Big dreams aren’t only for big people.
Whether you're a dorm developer, a novice founder, or an unyielding growth hacker employing growth hacking strategies and techniques, you've found the perfect spot. In this pivotal episode, we feature Meenank Minnu – the former Head of Marketing at Pitchground – to guide you through the most effective growth hacking techniques for early-stage startups.
We discuss with Meenank topics such as determining your marketing mix, deciphering SaaS pricing, comparing performance vs. brand marketing for bootstrapped startups in terms of growth hacking for SaaS, validating a product idea using marketing to build brand trust on a budget, approaching an annual marketing budget of $0.0 (growth hacking 101), and more.
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00:00:05
Saikat Pyne: Hi. I'm Sekar marketer, creative and media nerd. Welcome to
00:00:10
Saikat Pyne: the you incorporated podcast On this show, I catch up
00:00:15
Saikat Pyne: with some of the most bad ass founders, business leaders
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Saikat Pyne: and content creators in the whole wide world. Whether you're
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Saikat Pyne: a marketer, creative or a budding founder, if you want
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Saikat Pyne: to build your brand your voice your way, you are
00:00:31
Saikat Pyne: in the right place.
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Saikat Pyne: Join me on the you incorporated podcast and start building
00:00:36
Saikat Pyne: your empire. Here we go.
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Saikat Pyne: Please join me in welcoming Minna Minu, the former head
00:00:53
Saikat Pyne: of marketing of pitch ground as marketplace for upcoming sad
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Saikat Pyne: startups from around the world.
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Saikat Pyne: Minna is currently leading growth marketing at Virina Live and
00:01:06
Saikat Pyne: also helps SAS companies grow through organic marketing efforts. He
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Saikat Pyne: also happens to be a very dear friend, and we
00:01:15
Saikat Pyne: are truly excited to have him on the show. Welcome
00:01:18
Saikat Pyne: to the show, Minna.
00:01:20
Meenank Minnu: Thank you so much for inviting me as a guest.
00:01:23
Saikat Pyne: This is just a chat between two friends about all
00:01:27
Saikat Pyne: things SAS marketing. We are going to speak about a
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Saikat Pyne: hypothetical scenario of a rookie, a startup founder and how
00:01:38
Saikat Pyne: he or she should go about not wasting a tonne
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Saikat Pyne: of money in marketing that doesn't drive business for their brand.
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Meenank Minnu: Yes, let's do it
00:01:47
Saikat Pyne: as a marketer who's helped multiple upcoming SAS companies. How
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Saikat Pyne: do you recommend startups go about figuring out their target
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Saikat Pyne: audience and not just be sold on it from day one?
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Meenank Minnu: Absolutely. That's a very good question, and this is actually
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Meenank Minnu: what we are doing live at via live. We are
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Meenank Minnu: experimenting with three different types of target audience.
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Meenank Minnu: Why? Because we want to see which which to which
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Meenank Minnu: target audience. This fits the best. We are not like, OK,
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Meenank Minnu: we're not fixated on one particular audience and just going
00:02:22
Meenank Minnu: blindly on it. So we're testing out different sorts of
00:02:25
Meenank Minnu: audience because what happens was initially we thought of one audience.
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Meenank Minnu: We went through that audience and we realised that the
00:02:34
Meenank Minnu: that particular audience is like solution. We don't think this
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Meenank Minnu: is a problem for us,
00:02:42
Meenank Minnu: and we were like, OK, a lot of these audiences
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Meenank Minnu: are like they're not even realising that this is a
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Meenank Minnu: problem for them now. As a startup, I don't want
00:02:50
Meenank Minnu: to go and educate them about the problem.
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Meenank Minnu: I don't have that much time as a startup if
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Meenank Minnu: you have a problem, we'll provide the solution. That should
00:03:00
Meenank Minnu: be the main thing. I don't have to educate you
00:03:02
Meenank Minnu: about the problem. I don't have to. I am again
00:03:05
Meenank Minnu: send you the solution. So it should of just finding
00:03:09
Meenank Minnu: our receipt of just fixating on one particular type of audience.
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Meenank Minnu: I think marketing is all about experimentation, and I'm gonna
00:03:17
Meenank Minnu: be reiterating this throughout this podcast, and I would say
00:03:20
Meenank Minnu: that
00:03:21
Meenank Minnu: just experiment on different sorts of audience, conduct your test,
00:03:25
Meenank Minnu: give it time, initially, write down two or three different
00:03:28
Meenank Minnu: sorts of audience and and try out reaching them first. Yes,
00:03:33
Meenank Minnu: outreach really, really works,
00:03:35
Meenank Minnu: and if not outreach, you can also run ads on them.
00:03:39
Meenank Minnu: That's another thing that you can do.
00:03:42
Meenank Minnu: But don't fix it on this particular type of audience.
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Meenank Minnu: See who which messaging converts better to which kind of audience.
00:03:48
Meenank Minnu: And that may be the best thing that you can do. Why?
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Meenank Minnu: Because once you find out OK, audience B is giving
00:03:56
Meenank Minnu: me more response or audience A. Then you can put
00:04:00
Meenank Minnu: all your efforts of your minute marketing team that you have,
00:04:04
Meenank Minnu: since it's just a small startup who's just starting out
00:04:08
Meenank Minnu: to focus more on this particular type of audience, I
00:04:10
Meenank Minnu: would say
00:04:11
Meenank Minnu: this would be the way to go. Figuring
00:04:14
Saikat Pyne: out marketing Channel mix is also a very stressful exercise, Right,
00:04:19
Saikat Pyne: because you don't have the luxury of learning by trial
00:04:23
Saikat Pyne: and error, you'd have to get it right, and you
00:04:26
Saikat Pyne: would ideally have to get it right with a very
00:04:28
Saikat Pyne: slim margin of error. So how do you recommend these
00:04:32
Saikat Pyne: startups that are going to be forever bootstrapped up with
00:04:36
Saikat Pyne: the channel that works for them?
00:04:39
Meenank Minnu: Very good person. Once again and as a market place,
00:04:43
Meenank Minnu: I'll be really candled with you. We are very quick
00:04:46
Meenank Minnu: to jump on her Facebook instagram telling if a community
00:04:54
Meenank Minnu: and all that stuff. But
00:04:58
Meenank Minnu: there is a as I'm a g t marketer. There
00:05:02
Meenank Minnu: are exactly six steps for a proper go to market plan,
00:05:08
Meenank Minnu: and the sixth step is the channel mix.
00:05:12
Meenank Minnu: Now, before the visuals this channel makes, there are five
00:05:16
Meenank Minnu: steps that you need to go through first step being
00:05:18
Meenank Minnu: figuring out the market and the problem. And what exactly
00:05:22
Meenank Minnu: are they making up and finding out? OK, problem here.
00:05:24
Meenank Minnu: Me second step is why do they have this problem
00:05:29
Meenank Minnu: and we can also say that they can also reit
00:05:32
Meenank Minnu: it by saying it Like what? Ex? What trends are
00:05:35
Meenank Minnu: exactly driving this problem?
00:05:38
Meenank Minnu: The competition. The competition gets the so then you do
00:05:44
Meenank Minnu: the messaging. That
00:05:46
Meenank Minnu: and once you figure out almost and then comes the
00:05:50
Meenank Minnu: channel
00:05:55
Meenank Minnu: Facebook Instagram getting mail,
00:05:59
Meenank Minnu: Figure out this entire business car and decide what to
00:06:05
Meenank Minnu: a market. What is a pollution water in the country?
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Meenank Minnu: It does.
00:06:09
Meenank Minnu: And then what is the message? You what exact message
00:06:12
Meenank Minnu: are you trying to convey? And then you can figure
00:06:14
Meenank Minnu: out the channels and what you wanna do and et cetera,
00:06:17
Meenank Minnu: so
00:06:18
Meenank Minnu: the channel mix would be the like back. But if
00:06:22
Meenank Minnu: you really want me to build a car channel, But
00:06:24
Meenank Minnu: by the way, yeah, Channel, I would say is first step.
00:06:29
Meenank Minnu: I would say go with YouTube.
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Meenank Minnu: Why? Because YouTube is easy to rank compared to Google.
00:06:36
Meenank Minnu: Google takes six months to one year to see results.
00:06:40
Meenank Minnu: With YouTube, you can see results you can
00:06:43
Meenank Minnu: in three months, Max.
00:06:45
Meenank Minnu: You see you start seeing people coming up and et cetera.
00:06:48
Meenank Minnu: It's a very nice organic channel plus videos, right? Since
00:06:52
Meenank Minnu: you're a new starter, people need trust on you. So
00:06:55
Meenank Minnu: videos is the best way to get trust. They'll see
00:06:57
Meenank Minnu: you your product, etcetera. So I would say, Start with YouTube.
00:07:02
Meenank Minnu: Start with video. You will never go wrong
00:07:05
Meenank Minnu: and figure out the rest of the channels by figuring
00:07:07
Meenank Minnu: out the go to market plan where your market is
00:07:10
Meenank Minnu: hanging out where your audience is hanging out, et cetera.
00:07:13
Meenank Minnu: Could
00:07:13
Saikat Pyne: you whip an exercise and an example? Walk our listeners
00:07:18
Saikat Pyne: through how you would go about doing something like this?
00:07:22
Saikat Pyne: Let me give you an imaginary startup ticket. I am
00:07:26
Saikat Pyne: trying to build a
00:07:29
Saikat Pyne: micro a solution in the media domain. Let's say something
00:07:35
Saikat Pyne: around some something that is, that that I presume, is
00:07:38
Saikat Pyne: likely to target content creators and solos.
00:07:43
Saikat Pyne: This is now. You tell me, How can I go
00:07:46
Saikat Pyne: about figuring out my channel mix
00:07:49
Meenank Minnu: The very first six steps that we're gonna go through
00:07:52
Meenank Minnu: First step is figuring out the market, as you said,
00:07:56
Meenank Minnu: solo preneurs and content creators. Now that is not just
00:08:01
Meenank Minnu: called figuring out the market, you cannot move to the
00:08:04
Meenank Minnu: next step. What you need to understand is what is
00:08:07
Meenank Minnu: the main create problem
00:08:11
Meenank Minnu: that your priority is going to sell. So these content
00:08:14
Meenank Minnu: creators and solar pris, et cetera. In the core problem,
00:08:17
Meenank Minnu: you have to write it down somewhere. You have to
00:08:20
Meenank Minnu: know it, because when you say this core problems to
00:08:24
Meenank Minnu: these guys content creators or so as a startup owner
00:08:28
Meenank Minnu: you're gonna have you're gonna talk a lot with them
00:08:31
Meenank Minnu: in the upcoming those months,
00:08:33
Meenank Minnu: et cetera, because you're going to sell them your product.
00:08:36
Meenank Minnu: You when you re trade this important problem to them,
00:08:40
Meenank Minnu: they should be. He probably you should be able to
00:08:43
Meenank Minnu: get the conversation in his head. Yeah, he understands the problem,
00:08:47
Meenank Minnu: so that can That is the problem. Statement to Muki.
00:08:50
Meenank Minnu: I important tomorrow market. But most important problem.
00:08:56
Meenank Minnu: That's one thing. Second thing are we? We need to
00:08:59
Meenank Minnu: solve this urgently. This problem,
00:09:02
Meenank Minnu: if not again, come back. What is the main problem?
00:09:05
Meenank Minnu: That they're willing to solve it urgently,
00:09:09
Meenank Minnu: And that is where you are going to cigar up
00:09:12
Meenank Minnu: the market
00:09:15
Meenank Minnu: on a particular problem for a year,
00:09:20
Meenank Minnu: and the second stop would be to figure it out.
00:09:23
Meenank Minnu: It's a beautiful book, one of the best books I've
00:09:24
Meenank Minnu: read so far, especially every marketer should read, too.
00:09:29
Meenank Minnu: Why do we struggle exist in the very first place?
00:09:32
Meenank Minnu: Is it because the tech of these, because lack of
00:09:37
Meenank Minnu: technology or whatever it is, why do this problem even
00:09:40
Meenank Minnu: exist in the first place? First step again. Coming back
00:09:43
Meenank Minnu: to the bigger outline. First step is figuring out the
00:09:46
Meenank Minnu: market make important problem and most urgent problem.
00:09:50
Meenank Minnu: Second step. I'm writing on the statement and everything. Second
00:09:53
Meenank Minnu: step was figuring out the why, Adam, Why figure out
00:09:58
Meenank Minnu: right? So why do this problem exist? Is a very
00:10:02
Meenank Minnu: first question that you need to ask why we even
00:10:04
Meenank Minnu: existing in the very first place. Is it because people
00:10:07
Meenank Minnu: want to involve traffic people? Exactly. You're gonna say they
00:10:10
Meenank Minnu: heard a lot of things just for this. One question.
00:10:14
Meenank Minnu: This will allow you to think of the features that
00:10:16
Meenank Minnu: you wanna build, et cetera, et cetera.
00:10:18
Meenank Minnu: Then next important question is,
00:10:22
Meenank Minnu: what's the Big Mac trend that is creating this opportunity
00:10:26
Meenank Minnu: for you? For example, Let's you know, taking your product
00:10:29
Meenank Minnu: on you since you said it's creative and solos, I'm
00:10:32
Meenank Minnu: assuming let's can see vaguely see, since I don't know
00:10:35
Meenank Minnu: anything about your products, it's like a new small product.
00:10:39
Meenank Minnu: I can vaguely say that the macro trend is the
00:10:42
Meenank Minnu: emerging creator economy,
00:10:44
Meenank Minnu: right? That is creating this opportunity for your startup or
00:10:48
Meenank Minnu: your for your Microsoft.
00:10:50
Meenank Minnu: Cool.
00:10:52
Meenank Minnu: So you need to understand what the trend is, because
00:10:54
Meenank Minnu: what happens is if you trend temporarily or receive million
00:10:59
Meenank Minnu: and then you start up will also get affected, right?
00:11:04
Meenank Minnu: No one thinks on this similar with every crypto startup
00:11:09
Meenank Minnu: startup at then.
00:11:13
Meenank Minnu: Hm.
00:11:24
Meenank Minnu: That's because these guys haven't really figured out key. What's
00:11:28
Meenank Minnu: the big macro trend that's creating this opportunity for them?
00:11:31
Meenank Minnu: This one question is so powerful. Many startups don't even
00:11:34
Meenank Minnu: figure this out. Every everyone in the marketing team, et cetera,
00:11:37
Meenank Minnu: everyone in the company should actually know. What is this
00:11:39
Meenank Minnu: basically
00:11:41
Meenank Minnu: you like?
00:11:43
Meenank Minnu: Yeah, Oh yeah. Why? We completed finding out a market.
00:11:46
Meenank Minnu: We completed the white.
00:11:48
Meenank Minnu: The third step is position
00:11:51
Meenank Minnu: positioning me. Let's take a graph. Let's imagine there's a
00:11:55
Meenank Minnu: graph out there.
00:11:57
Meenank Minnu: Graph starting left side with zero right side me 100
00:12:02
Meenank Minnu: Let's say, Well, let's take that zero M and no,
00:12:05
Meenank Minnu: let's assume that the right side premium left side at
00:12:09
Meenank Minnu: the Bottommost left part is the low cast and at
00:12:13
Meenank Minnu: the Bottommost right part is the
00:12:16
Meenank Minnu: high cost beer or anything?
00:12:18
Meenank Minnu: So where exactly do you want to put this product in?
00:12:21
Meenank Minnu: You want to put it at the low cost segment,
00:12:23
Meenank Minnu: which is under $50. You want to go with the
00:12:26
Meenank Minnu: higher cost segment,
00:12:28
Meenank Minnu: and you have to figure out yet more competitive in
00:12:32
Meenank Minnu: Segment Me is graphic.
00:12:34
Meenank Minnu: Mm.
00:12:36
Meenank Minnu: That is important. So basic that is, when you know
00:12:38
Meenank Minnu: their positioning. For example, you can know this as OK.
00:12:42
Meenank Minnu: I'm my target audience is only the small business et cetera.
00:12:46
Meenank Minnu: Since you said this word three type of audience may
00:12:50
Meenank Minnu: divide First is small, medium size business under $50 ticket size.
00:12:55
Meenank Minnu: Second one is the mid market, and the third one is,
00:12:58
Meenank Minnu: of course, enterprise. Hack.
00:13:02
Meenank Minnu: Now what you said. Microsoft usually small business market Microsft,
00:13:06
Meenank Minnu: usually low cost.
00:13:08
Meenank Minnu: Now you've created a familiarity con con
00:13:12
Meenank Minnu: because now you need to be temping. At the moment,
00:13:17
Meenank Minnu: everyone is going to get
00:13:19
Meenank Minnu: it's like we will. People will compare this with top quality.
00:13:24
Meenank Minnu: What do you call the top quality? The highway price startups.
00:13:27
Meenank Minnu: Higher price competitors.
00:13:30
Meenank Minnu: It's as a founder. It's very easy to compare your
00:13:33
Meenank Minnu: with a higher price. SAS and wonder drink Key features
00:13:36
Meenank Minnu: may mix and et cetera, et cetera, but you're not
00:13:41
Meenank Minnu: even going there, right? Your target is small, medium size
00:13:44
Meenank Minnu: business under this thing. Why are you even looking at
00:13:47
Meenank Minnu: the higher price thing?
00:13:49
Meenank Minnu: It's simple, to put it in simple. A simple, a
00:13:51
Meenank Minnu: simple example. M. I B iPhone does now
00:14:02
Meenank Minnu: to
00:14:07
Meenank Minnu: iPhone iPhone. Simple, simple. With the also, you have to
00:14:15
Meenank Minnu: compare yourself with other low cost products and not the
00:14:17
Meenank Minnu: high cost products, because that's the arena that you're playing
00:14:20
Meenank Minnu: in
00:14:22
Meenank Minnu: so you will get positioning.
00:14:25
Meenank Minnu: Which brings me to the next step competition, since we
00:14:28
Meenank Minnu: are already talking about competition, where competition for to make
00:14:32
Meenank Minnu: low cost competition, get prices for De
00:14:36
Meenank Minnu: and then competition take gaps credit.
00:14:42
Meenank Minnu: Which gap are they not able to fill? Because they may,
00:14:45
Meenank Minnu: because these startups want to solve everything, but they will. 100%
00:14:49
Meenank Minnu: have certain gaps. Let's take, for example, a any tech
00:14:52
Meenank Minnu: started with the ambition of Let's change the education system
00:14:55
Meenank Minnu: ganta simple. So basically find the gaps in the competition
00:15:02
Meenank Minnu: and up we become readers. Step one market Step two,
00:15:05
Meenank Minnu: Which is the figuring out the why Step three positioning
00:15:08
Meenank Minnu: steps four competition and finding out their gaps, pricing and
00:15:11
Meenank Minnu: et cetera. Now you know how to price yourself. Now
00:15:15
Meenank Minnu: you know which segment and who to compare yourself with
00:15:19
Meenank Minnu: Now you know why. Who's your audience and what is
00:15:21
Meenank Minnu: the most empathic, trusting problem that you're going to solve
00:15:25
Meenank Minnu: Now we want to know, Why does this problem exist?
00:15:27
Meenank Minnu: And what is the Big Mac trend that's creating this
00:15:29
Meenank Minnu: opportunity for you?
00:15:31
Meenank Minnu: And the final step before the channel is starting
00:15:35
Meenank Minnu: is messaging.
00:15:38
Meenank Minnu: As I said before my major conversation, we have to
00:15:42
Meenank Minnu: target that conversation. Why is the conversation the biggest problem
00:15:46
Meenank Minnu: that they're facing now? Online messaging? Will you be related
00:15:49
Meenank Minnu: to solving the most important problem that they're facing?
00:15:55
Meenank Minnu: Right? How is that?
00:15:58
Meenank Minnu: So your website copies to your social media images to
00:16:04
Meenank Minnu: your ads to everything would be on the most important
00:16:07
Meenank Minnu: problem that they're facing.
00:16:09
Meenank Minnu: That is where you convey your value proposition. That is
00:16:12
Meenank Minnu: where you will actually create your strategic narrative, your website
00:16:15
Meenank Minnu: and every single thing.
00:16:17
Meenank Minnu: This is now about top six, which channels
00:16:22
Meenank Minnu: based on all lists. Now you know everything about your
00:16:25
Meenank Minnu: audience of your channels. Now you can decide social media,
00:16:31
Meenank Minnu: you have a et cetera. Simple. This is how you
00:16:37
Meenank Minnu: actually figure out a proper go to market strategy.
00:16:42
Meenank Minnu: Very simple, step by step process in marketing, everything. Step
00:16:45
Meenank Minnu: by step.
00:16:46
Meenank Minnu: Yeah, go to market step by step process. If you
00:16:50
Meenank Minnu: take time with each and every single step guarantee to
00:16:53
Meenank Minnu: startup CO it not clarity. Your marketing team will love you.
00:16:58
Meenank Minnu: Anyone who's joining your team will have clarity. Key may come,
00:17:03
Meenank Minnu: and that is very important.
00:17:05
Meenank Minnu: I hope this was the satisfaction. The bottom
00:17:10
Saikat Pyne: just to be. The point there on marketing, uh, is
00:17:16
Saikat Pyne: software as a service So fundamentally SARS is a service right?
00:17:21
Saikat Pyne: It has the trappings of a product business, but it's
00:17:24
Saikat Pyne: still a service. Business and service businesses have this fundamental
00:17:29
Saikat Pyne: challenge of figuring out their pricing.
00:17:33
Saikat Pyne: If I have to go back to my example of
00:17:36
Saikat Pyne: a micro A product in the media sector targeted at
00:17:40
Saikat Pyne: creators and so preneurs or creators and marketers, and these
00:17:45
Saikat Pyne: sorts of situations where I'm targeting multiple consumer profiles, how
00:17:49
Saikat Pyne: do you figure out pricing
00:17:52
Meenank Minnu: Very good question again And what happened? I'll tell you
00:17:56
Meenank Minnu: an incident
00:17:57
Meenank Minnu: there is there. I've seen actually many startups, not just one.
00:18:02
Meenank Minnu: Multiple instances I've seen these star startups want customs.
00:18:07
Meenank Minnu: We get them 102 103 100 customers.
00:18:12
Meenank Minnu: They're like, Whoa, we are unable to handle these many customers,
00:18:17
Meenank Minnu: and that's a very bad thing to say. I just
00:18:20
Meenank Minnu: asked why? Because
00:18:23
Meenank Minnu: USA must be able to handle. It's not a commodity
00:18:26
Meenank Minnu: that you have to package ship and there's no stock
00:18:29
Meenank Minnu: in the inventory and et cetera.
00:18:32
Meenank Minnu: And after a few months, you realise, Oh, Mr charges me,
00:18:39
Meenank Minnu: he's surprising me.
00:18:41
Meenank Minnu: Yeah, this is very much I've seen that,
00:18:44
Meenank Minnu: and this suddenly bunted the pricing while having all these
00:18:47
Meenank Minnu: customers and boom John
00:18:50
Meenank Minnu: the most dreaded word for a founder, John and then
00:18:54
Meenank Minnu: John It not people are like gone. We've seen this
00:19:00
Meenank Minnu: happen with massive startups like Suite.
00:19:04
Meenank Minnu: They've increased their pricing like multiple, like 10 times and
00:19:08
Meenank Minnu: at one time, or in just one go, which is
00:19:11
Meenank Minnu: which caused massive churn.
00:19:13
Meenank Minnu: I'm sure there is a reason to that, but I've
00:19:16
Meenank Minnu: seen many startups even going bankrupt, like to shutting down
00:19:19
Meenank Minnu: the starters just because they couldn't calculate their server costs
00:19:23
Meenank Minnu: and usages and everything,
00:19:28
Meenank Minnu: um,
00:19:29
Meenank Minnu: out of her out of 10 people
00:19:32
Meenank Minnu: who will use your product?
00:19:35
Meenank Minnu: Three people are going to abuse the hell out of
00:19:38
Meenank Minnu: your product,
00:19:39
Meenank Minnu: right? A r four
00:19:42
Meenank Minnu: are there three or four will use it normally. Just
00:19:46
Meenank Minnu: a You can match a year. Other people, they'll forget.
00:19:50
Meenank Minnu: Keto subscription Bill.
00:19:52
Meenank Minnu: This is what the ideal mix up the audience that
00:19:56
Meenank Minnu: you're gonna get. I've seen this with countless sass products
00:19:59
Meenank Minnu: that are marketed at Brian.
00:20:01
Meenank Minnu: This is what is there Guarantee it
00:20:04
Meenank Minnu: three or four people guarantee abuse Horror.
00:20:08
Meenank Minnu: Now they done this sort of mixed
00:20:11
Meenank Minnu: and which we discussed the composite of
00:20:15
Meenank Minnu: You need to figure out an ideal each spot he
00:20:21
Meenank Minnu: pricing and kill and all that. Initially, you will get
00:20:24
Meenank Minnu: it wrong. Definitely.
00:20:26
Meenank Minnu: You have to agree with that. But always, even if
00:20:29
Meenank Minnu: you get it high, you can always offer discount codes.
00:20:32
Meenank Minnu: You can always use it as beta.
00:20:36
Meenank Minnu: The only way we figure out the proper pricing is
00:20:39
Meenank Minnu: by talking to these guys, not me or not hearing
00:20:42
Meenank Minnu: me or I in a podcast or somewhere. And first
00:20:49
Meenank Minnu: I said, easy ways way is to
00:20:55
Meenank Minnu: media. You start up like a
00:20:58
Meenank Minnu: you pay those other things and everything. So so questions
00:21:02
Meenank Minnu: important stuff. Competitors important stuffs
00:21:06
Meenank Minnu: you should do. And if I no you just a discount,
00:21:10
Meenank Minnu: that's all the escape. OK? Yeah, the escape. So, yes,
00:21:14
Meenank Minnu: always try to try disco below. Tacky. OK,
00:21:19
Saikat Pyne: I love that. And I think with Southeast Asian audiences
00:21:22
Saikat Pyne: that is going to fly like nobody's business. We always
00:21:25
Saikat Pyne: are looking for offers, right? So a product subscription. I
00:21:32
Saikat Pyne: spend more time researching the coupon for the product than
00:21:36
Saikat Pyne: the product itself. And I think this is such quintessential
00:21:40
Saikat Pyne: Southeast Asian behaviour. I I've had friends in Singapore that
00:21:44
Saikat Pyne: tell me the same,
00:21:46
Saikat Pyne: and they definitely make more money. So giving you a scenario,
00:21:49
Saikat Pyne: let's say there are four other
00:21:52
Saikat Pyne: competitors in a niche. OK, nice one has priced their
00:21:57
Saikat Pyne: product at $300 a month. One has priced at $100
00:22:01
Saikat Pyne: a month. One has priced at $50 a month.
00:22:05
Saikat Pyne: How do you then go about figuring out And let's
00:22:10
Saikat Pyne: say after so cost blah blah. You figure out you
00:22:12
Saikat Pyne: can the lowest you can. Price is $20 a month
00:22:15
Saikat Pyne: and still make a decent profit.
00:22:17
Saikat Pyne: Should you go ahead and price it at $20 a
00:22:19
Saikat Pyne: month and leave the rest on the table or given
00:22:24
Saikat Pyne: that there is somebody at $50. Still, should you maybe
00:22:27
Saikat Pyne: price it at $40 give a bit of a discount
00:22:30
Saikat Pyne: and eventually close it at $30 and still make $10
00:22:35
Saikat Pyne: a month more? How would you suggest you go about
00:22:37
Saikat Pyne: pricing these sorts of sectors
00:22:39
Meenank Minnu: very simple again comes back to the positioning part.
00:22:43
Meenank Minnu: Three important audience in SAS small business, Mid Market and Enterprise.
00:22:48
Meenank Minnu: With $300 you are completely eliminating the small business audience
00:22:53
Meenank Minnu: that you have
00:22:54
Meenank Minnu: true
00:22:55
Meenank Minnu: and again coming back to the market. What? Who exactly
00:22:59
Meenank Minnu: is your market? Is it small business? Is it mid market,
00:23:03
Meenank Minnu: or is it enterprise? Then you can think of even
00:23:06
Meenank Minnu: pricing it 400 or 500 even 600. Also, I've seen
00:23:09
Meenank Minnu: such terms small, but once pricing is 604 50 a
00:23:16
Meenank Minnu: purchase 100 K beach I've seen. But the 601 comes
00:23:21
Meenank Minnu: with
00:23:22
Meenank Minnu: lot of things, like a manager that he help you,
00:23:26
Meenank Minnu: like you said,
00:23:28
Saikat Pyne: Basically, yeah,
00:23:30
Meenank Minnu: and after that time,
00:23:31
Meenank Minnu: because you cannot close the the self service self check
00:23:34
Meenank Minnu: out as a new 600 again figuring out exactly want
00:23:38
Meenank Minnu: to position within them like small business, mid market or enterprise,
00:23:42
Meenank Minnu: because if you are small, business is a huge chunk
00:23:46
Meenank Minnu: of audience.
00:23:47
Meenank Minnu: Easy to target to be channel may. The first one
00:23:51
Meenank Minnu: you're going to see is a small business guy.
00:23:54
Meenank Minnu: Now you price more than $100
00:23:56
Meenank Minnu: or more than $50 per se done. You have small
00:24:00
Meenank Minnu: business audiences. Are they make here. Basically imagine you have
00:24:04
Meenank Minnu: an audience size of, Let's say, 10 LAC, which is
00:24:08
Meenank Minnu: about one million, and this one million audience got cut
00:24:11
Meenank Minnu: in for 60 to 70%. Then you elect to beach Ma.
00:24:14
Meenank Minnu: You equal target. Make a room
00:24:16
Meenank Minnu: it like you call yourself a small business. Start up
00:24:19
Meenank Minnu: and again, your is not that you have to pay
00:24:24
Meenank Minnu: it out and small business air mid market enterprise, small
00:24:31
Meenank Minnu: business car, small business pricing. Otherwise, you need to work
00:24:35
Meenank Minnu: on more features
00:24:36
Meenank Minnu: to target the big market segment.
00:24:38
Saikat Pyne: I know the answer to the question, but I still
00:24:41
Saikat Pyne: ask because I'm sure at this point B rookies as
00:24:44
Saikat Pyne: founders would have this question in their mind. So if
00:24:46
Saikat Pyne: a competitor is charging $300 a month, why can't I
00:24:50
Saikat Pyne: also charge $300 a month. Why are there any products
00:24:53
Saikat Pyne: at all for whatever So preneurs and these creators and
00:24:56
Saikat Pyne: people with less money? Shouldn't I just play in the
00:24:59
Saikat Pyne: big leagues all the time and make big money? You
00:25:01
Saikat Pyne: can
00:25:01
Meenank Minnu: definitely can. If you're if you're filling out the gaps
00:25:04
Meenank Minnu: of
00:25:05
Meenank Minnu: this $300 enterprise, you definitely can. But the problem comes
00:25:10
Meenank Minnu: as the ticket size increases in SA
00:25:14
Meenank Minnu: the sales is also increasing in, not time frame
00:25:19
Meenank Minnu: right, and you close automatically close open. It's self service.
00:25:24
Meenank Minnu: They usually come. They check out the product, they find value,
00:25:27
Meenank Minnu: they buy it
00:25:29
Meenank Minnu: $300. May you have to again figure out is close
00:25:36
Meenank Minnu: Or do I have enough time to get on a
00:25:38
Meenank Minnu: call and close these deals myself?
00:25:41
Meenank Minnu: You need you. You need a fun set up basically
00:25:45
Meenank Minnu: because they are not going off and pios the $300 thing.
00:25:49
Meenank Minnu: People think 1000 times even offer paying $100 to master
00:25:55
Meenank Minnu: high trust startups like H F and M. They are
00:25:59
Meenank Minnu: super high, trustworthy startups. Still, people think 100 times to
00:26:03
Meenank Minnu: pay for this, and now you are pricing at 300
00:26:06
Meenank Minnu: call to now. If you don't have the bandwidth of
00:26:09
Meenank Minnu: calls and everything,
00:26:11
Meenank Minnu: you're just shooting in the dark, maybe 300 to. It's
00:26:14
Meenank Minnu: not going to work like that. You have to have
00:26:16
Meenank Minnu: a proper, and I'll set up proper funnels to convert
00:26:18
Meenank Minnu: these marketing. Qualified leads to sales qualified leads Beman Nurturing
00:26:24
Meenank Minnu: Can you do all those email marketing? Can you do
00:26:26
Meenank Minnu: all these sales calls? Can you nurture this audience? Can
00:26:30
Meenank Minnu: you do these follow ups? I don't think as a
00:26:33
Meenank Minnu: one or two man or a three man startup, you
00:26:36
Meenank Minnu: will be able to do all this, and that's right.
00:26:38
Meenank Minnu: $300
00:26:39
Meenank Minnu: doesn't make sense because you cannot do this. It's not sustainable,
00:26:45
Meenank Minnu: plus, also taking care of the development and the bugs
00:26:48
Meenank Minnu: and the customer support, which has to be top notch
00:26:50
Meenank Minnu: for a $300 product.
00:26:53
Meenank Minnu: It's impossible for a small founder to do that, and
00:26:56
Meenank Minnu: Microsoft $300 is as well. I want to come across
00:27:00
Meenank Minnu: any Microsoft that is also $300 so you need to
00:27:04
Meenank Minnu: feel very comfortable them just because you wanted that money here.
00:27:08
Meenank Minnu: Don't go up and just get get yourself F that
00:27:13
Meenank Minnu: you can say
00:27:15
Meenank Minnu: then
00:27:16
Meenank Minnu: and then, ultimately losing the game just because you are greedy.
00:27:21
Saikat Pyne: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a fintech person. So just to draw
00:27:25
Saikat Pyne: a parallel in banking because I think banking is one
00:27:28
Saikat Pyne: of those things. It's just so service driven. You could
00:27:31
Saikat Pyne: be a payments bank. You could be a new bank
00:27:35
Saikat Pyne: and have near zero
00:27:37
Saikat Pyne: near zero customer acquisition cost. If you already have a payments,
00:27:41
Saikat Pyne: app or whatever, or if you're trying to sell and up,
00:27:43
Saikat Pyne: sell your banking services. Even if you are somebody like
00:27:47
Saikat Pyne: a Jupiter or other new banks, you will have lower
00:27:51
Saikat Pyne: than somebody like D F C bank or imperial private banking.
00:27:55
Saikat Pyne: And not only would your
00:27:58
Saikat Pyne: customer acquisition costs be higher, your operating costs would also
00:28:02
Saikat Pyne: be higher. Right? Because if I have access to private
00:28:06
Saikat Pyne: banking and I am an h N. I, I will
00:28:08
Saikat Pyne: never log into a net banking portal ever.
00:28:12
Saikat Pyne: My ask is if I want even one c R transferred,
00:28:16
Saikat Pyne: I'll make one call, right? So it's not just about
00:28:20
Saikat Pyne: the experience within the product. It's also about the bells
00:28:23
Saikat Pyne: and whistles that come with the product that define that
00:28:25
Saikat Pyne: private and premier experience which companies are good
00:28:28
Saikat Pyne: going to and individuals are going to be looking for.
00:28:30
Saikat Pyne: If they pay a premium, it can't be a premium
00:28:33
Saikat Pyne: tag with a stripped down product, regardless of how good
00:28:37
Saikat Pyne: and experience it might be at the front end
00:28:40
Meenank Minnu: of it. And if it's a, there's a lot of
00:28:43
Meenank Minnu: factors that claim
00:28:45
Meenank Minnu: u I. U X does not figure it out if
00:28:47
Meenank Minnu: you need us and no one wants to do. Use
00:28:50
Meenank Minnu: a $300 product with a shitty U I. U X
00:28:53
Meenank Minnu: second thing, bro is a is a unique friction Now
00:28:58
Meenank Minnu: U I u X you're just figuring out the market.
00:29:02
Meenank Minnu: You illuminating fiction is basically at the last step of
00:29:05
Meenank Minnu: the U X is the experience where you are studying
00:29:08
Meenank Minnu: and everything.
00:29:10
Meenank Minnu: It it It doesn't make sense for you to just
00:29:12
Meenank Minnu: grow up suddenly have a $300. No, definitely, it doesn't
00:29:16
Meenank Minnu: make sense
00:29:17
Saikat Pyne: to coming back to the ground and speaking about seed,
00:29:21
Saikat Pyne: and you see these startups again. People were trying to
00:29:25
Saikat Pyne: create Microsoft Solutions, often with very stripped down budgets. It's
00:29:31
Saikat Pyne: a big dilemma for startup founders, but where to invest
00:29:35
Saikat Pyne: this bit of cash that they have. Sometimes even it's
00:29:38
Saikat Pyne: in the hundreds of dollars, and not even in the
00:29:40
Saikat Pyne: thousands of dollars.
00:29:41
Saikat Pyne: Do you recommend people go about investing their let's say,
00:29:45
Saikat Pyne: $500 if they want to promote their Microsoft tool? What
00:29:49
Saikat Pyne: would be the split in terms of what I call
00:29:51
Saikat Pyne: hard core marketing, which is performance marketing and the likes
00:29:55
Saikat Pyne: versus something like software marketing, which is business blogging, organic
00:29:59
Saikat Pyne: content on social media? How would you suggest people index
00:30:02
Saikat Pyne: on each of these or versus software marketing channels?
00:30:05
Meenank Minnu: I would say $500
00:30:08
Meenank Minnu: in itself is a pretty low budget to work on. Definitely,
00:30:12
Meenank Minnu: I would agree with that. And it's challenging with this.
00:30:15
Meenank Minnu: With such a low budget,
00:30:17
Meenank Minnu: it's such a low budget. I would like to invest
00:30:20
Meenank Minnu: in human,
00:30:22
Meenank Minnu: a human expert who will, you know,
00:30:27
Meenank Minnu: work on certain things for me only Help me ease things.
00:30:30
Meenank Minnu: And that's where I would like to go with the
00:30:34
Meenank Minnu: organic first approach
00:30:36
Meenank Minnu: because you might run paid act.
00:30:40
Meenank Minnu: What's gonna happen? A. A kilo bought is smarter. They
00:30:44
Meenank Minnu: would like to click on your company and read everything
00:30:47
Meenank Minnu: about you.
00:30:48
Meenank Minnu: See your posts, see your content, see your stuff and
00:30:52
Meenank Minnu: et cetera. So even if you run ads
00:30:56
Meenank Minnu: this go. This new brand is something that's trying to
00:30:59
Meenank Minnu: target me
00:31:00
Meenank Minnu: when they click on your brand. Nothing zero count doesn't
00:31:03
Meenank Minnu: make sense. They will just go away. Your ad money
00:31:06
Meenank Minnu: is wasted
00:31:07
Meenank Minnu: and people just ch people, not people just spend all
00:31:11
Meenank Minnu: their money on their ads and they just leave out stuff. Plus,
00:31:15
Meenank Minnu: you're not equipped to run ads, too, because you have
00:31:18
Meenank Minnu: other things to do as well, even if you are,
00:31:20
Meenank Minnu: even if you know how to run ads. So my
00:31:23
Meenank Minnu: best bet would be to go for a person, invest
00:31:26
Meenank Minnu: in humans.
00:31:28
Meenank Minnu: I've seen this happen in pretty big startups. Also, if
00:31:31
Meenank Minnu: I saw this basically, it was $1000 budget
00:31:37
Meenank Minnu: to grow. Just one channel on LinkedIn.
00:31:40
Meenank Minnu: Oh, wow. Yes, I saw this and this $1000 budget
00:31:44
Meenank Minnu: man just to below this one channel, this guy invested
00:31:48
Meenank Minnu: $200 in a VA.
00:31:52
Meenank Minnu: Oh, yes. And this No. One, No. Everyone thinks that
00:31:56
Meenank Minnu: Who is darling auto in me?
00:32:00
Meenank Minnu: Because good marketers, good founders know that there's a certain
00:32:04
Meenank Minnu: set of marketing that you cannot automate, which is engaging
00:32:08
Meenank Minnu: with your customers engaging with your potential customers. True.
00:32:13
Meenank Minnu: And that is when a human will be doing that.
00:32:16
Meenank Minnu: And that's why you cannot discount the human thing on
00:32:19
Meenank Minnu: humans is the very first betting I would 100% bet
00:32:22
Meenank Minnu: on humans. So this is what I would go forward with,
00:32:26
Meenank Minnu: not some et cetera, et cetera. Stuff by organic marketing people.
00:32:30
Meenank Minnu: I have a pretty decent budget to get organic marketers,
00:32:34
Meenank Minnu: you can say, especially in India, Philippines, et cetera.
00:32:38
Saikat Pyne: Lovely. OK, let's make it a bit tougher on you.
00:32:41
Saikat Pyne: The grand total marketing budget for my Microsoft solution is 00%.
00:32:50
Saikat Pyne: I have no money. I have been able to outsource
00:32:54
Saikat Pyne: the development of the product, and I put together an
00:32:57
Saikat Pyne: M V P that works. And I have created a
00:33:00
Saikat Pyne: chatbot and the support email ID to handle queries. Most
00:33:04
Saikat Pyne: of that at the back end is automated. I now
00:33:07
Saikat Pyne: want more people on my product to be able to
00:33:12
Saikat Pyne: make money,
00:33:13
Saikat Pyne: but I have no money. Whatever little money I had
00:33:16
Saikat Pyne: went into building the product and paying the U I.
00:33:19
Saikat Pyne: U X people. So with that grand budget of ₹0.00
00:33:24
Saikat Pyne: where do I start. Oh,
00:33:26
Meenank Minnu: this one stuff really, really tough because we said $500
00:33:31
Meenank Minnu: was the low this like, OK, right. All right, all right,
00:33:35
Meenank Minnu: all right. It's $0.00 rupees. Whatever you wanna call it?
00:33:40
Meenank Minnu: Mhm.
00:33:41
Meenank Minnu: I would like to go where the where my target
00:33:45
Meenank Minnu: audience is hanging out. I have to figure out where
00:33:48
Meenank Minnu: my target audience is,
00:33:50
Meenank Minnu: and I'll just go there
00:33:53
Meenank Minnu: and try to be a part of their conversation.
00:33:57
Meenank Minnu: The very best way to be among your target audience.
00:34:02
Meenank Minnu: Its number one community, not your own community,
00:34:07
Meenank Minnu: but other communities, which there are plenty. There are millions
00:34:13
Meenank Minnu: of Facebook groups out of these millions. Can't you find
00:34:17
Meenank Minnu: 25 Facebook groups
00:34:20
Meenank Minnu: that are truly good, super active, high quality people
00:34:25
Meenank Minnu: of your target audience
00:34:27
Meenank Minnu: out of millions?
00:34:29
Meenank Minnu: I'm just telling you to find 20 to 25 groups,
00:34:32
Meenank Minnu: that's all. That's basically it. What? I'm telling you to
00:34:35
Meenank Minnu: find
00:34:36
Meenank Minnu: I with these Facebook games because I've tried this before.
00:34:40
Meenank Minnu: There is this. I let me give you an example
00:34:43
Meenank Minnu: of how this worked for me before $0 marketing budget.
00:34:46
Meenank Minnu: How does a freelancer get declined?
00:34:49
Meenank Minnu: This guy is a full funnel builder expert. So he
00:34:53
Meenank Minnu: went to a marketing group. He tried sharing things about funnel,
00:34:58
Meenank Minnu: how to create landing page, how to create funnel, et cetera,
00:35:01
Meenank Minnu: et cetera.
00:35:02
Meenank Minnu: Within two weeks, he got a big client of $1000.
00:35:07
Meenank Minnu: He buy me off because you have been because you
00:35:10
Meenank Minnu: posted a consistent value.
00:35:12
Meenank Minnu: Plus, you replied to all the comments, insightful, not thanks
00:35:16
Meenank Minnu: me with an emergency or something like that, because comments
00:35:20
Meenank Minnu: may doubt me, people will last doubts. And now that
00:35:23
Meenank Minnu: Chesky ha you ma And he's posting such good content.
00:35:28
Meenank Minnu: He is also what do you call replying to all
00:35:31
Meenank Minnu: these comments and making good use of it?
00:35:34
Meenank Minnu: Uh, this this game must be knowledgeable.
00:35:37
Meenank Minnu: I have feeling out there. But now with consistency with
00:35:40
Meenank Minnu: 45 post,
00:35:42
Meenank Minnu: they know who you are. They know your knowledge.
00:35:45
Meenank Minnu: They all since then, coming back to the beginning of
00:35:47
Meenank Minnu: this podcast YouTube. They'll check out your stuff and everything,
00:35:52
Meenank Minnu: and now they contact you directly. And then when you
00:35:55
Meenank Minnu: can close this deal
00:35:57
Meenank Minnu: as oppose to what startups currently do for Facebook, Facebook
00:36:06
Meenank Minnu: group and you don't see the marketing company.
00:36:20
Meenank Minnu: This is exactly what is happening. You know, everyone is
00:36:22
Meenank Minnu: listening out. No,
00:36:24
Meenank Minnu: right. They want to do it at Don't have Facebook.
00:36:28
Meenank Minnu: Millions of Facebook. Yeah, Come on.
00:36:33
Meenank Minnu: You see my approach and you see this approach
00:36:37
Meenank Minnu: completely. Zain Asman, Karak,
00:36:40
Meenank Minnu: I've got I've rejected
00:36:44
Meenank Minnu: at least 9200 clients in the year 2019
00:36:49
Meenank Minnu: just because
00:36:52
Meenank Minnu: just because I couldn't take up more people. And how
00:36:55
Meenank Minnu: did I get this? 9200 inbound clients, all via
00:37:01
Meenank Minnu: of of posting in Facebook groups and communities in general
00:37:05
Meenank Minnu: communities Because nowadays people are expanding, People are creating communities
00:37:09
Meenank Minnu: on discard people are creating communities on slack WhatsApp groups
00:37:13
Meenank Minnu: are there nowadays. So many good ones, active ones telegram
00:37:17
Meenank Minnu: and
00:37:19
Meenank Minnu: the market is there. Your audience is hanging out somewhere.
00:37:22
Meenank Minnu: Somehow the other place just go in there. Say hi.
00:37:26
Meenank Minnu: I'm excited and provide value to them. Give out solutions
00:37:30
Meenank Minnu: to them
00:37:31
Meenank Minnu: and then they'll see who you are. Then they'll get
00:37:34
Meenank Minnu: on a chat with you. You're gonna build relationships. They're
00:37:37
Meenank Minnu: gonna talk to you. They're going to promote you. They're
00:37:40
Meenank Minnu: going to buy your product too. There's exactly the cost.
00:37:45
Meenank Minnu: This cost ₹0. Basic telegram Also you can find, say,
00:37:49
Meenank Minnu: data, et cetera. We
00:37:52
Meenank Minnu: everything is free in this. There's no money in this. Ah,
00:37:56
Meenank Minnu: this is hard. I said
00:38:01
Saikat Pyne: Yes, this was the hot seat question, But I'm going
00:38:03
Saikat Pyne: to go easy on you on this one, I think marketing.
00:38:07
Saikat Pyne: A lot of founders don't realise that marketing can also
00:38:11
Saikat Pyne: help validate a product idea, right? You don't want to
00:38:15
Saikat Pyne: be barking up the wrong tree. Sometimes there is no
00:38:19
Saikat Pyne: tree and you're just barking.
00:38:21
Saikat Pyne: And I see so many pro products out there that
00:38:25
Saikat Pyne: are solutions looking for problems
00:38:28
Saikat Pyne: and clueless about what the problem is. Can you give
00:38:32
Saikat Pyne: a bit of a blueprint for how you can validate
00:38:35
Saikat Pyne: a product idea in the initial stages with targeted marketing?
00:38:40
Meenank Minnu: So to violate a product, there are multiple things that
00:38:43
Meenank Minnu: you can do
00:38:45
Meenank Minnu: first. One is running ads minimum ads with different messaging
00:38:50
Meenank Minnu: to see which messaging is being connected to
00:38:52
Meenank Minnu: the audience.
00:38:54
Meenank Minnu: Second one is outbound
00:38:56
Meenank Minnu: outreach.
00:38:58
Meenank Minnu: Be Twitter outreach, be it LinkedIn outreach, be it anywhere.
00:39:02
Meenank Minnu: Email is picking up. Any SA guru nowadays is going
00:39:07
Meenank Minnu: to tell you about how call emailing can give you
00:39:10
Meenank Minnu: 1000 k m R R in just 20 days, 30 days,
00:39:13
Meenank Minnu: et cetera.
00:39:15
Meenank Minnu: Outreach is something that is working great, but let's not
00:39:19
Meenank Minnu: see outreach as outreach. But let's see outreach as going
00:39:24
Meenank Minnu: out there and building relationships with these people. And when
00:39:27
Meenank Minnu: you talk certain things with these people you will know
00:39:30
Meenank Minnu: may be they'll give you certain reasons. Maybe they don't
00:39:35
Meenank Minnu: even want to check out the product
00:39:37
Meenank Minnu: with every call that you get every messaging, every message
00:39:41
Meenank Minnu: that you and these guys and they respond back.
00:39:45
Meenank Minnu: You have certain key takeaways that you can look at
00:39:49
Meenank Minnu: in Twitter. They recently started a term trend called less
00:39:52
Meenank Minnu: build public. Tom, Dick and Harry is validating their idea
00:39:56
Meenank Minnu: with this building public thing all for and all you
00:40:00
Meenank Minnu: have to do is just go to, I think billion
00:40:02
Meenank Minnu: public dot com exists. But you can just search for
00:40:04
Meenank Minnu: hashtag billion public on Twitter. You'll find many founders building stuff.
00:40:09
Meenank Minnu: Now you will see some founders have good engagement. Some
00:40:12
Meenank Minnu: founders have zero engagement et cetera.
00:40:15
Meenank Minnu: Now do you think? OK,
00:40:18
Meenank Minnu: nobody. Let's say you have a good number of SOS
00:40:20
Meenank Minnu: or anything in that per se, and nobody really responded
00:40:24
Meenank Minnu: to your brilliant public thing, do you? Do you really
00:40:27
Meenank Minnu: want to pursue that idea the response. Maybe you want
00:40:31
Meenank Minnu: to figure out top two people
00:40:34
Meenank Minnu: two by two people. I recommend talking to your audience
00:40:36
Meenank Minnu: rather than talking to experts and et cetera
00:40:41
Meenank Minnu: or
00:40:43
Meenank Minnu: expert also will say the same thing. So we figure
00:40:46
Meenank Minnu: talk to 20. All you have to do is talk
00:40:49
Meenank Minnu: to 20 to 30 people, which is very easy to
00:40:51
Meenank Minnu: talk to and
00:40:53
Meenank Minnu: even let get them into the beta. If you want
00:40:56
Meenank Minnu: to under other people, then you have a pretty bad
00:40:59
Meenank Minnu: with the name like
00:41:02
Meenank Minnu: I want to maintain relationship with him.
00:41:11
Meenank Minnu: Great. So
00:41:13
Meenank Minnu: be playing the bear thing is also a very good
00:41:16
Meenank Minnu: idea to get people in and see if they're interested
00:41:20
Meenank Minnu: in or not.
00:41:22
Meenank Minnu: So that is that that is the main thing validating
00:41:26
Meenank Minnu: the M V P. If you can try to sell it,
00:41:28
Meenank Minnu: basically create a landing page and everything and try to
00:41:31
Meenank Minnu: basically sell it. If you can't sell it and you're
00:41:33
Meenank Minnu: finding it hard, then probably it is hard
00:41:37
Meenank Minnu: and no one wants that solution so
00:41:38
Saikat Pyne: that the other parallel thing that you would want to
00:41:42
Saikat Pyne: build for your brand, besides a held bottom line, is
00:41:46
Saikat Pyne: that you'd want to build the currency of trust. And
00:41:49
Saikat Pyne: as a rookie brand, How should you go about building
00:41:53
Saikat Pyne: the currency of brand trust that is going to bring
00:41:57
Saikat Pyne: recurring revenue? What are the couple of tenets you swear
00:42:01
Saikat Pyne: by when helping brands establish credibility for themselves in the
00:42:05
Meenank Minnu: market?
00:42:06
Meenank Minnu: Very good question, and I will back this up with
00:42:09
Meenank Minnu: an example as well.
00:42:11
Meenank Minnu: First step is being transparent. Now. Being transparent is a
00:42:14
Meenank Minnu: very vague answer.
00:42:16
Meenank Minnu: How transparent is the question?
00:42:19
Meenank Minnu: If you are in a field where there is ideally
00:42:24
Meenank Minnu: low trust,
00:42:26
Meenank Minnu: you have to have extra transparency. Example is crypto. Many
00:42:30
Meenank Minnu: people don't even trust it. They call it illegal. They
00:42:33
Meenank Minnu: call it scam. They call it fraud.
00:42:36
Meenank Minnu: Every second I will call it Victoria's Beast. At that moment,
00:42:42
Meenank Minnu: if you go with the approach of low transparency, no
00:42:45
Meenank Minnu: one is even going to take you seriously. You will
00:42:48
Meenank Minnu: also be called scam. In fact, he'll do a detrimental
00:42:50
Meenank Minnu: thing to your business.
00:42:52
Meenank Minnu: So
00:42:53
Meenank Minnu: first step is being transparent. How transparent is now up
00:42:57
Meenank Minnu: to you to figure out. Basically, you are comfortable with
00:43:01
Meenank Minnu: certain level of transparency
00:43:03
Meenank Minnu: who learn of transparency.
00:43:08
Meenank Minnu: You comfortable a certain step, a certain level of transparency
00:43:11
Meenank Minnu: whose transparency is example is Buffer.
00:43:16
Meenank Minnu: Baer is there which number one social media scheduling tool.
00:43:19
Meenank Minnu: You can say
00:43:21
Meenank Minnu: very first social media do that even came in the
00:43:23
Meenank Minnu: market
00:43:25
Meenank Minnu: unicorn startup
00:43:27
Meenank Minnu: that's so transparent that they have everyone's salary listed out
00:43:32
Meenank Minnu: on their website.
00:43:35
Meenank Minnu: Every single person salary who's working at Buffer is completely
00:43:39
Meenank Minnu: listed out in the salary section. You can go ahead
00:43:42
Meenank Minnu: and check it. It's there
00:43:45
Meenank Minnu: now. This tells me a lot about the brand.
00:43:49
Meenank Minnu: This attracts good talent. This gives out a good impression.
00:43:55
Meenank Minnu: Did I thought here we never know, You know?
00:44:00
Meenank Minnu: Did you want to get associated with your brand somehow
00:44:03
Meenank Minnu: just because you are transparent? So the very first step
00:44:07
Meenank Minnu: to be the trustworthy brand is being transparent.
00:44:12
Meenank Minnu: So in crypto space fears otherwise you are just an
00:44:16
Meenank Minnu: anonymous guy doing anonymous stuff
00:44:20
Meenank Minnu: in marketing. Generally, why are videos working? Just because
00:44:23
Meenank Minnu: videos add a lot of trust videos, people see that
00:44:26
Meenank Minnu: who you are, how you explain things and et cetera,
00:44:29
Meenank Minnu: et cetera.
00:44:30
Meenank Minnu: And as I marketed many as startups, there were many
00:44:34
Meenank Minnu: founders who didn't come to the webinars. Those products 100%
00:44:38
Meenank Minnu: performed poorly as opposed to the found. There was not
00:44:41
Meenank Minnu: even a single product in the entire history of 300
00:44:45
Meenank Minnu: plus as products that have personally gone unmarked at John,
00:44:50
Meenank Minnu: that
00:44:51
Meenank Minnu: if you have not done a webinar that without seeing
00:44:55
Meenank Minnu: your video and everything, none
00:44:58
Meenank Minnu: so creating videos very first up. That's why YouTube also
00:45:02
Meenank Minnu: comes back again, establishing the same thing. So transparency. That's
00:45:06
Meenank Minnu: when you establish who you are. What exactly is your intention?
00:45:09
Meenank Minnu: What exactly is a mission you have to be whenever
00:45:12
Meenank Minnu: you're trying to talk about your company or you you're
00:45:14
Meenank Minnu: trying to give a demo of your ass
00:45:17
Meenank Minnu: for transplants? When you try to do marketing, you'll get
00:45:19
Meenank Minnu: a lot of questions. Many questions are like, Ouch! I
00:45:22
Meenank Minnu: don't want to answer this data
00:45:25
Meenank Minnu: mhm, but you have to answer it.
00:45:28
Meenank Minnu: You know what all the question is? You have to
00:45:32
Meenank Minnu: answer it. If you don't answer it, you're budging the question.
00:45:34
Meenank Minnu: Then you are now untrustworthy.
00:45:37
Meenank Minnu: Oh, you have to answer it. Second step is you
00:45:41
Meenank Minnu: have to answer faster than that. It's not like ask
00:45:45
Meenank Minnu: question while answering me doesn't work like that.
00:45:51
Meenank Minnu: I'm interested right now. The customers interested right now want
00:45:54
Meenank Minnu: to answer it ease up.
00:45:56
Meenank Minnu: So you have to have a proper this thing bookmark,
00:46:01
Meenank Minnu: Or do you have to keep checking it multiple times
00:46:03
Meenank Minnu: a day? Basically, for questions, I anyone's asking how conversation
00:46:07
Meenank Minnu: over I? Where can I invest stuff and everything
00:46:10
Meenank Minnu: higher than that?
00:46:14
Meenank Minnu: Other than that, you can use social listening.
00:46:18
Meenank Minnu: This is a very deep pack, which even social media
00:46:22
Meenank Minnu: managers won't use.
00:46:24
Meenank Minnu: Social listening tools come at a price, but
00:46:28
Meenank Minnu: if I out preaching,
00:46:30
Meenank Minnu: it's an amazing tool to have. Basically, what happens is
00:46:33
Meenank Minnu: in a social listening tool. Let's say
00:46:37
Meenank Minnu: your brand's name is, I don't know. Give me any
00:46:41
Meenank Minnu: random name. Let's say your brand's name is Dell. OK, Dell,
00:46:44
Meenank Minnu: a Amazon Amazon? OK, Amazon. Since everyone talks about Amazon
00:46:48
Meenank Minnu: with the social listening tool, anyone who has talked about
00:46:52
Meenank Minnu: Amazon you will get their exact tweets, exact social media posts,
00:46:57
Meenank Minnu: exact edit posts and et cetera. You'll see their opinion
00:47:00
Meenank Minnu: about this thing, your brand and everything.
00:47:04
Meenank Minnu: How about Amazon and everything
00:47:06
Meenank Minnu: so similarly Amazon chiva. You can enter your brand and
00:47:08
Meenank Minnu: you can see basically anyone who has ever posted but
00:47:11
Meenank Minnu: forgot to tag you or something.
00:47:14
Meenank Minnu: So social listening plays like a very nice role in
00:47:18
Meenank Minnu: that third step is
00:47:21
Meenank Minnu: authentic content, which is authority driven
00:47:26
Meenank Minnu: whenever you post content online. Don't just post random content
00:47:31
Meenank Minnu: first content that signals you as an authority. Come may
00:47:35
Meenank Minnu: pass his field of knowledge here.
00:47:38
Meenank Minnu: That's when I can give you some good insights and everything.
00:47:43
Meenank Minnu: It as people tend to target these simple keywords. Joe
00:47:47
Meenank Minnu: many size blogs. They rank on key with, like top
00:47:51
Meenank Minnu: 10 motivational quotes.
00:47:53
Meenank Minnu: It's real, but
00:47:55
Meenank Minnu: you should be working on stuff like the bottom of
00:47:58
Meenank Minnu: the funnel, the issue of just getting traffic
00:48:02
Meenank Minnu: work on keywords that that tag at the bottom of
00:48:04
Meenank Minnu: the funnel that answers the question related to your sass.
00:48:07
Meenank Minnu: That is where authentic, valuable content comes into play. Invite experts.
00:48:12
Meenank Minnu: If you want to
00:48:14
Meenank Minnu: make the content actionable, make sure it solves a problem.
00:48:17
Meenank Minnu: Now you are not writing for S E. You are
00:48:19
Meenank Minnu: not using any A I tool to write the content,
00:48:22
Meenank Minnu: but actually, is it actually solving
00:48:24
Meenank Minnu: a problem? How do these bigger brands establish trust? They
00:48:28
Meenank Minnu: do surveys.
00:48:30
Meenank Minnu: They come out with an industry report something like that,
00:48:33
Meenank Minnu: and they collect emails for you to download that industry
00:48:36
Meenank Minnu: report up spot does it. Many big brands does it.
00:48:40
Meenank Minnu: If you cannot do such surveys because they are costly,
00:48:43
Meenank Minnu: you can cite examples
00:48:46
Meenank Minnu: whenever you're doing it. And whenever you cite these examples
00:48:50
Meenank Minnu: from high authority staff and et cetera, what happens is
00:48:53
Meenank Minnu: again people see you as trustworthy.
00:48:56
Meenank Minnu: HM. Then tell customers success stories. At least two or
00:49:01
Meenank Minnu: three people who have used the product
00:49:04
Meenank Minnu: who are faced who who are facing this problem. This
00:49:06
Meenank Minnu: problem is completely solved in that story.
00:49:10
Meenank Minnu: Get testimonials from those people. Testimonies is the number one
00:49:13
Meenank Minnu: way to establish trust, right? And if it's this as product,
00:49:17
Meenank Minnu: you need to be on trust. Pilot. You need to
00:49:19
Meenank Minnu: be on other similar websites, like trusting it to trust pilot.
00:49:23
Meenank Minnu: There are many websites 23. Basically, trust comes in the
00:49:26
Meenank Minnu: number one category. G two crowd is another one. You
00:49:30
Meenank Minnu: need to be there
00:49:32
Meenank Minnu: because bigger people they looking at these websites and trying
00:49:35
Meenank Minnu: to see if you have any reviews or not.
00:49:38
Meenank Minnu: That's another way to establish trust.
00:49:41
Meenank Minnu: The next day. To establish trust is how exactly you
00:49:44
Meenank Minnu: guys talk in the company showing of the culture
00:49:49
Meenank Minnu: right? How do why do these bigger companies have people
00:49:52
Meenank Minnu: of hops.
00:49:54
Meenank Minnu: It's just about how these guys are having fun in
00:49:57
Meenank Minnu: the company, how these guys are doing initiatives in the company,
00:50:00
Meenank Minnu: et cetera.
00:50:01
Meenank Minnu: More transparency. So showing us your company culture is another thing.
00:50:06
Meenank Minnu: Responding to criticism, as I said before, I'm reiterating it again.
00:50:11
Meenank Minnu: We had our fair share of criticism in the past
00:50:14
Meenank Minnu: and not responding. It only made the image even worse.
00:50:17
Meenank Minnu: So responding to criticism
00:50:19
Meenank Minnu: and finally to top it up as a cherry on
00:50:22
Meenank Minnu: the cake,
00:50:23
Meenank Minnu: if you just ask, is cutting.
00:50:26
Meenank Minnu: So you still the the the person purchases the product.
00:50:32
Meenank Minnu: Your service doesn't end there. It starts there. You have
00:50:35
Meenank Minnu: to make him an advocate, not just your subscription guy
00:50:38
Meenank Minnu: who's just paying money. How do you make him an advocate?
00:50:42
Meenank Minnu: You prioritise a post sale relationship
00:50:45
Meenank Minnu: by following up by helping themselves their problems and et cetera.
00:50:49
Meenank Minnu: You have. That's what happens.
00:50:52
Meenank Minnu: So give trust building. Basically, Lara finds actionable points on
00:50:58
Meenank Minnu: the testimonials on the platforms and the criticism part on
00:51:02
Meenank Minnu: the examples as well. So yes, these are it is
00:51:07
Meenank Minnu: trust
00:51:08
Saikat Pyne: that was so actionable. I'm sure that any solo turner
00:51:12
Saikat Pyne: listening would be like buy a hardcore car. So that
00:51:24
Saikat Pyne: sort of leads me on to my next question, which
00:51:26
Saikat Pyne: is
00:51:27
Saikat Pyne: if I am a techie and I've built this Microsoft
00:51:30
Saikat Pyne: product and everything is good to go, my M V
00:51:32
Saikat Pyne: P is place, and I'm waiting to just push a
00:51:36
Saikat Pyne: button and go live, and that this is when Mika
00:51:39
Saikat Pyne: I have to make my first marketing hire,
00:51:42
Saikat Pyne: uh, who should be my first marketing hire.
00:51:46
Meenank Minnu: Classic Classic classic If you I think your first marketing
00:51:51
Meenank Minnu: hire
00:51:52
Meenank Minnu: should be a
00:51:55
Meenank Minnu: from what I've noticed from what I've personally done, he's
00:51:59
Meenank Minnu: a social media manager.
00:52:01
Meenank Minnu: We have seen that improve our thing, especially with the
00:52:06
Meenank Minnu: social media played a major role. At least you won't
00:52:09
Meenank Minnu: believe how much big role. At least you can say
00:52:14
Meenank Minnu: 500 to a million dollars in sales came from social media. Easily. Yes, guarantee.
00:52:21
Meenank Minnu: I can guarantee you that a million dollars in sales
00:52:24
Meenank Minnu: came from social media, and with that, I would say
00:52:27
Meenank Minnu: that itself is sufficient to say that social media managers
00:52:30
Meenank Minnu: is the very first thing because a social media manager
00:52:33
Meenank Minnu: has a very diverse skills set
00:52:35
Meenank Minnu: right. He's writing captions, which means He's also understanding English,
00:52:39
Meenank Minnu: and he's able to write a bit of content. We're
00:52:41
Meenank Minnu: able to design creatives to running the campaign. You have
00:52:44
Meenank Minnu: to have someone who designs creatives also because you don't
00:52:47
Meenank Minnu: have the budget extra budget to hire a graphic designer.
00:52:50
Meenank Minnu: So social media manager is your writer. You're a graphic designer.
00:52:53
Meenank Minnu: You He is your host as a social media guy,
00:52:56
Meenank Minnu: and
00:52:56
Meenank Minnu: he also has the fundamentals of community management. So basically,
00:53:00
Meenank Minnu: he's an allrounder. A social media manager is always an allrounder.
00:53:03
Meenank Minnu: You hire an S e o guy. He's only doing
00:53:05
Meenank Minnu: s u
00:53:06
Meenank Minnu: you hire somebody else paid ads, guy. He's only doing
00:53:10
Meenank Minnu: paid ads, a performance marketer guy, social media there. He's
00:53:13
Meenank Minnu: doing a lot of things from content to creating these
00:53:17
Meenank Minnu: kind of campaigns to going live to. I don't know
00:53:20
Meenank Minnu: he's making to his social media manager if treated right,
00:53:25
Meenank Minnu: if it since it's a high, stressful job, too, if
00:53:29
Meenank Minnu: you give them all the resources and if you guide
00:53:31
Meenank Minnu: them and also keep him accountable,
00:53:34
Meenank Minnu: there's nothing like it. So I would say Social media
00:53:36
Meenank Minnu: manager is the very first hire you need to go
00:53:38
Meenank Minnu: with
00:53:39
Saikat Pyne: lovely, and that leads me on to my last question,
00:53:43
Saikat Pyne: which is
00:53:44
Saikat Pyne: if I decide to hire a marketer or maybe a
00:53:48
Saikat Pyne: marketing agency. If I land on a pot of gold
00:53:51
Saikat Pyne: as a non marketer, how do I evaluate a marketer
00:53:54
Saikat Pyne: or a marketing agency?
00:53:56
Meenank Minnu: OK, let's divide this into two parts, which is a
00:53:59
Meenank Minnu: marketer and a marketing agency. Let's finish up with the
00:54:02
Meenank Minnu: marketing agency, part with marketing agency part you need to
00:54:05
Meenank Minnu: look at if they have done any sort of project
00:54:08
Meenank Minnu: like this before. If they haven't done, then you might
00:54:12
Meenank Minnu: be well off with another agency who has done it
00:54:15
Meenank Minnu: so.
00:54:17
Meenank Minnu: And if they have done, let's say they have done
00:54:20
Meenank Minnu: this sort of project taken up this sort of project before.
00:54:22
Meenank Minnu: Ask them the results into the nitty gritty, how they
00:54:25
Meenank Minnu: exactly held them. What was
00:54:28
Meenank Minnu: the stage of the startup before your agency? And what
00:54:32
Meenank Minnu: was it after the agency?
00:54:34
Meenank Minnu: Can you show me the results and everything?
00:54:39
Meenank Minnu: And that's when you will actually get into the core
00:54:42
Meenank Minnu: because you're talking about results. You're talking about the work now.
00:54:45
Meenank Minnu: Right
00:54:46
Meenank Minnu: now, they have to show the work and that if
00:54:48
Meenank Minnu: there is no work or anything then you know they're bullshitting.
00:54:52
Meenank Minnu: As a founder, we definitely will get to know if
00:54:54
Meenank Minnu: they're bullshitting or not.
00:54:56
Meenank Minnu: And as a marketing agency, you might. You should also
00:54:59
Meenank Minnu: see their systems.
00:55:02
Meenank Minnu: When you're getting on a call with them,
00:55:04
Meenank Minnu: try missing out on the call. Try postponing the call
00:55:09
Meenank Minnu: now. If you see the how they follow up with you,
00:55:13
Meenank Minnu: that will tell a lot about their systems.
00:55:17
Meenank Minnu: Hm. If the schedule call with the proper software and anything,
00:55:22
Meenank Minnu: everything
00:55:23
Meenank Minnu: you easily get to know how streamlined they are or
00:55:26
Meenank Minnu: if they are just a bunch of people figuring out
00:55:28
Meenank Minnu: how to manage and market 10 different startups. No, do
00:55:31
Meenank Minnu: this and you'll find out exactly how their systems are.
00:55:36
Meenank Minnu: And that's when you realise, OK if they are to
00:55:39
Meenank Minnu: go with or not. This is part of the agency.
00:55:42
Meenank Minnu: Pack and agency always be careful with dealing with agencies
00:55:46
Meenank Minnu: because contracts usually take quarterly staff. They take a prepayment,
00:55:53
Meenank Minnu: so be extra carefully with an agency and with a marketer.
00:55:57
Meenank Minnu: That's where it becomes super super easy.
00:56:02
Meenank Minnu: Why? Because with the marketer, you can look as them
00:56:05
Meenank Minnu: their proof of work.
00:56:07
Meenank Minnu: I don't care about your DIY. I am the proof
00:56:09
Meenank Minnu: of work.
00:56:11
Meenank Minnu: And how exactly are they able to talk and convey
00:56:14
Meenank Minnu: one of the first things which I've done while hiring
00:56:17
Meenank Minnu: a social media manager I've gone through? I've screened at
00:56:19
Meenank Minnu: least a minimum of 5000 to 10 applicants easily Till today,
00:56:24
Meenank Minnu: Out of these 10 applicants, I've only hired
00:56:28
Meenank Minnu: Mag 20. So imagine the level of filtering with this
00:56:31
Meenank Minnu: level of filtering. All I want is
00:56:35
Meenank Minnu: the main thing which I sent them was they're comfortable on.
00:56:38
Meenank Minnu: If they're comfortable on video or not.
00:56:41
Meenank Minnu: Out of 10 social media managers,
00:56:44
Meenank Minnu: at least five of them are not comfortable on video guarantee.
00:56:47
Meenank Minnu: It is eliminated.
00:56:50
Meenank Minnu: Now you want a video where you know the power
00:56:53
Meenank Minnu: of radio, our trust Wa wa You know that out
00:56:56
Meenank Minnu: of these five people,
00:56:57
Meenank Minnu: some people are genuinely trying for the very first time
00:57:02
Meenank Minnu: or may maybe they have been. It's been quite a while.
00:57:06
Meenank Minnu: We
00:57:09
Meenank Minnu: you should see which guy put in the maximum. That's
00:57:12
Meenank Minnu: when I realise how. Yeah, a third battle, which means
00:57:15
Meenank Minnu: if I buy him stuff, if I get him resources,
00:57:20
Meenank Minnu: he's going to work on it.
00:57:22
Meenank Minnu: He is going to learn this stuff. He's going to
00:57:24
Meenank Minnu: put more effort and I can actually grow himself and me.
00:57:28
Meenank Minnu: Some brand beside my girl.
00:57:31
Meenank Minnu: Got it? Yes, the other K All that's 11 other thing.
00:57:35
Meenank Minnu: How are they good? In terms of communication, some people
00:57:38
Meenank Minnu: are like P FA. Resume
00:57:41
Meenank Minnu: without subject to anything without anything. OK, yeah. Instant reject
00:57:47
Meenank Minnu: instant reject. OK,
00:57:50
Meenank Minnu: so ultimately, you're eliminating 80% of the people like this
00:57:54
Meenank Minnu: and finally they get on a call with you
00:57:57
Meenank Minnu: And once they get on a call, we do the 100%.
00:57:59
Meenank Minnu: Not the communications are here.
00:58:02
Meenank Minnu: Got it?
00:58:03
Meenank Minnu: I'll ask them the basic plan. Marketing karubi, let them.
00:58:08
Meenank Minnu: And if you're satisfied with the answer, after all these
00:58:11
Meenank Minnu: filtering mechanisms and everything,
00:58:13
Meenank Minnu: then you know you have to go with it. Go
00:58:16
Meenank Minnu: with him or her. So this is like a simple
00:58:19
Meenank Minnu: of course. There are many, many ways to figure out
00:58:22
Meenank Minnu: who this guy how to hire a marketer.
00:58:24
Meenank Minnu: But this is like a very basic scratching the surface
00:58:27
Meenank Minnu: on how to hire
00:58:28
Saikat Pyne: a market. This is supremely helpful. This is so helpful.
00:58:31
Saikat Pyne: And with that, it's a wrap. Thank you so much
00:58:35
Saikat Pyne: for being on the podcast. I really appreciated you taking
00:58:38
Saikat Pyne: time out for this chat.
00:58:40
Meenank Minnu: Thank you so much for inviting me as the guest. Satan.
00:58:43
Meenank Minnu: It was exciting. A lot of heart questions and a
00:58:46
Meenank Minnu: lot of Yeah,
00:58:48
Meenank Minnu: no. I can offer this podcast to anyone and everyone
00:58:50
Meenank Minnu: who wants and marketing. Thank you so much.
00:58:53
Saikat Pyne: Same here, man. Guys, please do tune in next week
00:58:57
Saikat Pyne: for the next Kick Ass episode of the U Incorporated podcast.
00:59:02
Saikat Pyne: See ya.
00:59:07
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00:59:13
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00:59:17
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00:59:22
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00:59:30
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00:59:38
Saikat Pyne: our show. Notes Catch you in the next episode.