Talent Acquisition Excellence w/Bas Van de Haterd

[00:00:00] Welcome to the recruitment flex with Serge and Shelley, I'm Serge.

[00:00:10] And I'm Shelley and we talk all things recruitment starting right now.

[00:00:17] Bonjour and welcome to the recruitment flex.

[00:00:20] Shelley, we've had this guy on the show way too much, but I figured we'd bring him on again,

[00:00:26] because he is our favorite Dutchman.

[00:00:29] Yes, our friend from overseas, very pleased and excited to have back on the show to talk

[00:00:38] about his new book coming up.

[00:00:40] Joining us today is Boz Vondahathred. And he is co-author of a new book

[00:00:47] that's going to be released here in Canada,

[00:00:49] February 27th called Talent Acquisition Excellence.

[00:00:53] And he's co-authored with Kevin Wheeler.

[00:00:55] Boz, welcome back to the show.

[00:00:58] Thank you very much.

[00:00:59] And it's actually launching the 21st in the US

[00:01:02] in the 2017 Canada.

[00:01:03] It's already out in Europe for some reason.

[00:01:06] We're ahead of you guys for once in our life.

[00:01:09] Awesome, super excited.

[00:01:14] We've got lots of things we want to talk about,

[00:01:16] but for the audience who's not met you before,

[00:01:19] or maybe hadn't listened to the back catalog,

[00:01:21] start things off with giving us a little bit

[00:01:23] about your background, Please, boss.

[00:01:26] Well, my name is Bosfel Nahathurt. I live in the center of the Netherlands. And I have

[00:01:33] been in the industry for about 20 years now. My main two areas of consulting are in corporate

[00:01:41] career sites and recruitment marketing and actually in assessment and selection technology.

[00:01:46] I speak all over the world, going to Canada or the US to speak is still on my bucket list very

[00:01:52] high these days because I've had pretty much every other continent except for Africa. And I do a lot

[00:01:58] of podcasts and I run a massive research and event here the Netherlands. Cool. I think you missed one piece of trivia.

[00:02:06] This is book number six for you or book number five that you've published.

[00:02:11] It depends on how you count because one of them was an ebook.

[00:02:14] So that's always up for the bait.

[00:02:16] Was it actually a book?

[00:02:18] So then it's book number six.

[00:02:20] It's the first one in English.

[00:02:21] The others are all in Dutch,

[00:02:23] one that translated and actually had one copy sold on Kindle.

[00:02:28] So that wasn't really count.

[00:02:31] So let's talk a little bit about, first of all, Kevin Wheeler is regarded as the OG of

[00:02:39] talent acquisition, certainly here in North America.

[00:02:43] So talk a little bit about your inspiration for writing the book and joining forces as a co-author with Kevin.

[00:02:49] Well, to be honest, the reason was very simple. COVID hit. My agenda all of a sudden completely

[00:02:56] cleared up. I assumed Kevin's route as well. He's one of my biggest inspirations, one of the

[00:03:05] my biggest inspirations, one of the most influential guys in the industry.

[00:03:08] I've known him for years now.

[00:03:13] And I just reached out like, Kevin, I've got nothing to do.

[00:03:16] Would you do me the honor of co-authoring a book with me?

[00:03:21] And he immediately replied and said, I've been wanting to write a book forever, but never been able to get past chapter one.

[00:03:24] So when you on my side, having published five books, I might actually finally finish a book forever but never been able to get past chapter one. So when you on my side,

[00:03:25] having published five books, I might actually finally finish a book. So yeah, let's do this.

[00:03:30] It actually took until we physically met when it was safe to travel again two years later,

[00:03:35] when we finally started writing it. But during COVID, we had weekly calls, we collaborated,

[00:03:41] which was just very nice and inspirational to do.

[00:03:45] What is the biggest pain about writing a book?

[00:03:49] What is the biggest challenge?

[00:03:51] The biggest pain of writing a book.

[00:03:54] First of all, it's writing the stuff that needs to be in there,

[00:03:58] but isn't really inspiring to write.

[00:04:01] So I wrote a definition of what I consider to be employer branding. What

[00:04:07] do you consider to be an employee value proposition? Because you need to define stuff in order

[00:04:14] for a book to make it readable. In an article, you can just say, you need an employee value

[00:04:20] proposition and nobody will start debating that. In a book, there's a lot of things in there

[00:04:25] and this is an American publisher, which means that they're afraid to get sued a lot more than

[00:04:32] European publishers. So they need a reference for everything you say. So you really do. Yeah.

[00:04:39] Everything you put in there needs a reference. If you say, Facebook has this, they're like,

[00:04:46] can I get a reference of this? Which article are you referencing? And in Europe, it's usually

[00:04:51] about can we give some credibility and the Americans are a lot like, can we make sure we won't get

[00:04:57] sued? I want to deep dive into the book. There's a couple of things that really piqued my interest.

[00:05:04] Focus on credentials versus job performance. Sometimes we have the mentality that you need

[00:05:09] 20 years of university, 20 years of experience before you can be good at your jobs.

[00:05:14] So what are some of the myths surrounding formal education and actual job performance?

[00:05:22] The biggest myth is that there's a correlation. I mean, I always use

[00:05:26] the example and I know this is not a Canadian heavy sport, but of soccer. We call it football.

[00:05:33] And I don't know if you've ever heard of a club called Inter Milan, one of the biggest

[00:05:37] teams in Italy, right? Now, that was a guy who was actually a goalkeeper at Inter Milan for 13 years.

[00:05:47] His resume says 13 years of being a goalkeeper at Inter Milan.

[00:05:51] And during that time, he played two games.

[00:05:54] So that's experience for you.

[00:05:57] His resume reads 13 years.

[00:06:00] He was sometimes allowed to be on the bench and they actually the second match.

[00:06:03] They only allowed him because he was retiring

[00:06:06] What I always do if you look at credentials and I'm not even talking about formal education

[00:06:11] We'll probably get to that later, but when it comes to how many years of experience do you need?

[00:06:16] so a

[00:06:17] Hiring manager comes to me and says we need at least four years of experience

[00:06:21] And I always ask what do you learn in the last month?

[00:06:24] They're like, how do you mean? the last month? And they're like,

[00:06:25] how do you mean? I said, apparently three years and 11 months isn't good enough. So what has this

[00:06:29] guy learned in the last month? Yeah, yeah, don't take me so literally. Okay. So what have you learned

[00:06:35] in the last six months? And we go back and eventually I'm like, so how do we describe the

[00:06:40] experience? What do you somebody have done? And I can tell you, I got thrown

[00:06:45] in the deep end when I was just out of college. Literally, my first first job was running

[00:06:52] a business unit. I was completely unqualified, and I screwed that up pretty well, but I learned

[00:06:59] so much that I now do have the experience, especially how not to do it, which is also why I don't

[00:07:07] want to talk. But that's a different story. I'm not saying experience doesn't matter.

[00:07:12] I'm saying we shouldn't measure it in years.

[00:07:14] Let's talk about formal education, obviously here in North America, especially in the US.

[00:07:21] The school you went to, your GPA, what you took is usually the first thing that's

[00:07:27] written in the job description. In Europe, is it very similar to North America where formal

[00:07:33] education is like the number one criteria that most recruiters look for?

[00:07:38] Europe isn't one country, as you most remember.

[00:07:42] And yes, yes, yes. Yeah, no, and actually, no, but on this part, there's

[00:07:46] a very big difference between countries. So UK is much more America oriented, like Oxford,

[00:07:54] Cambridge, eaten, very important. In Germany, and Shelley, you might know that because you

[00:07:59] have the sun there, if I'm not mistaken, when you apply, you send your grades along, which is completely

[00:08:06] uncommon in the Netherlands, except for lawyers, for some reason, we always went to grade list

[00:08:10] and all the rest never look at it. By the way, the fact that in Germany, you always send

[00:08:16] your grades along even way into your career is probably the reason they have the lowest

[00:08:21] labour market discrimination in the world. Lowest?

[00:08:25] The lowest.

[00:08:26] Talk a little bit about that, boss.

[00:08:29] It's the hypothesis.

[00:08:30] Actually, Northwestern did amazing research on all the discrimination researchers in the

[00:08:35] world.

[00:08:36] America and Canada are actually very low on that list.

[00:08:40] You don't discriminate as much as, for example, us Dutch.

[00:08:44] The worst country in the world is the French. The worst country in the world is the French.

[00:08:46] The second worst in the world is the Swedish.

[00:08:49] It's probably because the Swedish,

[00:08:51] if you hire somebody,

[00:08:53] you pretty much can't fire that person effort.

[00:08:56] So you go with what you know,

[00:08:57] which is the white guy called Serge Pedro, for example.

[00:09:01] Although that's even a French name,

[00:09:03] so they might be already hesitant about that.

[00:09:06] It says, nobody likes to French in Europe.

[00:09:09] Now that's not true, we like to have party with

[00:09:12] and their excellent taste in wine.

[00:09:15] Not their work ethic.

[00:09:17] Well, so in your opinion,

[00:09:20] what is the importance of formal education

[00:09:24] going into a world of skill-based hiring?

[00:09:29] It depends on the education.

[00:09:32] I really like my pilot to have a pilot license.

[00:09:35] Yes.

[00:09:36] I really like my nurse to have her nursing license or his nursing license to know which

[00:09:42] fame to put it in. I don't give a rat's ass what my recruiter studied.

[00:09:49] I think IT is actually one of the things

[00:09:52] where we looked the least for formal education

[00:09:55] because so many people are self-taught

[00:09:59] and we replaced them with coding tests,

[00:10:01] which are now because of JetVPN

[00:10:03] not that accurate anymore,

[00:10:04] but they were the first to say, listen, somebody with a formal education in IT,

[00:10:10] we still have no clue if this guy or girl can program or develop anything.

[00:10:16] So let's test it.

[00:10:17] You're seeing the shift right now, but we're still, I think, too hung up on formal

[00:10:23] education.

[00:10:24] And I'm not saying formal education doesn't matter.

[00:10:29] I'm just saying we should look at what did the guy or girl

[00:10:33] actually learn during that actually.

[00:10:37] What's your advice to practitioners

[00:10:39] or talent acquisition leaders

[00:10:40] that are dealing with hiring managers

[00:10:43] that are demanding a certain set of qualification.

[00:10:46] Let's use a recruiter role, right? Here in Canada, there's CPHR, which is a designation.

[00:10:53] What advice would you give for them to push back on these hiring managers?

[00:10:58] The first question I always ask them is, give me your best recruiter or your best two or three recruiters.

[00:11:05] Let's see what those people did.

[00:11:07] And I can tell you, pretty sure, one of them, usually all of them,

[00:11:13] do not have the formal education you're requiring.

[00:11:16] I had this discussion once with a headhunter in IT,

[00:11:20] and he literally told me, listen, I have four hiring managers.

[00:11:24] And all of them said a formal IT education is mandatory,

[00:11:29] because else they don't understand the big picture, blah, blah, blah.

[00:11:32] And he's who's your top performer?

[00:11:34] And everybody mentioned one guy in every team.

[00:11:38] And those top performers,

[00:11:39] neither of them had formal educations in IT,

[00:11:43] and all the rest of the team had.

[00:11:45] So he's saying, okay, so you're telling me that you would be willing to let your top

[00:11:49] performer, your 10x guy, the guy you think is 10 times as good as all the others, you

[00:11:56] don't want me to look for a second one.

[00:11:59] Okay.

[00:12:00] Now, if you're thinking more structural and that's actually what we try to do in the book,

[00:12:04] and I hope you read that we've got you know the structure and then the tactics the operations

[00:12:09] Yeah, also because Kevin is much more the structure. I'm more of the tactical side which

[00:12:15] Why I loved our collaboration so much he looks it from a global TA leader perspective and then I'm like okay

[00:12:22] and how would the Dutch or the Canadian TA leader implement this underground? And so what I recently did at one of my clients was we

[00:12:33] had to buy a new ATS anyway and I said, okay, with every new rec entering, I want to find competencies

[00:12:43] for this job.

[00:12:45] And everybody was like, yeah, yeah,

[00:12:46] but they're just gonna fill something in.

[00:12:48] I'm like, that's amazing.

[00:12:50] Because we've got them thinking about skills

[00:12:54] and we're building a database of the skills

[00:12:56] we eventually have to go measure.

[00:12:58] But at least we've got the conversation going

[00:13:01] and we're not gonna measure anything yet

[00:13:03] because this organization,

[00:13:04] I literally hired our first person dedicated to recruitment. You know, this was HR recruitment

[00:13:09] and everything is always gone the same way and blah, blah, blah. This was like level

[00:13:14] zero for the model, which is in the book. We're buying an ATS basically for the, they

[00:13:20] had an ATS, which I wouldn't call an ATS. So it was Excel on steroids, basically.

[00:13:25] And now we're buying an actual ATS.

[00:13:28] And I said, we're gonna put in skills.

[00:13:30] And then somebody said,

[00:13:32] we actually bought this interview manual once.

[00:13:35] Should we look at them if we can give them skill-based

[00:13:40] questions in the interview setting to the hiring managers?

[00:13:43] And everybody's like, oh, they're not gonna accept that. And all the hiring managers are like, wow, amazing.

[00:13:47] Not why no, after a while.

[00:13:49] No, I know what to ask. Yeah.

[00:13:51] And it turned out they wanted it twice. And everybody in HR was always afraid to give

[00:13:56] them advice because they were that arrogant and you know, hiring managers will never accept.

[00:14:00] And they loved it.

[00:14:03] So, boss, I'm glad you started the conversation here around that

[00:14:06] because the recruitment process itself, when I read through the book, I was like, yes,

[00:14:14] okay. So there is some universal view in the recruitment process. Can you maybe just give

[00:14:22] the audience an idea of what are some of the global similarities?

[00:14:27] Because you just touched on it.

[00:14:28] I know that's exactly the same process we follow here in Canada and the US.

[00:14:33] But I think for a lot of our audience, we tend to think they must do it differently in

[00:14:37] the Netherlands or they must do it differently in Japan.

[00:14:40] What would you point to is that global standard and recruitment process?

[00:14:44] What the basic process is the same all over the world.

[00:14:47] It's just certain dynamics which are different, certain laws which are different.

[00:14:52] You start with an intake, you either advertise or source, you do a pre-screen, you do the interviews.

[00:15:02] I know that phone screens are much more common in the US and Canada than

[00:15:07] they are in Europe. The Netherlands, because we're a small country, we do a lot more on-side interviews

[00:15:14] because literally for my house, there's no place I can't be in two hours by car. It depends on how

[00:15:21] your laws are. So for example, I know you guys have a lot of background checking

[00:15:26] and things like that because you can get sued as an employer in the Netherlands. And this is one

[00:15:31] of the very few things I think we've done right when it comes to employment law. We have what we call

[00:15:38] declaration of no objection, which the employer sends to the Ministry of Justice. This is the things this guy is going to do.

[00:15:47] So in my case, it was like he's going to consult for HR jobs.

[00:15:52] They will link my tasks to potential misdemeanors or conviction.

[00:15:59] Wow.

[00:16:00] And they will tell them, it's okay.

[00:16:02] You can hire this guy.

[00:16:03] If I was to work with kids and I had a

[00:16:06] drunk driving, no problem. If I am to drive a taxi and I had a drunk driving, red flag. If

[00:16:13] I was to work with kids and I had a sexual offense, red flag. And it caused you 15 quid to do the

[00:16:21] background check, except for some really high up jobs. That's most of the background screening we do.

[00:16:27] And it depends a lot on how your labour market is.

[00:16:30] I did a lot of work in the Middle East until last year.

[00:16:34] They hate advertising because they get at least 10,000 resumes.

[00:16:38] Of which 9,900 are completely on qualifying.

[00:16:42] They've been working a lot more with free screening tool.

[00:16:49] Here in the Netherlands, we've noticed, for example, that if you advertise your jobs in English, you get a lot more resumes as well from India, Pakistan and

[00:16:54] all those areas in the world, where we're not allowed to hire the dynamics around

[00:17:00] the job are different.

[00:17:01] The process is very close to universe.

[00:17:05] Yeah.

[00:17:06] So one more thing I wanted to ask kind of a global perspective

[00:17:09] on and that is for someone who is out of TA

[00:17:13] or head with a function.

[00:17:15] And when they're faced with a decision

[00:17:18] of building your in-house team versus RPO or outsourced,

[00:17:24] when you look around the world, are there different

[00:17:27] things to be aware of or consider if you're going to bring in-house or

[00:17:31] outsourced? I think there are different things that are considered. I'm not sure

[00:17:36] if they should be. So I know that Kevin talks a lot about RPO because in the

[00:17:42] US RPO is a really big thing.

[00:17:45] In the Netherlands, we see almost no genuine RPO and we see a lot of embedded talent solutions.

[00:17:53] So I know there's one company which says they RPO'd everything out,

[00:17:57] but then the company still has their internal decision on their corporate careers website.

[00:18:01] I'm like, that's no RPO because you're forcing them to use

[00:18:05] incompetent tech. You chose the ATS, not the RPO, so that's not RPO. And actually, this

[00:18:12] was one of the big debates between Kevin and me because Kevin loves his RPO and I am always

[00:18:18] questioning a lot. Maybe because I haven't seen really great examples because most of what i see is in the

[00:18:25] Netherlands is half baked either have it raw or not at all but anyway we came to the conclusion

[00:18:32] with and this was one of the many debates Kevin and i had at some point we knew we were both right

[00:18:39] yet we were on the completely opposite side of the the coin when it came to RPOs.

[00:18:45] And we came to the point where we said,

[00:18:47] if your C-suite treats you like a call center,

[00:18:51] act like one and go RPO.

[00:18:54] If your C-suite put their money where their mouth is

[00:18:56] and says, talent is our biggest asset.

[00:18:59] So at the Facebooks, at the Googles, at the Amazon's

[00:19:03] or at Emirates Airways.

[00:19:05] Give you an example.

[00:19:08] Here's enough budget to do something really serious.

[00:19:11] Keep it in-house because if you've got the budget, in-house always works better.

[00:19:17] Thank you.

[00:19:18] I believe that too.

[00:19:20] So one of the things that I'm quite passionate about is programmatic advertising and in Canada

[00:19:27] programmatic is not taking any leaps Europe has been and I know Europe is a bunch of different

[00:19:33] countries so I get that but overall as a continent they have not adopted programmatic advertising

[00:19:41] the same way as the US has.

[00:19:44] Are we going to catch up with the US in leveraging programmatic advertising the same way as the US has. Are we going to catch up with the US

[00:19:46] in leveraging programmatic advertising?

[00:19:48] Because I just read an article the other day

[00:19:50] that 82% of marketing is bought true programmatic advertising.

[00:19:58] Why are we not doing that in our activity?

[00:20:01] I actually don't know if we are that far behind the US, to be honest.

[00:20:06] I think it's more a definition piece.

[00:20:09] I've always heard people talk about they don't do a programmatic and I'm like our job boards, most of them don't.

[00:20:16] But then again, indeed does and indeed is most of the job board market in many countries and most of our ad money goes into campaigning these

[00:20:26] days, not the job boards and campaigning you do on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Google,

[00:20:32] which is all programmatic. The thing is, most advertising agencies don't call it programmatic

[00:20:39] because the buyers don't know what programmatic is unless they listen to Chad and Cheese,

[00:20:43] they just say we do it pay per click. I think it's more of a definition thing than that we actually don't do programmatic. Now,

[00:20:51] I will admit US and the job boards, CIP Recruiter, things like that, those are ahead of us.

[00:20:58] In the Netherlands, Monsterboard is still big. Yeah, they're still alive. They're still kicking.

[00:21:03] They're still pretty decent. You have to remember that we all have employment agencies in every country,

[00:21:11] which as soon as you have a job, it's mandatory to put your job open on their website and free.

[00:21:18] And in many countries, that's the biggest job board. So why don't we do it from a romantic? Because we've got free advertising paid for

[00:21:26] by the National Labor Association.

[00:21:30] Fair enough.

[00:21:30] That's a good point.

[00:21:32] In your book, you start talking quite a bit about AI,

[00:21:35] and I know AI has been the biggest topic of conversation

[00:21:39] and talent acquisition, I would say,

[00:21:40] over the last year and a half.

[00:21:43] Just curious, what's your overall perspective on

[00:21:47] AI in the talent acquisitions basic is it going to be good or bad? Oh

[00:21:53] That's a is a car good or bad it gets you from a to be but it's now destroying the environment

[00:22:00] I don't know about good or bad and it has a lot of things about how we're going to use it. It has an amazing potential upside. You go back to the recruitment marketing

[00:22:10] piece. What we described in the book as well is what we call next generation programmatic,

[00:22:15] where we're not just bidding, but we're also adjusting ads to people who've seen it to

[00:22:22] see how far along the journey from a candidate to becoming

[00:22:26] an applicant is search already. There's a great case study in there from a guy here

[00:22:31] in the Netherlands who was doing traineeships. And they had a very unknown brand looking

[00:22:39] for technicians, which is like insanely scarce. And then he was able to fill each and every one of his traineeships.

[00:22:48] Six months before those people graduated.

[00:22:51] All of a sudden, videos started popping up in their Facebook feed.

[00:22:55] Then Insta feed about doing a traineeship and learning more types.

[00:23:00] And some didn't. But he was able to see how long did they watch the video.

[00:23:06] And then he literally said, so many people said to me, yeah, it's so weird. I actually saw your ads

[00:23:12] like six months ago. And now all of a sudden this job ad pops up in my feet. I had to reply.

[00:23:18] And he's like, yeah, that's not weird. That's called remarketing. But now technology can do that on steroids.

[00:23:26] Actually, technology might be able to give search

[00:23:29] a little bit of a different ad than Shelley.

[00:23:33] For example, a male versus a female photo.

[00:23:36] So we've seen so many and there are a few case studies

[00:23:38] in the book on great advertising on persona based.

[00:23:44] One of the things I'm thinking will be there in 2025,

[00:23:48] dynamically adjusting job ads.

[00:23:51] Every job has at least 20 or 30 things which might excite you.

[00:23:57] But there are only five of them which are well-excited search

[00:24:01] and maybe Shelley will have one of them in common,

[00:24:03] but she finds four other ones

[00:24:06] interesting. Let's serve out not what I as a recruiter think is the most interesting part of the job

[00:24:12] but based on your behavior what you think what the AI thinks is for you as a person the most interesting part of the job is that the salary is that the flexible time

[00:24:27] is that the theme is that the remote working options, I don't know, adjusting for everybody.

[00:24:35] So Bob, it's really good perspective.

[00:24:37] It's one of the elements that I think we can all agree recruitment marketing is going

[00:24:41] to get better with AI, where I guess I have more concern is when

[00:24:47] it comes to candidate selection side of the equation, right? And how companies are going to

[00:24:52] leverage AI potentially to tip the scale for when candidate over the other as a very intellectual

[00:25:00] guy. What's your concerns about leveraging AI to potentially shortlist, candidate match,

[00:25:07] or even in some cases, select the person they're going to hire.

[00:25:13] As an intellectual, I will give you an intellectual answer.

[00:25:16] It depends.

[00:25:17] I'm sorry.

[00:25:18] I've been talking to two many scientists on exactly this topic.

[00:25:23] If you compare it to the current state of human, basically it can't get any worse.

[00:25:29] There isn't a single profession in the world where you can feel half of the time and still

[00:25:41] have a jaw, except for recruiters. If your legal team

[00:25:45] make contracts, which were only legal half of the time, I'm pretty sure you had a

[00:25:51] problem as a lawyer. If your salary was only correct 50% of the time, your

[00:25:57] salary administrator would be kicked out, right? And before recruiters were like,

[00:26:01] yeah, yeah, calm me out. So the bar is extremely low.

[00:26:06] From that perspective, I'm saying the only way is up because we pretty much can't screw

[00:26:11] it up anymore than we're already doing.

[00:26:14] We asked that question to Hilka, who wrote the book, the algorithm.

[00:26:19] And one of the things that she said is, okay, if I have a bias, it may be affecting 10 people

[00:26:24] that go onto the bias.

[00:26:26] But if the algorithm has a bias,

[00:26:28] we could potentially affect millions of people.

[00:26:32] It just scales way bigger,

[00:26:34] which I think is part of the concern.

[00:26:38] And that's actually my second part on the it depends.

[00:26:42] Yes, because she's right, it scales. Now, unfortunately, human bias skills as well because we're also still discriminating a lot.

[00:26:52] Clean every part of the equation. But the great thing about algorithms is we can basically torture them to give up their biases.

[00:27:03] basically torture them to give up their biases. We can simply beat the algorithm, check it.

[00:27:07] And the one thing I've been trying with hiring managers

[00:27:10] is literally telling, so why are you

[00:27:12] rejecting Muhammad or Kareem and not search?

[00:27:16] They'll always find something in the CV

[00:27:20] why that wasn't the perfect match, right?

[00:27:23] The algorithm, we can fix that.

[00:27:26] Amazon, the famous case, actually ordered the algorithm,

[00:27:30] and hey, no women came true.

[00:27:33] Oh, maybe we need to delete this algorithm, which they did.

[00:27:36] Oops, didn't work.

[00:27:38] Yes, I agree that it's a big risk.

[00:27:40] That's why we need algorithm auditors.

[00:27:44] That's why we need to be very careful of what

[00:27:47] we're doing. Very careful. The great thing is the EU is having an AI act soon, which has actually

[00:27:55] said hiring and everything which has to do with HR is highest risk. And you need to take every

[00:28:02] measure possible. And it it actually says and I'm

[00:28:05] really curious to see how they are going to enforce it but it actually says you're

[00:28:10] only allowed to use scientifically validated measures to select. So basically

[00:28:16] that's also saying you can't select on a CV anymore because there's no scientific

[00:28:20] research ever shown that the CV works. I'm not sure if they completely thought that part through,

[00:28:28] but within the algorithms,

[00:28:30] it's gonna be a lot better checked.

[00:28:33] I agree.

[00:28:34] I think it's gonna be a really interesting time

[00:28:36] for the next little while.

[00:28:37] So, boss, there is a lot of info out there

[00:28:41] for recruiters and talent acquisition leaders.

[00:28:44] Why should your book be the

[00:28:47] book that they read? First of all, because I wrote it with Kevin Wheeler. It gives it some

[00:28:54] credibility. I'll agree with that. That gives it a lot more credibility because it's probably the

[00:28:58] only transatlantic corporation in a book because it's got us and Europe in there you can learn from each other and what I personally like to most about

[00:29:08] Book is the fact that we have high level strategic thinking

[00:29:13] models

[00:29:15] combined with

[00:29:16] tactical underground how should you be doing this and

[00:29:21] What I personally think makes it unique is the scenarios. We wrote

[00:29:26] recruitment fiction on fictive companies. How did they do it?

[00:29:32] What did they do and not do? And I love writing those.

[00:29:38] They were good. I love the example. And I think it's one of

[00:29:41] the things that I enjoyed most about the book.

[00:29:45] The other thing too is for any recruiter, sometimes having resources right next to you

[00:29:49] and the ability to go back and take the book, take the notes.

[00:29:53] This is one, in my opinion, and I think Shelley, you share this, it's one of those books that

[00:29:59] you should have next to you and be able to leverage on a daily basis as a practitioner.

[00:30:04] So, Boz,

[00:30:05] if anyone wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

[00:30:09] Without a doubt, LinkedIn.

[00:30:11] Okay.

[00:30:12] And my new website from the Hatterspund.nl just launched today by accident. By the way,

[00:30:19] there wasn't planned for this podcast.

[00:30:21] Perfect timing.

[00:30:22] Boz, thank you so much for coming on again. It's always good to see you, our favorite Dutchman on the show.

[00:30:28] Thank you so much.

[00:30:29] Thank you, Boss.

[00:30:32] Arvua.

[00:30:34] Shelly, let's face it, taxing candidates is the easiest way to hire quicker today.

[00:30:45] But your cell phone doesn't connect to your ATS.

[00:30:47] You're sharing your personal number with strangers.

[00:30:50] It's pretty scary, right, Shelley?

[00:30:52] And it's not even legally compliant.

[00:30:55] This is where our friends at RecText come in.

[00:30:57] They've created simple yet powerful text recruiting software

[00:31:01] that works with your ATS.

[00:31:02] Plus, it's designed by recruiters for recruiters

[00:31:06] so you know it works. To learn more and book a demo, visit www.recctct.com.

[00:31:16] Mention the recruitment flex and get 10% off annual plans. Welcome change agents to your go-to

[00:31:22] place for stories that ignite your spirit, fuel

[00:31:25] your purpose, and connect us all.

[00:31:27] We believe in the incredible power of the human spirit, its boundless resilience, and

[00:31:32] the inspiration it brings to our lives.

[00:31:35] On the Driving Change podcast, we'll journey together through the extraordinary, yet very

[00:31:40] relatable experiences of some of the most amazing people on Earth.

[00:31:44] Our mission?

[00:31:45] That through these stories we might just spark change within you

[00:31:49] and awaken a newfound motivation to harness your unique gifts

[00:31:53] to make a real difference in the world.

[00:31:55] So get ready to be inspired and join us on this incredible adventure.

[00:31:59] You can find the Driving Change Podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

[00:32:03] iHeartRadio or wherever you love listening to your

[00:32:06] favorite podcasts.