be able to expunge that information from my system
[00:07:00] but because the campaign of misinformation against Gandhi and the justification of his murder continues
[00:07:08] the resentment also continues
[00:07:11] and this is an effort to go beyond it so I couldn't understand why we did it but we did it at that time
[00:07:18] and later on when Gopal started becoming a public figure and became the icon of the Gandhi murder
[00:07:23] he used to boast about the fact and he used to claim that the Gandhi family only came to visit me
[00:07:29] because they appreciated what we had done and they agreed with what we had done and things
[00:07:36] of course the warp mentality of a murderer would always think that way
[00:07:40] There was another incident also in his old age
[00:07:43] when my friend Priyath and Dulkar invited both me and Gopal Godse to appear on her show, Priyath and Dulkar show
[00:07:50] to talk about the murder and things
[00:07:53] and after the shoot was over in those days we used to have those lapel mics
[00:07:58] and for some quaint reason they had entwined the wire of the lapel mic in the chair of the...
[00:08:05] in the leg of the chair we were sitting in before lapeling us
[00:08:09] and when pack up was announced because the attendants were busy with everything else
[00:08:14] nobody came to un-mike us
[00:08:16] and Gopal being impatient and an old man he tried to get up and walk off
[00:08:21] without realizing that he was still bound with the chair
[00:08:24] and that small tug was enough to set him off balance
[00:08:28] and I realized that he was going to fall because of that
[00:08:31] and instinctively I rushed to his aid and I caught hold of him and I not fall and regain his balance
[00:08:39] and ensured that Gopal was secure and safe
[00:08:42] but there were press photographers present on the set at that time
[00:08:45] and so this action was photographed and splashed in the newspapers with the headlines that
[00:08:51] the great grandson helps the murderer
[00:08:53] and Gopal made hay of it
[00:08:56] he actually framed that photograph and claimed that the action was out of admiration for him
[00:09:03] that the great grandson also admired his great-grandfather's murderer
[00:09:08] because at that time Gopal had started claiming that he was also a murderer
[00:09:13] and that was as important in the conspiracy and all that
[00:09:16] and when that happened I really felt that I should have just watched him fall
[00:09:20] and break a few bones instead of being humane enough in trying to safeguard a real old man
[00:09:27] but that was there that kind of warped belief
[00:09:31] the self-righteousness of them
[00:09:33] that they were grasping at every straw that they could clutch
[00:09:36] Do you feel bad about feeling that way about Gopal almost falling
[00:09:40] Gopal would say almost falling because it's not very Gandhian is it?
[00:09:42] It's not Gandhian it's I don't claim to be a Gandhian also
[00:09:46] I am a normal human being
[00:09:48] but in my heart I knew I would never allow the old man to fall and hurt himself
[00:09:55] What was Naturam Gotse without Gandhi?
[00:09:58] An insecure man, one who looked upon himself as a failure all his life
[00:10:02] was perhaps driven by the need to be known to make a mark for himself
[00:10:06] in whatever warped way possible
[00:10:08] Indeed the only reason Gotse is remembered or mentioned today
[00:10:12] is because he attached himself to the Gandhi story by killing him
[00:10:16] Gotse has no relevance without Gandhi
[00:10:19] this is evidence enough of the defeat of the ideology that drove Gotse
[00:10:26] Tushar has your view of Naturam Gotse evolved over time?
[00:10:29] I have understood the man, I have understood his need
[00:10:33] a failure all his life
[00:10:35] his claim to fame is in that one action of his life of murdering Gandhi
[00:10:41] and I know that it is an irrefutable fact of time
[00:10:45] that whenever Gandhi will be mentioned
[00:10:47] his assassin will always be linked with his identity
[00:10:51] and so the only importance of Naturam Gotse is in being a murderer
[00:10:56] and that is inescapable and inemoidable
[00:10:59] Let's get a little personal here
[00:11:01] What was your home like growing up?
[00:11:03] What are the conversations at home?
[00:11:05] And what are they like today?
[00:11:07] Well, the conversation because in my childhood
[00:11:10] our home was sort of a transit camp for a lot of Gandhians
[00:11:16] and eminent Gandhians, ministers of the government
[00:11:19] and big luminaries would drop in at our home
[00:11:23] because we were the descendants of Gandhi and the home in Mumbai
[00:11:27] So we had people like Raja Ji and we had other Acharya Kriplani
[00:11:32] and many others I have played in the laps of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan
[00:11:37] and people like them
[00:11:39] And so I had a kind of knowledge of the historicity of those times
[00:11:45] I used to listen into adult talks about life in Sevagram
[00:11:51] and the period during the end of Vapu's life
[00:11:56] and the period of independence
[00:11:58] and the early years of India, the ministry, congress ministries
[00:12:03] and things like that
[00:12:04] So I grew up listening to many important facts
[00:12:08] I remember on one occasion sitting in Pandit Nehru's lap
[00:12:12] at the Raj Bhavan in Mumbai because he had ordered my father
[00:12:16] that whenever he was in town
[00:12:18] he would like to spend some time with the family
[00:12:22] and my father was ordered that he was to bring the family to Pandit Ji
[00:12:28] So we would all make it a...
[00:12:30] you know Pandit Ji's office would inform us when it was convenient
[00:12:34] and then all four of us would troop to wherever he was
[00:12:37] and spend some time with...
[00:12:38] and Pandit Ji during that time
[00:12:40] nothing could distract him or dissuade him from being with us
[00:12:45] So I have those kind of vague memories of...
[00:12:48] that was very, very early childhood
[00:12:50] I think I remember it more because it was told to me so many times in my childhood
[00:12:55] that I feel actually as if I remember those moments
[00:12:59] but that was the kind of upbringing in the other
[00:13:01] when I started understanding things
[00:13:03] I also used to hear these snatches of the...
[00:13:08] confusion of the family about the murder
[00:13:12] and questions being raised and talked about
[00:13:16] and answers not being found about how that could have happened
[00:13:19] and especially because the Kapoor Commission was in session
[00:13:23] my father would come back
[00:13:24] he was a journalist at that time
[00:13:26] and he was deputed to cover the sitting of the Kapoor Commission in Mumbai
[00:13:30] and so every evening when he came back home
[00:13:33] he would be talking about the days proceedings
[00:13:36] at the Kapoor Commission and the information brought about
[00:13:40] and he would be filing his reports and things
[00:13:42] So I would somewhere in my subconscious all that register
[00:13:46] and it created a lot of confusion because
[00:13:50] in my teenage the voices of justifying the murder
[00:13:54] were getting louder and louder
[00:13:56] and again in my youth, in my 20s
[00:13:59] I was expected to defend Gandhi
[00:14:02] all the accusations would be aimed at me
[00:14:04] even today they'll throw challenges to me and say
[00:14:07] what's this about?
[00:14:08] what about this?
[00:14:10] So I am sort of expected to defend my great-grandfather
[00:14:13] I have never felt the urge to defend my great-grandfather
[00:14:17] because I believe that he is much bigger than anybody like me
[00:14:20] to be capable of defending him or needing to defend him
[00:14:24] but I believe that the truth must be told fearlessly
[00:14:28] and so I keep repeating that
[00:14:30] and that has become my nature
[00:14:32] and I believe that this quest about garnering the truth
[00:14:35] even after writing this big huge book
[00:14:37] I haven't been able to
[00:14:39] I'm still reading the Gauba book as curiously
[00:14:42] and marking out details that I'm finding in there too
[00:14:45] so the quest is ongoing
[00:14:47] Kusar today, Prime Minister Narendra Modi and the BJP
[00:14:51] make a big deal about honoring Gandhi
[00:14:53] but these are also the same people who believe in the RSS philosophy
[00:14:57] and the RSS philosophy is pretty much ties in
[00:15:00] or at least in large parts ties into that of the Hindu Mahasabha
[00:15:04] what do you make of it?
[00:15:06] I also want you to talk a little bit about simultaneously
[00:15:09] there is an attempt to paint
[00:15:11] God says this great portrait
[00:15:13] to normalize his thinking
[00:15:15] to even make him a hero
[00:15:16] I think there was also some report about
[00:15:18] some temple being dedicated to him
[00:15:20] so what do you make about all of this?
[00:15:22] See, there's a lot of hypocrisy in the Gandhi worship
[00:15:26] The Gandhi worship has been reduced to a mere ritual
[00:15:30] and it's not only done by the Sangh
[00:15:33] it was the practice had become official in Indian politics
[00:15:36] that there were two dates to be associated with Gandhi
[00:15:39] and we had to do the rituals and forget about it
[00:15:42] even amongst the people, you know
[00:15:45] that we were to do the rituals and forget about it
[00:15:47] even amongst those who claim to be his followers
[00:15:50] so when these pretenders came into power
[00:15:53] the Hindi proverb has now become the practice
[00:15:57] Mume Ram Bhagal Mechuri
[00:15:59] I have converted it to Zubabhe Gandhi, Dilme Nattooram
[00:16:04] which means that Gandhi is on the tip of my tongue
[00:16:07] but in my heart beat his murderer resides
[00:16:11] That is the exact and honest description of Narendra Modi
[00:16:15] He claims that he is pained by the statement
[00:16:19] that Nattooram Gaurse is a great patriot
[00:16:22] who should be worshipped
[00:16:24] but he continues to sit in the front bench
[00:16:27] of the segment of parliament
[00:16:29] where in the next exact noirow behind him
[00:16:32] the member of parliament who said this in public
[00:16:35] sits as an MP
[00:16:37] and this is what the claimed worship of Gandhi is all about
[00:16:42] Tushar, I want to take you back a little bit in time
[00:16:45] Gandhi seems to have had a premonition about his killing
[00:16:49] in which he described to his grandmys Manubain
[00:16:51] Tell us about this
[00:16:52] In the last years of his life
[00:16:54] Gandhi had talked about his death
[00:16:56] and the kind of death he wished to have on many occasions
[00:17:00] This was brought about initiated by
[00:17:03] the sense of betrayal he felt while travelling through
[00:17:06] the riot-ravaged districts of Naakhali and Bihar
[00:17:10] and then Calcutta and Delhi
[00:17:13] and just kept increasing
[00:17:14] and that was the time
[00:17:16] till then he was always talking about living for 125 years
[00:17:20] There is an incident
[00:17:21] after a failed attempt on his life
[00:17:23] when he was in Pune
[00:17:25] in his post prayer speech
[00:17:27] he talked about the last failed attempt
[00:17:30] which was an attempt to sabotage the train
[00:17:33] that he was travelling in
[00:17:35] on the ghat section towards Pune
[00:17:38] and he mentioned that
[00:17:39] and he said, you know
[00:17:40] people have been continuously trying to murder me
[00:17:43] and I have escaped by the grace of God
[00:17:45] and then he in his light flippant manner
[00:17:48] he says, you know
[00:17:49] but I'd like to inform those people
[00:17:51] that I'm going to live to 125 years
[00:17:53] I'm not going to die that easily
[00:17:55] so they should not waste their effort
[00:17:57] and in response a few days later
[00:17:59] at a public meeting
[00:18:01] organized by the Hindumaa Sabha
[00:18:03] Nathuram Godse got onto the dais
[00:18:05] and he said in Marathi
[00:18:07] Gandhi meant that he was going to live
[00:18:09] for 125 years
[00:18:11] but who gives him so much space
[00:18:13] meaning, Nathuram said
[00:18:15] that Gandhi says that he proclaims
[00:18:17] that he's going to live till 125 years of age
[00:18:20] but who's going to allow him to live that long
[00:18:22] and this was one of the meetings
[00:18:25] that was mentioned by Kedkar
[00:18:27] who was Tilak's grand-nephew
[00:18:30] in Pune at the function
[00:18:32] to felicitate Karkare and Gopal Godse
[00:18:35] on their release
[00:18:37] which led to the Kapoor commission being instituted
[00:18:40] this was... Kedkar said look
[00:18:42] Nathuram as far back as 46 had mentioned
[00:18:45] that he would not allow Gandhi to live that long
[00:18:48] and so Bapu was not a fatalist
[00:18:50] but post Noa Khali and Bihar
[00:18:53] and Kalkata and Delhi
[00:18:55] he started talking about death
[00:18:57] and he started talking about the kind of death he wanted
[00:19:00] and finally just about 24 hours
[00:19:03] before his murder
[00:19:05] he told... he had a racking cough
[00:19:09] and it was very bad
[00:19:11] and he refused to take medicines for that
[00:19:14] and when he had those coughing fits
[00:19:16] he could not sleep
[00:19:18] and one of those occasions... I think it was on 28th or 29th of January 1948
[00:19:23] he told Manu
[00:19:25] he says Manu if you know if I am to die by an illness
[00:19:28] even by a small boil
[00:19:30] then you must proclaim to the people
[00:19:33] that I was not a Mahatma as they believe
[00:19:36] me to be a Mahatma
[00:19:38] he said only if I die
[00:19:40] shot with a bullet
[00:19:42] and taking that bullet in my chest
[00:19:44] and as I die with the name of God
[00:19:46] without anger for my murderer
[00:19:48] then you should tell the people that no he was
[00:19:51] he lived a Mahatma and he died a Mahatma
[00:19:54] and this was very chillingly close to what actually happened
[00:19:58] at the time of his murder
[00:20:00] you were saying just 24 hours before he actually...
[00:20:02] just 24 hours before the...
[00:20:04] and this was recorded in Manu Ben's Diaries
[00:20:06] Tushar tell us about your book Let's Kill Gandhi
[00:20:08] why did you find the need to write it?
[00:20:10] as I told you Ashraf
[00:20:12] the book was my effort
[00:20:14] to expunge the venom
[00:20:17] of anger that was stored
[00:20:19] in me and was building up in me
[00:20:21] because of this continuous
[00:20:23] campaign maligning Bapu
[00:20:25] and the way it was gaining credibility
[00:20:28] amongst the youth in present day India
[00:20:31] and so I used to feel
[00:20:33] very annoyed by that
[00:20:35] and finally I came to the realization that
[00:20:37] if the lie annoyed me
[00:20:40] then it was my responsibility to tell the truth
[00:20:43] and discover the truth
[00:20:45] so my quest for the truth
[00:20:47] took me on the journey of discovering
[00:20:49] what I finally wrote in the book
[00:20:52] and the book is the...
[00:20:54] is my attempt to get rid of that poison of hatred
[00:20:57] which is in me
[00:20:59] I realized after writing the book
[00:21:01] that I didn't flush the poison out of my system
[00:21:03] I still get annoyed
[00:21:05] I still get angry about it
[00:21:07] I still get emotional
[00:21:09] when accused
[00:21:10] when Bapu is accused of being a traitor
[00:21:13] and so the book is a result of that
[00:21:16] the title is revolting
[00:21:18] many people have complained to me
[00:21:21] why have you named the book
[00:21:23] it is the banya in me
[00:21:25] who made... decided on this title
[00:21:28] because when I was writing the book
[00:21:31] the working title was Murder of a Mahatma
[00:21:33] and then when I was writing
[00:21:35] the book I came to a point where I said
[00:21:39] somewhere or the other the accused would have
[00:21:42] told one another no
[00:21:44] let's kill Gandhi
[00:21:46] and then I found the incident
[00:21:48] the Pune Railway Cafe area
[00:21:50] where Nathuram and Apte used to go to have tea and coffee
[00:21:54] in where they themselves claimed that
[00:21:57] the idea came to them
[00:21:59] and I said it must have started with this
[00:22:01] suggestion let's kill Gandhi
[00:22:03] and so I designed
[00:22:05] those were the days of DTP and Kuraldhra
[00:22:07] and I fancied myself as a graphic designer
[00:22:10] so I designed two mock-up cover pages
[00:22:13] one with the heading Murder of a Mahatma
[00:22:15] and one with let's kill Gandhi
[00:22:18] and I used to have my office in Idla at that time
[00:22:21] so in the reception area
[00:22:22] I prominently displayed these two illustrations
[00:22:26] and I noticed that
[00:22:28] 9 out of 10 people who came into the office
[00:22:32] instinctively picked up the cover page
[00:22:35] let's kill Gandhi
[00:22:37] and only one out of those 10 would look at
[00:22:40] Murder of the Mahatma
[00:22:41] and I said this will be the same reaction in a book shop
[00:22:44] to my book
[00:22:45] so I said there is potential to make money
[00:22:48] and so that
[00:22:50] and I was proved right
[00:22:52] my book was a best seller for a short while
[00:22:55] on the Indian list
[00:22:57] it's done 4 reprints
[00:22:59] and now it's going into a re-edited reprint
[00:23:02] So tell us about the process of writing it
[00:23:04] what kind of research went to it
[00:23:06] how long, what were your sources
[00:23:08] 4 years of research and writing
[00:23:11] but I must also admit the fact
[00:23:14] that when I embarked on this journey
[00:23:17] I was stonewalled
[00:23:18] because the official secret act
[00:23:21] was still in place
[00:23:22] and a lot of documents were classified
[00:23:24] as top secret and denied access to
[00:23:27] the right to information bill had not been
[00:23:30] made law as yet
[00:23:32] it was still being debated in India
[00:23:34] so I was stonewalled at many points of reference
[00:23:38] but after I decided to embark on this journey
[00:23:41] a lot of evidence and records just stumbled into
[00:23:45] my lab
[00:23:46] somebody would send me a magazine
[00:23:49] I remember there was a very senior journalist called
[00:23:52] Badhur Veluri
[00:23:54] he used to, I think he was
[00:23:57] associated with business standard
[00:23:59] or one of those business magazines
[00:24:01] very highly thought of
[00:24:03] he died at a young age
[00:24:05] and his mother in his memory
[00:24:08] decided to hold an annual lecture
[00:24:11] by eminent people
[00:24:13] and once I was invited to a lecture
[00:24:15] and she presented me with a book
[00:24:18] of interviews published in the book form
[00:24:20] Gadan by Madhur Veluri
[00:24:22] and as I was reading that book
[00:24:24] I came across his interview of Madanlal Pahawa
[00:24:28] post his release
[00:24:29] and his interview of Parchure in Gwalior
[00:24:32] just before his death
[00:24:34] and so I got information like that
[00:24:36] then one day I got some other publication
[00:24:39] which had an interview with Manuban
[00:24:42] where she narrates the incident of 30th
[00:24:44] the afternoon of 30th
[00:24:46] and things like that
[00:24:47] so a lot of it fell in
[00:24:49] I got two books which were
[00:24:51] mortgalled and put away in Manibavan
[00:24:54] when they took it out
[00:24:55] after denying that their books were there
[00:24:57] when they took them out
[00:24:58] the cloth bundle in which it was wrapped
[00:25:00] while opening it
[00:25:02] one of the Astama patients got an attack
[00:25:05] there was so much dust on it
[00:25:07] two decades of dust
[00:25:09] the books hadn't been opened
[00:25:10] the library and didn't even know they existed
[00:25:12] till my persistence got it
[00:25:14] and the two books was
[00:25:16] a day to day record of the Redford trial
[00:25:19] and the police investigations called
[00:25:21] Gandhi Hathya Ka
[00:25:22] and the other was
[00:25:24] English version of the day to day
[00:25:27] proceedings of the Redford trial
[00:25:30] it was called the Redford trial
[00:25:31] nobody had even bothered to look for them
[00:25:33] and suddenly I got access to them
[00:25:35] and most of my writings about the trial
[00:25:39] and the police investigations are based
[00:25:41] on those books
[00:25:42] so a lot of the material fell into my lap also
[00:25:45] I don't know who instigated that
[00:25:48] but circumstances so happened that I kept stumbling
[00:25:51] because I'm not a trained researcher
[00:25:53] I'm not a disciplined researcher either
[00:25:55] I'm not going to go around trying to
[00:25:58] get substantiation for something
[00:26:00] that has been told to me
[00:26:01] if somebody tells it to me in good faith
[00:26:03] I'll say that this is the person
[00:26:05] who told me this in good faith
[00:26:07] I have not bothered to ascertain its facts
[00:26:10] but this is what I'm going to write about
[00:26:12] you want to believe me believe me
[00:26:13] you don't want to believe me don't believe me
[00:26:15] so I'm not a disciplined researcher
[00:26:17] but the people questioned
[00:26:19] especially Gandhi experts questioned
[00:26:22] why I had to write a book
[00:26:23] when I had nothing new to tell anybody
[00:26:26] because to those Gandhi scholars
[00:26:28] they would have known all these things
[00:26:29] they had done the studies and things
[00:26:31] so they always ridiculed my book
[00:26:33] and said what a waste of time
[00:26:35] why did they have to write it
[00:26:37] if he didn't have anything new to say
[00:26:39] I'm not a conspiracy theorist
[00:26:41] who's going to think up or dream up
[00:26:43] an imaginary bullet
[00:26:45] or a fourth gunman
[00:26:47] or things like that
[00:26:48] I was just writing a report
[00:26:50] and what I ended up doing
[00:26:52] was what was dispersed
[00:26:54] over 10,000 documents
[00:26:56] has now been all gathered together
[00:26:58] and culled into one book
[00:27:00] and that is the surprising aspect
[00:27:02] of my book for readers
[00:27:04] when they read it they say oh my god
[00:27:06] why were we never told about it
[00:27:08] various narratives have come together
[00:27:09] to tell one story
[00:27:10] was it as you wrote it
[00:27:11] was it a very emotional process
[00:27:13] because obviously it's also a personal
[00:27:15] it was an emotional thing
[00:27:18] and it was like a verbal diarrhea
[00:27:20] when I finished writing the book
[00:27:23] the manuscript was 2000 pages
[00:27:25] I don't envy your editors sir
[00:27:27] my editors I think what they did
[00:27:29] was beyond certain number of pages
[00:27:31] they just discarded everything else
[00:27:33] and they brought it down
[00:27:35] to the initial volume was 900 pages
[00:27:38] and in the re-edit although I have added information
[00:27:41] I have managed to bring it down to less than 5 hours
[00:27:44] so you know with the loss of weight
[00:27:47] there is a loss of intellect also
[00:27:49] the book has shrunk also
[00:27:51] I am not so sure
[00:27:53] you normally feel better after losing weight
[00:27:55] but Sushal I am going to come down to the
[00:27:58] perhaps the two most important questions of the day
[00:28:01] perhaps the reason we are doing these episodes
[00:28:04] in the first place
[00:28:05] why is Gandhi relevant today?
[00:28:08] the most important reason is we are hurtling down
[00:28:11] into the abyss of hatred
[00:28:13] as we were hurtling down into the abyss of hatred
[00:28:16] pre-1948
[00:28:18] from if you look at it from
[00:28:20] 45 to 47
[00:28:22] India was an inferno of hatred
[00:28:26] you know on the verge of reducing itself to ashes
[00:28:29] and it was Gandhi's sacrifice that saved
[00:28:32] that infant state and helped it
[00:28:35] get onto its feet
[00:28:36] we are again, once again hurtling down into
[00:28:39] that abyss of hatred
[00:28:41] even when I wrote this book
[00:28:43] I have written about it in 2007
[00:28:46] but in 2020 the inferno is out of control
[00:28:50] till then in the 90s
[00:28:53] and early 2000s
[00:28:55] the fires were in the distance
[00:28:57] now those fires have entered our homes
[00:28:59] it consumes every individual
[00:29:02] and unfortunately for India today
[00:29:05] we don't have a Gandhi who can sacrifice himself to save us
[00:29:09] and so the only safeguard against this
[00:29:12] it is the reminder of the memory of that period
[00:29:17] and that is why I feel Gandhi is most relevant
[00:29:21] because they killed the man
[00:29:23] but even they realize that they have not been able
[00:29:26] to kill the thought of Gandhi
[00:29:28] the ideology of Gandhi
[00:29:30] the place in people's hearts
[00:29:33] I see that when I go out into the country
[00:29:36] when I go and meet the real Indians
[00:29:39] the absolute downtrodden
[00:29:41] and when they come to know who I am
[00:29:43] who is descendant I am
[00:29:45] you know the greeting I get most often is
[00:29:49] your blood is pure
[00:29:52] doesn't matter what kind of a low life I am
[00:29:55] but my blood is divine
[00:29:58] that is the belief
[00:29:59] and I believe that as long as that belief exists
[00:30:02] if we rekindle the thought of that man
[00:30:05] maybe it will save India
[00:30:08] otherwise hope is lost for India
[00:30:10] Tushar, for my generation even
[00:30:13] and I am a child of the 70s, the mid 70s
[00:30:15] for my generation even Gandhi is integral
[00:30:18] to the idea of India itself
[00:30:20] but for many young people today
[00:30:23] he is merely a distant figure of history
[00:30:27] what would you tell young people about
[00:30:30] why Gandhi is relevant today?
[00:30:32] the one reason that I would point out
[00:30:35] immediately is the need
[00:30:37] for coining a new identity to India
[00:30:40] why what do you think was the reason
[00:30:42] to start calling this India a new India
[00:30:45] because the old India is so inexorably
[00:30:48] linked with Gandhi
[00:30:50] and unless you establish a new identity
[00:30:52] you can't divest the association with Gandhi
[00:30:56] and that is where the relevance comes in
[00:30:58] the people who absolutely hate Gandhi
[00:31:02] who are in power today
[00:31:04] who pretend that they adore and worship him
[00:31:07] they are so troubled by that legacy of that man
[00:31:10] that obstinate old man that Khadus
[00:31:13] that they can't live with him at all
[00:31:16] and so they have to create a new version
[00:31:19] of the India and I want to prevent that new India
[00:31:22] even if I am the only man who rejects that new India
[00:31:26] I will keep rejecting that new India
[00:31:28] because that new India is not the India
[00:31:31] that was envisioned by the founders of this nation
[00:31:36] and we have to be loyal to the vision
[00:31:38] of the founders of this nation
[00:31:40] and that is where Gandhi becomes relevant
[00:31:42] because it was his ideals
[00:31:44] his ideology which was in the foundation
[00:31:47] of this nation
[00:31:49] no matter, no other
[00:31:50] I don't really want to talk about any of the other
[00:31:53] philosophical things
[00:31:54] the mere existence of India
[00:31:57] and India where in a period of crisis
[00:32:00] you see people even today left hopeless
[00:32:05] left without support
[00:32:07] running away for their lives to live
[00:32:09] because the rest of the Indian society
[00:32:12] doesn't care for them
[00:32:14] in India that is becoming more and more
[00:32:18] or less and less compassionate
[00:32:21] how do we save the soul of India
[00:32:24] or will it be a purchasable commodity also
[00:32:28] like everything else
[00:32:29] like the new iPhone
[00:32:31] will the idea of India also have every year
[00:32:34] new model which will be subscribed to
[00:32:36] and which will be sold at premium to everybody
[00:32:39] or will it be a cherished ideal
[00:32:42] that lives in our heart beat
[00:32:45] and if that is important then Gandhi is unavoidable
[00:32:48] that's what I believe
[00:32:49] and when you look at the young people today
[00:32:51] your children, my children
[00:32:53] I am talking about 18 year olds, 20 year olds, 25 year olds
[00:32:57] essentially the future of this country
[00:32:59] do you see hope?
[00:33:01] Ashraf if I have learnt anything from the legacy I have inherited
[00:33:05] is never to give up hope
[00:33:07] no matter how hopeless it feels
[00:33:09] I am the guy who always sees the proverbial light
[00:33:13] at the end of the tunnel
[00:33:15] even if it doesn't exist
[00:33:17] I like to believe it
[00:33:18] and because I think that only that belief will enable me to
[00:33:23] navigate or negotiate that dark tunnel
[00:33:26] so I never give up hope
[00:33:28] and I believe that we rather
[00:33:31] inconsiderately dismiss the youth today
[00:33:35] we are not really that irresponsible
[00:33:38] or uncaring or unknowing
[00:33:40] absolutely I couldn't agree
[00:33:41] and so where there is that kind of compassion
[00:33:45] it is our duty to encourage that compassion
[00:33:48] to become dominant
[00:33:50] and so I refuse to give up hope
[00:33:52] thanks Tushar
[00:33:53] researching this series was among the most moving
[00:33:55] and soul-stirring experiences of my life
[00:33:58] and that's no exaggeration
[00:33:59] thank you for taking us on this journey
[00:34:01] to help us understand one of the key events
[00:34:04] that have shaped India's history
[00:34:06] if you would know not just such my new details of Gandhi's killing
[00:34:10] but also have such a deep understanding of the implications
[00:34:13] thank you from the bottom of my heart
[00:34:15] and thank you all for listening
[00:34:18] I hope this very special All Indians Matter series
[00:34:20] opened your eyes to a key event in post-independence India
[00:34:24] and how it impacts us even today
[00:34:27] please visit www.allindiansmatter.in
[00:34:30] that's A-W-L-I-N-D-I-A-N-S-M-A-W-T-E-R.IN
[00:34:34] for more columns and audio podcasts
[00:34:37] you can follow me on Twitter
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[00:34:42] and All Indians Count that's A-W-L-I-N-D-I-A-N-S-C-O-U-N-T
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[00:34:53] write to me at editor at allindiansmatter.in
[00:34:56] catch you again soon