Move Fast. Break S***. Burnout.

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Recruitment Flex with Serge and Shelly. I'm Serge.

[00:00:10] And I'm Shelly. And we talk all things recruitment starting right now.

[00:00:15] Bonjour and welcome to The Recruitment Flex, Shelly. I feel very lucky today because I

[00:00:23] am surrounded by not one but three very smart, intelligent and gorgeous ladies. I'm really

[00:00:31] excited to bring them on the show. Yes, Serge. It is just another day in paradise

[00:00:36] for you, isn't it? Yeah.

[00:00:38] Surrounded by women. And so let me get right to it. I'd like to introduce Tracy Lovejoy

[00:00:44] and Shannon Lucas. They are co-founders of Catalyst Constellations and co-authors

[00:00:50] of the book Move Fast, Break Shit and Burnout. Welcome to the show, Shannon and Tracy.

[00:00:58] Thank you so much for having us.

[00:01:00] Hi, Laura.

[00:01:01] So for the audience that has not read your book or maybe heard you speak before, can I

[00:01:07] start with the lovely, the talented Tracy Lovejoy? What a great last name.

[00:01:12] Thank you. I do love my last name. It's my maiden name and when I got married I

[00:01:16] didn't change it because... Oh.

[00:01:18] Very near and dear to my heart. My background, really I think of myself as having two primary

[00:01:22] identities outside of being a very lucky co-CEO with Shannon. My background originally came

[00:01:28] out of research and so I was a student of anthropology. I moved directly into the

[00:01:33] tech world where I got to bring my love of studying people and culture into innovation.

[00:01:40] Once I was doing that what I saw in my love of studying people was that I just as much

[00:01:47] love studying the people directly in front of me within my workplace as I did going out

[00:01:51] and studying people in the actual research projects. And that's where I landed into

[00:01:56] coaching. And so I had gone into coaching to make myself a better leader while I was

[00:02:01] leading research teams in-house and I had that thing you hear of like, you

[00:02:06] hear the angels, the guy parts and it was like this is a calling. That's what it felt

[00:02:11] like which is really it sounds lovely people long for it but it's incredibly

[00:02:16] disruptive when you have a career path. And so it was not an easy choice to say

[00:02:22] I'm gonna leave a cushy job in tech and go and hang a shingle. When I was

[00:02:28] about 40 I had a moment saying what am I gonna be proud to tell my kids I

[00:02:33] made a decision of at this age and I couldn't deny that working with people to

[00:02:38] make their lives better was what I loved. And so once I got out I was still a

[00:02:43] researcher and so who do I want to do this with and I started figuring that

[00:02:47] out researching it and when I looked at the favorite clients I'd had over time

[00:02:51] what I saw was they all have these similar traits. People who have this

[00:02:56] just innate drive to make the world around them better. People who would

[00:03:00] set these goals that were big and audacious and even they would think they

[00:03:05] were ridiculous sometimes when they'd say it. And I took that as a starting point

[00:03:11] to go and study these folks more and finally had someone name it for me to

[00:03:16] say I'm a catalyst and I was like yeah you are that's what this category of

[00:03:21] person is. And so that really became the beautiful dance that brought Shannon

[00:03:26] and I together because Shannon was one of the people that I was working

[00:03:28] with. She was an ultra catalyst obviously and I was interviewing her for

[00:03:34] the research and I'm going to jump in and turn it over to Shannon because this

[00:03:38] is where our story begins. This is where our story intersects and the

[00:03:42] reason that I had hired Tracy was because I was four years into a career

[00:03:47] at Vodafone building out a global innovation program and I was burning

[00:03:52] out and I was burning out even though by any definition of an innovation

[00:03:57] program and an enterprise we were crushing it. Tens of millions in your

[00:04:00] pipeline, products to market completely changing how we engaged with our

[00:04:05] customers. But the core of the program for us was finding people that we

[00:04:10] called the positive troublemakers that we brand them innovation champions

[00:04:14] around the world. And our goal was to not have an ivory tower of

[00:04:19] innovation but really build this muscle across the organization. Stop

[00:04:23] reinventing the wheel. Give them a shared language. Accelerate the impact.

[00:04:27] Over the four years we had grown it from eight people to over 100 certified

[00:04:31] innovation champions but it was always about like 30% that was leaning in and

[00:04:37] I would spend all of my time trying to sort of catalyze or activate the other

[00:04:42] 70% and I couldn't figure it out. And because we were so successful I had

[00:04:47] every tool at my disposal, rewards, CEO sponsorship, training,

[00:04:51] gamification. And so I got a coach and that coach is my now amazing co-CEO

[00:04:57] Tracy Lovejoy. And so as we were working together and she shared that

[00:05:01] readout of what it meant to be a catalyst, it was like,

[00:05:04] holy shit, I feel so seen. And this just contextualizes that thing that

[00:05:09] defined me. Whether I was a network engineer, I was a student,

[00:05:12] I was doing technical sales. It was always about trying to improve the

[00:05:15] things around me and help those around me do the same. And it just

[00:05:19] became really clear. This is a category of people who are going to

[00:05:23] make the world better, but organizations don't understand them and

[00:05:28] they often don't understand themselves. And it's pretty early on where like

[00:05:31] we need to write the personal operating manual for these people so

[00:05:34] that they can self identify and understand themselves better. We

[00:05:38] co-wrote the book that I needed 20 years ago. I stayed in the

[00:05:42] corporate world for a couple more years because I had a couple more

[00:05:45] innovation hypotheses, but the goal was in 2020 to come together

[00:05:48] to write the book. And now we have the good fortune of having

[00:05:51] identified a customer profile that happens to be some of the most

[00:05:54] amazing people to work with in the world.

[00:05:56] I'm going to have a lot of questions on the co-CEO thing and

[00:06:00] how that works. But before we get there, I'm curious, I didn't

[00:06:05] know what a catalyst was before I read the book. So, Shannon,

[00:06:10] do you mind defining what a catalyst is? And maybe Tracy

[00:06:13] after if you can give a little bit of sense of why it would

[00:06:16] be important to look at catalysts when it comes to talent

[00:06:20] acquisition, especially on the leadership side.

[00:06:23] Yeah, so being a catalyst is really a way of moving through

[00:06:27] the world. What Tracy and I decided early on was it's not

[00:06:31] about helping people who raise their hand to be change makers

[00:06:34] like this is either through nurture or nature who we are

[00:06:37] for better or worse than how we move through the world. And

[00:06:40] some of the common elements are we're dot connectors. So that

[00:06:44] constant scanning and piecing together information, read a

[00:06:47] sci-fi book, talk to a customer, read the McKinsey report. And

[00:06:52] as you're connecting those dots, you start to see particularly

[00:06:55] if you're in a large organizational context, the

[00:06:57] thing that needs to change. And you're seeing that often

[00:07:00] before other people around you are. If we stopped there, we

[00:07:04] would call them visionaries. But one of the thing that

[00:07:06] really defines us is this insane need to move into action

[00:07:10] quickly. And the moving into action actually is part of our

[00:07:13] iterative process, because we'll see the vision. We'll start to

[00:07:16] test it with people, we'll get some feedback and we'll improve

[00:07:19] the vision we call that the catalyst formula. As you can

[00:07:22] hear in that one of the things that we do the ways that we

[00:07:24] move through the world is we have this experimentation mindset

[00:07:27] because often people haven't done what we've done thus far.

[00:07:31] We write it's hard to write the business case often for the

[00:07:33] net new thing that we're going to do. The final piece is

[00:07:37] interesting, because it's more about how people describe us

[00:07:40] rather than how we might describe ourselves because

[00:07:42] people look at us and say, oh, well, you're really comfortable

[00:07:44] with taking risks. And for us, the question or the statement

[00:07:49] is more it's risky not to do this thing. There is also a

[00:07:53] sliding scale like our comfort with ambiguity and like Tracey

[00:07:56] is a researcher, she loves the data. I'm an ultra catalyst,

[00:08:00] I move with my gut and I even have a harder time articulating

[00:08:03] that others about why we need to do what we do. So it

[00:08:06] is a range of catalyticness, but overall that defines

[00:08:09] us. Perfect, Tracey. So obviously, talent acquisition is

[00:08:14] changing dramatically. And one of the challenges that we've

[00:08:19] had is we're not moving quick enough overall as an industry

[00:08:23] in itself. So why would a company want a catalyst being a

[00:08:28] talent acquisition leader?

[00:08:31] Catalysts are the people we want in a time that disruption

[00:08:35] is happening. Yes. And we need to be more agile, we need to be

[00:08:40] thinking in new ways. We need to be looking beyond the silos

[00:08:44] that exist in the businesses that we're in to see what other

[00:08:47] people don't. Yeah. And so, you know, Shannon's talking about

[00:08:52] catalysts are the folks that are doing the dot connecting

[00:08:55] across the abstracts, across the seams. And so they come in

[00:09:00] with a systems thinking approach to be able to look at why

[00:09:05] are we doing things this way given the new world and where we need

[00:09:07] to go? How can we do it better?

[00:09:11] So I want to just dive into the book a little bit more. And I'm

[00:09:14] going to start with the title, like we talk about move fast.

[00:09:18] And then we'll talk about break shit. That's very interesting

[00:09:21] as well. And then of course, the burnout piece, but let's

[00:09:24] zero in a bit on the move fast part.

[00:09:27] So one thing about the book title because not everyone

[00:09:30] gets this. And I think it's an important distinction, which

[00:09:33] is the move fast break shit burnout is not what we're

[00:09:36] advocating for. It's how we move through the world.

[00:09:41] It's what happens to us if we're not intentional about and

[00:09:44] understand who we are as catalysts. And so the book then

[00:09:48] is the response to the guide to working well. So I just

[00:09:51] wanted to call that out, or we're not advocating for

[00:09:53] people burning out as an example.

[00:09:56] It's a self help book. Correct? Operating manual. Yes.

[00:10:00] Do you know what I found was interesting as I'm reading it?

[00:10:03] I thought to myself, who would actually pride themselves in

[00:10:06] moving slowly? Honestly, like, okay, what are the

[00:10:10] professions that move slowly? And that would be, you know,

[00:10:13] lawyers, right? They have a vested interest in moving

[00:10:16] slowly and cautiously perhaps consultants that are paid by

[00:10:21] the hour or I don't know if you've ever worked with

[00:10:23] marketing and creative they need their time. Right? Don't

[00:10:27] make me move fast because it just doesn't work for them.

[00:10:30] So the race just always seems to be on. So what makes the

[00:10:34] catalyst so distinct? And you started a little bit when

[00:10:39] you talked about, well, if you only went to this point,

[00:10:42] you're a visionary. Right? Are you talking about somebody

[00:10:46] can come in and what would take anyone else two months?

[00:10:49] They've got it in two hours. Are we talking like that

[00:10:53] fast?

[00:10:54] I'm going to jump in here. So when we work with

[00:10:56] organizations, we run programs called catalysts

[00:10:59] programs. And this is where we go in, we help them

[00:11:01] identify catalysts with attributes that are also

[00:11:04] going to help them be successful in that cultural

[00:11:06] context, which is important. But just today as an

[00:11:10] example, we're helping one cohort pivot from week

[00:11:13] three to week four. And they were stuck in a

[00:11:17] swirl last week. And when you see the readout

[00:11:19] and what they did, I had to reflect back to them

[00:11:21] was like, you guys have done all of this in

[00:11:23] three weeks. We set the expectation but they

[00:11:27] just can't imagine if you give them the skills,

[00:11:30] the structure and a little bit of support and

[00:11:32] that network across the organization, what they

[00:11:34] can accomplish in just like mind boggling speed.

[00:11:38] I'd love to go back to who wants to be called slow

[00:11:40] and I don't know, it's such a good question. And

[00:11:42] we certainly don't mean to imply that we're

[00:11:44] trying to call people slow. Because when we

[00:11:47] first named catalysts, to be honest, I was

[00:11:49] nervous that this would be insulting to some

[00:11:51] people, which is part of what I hear in the

[00:11:53] question. And so I remember very at first

[00:11:56] timidly talking about this. And what I often

[00:11:58] find is that people for whom it doesn't

[00:12:01] resonate are like, oh, that's not me. But I

[00:12:05] know that girl. That's my husband. And so

[00:12:09] it's not necessarily that they would sit and

[00:12:12] say I'm slow as much as they're like, yeah,

[00:12:15] they move around in a weird pace.

[00:12:19] It seems uncomfortable and I'm not interested

[00:12:21] in frankly. So that was really interesting

[00:12:24] for me in response that way.

[00:12:26] Yeah, that is interesting because one of the

[00:12:29] things that I've noticed with very successful

[00:12:31] people, entrepreneurs, business leaders or

[00:12:33] even leaders in our space, they work at a

[00:12:37] different pace and the ones that are very

[00:12:40] successful have been able to manage that

[00:12:42] right? Like they work at a fast pace but

[00:12:44] highly organized, highly structured, getting

[00:12:46] to the right answers, figuring out what's

[00:12:48] important, what's not important. But it

[00:12:51] brings me to this day and age. Right now,

[00:12:54] if you look at the pace of everything, of

[00:12:56] how we work compared to when I started

[00:12:58] working 20 years ago is literally I would

[00:13:00] get like a fax, maybe not a fax, maybe

[00:13:03] I'm exaggerating. That's jelly time but

[00:13:06] my time.

[00:13:07] Jen.

[00:13:08] Yeah, I would get a...

[00:13:10] Exactly. But you're looking at like Slack,

[00:13:13] Teams, all of these tools that are made

[00:13:16] to communicate fast. Being a catalyst could

[00:13:19] be a big driver of success, right?

[00:13:22] Yeah, absolutely being a catalyst could be a

[00:13:24] big driver of success because the idea that

[00:13:27] disruption is only in certain places has

[00:13:29] been totally upturned. Disruption is

[00:13:32] everywhere in the wake of the pandemic

[00:13:35] and the global market chain shifts, etc.

[00:13:37] I'd say while the tools of technology

[00:13:41] that you're pointing to certainly

[00:13:42] support all of us, they can drive

[00:13:46] catalysts to the equal destruction and

[00:13:50] distraction as everyone experiences.

[00:13:53] Everybody needs some time for heads down

[00:13:56] focus and thought and those things are

[00:13:58] really hard for all of us.

[00:14:00] Does it support that desire to be able

[00:14:04] to quickly take a step?

[00:14:07] Sure, but it's tough.

[00:14:10] It's tough.

[00:14:11] It is really tough, right? Like we're

[00:14:13] bombarded.

[00:14:14] I would say there though is that being

[00:14:16] a catalyst in a large organization

[00:14:18] historically has been a pretty lonely

[00:14:20] endeavor.

[00:14:21] Myth understood, not fitting in the molds.

[00:14:25] There's a lot of negative feedback that

[00:14:27] we might have gotten from organizations.

[00:14:29] So one way that tools do support people

[00:14:32] and this whole move to virtual is we

[00:14:33] can create the connectivity tissue for

[00:14:35] catalysts across an entire organization.

[00:14:38] And again, going back to a call we just

[00:14:40] had today, one of the teams did a

[00:14:41] check-in about their energy.

[00:14:43] They're all virtual.

[00:14:44] We were teaching them to constantly

[00:14:46] check in on that energy.

[00:14:47] So the team called, they're like, yeah,

[00:14:48] we're coming in at a three out of ten.

[00:14:49] And after an hour together in virtual

[00:14:52] time, just being together

[00:14:54] with other catalysts for an hour had

[00:14:56] completely changed their energy level.

[00:14:57] So I do think that there is a special

[00:15:00] way that catalyst can leverage the

[00:15:02] technology to keep their energy and

[00:15:03] connectivity going.

[00:15:06] Yeah.

[00:15:06] It's not always our behaviors

[00:15:09] in the moment that are the key

[00:15:12] element of move fast for us.

[00:15:14] It's the way that we're taking in

[00:15:16] information and translating that into

[00:15:19] opportunity and possibility.

[00:15:21] So it doesn't necessarily have to be

[00:15:23] quite so literal of, I want to send

[00:15:25] three emails, I have to get on chat.

[00:15:27] And it goes back to Shelley's question

[00:15:29] on what makes us distinct or, you

[00:15:30] know, are we really seeing it in two

[00:15:32] minutes or two hours?

[00:15:34] There are things that catalysts see

[00:15:35] that some people will never see.

[00:15:38] And this was part of what Shannon

[00:15:39] was sharing is that being a catalyst

[00:15:41] is really a way of being.

[00:15:43] So speed is at peace that we

[00:15:45] highlight in the title of the book.

[00:15:47] But it's taking in all that

[00:15:49] disparate information and filtering

[00:15:51] it into visions of how the world

[00:15:52] can be better that literally are

[00:15:54] not visible to people around you.

[00:15:56] And that's the thing that can be

[00:15:58] really jarring for catalysts,

[00:16:00] because it looks as if there's a

[00:16:02] spotlight shining on this thing

[00:16:05] because when all the information

[00:16:06] comes together, it feels obvious to

[00:16:08] us.

[00:16:09] And you heard that in Shannon

[00:16:10] saying to us, it feels riskier

[00:16:12] not to do it.

[00:16:14] I just didn't understand when

[00:16:16] Tracy first showed me a thing, the

[00:16:17] part of that bolt of lightning was

[00:16:19] like, oh my, like that thing.

[00:16:21] Oh my God, they don't just not

[00:16:23] want it. They can't see it.

[00:16:25] I can't.

[00:16:27] Well, how frustrating is it for

[00:16:29] a catalyst to work with

[00:16:30] non-catalysts, especially leaders?

[00:16:33] How frustrating is it?

[00:16:34] It adds to burnout.

[00:16:35] It adds to the burnout, right?

[00:16:36] And that was again, I just go

[00:16:38] back to that moment.

[00:16:38] Like I remember where I was

[00:16:39] sitting, what the weather was

[00:16:41] like when Tracy told me, because it

[00:16:42] was so transformational.

[00:16:44] I didn't understand that my own

[00:16:45] context was different from them in

[00:16:47] such a fundamental way.

[00:16:49] And part of the reason for the

[00:16:50] book and the class and the work is

[00:16:52] to help catalysts understand who

[00:16:53] they are in relationship, because

[00:16:55] just that knowledge then starts

[00:16:57] to give us this spaciousness of

[00:16:59] they're not trying to be

[00:17:00] frustratingly slow.

[00:17:02] They're not trying to

[00:17:03] obstinately not see the thing.

[00:17:05] And then once you start to get

[00:17:07] the tools that we teach in the

[00:17:08] class, it helps the catalyst

[00:17:10] bring the other people along

[00:17:12] on the journey.

[00:17:14] And there's two dynamics, right?

[00:17:15] If you're a catalyst with a non-

[00:17:17] catalytic boss, what that

[00:17:18] experience is, there's a lot

[00:17:20] of trauma that happens there,

[00:17:21] especially again for the unaware

[00:17:23] catalyst who doesn't understand

[00:17:24] how they're showing up differently.

[00:17:26] Alternatively, we work with a lot

[00:17:28] of catalyst managers like that is

[00:17:30] not easy. So it's about also

[00:17:31] helping the catalyst leaders

[00:17:33] manage better.

[00:17:35] But I think that's true for any

[00:17:36] intersectionality, right?

[00:17:38] The more that we cultivate our

[00:17:39] own awareness and empathy as a

[00:17:41] big piece of how we move through

[00:17:42] the world, it just helps everyone

[00:17:44] be better and support everyone to

[00:17:46] be their best selves.

[00:17:47] And I think that's especially

[00:17:48] important when we think about

[00:17:51] the change part, what needs to

[00:17:52] change, what needs to be broken

[00:17:54] or disassembled.

[00:17:55] And in the book, you talk

[00:17:56] about the iteration toolbox,

[00:17:58] the prototype and the pivot.

[00:18:01] So while failing

[00:18:04] or breaking something is good

[00:18:06] to a catalyst, what do we

[00:18:08] need to think about when you

[00:18:10] look at the people around you,

[00:18:11] maybe others on the team?

[00:18:13] What are some of the things that

[00:18:14] we need to bear in mind?

[00:18:18] Shannon was touching on this

[00:18:19] beautifully. And so first of all,

[00:18:20] from those two words, the

[00:18:21] break shit is you grow your

[00:18:23] awareness as a catalyst.

[00:18:25] You can see bodies

[00:18:27] in your wake that were broken

[00:18:29] accidentally that with maybe

[00:18:31] your intensity or your drive,

[00:18:33] you weren't paying attention.

[00:18:34] And this connects to your

[00:18:35] question, Sergio, what does it

[00:18:36] feel like to be with non

[00:18:37] catalyst? It's going to depend

[00:18:39] on those people's relationship

[00:18:40] to change. Yeah, they don't have

[00:18:42] to be a catalyst to have a positive

[00:18:44] relationship to change.

[00:18:45] And so if people are open and

[00:18:47] exciting and want to co-create

[00:18:48] a vision together with you for

[00:18:50] a catalyst, that's awesome because

[00:18:51] we need non catalysts to

[00:18:53] really build the processes

[00:18:55] and operationalize things in a

[00:18:56] business.

[00:18:57] But if you have a set of folks

[00:18:59] around you that are really

[00:19:00] resistant, especially

[00:19:02] that passive resistance,

[00:19:05] it's super hard.

[00:19:06] And so we can be breaking shit

[00:19:07] and not paying attention to

[00:19:09] where people sit and how

[00:19:10] they're reacting.

[00:19:12] And then we end up breaking

[00:19:14] relationships.

[00:19:15] And so what we want to do is

[00:19:17] bring intentionality

[00:19:19] and choose what we break.

[00:19:21] And so it's, hey,

[00:19:23] I'm going to question why

[00:19:25] we're doing something this way

[00:19:26] because I think it's stopping

[00:19:27] us from achieving a key goal

[00:19:29] that we're setting in a

[00:19:30] strategic level.

[00:19:31] And so can we agree as a

[00:19:33] group that maybe we

[00:19:35] want to break this?

[00:19:36] And can we do this together?

[00:19:40] Right. That's the right stuff

[00:19:41] to break.

[00:19:42] And you're doing it in a way

[00:19:44] that's respectful of others

[00:19:46] bringing them along and not

[00:19:48] breaking relationships as you

[00:19:50] go into Shannon's point

[00:19:52] become very aware of the

[00:19:54] iteration cycle you're

[00:19:55] talking about, Shelley, of

[00:19:56] making sure people are coming

[00:19:58] with me because I

[00:20:00] can iterate so fast

[00:20:02] and that can be driven by

[00:20:03] this deep purpose-filled desire

[00:20:06] to make the world better.

[00:20:08] But in organizational context,

[00:20:10] in a community context,

[00:20:11] in a societal context,

[00:20:14] if we don't have a lot of

[00:20:16] people beginning to work on

[00:20:17] that change,

[00:20:19] it's not going to be sticky.

[00:20:21] And so I have to let go

[00:20:23] of the constant need of

[00:20:24] iteration and potentially a

[00:20:25] strive for perfection

[00:20:28] to have this begin

[00:20:30] to have a movement of people

[00:20:32] coming along with it.

[00:20:35] What's interesting,

[00:20:36] recruitment has not been known

[00:20:37] to break shit.

[00:20:39] We've been doing the same thing

[00:20:41] 20, 40 years, just

[00:20:42] a little bit better technology,

[00:20:45] better process.

[00:20:46] But overall, the experience hasn't

[00:20:48] changed that dramatically

[00:20:50] since the 1950s.

[00:20:51] Right? So we have not

[00:20:53] been known to break shit.

[00:20:54] But we should.

[00:20:56] So what's your advice here

[00:20:58] for that talent acquisition

[00:20:59] leader that's been a little bit

[00:21:00] afraid to step out of that

[00:21:02] box? Like it's in their head

[00:21:03] and they might be at a corporation.

[00:21:05] It's like, can I do it?

[00:21:07] Am I going to piss off the hiring

[00:21:08] managers? Because a lot of what we

[00:21:10] do is working with hiring

[00:21:12] managers and candidates and there

[00:21:14] is an act of persuasion

[00:21:16] or working with them closely.

[00:21:18] So how for that person

[00:21:19] that's sitting there and be like,

[00:21:20] I really need to break shit here.

[00:21:22] This is not working.

[00:21:23] What's your advice to them?

[00:21:24] Shannon, do you want to take that one?

[00:21:26] Yeah, I mean, it's interesting

[00:21:28] that you had said earlier about

[00:21:29] some of the roles that have

[00:21:31] traditionally been known as moving

[00:21:33] slow. And as a catalyst leader,

[00:21:35] it's always been super helpful for me

[00:21:36] actually to find the catalyst

[00:21:38] illegal and the catalyst in talent

[00:21:40] acquisition.

[00:21:42] And if I think about the things

[00:21:44] that as a business leader,

[00:21:46] I asked for my HR business

[00:21:48] partner who helped me with

[00:21:49] acquisition, it was

[00:21:51] really doing things

[00:21:52] differently and doing them fast.

[00:21:56] I have always cultivated

[00:21:58] for diversity on my team

[00:22:00] in all of the different forms.

[00:22:02] And so I would come and challenge

[00:22:04] I was like, our pipeline is not

[00:22:06] going in the right places

[00:22:08] and we have to shake that up.

[00:22:10] I need a diverse talent pool

[00:22:12] yesterday.

[00:22:13] So it's not just I need you

[00:22:15] to go to nondraditional places

[00:22:16] to source candidates.

[00:22:18] I need you to move at a completely

[00:22:20] different speed because the expectation

[00:22:21] of the organization as a change

[00:22:23] leader is also different.

[00:22:25] So if I speak to the talent

[00:22:26] acquisition people,

[00:22:27] especially if there's catalysts

[00:22:28] there, I personally would start to

[00:22:30] think about where some of the most

[00:22:31] catalytic leaders

[00:22:33] that I can partner with who are

[00:22:35] going to have the business side

[00:22:37] vision and requirements

[00:22:39] that I can start to activate on.

[00:22:41] And this is what Tracy was talking

[00:22:43] about before what we teach

[00:22:44] catalysts to do.

[00:22:46] And when you're talking about

[00:22:46] breaking shit is you

[00:22:49] have to be clear about what the

[00:22:50] guardrails are.

[00:22:51] Yeah. And so my legal

[00:22:53] partners weren't breaking the law

[00:22:55] with me, but they were

[00:22:56] thinking differently about how

[00:22:58] we could flex IP agreements

[00:23:00] as an example.

[00:23:00] Right. And so the same is true for

[00:23:02] HR, like how can we get

[00:23:04] curiosity about how we can speed

[00:23:05] this process up?

[00:23:07] How can we find business partners

[00:23:08] who are going to help us find

[00:23:10] nondraditional and maybe we even

[00:23:12] go all the way to how we write

[00:23:13] our job descriptions?

[00:23:14] So I think it's about finding

[00:23:16] business partners that are

[00:23:18] excited about moving, having

[00:23:19] the clarity and having those

[00:23:20] business partners help you

[00:23:22] with the guardrails of what's

[00:23:24] inbound and what's outbound

[00:23:25] and then feed that back into the

[00:23:27] organization in a way that Tracy

[00:23:28] said, like look what we did.

[00:23:30] Look what we learned and start to

[00:23:32] bring other people on the journey

[00:23:33] with you.

[00:23:35] I'd encourage folks to, especially

[00:23:37] if they don't identify as a

[00:23:38] catalyst, look for the

[00:23:41] challenges.

[00:23:42] Identify and

[00:23:44] frame up the problem spaces

[00:23:47] and then challenge

[00:23:48] yourself to like how could we

[00:23:50] solve that? When I think of

[00:23:51] talent acquisition today, right?

[00:23:53] Retention.

[00:23:54] What does that look like in the

[00:23:55] business you're in today?

[00:23:56] Where are we struggling with that?

[00:23:58] How might the role we play in

[00:24:00] this support the business

[00:24:02] to this global issue we're

[00:24:03] experiencing?

[00:24:05] And once you can identify the

[00:24:07] problem and as Shannon says,

[00:24:08] connect into other catalysts,

[00:24:10] you're going to be breaking the

[00:24:11] right shit together.

[00:24:13] Love it. Great advice.

[00:24:14] That is such good advice.

[00:24:16] Thank you.

[00:24:17] I want to jump into the

[00:24:19] burnout phase of it.

[00:24:20] And I'm going to make the

[00:24:21] argument on this podcast

[00:24:23] that the last four

[00:24:25] years, if you think about

[00:24:27] any type of role that has

[00:24:29] experienced the most burnout, I

[00:24:30] would say HR and talent

[00:24:33] acquisition would be really big

[00:24:34] because you think about when the

[00:24:35] pandemic hit, a lot of it

[00:24:37] fell on HR making sure that

[00:24:38] their employees sending them up

[00:24:40] virtually all of this.

[00:24:41] And obviously we've gone through

[00:24:43] the great resignation.

[00:24:44] We've gone through quiet

[00:24:46] firing. But we've had a lot

[00:24:48] of leaders and a lot of high

[00:24:50] driving leaders just like opt out

[00:24:52] the last year being like, I'm

[00:24:54] done. Like I can't take any more

[00:24:56] of this. So how can we

[00:24:58] avoid burning out?

[00:25:00] What's your advice there?

[00:25:02] Tracy, do you want to start with

[00:25:03] this one?

[00:25:04] Yeah.

[00:25:05] The most important thing for

[00:25:07] any human when we think

[00:25:09] about burning out is paying

[00:25:11] attention to the reality

[00:25:13] of where we are in terms of our

[00:25:15] energy.

[00:25:16] Yeah. Sometimes burnout can

[00:25:18] fall into the category of

[00:25:19] this mysterious thing that all

[00:25:21] of a sudden I wake up and I

[00:25:22] was burned out.

[00:25:24] And yet when we look back,

[00:25:26] there was a path and if we see

[00:25:27] the equation of energy

[00:25:29] out pandemic

[00:25:32] giving my heart losing

[00:25:34] people laying people off

[00:25:36] having to find talent when it's

[00:25:37] impossible.

[00:25:39] Great resignation, right? These

[00:25:40] things hitting the HR and

[00:25:41] talent community.

[00:25:43] Heart wrenching lots of energy

[00:25:45] out.

[00:25:46] And so we'll encourage people

[00:25:47] the more stressful a moment in

[00:25:49] your personal or professional

[00:25:51] life, the more you have to be

[00:25:52] thinking about the energy in.

[00:25:54] Yeah. So if you imagine

[00:25:56] your literally your body, mind,

[00:25:58] spirit as a bucket

[00:26:00] as a living thing always

[00:26:02] have things dropping out the

[00:26:04] bottom of our bucket. We all

[00:26:05] have a constant hole at the

[00:26:06] bottom of our bucket and the

[00:26:07] more stressed we are, the

[00:26:09] bigger that hole gets.

[00:26:11] And so you have to be adding

[00:26:13] a whole lot more water.

[00:26:15] And so is that more

[00:26:17] time alone?

[00:26:18] Is that more time exercising?

[00:26:20] Is that more time connecting with

[00:26:21] people and each of us have

[00:26:23] different things that will fill

[00:26:24] our bucket?

[00:26:25] So that first piece of advice

[00:26:27] related to burnout is pay

[00:26:28] attention and acknowledge and

[00:26:30] give yourself the

[00:26:31] permission

[00:26:33] to say, Hey, my bucket's

[00:26:35] empty.

[00:26:36] Look at what's contributing to

[00:26:37] why it's empty

[00:26:39] and then think about how can

[00:26:41] you fill that up in meaningful

[00:26:42] ways.

[00:26:44] I would just add, I think HR

[00:26:46] also has a crucial

[00:26:48] role in helping

[00:26:50] to change some of that culturally

[00:26:51] within organizations, which does

[00:26:53] come back and put more pressure on.

[00:26:55] I totally acknowledge that.

[00:26:56] But as we're having

[00:26:57] conversations with, you know,

[00:26:59] potential employees or as

[00:27:01] we're thinking about how we support

[00:27:02] existing employees normalizing the

[00:27:03] conversation

[00:27:06] is super important.

[00:27:08] And it is really tough, right?

[00:27:10] There's still a stigma

[00:27:12] around talking about, Hey, I'm

[00:27:13] burning out. And if you think

[00:27:15] about like our generations

[00:27:17] is like there's no way we could

[00:27:18] have done that early in our career.

[00:27:20] But the mentality has changed

[00:27:22] and the openness to it.

[00:27:23] And even in the last four or five

[00:27:24] years, it's been completely

[00:27:26] different. There is that

[00:27:27] willingness to have those

[00:27:28] discussions. But personally,

[00:27:29] this is my opinion.

[00:27:31] I still think the great majority

[00:27:33] won't share that they're

[00:27:35] burning out, right?

[00:27:36] Like they've been trained to

[00:27:38] just plow true and get

[00:27:40] things done. And catalysts are

[00:27:41] probably the most guilty of

[00:27:43] doing that.

[00:27:45] Indeed, there's an interesting

[00:27:47] double edge sword about having

[00:27:49] that passion and purpose and

[00:27:50] fire, because it can be

[00:27:52] sustaining for a really long time

[00:27:55] until it's not.

[00:27:56] But then if it's really aligned

[00:27:57] with your personal purpose and

[00:27:58] passion, it's hard to say no to

[00:28:00] and take walk away from.

[00:28:01] So it is something we need to be

[00:28:03] careful of.

[00:28:04] As I listen to you talk, this is

[00:28:06] fantastic. And we're all

[00:28:07] thinking, am I a catalyst?

[00:28:09] So was the book written for

[00:28:11] self help for the catalyst?

[00:28:12] Or was it to help

[00:28:15] those around the catalyst?

[00:28:17] Know how to lead

[00:28:19] us, lead them.

[00:28:21] Who was this written for?

[00:28:23] It was absolutely written for

[00:28:25] the catalyst. We had a really

[00:28:27] awesome idea in mind that we did

[00:28:28] not execute, which is we were

[00:28:29] going to do a double sided book,

[00:28:30] one for the catalyst and one

[00:28:32] for the managers or the people

[00:28:33] around the catalyst.

[00:28:35] We just made the clear decision

[00:28:37] the catalysts need to see

[00:28:38] themselves first.

[00:28:39] We need to support them first.

[00:28:41] And then we start to give them

[00:28:42] language to talk to their

[00:28:44] partners and kids and bosses

[00:28:46] and stuff like that.

[00:28:47] We are starting to collect the

[00:28:49] information to help the managers

[00:28:51] and leaders around catalysts to

[00:28:53] help them contextualize why

[00:28:55] they're so important that they're

[00:28:56] not just a pain in the ass.

[00:28:58] If you give them a little bit of

[00:28:59] water in sunlight, they can do

[00:29:00] amazing things.

[00:29:02] A lot of organizations need

[00:29:05] to recruit catalysts and

[00:29:07] it can be tough.

[00:29:08] What do you look for?

[00:29:09] Whether the key things that you

[00:29:10] should be asking and listening

[00:29:13] as you're interviewing and

[00:29:14] trying to attract them to your

[00:29:15] company. What's your advice

[00:29:17] there to recruiters as first?

[00:29:18] What should they listen in and be

[00:29:20] like, ah, that's probably a

[00:29:21] catalyst.

[00:29:22] And so is this to attract the

[00:29:24] catalyst or is this to identify

[00:29:26] the catalyst?

[00:29:27] Let's do both because we want to

[00:29:28] track them then when we attract

[00:29:30] them. We're still not sure.

[00:29:31] And this is where the interview

[00:29:32] process goes in.

[00:29:34] I'll start with how you attract

[00:29:35] them. And we did some actually

[00:29:37] really great research in both of

[00:29:38] these areas.

[00:29:40] So Shannon has mentioned several

[00:29:42] times.

[00:29:43] Catalysts are very purpose

[00:29:45] driven.

[00:29:46] And so you need to make sure

[00:29:49] that whatever it is that you

[00:29:51] organizationally dream to do in

[00:29:53] the world is very clear

[00:29:55] that it's clearly stated that

[00:29:57] it's something that are going to

[00:29:58] help people get out of bed.

[00:30:00] They need to see that there's

[00:30:01] an opportunity for them to come

[00:30:03] in and solve really interesting

[00:30:05] problems that matter.

[00:30:06] So if the business context

[00:30:08] right now is very much at a

[00:30:09] stable maintenance phase,

[00:30:11] then a catalyst is probably

[00:30:12] not super attracted.

[00:30:14] They want to come in where there's

[00:30:16] things that the executive

[00:30:18] branch is excited to let people

[00:30:20] really dive into and challenge

[00:30:22] ideas and beliefs.

[00:30:24] And related to that, if there's a

[00:30:25] culture where being able

[00:30:27] to ask questions to be curious

[00:30:29] to challenge is not allowed,

[00:30:32] then catalysts will be like, oh,

[00:30:33] that just feels bad to walk in

[00:30:35] the door. And so that openness

[00:30:37] to curiosity and to questions

[00:30:39] is going to be really key.

[00:30:41] That growth mindset has

[00:30:43] become so common in organizations

[00:30:45] today is going to be really

[00:30:46] important for that.

[00:30:49] The dedication

[00:30:51] to self-awareness

[00:30:54] of leadership is going

[00:30:56] to be another really good

[00:30:58] one because Shannon mentioned,

[00:30:59] and this will be much more for

[00:31:01] your very aware catalyst.

[00:31:03] Shannon mentioned that she

[00:31:04] didn't use the word trauma in

[00:31:05] particular, but she was hinting

[00:31:06] at it that a lot of our trauma

[00:31:08] can come from working for

[00:31:09] managers who really don't

[00:31:11] understand us and can actually

[00:31:12] begin to sabotage us.

[00:31:15] And so making sure that you

[00:31:17] have a leader that is really

[00:31:19] open to these discussions that's

[00:31:20] going to have your back that's

[00:31:22] showing you that there is open

[00:31:24] to their development and

[00:31:25] invested in yours as you are

[00:31:27] coming in is going to be really

[00:31:29] key. And that's not the

[00:31:30] culture of all organizations.

[00:31:32] We have a vision of having a

[00:31:33] top 100 catalyst friendly

[00:31:35] places to work.

[00:31:36] And I think increasingly this

[00:31:38] is going to be top talent that

[00:31:39] companies are going to recognize

[00:31:42] that they need to start tapping

[00:31:43] into. So if you're listening,

[00:31:45] the race is on.

[00:31:46] We're here to help you identify

[00:31:47] your catalyst.

[00:31:49] If you're asking the questions,

[00:31:50] there's a couple of things like

[00:31:51] in an interview one time,

[00:31:52] someone was like, you jumped around

[00:31:54] a lot in the Bay Area stayed

[00:31:55] in jobs for eight years

[00:31:56] and two different places.

[00:31:57] And like in the Bay Area,

[00:31:58] that's an insanely long time.

[00:32:00] But so one of the key things

[00:32:01] maybe you see that they've had

[00:32:03] either multiple roles in one

[00:32:04] organization or they've gone to

[00:32:06] a number of different organizations.

[00:32:07] So as an interviewer, I would want

[00:32:09] to understand the why

[00:32:11] and some of the hints will be like,

[00:32:12] I went in, I saw the thing,

[00:32:14] I did the thing, it was done

[00:32:16] and I was ready to move on to

[00:32:17] another problem, whether that

[00:32:18] was a role within the company

[00:32:20] or different one.

[00:32:21] When we help organizations

[00:32:23] actually identify and have an

[00:32:24] application across the

[00:32:25] organization, some of the

[00:32:26] questions in the application

[00:32:28] are things like tell me about

[00:32:29] a time that you had a vision

[00:32:31] and created change.

[00:32:32] Tell me about a time that you

[00:32:34] failed. What were your learnings

[00:32:35] from some of those things?

[00:32:36] So to Tracy's point, you're

[00:32:37] starting to identify some of the

[00:32:39] growth mindset and the scale.

[00:32:41] This isn't just like I took an

[00:32:42] Excel spreadsheet and optimized

[00:32:44] it better. It's like I was

[00:32:46] connecting dots across multiple

[00:32:48] disciplines so that I could be a

[00:32:49] better change agent.

[00:32:52] And then the other thing that

[00:32:53] sort of is a cautionary tale, but

[00:32:55] you can use your advantage if

[00:32:56] you are working smartly with

[00:32:58] leaders is Catalyst will

[00:33:00] follow those leaders that Tracy

[00:33:02] said get them.

[00:33:04] That means if I followed him

[00:33:05] through multiple organizations

[00:33:07] because and I didn't know it at

[00:33:09] the time, I didn't understand it.

[00:33:10] I knew that he supported me, but

[00:33:11] he saw in me the things that I

[00:33:14] was bringing to the table as a

[00:33:15] catalyst.

[00:33:16] And so if you don't have those

[00:33:17] leaders who are capable of seeing

[00:33:19] and supporting the catalyst, find

[00:33:20] them and cultivate them because

[00:33:22] they will be with that

[00:33:24] leader once they're gone.

[00:33:26] I was just going to say I

[00:33:27] applaud the idea of the top

[00:33:29] 100 list because

[00:33:31] if we look at job postings

[00:33:33] and I do all day long,

[00:33:35] having a growth mindset is very

[00:33:37] on trend.

[00:33:38] But do they really mean it?

[00:33:39] That's it.

[00:33:40] They ask for it.

[00:33:42] Oh, stay curious.

[00:33:43] It's very on trend.

[00:33:44] But I know very few

[00:33:46] organizations want you.

[00:33:49] They want rule followers.

[00:33:51] They want people who are going

[00:33:53] to be doers and get the work

[00:33:55] done.

[00:33:56] Yet we're asking

[00:33:58] like the job postings are

[00:33:59] asking for it.

[00:34:00] I think you've given us just

[00:34:02] such great advice

[00:34:04] of what to really listen

[00:34:05] for from the leaders.

[00:34:08] And you know, if you're an in-house

[00:34:10] recruiter, if that organization

[00:34:12] really does welcome

[00:34:15] being questioned.

[00:34:17] It's a good point, Shelley,

[00:34:18] because for the talent acquisition

[00:34:19] people like don't set people up

[00:34:21] for failure, right?

[00:34:22] The org really doesn't want it

[00:34:23] even though the JD says that's

[00:34:25] what they want.

[00:34:26] Be the filter that saves

[00:34:27] everyone the time and pain,

[00:34:29] right?

[00:34:30] Conversely, we do a lot of

[00:34:31] coaching with people because

[00:34:32] catalysts do go through job

[00:34:33] transitions, but they're looking

[00:34:35] for this nirvana.

[00:34:36] You know what catalysts will say

[00:34:37] to you?

[00:34:38] They will say, and this is to find

[00:34:39] my whole career, they will say,

[00:34:41] I want to work with awesome

[00:34:42] people on wicked good problems

[00:34:45] with the support that I need to

[00:34:46] get shit done.

[00:34:48] So if you can provide that

[00:34:50] to catalysts, we're like, we're

[00:34:51] in, but you have to mean it.

[00:34:54] You mentioned something in

[00:34:56] there that I think is very

[00:34:57] topical in talent acquisition

[00:34:59] and you talked about people moving

[00:35:01] jobs every couple of years or

[00:35:03] having multiple jobs within

[00:35:05] that one company.

[00:35:07] And unfortunately, that is

[00:35:09] seen as a very negative

[00:35:11] thing in the world of talent

[00:35:12] acquisition, not for recruiters,

[00:35:14] a lot for hiring managers.

[00:35:16] And it's one that I

[00:35:18] get challenged all the time as

[00:35:20] I'm recruiting they'll be like,

[00:35:21] well, they've had five jobs

[00:35:23] in the last 12 years.

[00:35:24] I don't see it as a negative

[00:35:26] because the ability to skills

[00:35:27] that you can get when in

[00:35:28] different organizations usually

[00:35:30] sets you up for success.

[00:35:32] But what would you say to that

[00:35:33] hiring manager that's like,

[00:35:35] ah, yeah, they've had four jobs

[00:35:38] and they're staying three years

[00:35:39] like they're a job hopper.

[00:35:41] How can you help us

[00:35:43] convince that hiring manager

[00:35:45] that this is not a bad thing?

[00:35:47] Absolutely. If you know you

[00:35:49] need someone to support you

[00:35:51] through disruption,

[00:35:53] you're only going to be able

[00:35:54] to keep that person engaged

[00:35:56] and happy as long as there's

[00:35:58] a juicy problem to be solved.

[00:36:00] If the catalyst is still having

[00:36:02] to try to solve that same problem

[00:36:03] after two years,

[00:36:05] I'm questioning what's going on

[00:36:07] in the business, right?

[00:36:09] And so either the business

[00:36:11] has to be prepared to move

[00:36:13] people or the catalyst is going

[00:36:15] to say, we have done

[00:36:16] an amazing job.

[00:36:18] Thank you for having me.

[00:36:20] And now I'm going to go take

[00:36:22] the talent skill I have

[00:36:23] and apply that somewhere else.

[00:36:25] You don't want to keep a catalyst

[00:36:28] in a place that's in maintenance.

[00:36:31] Yeah, it's unhappy for everybody.

[00:36:33] So to hiring managers,

[00:36:35] if you need these people,

[00:36:36] if this is the moment you need them,

[00:36:38] check their references.

[00:36:40] OK, if their past jobs say,

[00:36:42] oh my gosh, we couldn't have

[00:36:44] gotten to where we are.

[00:36:45] We couldn't have seen

[00:36:46] the innovative solution

[00:36:47] and they helped build the vision,

[00:36:49] bring people along,

[00:36:51] get it started,

[00:36:52] hired the right people

[00:36:53] to really make it stick.

[00:36:55] And we are better exponentially

[00:36:57] today because of it.

[00:36:59] It doesn't matter that they only

[00:37:00] stayed two years.

[00:37:02] That is advice.

[00:37:04] It is a big challenge for us

[00:37:07] with hiring managers for sure.

[00:37:09] So we love Shannon Lucas

[00:37:11] and Tracy Lovejoy.

[00:37:13] We want the audience

[00:37:14] to be able to find you.

[00:37:15] Shannon, what's the easiest way

[00:37:17] for someone to get ahold of you?

[00:37:18] Definitely go to the website

[00:37:20] catalystconstellations.com.

[00:37:23] All the juicy stuff is there,

[00:37:24] including a link to the book

[00:37:26] and our podcast, too.

[00:37:28] Yes, please do check out the

[00:37:30] podcast. It's really interesting

[00:37:32] in a mutual friend of ours

[00:37:34] introduced me to this whole

[00:37:36] catalyst world.

[00:37:37] And I really appreciate Jason

[00:37:38] for doing that.

[00:37:39] Thanks, Tracy.

[00:37:40] What's the best way for someone

[00:37:41] to get ahold of you?

[00:37:43] Same thing up on the website

[00:37:45] and connect with us on LinkedIn.

[00:37:47] We're both up there.

[00:37:48] Shannon Lucas, Tracy Lovejoy.

[00:37:50] So the book and I want to

[00:37:52] give the top of the title

[00:37:53] because we always forget this

[00:37:55] when the catalyst guides

[00:37:56] to working well, move fast,

[00:37:58] break shit, burnout.

[00:38:01] Check it out. It's available

[00:38:02] everywhere. I'm sure you can get

[00:38:03] a website, Amazon, all the other

[00:38:05] players. Ladies, thank you so

[00:38:06] much for joining us.

[00:38:08] Thank you. Thank you so much.

[00:38:09] Have fun.

[00:38:10] Thank you both.

[00:38:10] It's been a joy for us, too.

[00:38:13] Au revoir.

[00:38:22] Shelly, let's face it.

[00:38:23] Texting candidates is the easiest

[00:38:26] way to hire quicker today.

[00:38:27] But your cell phone doesn't

[00:38:29] connect to your ATS.

[00:38:30] You're sharing your personal

[00:38:31] number with strangers.

[00:38:33] It's pretty scary, right,

[00:38:34] Shelly? And it's not even legally

[00:38:36] compliant.

[00:38:37] This is where our friends at

[00:38:39] Rectex come in.

[00:38:40] They've created simple yet

[00:38:42] powerful text recruiting software

[00:38:43] that works with your ATS.

[00:38:45] Plus it's designed by

[00:38:47] recruiters for recruiters.

[00:38:49] So you know what works to

[00:38:51] learn more and book a demo.

[00:38:53] Visit www.

[00:38:55] R-E-C-T-X-T.com,

[00:38:59] mention the recruitment flex

[00:39:00] and get 10% off annual plans.

[00:39:03] How much do you understand

[00:39:05] the future of finance?

[00:39:07] I'm Jim Ruse, a top ten

[00:39:08] banking influencer and host

[00:39:10] of the podcast, Banking

[00:39:11] Transform, where we dive

[00:39:13] deeply into the rapidly

[00:39:14] evolving world of banking

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