In this episode of the Thrifty Titans Podcast, we had an insightful conversation with Avinash Shekhar, the CEO of ZebPay - India's oldest and most popular crypto asset exchange. Our discussion revolved around the future of the cryptocurrency market in India, decoding the latest cryptocurrency news India has been buzzing with, and what the mass exodus of crypto exchanges means for our nation's job market. We also delved into the effects of cryptocurrency RBI regulations on trading and how crypto trading going underground would impact the Indian economy.
Whether you're new to crypto India or a seasoned pro, or even if you aspire to join a cryptocurrency-related brand, this episode is sure to be valuable for you.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. I'm sa marketer, creative and all around Alpha nerd.
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Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the you incorporated podcast On this show, I
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Saikat Pyne: catch up with some truly bad ass entrepreneurs, business leaders,
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Saikat Pyne: marketers and content creators to discuss thoughts, stories and ideas
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Saikat Pyne: at the intersection of business influence and design. If you
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Saikat Pyne: want to stay ahead of the curve and build your
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Saikat Pyne: brand your voice your way, you're in the right place.
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Saikat Pyne: Hello. Hello. Welcome to the U Incorporated podcast with me.
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Saikat Pyne: Please join me in welcoming Avina Shekhar, the CEO of
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Saikat Pyne: Z P. India's oldest and most widely used Bitcoin and
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Saikat Pyne: Crypto Asset exchange. Z p has over four million users
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Saikat Pyne: and over $3 billion worth of transactions globally.
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Saikat Pyne: Welcome to the show of Via
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Avinash Shekhar: Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. Really excited to be here.
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Saikat Pyne: I was extremely fortunate to be in the marketing and
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Saikat Pyne: communications team at P. T. M. Back when Mr Modi
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Saikat Pyne: announced demonetization. It was looked upon as this watershed moment
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Saikat Pyne: for digital payments
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Saikat Pyne: right in India. But crypto seems to be this one
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Saikat Pyne: sector that has polarised multiple governments. There are governments that
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Saikat Pyne: are so pro crypto that are adopting Bitcoin as currencies
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Saikat Pyne: and then there are governments that are charging 30 40%
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Saikat Pyne: tax on crypto. So what is it about the sector?
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Saikat Pyne: You think that polarises governments and
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Saikat Pyne: Rs Actually
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Avinash Shekhar: there are some valid concerns and there is also failure rates,
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Avinash Shekhar: so to say, because it's a totally new industry. So
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Avinash Shekhar: we have seen failure rate. So there is a mix
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Avinash Shekhar: of all these things I'll touch up on like all
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Avinash Shekhar: these three things one by 11 is that crypto seems
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Avinash Shekhar: to be Or at least like there's the perception which
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Avinash Shekhar: is there in the in the mind of the government
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Avinash Shekhar: is that
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Avinash Shekhar: crypto target actions are not trace. OK, you don't know
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Avinash Shekhar: who is transferring to hope that at some level is
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Avinash Shekhar: correct But at some level it is not correct because
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Avinash Shekhar: crypto you have to understand especially Bitcoin is the most
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Avinash Shekhar: transparent technology in the world Right through
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Avinash Shekhar: OK, you can actually look at go to the the
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Avinash Shekhar: Blockchain and look at what are the transactions which has
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Avinash Shekhar: happened and it since beginning till now All the transactions
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Avinash Shekhar: are available there Ok, so I think one concern is
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Avinash Shekhar: coming from that how to regulate it and in fact,
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Avinash Shekhar: if you don't regulate it, then the chances of transactions
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Avinash Shekhar: happening and the governments don't not coming to know about
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Avinash Shekhar: those transactions is significantly high. And if you put regulations
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Avinash Shekhar: in place, let's say 99% of the transactions are happening
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Avinash Shekhar: through regulated exchanges.
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Avinash Shekhar: Then it becomes
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Avinash Shekhar: significantly easier for the government to track those transactions and
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Avinash Shekhar: ensure that no illegal activities are happening. Right. So these
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Avinash Shekhar: two extreme that go, that regulators thinking that they can't
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Avinash Shekhar: be tracked or it is difficult to track. And but
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Avinash Shekhar: at the same time there are venues available for this.
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Avinash Shekhar: So at some time at this point, I think there
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Avinash Shekhar: is a need for both the government and the industry
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Avinash Shekhar: to work together
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Avinash Shekhar: and understand each other. What are the concerns of each other?
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Avinash Shekhar: How crypto is going to benefit as to the society?
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Avinash Shekhar: And how do we ensure that the whatever concerns of
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Avinash Shekhar: the governments are that those concerns are adequately addressed? So
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Avinash Shekhar: that is, I think that in terms of projects failing,
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Avinash Shekhar: So what happens is that we have seen, for example,
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Avinash Shekhar: lunar affair US t going to
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Avinash Shekhar: OK, so what is happening is that we have to
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Avinash Shekhar: understand that crypto still remains a a risky asset class.
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Avinash Shekhar: It's still a volatile asset class. OK, so from a
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Avinash Shekhar: customer point of view, what is happening is that if
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Avinash Shekhar: you're taking leverage, if you are not understanding where you're
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Avinash Shekhar: investing OK and the project fails,
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Avinash Shekhar: then obviously it creates a very big problem because to
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Avinash Shekhar: a large extent some of these crypto are like start ups.
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Avinash Shekhar: And you know that the failure rate in startups is
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Avinash Shekhar: very high, right? It is not necessarily, although sometimes this
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Avinash Shekhar: is the case. It is not necessarily because of the
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Avinash Shekhar: intention of the people who are leading the project, and
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Avinash Shekhar: obviously there are bad actors in every industry. OK, so
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Avinash Shekhar: that
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Avinash Shekhar: should be regulated. But But any time it is like
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Avinash Shekhar: the nature of the project itself is that either you
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Avinash Shekhar: will have a smashing success or it will fade right
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Avinash Shekhar: like a start. So that also concerns the government. Because
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Avinash Shekhar: if the normal public is investing in these projects, and
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Avinash Shekhar: and then what happens is that if let's say the
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Avinash Shekhar: customer loses the money,
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Avinash Shekhar: then from a government point of view, it's not a
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Avinash Shekhar: good sign because in a way, at some level, government
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Avinash Shekhar: wants to protect the interest of the customers. But tell me,
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Saikat Pyne: Avinash, what is unique about the Indian black economy? So
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Saikat Pyne: to say, India has a booming black economy and it
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Saikat Pyne: has a payment instrument that is very widely accessible. That's
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Saikat Pyne: very widely used, such as cash. What is so special
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Saikat Pyne: about crypto that
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Saikat Pyne: that alarm bells start ringing?
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Avinash Shekhar: So basically that there are pluses and they are minuses
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Avinash Shekhar: if you look at from the both from the government
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Avinash Shekhar: point of view and from the point of view of
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Avinash Shekhar: the person who is engaging in hawala or engaging in,
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Avinash Shekhar: for example, underground transaction. OK, so this kind of transaction
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Avinash Shekhar: is not may say that black economy is not new
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Avinash Shekhar: in India and it will not end if we decide
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Avinash Shekhar: to ban crypto from tomorrow. In fact, in that may
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Avinash Shekhar: actually increase the problem. Rather, the thing is that
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Avinash Shekhar: at one level, obviously, because they are exchange controls in
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Avinash Shekhar: India and in India, control the amount of money which
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Avinash Shekhar: you can take out of India and bring into it OK,
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Avinash Shekhar: and this hawala thing and everything is obviously a violation
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Avinash Shekhar: of all those rules. OK, so to some extent, if
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Avinash Shekhar: you can say that OK, if they are doing this
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Avinash Shekhar: kind of transactions through crypto OK, you can technically transfer
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Avinash Shekhar: crypto from, Let's say, one wallet to another poet in
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Avinash Shekhar: location agnostic.
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Avinash Shekhar: It doesn't know the location, whether it is in India
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Avinash Shekhar: or outside India. OK, but at the same time you
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Avinash Shekhar: have to understand that unlike cash
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Avinash Shekhar: where nothing can be traced
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Avinash Shekhar: in case of capital, every transaction can be traced for
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Avinash Shekhar: unlimited amount of time, right? OK, which basically means is
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Avinash Shekhar: that
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Avinash Shekhar: initially it may seems like an easy task of doing
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Avinash Shekhar: using crypto for a legitimate manner. But most of the
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Avinash Shekhar: people don't realise is that the chances of getting caught
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Avinash Shekhar: increasing exponentially if government actually goes and regulates the interest? Imagine,
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Avinash Shekhar: let's say, because it's like a chain. Imagine there are five.
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Avinash Shekhar: Transaction person, uh, sends Bitcoin to person B sell 2
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Avinash Shekhar: 30 person C sends to person B.
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Avinash Shekhar: Now, if all the exchanges are regulated and 99.99% transactions
00:07:13
Avinash Shekhar: are happening through exchanges, then if the government CA catches
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Avinash Shekhar: hold of any one of these five people, OK,
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Avinash Shekhar: then it's easier to catch hold of the other four, right? OK,
00:07:25
Avinash Shekhar: in case of cash handing Get handing over cash from
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Avinash Shekhar: one hand to another hand Once this handover is gone, OK,
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Avinash Shekhar: then it becomes like, really difficult to trace it back,
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Avinash Shekhar: so to say OK, so in fact, that's why if
00:07:38
Avinash Shekhar: you regulate it properly, OK, on the crypto side, it
00:07:42
Avinash Shekhar: actually will boost in the sense the terms from a
00:07:45
Avinash Shekhar: government point of view,
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Avinash Shekhar: the compliance and the regulation government will be able to
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Avinash Shekhar: better regulate the merit of black money and but
00:07:55
Saikat Pyne: better regulation. What do you mean? A Let's dig a
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Saikat Pyne: bit deeper into that,
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Avinash Shekhar: So there are 23 parts to it. OK, part number
00:08:04
Avinash Shekhar: one is which is, which is obviously most prominent and
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Avinash Shekhar: most talked about is regulating crypto exchanges. OK, and I
00:08:12
Avinash Shekhar: mean the regulation can be largely or like two can
00:08:15
Avinash Shekhar: be based on the way the government regulates banks or
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Avinash Shekhar: the financial institutions
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Avinash Shekhar: OK, which is basically putting k y c norms in place,
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Avinash Shekhar: putting liquidity norms in place, putting norms to protect customer funds,
00:08:27
Avinash Shekhar: all those things which to some extent industry is doing
00:08:30
Avinash Shekhar: on their own, but to whether everyone be doing this
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Avinash Shekhar: or not doing it. No one knows there's no audits No,
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Avinash Shekhar: there's no
00:08:35
Avinash Shekhar: mandate from the government. It is more of a voluntary
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Avinash Shekhar: as it. OK, there is 1/20 exchange which comes in
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Avinash Shekhar: India 20 25th Exchange, which comes in India. We really
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Avinash Shekhar: don't know whether they're doing it or not. OK, and
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Avinash Shekhar: what happens is because of this anyone, a bad apple,
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Avinash Shekhar: Obviously then the entire industry is It brings like a
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Avinash Shekhar: bad name for the entire industry. OK, so regulating exchanges
00:08:58
Avinash Shekhar: or any other financial institution issues putting similar regulation in place,
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Avinash Shekhar: obviously which are specific to crypto.
00:09:06
Avinash Shekhar: OK, that is one part
00:09:08
Avinash Shekhar: second part, I think which is much more important than
00:09:11
Avinash Shekhar: the first part because exchange, frankly is a very simple business. OK,
00:09:16
Avinash Shekhar: The main business is people who are actually working in
00:09:19
Avinash Shekhar: Web three space or in the Blockchain space and they
00:09:22
Avinash Shekhar: are finding solution or building products to solve a particular
00:09:25
Avinash Shekhar: problem right now here. The point is that because it
00:09:29
Avinash Shekhar: is in Web three or crypto space, they there has
00:09:32
Avinash Shekhar: to be native token associated with with that framework, that project. OK,
00:09:37
Avinash Shekhar: now, just because there is a token available as associated
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Avinash Shekhar: with that project and that guy is not sure about
00:09:44
Avinash Shekhar: How will the government proceed in next one or two
00:09:46
Avinash Shekhar: or three years? OK, about whether that will be legal illegal,
00:09:50
Avinash Shekhar: Whether that will be how it will be taxed and
00:09:52
Avinash Shekhar: all that, or it will be taxed like like a
00:09:54
Avinash Shekhar: gambling git card. OK,
00:09:56
Avinash Shekhar: uh,
00:09:57
Avinash Shekhar: that is what is basically scaring people in terms of
00:10:02
Avinash Shekhar: whether they should do those projects in India or outside India. Right?
00:10:07
Avinash Shekhar: And the next billion, there will be, literally, at least
00:10:09
Avinash Shekhar: in my opinion, hundreds and thousands of billion dollar companies
00:10:13
Avinash Shekhar: or like multibillion dollar companies which will be created in
00:10:16
Avinash Shekhar: this space in next five years to 10 years. OK,
00:10:19
Avinash Shekhar: now we need to decide as a country is that
00:10:23
Avinash Shekhar: whether those companies will be built in India or those
00:10:26
Avinash Shekhar: countries will be built out outside India, So that, I think,
00:10:29
Avinash Shekhar: is a bigger concern, more bigger concern than what happens
00:10:33
Avinash Shekhar: to the exchange. You touched
00:10:34
Saikat Pyne: upon
00:10:35
Saikat Pyne: the talent aspect of it. So what does the move
00:10:40
Saikat Pyne: of the government then do to India as a job
00:10:44
Saikat Pyne: market as well?
00:10:45
Avinash Shekhar: Yeah, So obviously a crypto as a space obviously has
00:10:49
Avinash Shekhar: the potential to create significant amount of job opportunities. OK, again,
00:10:54
Avinash Shekhar: we have to bifurcate it to two parts. One is
00:10:55
Avinash Shekhar: exchange exchanges. Technically, an exchange can't move out, move out
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Avinash Shekhar: of India. They can establish businesses outside India for that country.
00:11:04
Avinash Shekhar: But if you have to, let's say trade in an
00:11:07
Avinash Shekhar: I and R player, you have to be in India.
00:11:09
Avinash Shekhar: You can't trade an iron r payer on a foreign exchange.
00:11:12
Avinash Shekhar: Basically OK, so exchanges in one part. What is happening
00:11:16
Avinash Shekhar: in exchanges is that obviously the volumes are significantly going
00:11:19
Avinash Shekhar: down and the, uh whether those volumes are moving somewhere
00:11:23
Avinash Shekhar: else or whether they are or some part of it,
00:11:27
Avinash Shekhar: is moving somewhere else that we don't know. I think
00:11:29
Avinash Shekhar: what is
00:11:30
Avinash Shekhar: happening on the second part, You right? Is that all
00:11:33
Avinash Shekhar: these
00:11:35
Avinash Shekhar: projects which are trying to build some product on the web?
00:11:38
Avinash Shekhar: Three space. They are, uh, in a way, moving out
00:11:41
Avinash Shekhar: of India. And obviously the jobs they are creating, which was, uh,
00:11:46
Avinash Shekhar: which was supposed to be created in India. A last
00:11:49
Avinash Shekhar: part of that job will be created outside India. OK,
00:11:53
Avinash Shekhar: obviously we don't know the numbers how large that number
00:11:55
Avinash Shekhar: will be, but if you're talking about thousands or hundreds
00:11:57
Avinash Shekhar: of billion dollar company Next four or five years, that
00:11:59
Avinash Shekhar: number will be very large.
00:12:02
Avinash Shekhar: I think even more important aspect of this is that
00:12:06
Avinash Shekhar: if you are building for example, if you're building a
00:12:10
Avinash Shekhar: I Googled in India OK, the IP is created in India. OK,
00:12:15
Avinash Shekhar: And as an economy we get the benefit of that
00:12:17
Avinash Shekhar: IP in terms of revenue in terms of job creation
00:12:21
Avinash Shekhar: in terms of taxation, right for a very long time. OK,
00:12:24
Avinash Shekhar: But if that IP is created outside India, then wherever
00:12:29
Avinash Shekhar: that IP is created, all these associated benefits over a
00:12:33
Avinash Shekhar: longer term period will go to that economy, not to India.
00:12:36
Avinash Shekhar: OK, and all these benefits also have a ripple effect
00:12:39
Avinash Shekhar: on everything else in terms of strength, of the economy,
00:12:41
Avinash Shekhar: in terms of GDP in terms of job creation, everything else.
00:12:46
Saikat Pyne: If in a country as big as ours, if crypto
00:12:50
Saikat Pyne: assets and crypto trading goes underground, what does that mean
00:12:54
Saikat Pyne: for the economy and and the sector?
00:12:57
Avinash Shekhar: Mhm
00:12:59
Avinash Shekhar: And so, basically again, there are 22 points here is
00:13:01
Avinash Shekhar: one is that you can never quantify. What is the number? 10%
00:13:05
Avinash Shekhar: are moved or, like, 50% has moved. That is one
00:13:07
Avinash Shekhar: second is that again? The thing is that if
00:13:13
Avinash Shekhar: the the size of the underground economy increases OK, it
00:13:18
Avinash Shekhar: is obviously not. It is a negative for the overall economy. OK,
00:13:22
Avinash Shekhar: because government loses revenue, government loses the ability to track
00:13:27
Avinash Shekhar: illegal activities. OK, a government loses the ability to track
00:13:32
Avinash Shekhar: track corruption in a certain way. OK, so all those
00:13:36
Avinash Shekhar: things which are like you can see if it is
00:13:38
Avinash Shekhar: happening through a legitimate way you can, like
00:13:41
Avinash Shekhar: you can put light on everything and see what is happening.
00:13:44
Avinash Shekhar: So to say, OK, that ability goes down the gate
00:13:48
Avinash Shekhar: or disappears. Yeah, you have to look at these two parts.
00:13:51
Avinash Shekhar: One is that obviously as economic, it's not good, and
00:13:54
Avinash Shekhar: second is that we don't know what is about speaking
00:13:57
Avinash Shekhar: about
00:13:57
Saikat Pyne: crypto as an asset value of some of the biggest
00:14:01
Saikat Pyne: popular currencies have tanked. What's your take on
00:14:06
Saikat Pyne: whether there's a bubble? There was a bubble in crypto,
00:14:09
Saikat Pyne: which is bursting. What's your take on how the crypto
00:14:12
Saikat Pyne: market is shaping up in the recent months?
00:14:16
Avinash Shekhar: Yeah, so actually, again, what has happened is that if
00:14:20
Avinash Shekhar: you look at last two years, the money supply has
00:14:24
Avinash Shekhar: increased significantly right, OK. And a large part of that
00:14:28
Avinash Shekhar: money is has entered into crypto space. OK? And while
00:14:33
Avinash Shekhar: while that reversal of squeezing the money supply is happening
00:14:37
Avinash Shekhar: which is in a way so you say like a
00:14:38
Avinash Shekhar: macro level, it's impacting every asset class and still being
00:14:44
Avinash Shekhar: counted as a risky asset class.
00:14:46
Avinash Shekhar: So it has a is a larger or a bigger
00:14:48
Avinash Shekhar: impact on due to macroeconomic conditions. That is one
00:14:52
Avinash Shekhar: second is what happened, I think, is that we saw
00:14:55
Avinash Shekhar: obviously very big Bull the last two years, 1.5 years
00:14:59
Avinash Shekhar: on crypto prices went up from 78 to $10 to $67.
00:15:05
Avinash Shekhar: And because of that, what has happened is that people
00:15:08
Avinash Shekhar: at the institutional level, even at an individual level, actually
00:15:12
Avinash Shekhar: but at the institution level in a big way they
00:15:14
Avinash Shekhar: bought village basically OK, they borrowed the money and and
00:15:18
Avinash Shekhar: bought crypto OK,
00:15:21
Avinash Shekhar: which is obviously if everything is going up, it is
00:15:23
Avinash Shekhar: very well, OK, but if starts, things go starts going down,
00:15:27
Avinash Shekhar: it it it has a cascading effect, OK, and that's
00:15:31
Avinash Shekhar: what we saw actually last few months that many of
00:15:34
Avinash Shekhar: the companies went bankrupt because they had leverage positions. OK,
00:15:38
Avinash Shekhar: many of the companies were actually giving very high returns.
00:15:42
Avinash Shekhar: Interest rates, so to say, or passive returns on crypto OK,
00:15:46
Avinash Shekhar: and And those returns are also based on market going up. OK,
00:15:51
Avinash Shekhar: so it's like
00:15:52
Avinash Shekhar: you can't like someone can't offer like a 15 17 18%
00:15:56
Avinash Shekhar: return on stable coins. So to say, in a risk
00:15:59
Avinash Shekhar: free manner. OK, there has to be all by people's mind,
00:16:02
Avinash Shekhar: if it is a stable asset and getting like an 18%
00:16:05
Avinash Shekhar: rate of interest, every they think it's like it's risk
00:16:08
Avinash Shekhar: free in their mind, it's not obviously risk free because
00:16:11
Avinash Shekhar: the guy who's giving that interest
00:16:14
Avinash Shekhar: is investing in some risky asset to generate that kind
00:16:16
Avinash Shekhar: of return. OK, all those leverage positions actually also contributed
00:16:21
Avinash Shekhar: in a cascading way in terms of bringing down the market,
00:16:24
Avinash Shekhar: sort of. So I think these are the maybe one
00:16:27
Avinash Shekhar: or two factors and plus, obviously the inherently crypto and
00:16:30
Avinash Shekhar: Bitcoin is a volatile asset class. It's still not a
00:16:33
Avinash Shekhar: mature asset class, so that's obviously the third factor. Do
00:16:36
Saikat Pyne: you believe that crypto will return to its, uh, sort
00:16:41
Saikat Pyne: of valuations anytime soon?
00:16:43
Saikat Pyne: at least the major currencies. What's your take on that?
00:16:47
Avinash Shekhar: So I can talk about I think at least Bitcoin
00:16:50
Avinash Shekhar: because others are different and Bitcoin is different. It's my
00:16:52
Avinash Shekhar: second time, so to say, when I joined when I
00:16:54
Avinash Shekhar: started my crypto journey in middle of 2017, 5 years back,
00:16:58
Avinash Shekhar: Bitcoin Price was around 2.5 $1. It went up to
00:17:02
Avinash Shekhar: $20 again came down to 3.5 $1000. OK, so the
00:17:07
Avinash Shekhar: $60 and now 20. Basically, it's like second time I'm
00:17:10
Avinash Shekhar: seeing it and people who are older in the industry
00:17:13
Avinash Shekhar: than me, they have seen it like three or four
00:17:14
Avinash Shekhar: times the same thing, repeating basically OK, so I don't know.
00:17:19
Avinash Shekhar: Obviously I can't predict the price what the price will be.
00:17:22
Avinash Shekhar: But what I know is that as a technology as
00:17:24
Avinash Shekhar: a decentralised technology, OK, that has
00:17:28
Avinash Shekhar: a very good future. It is going to revolutionise the
00:17:31
Avinash Shekhar: way we transact the way we anything which works on
00:17:35
Avinash Shekhar: a centralised system, OK, that can be done in a
00:17:39
Avinash Shekhar: decentralised manner in a much in a more
00:17:43
Avinash Shekhar: transparent way, much more safer way and more democratic way.
00:17:47
Avinash Shekhar: So as a concept as an industry, I think it
00:17:49
Avinash Shekhar: has a very great future. Whether it will take 23 years,
00:17:52
Avinash Shekhar: whether it will take 5, 10 years to mature, I
00:17:54
Avinash Shekhar: don't know, and and if it succeeds and I think
00:17:57
Avinash Shekhar: it will succeed, then the price is like a A
00:18:00
Avinash Shekhar: byproduct so to OK, so you have to look at
00:18:04
Avinash Shekhar: that way that you are basically investing.
00:18:07
Avinash Shekhar: You have got an opportunity to invest in it. You
00:18:09
Avinash Shekhar: have got an opportunity to invest in Internet. And when
00:18:12
Avinash Shekhar: the Internet started, obviously they lost sorts, ups and downs.
00:18:15
Avinash Shekhar: They will dot com bubble and all that OK, but
00:18:18
Avinash Shekhar: if you get an opportunity to invest in Internet itself,
00:18:22
Avinash Shekhar: the Internet protocol itself, that obviously
00:18:25
Avinash Shekhar: then you then you don't care about the price that
00:18:27
Avinash Shekhar: the price will take care of itself over a longer
00:18:31
Avinash Shekhar: period of time. The concern is that if you don't understand,
00:18:34
Avinash Shekhar: if you don't study and if you invest too much
00:18:38
Avinash Shekhar: of your capital in a risk asset and you take leverage,
00:18:42
Avinash Shekhar: then it becomes a problem for
00:18:44
Saikat Pyne: somebody. Let's say who has no exposure to Crypto, who's
00:18:47
Saikat Pyne: listening to the podcast or maybe has just about heard
00:18:50
Saikat Pyne: about crypto from India's oldest and most widely used crypto
00:18:55
Saikat Pyne: asset exchange. The CEO of Z.
00:18:58
Saikat Pyne: How do you now evaluate crypto as an asset?
00:19:01
Avinash Shekhar: Generally, I have three steps actually OK for any new
00:19:05
Avinash Shekhar: person who is curious about crypto. OK, I think step
00:19:10
Avinash Shekhar: number one is that you invest a very small amount.
00:19:12
Avinash Shekhar: You can invest from ₹100 you invest ₹100 200 rupees,
00:19:15
Avinash Shekhar: ₹300 and that is step number one. And why this?
00:19:19
Avinash Shekhar: I'm saying that step number one is to
00:19:22
Avinash Shekhar: invest ₹100 is or any money which you can lose. Basically,
00:19:25
Avinash Shekhar: you can afford to lose. It can be ₹100. It
00:19:27
Avinash Shekhar: can be 500 then step number two is that you
00:19:30
Avinash Shekhar: have some skin in the game, whether it's ₹100 or
00:19:32
Avinash Shekhar: ₹500 and then you and invest only, let's say in,
00:19:35
Avinash Shekhar: like Bitcoin and ether, not like any other coin.
00:19:39
Avinash Shekhar: And then the step number two is that you start understanding.
00:19:43
Avinash Shekhar: You start reading about you start. Do you see YouTube videos?
00:19:46
Avinash Shekhar: There's like tonnes of education content available in online. You
00:19:49
Avinash Shekhar: start understanding about this technology. OK, once you start understanding
00:19:54
Avinash Shekhar: about this technology, when did you start building some conviction that, yes,
00:19:59
Avinash Shekhar: there is a chance for this technology to succeed and
00:20:02
Avinash Shekhar: it
00:20:03
Avinash Shekhar: at least it represents AAA or a fair future? It
00:20:08
Avinash Shekhar: has a fair future potential, so to say, then that's
00:20:10
Avinash Shekhar: the time when you start putting any serious money into
00:20:14
Avinash Shekhar: crypto basically
00:20:15
Avinash Shekhar: OK and
00:20:17
Avinash Shekhar: the third step will be, I said, that if you
00:20:19
Avinash Shekhar: want to invest in any other other, anything other than,
00:20:23
Avinash Shekhar: let's say Bitcoin and third, then that bar has to
00:20:25
Avinash Shekhar: then will be has to be significant, higher, significantly higher
00:20:29
Avinash Shekhar: because then you need to understand the particular project, which
00:20:33
Avinash Shekhar: is a particular problem the team is trying to solve. OK,
00:20:36
Avinash Shekhar: how is the team is like, How do you let's say,
00:20:39
Avinash Shekhar: evaluate a new startup company, so to say
00:20:41
Avinash Shekhar: so, it needs a significantly more amount of rigour, and
00:20:45
Avinash Shekhar: it also you have to also understand is that
00:20:48
Avinash Shekhar: if you put 2% of your let's say investable money
00:20:54
Avinash Shekhar: into Bitcoin and ether, then even within those 2% 70 80%
00:21:00
Avinash Shekhar: has to go to Bitcoin and ether, basically, And if
00:21:03
Avinash Shekhar: you really want to invest in all any other coin
00:21:06
Avinash Shekhar: It you It is like a riskier asset in a
00:21:09
Avinash Shekhar: risky asset class. Let's say
00:21:12
Avinash Shekhar: so. Here again, The thing is that education is very
00:21:15
Avinash Shekhar: important and it is not. It is important both from
00:21:18
Avinash Shekhar: upside and downside point, Right? OK, if you invest in,
00:21:22
Avinash Shekhar: let's say if you invest in Bitcoin as a like
00:21:24
Avinash Shekhar: a gamble, so to say OK, let me invest So
00:21:26
Avinash Shekhar: everyone is investing. Let me invest ₹5000 in and invested
00:21:30
Avinash Shekhar: ₹5000 in crypto in 2014, right? And 2000 bit of 2017.
00:21:37
Avinash Shekhar: And it became like $20 within a few months.
00:21:40
Avinash Shekhar: OK, the chances of you holding on to that or
00:21:44
Avinash Shekhar: is actually lower than
00:21:48
Avinash Shekhar: if the 5000 becomes ₹2000. OK, because in that case
00:21:52
Avinash Shekhar: you may think that OK, I'll wait. Maybe I'll cover
00:21:55
Avinash Shekhar: the loss and all that. In the other case, if
00:21:57
Avinash Shekhar: you 5000 becomes 20, you will say that. OK, let
00:22:00
Avinash Shekhar: me say book the problem, OK, and both side it
00:22:04
Avinash Shekhar: is a It is basically whether you have the conviction
00:22:07
Avinash Shekhar: or not and whether the money which you invested is
00:22:10
Avinash Shekhar: truly an allocation of risky class of asset. Not like
00:22:14
Avinash Shekhar: you're not like selling the jewellery and investing there.
00:22:17
Saikat Pyne: Got it. And the last thing I wanted to touch
00:22:20
Saikat Pyne: upon Avinash is if I am an investor in crypto
00:22:24
Saikat Pyne: in India, what are some of the more tax friendly
00:22:27
Saikat Pyne: ways I can do it? Are there any if at all,
00:22:30
Saikat Pyne: relatively tax friendly ways of investing in crypto as an
00:22:33
Saikat Pyne: Indian citizen?
00:22:36
Avinash Shekhar: Yeah, I think I think people should not try to
00:22:38
Avinash Shekhar: save tax here. Frankly, the thing is that the intent
00:22:42
Avinash Shekhar: of the government is very clear that they want to
00:22:44
Avinash Shekhar: tax it in a certain way. OK? And frankly speaking,
00:22:48
Avinash Shekhar: even if you are able to find some loopholes, that
00:22:52
Avinash Shekhar: loophole is not going to be there for a longer
00:22:54
Avinash Shekhar: period of time. So my suggestion is that obviously you
00:22:57
Avinash Shekhar: buy and hold, so to say, Don't try to, because again,
00:23:00
Avinash Shekhar: if you try to trade from a point of view,
00:23:02
Avinash Shekhar: obviously it's not
00:23:04
Avinash Shekhar: point of view. But again, if you trade too much
00:23:06
Avinash Shekhar: tax is one part. But most of the retail investors,
00:23:09
Avinash Shekhar: if they trade too much, they lose money. So to say, OK,
00:23:12
Avinash Shekhar: so best strategy is to buy and hold, so to say,
00:23:15
Avinash Shekhar: And if you buy and hold, uh, I don't think
00:23:18
Avinash Shekhar: the tax impact is so much. If you are not
00:23:21
Avinash Shekhar: like trading too much, so to say it's higher, then
00:23:23
Avinash Shekhar: Obviously it should not be like
00:23:25
Avinash Shekhar: if it is 30% and there's no set of availabilities.
00:23:28
Avinash Shekhar: Not a good use, but not recommended to try to
00:23:31
Avinash Shekhar: save tax here.
00:23:32
Saikat Pyne: Basically, the best thing to do for an Indian retail
00:23:37
Saikat Pyne: crypto investor is buy and hold. Just buy and hold. Yeah,
00:23:42
Saikat Pyne: and with that, it's a wrap. Thank you for being
00:23:45
Saikat Pyne: on the podcast, Savina. Really appreciate your inputs.
00:23:49
Saikat Pyne: Guys, please tune in next week for the next episode
00:23:52
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