Entitled

[00:00:00] This week on Recruitment Flex, Shelley turns 60.

[00:00:03] Wow!

[00:00:04] Are you sure about that dad?

[00:00:06] She looks so young.

[00:00:07] One of Canada's biggest companies is offering unpaid volunteer opportunities.

[00:00:14] Seekout lays off 30% of its employees.

[00:00:19] Plus, is GenX to blame for return to the office mandate?

[00:00:24] TRF with my dad and Shelley starts right now.

[00:00:34] Welcome to the Recruitment Flex with Serge and Shelley.

[00:00:36] I'm Serge.

[00:00:37] And I'm Shelley.

[00:00:38] And we talk all things recruitment starting right now.

[00:00:45] Bonjour!

[00:00:46] Shelley, you've got a big birthday coming up this weekend and I noticed I haven't received

[00:00:52] an invite to any party or anything like that.

[00:00:55] What's going on?

[00:00:56] I didn't want a party.

[00:00:58] I didn't.

[00:00:59] You know, my closest friends have invited me out for dinner and then the kids are

[00:01:02] taking me out for dinner.

[00:01:04] Although I like making a big splash about other people, it's not something I'm really

[00:01:10] comfortable with.

[00:01:11] Like my perfect birthday celebration would be me and two or three close friends and

[00:01:19] somebody just make sure I get home safely.

[00:01:22] Like we just go out and enjoy great food.

[00:01:25] Where are you going?

[00:01:26] What restaurants are you going?

[00:01:28] Is there?

[00:01:29] We don't know.

[00:01:30] So it's a full surprise.

[00:01:31] Yeah.

[00:01:32] It is my big birthday, meaning I'm turning 60.

[00:01:37] Mind blowing.

[00:01:38] Mind blowing, Shelley.

[00:01:39] That's so very nice.

[00:01:41] What are people supposed to say when you tell them that?

[00:01:43] Right?

[00:01:44] Because I've always been transparent about how old I am.

[00:01:47] I've never really cared.

[00:01:49] There's something funny about this year, about turning 60.

[00:01:55] I have this fear that people are going to treat me differently.

[00:02:01] I do.

[00:02:02] And it's not rooted in anything other than maybe when I was in my forties thinking 60

[00:02:08] is old.

[00:02:09] Well, I'm in my forties and 60, I'm not going to say feels old.

[00:02:16] Like when you think about what it's going to be like to be 60.

[00:02:19] When you say that, what do you mean?

[00:02:21] Do you feel that they're going to treat you like a senior citizen or not respect

[00:02:26] you as much or respect you more or just see you differently?

[00:02:30] I think of that movie Freaky Friday, where you switch bodies.

[00:02:35] No matter how old you are at the time, the other person always seems so old, even

[00:02:41] though on Freaky Friday, I think she's 14 and her mom is 30 or something like that.

[00:02:47] Right?

[00:02:48] And she just is horrified at being that old.

[00:02:50] And that's the whole fun of the movie is walking in someone else's shoes.

[00:02:54] Right?

[00:02:55] So I guess it's my fear that I will be treated like a senior citizen.

[00:03:02] Like I'm afraid.

[00:03:03] Do you fear that professionally or personally?

[00:03:06] Do you feel professionally it's going to affect anything for you?

[00:03:12] That's a really good question, Serge.

[00:03:14] A really good question.

[00:03:15] I do.

[00:03:16] You do?

[00:03:17] Yeah, I do.

[00:03:18] I think youth is always looked at for fresh ideas.

[00:03:23] And I know I'm certainly not out of fresh ideas.

[00:03:27] I probably come up with more ideas, future looking than anyone in their 30s would.

[00:03:33] Like half my age.

[00:03:35] Interesting.

[00:03:37] If you think about it, most CEOs, most CFOs, most executives are older.

[00:03:43] Right?

[00:03:44] It's just how it happens.

[00:03:45] When it's men, do we think differently because they're 60?

[00:03:51] I think it actually comes with a little bit of cachet and experience.

[00:03:55] And you've done it.

[00:03:56] You've gone through the wringer.

[00:03:58] You understand what works, what doesn't.

[00:04:00] So I don't see it as a negative as a businesswoman or professional.

[00:04:05] I think actually it gives you even more credibility.

[00:04:09] Interesting.

[00:04:10] Interesting.

[00:04:11] Because someone said to me recently, and I think it's when your view on the world

[00:04:16] starts to feel dated.

[00:04:19] You know what I mean?

[00:04:20] If you're a CEO who still refuses to listen, because we comment on it all the time,

[00:04:26] Serge, of CEOs of major corporations who are forcing employees to come back into

[00:04:32] the office, for example.

[00:04:35] And we feel like they're out of touch.

[00:04:38] They're out of touch with what's important to half the generations in their workforce

[00:04:43] right now, which would be the two youngest generations.

[00:04:46] And I think that's what I don't ever want to be.

[00:04:50] And when I am, Serge, I give you permission to pull me off the stage.

[00:04:54] Okay.

[00:04:55] Yeah.

[00:04:56] That's good to know.

[00:04:57] That's good to know.

[00:04:58] But on that note, the other item is we're just under two weeks away from TA Tech in

[00:05:05] Washington DC.

[00:05:06] There's still a couple of tickets left.

[00:05:08] So go on the site.

[00:05:10] You can use the code FRIENDS25.

[00:05:13] And we're going to the lineup this week with Stephen on TA Tech's Crowdcast.

[00:05:17] Man, it's just everyone in the industry that has any influence or power or smart

[00:05:24] IDs is going to be there.

[00:05:26] So if you're interested in what's happening in this space, you should be there.

[00:05:31] Plus, Washington's a pretty cool place to be, right?

[00:05:33] Yes.

[00:05:34] So a very tech savvy audience.

[00:05:36] That's part of what we're going to be talking about this Friday is just who's going to

[00:05:41] be attending.

[00:05:42] They are job boards and talent technology company CEOs, senior executives, rising

[00:05:49] stars as well as industry analysts and investors.

[00:05:52] So super tech savvy audience.

[00:05:56] So talking about tech savvy, how about we jump into the news?

[00:06:00] You can't wait to talk about this.

[00:06:03] So have you played around or have you seen anything on chat GPT's release of GPT-4-0?

[00:06:12] So all I have to do is see how your face lights up when you start talking about

[00:06:18] all the cool features.

[00:06:20] Roll away.

[00:06:21] I've not had a chance to dive into it as much as you have, but I can tell by

[00:06:25] the look on your face.

[00:06:27] You're just like, this is it's like chocolate.

[00:06:30] It's melting in your hands, sir.

[00:06:33] So Shelley, one of the things that I still to this day, I don't think I've realized

[00:06:38] how much chat GPT impacts my day-to-day work.

[00:06:43] Things that used to take me 10 hours, 20 hours are taking me two hours, three

[00:06:48] hours and I'm leveraging to fill in gaps when we're creating strategy, when we're

[00:06:54] creating copy, when we're creating like even go to market solutions, working with

[00:06:59] providers.

[00:07:00] I don't rely on it to drive all the IDs, but I rely on it to create the content

[00:07:06] that I need to be able to bring that ID forward, which is what takes months and

[00:07:12] years sometimes.

[00:07:13] Now we're talking about weeks.

[00:07:15] And if you're still not using chat GPT on a regular basis, man, you don't

[00:07:20] know what you're missing.

[00:07:21] You don't know how inefficient you've been.

[00:07:24] But last week, chat GPT four zero came out and there's some really, really cool

[00:07:30] features.

[00:07:30] And if you haven't watched the video, it's a 25 minute where they're going

[00:07:34] through some of the functions, but there's a couple that really stood out

[00:07:37] for me.

[00:07:37] First of all, they're really focused on voice, which makes a lot of sense.

[00:07:41] I have the chat GPT on my phone.

[00:07:44] Leveraging the voice aspect of it is really cool.

[00:07:47] Especially I was looking at the demo of the real time translation.

[00:07:51] And if you haven't seen that, man, that is so cool.

[00:07:56] Like literally you can travel anywhere and it's translating in whatever voice

[00:08:00] you want.

[00:08:00] It's very smooth.

[00:08:02] But imagine like how great a tool is that?

[00:08:04] Like I'm thinking about your daughter Brooklyn and I'm thinking about my

[00:08:08] kids when they start traveling.

[00:08:10] I know Brooklyn is going to England.

[00:08:12] So obviously we don't need to translate English to English or maybe it

[00:08:16] depends like some of the UK English.

[00:08:19] I have a hard time understanding, but that's just me.

[00:08:22] But think about she's traveling through Europe, traveling anywhere, the

[00:08:26] ability to do that direct translation right away on boat ends.

[00:08:31] Oh my God, that would be a lifesaver for a lot of people that travel a

[00:08:34] lot or are dealing in places of the country that there is a lot of

[00:08:38] Spanish here in Canada, a lot of French.

[00:08:41] We can now communicate in the same way.

[00:08:42] So I love that feature, but here is a feature that I really love.

[00:08:47] It's the tutor function.

[00:08:50] So I have three kids, as I've said on the podcast many times, I did really

[00:08:55] poorly at school, so I'm really nervous about tutoring my daughters when it

[00:09:01] comes to things like math and they were showing the example of, Hey,

[00:09:04] chat GPT here is my problem on the screen.

[00:09:08] Can you tutor me through this that I understand it and I can get to a

[00:09:12] conclusion, but don't give me the answer.

[00:09:15] The demo was amazing.

[00:09:17] It really guided through in a way that even the best tutor can do it the

[00:09:23] same way that they're doing it.

[00:09:24] Amazing function.

[00:09:25] So overall, I was really impressed playing around with it, seeing the

[00:09:29] videos I'm excited for this future of chat GPT continue expanding about.

[00:09:35] Any thoughts there, Shelley?

[00:09:37] No, I'm looking forward to playing around with it because I'm working

[00:09:39] on something right now where I've put together like at 10,000 feet.

[00:09:45] These are the objectives and I'd love to go in and play around with it

[00:09:49] and say, okay, so here's what I have.

[00:09:51] What am I missing?

[00:09:52] Yes.

[00:09:52] What are some parts that I need more information around or I need to be

[00:09:58] more clear about this almost like critique me.

[00:10:02] Yeah.

[00:10:02] And so if you were someone say who has never been in our industry and

[00:10:07] I'm trying to explain this concept to you, how would you explain it?

[00:10:11] I love that sort of thing.

[00:10:13] You know, what's really cool that I've been using lately.

[00:10:16] I'm really bad with pieces of paper and pen and I lose my paper.

[00:10:20] I write notes a lot.

[00:10:21] It's how I learned.

[00:10:23] So I've been using my iPad and the pencil on it and I love it, but the

[00:10:27] challenge is how do I convert that type of stuff into documents like word

[00:10:31] documents that I can share with you?

[00:10:35] And they have one of their GPTs when you're in to do basically

[00:10:39] written text to text and it does an amazing job.

[00:10:43] I think I showed you what it did.

[00:10:45] It took my like really bad handwriting and almost nailed it.

[00:10:48] I would say nailed it like at 90% and it created a really good document for.

[00:10:53] So a lot of the things that we do internally, like in business,

[00:10:57] I write out first.

[00:10:58] It's how I think, like I can't type it out.

[00:11:00] I need to write it out.

[00:11:01] I need to figure it out, but this to be able to convert it really well.

[00:11:05] Amazing.

[00:11:06] But the controversy that I wanted to share is, um, so the new voice and

[00:11:11] think of her, the movie, which I haven't seen that movie.

[00:11:15] Have you seen the movie her?

[00:11:17] No, I don't think I have.

[00:11:20] So it's Scarlett Johansson.

[00:11:21] And basically I think the precipice of the movie is technology takes over.

[00:11:28] It's Alexa type of thing and it's voiced by Scarlett Johansson.

[00:11:32] So chat GPT Sam Altman came out to her and asked, Hey, can we pay you

[00:11:37] to be the voice of this?

[00:11:39] And she said no.

[00:11:41] So they basically got someone with a very similar voice, got them to record.

[00:11:46] And obviously they leverage it for AI and Scarlett Johansson has come out.

[00:11:51] Not happy about this at all.

[00:11:55] But it's not her and it's not an AI representation of her.

[00:12:00] The AI has been trained by this voice actress, not Scarlett.

[00:12:04] So it's not her at all.

[00:12:06] Oh, which is interesting.

[00:12:10] That sounds exactly like her.

[00:12:12] Oh, she thinks it sounds exactly like her.

[00:12:14] Oh yeah.

[00:12:16] They sounds like identical to the voice that she had in this movie.

[00:12:21] Her.

[00:12:21] But anyways, what I'm curious about is in the future, how is this going

[00:12:25] to happen with like voice simulations and all of those, because if anyone's

[00:12:30] following the Drake Kendrick Lamar rap battle, which has been amazing.

[00:12:36] If you like rap, it reminds me of the nineties biggie against Tupac.

[00:12:41] But what Drake did is he wrote the lyrics, but leverage the AI voice

[00:12:46] of Tupac and Snoop Dogg and create a diss song at Kendrick Lamar.

[00:12:51] And it sounds exactly like them.

[00:12:53] So that was impressive.

[00:12:55] You haven't been following rap battle at all.

[00:12:58] I'm sorry.

[00:12:58] No, I figured you did.

[00:12:59] See, this is what I'm afraid of search.

[00:13:01] And now that I've given you permission to kick me off stage

[00:13:04] because I'm not staying current.

[00:13:07] Talking about staying current.

[00:13:09] Let's talk about zip recruiter came out with their first quarter

[00:13:13] revenue report and they're down 33% from the previous quarter.

[00:13:19] Shelley, I know you're a stockholder and I think it's worth like $10.

[00:13:23] I think you bought a 24.

[00:13:25] Oh, stop it.

[00:13:27] I have never disclosed to you what I bought it at.

[00:13:29] So just quit making shit up and read the rest of the article, please.

[00:13:36] About zip recruiter.

[00:13:37] There is some good news.

[00:13:39] I was reading some analysis on it and the thing is zip recruiter has

[00:13:44] produced plenty of free cashflow and they're possible, right?

[00:13:48] Like they're still very profitable.

[00:13:52] But I still think they're struggling like everyone else in the industry.

[00:13:56] And I was listening to another popular podcast in this industry and they're

[00:14:00] like, Ian Siegel needs to go.

[00:14:03] And I don't know if that's the case.

[00:14:05] I think everyone in this space is we're in a down period and I think he's

[00:14:10] done a really good job of building that company from scratch.

[00:14:13] So I don't know if Ian Siegel needs to go to bring it to the next level.

[00:14:18] I think those comments are made based on a single event.

[00:14:22] You need to trust that there's enough smart people in that organization

[00:14:26] because they do have a good product.

[00:14:29] Foundationally, they've got something unique.

[00:14:32] They're certainly not taking their foot off the

[00:14:34] gas in terms of marketing.

[00:14:37] They understand their audience and it's a long game.

[00:14:40] Like all the fanfare around, you know, decline over last quarter.

[00:14:45] We need to start thinking in terms of years, not quarters.

[00:14:48] The numbers are even bigger when you decline year over year.

[00:14:53] But in saying all of that, I agree.

[00:14:56] I think we're going to see a lot of the players in this space.

[00:14:59] They're going to see a decrease, but Zip Recruiter became

[00:15:02] really successful in a niche.

[00:15:04] They were SMB.

[00:15:06] They were very targeted in SMB and they did a really good job with

[00:15:09] SMB overall in getting that market.

[00:15:12] And I think it really started going sideways when they went

[00:15:15] enterprise and really focused on enterprise and they haven't been

[00:15:19] able to make almost any inroads in a time that companies are looking

[00:15:24] for an alternative to the big players, right?

[00:15:26] Like I still think there is time for Zip to pivot and try to figure out

[00:15:31] where their lane is and do it really well.

[00:15:33] There's still huge potential.

[00:15:34] I'm not sure if E&C goals should be the person, right?

[00:15:37] Maybe it does need a different viewpoint, different person coming

[00:15:41] in that sees it a little bit differently, but I don't know.

[00:15:45] He's done a lot, right?

[00:15:46] Like he built that company from scratch.

[00:15:48] So good on him.

[00:15:49] What's next, Shelley?

[00:15:50] In the news here in Canada, we have a fairly large retailer

[00:15:56] that's been under fire.

[00:15:57] So the Loblaws group of companies is enormous.

[00:16:00] They're grocery, but they also have a chain of drug stores.

[00:16:05] It's called Shoppers Drug Market, which in Canada is a big deal.

[00:16:10] They are essential for pharmacy and household goods, cosmetics, et cetera.

[00:16:16] And so there was one of their stores in Toronto posted a job for a volunteer

[00:16:25] to come work in the store, to fill shelves, to deal with customers.

[00:16:30] And to basically work as a volunteer.

[00:16:35] Really crappy timing because there are boycotts currently against them for their

[00:16:42] grocery side of the business and for a Shoppers Drug Market to post something

[00:16:47] like this, it quickly got taken down.

[00:16:50] But boy, it took off like fire.

[00:16:53] Like within two hours it was on the news, like the national news.

[00:16:57] It's in my opinion, a reflection of what happens when you hand the car keys

[00:17:04] to somebody who should only be riding a bike.

[00:17:12] This is a pharmacy owner, right?

[00:17:14] And you of all people should know, but it's a very unique business model for

[00:17:19] who owns the pharmacy and they run it like an entrepreneur and they can post a job.

[00:17:25] But they literally are pharmacists acting like recruiters.

[00:17:31] So that's what I mean.

[00:17:32] The brand is right across Canada, but this is like how one bad apple

[00:17:37] can spoil the whole bunch.

[00:17:39] Yeah, you're right.

[00:17:40] So I do know quite a bit about it because I recruited these types of roles.

[00:17:44] So they're called associate owners and Shoppers Drug Market is massive in Canada.

[00:17:49] Think about CVS, think about Walgreens.

[00:17:52] So associate owners, those stores are owned by pharmacists.

[00:17:57] And they don't have to buy in.

[00:17:58] It's a model where they have to buy equity as they go.

[00:18:01] But they're running it like a franchise.

[00:18:04] And I'll tell you, none of these people I ever recruited were really business

[00:18:07] people as like, you're a really good pharmacist, we'll help you

[00:18:11] with the business side of it.

[00:18:13] Now this gentleman named Emil Herba, who's the pharmacist owner here,

[00:18:17] he thought he had good intentions.

[00:18:20] His intention is I have a lot of new Canadians that are coming to me

[00:18:24] and asking like, how do I get Canadian experience?

[00:18:27] So I'm like, how will I do this?

[00:18:29] I'll create a volunteer position.

[00:18:31] You can come work.

[00:18:31] It's going to give you the Canadian experience.

[00:18:35] Exactly.

[00:18:35] How about hiring them?

[00:18:38] Do you know what?

[00:18:39] This was a whitewash.

[00:18:41] This was a total whitewash because Shoppers Drug Mart is so big.

[00:18:45] It was an honest mistake.

[00:18:47] It was doing it to help out new Canadians.

[00:18:50] Oh, bullshit.

[00:18:51] Shoppers Drug Mart came to him probably really quickly, like WTF, dude,

[00:18:56] what are you doing?

[00:18:57] Yeah.

[00:18:58] But I think he was naive thinking, hey, I'll get free labor from my store,

[00:19:03] which means more profit.

[00:19:05] And exactly.

[00:19:07] That's exactly what I'm saying, sir.

[00:19:09] He was thinking I'll give you volunteer experience.

[00:19:13] Yeah.

[00:19:14] What?

[00:19:14] No.

[00:19:15] If you are really concerned about helping new Canadians,

[00:19:19] then hire them.

[00:19:19] Give them a job.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:21] So I agree.

[00:19:22] I think his intentions were not as pure as he said.

[00:19:25] I think it's exactly what I just thought.

[00:19:27] I don't think so either.

[00:19:27] I think that's Shoppers Drug Mart corporate communications machine

[00:19:31] kicking into high gear.

[00:19:33] Oh yeah.

[00:19:35] Yes, definitely they sent him straight pretty quickly.

[00:19:38] So we're going to see some changes of how Shoppers Drug Mart post jobs

[00:19:42] in the future for sure.

[00:19:44] They're not going to give that control to any of these associate owners.

[00:19:47] He took the pen out of his hand.

[00:19:49] Yeah.

[00:19:49] Shelley, there was big news with a company that we've had on the podcast.

[00:19:53] We had a CEO, Anup Gupta of Seekout late last year.

[00:19:57] It was just announced that they had to lay off 30% of its workforce to

[00:20:02] reduce costs and focus on high impact initiatives.

[00:20:06] A couple of things I was really curious, because if you look at their

[00:20:09] cash burn, so basically for every dollar they're bringing in,

[00:20:12] they're burning $2, which not always concerning, but I think in this

[00:20:17] case as they're moving forward and we're in a down market, I think

[00:20:21] it's getting pretty concerning, especially the investors are wanting

[00:20:25] some type of profitability at this point.

[00:20:28] And I think I was really surprised last year, this was in 2022.

[00:20:32] We saw a bunch of unicorns in this space.

[00:20:35] We saw a deal become a billion dollar valuation.

[00:20:38] I think they're now valued at 14 billion and Seekout was valued

[00:20:43] at $1.2 billion.

[00:20:45] I'm like, one more $2 billion.

[00:20:47] You have like a hundred employees back then.

[00:20:50] We don't know what their revenue was.

[00:20:52] But I think like the reality of what a unicorn in this space two years

[00:20:57] ago to what it is now, like probably the valuation of this company is

[00:21:01] maybe half or even a quarter of that 1.2 billion and they're definitely

[00:21:06] competing in a really tough space, right?

[00:21:08] They're competing with LinkedIn.

[00:21:10] And we know some of the changes that LinkedIn has done recently as

[00:21:13] far as how much access they give public data to these providers.

[00:21:18] Shelly, are you surprised about this?

[00:21:21] Do you see this like just a lapse in there going to pick it up again

[00:21:26] and be the company we thought they were going to be?

[00:21:29] Well, first of all, let's get down to the basics of what Seekout does.

[00:21:35] And that is they have the ability to search different social sites

[00:21:40] when you are looking for specific talent.

[00:21:43] Like if you are looking for a certain type of engineer in a certain

[00:21:47] city, it may give you back potentially thousands of results.

[00:21:52] And so LinkedIn tightening what they're allowed to get from them

[00:21:57] resulted in a reduction of half or what were they paying to get the

[00:22:03] data off LinkedIn in order to provide their service?

[00:22:06] Right.

[00:22:07] What we don't know technically is what was the impact.

[00:22:11] Well, I think it had an impact because it's more with the public

[00:22:14] data that was available and that's tightened up.

[00:22:17] So just the amount of information they could provide on those candidates

[00:22:20] is tighter than it used to be.

[00:22:22] And I don't know in the backend what type of potential deal

[00:22:26] they have with LinkedIn, but I still think there's a ton of value for

[00:22:30] Seekout Shelly because the thing is LinkedIn has its limitations.

[00:22:34] We saw the demo last week at LinkedIn recruiter and whoa, it's amazing

[00:22:40] if you use it correctly, especially with what they just released.

[00:22:44] But you're not hitting.

[00:22:45] And I know this is part of LinkedIn's plan.

[00:22:48] Like it's still very much the white collar knowledge type

[00:22:50] workers that learn LinkedIn.

[00:22:52] For sure.

[00:22:52] As Seekout basically almost doubles the availability of candidates

[00:22:57] that you're recruiting, you can't do that with LinkedIn.

[00:22:59] So there's still a lot of value in the market and it was interesting.

[00:23:03] I spent a lot of time in Reddit threads to try to get a sense of

[00:23:07] what are people saying?

[00:23:08] Like, what is better?

[00:23:09] Seekout who's using LinkedIn recruiter, LinkedIn recruiter light.

[00:23:13] Hire easy and Seekout was definitely the winner when it came to a lot of

[00:23:19] those of what it can do.

[00:23:20] And again, I don't know what they were recruiting, but they are very

[00:23:24] well liked by recruiters that are using it.

[00:23:27] What was interesting this week and hire easy, which is very similar

[00:23:31] to Seekout, they launched a tool called the sourcing hub.

[00:23:35] And it was really interesting because Hey, we're going to start

[00:23:38] working with job boards plus all the other tools that we're

[00:23:41] leveraging right now, like Seekout.

[00:23:44] I'm like, okay, interesting.

[00:23:46] Then I looked at the job boards and the first one that came out is

[00:23:50] we partnered with monster to do this.

[00:23:52] It was like, ah, they also included resume library and CV library,

[00:23:57] which I'm a big fan of, but like how long has that been around?

[00:24:01] If hire easy would have come out and said, Hey, we have

[00:24:04] partnered we indeed, which indeed wouldn't do, but with the major

[00:24:09] job boards that have a lot of candidates.

[00:24:11] And I'm like, okay, this could be really competitive, but that's a dud to me.

[00:24:15] But please, if anyone from hire easy is listening, we've never had you in

[00:24:20] the show would love to talk about it.

[00:24:22] I think the story here, Shelley is a lot of companies in our space

[00:24:28] that got a lot of money are going to be in a tough time because

[00:24:32] the market has definitely slowed down.

[00:24:35] So we know the job board market has slowed down.

[00:24:39] And I would have thought this would be like the counterbalance.

[00:24:43] Because if you're not using job boards to get your jobs out in front of job

[00:24:48] seekers, the alternative is sourcing.

[00:24:51] And so tools like seek out and hire easy would be the logical investment.

[00:25:00] Would it not?

[00:25:01] So they should be experiencing an upswing when the job boards

[00:25:05] are experiencing a 30% drop.

[00:25:08] That's what surprised me.

[00:25:09] Well, you're making the assumption that the hiring levels are the same, right?

[00:25:14] Hiring levels have gone down, but in the normal time, absolutely.

[00:25:18] And I think it should be part of your strategy anyways.

[00:25:21] You should be doing some sourcing with whatever tools you can leverage.

[00:25:26] Do we want to jump into the tip of the week, Shelley?

[00:25:30] You bet.

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[00:26:05] Here's my tip of the week.

[00:26:06] Your company career page sucks and there is a reason to invest

[00:26:11] in your company career site.

[00:26:13] Um, from the book, talent acquisition, excellent from your friend

[00:26:18] in mind, Kevin Wheeler and boss von Hawthorne.

[00:26:21] I'm going to quote him because this is probably the best way to describe

[00:26:25] a career site is a window into your organization and most career sites

[00:26:30] are so poorly designed and do nothing to engage the candidate.

[00:26:34] So here's my tip.

[00:26:36] Consider why you have a career page in the first place.

[00:26:41] One, it's got to be part of the candidate journey and know where it is

[00:26:45] for information and influencing someone's decision to apply.

[00:26:49] The second is validation that you're even a legit company.

[00:26:53] That's this job that I found on a job board is actually somehow

[00:26:57] connected to a real company.

[00:26:59] And third, for candidates who are really serious, it's where they

[00:27:03] go to prep for their interview.

[00:27:05] So 2024 should be the year that your company career page gets a facelift.

[00:27:11] Very good advice.

[00:27:12] And don't put generic stock images placed.

[00:27:15] Yes.

[00:27:17] All right, well let's jump into the recruiting insights brought

[00:27:21] to you by our friends at Mitova.

[00:27:24] Shelley, are you tired of the same old outsourcing woes?

[00:27:28] Well, say hello to nearshoring.

[00:27:30] It's like outsourcing, but closer and it won't make you pull your hair out.

[00:27:34] Picture this top notch IT talent from Latin American.

[00:27:38] Many Latin American IT professionals have strong English language skills

[00:27:43] and even live in the same time zone.

[00:27:45] So no more midnight conference calls.

[00:27:47] Hallelujah.

[00:27:49] Plus Latin America's growing tech ecosystem, strong educational

[00:27:54] institutions, and a pool of skilled IT professionals make it the

[00:27:58] perfect region for recruiting talent.

[00:28:01] I have the perfect company that does this.

[00:28:03] The company's name is Mitova.

[00:28:05] They have local experts who handle everything from recruiting to HR support.

[00:28:10] So why settle for the same old outsourcing blues when you can have

[00:28:15] the nearshoring party with Mitova.

[00:28:18] Look them up at mitova.com and let's get the fiesta started.

[00:28:24] All right, Shelley, I've been wondering about this for a while

[00:28:26] and it happened quite a bit when I worked in the tech industry.

[00:28:29] It's the challenge that entrepreneurs have re-entering the workforce

[00:28:34] after running their own business.

[00:28:36] There's a recent article that talked about it pretty indefinitely.

[00:28:39] It said former business owners were 35% less likely to be invited for a job

[00:28:45] interview due to their unusual career and perceived impulsivity

[00:28:49] attributed to being an entrepreneur.

[00:28:52] The so-called entrepreneurship penalty effects, especially those trying to

[00:28:57] transition back into the traditional workforce.

[00:29:02] It's got to be the right culture.

[00:29:03] I don't think an entrepreneur should go work for the government.

[00:29:06] I don't think they should go work for Canada Post.

[00:29:08] I don't think they should go work in a largely bureaucratic company.

[00:29:13] But for a company that is looking for that innovation, that different

[00:29:17] thought process, quick execution, can wear many hats.

[00:29:23] Yeah, you should definitely look at it and be like, well, they're

[00:29:25] only going to stay two years.

[00:29:26] Guess what?

[00:29:27] Most people only stay two years in jobs anyway.

[00:29:31] So why not take advantage of the skillset that these folks have

[00:29:35] learned in their journey?

[00:29:37] Like you've been an entrepreneur for 10 years now.

[00:29:39] Would you want to hire an ex-entrepreneur?

[00:29:43] I just did.

[00:29:43] I would, but I will say from my own experience, I knew after I left the

[00:29:48] corporate world, your first two years of starting your own company is agony.

[00:29:53] Agony.

[00:29:54] You're looking hardly any money.

[00:29:56] It's a lot of work.

[00:29:57] You make a lot of mistakes and there's a window of time where you can skate

[00:30:02] your way around it.

[00:30:04] If you wanted to go back to the corporate world, there's an expiry date.

[00:30:08] So you have to be ready to go back to the corporate world.

[00:30:10] Like after about year three, nobody's going to believe you anymore.

[00:30:15] It's no longer a stop gap.

[00:30:17] You are an entrepreneur and even trying to get back into the corporate world.

[00:30:23] You're really going to struggle.

[00:30:25] And so this article did in fact say that corporate recruiters show 60% less

[00:30:32] interest in resumes of former business owners.

[00:30:35] I agree.

[00:30:36] I agree because I remember thinking there's no going back for me personally.

[00:30:41] You got hit a point.

[00:30:42] You're like, this is who I am for the rest of my career.

[00:30:46] This is it.

[00:30:46] I am never ever getting back together with my corporate life.

[00:30:52] Right?

[00:30:53] Ever.

[00:30:55] I have a question on what your thoughts are around HR.

[00:30:59] I think you're right.

[00:31:01] I have a question on what your thoughts are around HR folks or recruiters.

[00:31:07] They're so focused on a linear career path where they get sidetracked me like,

[00:31:12] what do you mean you didn't work for two years and you travel Europe or you

[00:31:17] started your own business for a year and a half, it really like puts them off

[00:31:22] their trail.

[00:31:22] And I don't know if this is more an HR challenge or is it recruiters?

[00:31:27] Are they the same way?

[00:31:29] It is search.

[00:31:30] Listen, this is I call it generational bias.

[00:31:34] I will never forget what an HR person told me early in my career.

[00:31:39] She said to me, if you see a two year gap, you first assume that they were

[00:31:44] in prison for drug smuggling.

[00:31:49] Seriously.

[00:31:50] And so HR people are the worst people to train recruiters because they

[00:31:55] will always want to protect the company from risk.

[00:31:59] And so what is the risk?

[00:32:01] The risk is there's a two year gap.

[00:32:03] It's unexplainable.

[00:32:04] If you worked in HR surge, like certainly after 10, 15 years, you

[00:32:09] become really suspicious of people because you have seen people do the

[00:32:13] worst of the worst, right?

[00:32:15] Because you got to clean up all of the mess in the wake of disaster that

[00:32:21] this person caused.

[00:32:22] So it is true that being an entrepreneur, there will come a point where you

[00:32:27] can never go back.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] So this study finds that 35% were less likely to be invited.

[00:32:35] I think the number is probably closer to 90%.

[00:32:39] I know very, very few.

[00:32:42] Unless of course it was just like this 18 month, you tried to do a

[00:32:45] startup for recyclable containers or something, right?

[00:32:50] And it just didn't get off the ground.

[00:32:52] So one of the things that I noticed when we're at LinkedIn's headquarter

[00:32:55] and meeting a lot of LinkedIn employees, there was one common team

[00:32:59] and this is their head office.

[00:33:01] Can you guess what it was Shelly?

[00:33:03] MBAs.

[00:33:05] No.

[00:33:05] All MBAs.

[00:33:07] Well maybe, but there was another common theme that I saw.

[00:33:11] What?

[00:33:11] They were entrepreneurs that LinkedIn acquired their company and that's

[00:33:16] why they work at LinkedIn.

[00:33:17] I met at least 10, pretty much everyone we talked to, right?

[00:33:22] Like we sat with Manish for lunch.

[00:33:25] He came to LinkedIn exactly that way.

[00:33:27] The gentleman from Japan that was in our group, Harry, that did a great

[00:33:33] presentation on their products.

[00:33:36] He was an entrepreneur that got acquired by LinkedIn.

[00:33:39] So I think that was a very common thing.

[00:33:41] High tech companies like that look at entrepreneurs as a, first of all,

[00:33:45] let me acquire your company and then come work for me.

[00:33:48] Right?

[00:33:48] It's a good strategy.

[00:33:49] Shelly, what's our last recruiting insight of the week?

[00:33:55] Dell computers, a huge employer in the U S interestingly enough, they

[00:34:00] had even prior to COVID had a reputation for having this type of

[00:34:05] company culture where you were trusted, you were valued.

[00:34:10] And what's interesting is they have just recently implemented a color

[00:34:17] code employees based on your badge swipes and virtual private network

[00:34:23] monitoring where they will now be assigned one of four color

[00:34:30] codes based on their attendance.

[00:34:32] So their policy, their attendance requirement is that hybrid employees

[00:34:36] must be on site at least 39 days per quarter, about three days per week.

[00:34:41] And it's so contradictory to what built the company, to what built Dell

[00:34:48] to begin with was this culture of trust and leadership and we can work

[00:34:53] anywhere and tapping on talent anywhere.

[00:34:55] And they previously supported remote work flexibility and the CEO, Michael

[00:35:02] Dell himself advocated for it and criticized in office mandates.

[00:35:07] So it appears like they're having a personality crisis here.

[00:35:11] All of a sudden they've become this, we're going to red flag you if

[00:35:16] you're limiting your onsite presence.

[00:35:18] My God, could you imagine employees must be so confused.

[00:35:22] So Shelly, you know, I'm a big advocate of remote working and I was

[00:35:27] pretty shocked when a lot of companies were advocating for people

[00:35:30] to come back into the office and this was going to become the normal.

[00:35:35] But I think there's a perspective that I want to share.

[00:35:37] So my favorite podcast, the one that I listen all the time is

[00:35:41] called the All In Podcast, right?

[00:35:43] It's basically four guys that are billionaires, mostly from Silicon

[00:35:49] Valley, but they're really, really bright and it's interesting

[00:35:53] to get their perspective.

[00:35:54] So I'm going to share J Cal explaining what happens here.

[00:35:58] And maybe it makes sense.

[00:36:02] Remember a couple of years ago during peak Zerp, everybody was doing these day

[00:36:06] in the life of a tech worker and they would show you what it's like to work

[00:36:10] at LinkedIn or Microsoft or Google.

[00:36:12] These companies historically provided perks to their employees because they

[00:36:17] recognize that their employees were working on important things and they

[00:36:20] were sacrificing, they were working 10, 11, 12 hours a day coming in on

[00:36:24] the weekend.

[00:36:24] If you have an employee who is that dedicated, the least you can do is buy

[00:36:28] them lunch or dinner.

[00:36:29] Another generation came into these companies and cluelessly thought that

[00:36:32] they were entitled to these perks simply for having a business card

[00:36:36] that had the name Google on it.

[00:36:38] They showed that they were overpaid and underworked.

[00:36:41] They poked the bear.

[00:36:42] It infuriated management at these companies.

[00:36:45] They realized that they had created a culture of entitlement.

[00:36:48] And what happened is all those people got laid off, hard problems,

[00:36:52] created strong team members at these companies and those strong team

[00:36:55] members solved those problems and created wildly profitable companies.

[00:36:59] Those wild profits created massive entitlement.

[00:37:02] And now with the layoffs, we're back to strong team members solving important

[00:37:06] problems in the world and the cycle starts anew.

[00:37:09] Wow.

[00:37:11] Interesting.

[00:37:11] So I think that perspective really applies to working from home because

[00:37:17] if you go on TikTok and look at working from home, like there is so many

[00:37:22] examples of new people in the workforce, like working from the pool.

[00:37:26] And are they really working?

[00:37:28] So I think they poked the bear and the bears are the CEOs of these

[00:37:34] companies and like, screw this.

[00:37:37] This is bullshit.

[00:37:38] You're coming back in the office.

[00:37:39] You think you can work from your pool?

[00:37:42] It doesn't work like that.

[00:37:44] And we can agree or disagree, but the CEOs of major companies are

[00:37:48] seeing it and they're feeling they're getting taken advantage of me.

[00:37:52] Like the only way we can control this or secure this is having

[00:37:56] people come in the office.

[00:37:58] What's your thoughts on that, Shelley?

[00:38:00] Now that you put it that way, you know, it's interesting because

[00:38:02] we have always been huge advocates saying that the executives just

[00:38:06] weren't listening to their people.

[00:38:09] And I have to admit those search having now seen firsthand and even

[00:38:13] one of the LinkedIn employees said this to me, having all of these

[00:38:17] amenities is table stakes.

[00:38:19] Like here in Canada, it's like saying, of course we have healthcare.

[00:38:23] That to us is table stakes.

[00:38:26] So in their world, if you're going to be working in tech, everybody gets this.

[00:38:30] It is by no means special treatment.

[00:38:33] Interesting perspective on the All In podcast.

[00:38:39] Well, I think he nailed it in a couple of different places where maybe

[00:38:44] Gen Z screwed up a little bit by being so blatant about it, but in all

[00:38:48] fairness to them, I don't think they understand what work culture was

[00:38:53] in the past and what we grew up and the expectations, right?

[00:38:57] There is a lot of entitlement for companies working in the tech sector

[00:39:01] because I'll tell you, LinkedIn's office is amazing.

[00:39:04] And you do not see that everywhere, but we saw a glimpse of it being

[00:39:08] in the heyday of oil and gas and working in downtown Calgary, the

[00:39:12] type of perks and everything that was afforded to people working there.

[00:39:16] It was pretty impressive.

[00:39:18] But then when you start having all those perks and all this free time and

[00:39:22] your flouting videos of people coming in, going for copy four times during

[00:39:27] the day, and then going out working on the patio, going home early.

[00:39:32] Are you really working?

[00:39:33] Are you really focused?

[00:39:34] Are you available for calls?

[00:39:36] I think the bear has been poked and they're like, no, we have the power.

[00:39:41] We have the money.

[00:39:43] So you're coming back because you're embarrassing us.

[00:39:47] And right or wrong, but that's how CEOs are feeling.

[00:39:50] Hence the reason that it's going this way and it sucks.

[00:39:53] It really sucks because how many people that you know work really hard at

[00:39:58] home and we're actually way more efficient and that's been taken away

[00:40:03] for a lot of people for many reasons, but I think that's one of the reasons.

[00:40:09] On that note, Shelly, the next time anyone sees you, you're going to be sick.

[00:40:15] So happy birthday, Shelly.

[00:40:17] Thank you.

[00:40:18] I would not want another partner in business and this podcast, and I'm

[00:40:24] going to make sure that you have your senior citizen card.

[00:40:26] So we're going to get discounts when we go for lunch and dinner.

[00:40:30] I get a senior.

[00:40:34] All right.

[00:40:34] Thank you, Serge.

[00:40:36] Thank you.

[00:40:37] We'll see you soon.

[00:40:38] Au revoir.

[00:40:39] Shelly, let's face it.

[00:40:41] Texting candidates is the easiest way to hire quicker today, but your cell

[00:40:50] phone doesn't connect to your ATS.

[00:40:51] You're sharing your personal number with strangers.

[00:40:54] So it's pretty scary, right?

[00:40:55] Shelly and it's not even legally compliant.

[00:40:59] This is where our friends at Rectex come in.

[00:41:01] They've created simple yet powerful text recruiting software

[00:41:05] that works with your ATS.

[00:41:06] Plus it's a great way to get your personal number.

[00:41:10] So you can get your personal number with your ATS.

[00:41:13] Plus it's designed by recruiters for recruiters.

[00:41:17] So, you know, it works to learn more and book a demo.

[00:41:21] Visit www R E C T X T dot com.

[00:41:26] Mention the recruitment flex and get 10% off annual plans.

[00:41:30] Welcome change agents to your go-to place for stories that ignite your

[00:41:34] spirit, fuel your purpose and connect us all.

[00:41:37] The power of the human spirit, it's boundless resilience and the

[00:41:41] inspiration it brings to our lives.

[00:41:43] On the driving change podcast, we'll journey together through the

[00:41:47] extraordinary yet very relatable experiences of some of the most

[00:41:51] amazing people on earth.

[00:41:52] Our mission at through these stories, we might just spark change within

[00:41:57] you and awaken a new found motivation to harness your unique gifts to make

[00:42:02] a real difference in the world.

[00:42:04] So get ready to be inspired and join us on this incredible adventure.

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