On this episode, we explore the complex world of influencer marketing.
From the importance of audience engagement to the challenge of identifying fake followers, we delve into the various factors that impact the effectiveness of influencer partnerships. Our guest, Kalyan Kumar, founder & CEO of Klug Klug, an AI-ML-led data platform for influencer marketing discovery and insights highlights the role of technology in streamlining the process and discuss why influencer marketing should be a continuous strategy, rather than a one-time campaign.
We also explore the differences between B2C and B2B marketing, debate the role of big vs. micro influencers, and examine the importance of emotional appeal in product endorsement.
Join us as we uncover the secrets of successful influencer marketing and discover how brands can leverage this powerful tool to drive engagement, awareness, and ultimately, sales.
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00:00:32
Saikat Pyne: Hello. Hello. Welcome to the U Incorporated podcast with me. Saa.
00:00:37
Saikat Pyne: I have the pleasure of having Kalyan Kumar with me.
00:00:40
Saikat Pyne: Kan is the co-founder and CEO of an E i
00:00:43
Saikat Pyne: N m l led influencer intelligence, discovery and Insights platform
00:00:48
Saikat Pyne: that offers marketers access to profile insights of over a
00:00:52
Saikat Pyne: quarter of a billion influencers from around the world. It's
00:00:56
Saikat Pyne: truly amazing, guys. And on this show, we are going
00:00:58
Saikat Pyne: to speak about how not to fuck up
00:01:01
Saikat Pyne: your creator partnerships as an aspiring founder for rookie marketer.
00:01:05
Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the
00:01:06
Kalyan Kumar: show, Kan. Thanks a lot. Thank you for having me.
00:01:09
Kalyan Kumar: You're a veteran
00:01:10
Saikat Pyne: market yourself. What do you see as the role of
00:01:14
Saikat Pyne: creator partnerships When it comes to the B two b
00:01:17
Saikat Pyne: dome versus the B two c domain,
00:01:19
Kalyan Kumar: My space is B to C, which include Consumer Insight.
00:01:22
Kalyan Kumar: What makes people take what is the B to B world?
00:01:26
Kalyan Kumar: Which is very,
00:01:27
Kalyan Kumar: uh who is the key decision maker? What is the
00:01:30
Kalyan Kumar: influencer network within an organisation? Who will make decisions and
00:01:35
Kalyan Kumar: and that kind of puts in a very different space.
00:01:38
Kalyan Kumar: The consumer outreach can be massive, can be mass can
00:01:41
Kalyan Kumar: be niche oriented within a mask within a consumer thing
00:01:43
Kalyan Kumar: because I can pick up a product or buy a
00:01:46
Kalyan Kumar: product basis, my emotional, rational reasons and all of that.
00:01:50
Kalyan Kumar: But
00:01:51
Kalyan Kumar: B to B yeah,
00:01:53
Kalyan Kumar: is heavily rational. How is it good for me? How
00:01:56
Kalyan Kumar: much will it cost? What are the features? All of that?
00:01:59
Kalyan Kumar: So
00:02:00
Kalyan Kumar: that's one layer and therefore the audience and the influencer
00:02:04
Kalyan Kumar: mapping becomes very different here. I would say, if I'm
00:02:07
Kalyan Kumar: a beauty brand, I want a beauty influencer with a
00:02:09
Kalyan Kumar: beauty audience with female audiences and so on. All those
00:02:12
Kalyan Kumar: targeting needs versus B to B. I could speak to
00:02:15
Kalyan Kumar: a lot of people with an influencer, but I need
00:02:18
Kalyan Kumar: someone who's a captain of the industry or someone who
00:02:20
Kalyan Kumar: influences people with their thoughts and that splits it around
00:02:24
Kalyan Kumar: and therefore the platform stage. You would not, the lines agree,
00:02:27
Kalyan Kumar: while LinkedIn would work in a very different way for
00:02:29
Kalyan Kumar: a B to B stage, Instagram and Tiktok would obviously
00:02:32
Kalyan Kumar: give you for one in 10 relevant consumer. If you're
00:02:35
Kalyan Kumar: trying to do a B to B outreach using, however,
00:02:38
Kalyan Kumar: YouTube is again interesting fun.
00:02:40
Kalyan Kumar: Comment I have is, I think, after Google, YouTube probably
00:02:43
Kalyan Kumar: is the largest search engine. There. You can find B
00:02:45
Kalyan Kumar: to B people talking about trucks and engines and which
00:02:48
Kalyan Kumar: car to buy, versus which industry which so which phone works.
00:02:52
Kalyan Kumar: So a lot of B to B influencing is happening
00:02:54
Kalyan Kumar: there because and YouTube allows audiences to select and find
00:02:56
Kalyan Kumar: content versus again. YouTubers talking about makeup and fashion and
00:03:01
Kalyan Kumar: cooking and
00:03:01
Saikat Pyne: food. KAN Imagine I'm a young d two c brand.
00:03:05
Saikat Pyne: How do I identify product evangelists? Really, the
00:03:09
Kalyan Kumar: the
00:03:10
Kalyan Kumar: the logic and seamlessness of traditional marketing that on the
00:03:13
Kalyan Kumar: Internet for the rest of it applies on influencer marketing,
00:03:17
Kalyan Kumar: which is
00:03:18
Kalyan Kumar: my first advice to U to see Founder would be
00:03:22
Kalyan Kumar: your influences are your mouthpiece
00:03:24
Kalyan Kumar: mhm and the audience of the influencer That's your target
00:03:28
Kalyan Kumar: audience now.
00:03:30
Kalyan Kumar: Are they question to ask their stories? Is my target
00:03:33
Kalyan Kumar: audience like paid media for targeting for performance? And how
00:03:38
Kalyan Kumar: do I find influencers who, at least in the ballpark,
00:03:42
Kalyan Kumar: deliver those audiences?
00:03:45
Kalyan Kumar: And therefore, I would say, Don't go just by the genre, right?
00:03:49
Kalyan Kumar: An influencer looks to it. He or she has 100
00:03:52
Kalyan Kumar: followers or one million followers. He or she talks about
00:03:56
Kalyan Kumar: fashion and lifestyle
00:03:58
Kalyan Kumar: Um,
00:04:00
Kalyan Kumar: but let's say you're L'Oreal and you are trying to
00:04:03
Kalyan Kumar: find female influences. You talk about a certain product line,
00:04:08
Kalyan Kumar: which is feminine,
00:04:09
Kalyan Kumar: and you know what happens is the natural selection of
00:04:13
Kalyan Kumar: Let's say, a lot of, uh, a lot of female
00:04:16
Kalyan Kumar: influencers will very likely have a chunk of male followers, right,
00:04:21
Kalyan Kumar: and that will come out later. So we say, Keep
00:04:25
Kalyan Kumar: that in mind. Can you say to the audience,
00:04:28
Kalyan Kumar: Can you sift through the audience affinities? Which is to say,
00:04:33
Kalyan Kumar: if it ever possible, is could I find out whether
00:04:36
Kalyan Kumar: my influences audience really like to hear about beauty, lifestyle
00:04:39
Kalyan Kumar: or secondly, it is relevant. Audiences. Please look for that.
00:04:44
Kalyan Kumar: Even if we just took influences or fake follows out,
00:04:47
Kalyan Kumar: you would, on an average see 20 to 40% job
00:04:50
Kalyan Kumar: just to give you a state of affairs on Instagram.
00:04:54
Kalyan Kumar: Let say you take one million profiles on instagram randomly
00:04:58
Kalyan Kumar: and you check for audience authenticity, saying that look how
00:05:03
Kalyan Kumar: many would be at least 70% authentic audiences.
00:05:08
Kalyan Kumar: Uh, one million would fall to the zone of 400
00:05:11
Kalyan Kumar: or less.
00:05:14
Kalyan Kumar: Yes, by the way, this is across the world. But
00:05:16
Kalyan Kumar: India's massive in this mad and
00:05:20
Kalyan Kumar: no blue tick is an indicator of audience. A authenticity.
00:05:24
Saikat Pyne: There are allegations of some of the biggest celebrities in
00:05:28
Saikat Pyne: the world, including Indian celebrities purchasing pot followers. There are multiple,
00:05:33
Saikat Pyne: very public marketplaces where you could purchase social media followers.
00:05:38
Saikat Pyne: Why is this game on?
00:05:40
Kalyan Kumar: This is the usual problem of all media in the
00:05:44
Kalyan Kumar: sense each technology, uh, there is new knowledge, Uh, but
00:05:48
Kalyan Kumar: it's just the information arbitrage, which is what is the
00:05:52
Kalyan Kumar: world making its current decision based on the number of followers.
00:05:58
Kalyan Kumar: So me as a creator, it's an incentive. Hey, listen,
00:06:02
Kalyan Kumar: I can add 30% more influences and charge 10% per content,
00:06:07
Kalyan Kumar: right? That's Is everybody out there aware of this?
00:06:11
Kalyan Kumar: No, we are the few. It's a small circle of
00:06:14
Kalyan Kumar: people who are aware that you can actually make
00:06:17
Kalyan Kumar: decisions on influence of acting raises the audience of an influencer.
00:06:22
Kalyan Kumar: Right now it's just three layers.
00:06:24
Kalyan Kumar: I like the influencer by the genre and treatment to
00:06:27
Kalyan Kumar: my brand,
00:06:28
Kalyan Kumar: the number of followers he or she has, and I
00:06:31
Kalyan Kumar: like the engagement ring.
00:06:33
Kalyan Kumar: No
00:06:34
Kalyan Kumar: problem with the genre is fine as visual aesthetic, subjective
00:06:38
Kalyan Kumar: and humanly vet
00:06:41
Kalyan Kumar: but other two are completely GAM, and therefore there's an
00:06:45
Kalyan Kumar: incentive for everyone to game it.
00:06:47
Kalyan Kumar: So the resurgence of tech being able to build transparency
00:06:53
Kalyan Kumar: on this is what's gonna make it go away. But
00:06:55
Kalyan Kumar: right now it's the penetration of Tech is
00:06:59
Kalyan Kumar: I'm just gonna give a indicative number, which is to say,
00:07:03
Kalyan Kumar: I would say it's less than 5% which is decision makers, marketers,
00:07:08
Kalyan Kumar: and they are not aware that you can, that these
00:07:10
Kalyan Kumar: things are. That's why we talk and the world would benefit.
00:07:14
Kalyan Kumar: And the hungry people who really make it work and
00:07:17
Kalyan Kumar: they are able to figure it out before the bigger
00:07:18
Kalyan Kumar: branch
00:07:20
Kalyan Kumar: are the D two C brands, the bootstrap brands who
00:07:23
Kalyan Kumar: won't count. And they are our biggest evangelists.
00:07:27
Kalyan Kumar: I mean, out of the 40 d two C brands
00:07:29
Kalyan Kumar: who signed up on us. I think they saw the
00:07:31
Kalyan Kumar: demo and they recommend 20 other friends.
00:07:35
Kalyan Kumar: Can we almost feel like the family?
00:07:37
Kalyan Kumar: I get that because they have a lack of rupees
00:07:41
Kalyan Kumar: as going to spend,
00:07:43
Kalyan Kumar: and we say spend 15 20 k on the platform
00:07:46
Kalyan Kumar: or any tech platform. I just want to take this
00:07:48
Kalyan Kumar: conversation away from me to say. But make sure the
00:07:51
Kalyan Kumar: remaining ₹80 that is spent on buying influences and paying
00:07:55
Kalyan Kumar: for them
00:07:56
Kalyan Kumar: works. At least you're rolling out the errands. But you're
00:08:00
Saikat Pyne: really telling me that some of the most experienced marketers
00:08:05
Saikat Pyne: in Indian M N CS across sectors are not aware
00:08:09
Saikat Pyne: of this menace of fake followers as yet,
00:08:13
Kalyan Kumar: I am absolutely telling you that, and I can have
00:08:16
Kalyan Kumar: data to that. For example, that could take any brand.
00:08:20
Kalyan Kumar: But I could immediately let from my cars see how
00:08:24
Kalyan Kumar: many influences they have engaged in the 90 days.
00:08:27
Kalyan Kumar: And if I just do a philtre of how many
00:08:29
Kalyan Kumar: have worked with how many of those were
00:08:33
Kalyan Kumar: affect followers,
00:08:35
Kalyan Kumar: that number often lands at around 50%.
00:08:40
Kalyan Kumar: 467.
00:08:42
Kalyan Kumar: Imagine there's a massive beauty influencer. Let's say there's a
00:08:46
Kalyan Kumar: there, a big X y Z and the appeal they
00:08:50
Kalyan Kumar: funded
00:08:52
Kalyan Kumar: in the even if they're doing parts and whatever else
00:08:56
Kalyan Kumar: least almost 50% of their influence is
00:08:59
Kalyan Kumar: either should be paid a very different amount, which is
00:09:02
Kalyan Kumar: is their audience, right? All this.
00:09:05
Kalyan Kumar: Oh, by the way, I've had some very interesting conversations with,
00:09:08
Kalyan Kumar: and they're saying, Look, I know There's a lot of influences,
00:09:10
Kalyan Kumar: a lot of fake followers, and we don't care. We
00:09:13
Kalyan Kumar: just send them the product and they write about us
00:09:16
Kalyan Kumar: and therefore it it doesn't cost me money. It cost
00:09:18
Kalyan Kumar: me 700 rust, which I think is worth I said, Look,
00:09:22
Kalyan Kumar: that's good. But how about if you send that 700
00:09:25
Kalyan Kumar: Rupe S t u product to somebody with a attending audience?
00:09:29
Kalyan Kumar: So the incentives and the time and, yeah, so short
00:09:33
Kalyan Kumar: answer is again
00:09:35
Kalyan Kumar: No, the marketers are not a better place, and the
00:09:38
Kalyan Kumar: bigger the organisation they have all the inputs. What is
00:09:41
Kalyan Kumar: the one of the reasons would be that everyone spending
00:09:44
Kalyan Kumar: a lot more on influence marketing but has it on salience.
00:09:48
Kalyan Kumar: What's this? And then what's the optimisation cost and worth
00:09:51
Kalyan Kumar: my time as a manager or brand manager or the
00:09:53
Kalyan Kumar: CMO only so much? It's gone up to 30% in
00:09:58
Kalyan Kumar: certain markets for certain beauty and lifestyle lead to see
00:10:00
Kalyan Kumar: brands of marketing
00:10:03
Kalyan Kumar: and for them, it's absolutely imperative to optimise that,
00:10:07
Kalyan Kumar: but let's say it's a repeat five
00:10:10
Kalyan Kumar: saying Hey, look, man, we've got a world going on.
00:10:12
Kalyan Kumar: We got a sales team, we've got our operations. We've got, uh, distributions. Uh,
00:10:16
Kalyan Kumar: media plays only an ex out of that. The sliver
00:10:19
Kalyan Kumar: of that is in marketing. Digital is still massive, so yeah,
00:10:23
Kalyan Kumar: the cookie will keep crumbling.
00:10:25
Kalyan Kumar: But the point is, it's if you remember YouTube. Oh, sorry.
00:10:28
Kalyan Kumar: Video marketing. Do you remember? Uh,
00:10:32
Kalyan Kumar: a brand accompanied a tech called mod, which said, I
00:10:35
Kalyan Kumar: will give you view metrics, which means a video could
00:10:40
Kalyan Kumar: earlier run on a single pixel on a consumer's phone
00:10:43
Kalyan Kumar: or laptop, which means they're not seeing the video, but
00:10:46
Kalyan Kumar: it's being delivered. And that said OK, or at least
00:10:49
Kalyan Kumar: 25 or 30 or 40% of the screen has to
00:10:52
Kalyan Kumar: contain the video insertion.
00:10:55
Kalyan Kumar: Only then it qualifies for the video like that. We're saying,
00:10:57
Kalyan Kumar: you know, tech funds like us. Look, you are saying that. Look,
00:11:00
Kalyan Kumar: there's just new data. It's like a fork for having
00:11:03
Kalyan Kumar: messed up your in terms of marketing. You didn't mess up.
00:11:06
Kalyan Kumar: You did the best you could. Now there's new data,
00:11:09
Kalyan Kumar: and that instantly allows you to 20 to 40 to 60%
00:11:12
Kalyan Kumar: of cleanliness on Daisy. Through that,
00:11:14
Saikat Pyne: do you have stories of founders approaching creators with the
00:11:19
Saikat Pyne: data on their fake following and how they might have
00:11:23
Saikat Pyne: reacted to those
00:11:24
Kalyan Kumar: without having names. It's a very tricky place. So one
00:11:27
Kalyan Kumar: is you say Hey, listen, somebody has 80% paper, right?
00:11:30
Kalyan Kumar: But you can see those 20% of the real followers
00:11:33
Kalyan Kumar: are really high quality. Uh, there are scenarios where
00:11:37
Kalyan Kumar: out of that 20% 1/4 of them are influencers themselves
00:11:41
Kalyan Kumar: because he's such a big or she's such a big
00:11:44
Kalyan Kumar: lifestyle fashion, tech, influencer and look at so there's a
00:11:48
Kalyan Kumar: quality there. Second is they make beautiful content. They are
00:11:52
Kalyan Kumar: amenable people. They are lovely people. So it's I don't
00:11:55
Kalyan Kumar: judge anyone. I just said, Look, here's your situation. Here's
00:11:59
Kalyan Kumar: your content and here's your audience.
00:12:02
Kalyan Kumar: The sweet spot may not be that. Hey, listen, if
00:12:04
Kalyan Kumar: I have 80% fake followers, could I pay them one?
00:12:09
Kalyan Kumar: But I said, Look, maybe it's two X or or
00:12:10
Kalyan Kumar: maybe it's the 40% of the cost because they're making
00:12:13
Kalyan Kumar: great content expensive, and you know what's happening right now.
00:12:16
Kalyan Kumar: There's a lot of what you call it. White listing,
00:12:18
Kalyan Kumar: which is right and in in any case, gives you
00:12:22
Kalyan Kumar: a very limited organic reach. But put paid media behind
00:12:25
Kalyan Kumar: the beautiful cause content.
00:12:28
Kalyan Kumar: So no matter what the category and how many fake
00:12:30
Kalyan Kumar: followers right can be reached to many audiences, you're fighting
00:12:33
Kalyan Kumar: from the shoulders of an influencer. It's really interesting, but
00:12:35
Kalyan Kumar: there are many fun stories where
00:12:38
Kalyan Kumar: the influencers and hey listen OK, fine, you got me.
00:12:41
Kalyan Kumar: But so let's work. Let's get to work. Let's work it.
00:12:44
Kalyan Kumar: The other way to look at it is which we
00:12:45
Kalyan Kumar: recommend brands is Look, you can do that. We can
00:12:48
Kalyan Kumar: just say that. Look, there are still for every influencers
00:12:51
Kalyan Kumar: or whatever. There are at least 30 other influencers who
00:12:57
Kalyan Kumar: are far more worthy. But it's your quality. It's your comfort.
00:13:00
Kalyan Kumar: It's your human limitation. There's a manage service model. So
00:13:04
Kalyan Kumar: you know
00:13:05
Kalyan Kumar: our decisions with the eyes open is all we are
00:13:07
Saikat Pyne: in him. Absolutely. Do you see this menace of fake
00:13:10
Saikat Pyne: followers going away anytime soon?
00:13:12
Kalyan Kumar: That's a heavy question, and I would think Yes,
00:13:16
Kalyan Kumar: OK,
00:13:17
Kalyan Kumar: what are the incentives? So the tech platforms are also
00:13:20
Kalyan Kumar: cleaning it up, right? You know that Twitter is cleaning it.
00:13:23
Kalyan Kumar: Instagram is cleaning it, but they're cleaning it at a
00:13:25
Kalyan Kumar: slow pace in the sense they will clean it when
00:13:27
Kalyan Kumar: they want bigger fish to try. And it's also
00:13:32
Kalyan Kumar: subscriber was claims they could,
00:13:34
Kalyan Kumar: right? Of course they're a board. We think there is
00:13:37
Kalyan Kumar: enough take out there that just gives you clients. For example,
00:13:41
Kalyan Kumar: How do we tell you someone's abort? We say we
00:13:44
Kalyan Kumar: don't know if they're a board. All we are saying
00:13:46
Kalyan Kumar: is they're most likely useless because no, no human activity
00:13:52
Kalyan Kumar: on the timeline in the last six months.
00:13:55
Kalyan Kumar: So how does it matter if they are fake or
00:13:57
Kalyan Kumar: real as they're on show to the party?
00:14:01
Kalyan Kumar: True that. Yeah, So we think that's stage one.
00:14:04
Kalyan Kumar: As brands adopt as the evangelization grows, everybody will know. Hey, look,
00:14:08
Kalyan Kumar: the sets are only on making great content and building
00:14:11
Kalyan Kumar: a great community for my content as a creator
00:14:15
Kalyan Kumar: and that
00:14:17
Kalyan Kumar: everything is pointing to reduction.
00:14:19
Kalyan Kumar: How do you said that
00:14:21
Kalyan Kumar: the tech of people working on these fake follows fake likes?
00:14:25
Kalyan Kumar: We're always all one step ahead of each of those platforms, right?
00:14:30
Kalyan Kumar: It'll continue it.
00:14:32
Kalyan Kumar: It will peter out.
00:14:35
Kalyan Kumar: What's the timeline?
00:14:37
Kalyan Kumar: Given the way tech works plan is constricting. You take iron,
00:14:41
Kalyan Kumar: the technical age to this age, the computer age, everything
00:14:44
Kalyan Kumar: is getting smaller where we'll see much on saying Facebook
00:14:47
Kalyan Kumar: may not exist 10 years from now five years. Who knows?
00:14:50
Kalyan Kumar: That's all we know that we thought would rule the
00:14:53
Kalyan Kumar: plane didn't exist as are not here today,
00:14:55
Kalyan Kumar: and more of that is gonna happen today. In the
00:14:57
Kalyan Kumar: subset of that discussion, we're saying that the fake follow
00:15:00
Kalyan Kumar: thing is, but there'll be another menace and it may
00:15:03
Kalyan Kumar: be related or on a different channel on the digital world.
00:15:07
Kalyan Kumar: You've got mixed reality coming in. You've got a whole
00:15:10
Kalyan Kumar: different world populating equivalent to the Matrix. Very early days.
00:15:14
Kalyan Kumar: You're all dropping the words like a I m l
00:15:17
Kalyan Kumar: 3.0 and Metaverse.
00:15:20
Kalyan Kumar: Yeah, you know that that is, except the PR conversations
00:15:24
Kalyan Kumar: around those 30 people only. Maybe we know 3000 of
00:15:28
Kalyan Kumar: the most relevant people and only 15 of them have
00:15:31
Kalyan Kumar: an Oculus, and two of them have a card.
00:15:33
Kalyan Kumar: True. So yeah, so there'll be new challenges. I'm seeing
00:15:37
Kalyan Kumar: the fake follow on. One should ideally diminish because there's
00:15:39
Kalyan Kumar: enough to say, Hey, listen, it's not working out.
00:15:43
Saikat Pyne: Got it? Where does the Micro Creator fit into a
00:15:47
Saikat Pyne: marketing mix? According to you versus Where does let's say
00:15:49
Saikat Pyne: the slab creator fit into the marketing mix of a
00:15:52
Saikat Pyne: B two c
00:15:53
Kalyan Kumar: brand.
00:15:55
Kalyan Kumar: A great question. And as I could have been talking
00:15:58
Kalyan Kumar: about this for
00:16:00
Kalyan Kumar: at least three years way before, it was very cool
00:16:03
Kalyan Kumar: to write the blog every other day where I
00:16:06
Kalyan Kumar: I didn't have the word. My is. And I just said, Look,
00:16:10
Kalyan Kumar: here is a way like you had to do the
00:16:14
Kalyan Kumar: how I make your mother hot. Crazy.
00:16:18
Kalyan Kumar: Yeah, right. Um, yeah. So if you take the axis
00:16:22
Kalyan Kumar: and I'm gonna make a subjective claim here, just sure, Sure,
00:16:25
Kalyan Kumar: That man, you take the reach of an influencer on
00:16:28
Kalyan Kumar: one axis and your influence on the other axis. Barring
00:16:32
Kalyan Kumar: a few outliers, they'll always be there. You find an
00:16:34
Kalyan Kumar: inverse correlation.
00:16:37
Kalyan Kumar: What does that mean? That means I'm going back to
00:16:40
Kalyan Kumar: first principles. Which is to say, the bigger I am
00:16:42
Kalyan Kumar: as an influencer, the less likely my followers are gonna
00:16:44
Kalyan Kumar: believe that I'm saying something positive about a brand without
00:16:48
Kalyan Kumar: any incentive. OK, so when a is on an ad
00:16:53
Kalyan Kumar: talking about cycle, I don't think anyone's buying the fact
00:16:56
Kalyan Kumar: that uses it
00:16:57
Saikat Pyne: at at his home.
00:16:58
Kalyan Kumar: All the bank is fine. He's giving his credit with cool.
00:17:01
Kalyan Kumar: He's selling cool and association and credibility of things they
00:17:04
Kalyan Kumar: probably a good company with. Some, technically, even the role
00:17:08
Kalyan Kumar: of media has been there. If you see an animal,
00:17:10
Kalyan Kumar: you say this company must be legit, man, they've got
00:17:12
Kalyan Kumar: an adult. Maybe I can probably get CS so that
00:17:16
Kalyan Kumar: what's the role of the big influences is visibility and
00:17:20
Kalyan Kumar: that
00:17:20
Kalyan Kumar: that visibility optics right
00:17:24
Kalyan Kumar: As you go down. The macro influences are your credibility
00:17:27
Kalyan Kumar: and awareness drivers. And as you go down and bear
00:17:32
Kalyan Kumar: with me on this pyramid, let's say the micro inferences.
00:17:35
Kalyan Kumar: I have people like, almost like you and me, but
00:17:37
Kalyan Kumar: just a little bit bigger
00:17:39
Kalyan Kumar: and the n
00:17:40
Kalyan Kumar: So they have a circle of trust. I believe them
00:17:42
Kalyan Kumar: because they're not throw it on the but just talk
00:17:44
Kalyan Kumar: about stuff that I like that follow them and they
00:17:47
Kalyan Kumar: are likely to believe them.
00:17:49
Kalyan Kumar: So, yeah,
00:17:50
Kalyan Kumar: having said that, there are outliers, for example, beauty and
00:17:53
Kalyan Kumar: cosmetics on the
00:17:56
Kalyan Kumar: on the skin deep section, which is the the lipsticks
00:17:58
Kalyan Kumar: and makeup
00:18:00
Kalyan Kumar: drags on cool. So I want to see the coolest
00:18:03
Kalyan Kumar: people with the biggest people using it. So if I
00:18:05
Kalyan Kumar: see a Maybelline being used by a,
00:18:08
Kalyan Kumar: it's enough for me I don't need. There's no rational,
00:18:11
Kalyan Kumar: the emotional versus rational. It's all emotional, but the most
00:18:14
Kalyan Kumar: rational product. Hey, I have this phone blah, blah, blah,
00:18:18
Kalyan Kumar: and this works well. I want to hear it from
00:18:20
Kalyan Kumar: someone
00:18:21
Kalyan Kumar: who I want to take it down to trust or
00:18:24
Kalyan Kumar: even a serum, a beauty serum. I don't want to
00:18:26
Kalyan Kumar: see someone who I've been seen as being a glass skinned,
00:18:29
Kalyan Kumar: beautiful woman, and she's saying, Hey, listen, you don't need
00:18:32
Kalyan Kumar: it if you do it and you've already for it
00:18:33
Kalyan Kumar: before you got this
00:18:35
Kalyan Kumar: to that.
00:18:37
Kalyan Kumar: So I said, The hierarchy is very different. So the
00:18:40
Kalyan Kumar: micro inferences are the people who are able to have
00:18:43
Kalyan Kumar: audiences who believe in that
00:18:45
Kalyan Kumar: and therefore that there's this whole other conversation of influence,
00:18:47
Kalyan Kumar: that the guys would drive it. Imagine I'm selling a
00:18:52
Kalyan Kumar: as an influencer and say, Hey, big problem with the
00:18:54
Kalyan Kumar: big influences and I'm doing a campaign every other
00:18:57
Kalyan Kumar: it the equivalent of that constricted dinner. A timeline of
00:19:00
Kalyan Kumar: a day is in the morning. I meet and say
00:19:02
Kalyan Kumar: in the office. Hey, I screw it. Let's not have it.
00:19:04
Kalyan Kumar: Get the beer. Let's have a coca-cola. Then in the afternoon,
00:19:06
Kalyan Kumar: I say, Hey, listen, I normally have a coffee after lunch,
00:19:09
Kalyan Kumar: but let's have a Coke.
00:19:10
Kalyan Kumar: Then after for the smoke break, you go down and
00:19:12
Kalyan Kumar: you say, Hey, let's have another cook, man. Forget this smoke,
00:19:15
Kalyan Kumar: You said,
00:19:18
Kalyan Kumar: How much are you getting paid for,
00:19:20
Kalyan Kumar: right?
00:19:21
Kalyan Kumar: Yeah. So the other problem is 90% of the brands
00:19:24
Kalyan Kumar: in not in India, but every geography in the world
00:19:26
Kalyan Kumar: have been working with the top
00:19:28
Kalyan Kumar: earlier, it was 500 influences. Now maybe it's 2000. And
00:19:33
Kalyan Kumar: which is me talking about L'Oreal on Monday and a
00:19:35
Kalyan Kumar: Coca-cola on Wednesday and a Panasonic on Friday. True. So
00:19:38
Kalyan Kumar: he said, Cool. Why am I? Why is everyone saying
00:19:41
Kalyan Kumar: either find the great influences, not Grand State today, or
00:19:45
Kalyan Kumar: find the micro influences? Talk about a lot of things.
00:19:48
Kalyan Kumar: In fact, there's another insight, which was on the D
00:19:50
Kalyan Kumar: two c. I see too deep on fashion style.
00:19:54
Kalyan Kumar: Nobody sticks to one brand, right? I use a Maybelline
00:19:57
Kalyan Kumar: lipstick and I might use a mascara. I'm talking out
00:20:00
Kalyan Kumar: of my scope of my personal view But I'm just
00:20:02
Kalyan Kumar: saying brands so it cannot be a Lac means do
00:20:05
Kalyan Kumar: you ever want to work? I never want to work
00:20:07
Kalyan Kumar: with an influence who talk about a lawyer? I said, Look,
00:20:10
Kalyan Kumar: in fact, I would say, Get the lawyer in influences.
00:20:12
Kalyan Kumar: Let them to talk about another context to your product,
00:20:14
Kalyan Kumar: which is not the lipstick that she spoke about. But
00:20:17
Kalyan Kumar: this time is the mascara or whatever,
00:20:20
Kalyan Kumar: because that's how people behave. So you got to get
00:20:22
Kalyan Kumar: into how much work we do on consumer inciting and
00:20:25
Kalyan Kumar: human behaviour and cognitive science. Bring that into influence on
00:20:30
Kalyan Kumar: Can you actually take a hit? So there's a lot
00:20:32
Kalyan Kumar: to this, like I could go on and pull off it.
00:20:34
Kalyan Kumar: So I'm going to restrain and just let you ask
00:20:36
Kalyan Kumar: the best question.
00:20:37
Saikat Pyne: OK, so what, then, is the role of celebrity in
00:20:41
Saikat Pyne: this age of digital media? This is a recording question
00:20:44
Saikat Pyne: that has come up with with the chief operating officer
00:20:47
Saikat Pyne: of O. M L, the head of creator agencies that
00:20:49
Saikat Pyne: I've had on the show, and we come back to
00:20:52
Saikat Pyne: this question constantly about what it is that a celeb
00:20:57
Saikat Pyne: can now do.
00:20:59
Saikat Pyne: Is it purely that I can see a celeb while
00:21:03
Saikat Pyne: let's say while I'm driving on the highway or I'm
00:21:05
Saikat Pyne: driving through a freeway and I see a huge holding
00:21:08
Saikat Pyne: with the slab on it. If that holding gets replaced
00:21:12
Saikat Pyne: with a micro influencer, does anything change? Does a sleb
00:21:16
Saikat Pyne: have any inherent value? Given that more and more consumption
00:21:20
Saikat Pyne: is shifting
00:21:20
Kalyan Kumar: to digital, I would say it would be a wrong
00:21:22
Kalyan Kumar: thing to use.
00:21:25
Kalyan Kumar: So that's what a brand ambassador a celeb was as
00:21:29
Kalyan Kumar: an influence that is a brand.
00:21:31
Kalyan Kumar: So an influencer face, a micro influencer face on a
00:21:34
Kalyan Kumar: holy will serve you no purpose because her job is
00:21:38
Kalyan Kumar: or his job is to speak to her specific audience.
00:21:41
Kalyan Kumar: Tell them I think this is good
00:21:44
Kalyan Kumar: and celebrity role is to say, Hey, I'm cool and
00:21:48
Kalyan Kumar: I live this lifestyle and this, I think, is better.
00:21:51
Kalyan Kumar: So bringing visibility Metric and association of brand fitment. So
00:21:56
Kalyan Kumar: there is again. When I think of a celebrity, I
00:21:58
Kalyan Kumar: think of Fitment. What are my answers? I'm a warm brand.
00:22:03
Kalyan Kumar: Do I want a or do I want P Or
00:22:06
Kalyan Kumar: says who?
00:22:08
Kalyan Kumar: Various degrees of fitment parameters. Personas are where celebrities are.
00:22:14
Kalyan Kumar: I would say to the extent that an influencer need
00:22:17
Kalyan Kumar: not fit into your persona because if you are and
00:22:23
Kalyan Kumar: you're gonna look for she's a 23 year old boy
00:22:27
Kalyan Kumar: influencer talking about, I say, Listen, think of the audience
00:22:30
Kalyan Kumar: in this respect that actually I would go after all
00:22:33
Kalyan Kumar: these female influencers with 80% male and say, I'll be
00:22:36
Kalyan Kumar: your acting
00:22:37
Kalyan Kumar: So the role is based audience and what they like
00:22:40
Kalyan Kumar: to hear about the smaller influences, the bigger influences, the
00:22:43
Kalyan Kumar: bigger ones. So a lot of influence is bigger. They
00:22:45
Kalyan Kumar: get they leave the door of the into the door
00:22:48
Kalyan Kumar: of visible Absolutely absolutely.
00:22:51
Kalyan Kumar: So that's the role of celebrities I'm saying. Look, celebrities
00:22:54
Kalyan Kumar: and see, I'm not ready to anything I'm saying, Like
00:22:57
Kalyan Kumar: each one has a role. OK, fine lifestyle. Sorry. Life
00:23:00
Kalyan Kumar: cycle of your brand. You are like me like you
00:23:03
Kalyan Kumar: still really brought up.
00:23:04
Kalyan Kumar: You don't need the credible
00:23:07
Kalyan Kumar: true work. Everyone knows I just need the cool caution.
00:23:10
Kalyan Kumar: So I'm gonna take the big I'm gonna stay heavy
00:23:12
Kalyan Kumar: on the top with the big influences on the, um,
00:23:15
Kalyan Kumar: beauty lifestyle.
00:23:18
Kalyan Kumar: But if I'm a little brand who's talking about serums
00:23:21
Kalyan Kumar: and things that do all those wellness being all of that?
00:23:24
Kalyan Kumar: I want to go down. I'm not gonna believe after
00:23:26
Kalyan Kumar: a while, no matter what that celebrity yoga lady says,
00:23:30
Kalyan Kumar: because he says a lot of things right and just
00:23:33
Kalyan Kumar: the audiences
00:23:35
Kalyan Kumar: for the purpose you're trying to reach with them. If
00:23:37
Kalyan Kumar: you're not doing influencing you don't do that.
00:23:40
Kalyan Kumar: True that we call it influencer marketing. It's not influencer
00:23:43
Kalyan Kumar: marketing when you're doing in celebrities,
00:23:46
Kalyan Kumar: it has. So again, the purpose is like, fine. I
00:23:48
Kalyan Kumar: can't take a brand endorsement B. But hey, I can
00:23:50
Kalyan Kumar: buy a 22 Lac story post. So then use one. So, therefore,
00:23:55
Kalyan Kumar: that there's a number. All right, trigger your massive campaign
00:23:59
Kalyan Kumar: with one or two celebrities. Keep a heavier mega or
00:24:05
Kalyan Kumar: so let's sit and quit. B macros.
00:24:08
Kalyan Kumar: Keep
00:24:10
Kalyan Kumar: 200 m micros or 300 maybe go crazy with
00:24:16
Kalyan Kumar: 3000 nanos,
00:24:18
Kalyan Kumar: you know? So what are your roles in terms of timeline?
00:24:20
Kalyan Kumar: A money bite. You're a big and you can afford
00:24:23
Kalyan Kumar: many mega, and you have the relevance that I want.
00:24:25
Kalyan Kumar: I'm skin deep, so I'm gonna stay there, and then
00:24:28
Kalyan Kumar: the others are gonna be your awareness and credibility drivers
00:24:31
Kalyan Kumar: and true CD drivers and adopters and engages. That's your hierarchy.
00:24:36
Kalyan Kumar: And it sustained I 13 Celebrities can eat about 50
00:24:40
Kalyan Kumar: like 40 can last you that month.
00:24:44
Kalyan Kumar: And so you say, Look, who am I
00:24:47
Kalyan Kumar: burst Sustainer drivers sustenance and long term thing. I'm saying
00:24:52
Kalyan Kumar: influence of acting as an agenda should not even be campaigned.
00:24:55
Kalyan Kumar: Should be always on right, because job you influencing is
00:24:59
Kalyan Kumar: always in. No, no one's buying. Only, of course, you're
00:25:01
Kalyan Kumar: buying electronic. There are seasonal products, right? But how many
00:25:05
Kalyan Kumar: lifestyle products I need, especially food consumers? Is that things
00:25:09
Kalyan Kumar: that move fast,
00:25:10
Kalyan Kumar: right? So I asked 30 questions My my life cycle,
00:25:14
Kalyan Kumar: my relevance to rational versus emotional. What am I triggering?
00:25:17
Kalyan Kumar: Who's cool? What is the hierarchy and therefore the spa
00:25:20
Kalyan Kumar: break up? And therefore I said, Look, you do
00:25:23
Kalyan Kumar: even if you take two mega celebrity or celebrities that's
00:25:27
Kalyan Kumar: gonna eat 30% of budget, Hm.
00:25:31
Kalyan Kumar: And, uh, you can use that remaining 70 very beautifully
00:25:34
Kalyan Kumar: to cast hair, depending on your needs.
00:25:37
Kalyan Kumar: Ask the right questions and cannot be one. Size fits
00:25:40
Kalyan Kumar: all in the mix of the kind of influences.
00:25:44
Saikat Pyne: So there are our brands coming up with newer models
00:25:48
Saikat Pyne: for partnership
00:25:49
Kalyan Kumar: with creators attribution is a big problem. So what we
00:25:53
Kalyan Kumar: are saying is, if you want to do intensity commerce,
00:25:56
Kalyan Kumar: which is a big marching order by most brands, look,
00:25:59
Kalyan Kumar: I want to trade commerce.
00:26:01
Kalyan Kumar: Yeah, then it that that relationship to say, Am I
00:26:05
Kalyan Kumar: giving that influencer or the right attribution so not everybody
00:26:10
Kalyan Kumar: hears the content is gonna take that queue or the
00:26:12
Kalyan Kumar: code to buy. Now they may choose to buy later.
00:26:15
Kalyan Kumar: Imagine they go to Amazon
00:26:17
Kalyan Kumar: and see the same product at the same deal that influences.
00:26:19
Kalyan Kumar: What's my incentive to use the core? True something is
00:26:23
Kalyan Kumar: the channel some exclusivity give. It is the channel, your
00:26:27
Kalyan Kumar: first channel that says OK only with me at this deal.
00:26:31
Kalyan Kumar: Second is a lot of brands also saying Let's fill
00:26:35
Kalyan Kumar: the community of influencers who will do a lot of
00:26:37
Kalyan Kumar: work
00:26:38
Kalyan Kumar: that consistently and continuously we think that
00:26:42
Kalyan Kumar: he pull that very carefully because it means that you
00:26:45
Kalyan Kumar: are essentially trying to do a lot of deal that hey,
00:26:48
Kalyan Kumar: I work throughout the year
00:26:50
Kalyan Kumar: now. The same problem of repetition comes. I don't want
00:26:52
Kalyan Kumar: to hear about the same black lipstick or Coca Cola
00:26:55
Kalyan Kumar: C printer. Some like that five times a day or
00:27:00
Kalyan Kumar: six times a year.
00:27:02
Kalyan Kumar: Just a
00:27:03
Kalyan Kumar: to be saying that attribution an influencer may influence someone
00:27:08
Kalyan Kumar: but she somebody may go and buy some time and
00:27:11
Kalyan Kumar: there's no attribution to the influencer having enacted that sale.
00:27:15
Kalyan Kumar: Third is there's a long period of people who can
00:27:17
Kalyan Kumar: make it work. People who are making great content will
00:27:19
Kalyan Kumar: not discover
00:27:21
Kalyan Kumar: the human construct of a managed service that needs enabled
00:27:25
Kalyan Kumar: medical technology is how to find those three million other
00:27:29
Kalyan Kumar: people in India or anywhere in the world
00:27:32
Kalyan Kumar: making a concept in a very small
00:27:36
Kalyan Kumar: I just look like straight to the micro input. So
00:27:38
Kalyan Kumar: I have the nano inputs,
00:27:40
Kalyan Kumar: so on that to say, Look what's happening now. How's
00:27:43
Kalyan Kumar: the relationship changing? There been a lot of formal and
00:27:46
Kalyan Kumar: intensive marketing, right? Hey, of course this is doing it.
00:27:48
Kalyan Kumar: So let me do it. This one is doing so
00:27:51
Kalyan Kumar: I'm doing. I'm doing it to somebody else that's doing it.
00:27:54
Kalyan Kumar: And everyone is now asking questions if I did it.
00:27:56
Kalyan Kumar: So why the earlier numbers were OK. How many people
00:27:59
Kalyan Kumar: saw my content, how many engaged and then you know
00:28:02
Kalyan Kumar: what is typically a rich frequency? Mathematics work for paid media, right?
00:28:06
Kalyan Kumar: Those are your drivers, and it has a very known
00:28:11
Kalyan Kumar: science that the drivers should be an influencer. So I'm saying, Question,
00:28:15
Kalyan Kumar: why are you doing influence marketing?
00:28:17
Kalyan Kumar: If you want to influence, who are the guys? Do
00:28:20
Kalyan Kumar: you want that pyramid of saying, Who are my visibility drivers,
00:28:23
Kalyan Kumar: My awareness drivers, my consideration drivers, my engagement drivers, my
00:28:27
Kalyan Kumar: purchase drivers and then given my cycle and my and
00:28:31
Kalyan Kumar: so many questions to ask when. See,
00:28:34
Kalyan Kumar: drop all the questions if you like, but at least
00:28:36
Kalyan Kumar: them and then choose to ignore them with your eyes
00:28:38
Kalyan Kumar: open So the relationships are changing. Where, of course, your
00:28:43
Kalyan Kumar: comma is the top of the ground. Lots of platforms
00:28:45
Kalyan Kumar: coming up and saying, We've not got like the influencer
00:28:49
Kalyan Kumar: will sell,
00:28:51
Kalyan Kumar: but
00:28:52
Kalyan Kumar: it's always the. Actually, it's not even the 80 20.
00:28:55
Kalyan Kumar: It's like the 95 5 relationship where you share about
00:28:59
Kalyan Kumar: this influencer did overnight sales of $5 million for this brand, right?
00:29:03
Kalyan Kumar: But the fact is, there are five such people
00:29:06
Kalyan Kumar: out of 100
00:29:07
Kalyan Kumar: and you will not sell. Also, an influencer will be
00:29:12
Kalyan Kumar: willing to sell your product depending on how her knowledge
00:29:15
Kalyan Kumar: of So let's say, if I'm selling a beauty product,
00:29:18
Kalyan Kumar: I know if I say something to my audiences, I
00:29:21
Kalyan Kumar: will be able to sell five units and therefore I'm
00:29:24
Kalyan Kumar: willing to be paid for those five sales that I created.
00:29:26
Kalyan Kumar: What is It's a detergent. I said. Look, I it's
00:29:30
Kalyan Kumar: a low involvement product and somebody will go buy it.
00:29:32
Kalyan Kumar: Maybe they'll hear about it from me,
00:29:34
Kalyan Kumar: so I'm not willing to have performance play responsibilities as
00:29:37
Kalyan Kumar: an influencer.
00:29:40
Kalyan Kumar: So deep thought. You listen, ask the questions, can build
00:29:43
Kalyan Kumar: the onion just like video consumer inciting. What is it
00:29:46
Kalyan Kumar: that will trigger PSA? To buy a product is to say, Hey,
00:29:50
Kalyan Kumar: I will give social affirmation. Similarly, what is it for
00:29:53
Kalyan Kumar: your brand that are a behavioural aspect that relate and
00:29:57
Kalyan Kumar: test those numbers? Well, it it always put numbers before subjectivity.
00:30:01
Kalyan Kumar: Subjectivity should be your last pass, so
00:30:04
Kalyan Kumar: I packed a lot of subjectivity into that response, but
00:30:07
Kalyan Kumar: I gave the directions. But I'm happy to take more
00:30:09
Kalyan Kumar: questions on that point if you want to.
00:30:12
Saikat Pyne: As the first generation of digital creators go mainstream, right,
00:30:17
Saikat Pyne: how is their social following going to look different
00:30:22
Kalyan Kumar: so again that 15 minutes of fame thing always is there.
00:30:25
Kalyan Kumar: Nobody was. Big has. There's always a shelf life to fame,
00:30:29
Kalyan Kumar: and the role remains the same the moment you are
00:30:32
Kalyan Kumar: be Baum at a zone. And he's talking about, let's say,
00:30:35
Kalyan Kumar: a handset own thing. He can drive cool. Or can
00:30:39
Kalyan Kumar: he drive adoption? Yeah, people believe and all therefore goes
00:30:43
Kalyan Kumar: down to the game. Who is the audience and what
00:30:46
Kalyan Kumar: is their engagement?
00:30:48
Kalyan Kumar: And let's see, possibly can I know the audiences affinities
00:30:51
Kalyan Kumar: of them, willing to listen. So reach versus depth is
00:30:56
Kalyan Kumar: a query that will remain so, Yeah, this it's happening.
00:30:58
Kalyan Kumar: In fact, that's what I said earlier. The many
00:31:01
Kalyan Kumar: Disney's first creators have now become celebrities. Many celebrities, right,
00:31:06
Kalyan Kumar: have digital things. But did they go into the content depth?
00:31:10
Kalyan Kumar: Very few of saying, Look, do people believe me when
00:31:13
Kalyan Kumar: I say this is really good for you or I
00:31:16
Kalyan Kumar: just kept the association. I've seen an ad, so my
00:31:20
Kalyan Kumar: credibility brain of saying, OK, they have an ad. They
00:31:22
Kalyan Kumar: have a good customer. Service is probably a good brand
00:31:24
Kalyan Kumar: to be able to hold a for an ad. Someone says, Hey, listen,
00:31:28
Kalyan Kumar: you know what? I use this for three days and
00:31:29
Kalyan Kumar: then it's gonna be three months from now. And but
00:31:32
Kalyan Kumar: you know what? It's working well for me. Those considerations
00:31:34
Kalyan Kumar: will keep changing, but
00:31:36
Kalyan Kumar: and taking it from where you said that, look it,
00:31:38
Kalyan Kumar: people will become celebrities, and they they become mad celebrities.
00:31:42
Kalyan Kumar: There's something called the YouTube fan fest,
00:31:46
Kalyan Kumar: and celebrities want to be there in attendance to meet
00:31:49
Kalyan Kumar: the superwoman and all of that because they're so cool
00:31:52
Kalyan Kumar: in a car way.
00:31:54
Kalyan Kumar: But the scale because
00:31:56
Kalyan Kumar: on any good day, a Facebook ad or a media
00:32:00
Kalyan Kumar: ad or a TV ad, which gives you the lowest
00:32:02
Kalyan Kumar: cost to reach be any influences reach events. So influence
00:32:08
Kalyan Kumar: versus reach. Ask this question. See the relevance for your
00:32:11
Kalyan Kumar: brand in your brand life cycle. And do you need that?
00:32:15
Kalyan Kumar: And the truth shall surface. Questions is still the only
00:32:19
Kalyan Kumar: way to navigate this planet,
00:32:23
Saikat Pyne: right? The last question I had was around metrics. We
00:32:26
Saikat Pyne: are speaking about how followership and engagement rate often are
00:32:32
Saikat Pyne: the primary metric for creative partnerships, and that has led
00:32:37
Saikat Pyne: to this undercurrent of fake social media follow hours and
00:32:41
Saikat Pyne: fake engagement and so on and so forth. What are
00:32:43
Saikat Pyne: the key metrics that you would ask marketers or founders
00:32:48
Saikat Pyne: to keep an eye out for while they're striking that
00:32:50
Saikat Pyne: next influencer partnership?
00:32:55
Kalyan Kumar: First one would be hygiene audience strength.
00:32:59
Kalyan Kumar: Second, is audience relevance
00:33:02
Kalyan Kumar: in other might. Then I would say engagement rate
00:33:06
Kalyan Kumar: OK
00:33:07
Kalyan Kumar: and in the engagement rate, OK, and I have a
00:33:10
Kalyan Kumar: there as well.
00:33:12
Kalyan Kumar: Ok, uh, engagement rate. And how much of that engagement
00:33:15
Kalyan Kumar: is real? It's possible using to see how much of
00:33:18
Kalyan Kumar: the likes are
00:33:19
Saikat Pyne: real versus fake. And on that insightful note, it's a wrap.
00:33:22
Saikat Pyne: Thank you so much for being on the show. I
00:33:24
Saikat Pyne: really appreciate you taking time out for this. Guys do
00:33:27
Saikat Pyne: tune in next week for the next episode of the
00:33:29
Saikat Pyne: UN podcast. See ya.