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[00:00:04] Welcome to the Recruitment Flex with Serge and Shelley. I'm Serge. And I'm Shelley. And

[00:00:11] we talk all things recruitment starting right now. Bonjour and welcome to the Recruitment

[00:00:19] Flex. We're here recording in Toronto, Canada. Do you like Toronto, Shelley? Well, it's

[00:00:26] certainly better than Calgary today. Yes. Oh my gosh. The trees here are starting

[00:00:30] to bloom. They don't have any snow here. And Calgary's hit with a snow storm as

[00:00:36] we record today. Yes, we do get snow storms every once in a while, but it's not normal.

[00:00:40] We'll be back to normal next week in Calgary. But Toronto is looking great. The Toronto Maple

[00:00:46] Leafs are playing game six tomorrow in the playoffs. So we're going to see what happens

[00:00:50] there. But Shelley, this is part of a very busy May and June for us. This is the start

[00:00:58] of our travel. We're very excited to host a dinner tomorrow with some of Canada's

[00:01:03] biggest banks in coordination with our friends at Plum, with humanly.io and AMS. Are you

[00:01:12] excited for that, Shelley? I am so excited. We are going to be talking to some of the

[00:01:19] senior most leaders in talent acquisition in Canada and just having an opportunity

[00:01:24] to keep our finger on the pulse of TA leaders challenges they're facing. What is

[00:01:31] the reality of the Canadian market? What are they doing and coming together with such

[00:01:38] amazing brain power and a few drinks? Yes, I think it's going to be a really robust

[00:01:45] discussion for sure. Yeah, it's interesting because these are all senior leaders, big

[00:01:50] organizations that have seen all of it. So I think we're going to learn a lot, which

[00:01:55] is what I'm excited. It's really good to hear exactly what's happening out there in the

[00:01:59] field when it comes to recruiting, especially at big banks that have massive

[00:02:03] brands. So we will let you know next week how that goes. But we have more events.

[00:02:08] And next week we're going to be at Unleash in Las Vegas. And Shelley, I've got

[00:02:14] bad news. So I was nominated to go jump off the Vegas tower, but it starts at

[00:02:21] one o'clock and we land at one o'clock. So I don't think I'll be able to make

[00:02:25] it. Oh, darn. Oh, darn. I have no idea why anyone would want to do that. But I'm

[00:02:34] actually happy that our flights just didn't line up with the time because they

[00:02:37] changed the time. Unleash, though, I think is going to be really good in that we

[00:02:43] now have connections with some of the top technologies that are going to be

[00:02:47] there as well as being hosted by a number of very interesting TA tech

[00:02:53] firms. So that's going to be awesome. I think the more time we can get talking

[00:02:59] to TA tech leaders, TA tech creators, understand what's happening in the US

[00:03:05] market because anything that happens in the US a couple years later, we're

[00:03:08] going to see it coming into Canada.

[00:03:10] Something sooner.

[00:03:12] Like we've seen sometimes that it's sooner, but I agree. I'm looking

[00:03:15] forward to it and I'm looking forward to these events. So we're going to

[00:03:18] go to Jovio, which we had their CEO, KJ on the podcast this week, which if you

[00:03:26] haven't listened to that one, go listen to it. It's one of my favorite

[00:03:29] episodes. And then we've got TA tech coming. What are the dates, Shelley?

[00:03:33] That is June 4th to 6th. Again, that is at the International Spy Museum.

[00:03:39] And we went through like an overview with the organizers. That is

[00:03:43] the TA tech executive team. And walking through the speakers, the topics, it

[00:03:50] is mind blowing. I was so excited to see and know who's going to be

[00:03:56] speaking on what topics. And for you and I to be the emcees of the event,

[00:04:01] what an opportunity, small audience as well, because it is limited to,

[00:04:06] I think 330 or 350?

[00:04:08] 350. 350. So what an opportunity to have some really meaningful conversations.

[00:04:15] And if you'd like to go, you can get $400 off your registration by using

[00:04:23] the Friends 25 discount code when you go to register at the TA tech

[00:04:27] website.

[00:04:29] There's only a few tickets left. So I definitely recommend you move really

[00:04:33] quickly because to your point, the folks that are going to be there are

[00:04:37] the industry heavy hitters. And there's a lot of knowledge that we can gain.

[00:04:42] So looking forward to it, Shelley, you were telling me a story on the

[00:04:46] flight here about your daughter Brooklyn and her challenges that she's

[00:04:51] had recently with job scammers.

[00:04:54] It was no coincidence. She was applying to jobs and this was on Friday.

[00:05:00] She had a list and being related to me or my daughter. Yeah, very organized.

[00:05:06] So she had a list and she applied directly on company sites.

[00:05:10] And then she went to indeed registered, put in her information and

[00:05:16] uploaded a PDF within hours.

[00:05:19] She had a text message from a recruiter who said they were with Robert

[00:05:23] Half and like basically we have a job for you.

[00:05:27] So she comes to me and said, is this legit?

[00:05:29] So I look up the Robert Half website and then I look up on LinkedIn.

[00:05:35] There is somebody by that name at Robert Half.

[00:05:38] So I reached out to him and said, Hey, I'm not sure if this is you.

[00:05:42] We got a text message from you and it seems a little fishy.

[00:05:47] He got back to me and he said, it's not me.

[00:05:51] I'm sorry.

[00:05:52] It appears that the scammers are now crawling websites.

[00:05:58] Like how they got her phone number like her cell number is an absolute

[00:06:02] mystery, but it was within hours of her and she only applied directly on

[00:06:07] three companies as I say and on indeed.

[00:06:10] So it was really creepy.

[00:06:12] Now since then she's had two more fake job offers, but what's different

[00:06:18] this time is they're actually using a company name and using the

[00:06:24] recruiters first name.

[00:06:26] And the last one came from somebody who said, Hi, it's Lisa from Indeed.

[00:06:31] Interesting.

[00:06:31] Yes.

[00:06:32] Because there is a Lisa at Indeed.

[00:06:34] Well, of course, there's probably many leases at Indeed.

[00:06:37] But if you got a text, so she's 20 that said, Hi, it's Lisa from Indeed.

[00:06:42] Are you still interested in getting a job?

[00:06:45] I mean, if you didn't know any better, you'd probably respond.

[00:06:50] So it was freaky.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] Like the only thing that I can see is how did they access her cell

[00:06:56] phone number?

[00:06:57] And it's got to be when she inputted her resume on Indeed to be able to do

[00:07:02] the quick apply, which goes in their resume database.

[00:07:05] Is that not frightening?

[00:07:07] It is.

[00:07:08] This is something that definitely I'm glad we're calling this out.

[00:07:11] And to your point, she is very fortunate that she has someone

[00:07:15] that is very savvy in the industry to know that, okay, there's

[00:07:18] something fishy out there.

[00:07:19] But when most people know like just a 20 year old that this is maybe

[00:07:25] looking for summer work.

[00:07:26] Exactly.

[00:07:27] It's the second time they apply for a job and they get this, they're

[00:07:30] going to take it's real.

[00:07:31] But it's not uncommon to your point that people are using real names.

[00:07:35] I've seen this before.

[00:07:36] I've seen offer letters with the CFO name like a real CFO at the company.

[00:07:42] It's not uncommon.

[00:07:43] They're getting smarter and smarter.

[00:07:46] But it's something that we have to be very wary of because if they're

[00:07:50] using Robert Half, other brands, they could be using your brand as well,

[00:07:54] which you don't want to be associated with any type of scamming.

[00:07:58] Yeah, it is.

[00:08:00] And so I don't know how companies would find out unless it's like a friend or

[00:08:06] relative or exactly.

[00:08:08] So I reached out to those recruiters and let them know that

[00:08:12] somebody is masquerading as them and reaching out to candidates.

[00:08:16] And they were like, there's nothing we can do about it was the response.

[00:08:20] This is the perfect segue into in the new segment.

[00:08:25] Shelly, do you want to take the first one because it ties in really well?

[00:08:27] Yes.

[00:08:28] LinkedIn starts verifying recruiter profiles.

[00:08:32] So it was reported this week that LinkedIn has a verification currently

[00:08:37] required for recruiters in Canada and the US and Mexico.

[00:08:41] So recruiters must provide valid government issued ID and a phone

[00:08:45] number from one of these countries.

[00:08:47] And verification includes using Microsoft and Tra verified ID,

[00:08:52] LinkedIn learning license, work email or a LinkedIn recruiter license.

[00:08:57] And the whole aim here is to increase and ensure trust and security on the

[00:09:01] platform, which is absolutely crucial.

[00:09:05] I know a lot of recruiters would be very upset if they could not have

[00:09:10] access to all the data on LinkedIn.

[00:09:12] So I'm certainly glad they're making this move.

[00:09:15] Is this why you're locked out of LinkedIn right now?

[00:09:18] I don't know.

[00:09:19] I'm honestly asking just recently, just like today or an hour ago.

[00:09:23] Just an hour ago, I was asked to log back in and verify, but I'm not

[00:09:28] registered as a recruiter.

[00:09:30] So I'm not a recruiter on LinkedIn.

[00:09:32] Well, you'd have some recruiting elements.

[00:09:34] You've been a recruiter in the past, right?

[00:09:36] How do they know if someone's a recruiter outside of their job title?

[00:09:40] Obviously I have recruitment all over my LinkedIn page.

[00:09:45] It is a verification that is now going to be required for recruiters.

[00:09:49] Yes, which I think is great.

[00:09:50] There is so many scams and unfortunately this industry is challenged by this.

[00:09:56] No, not just our industry.

[00:09:57] I think it's every industry.

[00:09:59] We are plagued, whether it's bots or any sort of automation programs

[00:10:05] that are reaching out to candidates trying to scam people for jobs.

[00:10:10] True, but you're hitting people that are vulnerable.

[00:10:14] They're looking for a job.

[00:10:15] They get that email and we've heard the stories of people applying for

[00:10:19] thousands of jobs and then getting no callbacks.

[00:10:21] And suddenly you're applying for jobs, you start getting callbacks.

[00:10:24] You get excited, you get a little bit blurry as far as, oh, wow, I might have

[00:10:28] a job type of thing and I think it makes you maybe less suspicious.

[00:10:34] Is my thoughts?

[00:10:35] And if you're getting an in-mail and you can see that they're a verified

[00:10:39] recruiter, then yes, trust goes up.

[00:10:42] Yes.

[00:10:43] So smart move, LinkedIn, way to go.

[00:10:46] Smart move talking about not so smart move in my opinion.

[00:10:50] The US moves to ban TikTok.

[00:10:53] I don't know what I'm going to do because I think I spend every night

[00:10:56] from nine to 10 before going to bed watching TikToks.

[00:10:59] No, do you really?

[00:11:01] Yeah, I don't watch TV or anything like now we're in TikTok.

[00:11:04] Yeah, I am addicted.

[00:11:05] I do need to completely shut it off.

[00:11:07] But here's the details.

[00:11:08] The US law gives the TikTok parent company bite dance 270 days to

[00:11:13] sell TikTok to another non-Chinese company.

[00:11:18] This would mean that TikTok remains usable and unaffected until

[00:11:22] January 2025.

[00:11:26] Really, what they're saying is national security concern related

[00:11:29] to its Chinese ownership, which could potentially allow data access

[00:11:34] by the Chinese government.

[00:11:36] If the sale does not occur, TikTok will be removed from US

[00:11:41] app stores and web access.

[00:11:43] TikTok definitely plans to pursue legal actions against the US

[00:11:47] government to challenge the ban.

[00:11:49] Before I give my opinion, what is your opinion, Shelley?

[00:11:54] I honestly don't understand why they would even try and take

[00:11:58] legal action against the US government.

[00:12:01] To what end?

[00:12:02] Do they think they're going to win?

[00:12:04] Really?

[00:12:04] They're a corporation.

[00:12:06] They're for profit.

[00:12:07] Yes, it's very popular platform in the US.

[00:12:10] But do you really think you're going to win against the US

[00:12:13] government?

[00:12:15] No, I don't think so.

[00:12:17] No, I have a lot of thoughts here, Shelley.

[00:12:19] What are your thoughts, Serge?

[00:12:21] If you think about it, all American apps are banned in China.

[00:12:25] I think free speech is critical and not doing what China does

[00:12:29] is what makes the US quite unique.

[00:12:31] But this is definitely challenging to status quo.

[00:12:34] I think that's one that a lot of people are saying.

[00:12:36] Obviously, and there's different reports that have come out

[00:12:39] from employees that work for TikTok and they're like, the

[00:12:42] Chinese government is definitely involved and is definitely in the data.

[00:12:47] I don't know if that's hearsay or not, but that would be

[00:12:50] very concerning.

[00:12:51] And we've talked about this before.

[00:12:53] The TikTok in China is completely different than TikTok in US

[00:12:59] Canada or anywhere else, where is very focused on entertainment

[00:13:04] here as in China is very focused on education.

[00:13:08] So in one way, are they just trying to corrupt the minds of our young folks?

[00:13:13] And that could be argued that their algorithm is amazing and how it works

[00:13:17] is very addictive, is very catchy.

[00:13:21] But is that a good thing?

[00:13:22] Are they sharing propaganda that we don't know about?

[00:13:26] Are we seeing things that are causing challenges for the US that,

[00:13:31] hey, if it wasn't owned by China or Chinese company, it wouldn't be an issue.

[00:13:36] So I do see where that's coming from, but this law passing was not only

[00:13:42] banning TikTok.

[00:13:43] There's a lot more to it.

[00:13:44] It opens it up for any known US based company, social media company

[00:13:49] to be banned in the US, which is very scary.

[00:13:53] There is other social networks.

[00:13:54] Telegram is the most popular one that's Russian based.

[00:13:58] And is that the next step?

[00:14:00] And then is China actually going to allow this to sell to divest it?

[00:14:07] They might not.

[00:14:08] Obviously, the owner of Bite Dance wants to divest it in.

[00:14:11] It's probably worth a hundred billion dollars.

[00:14:14] It's worth a lot.

[00:14:15] I don't know if it's a hundred billion, but I could see TikTok

[00:14:18] completely disappearing.

[00:14:19] And the challenge with that is the competitors are just really bad.

[00:14:24] TikTok Reels is a joke.

[00:14:26] Oh, you mean Instagram Reels?

[00:14:28] Oh, sorry.

[00:14:28] Instagram Reels are a joke and YouTube shorts are not watchable.

[00:14:34] I don't know if you've tried.

[00:14:35] So I guess in one way, I hope it gets banned because I don't have to watch

[00:14:41] it and I'll get an hour pretty much every night free again.

[00:14:45] Seven hours a week back in your life.

[00:14:47] Do we want to jump into the tip of the week?

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[00:15:19] So here's my tip of the week.

[00:15:21] I've been thinking a lot about in-house referral programs.

[00:15:24] This is when you want to engage your employees in a positive way

[00:15:29] to refer people they know to open positions.

[00:15:32] Now, I'm going to be a little controversial.

[00:15:35] I don't believe money should be in the equation.

[00:15:38] I believe that when HR gets their hands on the money,

[00:15:42] what ends up happening is they want to drip it out to the person

[00:15:46] who made the successful referral, which is demotivating.

[00:15:50] And the other thing is it's usually whatever the referral

[00:15:54] reward was less tax.

[00:15:57] So when the employee who enthusiastically referred someone

[00:16:01] gets their payout, it's not the $2,000 that you said it was.

[00:16:05] But at any rate, this is where I think things go wrong.

[00:16:09] So I wanted to offer some best practices

[00:16:12] for internal employee referral programs.

[00:16:15] First, job one is to communicate with the person who made

[00:16:19] the referral at every stage of the process.

[00:16:22] And if you know that person's not moving forward,

[00:16:25] as the hiring manager, you are personally communicating

[00:16:29] with that employee saying, thank you for the referral.

[00:16:32] But what does that cost us?

[00:16:34] Four minutes of your time?

[00:16:36] Yeah.

[00:16:37] I dare say it has a huge impact on people referring somebody they know.

[00:16:42] The other thing is just a simple written message,

[00:16:46] thanking that person for making referral.

[00:16:48] The next great thing to do for employee referrals

[00:16:52] is just to recognize whether it be in a newsletter

[00:16:56] or up on the screens that just acknowledges that, hey,

[00:17:00] we've had 30 people referred to the organization this month

[00:17:04] and sending out a big thank you.

[00:17:06] The last thing, and I think this is the most important part,

[00:17:09] this is where employee referral programs can really hit their stride.

[00:17:14] And that is to hold a day in the life programs.

[00:17:18] Because if you are working in, say, the call center,

[00:17:23] how on earth would you be expected to know what somebody

[00:17:26] would do if they worked in supply chain?

[00:17:29] So a day in the life gives employees the opportunity

[00:17:32] to speak with other employees to talk about

[00:17:35] what does a day in my life look like?

[00:17:37] It's a great way to inform so that you're not getting people

[00:17:41] referring candidates who work in finance to a supply chain job.

[00:17:45] There's my tip of the week.

[00:17:47] Well, I'm not going to disagree with your tip of the week this week.

[00:17:51] Really good one.

[00:17:52] I think we've all implemented referral programs and you're right.

[00:17:56] And most of the time it's a drip.

[00:17:58] If the person's there for 90 days, you get 30% or 50%.

[00:18:02] And after a year you get the other one.

[00:18:04] What a demotivator.

[00:18:06] Just taking the wind out of their sails.

[00:18:08] No, exactly.

[00:18:09] And in my opinion, if they hired him or her,

[00:18:14] the referer did their job.

[00:18:16] Like their job is to refer someone that potentially could hire

[00:18:19] the job to assess if this is a good hire.

[00:18:22] It's a hiring manager, but going a little bit further than that.

[00:18:26] Anytime you give money, it means your culture sucks.

[00:18:31] Like it does.

[00:18:32] People that really enjoy working somewhere will happily refer

[00:18:38] people to come within the organization.

[00:18:41] Giving referral bonuses is a very tricky slope.

[00:18:45] I do not recommend it.

[00:18:47] The real problem doesn't go away.

[00:18:49] Still a shitty place to work, right?

[00:18:51] It doesn't change anything.

[00:18:53] So, Shelley, how about we jump into the recruiting insights?

[00:18:57] Recruiting insights brought to you by our friends at Mitova.

[00:19:01] Shelley, are you tired of the same old outsourcing woes?

[00:19:05] Well, say hello to nearshoring.

[00:19:08] It's like outsourcing, but closer and it won't make you pull your hair out.

[00:19:12] Picture this top notch IT talent from Latin America.

[00:19:16] Many Latin American IT professionals have strong English language skills

[00:19:21] and even live in the same time zone.

[00:19:22] So no more midnight conference calls.

[00:19:25] Hallelujah.

[00:19:27] Plus, Latin America's growing tech ecosystem, strong educational institutions

[00:19:32] and a pool of skilled IT professionals make it the perfect region for recruiting talent.

[00:19:38] I have the perfect company that does this.

[00:19:40] The company's name is Mitova.

[00:19:43] They have local experts who handle everything from recruiting to HR support.

[00:19:48] So why settle for the same old outsourcing blues

[00:19:51] when you can have the nearshoring party with Mitova?

[00:19:56] Look them up at Mitova.com and let's get the fiesta started.

[00:20:01] There's an article in the BBC News.

[00:20:04] And so these are UK based companies called John Lewis and Waitrose.

[00:20:09] This is a department within an organization and a supermarket chain

[00:20:13] that has published questions for all job levels

[00:20:16] from customer assistance to directors on its website.

[00:20:20] And so the firm's head of talent said interviews would be no less rigorous.

[00:20:26] But some recruiters argue it could remove authenticity from answers.

[00:20:31] You know, in a pre chat GPT world, there was this thing called Google.

[00:20:35] And when you knew you were going for an interview,

[00:20:37] you would type into Google, what are the most common interview questions?

[00:20:42] And it would spit out answers for you and typically behavioral descriptive answers.

[00:20:46] Here's how to answer this question.

[00:20:49] That's nothing new at all.

[00:20:51] Chat GPT on the other hand, where you can take the job description

[00:20:55] and say, what are the interview questions for this job?

[00:20:58] Most likely going to be.

[00:20:59] And what are some good answers?

[00:21:01] So the whole concept of providing interview questions in advance.

[00:21:06] My first reaction was that's probably a really good idea

[00:21:09] because if people are going to take the initiative to prepare for an interview,

[00:21:14] doesn't mean those are the exact questions, but you could give them

[00:21:17] a sense that, listen, here's the five pillars of how we make a hiring decision.

[00:21:22] What's wrong with that?

[00:21:23] The questions will be around leadership.

[00:21:26] The questions will be around dealing with difficult customers

[00:21:29] or the questions will be around how to exceed a customer's expectations.

[00:21:34] Right. So this is word for word.

[00:21:37] The question we're going to ask you.

[00:21:39] But if you want to be prepared and put some thought beforehand

[00:21:43] because there's nothing natural about an interview.

[00:21:48] No, it is the most unnatural situation between two human beings,

[00:21:53] one of which holds all the power and ability to decide whether or not

[00:21:58] you can pay rent next month.

[00:22:00] It is the most stressful event in most people's lives.

[00:22:04] And most people never forget their interviews.

[00:22:07] If somebody is willing to prepare, they truly want the job.

[00:22:11] Would this not be a really great way of seeing who took that initiative?

[00:22:17] Who took the time to put some thought knowing they'd be asked questions

[00:22:21] in these particular categories that are directly relevant to the job too?

[00:22:27] Oh, Shelley.

[00:22:29] I had a different viewpoint before you went on that rant because I...

[00:22:32] My little monologue.

[00:22:34] Yeah, I actually think you've changed my mind on a couple of things

[00:22:37] because I was coming in and like, oh, is this another like handing out

[00:22:41] a trophy to everyone type of thing?

[00:22:43] But you mentioned something.

[00:22:45] Interviewing is very unnatural.

[00:22:47] And I've said this and you disagreed, but I still think it's true.

[00:22:51] It's basically one person lying to the other.

[00:22:53] Like we're lying to each other in an interview.

[00:22:55] And when they say lying, maybe that's an exaggeration.

[00:22:58] But we're definitely setting ourselves up to look the best possible

[00:23:03] and the employers doing the same thing.

[00:23:06] But there's a couple of things in this story that could make sense,

[00:23:09] right? Because they're not sending the interview questions to them.

[00:23:13] You have to go find them, right?

[00:23:16] Did I understand correctly?

[00:23:17] OK, so that's great because like you said,

[00:23:21] you can automatically know who did their research, which is important.

[00:23:26] So I think actually for a lot of their roles in this mixture,

[00:23:30] obviously grocery stores, then they have people working in the head offices.

[00:23:34] They're doing this for all the roles is what I understand.

[00:23:37] I don't think they should do it for their corporate office or director roles.

[00:23:41] I think for all the roles that are frontline staffing, absolutely.

[00:23:46] Get them set up and prepared as much as possible to be successful in that interview.

[00:23:52] For a director, I still think you better have your poop in a group,

[00:23:56] as they would say, you better know what you're going to be talking about.

[00:23:58] And you should be ready to be surprised and be able to adapt to whatever questions come.

[00:24:05] I still feel that way with the more senior roles,

[00:24:08] but you have changed my mind with all the field type roles.

[00:24:13] I think it makes a lot of sense.

[00:24:16] I believe the underlying motivation from these two organizations,

[00:24:21] the idea was to help those candidates and job competitions

[00:24:26] where the applicant may be neurodivergent

[00:24:31] and helping them prepare where interview anxiety is the reason they're not working.

[00:24:39] They just suffer from debilitating anxiety.

[00:24:42] And if this is one small thing they could do to help alleviate that level of stress,

[00:24:48] it will open up candidates because doesn't mean you can't do the work.

[00:24:53] It just means you are so stressed out from the thought of an interview.

[00:24:58] Yeah. So that was their underlying motivation.

[00:25:01] That makes sense too. That makes a lot of sense.

[00:25:03] How many times have you interviewed someone you feel they could be a good employee?

[00:25:08] They're just really bad at interviewing exactly to how you described it.

[00:25:14] Do they still deserve to be able to work?

[00:25:17] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:25:18] They're just for whatever they're neurodivergent or they have a challenge

[00:25:23] to have interview anxiety because interviewing is very unnatural.

[00:25:27] And even the most seasoned interviewer or interviewee, it's a little bit nerve-wracking.

[00:25:33] So I get that.

[00:25:34] It is.

[00:25:35] And I think good hiring decisions are based on multiple data points.

[00:25:40] If you're making your entire decision on somebody's ability to perform under pressure,

[00:25:45] great if that's directly relevant to the role.

[00:25:47] But for the vast majority, that shouldn't be the only way you make a decision.

[00:25:54] You need to look at their work history.

[00:25:55] You need to check their references.

[00:25:57] You need to have other conversations with them that are not under this spotlight

[00:26:02] of being interviewed and how quickly you can come up with a good answer.

[00:26:06] And I think assessments, that will give you the full picture of an individual

[00:26:11] and not just hanging everything on your ability to interview.

[00:26:15] I'll leave it on this.

[00:26:16] What I really like is they're trying something different, something new.

[00:26:21] And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[00:26:23] But I don't see any risk in doing this.

[00:26:26] They can obviously look at the data after if this is making an impact.

[00:26:31] I love that they're trying.

[00:26:32] So I'm going to give them full kudos.

[00:26:35] So I want to move on to the next recruiting insight.

[00:26:38] And Shelly, you've hired people in your lifetime.

[00:26:41] You hired me.

[00:26:42] I'm not Gen Z, but there is some growing concerns.

[00:26:45] US employers are not ready for Gen Z.

[00:26:50] Here's a couple of quotes that I see.

[00:26:52] I simply don't hire them according to research.

[00:26:55] That's the attitude of 94 percent of business leaders

[00:27:01] towards Gen Z employees born between 1997 and 2012.

[00:27:06] There was 1243 people recently surveyed.

[00:27:10] And they feel that Gen Z brings a sense of entitlement,

[00:27:14] a deficient work ethic and subpar communication skills.

[00:27:19] Hmm, that's a little scary, right?

[00:27:22] So Shelly, is this just a situation of no one wants to work anymore?

[00:27:28] Or is there some validity to these concerns from business leaders?

[00:27:33] What's your thoughts here?

[00:27:34] I think what spoke most loudly to me was first of all, decent sample size.

[00:27:38] Yeah, 1243 businesses and speaking to business leaders.

[00:27:44] OK, and the evidence that they cited was half of those business leaders

[00:27:49] reported that Gen Z job applicants requested salaries topping 100,000

[00:27:56] when the position paid 70 or less.

[00:27:59] So listen, we're talking about like my kids age 97 to 2012.

[00:28:05] That's my kids age there in their early 20s.

[00:28:08] Yep. To their mid 20s.

[00:28:10] And if you're in your 20s asking for $100,000 when the posted

[00:28:16] position pays 70, that's a little out of touch.

[00:28:20] Yes. I think is that anything new?

[00:28:22] No. Listen, you know what?

[00:28:24] Kids coming out of, I say kids.

[00:28:27] So young people coming out of university.

[00:28:29] Everybody hears the urban legend.

[00:28:31] I know a guy over in the engineering department who just landed a job

[00:28:36] when it's his first job at a university and he's getting paid $150,000

[00:28:41] urban legend. Yeah.

[00:28:43] So they begin to believe it.

[00:28:44] They don't even know what they don't know about what a job pays.

[00:28:48] And so to be offended that somebody is uninformed or you make them an offer

[00:28:55] and they're negotiating 30,000 over the pay grade.

[00:28:58] Is that entitlement?

[00:29:00] I don't know.

[00:29:02] But these sorts of numbers send a very clear message

[00:29:06] that this particular group is feeling entitled.

[00:29:11] Yes. And they are going to be 30% of our workforce in the coming years.

[00:29:18] It's a big portion of our workforce.

[00:29:20] So we got to figure out what's going on here.

[00:29:22] I think I've told you this before, Shelley.

[00:29:24] That generation has grown up in prosperity in most ways.

[00:29:28] Not really any recessions they would remember.

[00:29:32] Everything has been rosy.

[00:29:33] It's been a talent scarcity market.

[00:29:36] So there's been plenty of jobs.

[00:29:39] That's changed.

[00:29:40] That's changed in the last year and they're finding it very difficult

[00:29:44] because we're hearing all the stories of anyone to grudge from university.

[00:29:48] They're applying for hundreds and thousands of jobs

[00:29:52] and they're just not getting an opportunity like software development

[00:29:56] is one that I know is a massive challenge.

[00:29:58] No one is hiring juniors

[00:30:01] because they feel with one senior, they can do the job of like 10 juniors, 20 juniors.

[00:30:07] They are coming into a little bit of a harder time to get a job, to keep a job.

[00:30:12] But there's definitely a longer interview process.

[00:30:14] There's a lot more going on.

[00:30:16] And what I think is going to happen is they're going to come down

[00:30:20] to reality of what the market is.

[00:30:23] I am not blaming them, but.

[00:30:27] They've been lucky.

[00:30:28] They've been very fortunate to come out of school in a very prosperous time.

[00:30:33] And that is changing.

[00:30:34] And one way, Shelley, I'm like,

[00:30:38] every generation has said something very similar about the generation before them.

[00:30:43] Are we just a little bit jealous?

[00:30:45] It could be the case.

[00:30:46] Like I'm in my mid 40s now and I look at those kids and like,

[00:30:49] you got to put into work before you ask for a raise or you got to show up

[00:30:54] and work 60 hours and their priorities are different than ours.

[00:30:59] Shelley, did you have anything else to add there?

[00:31:01] Are you good there?

[00:31:02] The only thing I would add is they did as a generation go through

[00:31:06] something as young adults and that is everyone came home.

[00:31:10] We hunkered down with our families and that has left a permanent mark

[00:31:16] on that generation that we're just entering the workforce or just

[00:31:20] graduating high school.

[00:31:22] It is going to have a long term effect.

[00:31:24] And I don't think we yet know what that is going to mean.

[00:31:29] We're starting to see it as they enter the workforce.

[00:31:31] We're seeing just what sort of impact that had on them that as young

[00:31:36] adults live through it.

[00:31:38] I think the market will correct itself because like 30% of the workforce

[00:31:44] is not going to influence 70%.

[00:31:46] They will come around.

[00:31:48] They will.

[00:31:49] Okay, I just don't want to be the get off my lawn guy.

[00:31:53] So let's see.

[00:31:56] The next 10 years will tell us a very interesting story.

[00:32:01] All right, I want to jump into the last recruiting insight.

[00:32:03] And this is for our friends that are actually sourcing and reaching out

[00:32:07] to candidates.

[00:32:09] Our friend Hung Lee had a really interesting list that he put together

[00:32:14] of what makes a candidate respond to a recruitment message.

[00:32:18] So Shelley, I'm going to give a couple of the key points

[00:32:22] and I want to get your thoughts on it.

[00:32:24] So employer brand of sender.

[00:32:27] Obviously, if you are a recruiter at Amazon, Google or any of the big

[00:32:32] brands, there's a way higher chance that you are going to get a response.

[00:32:38] Would you agree?

[00:32:39] Disagree.

[00:32:39] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:32:41] I think that's a no brainer.

[00:32:42] That's why I think recruiters that work at really famous brands.

[00:32:46] I'm sure there is some great recruiters, but you can get away

[00:32:49] from it being a mediocre recruiter in those bands.

[00:32:52] So the identity of the sender, so the CEO is going to get more responses

[00:32:58] than a recruiter.

[00:33:00] Absolutely.

[00:33:01] A hundred percent.

[00:33:03] Then I want to go into a couple of ones.

[00:33:05] Actually, I want to talk one that's not even really here.

[00:33:10] There was a couple of research that I found that talked about

[00:33:13] personalization versus non-personalization.

[00:33:16] So sending out a message that is very personalized compared to sending

[00:33:20] just a standard message that you're sending to say 500,000 candidates.

[00:33:25] And what the research shows is really no difference.

[00:33:29] Again, this is in high volume hiring roles.

[00:33:34] So if you are taking a lot of time to individually personalize these

[00:33:37] messages, the data is showing that it doesn't make much a difference.

[00:33:43] Where it does make a difference is when we're looking at executive roles,

[00:33:47] more challenging roles are definitely an impact of personalization.

[00:33:51] But if you're hiring for high volume roles, don't waste your time.

[00:33:55] It's basically a message here.

[00:33:58] Then there's a couple of things that we always talk about like message lent.

[00:34:01] What's the optimal number of characters for a message?

[00:34:04] Usually I always think shorter is better than longer.

[00:34:07] And according to LinkedIn, less than 400 characters gets the best response rate.

[00:34:14] Do you want to hit a couple?

[00:34:16] Yeah. So the one here that is the channel that you use.

[00:34:20] I know we talk a lot about if you want to response text somebody.

[00:34:24] Yeah. Now, how do you get their cell phone number?

[00:34:27] Well, you log into the indeed database and get all the emails and the text.

[00:34:32] Interesting. Is it email or is it an in-mail message?

[00:34:36] What if somebody were to message you on Facebook?

[00:34:40] Now, I would say that's probably the least effective

[00:34:44] because I believe that if you're being messaged on, say, WhatsApp

[00:34:48] or Instagram Messenger or on Facebook, it's almost a violation of privacy.

[00:34:55] Hey, this is my off duty persona.

[00:34:59] So I think the channel that you use does matter.

[00:35:03] Email, though, we know rarely gets opened in in-mail.

[00:35:07] I think for most people, if you send out 100 in-mail messages

[00:35:11] and you get 10 back, 10 responses, that's considered OK.

[00:35:16] If you get 30 percent, you're rocking.

[00:35:19] So the channel does matter where you send the message.

[00:35:24] Really good point, because if you sent me an email, there's a good chance

[00:35:27] I'm going to miss it. I don't look at them as much.

[00:35:31] You're right, though.

[00:35:32] I've had this happen on Amazon Facebook Messenger

[00:35:38] and I felt a little bit violated.

[00:35:40] I felt like, what are you doing?

[00:35:43] You need therapy?

[00:35:44] I'm going to use the kid's terms.

[00:35:45] I felt trauma.

[00:35:46] Were you traumatized?

[00:35:49] Just that workplace trauma. No.

[00:35:52] I did not feel right about it and I never responded

[00:35:54] and I didn't feel like I needed to respond.

[00:35:58] But yeah, the channel makes a huge difference here.

[00:36:00] I think it's the biggest one.

[00:36:02] So which channel would you use, Shelley?

[00:36:04] I think you need to understand your audience.

[00:36:06] Yeah.

[00:36:07] You know, I think of one of our clients

[00:36:09] that has this large database because they do high paying

[00:36:12] but short term work and they've got a database of people.

[00:36:16] And so they text them to say, hey, we've got this work coming up.

[00:36:20] Are you available?

[00:36:21] Now that's an opted in system.

[00:36:23] Right. They know you.

[00:36:25] You've applied to them before.

[00:36:26] You've got permission to reach out to them.

[00:36:29] So I think channel matters, but it's got to be the right audience.

[00:36:32] LinkedIn is completely appropriate for people in professional roles.

[00:36:38] Will they respond?

[00:36:40] Not likely because like recruiters, we live on LinkedIn.

[00:36:44] So we think everybody must check it every day.

[00:36:47] Honestly, like I can't get into LinkedIn right now as you.

[00:36:49] You're panicking.

[00:36:50] I'm like, oh my God.

[00:36:52] Here's the other thing.

[00:36:53] I love a succinct message itself.

[00:36:57] So the content of the message, if you can be concise and to the point

[00:37:03] that is far more effective than just spewing the job description

[00:37:09] and putting that in the message.

[00:37:11] What I love and I get the personalization is different for mass or high volume

[00:37:16] hiring, but if you are reaching out like in a head hunt situation,

[00:37:22] if you put together a very well worded thought out message

[00:37:27] you'll get a response.

[00:37:28] Yeah, all really good points.

[00:37:30] But I do think there's not a lot of outreach out there from recruiters.

[00:37:36] Recruiters that are sourcing and reaching out directly to potential

[00:37:40] candidates is still very low.

[00:37:42] It's very low in Canada.

[00:37:44] Like the majority are relying on the candidates coming to them

[00:37:49] and responding to their job ad switch.

[00:37:52] You have to have really good recruitment marketing to make sure

[00:37:55] that they're seeing you and they're applying for those jobs.

[00:37:57] But I love that we're having these discussions on whether the best

[00:38:02] practice for recruiters when reaching out because I do think we're going

[00:38:06] to have to do a lot more of this.

[00:38:08] I think the recruiting market, there is a skills mismatch.

[00:38:13] There's a lot of people applying for jobs.

[00:38:14] Don't get me wrong.

[00:38:15] But to get the right quality candidate, you're probably going to have to find them.

[00:38:20] This is where reaching out.

[00:38:22] So sourcing and referrals should be a big part of your talent acquisition strategy.

[00:38:27] So in that note, Shelley, I need to go take a nap.

[00:38:32] Exhausted.

[00:38:34] So I'm looking forward to our event with Plum Humanly and AMS.

[00:38:40] Should be lots of fun.

[00:38:42] And I hope the Toronto Maple Leafs lose.

[00:38:43] But we'll see.

[00:38:45] Ooh, ooh, hot take.

[00:38:47] Thank you, Serge.

[00:38:48] Arvois.

[00:38:52] Shelly, let's face it.

[00:38:59] Texting candidates is the easiest way to hire quicker today.

[00:39:03] But your cell phone doesn't connect to your ATS.

[00:39:05] You're sharing your personal number with strangers.

[00:39:08] That's pretty scary, right, Shelly?

[00:39:10] And it's not even legally compliant.

[00:39:13] This is where our friends at Rectex come in.

[00:39:15] They've created simple yet powerful text recruiting software that works

[00:39:19] with your ATS plus it's designed by recruiters for recruiters.

[00:39:25] So you know what works to learn more and book a demo, visit www.rectxt.com.

[00:39:34] Mention the recruitment flex and get 10% off annual plans.

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